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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
Want to have the time of your life while also supporting veterans, then our sponsor is definitely for you. We're talking about Hometown Hero.
- [00:07]
Kevin Greenlee
This is a company that crafts premium hemp products from infused chocolates to gummies to drink mixes. Whatever floats your boat this summer and ships them out to you in discreet packages.
- [00:18]
Anya Cain
And Hometown Hero also lives up to its name by giving back. See, Hometown Hero was founded in 2015 by US veteran Lucas Gilkey. The company donates a portion of its profits to nonprofits that support veterans.
- [00:31]
Kevin Greenlee
We love a company that strives to support our veterans. Plus they are all about quality. You know. All of these products are made in the United States and tested in a third party lab to ensure top notch purity and safety.
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Anya Cain
The hemp itself is all grown in Texas and Hometown Hero is actually based in Austin. So you know exactly what's going into your Hometown Hero products. Most of their products come from live Rosin, which is a cannabis concentrate extract extracted using only heat and pressure, no solvents.
- [01:01]
Kevin Greenlee
You're getting the plant's true essence.
- [01:03]
Anya Cain
It's basically the cold pressed juice of cannabis.
- [01:06]
Kevin Greenlee
And with that in mind, Hometown Hero has really got something for everyone to try. Even peanut butter chocolate squares.
- [01:13]
Anya Cain
Reclaim your evening. Visit hometownhero.com and use code msheet to take 20% off your first purchase. That's hometownhero.com code msheet for 20% off your first purchase. Boosting your own health makes you a bit like a detective. You've got to rule out possible leads and culprits and get to the truth.
- [01:31]
Kevin Greenlee
When it comes to feeling bad or off, one top suspect should always be hormone imbalance. Fortunately, we have a sponsor who can help you with that. Happy Mammoth.
- [01:42]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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- [02:06]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [02:16]
Anya Cain
Also, don't sleep on their prebiotic collagen protein powder. It tastes good with a mild vanilla flavor and I'm using it a lot to keep my skin healthy.
- [02:25]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [02:39]
Anya Cain
Summer's upon us. So that means breaking out new lightweight, breathable pieces. Or if you're like me and lacking in that department, it means it's time to go shopping. The good news is you can get timeless well made garments and fashion pieces that won't go out of style. Just check out our sponsor Quince.
- [02:56]
Kevin Greenlee
They have summer styles that will make you look great this summer without submerging your bank account in the deep end.
- [03:03]
Anya Cain
Seriously, I'm about to go shopping there and I don't even know what to choose. They've got 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear for the beach or pool, Italian leather platform sandals and more. I will keep you all updated on what we get.
- [03:18]
Kevin Greenlee
Same I am tempted by some of their European linen shirts. They are a nice style and look perfect for summer. Quince is a great place to try out new things in terms of fashion because you know the product will be quality and the style would not go out of fashion. It's timeless.
- [03:35]
Anya Cain
All quint items are 50% to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. Plus Murder Sheet listeners are going to get a great deal. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quints. Go to quint.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet content warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence as well as racism.
- [04:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, but hopefully we won't be talking about Cinnamon Toast Crunch's ad campaign this week.
- [04:15]
Anya Cain
Anything but that. We should have put a trigger warning in for that for the first one. So Anyways, today is June 17th. We're recording this in a bit in advance, but we're going to be talking about cases that come out of Nevada, the state of Washington, as well as abroad. We're going to France and we are going to England.
- [04:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Ooh la la.
- [04:38]
Anya Cain
Soccer blue. Anyways, let's get into it.
- [04:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Do it.
- [04:42]
Anya Cain
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:45]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:48]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:49]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:56]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Cathedrals and Criteria Sam this first case is out of Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a Disturbing situation that, frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen more of in recent times, just given what social media is, what it is. This is a situation where two YouTubers got into a feud, and then on the night of June 8, 2025, one of them shot and killed the other and his wife. So it's about the conflict between Manuel Ruiz and Rodley Finley Rodney. Finley Rodney and his wife Tanisha were shot dead on. On the sidewalk in front of Las Vegas's famous Bellagio fountains. And at this point, Ruiz has been arrested, and he's facing two counts of murder with a deadly weapon around the shooting. So, like, this is just. I mean, I don't know. I mean, what do you think of this, given some of the stuff we've dealt with with social media beefs and YouTube and whatnot?
