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- [00:00]
A
It's fall. The air's crisp. The sky's darker. In the evening. The holidays are drawing closer. Time to bundle up and get cozy with the latest sweaters, outerwear and essential layers from Quint's.
- [00:11]
B
We love our sponsor Quint's. We shop there all the time. We love getting luxury goods for less. Quint's has prices that are 50% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman to get you quality items at a reasonable price. Washable silk tops and skirts, Italian wool coats and and of course their signature Mongolian cashmere sweaters.
- [00:34]
A
As the temperatures drop, I'm once again returning to my favorites. My black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater, both in Mongolian cashmere. I just love wearing them. I love how they feel. But I'm also mixing things up with two new purchases. One is my Mongolian cashmere fisherman crewneck sweater in ivory. It's so cozy and soft. And the other is a black 100% washable silk long sleeve mini dress that's for the holidays when I'm feeling fancy.
- [00:59]
B
I love my two new quince sweaters too. They're warm and they keep me comfortable against the autumn chill. Check them out. Also, Anya has a delightful blue beret that I love and she's begun to wear.
- [01:11]
A
I love that beret. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.commsheet you can't live the good life without good sleep. Our sponsor Cornbread Hemp crafts quality CBD gummies to help with that. And they've been aiding us in the shut eye department even when we're all wired after spending the day chasing down horrible murder cases.
- [01:51]
B
Cornbread Hemp Sleep CBD gummies have valerian root, chamomile, lavender and full spectrum hemp extract.
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A
We found that they really help us wind down. I struggle to fall asleep.
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B
I have a hard time staying asleep.
- [02:07]
A
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- [02:38]
B
Right now Cornbread Hemp is offering 30% off your first order. Just go to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code msheet at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com msheet code msheet for 30% off.
- [02:57]
A
What makes a great pair of glasses At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com hi, I'm Anya and today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about a group of college students who helped solve a decades old murder case as well as the murders of a child, a fireman and a beloved college coach. Content warning this episode contains discussion of rape, murder, murder and violence, including the rape and murder of a child. Today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about cases out of Illinois and Ohio, I guess our two neighbor. Two of our neighbors.
- [03:54]
B
Yes.
- [03:54]
A
To the east and west as well as we're going to go out to California and then Texas to discuss some of these different cases we found. Are we ready to go? Do you have anything to say?
- [04:05]
B
No. Happy, it's, it's.
- [04:07]
A
You're very stoic today.
- [04:09]
B
Thanksgiving is coming up is.
- [04:11]
A
Wait. Okay. Not this week, but next week will be the Thanksgiving.
- [04:15]
B
Yes. This would be our last chance to talk with people on Cheat sheet prior to Thanksgiving.
- [04:19]
A
Right. Because our other one will come out on Friday for all the main listeners. Although I think the. The Patreons will get get something a little bit early. So. Yeah. Happy almost Thanksgiving if you celebrate.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah.
- [04:31]
A
Anything else to say?
- [04:32]
B
No, it's just. It's a. Happy holidays. Don't you enjoy the holiday season? I do. What. What are you looking forward to most about Thanksgiving?
- [04:44]
A
Hanging out with family. What about you?
- [04:48]
B
Sure. That's.
- [04:49]
A
You're looking forward to rejecting all of the Thanksgiving traditional foods?
- [04:53]
B
Yeah, I don't like Thanksgiving foods. They're not good.
- [04:56]
A
You're in the minority there, buddy.
- [04:58]
B
I think a lot of people don't like turkey because if people like turkey, you'd have it more than just one day a year.
- [05:03]
A
I like turkey. I'm not, it's not my favorite thing, but I like it.
- [05:06]
B
It's nobody's favorite thing.
- [05:07]
A
Well, I think it's pretty good, but I, I, you know, I think you have a lot of controversial opinions on food.
- [05:15]
B
Let's get.
- [05:15]
A
That's what we're going to be talking about. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [05:19]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [05:22]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [05:24]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [05:30]
A
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Coaches and colleges sa.
- [06:20]
B
Are we starting with your Illinois case?
