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- [00:00]
A
It's full fledged fall out there. It's sweater season and I'm thrilled about it because that means we went on a new Quint's shopping spree.
- [00:08]
B
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- [00:24]
A
To upgrade your closet. The the perfect ingredients for a wardrobe that's affordable, easy to maintain and always in style. Just recently I got Kevin two lovely looking new quince sweaters. One is a black Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater. The other is a true navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. I think he looks rather handsome in them and I think he's adorable.
- [00:47]
B
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- [01:06]
A
Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinns.com msheet we love cornbread Hemp's CBD Gummies We've had a busy year in terms of writing and promoting our crime nonfiction book and continuing to produce the podcast. At the same time. Cornbread Hemp Gummies have helped us with sleep, stress, aches and more.
- [01:45]
B
Cornbread Hemp CBD Gummies help us manage eggs everything. We've been enjoying their berry CBD gummies which taste so good and their sleep CBD gummies as well as their CBD lotion. What we love about Cornbread Hemp is that these products work with your body, not against it. We've been really impressed by the results.
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A
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B
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- [02:54]
A
Murder sheet listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code MSHEET at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com MSHEET and use code msheet.
- [03:06]
C
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- [03:39]
A
This episode includes discussion of murder, violence and rape, including the rape of a child. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going all around. We're going to Canada, I think British Columbia. Going to Oklahoma, Washington, New Jersey and Australia. Cane train going to the Chunnel tonight.
- [04:05]
B
That sounds a little dirty, but let's.
- [04:08]
A
You know what? It's your fault. And I blame you for everything because you say stupid stuff on the show.
- [04:13]
B
No, no.
- [04:14]
A
And then people come up to us and say it too, like, oh, the cane train. I'm like, you know why? Why? I'm. I'm always shocked when we meet people. I love meeting our listeners, but they come up to me and they say, ah, the cane train. And I say, how does. How does anyone know about this? And I forget. You're just talking about it on the show all the time.
- [04:31]
B
Yeah. You think that you're just talking to me?
- [04:33]
A
Yeah. I don't know about any.
- [04:36]
B
And you've forgotten that we have the dear listeners out there.
- [04:40]
A
Sorry, guys. I sometimes forget. I think I'm just in my house rambling. I have a rude awakening.
- [04:47]
B
You're a very confused young lady.
- [04:49]
A
Yeah, well, you're a very confused man based on all the weird stuff you say. So shall we go?
- [04:54]
B
Sure.
- [04:55]
A
Should we embark? My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:59]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [05:02]
A
And this is the murder sheet We're.
- [05:04]
B
A true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [05:10]
A
We're the murder sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Casinos and conspiracies, Sam.
- [06:02]
B
So correct me if I'm wrong, but our travels today begin in the great state of Oklahoma, which is known as the Sooner State.
- [06:13]
A
It is the Sooner State, yes.
- [06:15]
B
It's a pretty cool nickname.
- [06:16]
A
It's a great nickname.
- [06:17]
B
Yeah.
- [06:19]
A
Proceed.
- [06:22]
B
It's the Empire State of the West.
- [06:25]
A
No, no, we're not doing that again. Sorry, Georgia. We're not doing that again.
- [06:30]
B
Source for this is News 9. This actually has to do with a murder that happened all the way back in 1970. A man named Hubert Wilkinson is now serving three life terms for murdering Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Howard Crumley. He was recently up for commutation, and Mr. Crumley still does not accept his guilt. He recently gave an interview.
- [07:05]
A
You say Wilkerson doesn't accept his guilt?
- [07:08]
B
Yes.
- [07:08]
A
Pardon me, Not Crumley. Crumley died.
- [07:10]
B
Yes. Thank you for that correction. Mr. Wilkinson still does not accept his guilt. He recently gave an interview to the author of a book maintaining that the whole thing was a big conspiracy. And so, not surprisingly, the family of Trooper Wilkinson. Pardon me, the family of Trooper Crumley has fought against the commutation, and they won.
- [07:38]
A
Good.
- [07:39]
B
His sentence was not commuted. He's going to remain incarcerated. This just jumped out at me because I think one thing that a board likes to look at in instances like this is, is the person before us, has he accepted his guilt? Is he ready to go back into society? And when instead of accepting your guilt, you are positing ridiculous conspiracies, that's not really a good sign that you're ready to get back into society. And obviously it made me think of Temujin Kinzu.
- [08:18]
A
So this guy looking at him, he didn't. He and his brother, like two psychos, didn't just murder this trooper who was the father of four of three sons. He had a wife and three sons. They kill him. They also kidnap a couple, traumatize them. They. They let the male go and then make the woman drive them around. And this guy's brother dies by suicide, and he forces this woman to bring him to the hospital, and. And that's when it unravels and he's arrested. So here. Here's a question. So they do all this and, you know, have no respect for these people, murder a police officer who's doing his job and force. Force this woman to drive around, kidnap two people where's the conspiracy? Like, what, what is he saying? Like, you know, like, where, where does this come in? Where? Oh, no, I didn't do it. I. What is he just blaming his brother because brother's dead?
- [09:20]
B
I, I think when you start asking questions like that, these conspiracies that these people posit, they never make sense.
- [09:29]
A
I think you have to ask questions because I think as a society, people have become more susceptible to buying this crap. I mean, I think that's just. And, and frankly, you know, okay, yeah, so he's old now, and they're saying, okay, let him out. Whatever he's saying, it sounds like he was kind of blaming his brother from, from some of these articles and, and saying, like, oh, I have a mostly clean disciplinary record. And, you know, my, my brother was so high on drugs that day, you know, Then why didn't you, like, I don't know, like, do something about it then? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, it just sounds like nonsense. But people talk about, like, oh, no, you know, like, our, our, our discipline, like our justice system is just about, like, punishing people for the wrong thing they did. It's not about rehabilitation. In some cases, I think this should be about rehabilitation. In other cases, I don't care. If it's about punishment, good. If that gives Trooper Crumley's family some, some peace, good. It should be about punishment. I don't see why that's a bad thing. I really don't. People can act like, oh, that's so bloodthirsty, and that's not evolved. I don't, I don't care. People like this, I mean, people like Wilkinson, you've, like, wasted your chance at life. I don't feel like he deserves a new shot. Doesn't sound like he's grown at all. So why the heck should we be, like, weeping for him when, you know this, this man is dead for doing his job, and all these people are traumatized by this man's actions. I don't care if they continue to punish him. I think that's correct. I think at some point when we just go so down the rehabilitation, you know, everyone's innocent. Everyone needs to be re. Rehabilitated. We get to a point where it's like, we're actually just saying that people's lives don't matter because, you know, you can kill someone in a. Basically is like, it was just this horrible childhood, you know? I mean, like, at some point it goes too far. So I'm glad they kept him in. That seems appropriate. What do you think?