- [06:54]
Kevin Greenlee
There's a lot of social media beefs, I think I tend to agree with you. That is shocking. There is not a lot more of this. Sometimes. Yeah, there's a lot of anger, a lot of personal vitriol going back and forth between rivals on YouTube. Yeah, it's. I don't. I don't know what to say other than. Yeah, the surprising thing is that there's not more of this.
- [07:29]
Anya Cain
So the. The. So before this, and. And to be clear, this shooting was on camera. I mean, like, you can. You can see it. It's very disturbing to watch. So just be, you know, be careful with that one. It's upsetting. Two people died, but you can. You can see it happen. So this is. This is a situation where, though, where people who are kind of familiar with the situation and, oh, my sources for this, by the way, are 8News now and the Las Vegas Review Journal, the Nevada Globe. So there's been some good reporting on this. And also, thank you so much to the listener who brought this to our attention. They were like, I think you guys want to look into this? And we were like, yeah, but the thing is, like, this dates back. There's apparently a few dating back to 2023, and it seems like the Finleys may have started their own YouTube account just to argue with Ruiz. Right. So, like, there's like, a huge beef here. Not. Not really clear to me all the ins and outs of that. And frankly, it doesn't matter because it's just stupid, you know? But there had been a couple of incidents prior to this happening. In one situation, Ruiz was accused of pushing one of the Finlays on the street. You know, as part of. As part of this. As part of this Feud. So just like physical altercations and I mean, obviously all that stuff's going to be probably coming up now that there's a murder trial pending. I imagine so, yeah. One weird thing is that neighbors of Ruiz talked about how he was actually a very like, private man. Like they didn't really know much about him. He wasn't really like going out and, you know, doing anything and whatnot. And the other thing people talked about in this article, which you should definitely read by the Review Journal, is just that people who knew Ruiz said they didn't think he necessarily earned enough money from YouTube to support himself. I think it's really important to me mention that a lot of these people are not motivated, like out of business interests or money solely. You can make good money on YouTube, don't get me wrong. But you have to be pretty big to do that. A lot of it is community and attention. Has that been your observation?
- [09:45]
Kevin Greenlee
That's, that's been my observation. And one thing I nearly said before is that sometimes it feels like the smaller the stakes, the more intense the rivalry and hatred. And in terms of money and things of that nature, the stakes in YouTube beefs are often quite smoth.
- [10:08]
Anya Cain
It's. It's usually better to just ignore people. You're, I mean, like for other creators who might be listening, usually better to just ignore stuff and just be the bigger person because like anyone who's trying to fight you is ridiculous. But it, it does show how things can kind of spill over into real life in this situation. And you know, this is, this is somebody you know, so. So the Las Vegas Review Journal quotes a person named Archie Coronado. This is a person who said they were watching the Finley's live stream when the shooting happened. He said he told police that he saw Ruiz appear on the video feed, brandish a gun and fire a series of shots until the phone filming the video fell to the ground. And people talked about, you know, like they might have, you know, like, this is, I mean, to me, I don't know how you can argue that that's self defense. That just seems like somebody stalking down this couple and shooting and killing them. And apparently Ruiz has said, well, he thought Finley was reaching for a gun and believe the wife also had. Finley's wife also had a gun and that doesn't make sense because she was injured in the back of her head. So I mean, this just seems like an execution, frankly. Seems like a pretty open and shut case. But I mean, like, I, I guess I just don't understand why someone would be so impulsive that they would just, like, sacrifice their lives for life for the sake of some stupid YouTube beef.
- [11:37]
Kevin Greenlee
We. We've seen people flame out. We've seen people sacrifice a lot for their YouTube.
- [11:44]
Anya Cain
Channels crash out, as the kids say, jobs, relationships.
- [11:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Relationships quite a bit.
- [11:51]
Anya Cain
Like integrity, you know, and it's. It's for nothing. And people. You know, it's really not accurate when people are like, oh, they're doing it for money. You don't make that much money.
- [12:02]
Kevin Greenlee
You do it for the attention. And it's ironic because YouTube is like sand on a beach right by the ocean. Because you can, like, go down to the ocean. You can, like, draw a little thing in the sand, or you make a sand castle. And people say, oh, that's a nice little sand castle. And then the next day, you know, it'll be gone because the waves will take it away.
- [12:26]
Anya Cain
Beautiful analogy.
- [12:27]
Kevin Greenlee
And it'll be forgotten. And that's what YouTube is. And people sacrifice so much just for that one brief burst of praise and attention.