- [06:23]
A
Yeah, this is a very sad case out of Illinois. And my sources for this were ksdk. First alert for a press release from the Illinois State Police and NBC Chicago. So 14 year old Kylie Toberman. She was a wrestler at her school in Illinois. She was described as sassy. She loved her two sisters and, you know, so she, she was close with her family and by all accounts was a great girl. She was living in Vandalia, Illinois, and she was not living with her biological mother, Megan Zeller. She was living with her adoptive mother, Donna Toberman, and the sisters. Now, some of this is kind of pieced together through sort of this battle raging on social media about the situation. It's one of those things where you have Megan Zeller, the biological mom, posting things, accusations, recriminations, people posting accusations and recriminations against her in the comments and some of this. So I'm going to be treading with caution as we talk about this, but I do feel like some of the context is important. Zeller now claims, you know, she had no custody of her daughters. She claims that her daughter's legal guardian would not permit her to see Kylie or the two other daughters. That's what she claims. Now, this is obviously a complicated family situation. If you have a parent who's not raising the children and, you know, there can be all reasons for that. Donna Toberman herself, apparently. And again, this is from these, some of these comments and discussions. So it's unconfirmed, but it would certainly explain what happened a little bit more. Donna Toberman's son is said to be a man named Arnold B. Rivera, 43 years old. He's been listed in media sources as Kylie's step uncle. So again, complicated family situation. Rivera had a Lengthy criminal past. He was charged in 2000 with burglary and the criminal sexual abuse of a child between 9 and 16. But he did a plea deal. Those charges were dropped. And he was then, you know, charged with, I think, aggravated sexual battery in a public place. So he served 30 months for that. Then in 2008, he pled guilty to possessing a stolen vehicle, got 24 months of probation. This is all according to media reports. So this is a man who has some kind of sexual offender passed, who is seemingly potentially like, living near this Toberman residence, maybe living right behind it in his rv. That's a concerning situation to have a sexual offender around.
- [09:05]
B
Yes.
- [09:05]
A
Young, young girls. So Donna Toberman, the adoptive mother, reportedly goes out for surgery, leaves Rivera with the girls. And then Friday, November 14, 2025 at 6:34am Vandalia Police receive a report of a missing person. And if Kylie Toberman is nowhere to be found that afternoon, they find her body in a blue tote in the RV outside the home. Arnold Rivera. Police now say that Arnold Rivera and Toberman were in a car together at the time of her death. They say Rivera sexually assaulted her. And they believe that he used jumper cables to strangle her and then put her body in the toad, hid it in the rv. So the, the Fayette County State's Attorney's office filed two counts of first degree murder, one count of concealment of a homicidal death, two counts of criminal sexual assault, and one count of concealing death. And he's pending trial now. And, you know, I, I look back at the, the page, some of the Megan Zeller's postings, she's. People are recriminating her about, you know, being declared an unfit mother. People. She's recriminating Donna Toberman of letting her daughter around this person. And it's one of those things, like, I'm not weighing in. I don't know the situation. It's just, it's just a very sad situation where this man was allowed to even be around a girl. I mean, you can't. I don't think. I mean, like, I know people say, okay, second chances and whatnot. I just, I don't. That's fine and all for adults, but when it comes to who children are around, I don't think you can be too cautious.
- [10:49]
B
Right.
- [10:50]
A
Especially with, you know, with people with a record like that. So, yeah, very sad. And this lovely young girl lost her life at the hands of possibly a sexual predator. Although, of course, case is still pending. He's innocent until proven guilty, but Just a very sad situation. But a listener requested that we look at that, so thank you.
- [11:10]
B
To that listener, what was your source?
- [11:13]
A
I listed my sources at the beginning.
- [11:15]
B
I apologize.
- [11:16]
A
I guess someone was paying close attention.
- [11:19]
B
Well, I was so enraptured by the sound of your voice that perhaps I didn't listen to the actual content of your honeyed words.
- [11:30]
A
You're just looking at me so wrapped. I thought you were locked in.
- [11:36]
B
I was just thinking about that great Thanksgiving dinner going down.
- [11:40]
A
Oh, well, your parents. Yeah. You're going to get some special Kevin foods. Don't worry, folks. If you were worried about that, I assure you, Kevin will be fine. So we've gone to the west of Indiana. Shall we go east now to Ohio? Yeah, I'm.
- [11:55]
B
I'm curious, Anya, What's. What's the nickname of Ohio?
- [11:58]
A
The Buckeye State.
- [11:59]
B
What does that mean?
- [12:00]
A
I don't know, actually. I don't know.
- [12:05]
B
You're always very upset about that. We're the Hoosier State.
- [12:08]
A
I'm not upset. I'm just, you know, I'm confused. Maybe.
- [12:11]
B
Yeah. I think you should do something about some of these states nicknames.
- [12:16]
A
I should. I should do something.
- [12:18]
B
I've looked into the situation over the last few weeks. It's eaten up, as you are well aware, almost all of my free time.
- [12:25]
A
You're monitoring the situation.
- [12:28]
B
A lot of these states nicknames just aren't that good.