- [11:22]
B
I already told you, it reminded me of temu. I, I think when a. A person up for commutation or parole start saying, oh, I didn't really do it. It was all just a big conspiracy, that's not what the parole board. That's not what the parole board wants to hear. I don't think it's a very compelling argument. I think it's pretty ridiculous and that's why I highlighted it.
- [11:44]
A
So now are we going to New Jersey?
- [11:47]
B
Up to you. You're the conductor for the next stop.
- [11:50]
A
We're the going to New Jersey. And this is a case where it's not really clear if a crime happened. I would actually posit that a crime did not happen. But it's still a very dire situation and we need answers. So this involves, and thanks to the listener who suggested this, this involves a young man named Kevin Collins Jr. He's 21 years old. And recently on February 27, 2025. So, you know, a couple months ago, he was driving around in Piles Grove, New Jersey, near apparently the state police barracks in Salem county. And he called 911 to say he was being harassed. So he. So he has a couple of interactions with New Jersey State Police troopers that day. He is driving very erratically, you know, so he's, he's pulled over at some point and he has an act of warrant for not having his vehicle registration during a previous stop. He gets a new court date. Police also call medical responders. Collins gets evaluated and it's determined he's okay to be released from the police station. So they release him. Then he leaves and he calls police saying he's being harassed. And they realize, oh, it's the same guy. So they take him to the hospital, they take him to inspire a medical center. And he's taken from Alloway to there. And so he's, you know, I guess he's, he's brought in, he's dressed in a hospital gown and whatnot. But around 4pm and this is in Mannington, New Jersey. So at some at 4pm he actually sneaks out of the hospital and he's only wearing this hospital gown. He is picked up on a nearby trail camera about an hour after he disappeared. At that point, his arms are. He's holding his arms above his head. He has no clothes on. His hospital gown is later found near railroad tracks behind the Mannington Mills flooring plant, which is very close to the hospital. And there were air searches, there were ground searches, and those turned up nothing. Police family of this young man, notably Tanisha hall, who's his mother, feel like the police gave up too quickly on the searches and they're very upset about that. The New Jersey State Police say the investigation is ongoing, but there's no new information. And just for anyone who's, you know, in the area. Collins is African American. He's 5ft 5. He's 5 foot 5, 115 pounds, kind of a smaller guy. And his pictures in the links we're going to include in our show notes if anyone has any information, if they saw anything. The, the contact number is 856-769-0775 or 609-882-2000, extension 25-5-4. I'll include those numbers in our show notes too. So it's very, very sad. It's a, it's a very sad situation. It sounds like this man was having some kind of mental health episode and left. The odds of him just running into someone who did him harm like so quickly after he leaves seems unlikely. What I think we're looking at here is either he died because of like exposure to the elements and just having this crisis, or he got into some sort of accident or, or he. The more positive thing would be if he somehow was able to get clothes back on and sort of slip into a homeless population somewhere and is just needs to be found in that situation. But either way, it's really depressing and sad. And I'm not, I don't know enough about this situation at Inspira to criticize the hospital necessarily. Like, I don't know if this was just, you know, lack security or if there's only so much they can do in terms of keep keeping people in. But I mean, there needs to be like secure facilities for people in active mental health crises. I mean, that, that's pretty clear. And they need to be very accessible and very nice and very well funded. And it just seems like there's a lot of political will of the people to have those resources for people who need them. But there doesn't seem to be like any sort of, you know, they're really expensive. So I think we just don't see that being prioritized by our leaders, which I think is disgraceful because it. Kevin Collins Jr. Did not deserve to be out in the cold having a crisis. You know, this is not his fault that he's having a mental health crisis. And instead of getting the support he needed, the system just allowed him to disappear off into the night. And that's horrifying for his family. And my heart goes out to them. So I hope they can find Kevin.
- [16:46]
B
I do too. Thanks for highlighting that. So I'm doing the next two stops and my first stop that I'm going to do is in the great state of Washington, which is known as the Evergreen State, also known as the Empire State of the Northwest. And my source for this is K A T U and this involves a woman named Raylan Marie Benzie, 34 year old woman. She told a woman, she told another woman that one of her plans for this particular evening, I guess she wanted to go and meet wealthy men, seduce them and then rob and steal from them.
- [17:40]
A
Jesus.
- [17:41]
B
Well, I mean, at least she's honest. We are busy, busy, busy. Between producing multiple episodes of the Murder Sheet each week and doing talks and signings for our new book, we strive to make time for chores and house cleaning every single day. Got to maintain those habits, but sometimes it just adds to our sense of being overwhelmed.
- [18:01]
A
That's why our terrific new sponsor, Homaglo is such a game changer. This top rated home service platform will meet you where you are to help you get your space clean and tidy. You can book cleaners on your schedule. You'll be checking tasks off your list and boosting your own peace of mind. With Homaglo, you can opt for a quick clean or book something well in advance. If you're looking for even more affordable options, you can go for their Forever Clean membership. You'll save $30 an hour on all future cleanings.
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B
The process is so simple. You go on their website. You pick a date, time and duration of service. Then you match with a cleaner. All of their cleaners go through a certification process so you know you're getting the best.
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- [19:31]
B
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A
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- [20:22]
B
We've used SimpliSafe for years. As true crime podcasters, we know all too well how important and life saving a home security system can be. We want to feel protected all the time because we know all the scary stories and we trust SimpliSafe to prevent those kinds of things from happening to us.