- [12:37]
Anya Cain
I don't. I think people, like, didn't get enough attention as kids or got too much attention as kids, and it makes them make choices like this, and they think they're famous and they're just not. It's like, a very limited perspective, but if you're not capable of, like, handling being a limited public figure, then, you know, you shouldn't be doing it. But especially if it's leading to stuff like this. But I would also hope that, like, you know, I mean, I would hope that stuff like this makes people realize that there are unstable people on YouTube. And if people are, like, threatening each other or if this guy Ruiz is, like, stalking the Finleys, maybe something should be done about that before these, you know, people end up dead. You know, it could be an actual threat to their lives, as it was in this case.
- [13:23]
Kevin Greenlee
A lot of people don't take online threats or online stuff as seriously as they should. Because if you're not on YouTube and somebody comes up to you and says, oh, Mr. Police Officer, true crime swine 89 is beefing with divorced dad 65. Something might happen. You can understand why a person would tend to think, well, that doesn't sound too serious. But unfortunately, it can be quite serious indeed.
- [13:53]
Anya Cain
Exactly. All right, so we're going to. We're going north to Washington.
- [13:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Is that where you're directing us with your cane?
- [14:00]
Anya Cain
Train, train. All aboard. Let's go.
- [14:07]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. I guess I got no choice in the matter.
- [14:10]
Anya Cain
Hop on board.
- [14:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay, I'm on board. And we're pulling into Seattle. My source for this is actually the Seattle Times, and this involves an ongoing lawsuit that a gentleman named Emanuel Fair has filed about. He's alleging he was accused and tried of murder. And he believes that the prosecutors in the case exhibited some forms of racial bias against him. And so because of that, he is seeking redress. And what is interesting is actually, there's several things that are interesting, but one thing that is interesting is that the prosecutor involved is a man named Jeff Baird. And usually prosecutors enjoy immunity for acts they commit while they are doing their job. But in this case, the judge is not giving Mr. Baird such immunity because he is saying that absolute immunity is waived when a prosecutor performs administrative functions or investigative functions that are normally performed by a police officer or a detective. And the problem there is that in Seattle, they have this program where prosecutors do get involved somewhat with the investigations. And so this. If this part of the ruling stands, if I was a prosecutor, I'd be very reluctant to get involved in such things. If I knew that I would be losing my immunity. And so I'm a little bit concerned about that because the end result would be that prosecutors would be less involved with consulting with police, potentially. What do you think?
- [16:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I mean, that. That seems like a pretty extreme thing. I guess my question is, what is he alleged to have done that's racist against this defendant?
- [16:28]
Kevin Greenlee
The claim is that there were some coded language that they think might be racist. There was, like, an email where Baird said that you could tell that this man Fair was lying because his lips were moving. So that is said to be potentially racist.
- [16:49]
Anya Cain
How? On what?
- [16:52]
Kevin Greenlee
And another thing that is.
- [16:55]
Anya Cain
Oh, that's stupid. I'm sorry, I'm not going to know. Like, there's. That's. That's a phrase. That's a stupid Meghan Trainor song. That's weak. That's like looking for something that's. I'm sorry, that's bullshit.
- [17:10]
Kevin Greenlee
And there. There were also claims that evidence was described in a misleading way in the probable cause affidavit. And I'm going to read you what the judge said. I'll be curious as to what you think. Judge wrote, quote, the description of the DNA evidence against Fair could be misleading. For example, DNA on a roll of duct tape found indicated that both Fair and a white neighbor could not be excluded as possible contributors. But the PC only says that Fair's DNA has been discovered on the tape. End quote. Okay, so what do you think?
- [17:51]
Anya Cain
Well, I'm sorry. I'm hung up on this. This Racism thing. I, what is, what are they alleged to have done? Like what, what is the, what is the crime here? I guess like what, what did they do?
- [18:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, again, one of the things is overstating evidence.
- [18:06]
Anya Cain
No, I'm saying the, the murder.
- [18:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, the murder.
- [18:09]
Anya Cain
Yeah, the actual murder.
- [18:11]
Kevin Greenlee
The murder actually happened. He was charged in 2010 with rape and murder of 24 year old Arpana Janaga. She was found strangled in her apartment.
- [18:25]
Anya Cain
Okay.
- [18:27]
Kevin Greenlee
He was acquitted in 2019. So he was actually incarcerated for nine years and he spent a fair amount of that time in solitary confinement.