- [12:30]
A
Okay, wow. Are you trying to go to war with some of these states, many of whom we may have beloved listeners in?
- [12:38]
B
I'm saying the states themselves are great.
- [12:40]
A
Okay? The states are great.
- [12:41]
B
It's the nicknames that we all should work on.
- [12:44]
A
I just think you're going to end up offending a lot of people this way, and I'm not. I'm not sure if there's a point in that.
- [12:49]
B
I don't think there's a lot of people out there who have a lot emotionally invested in this.
- [12:52]
A
I think you'd be surprised. I think some of them are. You know, they're going to be. They're going to be pretty. I thought we were playing a risky game with the. The Empire State of the south the other day, and now we're just escalating. I guess that's just.
- [13:11]
B
Well, we're well known for saying whatever we think, regardless of the consequences. So I'm going into this.
- [13:17]
A
Alia Yakta est.
- [13:20]
B
Going into this new battlefield of the state nicknames. But I digress. My source for this. What I'm about to Talk about is cleveland.com and I also looked at an Ohio Supreme Court decision. Anya, as you are well aware from living with an attorney, one thing attorneys like to do is argue over definitions of words.
- [13:42]
A
Yeah, it's really fun.
- [13:44]
B
It's delightful. Everyone enjoys it. Sometimes that might seem like a trivial thing. Sometimes the consequences are really, really important. I'm curious, Anya, as just an ordinary Jane about town, how would you define the word knowingly?
- [14:01]
A
Oh, God, I don't. I hate this, because once you start thinking about stuff, you're like, what do words even mean? What does anything mean so knowingly, I guess, you know, there's a. You are aware of something, and maybe there's an intentionality that is implied by know. Like, by knowing something, by being aware. If I. So let's talk about, like, food. We were talking about Thanksgiving food. If I serve Kevin a dish that I'm not aware it has, let's say, broccoli in it, and he hates broccoli, and I didn't know that. I. I was not aware of that. I looked at it, did not see any broccoli, thought it would be fine, and gave it to him. Then when he gets very upset about there being broccoli in it, I can say, well, you know, I. I was not aware of that. I do apologize.
- [14:52]
B
But if you knowingly did it, that's different.
- [14:54]
A
Then Kevin has grounds for divorce.
- [14:57]
B
I have so many grounds. So then let's talk about as an ordinary marry on the street. What does recklessly mean? So that. That would. Maybe, you know, Kevin has a lot of food sensitivities. You know, he's not crazy about vegetables. You don't have specific knowledge about the broccoli, but maybe you just put it in there and don't. Would that be reckless in your mind?
- [15:15]
A
Reckless would be. Reckless would be like if I almost was just like, you know, maybe I. I'm aware that the person who made this dish really loves broccoli and has been talking about, you know, how healthy it is and how much nutrients it is, or if I just, like, dump a bunch of vegetables in our. In our. You know, in our fridge, into something without even looking and just make it and then whip it up and give it to you.
- [15:40]
B
So, yeah, reckless.
- [15:42]
A
It's like a disregard for the consequences.
- [15:44]
B
So both are bad. But we. It's pretty clear that knowingly doing something is worse than reckless. Is that fair? That's right. That's right.
- [15:53]
A
Definitely.
- [15:54]
B
So with all that in mind, I want to tell you about the situation in Ohio. A guy named Leander Bissell sees that there's, like, some sort of car accident on the road up ahead. It's blocked off by, like, emergency personnel. He disregards that. He just drives right through it. And in the course of doing so, he runs over and kills a firefighter named Johnny Tetric.
- [16:19]
A
Oh, my God, that's awful.
- [16:20]
B
It is awful. And so he was found guilty originally on murder charges, and then some court said, no, that doesn't fit murder. It's instead involuntary manslaughter. Because the question is, when he chose to drive and speed through that emergency scene, was he acting knowingly, intending to use his car as a potential weapon, or was he just acting recklessly, disregarding the possible consequences of his act? And that's a very crucial determination to make, because, as we've just said, reckless isn't as bad as knowingly. So if he did this recklessly instead of knowingly, his prison term would be much, much less.
- [17:06]
A
This is why people love lawyers, right? Because this is just semantics. I mean, like, I'm sorry, like, if you're driving through an accident scene that's all blocked off, aren't you knowingly doing that?
- [17:22]
B
But are you knowingly killing a person? You're obviously doing something you shouldn't be doing, but are you doing it knowing, if I do this, I'm going to kill a guy?
- [17:32]
A
You're knowingly taking people's lives into your own hands with a bad decision. So I guess I'm having trouble seeing the difference. There, I guess, is my, you know, man on the street interpretation.