- [20:41]
A
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- [21:01]
B
So she goes to a casino, the Alani Casino, where she encounters a 38 year old man. The only name on this man's driver's license is Arsalan. So I don't know if that's his first name or his last name or maybe it's just his only name. That's the name on his driver's license. She meets him and then there is some security footage of the two of them going into his hotel room. They were in there for about an hour. She comes out by herself and then she takes another man in there again about two hours later and Mr. Arsalan is dead in there.
- [21:48]
A
Oh my God.
- [21:50]
B
And it turns out that her scheme was that she was going to put some sort of date rape drug in something he was consuming so he would pass out and she could rob him. But she didn't have it. She'd forgotten it. You know, darn the luck. And so instead she puts in fentanyl and it kills him. And she says, though she has a number of stories One of her stories is that he won $1,200 at the casino that night, and he had offered to give it all to her in exchange for Sachs. No idea if there's any truth in that, but she did kill him. And she even sent text messages to someone about it writing, quote, I panicked. Did something dumb. I could go away for a very long time. So she is facing charges in this affair, and she currently has bail of, I believe, $10 million.
- [22:59]
A
I mean, what a nightmare of a person doing that to somebody.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, And I think it's important for gentlemen who are in locations like casinos or who are in places where there's a big party atmosphere to be aware that some of the women who may be coming on to you may be planning something like this. I think we've seen similar stories to this taking place in other places. Wasn't there something similar at the Super Bowl?
- [23:33]
A
Adon Manzano was killed in some sort of drugging incident, and a woman named Danette Colbert was booked on that, and there was an accomplice, Ricky White. So, you know, the idea is like, someone's drugged in order to be robbed during some sort of sex work encounter. And. And that was really tragic with Adon Manzano because it was like, I think he had just lost his wife or something, so it's like his kids were orphaned, you know, like. Yeah, illicit. Illicit sex work. We often think of, I think, the sex workers being the victims of a crime, the victims of some sort of person coming in and posing as a john and then hurting them or killing them or whatever happening. But the reverse can also be true where they're going to be targeting someone who's. Who's interacting them for a robbery. And it's often with drugs and with fentanyl, which it sounds like was possibly in play here, right?
- [24:30]
B
Yes.
- [24:31]
A
With fentanyl. Fentanyl is so dangerous. It's not. You can never do fentanyl before and do it once and die. Like. Like. And also, it's so. I mean, these people aren't chemists, believe it or not. So, like, if they put too much in that could kill you. You could stop breathing. So, like, yeah, I think some of these women are predators and they're gonna. They're gonna try to do crimes to. To the person who, you know, is either interested in procuring their services or whatever. So, yeah, I think people should be careful. And men sometimes. I don't know, Kevin, if you have this, but, like, I think men sometimes feel a little more invulnerable, like, like, oh, don't worry. Like, I can handle myself. I'm a guy. Like, no one's gonna attack me. And it's like, first of all, do you feel that way? Because I think women often report feeling like they're almost. We're almost like, feel like prey. Sometimes in society, it's like we have to acknowledge, like, okay, Ted Bundy's probably not gonna attack me, but, like, maybe he will.
- [25:32]
B
At least in my case. I don't think it's so much that I, as a man, tend to feel invulnerable. It's just that I, as a man don't live thinking about the possible risks and dangers as much as perhaps a young woman might. And so, because it's just not top of mind. And so I'm not fully cognizant of possible risks. And certainly in a situation like this where I imagine a man's judgment might also be impaired, I'm speculating by the use of alcohol and by the excitement.
- [26:07]
A
About possibly getting sex.
- [26:09]
B
Yes. And also, men are very interested in sex, and that can also cloud your judgment. You can also be excited, oh, I just won some money. I'm in a fun place. This woman is interested in me.
- [26:20]
A
And, like, you don't think I'm going to be the victim of a crime in that situation. You think you're. You're doing well, and it's a great night for you. And it's just. It's important for men to be aware that sometimes people see you as the prey and you as the target and you as the mark. And. And that's, you know, I mean, one thing I always kind of am. If you watch just True Crime, you would think that all the victims were women. And it's actually, men are much more likely to be victims of homicide. So it's just something to be aware of. And if you're out with your buddies or something at a casino, just. Just be aware of stories like this, because it could. It can happen. And there doesn't even have to be the intent on the part of these people to kill somebody. You know, they might just be trying to drug somebody. But the thing is, again, they're not chemists. They're not anesthesiologists. They. I mean, they have no business, you know, poisoning people with fentanyl because it could easily kill you. So very, very sad that this man lost his life in this way. It's just. It's sad to think about someone possibly having a really good night at a casino and having fun, and then Just losing their life because of someone else's greed and callousness. I mean, this woman, some of the things she's quoted as saying in this article are so callous. And it's like she doesn't even see this victim almost as a person. She just seem. Sees him as a means to getting money for herself. Yeah.
- [27:37]
B
And I also think it's worth remembering, obviously, this instance ended in tragedy. The case in New Orleans at the super bowl also ended in tragedy. I suspect a lot of these instances don't end in tragedy. They just end with robbery. And it must be quite likely to be an underreported crime, because I imagine a lot of men in this situation may be too embarrassed to call the police.
- [28:04]
A
Yeah, they may not want anyone to know that they were trying to pay for sex and. Yeah, they might just kind of get. Get out of there. Yeah, yeah, it's. You know, we've talked about this, you know, about, like, the, you know, legalization of sex work, and there's controversies and there's downsides to that and there's upsides to that, but certainly anything that goes on in the shadows is going to be a lot riskier for everyone involved. You know, maybe some different types of risks if it becomes legalized and not properly regulated. But certainly something where in this situation, as you said, there can be crimes going on and no one reports it. No one reports it. And then finally, you know, this. This predator is kind of doing it so often makes a mistake with how much fentanyl they put in, someone dies, and it's like, maybe that could have been stopped earlier.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah. I think it might be more safe for everyone involved if sex work became legalized in some capacity.
- [29:04]
A
Yeah, it's. It's an interesting conversation. I can understand where both sides are coming from with people who would be against that, when people who'd be for it. I don't know if I have a hard opinion either way. It's just, you know, it is. It is something to note in these situations. All right, we going to Canada. We're going abroad.
- [29:20]
B
Well, is Canada abroad? Because it's connected to us?
- [29:23]
A
Well, I mean, it's a different country. So what?