- [18:37]
Anya Cain
A PCA does not need to include everything. So I guess that just seems a little bit overrod. And I, I don't know, I, I.
- [18:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Can also understand the argument that that does tend to overstate it a bit.
- [18:49]
Anya Cain
But I think, I think that's a better route to go down than this his lips are moving thing. That's stupid. And all this stuff about, you know, dog whistles and whatnot. Yeah, that, that absolutely does happen. Right? I mean like people are racist in that way. People might be racist in a more low key way where they're not really saying anything overt, but they're kind of there, there's, there's some coded language there that's a common phrase that's just looking for something. So if they don't have anything more than that, then that's just stupid and embarrassing and that should be laughed out of a courtroom, in my opinion.
- [19:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, it's important that the judge has allowed this lawsuit to continue. That doesn't necessarily mean that the lawsuit is going to triumph. When you, when a judge makes a decision about whether or not to allow the lawsuit to continue, he or she is required to evaluate the arguments in the way most favorable to the person who created the lawsuit. Does that make sense?
- [19:55]
Anya Cain
That does make sense. And this guy was acquitted, so he's not facing prison anymore or anything like that. So he, they had that.
- [20:04]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm concerned about the idea that he was incarcerated for nine years, mostly in solitary confinement. That is troubling.
- [20:12]
Anya Cain
Well, I'd want to know what exactly prompted him to be in solitary confinement. Where did that decision come down to? Was that behavioral issues on his part or was that just sort of unilaterally we're going to put this guy away because he did something really bad. But he hasn't been convicted yet. So I mean, my feeling about that would come down to what was underpinning that decision and who is behind it. This message comes from Greenlight ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy. Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest. With your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk free@greenlight.com wondry craving your next action packed adventure? Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spoil spine tingling horror and romance and far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us that's audible.com wonderyus because if you're putting someone in that situation for no reason, then that seems really concerning.
- [22:02]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm concerned about the immunity issue. If a prosecutor can lose their immunity from a civil suit by working with police, where does the line get drawn? If a police officer just asks for advice or guidance on a case, does that mean if you give that advice or guidance, you're waiving your qualified or your absolute immunity?
- [22:28]
Anya Cain
Well, qualified immunity in general is becoming an increasingly controversial thing politically. So I, I would, I would, you know, it seems like there's some political movement to undermine that, you know, which I personally think could really backfire. I know that's not necessarily popular to say in some circles, but I don't, I don't think it's a good idea. I understand why it's happening though, because people want accountability. So, I mean, like, I get it.
- [22:54]
Kevin Greenlee
But, and I, I should also note the decision to allow this lawsuit to continue. The prosecutor's office is appealing that to.
- [23:03]
Anya Cain
A federal court, I would imagine. Yeah, I mean it, it seems, seems pretty extreme. But you know, I, I, I don't, but was there anything I don't want to like, dismiss it out of hand? Was there anything else about the race stuff that was like, oh, that and this and that and that was, no, these were all problematic.
- [23:25]
Kevin Greenlee
I, I told you what was cited.
- [23:28]
Anya Cain
I mean, do you think that's anything? Am I being mean?
- [23:33]
Kevin Greenlee
If you are assessing it in the way most favorable to Mr. Fair and you squint maybe. But, yeah, I'm concerned. Yeah.
- [23:43]
Anya Cain
Literally a bad Meg. I mean, I don't. I don't care for that song, but it's a. It's a Meghan Trainor song. It's a phrase that you hear. It's not. That seems more of like, let's read this in the most. You know, let's really stretch. I don't know. That's. But. But with the other stuff, maybe there's something there. I don't know. But I. I just. That makes me a bit skeptical. I'm not gonna lie.
- [24:05]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. Shall we move on?
- [24:09]
Anya Cain
Yes, let's. So I think we're going to France, right?
- [24:14]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, we're going to France. So this is me again.
- [24:16]
Anya Cain
This is you again.
- [24:18]
Kevin Greenlee
You're working me like a dog over here.
- [24:20]
Anya Cain
I should.
- [24:21]
Kevin Greenlee
So what are we taking to France? Isn't there, like, is it. What's that? Are we taking the Chunnel? Is the cane train going through the Chunnel?
- [24:28]
Anya Cain
That would probably kill a lot of people. Why don't we just not. Why don't we just leave the train in the States?
- [24:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, the Kane plane. Are we taking, like, the Concorde over?
- [24:35]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Kevin Greenlee
So should people, like, put on earplugs because of the sonic boom?