- [17:46]
B
The argument would be, if you do it knowingly, you're thinking, okay, when I drive through this scene, I'm intentionally using my car as a weapon to cause serious harm, as opposed to, okay, I'm just going to drive through this scene because I'm late for work. I don't care what happens. The end results are the same in both. Because in both, you have a person, just a person doing his job as a first responder who is struck down and killed.
- [18:19]
A
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- [18:34]
B
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A
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- [19:21]
B
We've used our SimpliSafe home security system for years. It's a brand we trust. It's become a part of our lives and given us peace of mind. As true crime podcasters, we've gotten threats, so we take security seriously. We trust Simplisafe to protect our family from burglars, criminals, and anyone who might do us harm.
- [19:40]
A
Don't miss out on SimpliSafe's biggest sale of the year. 60% off. Right now, our listeners can save 60% off on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. Parlez tout francais? Hablas espanol? Parl italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com wandery spelled b a b b e l.com wandery rules and restrictions may apply did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save, and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com wondery that's greenlight.com wondery shouldn't you know, though, that driving through an active emergency scene.
- [21:17]
B
Should.
- [21:18]
A
You know that that would cause, potentially cause death if, if someone's working, like, if I drive my car into a restaurant, you know, and I maybe I didn't see anyone or maybe I didn't like, oh, I'm going for that guy. But isn't, isn't there a point where, like, if this man is not cognitively impaired in any way that he should have known.
- [21:41]
B
He should have known?
- [21:42]
A
Right.
- [21:43]
B
That's certainly one of the arguments being used by the counter would be, is should have known enough. If you're trying to say he knowingly did this to cause harm. And I think there's good arguments on both sides of this. And for the listener at home, Anya just rolled her eyes.
- [22:00]
A
I did. This is just stupid. I'm looking, I'm rolling my eyes because I'm literally looking at this article there. They said they improperly relied on the objective should have known standard rather than assessing Bissell's actual awareness. Is this guy just the dumbest man on the planet? I mean, like, like again, if he has something that's impairing him from being able to be aware of the consequences of his actions, then I stand down if he's mentally impaired in some ways because that someone in that situation may actually not know and they may not actually be, you know, so when I say stupid, I don't even, I just mean, like, maybe there's something, an issue there. And in that case, I think some leniency would be actually. Because you can't say that he knew then. Right?
- [22:45]
B
Right.
- [22:46]
A
But if he's just a normal guy, then, come on, like, I don't know, what's the courts doing?
- [22:56]
B
The court is evaluating all this. Where it stands now is the murder conviction was basically reduced to a lesser included offense. So I think involuntary manslaughter. So his sentence is reduced, the prosecutors are fighting it and their briefs are being filed and it's going to be heard by the Ohio Supreme Court. I think there's interesting arguments on both sides of it. I certainly see your point of view. I certainly see the other side as well, because one thing you have to remember in law is whatever decision you make in one case is going to affect all other cases. And do you want us to just be able to say in other cases, well, I don't have to prove that this person knew this. He should have known. So I, I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that. What do you Think, I think it's.
- [23:52]
A
Basic common sense to not drive through places that they're obviously going to be people. I, I think people should know that. This is interesting. I'm on the two newswdtn.com and this is the I team there obtained video of Bissell's arrest and a police apparently said that he had a strong odor of alcohol on him, bloodshot eyes and slurred speech. So I don't know if him being inebriated at the time of this also throws that into contention as far as should have known. Right. Because, you know, when you're drunk, sometimes your awareness and your inhibitions and your, you know, just general mode of being in the world is off. Right, right. But at the same time, I mean, I, I, I personally think that drunk drivers should be treated extremely harshly under the law. Like you're making a choice to do that and to endanger people, and that's one of the most antisocial things I think you can do. So that doesn't make me more lenient towards him. It does make me think that, you know, I don't know if there's arguments around that to be made about awareness. Right. If you're blackout drunk, awareness sometimes eludes you. But at the same time, I kind of don't feel like the law should be like, oh, okay, well, I mean, I guess that's fine then. So he was sentenced to life and now that's in. That's in, yeah.
- [25:28]
B
Okay, so, and what, because then it was reduced.
- [25:31]
A
What was it reduced to?
- [25:33]
B
I'm not sure if there's been a formal re sentencing, but the court ordered that his conviction be changed to involuntary manslaughter. The penalties for involuntary manslaughter, even first degree involuntary manslaughter, are obviously much less severe.