- [29:26]
B
Isn't abroad like across the seas?
- [29:29]
A
Oh, my God, you're so semantic today.
- [29:31]
B
Well, I think it's very important you forget that it's not just us. We're also talking to the listeners.
- [29:36]
A
What?
- [29:36]
B
And so I would.
- [29:37]
A
Are people eavesdropping on us right now? How dare they?
- [29:40]
B
See you keep forgetting this. I just want to make sure we're quite accurate.
- [29:43]
A
Well, I think abroad just means in a different country than where we live. So I don't think it means like, I don't think you have to have like, Cs.
- [29:52]
B
Okay, so. So if, if I like, if I'm in like Detroit and I go across to Canada, I can just say, anya, I'm going abroad. I'm going abroad.
- [30:04]
A
I'm a world traveler.
- [30:07]
B
To me, that's. That sounds a little bit ridiculous, but.
- [30:09]
A
Well, I think it's just what the word means, so.
- [30:12]
B
Okay, I'll take your word on that because I know your professor language.
- [30:16]
A
I am. Why are you saying these things?
- [30:20]
B
Well, you're wearing your professor's hat.
- [30:22]
A
I'm not wearing a professor's hat. I'm not. I'll go wear a beret for you, though. I know you enjoy that. Just give me. Give me a second.
- [30:29]
B
Okay, she's going to go get her beret. Let's see if Anya wearing the beret has an impact on the energy of the program. I know Anya seems a lot brighter. She's more bushy tailed.
- [30:45]
A
What if I came back? What if I came back and then like, barely talked the rest of the time? It was like, really morose. I remember, like, I think. I think she should stop wearing that.
- [30:59]
B
No. Everybody loves beret Anya. And as a reminder, you can get this beret from Quince and then you can become Beret your name.
- [31:08]
A
You can't go come beret on you. It's already taken.
- [31:11]
B
That's right. There's only one. Unless you're a listener whose name is also Anya and you buy a beret.
- [31:17]
A
Yes. Oh, it be cool if there's some anas listening, but. All right, let's. Let's move along.
- [31:23]
B
So we're going to British Columbia abroad, which is in Canada, sailing the seas to get there. And it's known as Canada's Empire Province.
- [31:34]
A
No, it's not. Do you have to go to the through the Chunnel of the west to get there?
- [31:41]
B
My. My source for this channel. What's that?
- [31:44]
A
Oh, my God. I'm the worst thing you ever did on this program.
- [31:47]
B
My source for this is the National Post, and this is a story involving people on social media, so.
- [31:57]
A
Oh, that's good. That always ends well.
- [32:00]
B
So a woman named Qin Shen was in some sort of an online dispute with a woman named Jing Lu. They exchanged lots of harsh words, had a feud. It ended up in court. And at one of the court appearances, Qin Shin stabs Jinglu. Jing Lu survives at the court appearance.
- [32:27]
A
Yes. What? Okay, that's horrible.
- [32:33]
B
Yes. And she. She prepared for it by arming herself with a knife and a hammer. And they were waiting for the judge to appear when she attacked this other woman from behind with a hammer and she stabbed her. And she was even wearing, like, dark clothing, or rather she was wearing red to, like, disguise the red blood stains. And so the reason why you tend to highlight when a person makes these kinds of preparations, it shows some form of rational thought.
- [33:15]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [33:15]
B
The person says, oh, if I stab this person, there's going to be blood. I don't want to be seen with blood because that could get me in trouble, so I'm going to take this step. So it shows some sort of awareness that what they're doing is wrong and some sort of awareness of the consequences of those acts. Does that make sense?
- [33:34]
A
It does. And it also just makes me question with Canada. I mean, I feel like in the United States at this point, even smaller courthouses in, like, rural counties have, you know, metal detectors and things like that. So I guess. I don't know, like, I wonder how this even happened.
- [33:53]
B
Yeah, that's a good question.
- [33:55]
A
I mean, and it's possible that Canada has, you know, lower crime than the United States. And it's just that this kind of stuff maybe isn't as common. So it's like something that they're, you know, not as. As big on doing. But. Yeah, it's kind of alarming to hear about something like this happening in a courthouse.
- [34:11]
B
I'm not going to get into specifics, obviously, but sometimes when we go to court, we have to go through a very rigorous security process. There's other courthouses we've been in. We can just walk right in.
- [34:23]
A
Really? Yes. Like, which.
- [34:25]
B
Okay, I just said I'm not gonna say it.
- [34:29]
A
Plotting a heist? Yeah. No. Okay. I. Yeah, I feel. I just feel like everyone we go into, it's more rigorous. I remember, like, at the Delphi trial, do you remember this? Every time I would go in my. I wore these, like, boots, right?
- [34:42]
B
Yeah.
- [34:43]
A
And, like, just like normal boots, like, not. There was no heel. I mean, we were going. We were going through it, but every time I would go in, for some reason, the zipper on my boots would set off all of the alarms, and they'd have to kind of pull me aside and they. I mean, I think they got to know, like, okay, she's probably not. She's probably not doing anything, but just in case they would, like, you know, kind of not, like, you know, kind of just, like, check to make sure.
- [35:07]
B
You had like also a general suspicious air about you.
- [35:10]
A
I did. I remember one time was so sleep deprived, the deputies were so friggin nice at that thing. I think I'm getting all like, I'm, I'm getting all like, I don't know, like remembering it because of. It's no, it's early November and we were like in the thick of it then a year, like literally just a year ago. But I remember, you know, they kept on checking my boots to make sure I wasn't like concealing a stiletto because I guess I just have that kind of vibe. And I remember like they were checking my shoes and you know, I remember one, one of the deputies, do you remember this? He was like, oh, you're just like Cinderella because they're like checking my shoes. And I was like, yeah. And then I was like, what am I? What is my life right now? So anyways, that's alarming. That's really sad for this. This woman, jing Liu.
- [35:53]
B
Yes. Ms. Shen said she had to make this woman die in order to stop her from continuing the feud. And I know sometimes when you're in an online situation battling a person, you do get into that mindset. I have to make this stop. I have to make this stop. And they're not stopping. Maybe the only thing I can do is kill them.
- [36:16]
A
I don't think you've ever gotten to that mindset.