- [24:40]
Anya Cain
Yes, I would imagine. Very smart.
- [24:45]
Kevin Greenlee
So this is out of France. And my source for this is Reuters. This is something I find interesting because one thing in common with lawyers everywhere, every country, every race, every color, every creed, every gender, lawyers like to argue about definitions. And so in France, there are stronger penalties for crimes that are acts of terrorism than if you committed those same crimes and they're not an act of terrorism. And so the question is, how exactly do you define terrorism? And you know the classic line about obscenity, Somebody once asked a Supreme Court justice to. To say what constitutes obscenities is what. You know it when you see it. I don't know if that applies with terrorism. I'm curious, just off the top of your head, Anya, how would you define terrorism?
- [25:49]
Anya Cain
I'm not gonna. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just. I'm. I guess maybe trying to use violence to get a political or ideological aim pushed through.
- [26:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Or.
- [26:04]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [26:05]
Kevin Greenlee
Or create terror or fear or. There was a case.
- [26:09]
Anya Cain
So, I mean, if you're trying to create terror, fear, then people who are, like, the Scooby Doo villains would be terrorists. Right? Because they're trying to scare people to get them away from the Land deal or whatever, I think usually would just be tied to an ideology.
- [26:22]
Kevin Greenlee
There. There's a case where a member of a minority was killed in 4 France be. Be by somebody who said, oh, France is unable to protect us, unable to send these people home. And he says, well, my motive wasn't racial.
- [26:42]
Anya Cain
That seems pretty racial. That seems like terrorism is, is a.
- [26:47]
Kevin Greenlee
Racial motive enough to constitute terrorism.
- [26:51]
Anya Cain
I mean, if that's your political goal to reduce immigration and you're killing someone over it, I mean, I, that seems pretty fair to me. That seems terroristic.
- [27:03]
Kevin Greenlee
French law defines terrorism as a crime where the perpetrator has the goal of seriously disturbing public order through intimidation or terror.
- [27:11]
Anya Cain
That seems kind of vague.
- [27:12]
Kevin Greenlee
That is vague. One person said, well, basically terrorism is whatever the government says is terrorism.
- [27:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I guess that's kind of it.
- [27:20]
Kevin Greenlee
And so you can have very similar acts that may be considered terrorism or may not be considered terrorism. You have a lot of right wing motivated terrorism or potential terrorism that's not getting treated the same way as other types of terrorism are being treated. It just gets very, very complicated. And the stakes are very, very high because as I say, the sentences are tougher if it is terrorism. So what do you make of it all?
- [27:56]
Anya Cain
Yeah, the stakes are very high as far as like this, I mean, like, I don't know, I, it, I, I understand why stuff like this is controversial. Sort of like hate crimes. Because it's like at some point, like with a hate crime it's like, oh, is just being hateful also like, like kind of thought police sort of situation, even if it's well intentioned, you know, we're kind of getting into a realm of like, well, you know, like we're kind of policing people's thoughts with terrorism. Yeah, it kind of goes to like, intent of like, I want to murder a guy or I want to murder a guy and create a big fuss in France. You know, it kind. And I would be, it is kind of. You don't want to get into a situation where you're saying, like, obviously France has had a huge problem with kind of Islamist terrorism over the years. I mean, I remember where I was when the, the Bataklan attack happened. That was, you know, hundreds of people, I believe, were killed. Actually, let me look it up. I want to get that right. 137 people were killed and over 400 people were injured in that, that happened on Friday 13th actually of November of 2015. So, you know, like, that's obviously terrorism. They're, you know, doing suicide bombings and shooting people and Doing all sorts of things. But it's not just one group or one ideology or one whatever that is capable of doing terrorism. And I think if you just are defining one group as doing the terrorism, that kind of, that's unfair, that seems biased.
- [29:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Let me give you another case. A 22 year old man was stabbed to death in a musk a mosque, pardon me, by someone who insulted Islam as he recorded the ax. And that was not considered terrorism because they said, oh, the killer just acted out of an obsessive desire to kill.
- [30:01]
Anya Cain
Oh well, if he's denigrating a specific religion while doing that, it certainly seems like that would be something to inquire about, like that he would be terroristically motivated. I guess one thing you could look at is like, yeah, I mean, I guess one thing you could look at is how much ideology is underpinning the motive. Right.