- [25:52]
A
Okay, well, maybe after he gets out, he can become a driver for those who professors who got him out. This guy, apparently, according to this 2News thing, has a history of domestic violence, multiple felony drug cases. He's been busted for impaired driving once before and 11 other traffic tickets since 2004. So they definitely picked a real winner here.
- [26:14]
B
I think the important thing to remember again is that a decision made in one case affects all cases. No one is defending this man. No one is defending what he did. No one is suggesting that he not be incarcerated for what he did for a very long time. The question is, is what he did involuntary manslaughter or is it murder? And I frankly am not sure based on what I've seen. If it is murder.
- [26:43]
A
I think it's murder. But I understand what you're saying.
- [26:48]
B
Shall we move on?
- [26:49]
A
Yeah, let's go to Texas. No, we're not going to Texas. We're going to California. We're going to end in Texas.
- [26:57]
B
Is California the Golden State?
- [26:59]
A
It is the Golden State.
- [27:01]
B
That's fine.
- [27:02]
A
That's a nice name because I know.
- [27:04]
B
Exactly what that means. I don't have to ask embarrassing questions.
- [27:08]
A
You don't have to ask embarrassing questions about any of the state's names.
- [27:12]
B
Is it, is it because of like the sunshine is golden on the beaches or what is it?
- [27:18]
A
Something like that.
- [27:19]
B
Oh, maybe the Sutter's mill. Right, the 1848 gold rush.
- [27:23]
A
Right, the Gold Rush. Well, that's, yeah, that might be it too. I think you're sleuthing things out over there just like the college students.
- [27:30]
B
If that's, don't, don't get ahead of us spoilers. Shouldn't we have a more up to date state model? Because that was over a hundred years ago, close to 200 years ago.
- [27:43]
A
It's still a Golden State because it's sunny. Right? I think you're thinking too much about this. I think you're stressing yourself out about this.
- [27:51]
B
I think nothing is more important than this issue. But continue. What are your sources?
- [27:56]
A
NBC News, the San Francisco Chronicle and the San Francisco Standard. So some of you, some of you listening or, or some of your, your husbands or families or whatever may have watched the Last Chance you an American documentary television series from Netflix. It's, I don't really understand football or a lot of sports, but I guess it's about like college, like students who are attending almost like usually like a community college or a junior college who want to play in like major college athletics. And you know, like with community colleges you can kind of go there for one or two years and then transfer. And so what I, what I think this show is about is essentially college kids doing that. So each season they, you know, they go to different schools where they're doing that and they kind of show what, what's in their lives. The fifth season of the series focused on Laney College in Oakland, California. It premiered July 28, 2020. 2020. And Laney College in Oakland, it's a public community college. It offers associate of arts degrees and then, and then whatever you need to potentially transfer to a four year university. And those of you who watched Last Chance U will recognize the name of Coach John Beam. He was the coach of the football team at Laney College for many years. He was 66 years old he had a wife and two kids. He played football in high school and then at San Diego Mesa College and started out as an offensive line coach at Sarah High School in San Diego, went to become the defensive coordinator at Oakland Skyline High School, and then became the head football coach there in 2012. So. Oh, and I'm sorry. Head football coach there, and then in 2012, became the head coach at Laney College. So he had a successful career as a coach. Last year, he retired from coaching at Laney College, but he stayed on as an athletic director. And he was just very well known and beloved within the community. So he was like a popular figure. He was seen as someone who's giving back a lot to the community, and people really liked him. Then we have this man, Cedric Irving Jr. Who's 27 years old. Irving played football at the high school where Beam previously coached, but that was a decade after Beam's tenure there. And he was also. So he's the student at Skyline High School, student athlete there. He was also. He also did the track team there. He also later attended Laney College, but he didn't play football there. The two of them knew each other. Beam and Irving apparently didn't know each other. They were not close, but they, they. They knew each other. Um, Irving went on to become a security guard. According to his brother, he had some kind of altercation with a woman and lost that job. He went to work at a Domino's. At some point, he broke contact with his family. They thought he was living by himself in an apartment. Police say he may have been homeless. Investigators. You know, so, so, so what happened? This all comes to a head on Thursday, November 13, 2025. Irving goes to Laney College. Around noon, he goes into the field house where Beam was. He walks up the stairs. According to media reports, Beam was heard to yell, no, no, no. And then he was shot by Irving. Irving then fled on an AC Transit bus heading from downtown Oakland toward East Montmal. And that's apparently where he was living unhoused. Beam succumbed to his injuries at the hospital the following day. Unfortunately, he had been shot, I believe. Yeah, he shot and he, like, lingered for a day, but then died. Irving was tracked by police. They had surveillance images. They have, you know, just different pictures. This guy was, like, had the hood of his jacket pulled up, but they were still able to kind of track him down using this surveillance. And they. Apparently an Alameda county sheriff's deputy recognized him, and they. At 3:15am on Friday near the San Leandro BART station, they arrested him. He had a handgun in a bag. He apparently made incriminating statements or even perhaps full fledged confessions. He said that he believed Beam was using witchcraft on him and others people have told the media that he was fixated on Beam, apparently. Now, some things about Irving. He had no criminal history that's been found yet as as far as it's currently November 19th, I'm not aware of anyone finding any criminal history on him. He seemingly had this gun registered to him, at least according to Alameda County District Attorney Ursula Jones Dixon. And this was a very targeted hit, apparently. So. Dixon has said that her office is going to reinstitute mandatory minimum sentences for gun convictions. When Irving's father was approached by reporters, he said, we all loved Coach Beam. And then he broke down crying after he learned that his son was accused of this crime. Now so, yeah, I mean, it's obviously a really tragic situation. It seems like if he thought there was witchcraft on him, this could be a mental illness issue. This could be like a not guilty by in reason of insanity situation, if that's even true. Right?