- [36:18]
B
Well, I'm saying that I can understand that. And the thing to remember is you do have another option. The easiest option of all is just to stop paying attention to what that person posts.
- [36:33]
A
Log off.
- [36:34]
B
You don't even have to log off, just go to another website.
- [36:37]
A
What website were they fighting on?
- [36:39]
B
I'm not even sure.
- [36:40]
A
That's wild.
- [36:41]
B
But just remember a lot of things that people say online may be annoying, they may be hurtful, but they don't really affect you in your day to day life. Every day people say awful things about me online, but I'm not aware of it because I'm just living my life happily.
- [37:04]
A
That's a key thing. That's how you win. That's how you win the online feud. You win by not caring and you win by just leaving it.
- [37:11]
B
It's not like the people who are online harassing you are in your front yard, they're not pounding on your car as you try to go somewhere, they're not taking shots at you literally with guns as you try to go into your Walmart.
- [37:26]
A
There very specific examples. Are you hiding something, Kevin? Did something happen?
- [37:34]
B
So it's just very easy just to ignore it. And it's not as important as it might seem to be emotionally in the moment. So she received a sentence and her lawyers were saying, well, the sentence shouldn't have been so harsh because of she had some mental states and mental conditions. And the judge says, no, I think the sentence was fine.
- [38:01]
A
Yeah, it sounds like the sentence was fine. She did a lot of preparation. And I think people need to remember there's like, there's a sense where if you're like a pretty well adjusted person, you might see someone's behavior and be like, that's definite mental illness. Because I would never do that. And you'd have to be totally, like, off your rocker to do that. And the thing is, when it comes to, you know, like, the legal system, it's a much more narrow definition. It's not about, like, oh, that seems weird to most people. It's. It's about, like, intent and were you able to control your actions? And I think that's how it should be. You know, I think I. I think if someone, just because someone has some mental health struggles, like many people do, that's not a blank check to go do whatever you want. Because guess what? Most people who have mental health struggles don't do anything violent. They're not doing anything. They're able to manage it. You know, so in this case, you know, her going to maybe having anxiety and depression, it looks like, is not a good reason for her doing what she did. I mean, I have anxiety and depression. I'm not, you know, and I actually looked at this article, says that they actually met on a online forum in 2005, in 2005, for Chinese immigrants in Canada. So that's where it all started. It's just sad. I mean, this woman got attacked for no reason.
- [39:23]
B
And yeah, it says, quote, the two, quote, became entangled in an intense online feud in which they repeatedly posted insults and personal attacks on one another. End quote. I think we've all seen many situations like that online.
- [39:36]
A
We definitely have. You see, like, people feuding on Facebook or on Twitter or whatever. And I'm just gonna say this, like, as you said, leaving and just not caring is the best thing I'm going to tell you. Like, we've been, we've been, like, attacked. I mean, there's like, people, like, who. They do, like, these villainous monologues, like, you know, when the villain is like, captured the hero and they're monologuing about how they're going to destroy them. We, we. I see that about us. Like, you know, I used to see that about us, like, all the time. People would, you know, oh, these people are talking about you. And. And it was just always like, wow, this is so, like, sad. Because, like, I. It's like, I don't know who half of these people are. It's always like, oh, Kevin. Like, they come up with these new weird names. I joked about true crime swine in the past, but it's like, oh, yes, you know, have. Have you seen what, like, Evil Marmaduke posted about you? It's like, I. No, and I have no interest in that. Because that's like a person who's like. I mean, the power is in not caring, and the power is in removing that stuff from your site. Cause it just, it doesn't, you know, it's just. It's kind of sad and embarrassing at the end. And then. And then you have a person just screaming into the void. And I mean, that's punishment enough for them, right? Because then they're just wasting their own lives on hating you.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah, most of these things don't have a real life component. I'm going to quickly share a very brief anecdote. Oh, no, not going to give any names, but we were in Bloomington recently for the book festival and someone sent us some screenshots of something from Twitter where a gentleman we're well acquainted with said, oh, I live very close to where they're appearing. I'm going to go there and I'm going to ask them some really, really hard questions, and they're going to be so humiliated. And then he also very conveniently posts the questions he's going to ask. They're very easy questions that show he doesn't really understand the case, but whatever. And so we think, okay, this will be fine. And he doesn't show up. And that's just what most of these people are just, Just worthy of being ignored.
- [41:37]
A
Yeah, they're worthy of being ignored. And they. And they just. And they, you know, and then it's just. They're. They're just stupid and kind of sad because they're like, if they're obsessing with you. And the Shen woman had just, you know, ignored Jing Lu and just kind of didn't feed into it and maybe blocked her or, you know, and certainly then if someone escalates into real life, I think that certainly needs to be looked at. But. But when it's just something like this, just ignoring. Because it's like, I think there's a sense of all of us, we want to control a situation and we feel like someone's coming at me. If they're attacking me, I need to deal with it. I need to, you know, respond. I need to like, be able to defend myself. And I understand that instinct. And I think we, we more have had that thing where we're like, we can start a dialogue with people when we were starting out because, like, surely they don't really think we're evil. It's like, no, no, they, they've cast you as the villain in their weird little melodrama and there's nothing you can really do about that. Especially if they're kind of unhinged and you just kind of let them burn themselves out at, you know, entertaining themselves with this sort of one sided, bizarre relationship. And, and you can kind of just go off and be happy and be successful and, you know, do better than them. And that's, I think that's the ultimate revenge.
- [42:50]
B
And before we move on to your final case, I just want to note that your, your participation in the discussion of this case. You've been perceptive, you've been witty, you've been compassionate, you've been a delight. You're not like railing as, oh, let's just punish people. You're just being very delightful. And I think maybe it's the beret and maybe you should think about wearing the beret every episode and perhaps even in your daily life.
- [43:20]
A
Okay.
- [43:22]
B
I mean, you see what I'm saying? You've been delightful in this day.
- [43:25]
A
I've been a nightmare to deal with until I wore the beret. Is that what you're saying?
- [43:29]
B
I'm not saying that, but I'm saying.
- [43:31]
A
Sounds like you're saying that.
- [43:32]
B
I'm saying the beret kicked things up into. Wow.
- [43:36]
A
I don't know if the listeners agree. Like I don't know about.