- [30:23]
Kevin Greenlee
And in our country we sometimes have hate crime legislation. And the challenge there is at some point are you punishing the act or are you punishing the person's thoughts? Because in theory, if I commit a violent crime against a minority or a female, it doesn't really matter what's in my head because I've still done the crime, I've still done the, I've still created all that suffering. And are we punishing a person for what they're thinking as they do it? Does that make it worse? Are you any more dead? If a person is thinking something differently while he does it?
- [31:03]
Anya Cain
Also you have to look at like, like I understand where hate crime legislation is coming from. Our country has this shameful history of basically white groups or individuals murdering black individuals or groups through lynchings or just violence in, you know, in the wake of the Civil War onward. Right? Jim Crow, things like that. So like, like let's get rid of that. But you know, but, but when you kind of term it as vaguely as like hate crime, you know, like, I don't know, like it just, it is kind of at some point policing thoughts. And maybe it's just more of like go really hard at people for murder in the first place. Like maybe at this point it doesn't, you know, it gets kind of complicated, I guess. And you can also be hateful of someone and not necessarily perpetuating like what, you know, like something horrible or something societal like, you know what I mean? Like is it a hate. I think a lot of men killing women, men hate women. Like a lot of men do hate women and want to kill them. Is that, is that often looked at as a hate crime? Not Really? I mean, like, that's not how we talk about it. Even if it might be also applicable.
- [32:23]
Kevin Greenlee
And things like that case of this person being killed inside a mosque and that not being considered terrorism, then that could raise questions in the minds of Muslims, like, oh, if we commit a crime, that's terrorism, but if you commit a crime against us, it's not terrorism.
- [32:37]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that seems like a double standard.
- [32:38]
Kevin Greenlee
It just gets very, very complicated. And when we go back to the. Oh, you know it. When you see it. Standard. You know, last week we talked about this case in Minnesota where Mr. Vance Bolter killed some politicians. That seemed like terrorism to me.
- [32:55]
Anya Cain
That. Yeah, that does seem like terrorism.
- [32:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Things like that seem like terrorism. It's just. It's. It's just hard to define things in a way where we can all agree with this is it, and this isn't it. And you're going to always have instances in the gray areas where people are going to disagree with your conclusions and feel you're not taking crimes against us as seriously as you take crimes when we do them.
- [33:21]
Anya Cain
I have a question with the mosque attack. Was that. Was that perpetrator. Did he have a history of targeting Muslims or hate speech against Muslims or anything like that? Did he have some kind of thing going on with that?
- [33:34]
Kevin Greenlee
The investigators say he had no ideology and only acted out of, quote, an obsessive desire to kill. But the fact that he's insulting Islam as he. As he records this.
- [33:48]
Anya Cain
He. He recorded it?
- [33:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [33:50]
Anya Cain
Did he stream it live?
- [33:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Uh, that. I don't know.
- [33:53]
Anya Cain
Well, yeah. Cause I was like, if he's streaming it or. Or something like that that he, like, wants people to see, and that kind of feels a bit. That's kind of getting into that. I know there was a case in 2016 of a French priest. I think it was Jacques Hamel, who was murdered by two people who were claiming to be acting on behalf of isis. While he was. I, you know, I think he was in the church and they killed him there and whatnot. That was. I. I recall at the time being noted as terrorism. Right. Because they're trying to strike terror and they're attacking another religion. He was a Catholic priest on behalf of isis. So, yeah, I think if you're gonna apply terminology and standards to one group, you should apply to everyone and let egalitarianism.
- [34:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Right. Let's talk about a factor that's not really discussed so far, which is that, you know, a prosecutor or a government agency, they are going. When they're trying to decide what is terrorism and what is not terrorism, they are going to pick the cases that they feel are most clear cut and easiest to win.
- [35:00]
Anya Cain
True.
- [35:01]
Kevin Greenlee
I can make the best argument that this is terrorism.
- [35:05]
Anya Cain
At the same time, it doesn't say.
- [35:07]
Kevin Greenlee
That in the definition, but that's certainly a factor in their decision.
- [35:09]
Anya Cain
I'm going to say this. If. If that guy who killed a guy in a mosque, though, has absolutely no evidence of him having any problems with Muslims before this incident, and they think he was just saying stuff to be even more horrible during the attack, I can understand why they're not bringing those charges. Because it's like we have nothing. All we have is him saying this one time. So it's like, that's. That would be a tricky position to be in as a prosecutor. You want to be. You want to be fair in egalitarian in society. But you might feel like, but I can't like, add this to my case here because we just don't really have anything. So, I mean, it's complicated. But, you know, I mean, it's definitely something I could understand being frustrated if you're in a minority group in France and being like, well, when we're attacked, it's not terrorism, so what's up with that? I mean, it's just, I can kind of understand. I can understand though, where you might not want to charge everything if you don't feel like you have the evidence.