- [33:24]
B
Yes.
- [33:24]
A
It would have to all be analyzed by experts and come out in court. But at the end of the day, it sounds like a really great guy lost his life for no reason. And that's incredibly tragic. What do you think?
- [33:35]
B
Yeah, it's very, very tragic. It's very upsetting.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah. The fact that someone could be so troubled that they potentially like lapse into mental illness to the point where they think people are cursing them and that they have to kill them to stop the witchcraft and that they can't be intercepted and helped before it gets that far.
- [33:54]
B
There's a real mental health crisis in the country.
- [33:56]
A
Yeah, I think we have gun problems in this country, but I also think we have mental health problems. And like, again, like, it's in a situation like that, it's like Cedric Irving can't necessarily help the way he is, but that doesn't really absolve any responsibility. So we have to intercept people in that situation before they can hurt others and ruin their lives, ruin the person they're killing lives, ruin the family's lives. I mean, like, it has to, there has to be interventions long before he's going into that field house. And you know, again, like, sometimes people fake it. So I'm not saying that this is definitely what's going to happen. Maybe further revelations will clarify things more, I don't know. But as of November 19, this is where things stand. And it's just very disturbing and scary because I don't if he obtained this gun legally and he has no criminal history, those obvious red flags, you know, weren't necessarily there, that make it kind of okay, like, this guy shouldn't have gotten a gun. I mean, if he has no criminal history, why shouldn't he get a gun under, you know, under our rights? Right?
- [35:04]
B
Yes.
- [35:05]
A
How do you stop that?
- [35:06]
B
How do you stop that? And I've said many times on the show, I'm not a gun guy, but the thing to keep in mind is that a person's right to have weapons is actually listed in our Bill of Rights. And so you have to be very careful and very targeted about how exactly you impose limitations on how a person writes, as is outlined in the Bill of Rights, are affected. Certainly you still can. The First Amendment is freedom of speech. There are certainly limits on freedom of speech, and there probably should be, obviously, limits on the Second Amendment as well. But you just have to be very careful about how you impose them and how you put them into practice.
- [35:58]
A
So it's a situation where I agree with the prosecutor bringing back mandatory minimums on gun offenses. I think that's common sense. It wouldn't have helped here. No, it wouldn't have helped here. So it's kind of a separate issue. And I see why they're doing it, but it's like, it, that's, that's what's scary when you get to these situations where it's like, what can be done? And all I can think of is reducing the stigma around mental illness so people can kind of like, ask for help quicker. And then in cases where people aren't asking for help, almost having it be a situation where people can be forced to be in treatment. And again, that's also potentially a violation of rights. So I, I, it's, it's complicated. It's not just a simple fix. You have to make sure that, you know, you don't want situations where, like, you know, oh, my wife's crazy, I'm going to commit her. You know, I mean, I certainly wouldn't want Kevin to be able to do that to me.
- [36:55]
B
I've looked into it.
- [36:57]
A
He's trying. We gotta stop him, folks. But no, I mean, in all seriousness, you don't want that. But you, but you also don't want this. So it's, it's just that all around.
- [37:10]
B
Move on to the Texas, the Lone Star State. My sources for this are the independent.com nbcnews.com and a press release from the Arlington, Texas Police Department. Before I get into it, I have to say that when I went to the website of the city of Arlington in order to get that press release, I actually saw this with my own eyes what their motto is for the city. And I liked it so much I put it in our notes. It's Arlington, the American Dream City. See, that's how you do it.
- [37:46]
A
I love that.