- [43:40]
B
I'm getting real time updates from the listeners.
- [43:43]
A
Kevin, we're not live.
- [43:44]
B
No.
- [43:46]
A
Kevin, are you okay? Kevin's going into his beret illusions. Oh my God. Okay. Are we leaving camp?
- [43:55]
B
Ray Delusions is the title of my mystery novel.
- [43:58]
A
I think it's the title of your like, weird experiment little jazz album. Okay. Are we moving along? Yes, we're going to Australia. Thanks again to the listener who recommended that we do this one. So this is a case that involves disturbing a disturbing crime around the rape of a child. So I will just note that it centers around a man named Steven Van De Velde. And in 20, he was. He's a man from Amsterdam when he was 19 years old. In 2024. I'm sorry, 2014, he left Amsterdam. He left the Netherlands to go to England where he traveled to meet a 12 year old girl we had connected with on Facebook. He was just, before anyone has any questions on this, this 19 year old was perfectly aware that she was 12. Okay? So there's no confusion about her age. This is not a situation where she said she was older, he KNEW she was 12. So he goes and meets with her, travels to her hometown. He gave her alcohol and raped her three times in three separate incidents. And after she said in one instance that he was hurting her. And at the end, before he left for the Netherlands, he told her to go get emergency contraception so she wouldn't fall pregnant at 12. So number of years passed. In January 2016, he's extradited and then arrested in the United Kingdom. And in that, that year he, at 21 years old, pled guilty to three counts of rape, including the rape of a child under the age of 13. And the judge at the Aylesbury Crown Court said that said something about his, his career. So van Develd was a professional athlete. He was a volleyball player. And so the judge said, this is gonna, you know, ruin your career. You could have been an Olympian, but now, now you won't be. Well, turns out that that's not exactly correct. This guy got four years and served 13 months. He had to serve it in the Netherlands based on a treaty between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. And the Netherlands is apparently a country that did not recognize the crime of rape unless force was involved until 2024. So that's concerning. So he served 13 months of this four year sentence and got out in 2017. In media reports, he was pretty defiant. Said he made like a bad choice. He was just a teenager. He was just figuring stuff out. And immediately, like the following year he starts his professional volleyball career. Now all of this came up recently because at the Paris Olympics he was being booed and people were really questioning the Dutch Olympic Committees decision to let him play despite his crime. And I remember at the time, like the, the Olympic Committee, the Dutch Olympic Committee basically responded something of like, well, yeah, he's a child rapist, but he's good at volleyball. And it's like, Jesus Christ. You know, I mean, like way to tell people within your own nation who are rape victims that you just don't care. Like, I mean, children. She was a 12 year old. And the good news is, so, you know, he was booed at the Olympics and was a whole controversy. This came up again recently because Australia. He was due to go to Australia to play in some kind of volleyball tournament and Australia was not having this. And South Australia's Attorney General Cam Mayer wrote to the government saying, hey, maybe we shouldn't give this guy a visa for this because he's a child rapist. And Australia was like, yeah, so they didn't let him in. That's what should have been done at the.
- [47:59]
B
Exactly.
- [48:00]
A
I'm sorry. And, and I, I like, I just. The fact that they allowed him on anyway, and the. I mean, that, that. I think that's. That's rotten. But kudos to Australia for being like, nope. You know, it's like. Actually, I think. I think like the child rape issue is actually more important than his skills on the, on. On the volleyball court, believe it or not. You know, I think that stuff does matter. We're not talking, I mean, like, if he, like, got busted with some drugs or something. I don't mean performance enhancing drugs. I mean, like pot or something. Yeah. You know, I could understand. Hey, let him in. You know, that doesn't mean he's. He's horrible. And you know, the lack of remorse here, though, I mean, just is. Is horrible. And I, I'm sorry. Like, no normal 19 year old wants to have sex with a 12 year old. Like, that's not, that's not like a. Oh, I was just figuring stuff out. What? Figuring out that you're a pedophile? I mean, like, like, I don't know. Anyways, I feel my heart goes out to the UK victim and I'm again, kudos to Australia for not putting up with this nonsense. Yeah, that's Australia.
- [49:13]
B
So bless Australia. Is this enough for us to put that Crocodile Dundee incident out of our minds?
- [49:19]
A
What?
- [49:20]
B
Don't we all kind of hold a grudge against Australia for that?
- [49:23]
A
What are you talking about the movie?
- [49:25]
B
Yeah.
- [49:26]
A
I don't have a grudge against Australia.
- [49:29]
B
That franchise went on way too long.
- [49:31]
A
I didn't know there was more than one movie.
- [49:33]
B
I think that franchise should have lasted like maybe 20 minutes of the first film. Then we all get the idea and we can move on. But what you're telling me. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones.
- [49:46]
A
Okay. It's a bizarre statement, as usual. I think when I put on the Beret, Kevin gets even weirder.
- [49:53]
B
I think everybody is charmed and delighted by Beret Anya.
- [49:57]
A
Oh, my God.
- [49:58]
B
So we're moving on a promotional announcement or two and then what may be the last story, Right?
- [50:05]
A
Maybe because we were literally Running out of anecdotes we don't have.
- [50:07]
B
Like, we know it's because the promotional period is ending.
- [50:11]
A
Yeah. But also, let's be honest, we're running out of.
- [50:13]
B
We've got a big bag of stories over here.
- [50:15]
A
Well, you may have a big bag of stories, but I feel like I, I, you know, at some point my story is just kind of turned kind of dark. So I don't.
- [50:25]
B
That's because you weren't wearing the beret. Now that you have the beret. Oh, my God, your life is a pageant.
- [50:30]
A
Kevin thinks the beret is magic, isn't it? So our last scheduled event that we have is Saturday, Dec. 6, 2025, in Indianapolis, Indiana, My birthday. We're going to be going to the 2025 Holiday Author Fair. From noon to 4pm you can go and see different authors, and we're going to be at a table there, and it's going to be great. And we're going to meet you. And if you don't say Happy birthday to Kevin, we will scowl at you and shake our fists. No, I'm just kidding. I'm not Kevin. Well, I'll be in my beret, so I'll just be all happy.