- [36:07]
Kevin Greenlee
I guess it's time to go via channel or whatever over to England. And this is the case I found. And I said to you, I only read like the first couple of sentences of this story, the sources on cnn. And I said, anya, this is yours.
- [36:22]
Anya Cain
Yeah, no, it was really cute and I really appreciate you finding it for me because I love these old cases. And I mean old guys, old in the United States, in terms of like cold cases, we're like, wow, a case from the 1950s was solved. This is a little bit older than that. This happened in 1337 in London. So the American mind cannot fathom this. So this is really old. This is medieval, literally. And it involves a priest named John Ford, not the director. Ford has an E at the end and he's also called John Deford. So he was stabbed to death in the street in London. And basically what we have, and my source for this was cnn. And I'm also going to include a link to this kind of study. A. This, this group, this research group through the University of Cambridge's Institute of Criminology has been like, looking into and putting together like a map of the crimes of history in London. And they talk about this is, this is one where they kind of were like piecing it together. So this guy is like attacked by all of these different people. Oh. And the project is called Medieval Murder Maps. So it's an interactive digital resource. It has all of these different homicides, it has some suspicious deaths. And it covers London, York and Oxford in the 14th century. And the way they're getting that, they're taking the coroner's roles, these medieval coroner's roles, because the role of coroner is that old. They're written in Latin and they have interesting details on crimes, on motives, on what happened and what local juries had to say about them. And yeah, I just find this fascinating. This is so cool. Everyone should check out this project. But this is one that got some buzz because this priest apparently may have been having an affair with this local noblewoman, Ella Fitzpain. And she may have like what they kind of like, I guess what the coroner and what the jury kind of came up with was all these people connected to her were responsible for killing this guy. Only one of them went to prison. Surprise, surprise, it was like a servant. But what they say is, like they were all involved in this kind of crime, ring robbing, like a priory that was controlled by the French. And we're doing all this stuff. But then I guess Ford went to his, his superiors in the church and told them that Fitzpain was bad and that she was accused of committing serial adultery with clerics and, and others. She was forced to do public penance, which was obviously pretty humiliating. And then years and years later, she gets her revenge by having her brother, a chaplain and two servants go and kill him. So they kind of, they hit him, they slit his throat, they stabbed him in the stomach. And then only the, only the servant was, was convicted. His name was Hugh Colne. So he was the fall guy. But anyways, I love this. I think it's really cool. One thing that they noted is that back in that day, society was a lot more violent. We have this kind of idea of chivalry and, oh, the knights and ladies and everything's so nice and everyone has all these rules of society, but people were. The murder rate was way higher back then. And that's. It's true for most of history that when you look back, it's a lot less sanitary than you think it's going to be like. We think, oh, modern day morals are decaying. And you know, they are. But when you look at they always have been. I mean, like, it's always been a mess, you know, and just things like, you know, this guy's supposed to be a priest, he's having an affair with this lady, they're doing crimes together, then they're turning on each other. It's all very soap opera. Yeah. So I think it's cool that these researchers are doing this and you should check it out. And it's. It's awesome. Tells us a lot about history.
- [40:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Indeed it does.
- [40:47]
Anya Cain
Well, we're at the end of the cane train, slash planes journey.
- [40:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Did people. I know you have a history degree, so I'm going to ask you a couple historical questions.
- [40:59]
Anya Cain
Oh, God.
- [41:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Did people back in that era, did they wear T shirts or read printed books?
- [41:10]
Anya Cain
No. To the first one and to the second one. Not, Not. Not a lot of them.
- [41:16]
Kevin Greenlee
If I. And you may see where I'm going with this, but if.
- [41:18]
Anya Cain
I have no idea where you're going with. And I'm so confused.
- [41:21]
Kevin Greenlee
If. If a listener today wanted to, like, buy and read a printed book or wear a T shirt, would they have options?
- [41:31]
Anya Cain
They'd have some options. They'd have some options. Through us.
- [41:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Can you elaborate? It's like pulling teeth over here. Work with me.