- [37:48]
B
And it makes me think you were just saying, Kevin, you don't have the power to fix the broken system of state mottos, but maybe we can lead by example. Why don't we have a motto for the podcast? This is like as good as the American Dream City.
- [38:06]
A
The American Dream podcast.
- [38:08]
B
We can't. I don't think you're taking this process seriously. I think we should give this some thought. Maybe people can send in suggestions. I just don't want it to be something that doesn't make sense. Like the Frangipaney podcast. No one knows what that means. A lot of the Buckeye State people say what's a Buckeye Frangipani? I want us to have a little motto.
- [38:31]
A
The Empire Podcast of the Midwest.
- [38:36]
B
I think we should give this some serious thought. Arlington is showing us the way. It's the American Dream City.
- [38:42]
A
I think we need to ask our listeners for some help on America Murder Sheet motto. I think we're gonna get some pretty insulting suggestions now that I think about it. So send us your insulting and non insulting suggestions. Murdersheet gmail.com or post it in our Facebook group.
- [39:01]
B
But don't. Don't you. The American dreams. Does that make you want to go there, see and see what Arlington's all about?
- [39:07]
A
You think it's like the city of the future, don't you?
- [39:11]
B
That's like a completely different model. You're not paying attention. It's the city of the American dream.
- [39:17]
A
You're really susceptible to branding, aren't you?
- [39:21]
B
I'm just saying we need. And then maybe the states would say, oh, the Murder Sheet podcast, their motto is so good. We should do the same sort of thing.
- [39:31]
A
Like the state, the governors of the different state. I don't know who would change the legislators or the governor would change the motto. They're, they're going to be sitting around listening to Murder Sheet as they often do and they, they are going to have a, have a think on this and then. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.
- [39:46]
B
Or the people, it could be like a storming the bastille situation.
- [39:49]
A
Oh, okay. So we're going to like incite violence.
- [39:52]
B
And out of touch leaders were say let them eat buckeyes.
- [39:56]
A
Oh my God. She Totally lost it. So we're inciting violence against the state on this podcast in order to change mottos that no one thinks about except for you. That's where things have gone in this episode. That's the conclusion.
- [40:11]
B
So let me tell you about this case.
- [40:13]
A
Yeah, let's. Yeah. You have nothing to say on that? Go ahead.
- [40:18]
B
This is a case, the murder out of Arlington, Texas, the American dream city. This is a murder that happened all the way back in September of 1991. A 25 year old named Cynthia Gonzalez went missing. She left her home to go meet with a client. She was an adult entertainer and never seen again. Her vehicle was found abandoned shortly thereafter. And then a few days later, her body is discovered. No arrests made in the case until November 6, 2025. Someone was arrested. Janie Perkins. There are indications that the motive for the crime may have involved jealousy over a man. Now, the reason I wanted to highlight this case is the way it was solved. I'm saying solved. Let's for the moment assume that Ms. Perkins is guilty and will be convicted. Obviously there's a presumption of innocence. The way it was solved was very interesting. The police in Arlington basically indicated, you know, we don't have the time or resources to go through a lot of these old cold case files, but obviously the work is important and should be done. And so they gave access to their files to students in a criminology class at a university in the area. And it was those students who went through these old case files who said, oh, here's a lead that needs to be pursued. It's been missed, hasn't been developed enough. And then when detectives pursued that lead and pulled some threads on it, that's when the case was made against this person. So I'm curious, what is your reaction to this, Ms. Kane?
- [42:20]
A
I think it's wonderful. I think this is great practice for the criminology students and it's great resources for the police. I think obviously you, you know, when you involve civilians in something like this, you want to make sure that everything is being done properly and appropriately.
- [42:38]
B
That's my concern. Almost exactly what, what I was going to say is I think I'd really like to take a good look at this because a lot of. There's a lot of cold cases out there. Yes, there's a lot of cold cases that unfortunately cannot be solved by DNA. When we see about cold cases being solved these days, it often seems to be about DNA. There's a lot of cold cases that don't fit that criteria for One reason or another. And they're only going to be solved by old fashioned police work, which police departments who are already badly overstretched may not have the resources to do so. I would like to see this model be used in other communities, but I am curious about things like privacy because if you have any knowledge of what ends up in a murder book or a murder file, people will call in and they will say all sorts of things about others, things that may or may not be true. And so there will almost certainly be things in these old case files of an extremely personal nature about individuals had nothing to do with the crime.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah, true.
- [43:52]
B
How can you allow people to have access to those bits of information without violating people's privacy? And how can you be sure that no student is going to like take out a phone and like take a picture of something and share it? Those are my, those are my concerns.