- [51:04]
B
Just. You, you're not capable of feeling unpleasantness when you're wearing a quince beret.
- [51:11]
A
You know, I don't think they're going to want you to say that because I think that's overselling it. But, yeah, come by, swing by, see us. And, you know, we're going to be winding down book promotion because we are tired, but it'll be nice to do one last hurrah there and see everybody. And Indianapolis is nice and centrally located, so hopefully some of you guys can come up for that. And it's my birthday and it's Kevin's birthday. You can celebrate. Tell, tell him about fish places he can go to that he can obsess over and talk to me about a lot. And then you can get your tickets on our website. So it's murder sheep podcast.com events.
- [51:51]
B
And speaking of food, Mr. Pibb, for complicated legal reasons, is about to be really relaunched in a major way. Some markets have already gotten it. We've been obsessing over it and trying to find. Even though I think we live in a region that's not likely to get it for a little while, I know it's probably available up in Michigan.
- [52:15]
A
Uh, Kevin is obsessed with PIB. PIB extras. It's called today.
- [52:20]
B
It was originally Mr. Pibb. They changed the formula. They call it PIB extra. And now they're changing the formula again and it's going to be called Mr. Pibb. And it's all because of this illegal situation with Dr. Pepper. But we don't need to go into that.
- [52:32]
A
Yeah, but it's. You know, you always say when a restaurant has pib, it's a touch of class.
- [52:38]
B
And I'm always correct.
- [52:39]
A
Okay.
- [52:41]
B
Don't you find that to be true?
- [52:42]
A
I don't. Really, I don't. I'm more of a Coke Pepsi person in terms of like the cola side of things versus like the black cherry sodas.
- [52:52]
B
And I'll note that in Delphi, a city we've been in quite a bit, obviously the Mr. Pibb flows like water. You can go into the Delphi Depot, all these great places in there. It's a Mr. Pibb town. And that is a sign of a classy town.
- [53:09]
A
You go into the Bacon Festival, you can raise your glass of Mr. Pibb High with all the other Delphi denizens. People from Delphi listening are probably thinking, what the hell?
- [53:22]
B
Wonderful community for many reasons. That's just one.
- [53:24]
A
Yeah. It's not just that. Now we know where Kevin's heart really lies. He's just going there because they have Mr. Pibbie. Oh, man.
- [53:34]
B
So in the Burger Chef murders, these four people are kidnapped from the Burger Chef and taken to another location where two of them are then killed with a.38. The other two are killed by other methods. A.38 gun. So as it turns out that at the same time, and by the way I've segued into the story, it was.
- [53:56]
A
A bit of an abrupt change. It was like, yes, haha, Mr. Pibb. And then people were murdered. Like, whoa.
- [54:01]
B
So it turns out that at about the same time these kids were being kidnapped from the restaurant a block or so away, a guy is driving erratically. He gets pulled over by the police. As the police are coming up to him, he takes a.38 gun, he has, he puts it in a Burger Chef cup, he throws it out the window. Police don't even notice. So we have this. Is this just a crazy coincidence or is this guy somehow involved in the crime, perhaps as a lookout or what have you? So obviously Anya and I really, really wanted to talk to this person. We really wanted to find him. And it was a long quest. Ultimately, I'll say it, we did find him. We talked to him. He's been on the show. He even ended up threatening to kill me so he could marry Anya.
- [54:57]
A
As many men do. I have that effect on people.
- [55:00]
B
No, no, no. Woman is, like, threatening to kill you to get with me.
- [55:04]
A
Yeah. No, no.
- [55:05]
B
You inspire, like, a higher level of devotion.
- [55:08]
A
Yeah, Men are just lining up around the block. Sorry, fellas. You know, murder is not legal. Appreciate the enthusiasm. No, I'm just kidding. But this was actually the only time that happened. And of course, it was an unbalanced elderly man.
- [55:23]
B
So. So. So you were like a well balanced, mentally healthy hunk. A young guy threatened to kill him. That's what you're saying? That's what you want the threats to come?
- [55:33]
A
No, I don't want any threats. I would. I would. I would rather.
- [55:36]
B
I thought it was. I thought it was interesting that he thinks, like, oh, the only impediment is Kevin. And if I kill him, Anya would just be so impressed. As a crime connoisseur.
- [55:48]
A
Oh, my God, no, don't even joke about this.
- [55:51]
B
But that's all. That's all in the future.
- [55:53]
A
True crime really messed us up because we have a very morbid sense of humor. I think about a bunch of people probably listening right now being like, what? What are they joking about?
- [56:01]
B
He's not going to kill me. We all know that. Spoiler alert. So we want to find this guy. And it took us years, but early on in the search, actually, the first time Anya comes to Indiana, we really want to find this guy. All we know is he is living in Texas. He's living in the great city of Houston. And we know that while he's been in Houston, he stabbed a guy. And of course, one of the victims of the Burger Chef murders was stabbed. So we're very interested. He doesn't seem to have a fixed address. And what we hear is he might be homeless or in a homeless shelter, so it might be very difficult to find. We talk a lot about this with two detectives who really considered him to be a worthwhile person of interest at the time. We go, even though this guy's potentially homeless, he has a Facebook page and he has his little Facebook profile picture. And then, as you know, if you go on Facebook, there's also an addition to that, like a banner picture at the top of your profile. And his banner picture is the back wall of a restaurant. And so we look at this and we hypothesize as we are want to do, and we think, well, if he's posting a picture of a restaurant, it almost looks like an employees only area. This must be a place where he spends a lot of time or perhaps works. And so if we go to Houston and go to this restaurant. Maybe we'll find him. Of course, he doesn't name the restaurant. It's just a picture of a wall. And so we really study the wall, and by really analyzing a lot of the details of the wall, and we do this over the phone because Anya's in New York at the time and I'm in Indiana. We find the restaurant, we figure out where the restaurant is.
- [57:55]
A
And I just want to, like, in retrospect, that was us flirting with each other. I don't think we realized it, but I remember being, like, really impressed with you. Do you remember that?
- [58:07]
B
I do.
- [58:08]
A
Wow, this guy is really good at research. That's flirtation in our world.