- [41:40]
Anya Cain
We have a book about the Delphi murders and the investigation into that case coming out on August 26, 2025. So pre order now, you can go through bookshop.org, you can go through Amazon, and you can go through. I think Simon and Schuster has it on their website, probably Barnes and Nobles. You can call if you want to support your local bookstore, which we so encourage. Call your local bookstore, ask them to order it, order it through them. There's going to be an audiobook that's official, I think that's available for purchase now. And it's not going to be out until obviously later. But, you know, you can. I think you could pre order it. Can get an ebook. You can get a hardcover.
- [42:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Not only can you pre order it, but you should. Yes.
- [42:31]
Anya Cain
And it's gonna be. It's gonna be awesome. I'm really excited for y' all to read this. We'll be getting kind of little signed book plates to people who pre order. So that's. If you get an ebook, you can still have one. You can use it as your. A bookmark for other things. But I think it's. I mean, I don't know. Are you excited? I'm a bit nervous, but I'm also excited.
- [42:54]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm thrilled you're thrilled. I'm delighted you're tickled. Yes. I would go so far as to say that I am tickled.
- [43:03]
Anya Cain
Well, yeah, it's going to be great. It's. And we have kind of two ways now of getting shirts. So this is what. What? Huh?
- [43:12]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm just learning about this with you people.
- [43:14]
Anya Cain
No, you're not. You're in on this.
- [43:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Tanya's pulled a fast one.
- [43:17]
Anya Cain
No, I've not put a fast one. Good Lord. We still have shirts available through murdersheetshop.com. um, and. And that's the way we were originally doing this, but we wanted to expand our offerings to be more size inclusive and also include things like women's cut and also maybe get some of the weird memes that we all make about the murder sheet on some shirts. And. And so we're opening up our inventory and to do that, we're working with a new company. And you can go to themurder sheet.dashery.com that's T H E M U R D E R s h e e t.dashery-a s H-E-R-Y.com and you'll see kind of a couple fun offerings and again, more size inclusive. And that's something to look into, too. And so, yeah, we're going to be probably doing even more crazy T shirts just to kind of celebrate some of the fun ideas and some of the silly things that we've said over the years. So we'll be expanding those offerings and also getting into probably things like more merch or mugs or something. So if there's something you want us to include, let us know. If you have an idea for something, let us know. And we could put that together. But excited about that, but you can check that out and we'll include the link to that in our show notes. But yeah, thanks everyone for your support. Thanks for listening to us. We always appreciate hanging out with you on the Cheat Sheet on Fridays. All righty.
- [44:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Do it. Hit the button.
- [44:52]
Anya Cain
Doing it.
- [44:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [45:14]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [45:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [45:48]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.
- [46:31]
Kevin Greenlee
So it's really reduced your cravings.
- [46:33]
Anya Cain
Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get crying nuts about my cravings sometimes. I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their Hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses, and I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it, and it's going to reduce your hot flashes. You're going to have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested, for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order. @happy mammoth.com, just use the code M sheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code M sheet for 15% off today. I think you and I, Kevin, are people who always like to support a company that's giving back to the community in some key way and supporting a cause that we care about. Is that fair to say?
- [47:36]
Kevin Greenlee
That's very fair to say.
- [47:38]
Anya Cain
One cause that we care about is supporting veterans. Veterans, people who've served our country, people who have served in the military. They deserve all the support they can get when they come back and when they're adjusting to society and dealing with things like trauma. Right, right. Well, one company that's based in Austin, Texas, is Hometown Hero, and they're doing just that. They're founded by a US Veteran, and he understood, first and foremost, how trauma can affect veterans. So a portion of their profits actually goes into causes that support veterans and groups that are supporting veterans. So when you're buying one of their premium hemp products, you're actually giving back to veterans. We think that's awesome. A lot of their products have this live rosin in it. This is a cannabis concentrate that's extracted using heat and pressure. That means you're getting very pure, very good cannabis in your hemp product that you're getting from them. They ship all throughout the country. It's very discreet packaging. It goes right to your door. And you can really experiment with them because they have something for people with all sorts of levels of THC experience. They have infused chocolates, they have gummies, they've got tinctures, they've got inhalables. Basically whatever you want to try. It's a great thing for you and for even your dog. I think they have some CBD products for dogs, so it's something to really kind of check out and see if you're interested. Reclaim your evening. Visit hometownhero.com and use code msheet to take 20% off your first purchase. That's hometownhero.com code msheet for 20% off your first purchase.