- [58:19]
B
So then we make the decision. When Anya comes to Indiana, we'll take a day, and we will spend far too much money that we really don't have to fly down to Houston and go to this restaurant. And we talk about this with these two detectives, and they're full of ideas. One of them says, well, you know, Anya, the idea of talking to him in a restaurant, that's probably not wise. What you should do, what you should do. What a smart woman would do in a situation like this if she's confronting a potential quadruple murderer with a history of impulsive violence is tell him you have a hotel room and then take him to the hotel room and talk to him in private.
- [59:06]
A
Yeah, makes sense. Why not?
- [59:11]
B
The other ideas were in some of his online stuff. He seemed to be talking a lot about religion. So, Anya, why don't you wear, like, a really big.
- [59:21]
A
Oh, I wore a big ass cross.
- [59:24]
B
Big ass cross. Dressed even more conservatively than usual. Kevin, just clean up a little bit.
- [59:31]
A
Maybe, like, get a haircut or something.
- [59:34]
B
They also say we remember him being very, very close to this one particular detective who recently has passed away. Why don't you get his obituary.
- [59:44]
A
Oh, my God.
- [59:45]
B
Laminated and, like, put it in a binder and give it to him and say you're there from his family or something. And, you know, we're very, very new to this. This is. This is the very early days of our relationship.
- [59:58]
A
Yeah, I mean, we weren't in a relationship at this point. We were just friends.
- [60:02]
B
Yeah. Very early days of knowing each other. And we're very new to crime reporting and stuff, so. So we. We take all these suggestions.
- [60:10]
A
We didn't take the hotel suggestion. We laughed about that one. Remember saying something about that. And then a woman we're friends with was like, oh, no. Oh, my God. So, yeah, we. We do all this. Oh, my God. And we go down to Houston.
- [60:28]
B
Do you want to pick up the tale from there? Oh, let me say one thing first. As we're going to Houston, as we're on this journey, and as we arrive and, like, going to this restaurant, we get a very formally written message.
- [60:43]
A
This was amazing.
- [60:44]
B
I love this from these two detectives, where they're saying, dear Kevin and Anya, I'm paraphrasing. Your idea to go down to Houston and talk to this person is stupid, and the two of you might get killed. And it's not our fault, and we're against it. Signed, the detectives. Not Steve and Dave, but just these other detectives. And so they're acting, like, in writing, like they're against it. But then, like, as soon as we land, you know, one of them is, like, calling us, oh, have you found him yet? So it was just.
- [61:14]
A
It was iconic.
- [61:16]
B
Yeah, it was just pick up the story. We go there. We walk into this restaurant.
- [61:20]
A
So we walk into this restaurant, and immediately we're thinking, like, what. What are we doing here? Like, what do we. What did we do? And, like, we ask staff, hey, does this guy work here? Like, give his name and stuff? And they're like, no. And we're like, okay, but, like, surely he's a regular customer, right? Because, like, who has a restaurant as their Facebook cover photo? Unless, you know, they have some kind of emotional connection there? And they're like, we've never heard of this guy. And we're like, oh, my God. So then we start running down different addresses possibly associated with him, and nothing happens. Nothing happened? No, no, no. What happens is, I don't know if you've ever been in Houston traffic before, but basically all day. And also, we're disorganized. We don't know what we're doing. We're going. We're swinging wildly around Houston. We're going this way, that way. We could have crafted a map where we could have probably hit things as we went, but it just felt like we constantly were on this one highway, going back and back and forth and back and forth, and we're just like, we're the biggest goofballs in the universe. How does this even happen? How does this happen to people? The hubris of it was crazy.
- [62:33]
B
And then later they say, we do meet this man, and he indicates he's not really especially religious, not really especially close to that detective. So those things wouldn't have worked. I'm going to simplify the story, because you're probably saying, well, you know, how did you find him? Did you go back to Houston? Did you hire detectives? What was the clever strategy you came up with and what the strategy was? It occurred to us one day, wait a minute. There's a person living near us who probably has his phone number. And we go to that person, they say, oh, yeah, I have his phone number. Here it is. And that was it. And then we just called the guy.
- [63:10]
A
That was it. That was. That was really. Yeah, that was. That was a. That was a startling look into how impulsive you and I can be. Go to Houston, baby.
- [63:21]
B
So we really learned a lot on Burger Chef.
- [63:24]
A
We also. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we did get into the hu. We got into some records in Houston that weren't. That were somewhat helpful. That was pretty much the only thing we got out of Houston.
- [63:33]
B
Yeah, we got some more details about the stabbing incident.
- [63:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess it wasn't a total disaster, but it was.
- [63:41]
B
We interviewed this guy on the show. Eventually, I think we have an unreleased interview with him where we got really heated. Heated. And he's didn't.
- [63:53]
A
He called me the C word during that. Am I remembering that correctly? He did threaten us.
- [63:58]
B
See? See what a Lothario. Because, you know, if you want to get to Anya, threaten to kill her husband, call her the C word. And she goes, no.
- [64:12]
A
Oh, man. All right, well, are we done?
- [64:14]
B
I think we're done.
- [64:15]
A
Leave Houston again.
- [64:17]
B
We're gonna leave Houston.
- [64:18]
A
All right. Some ways we never left Houston. All right, well, I guess, yeah. Hopefully see some of you guys in Indianapolis and on my birthday, on Kevin's birthday. And, you know, if you have a case you want us to cover, let us know.
- [64:33]
B
And if you have a case of Mr. Pibb, let us know.
- [64:37]
A
Kevin would come by your house and pick it up. Apparently.
- [64:39]
B
What would be finer than having a great fish sandwich and wash it down with a cold Mr. Pip.
- [64:45]
A
Okay. It's a pretty good day for you.
- [64:49]
B
That'd be a glorious birthday.
- [64:52]
A
People get kicked out of the book festival because they're trying to sneak in fish sandwiches of Mr. Pip.
- [64:57]
B
Those people would be heroes.
- [64:59]
A
Kevin would salute them as they're hauled out by security. All right, well, thank you all so.
- [65:04]
B
Much for listening, and thanks for beret Anya.
- [65:07]
A
Oh, you're welcome. Tip of the beret. Ya, sir. All right. Can we go? Yeah.
- [65:13]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please Report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [65:34]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [65:57]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [66:09]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [66:39]
B
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A
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B
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A
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