- [44:09]
A
You'd have to have essentially some sort of NDA, I would think, or you know, some sort of non disclosure agreement or some, some sort of professional understanding that that was not going to happen. You'd have to do this in a controlled way. And also you'd have to make sure that no one was kind of coming into this for the wrong reasons to maybe like, you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm. This, this, I'm, this didn't happen here. I'm just paranoid. So you wouldn't want a situation where you have someone come in and try to basically push things in one direction. Yeah, you'd have to be, you'd have to make, there would have to be parameters in place to ensure that. Hey, we're just providing a suggestion based on our review of the case file. These are the leads that seem promising that you should focus your energy on since you don't have time to go through all of it. That seems reasonable. It can't be like, hey, I think it's this lady, you know, like, I mean like, and so that's, you want to make sure people's rights are being violated. I would love to see this model, as you said, be employed throughout the country as long as it's done in a responsible way. I think having students who are like criminologists do it makes sense because they're, they're going into that with like some level of understanding about some of this. But you know, even in other cases, like retired law enforcement people, civilian volunteers who may have some awareness, you know, you can, you can do this, but, but there it has to be done right. Not saying that it was done wrong here. It just more of like we're talking about it in a somewhat critical way because we would like to see this expanded.
- [45:35]
B
Yeah. And you have to try to identify potential problems. One thing I like about this, the fact that the students involved were in a, students in a department of criminology and criminal justice makes me think that those are people who are aware of some of these privacy issues and have more of a professional approach. And if you're taking classes in that kind of a department, you hope to have a career in that area. And so you wouldn't want to jeopardize your career by violating privacy. Maybe the key is let's use college students in the specialized area. But I think this could potentially be a model that could be used elsewhere to really great benefit.
- [46:18]
A
Yeah, I agree. I'm really excited about this and I love that they are looking at this with like, because again as you said, like DNA is wonderful, but DNA is not a catch all to solve everything. And we can't expect it to be cases where DNA is not going to be a thing. And you still, those cases still deserve justice. So I'm, I'm loving what they're doing here. Again, you know, some, some things where it's like we would want to make sure this is all done well just so it can kind of continue to be possibly a vehicle for, for, for change and for, you know, good outcomes. But so it sounds like basically that there was this, this Perkins woman who they identified as a possibly good lead that the police now feel like did. It was essentially, it sounds like this was a situation where she, they talked to her again and witnesses said that she admitted to them that she was involved in the murder and provided specific details potentially known only to the killer. So yeah, I mean that's something that you're not gonna get from DNA. But that, that could be pretty damning against somebody, obviously assuming, you know, innocent until proven guilty. But nonetheless that's something that would need. You need to have someone reviewing all the multitude leads to uncover that.
- [47:30]
B
Right. So I.
- [47:33]
A
Good stuff.
- [47:34]
B
Are we done?
- [47:35]
A
I think we're done. Are we? So now what?
- [47:39]
B
Well, it can't be like the murder sheet, the Athens of the podcast, because we don't want it to be, we don't want it to be derivative.
- [47:47]
A
The Athens of the podcast. Do you hear yourself?
- [47:52]
B
That's derivative. We need to have something.
- [47:55]
A
No, it's not derivative. It's literally insane.
- [47:59]
B
Well, because, because I don't know if you realize it but you know, Columbus, Indiana, my Hometown is known as the Athens of the Prairies.
- [48:04]
A
Oh, you don't.
- [48:04]
B
So if we change it to Athens, the podcast people say you're just copying Columbus.
- [48:09]
A
Yeah, wouldn't want that.
- [48:12]
B
No, because Columbus stands. Stands unique.
- [48:15]
A
Yeah. That's why it's comparing itself to Athens, which is definitely not a real place.
- [48:23]
B
So not this Saturday, but next Saturday, my birthday, we're going to the Indiana Historical Society for some sort of author's book fair.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah. If you go to murdersheetpodcast.com murder sheet events, or rather just murdersheetpodcast.com events, then you'll see Saturday, December 6th, in Indianapolis, Indiana. We will be signing books at the 2025 Holiday Author Fair from. From noon to 4pm you got to click there to get your tickets. And that's going to be going down at the Eugene and Marilyn Glick Indiana History Center. Get your tickets. It's going to be fun. This is like the last one we're doing, at least in 2025.
- [49:02]
B
And just so there's no misunderstanding, even though it's called a fair, my understanding is there's not going to be any rides or games of chance. Is that your understanding as well? Yeah, because I would hate to have people get a ticket and think, oh, I'm gonna get to play skeeball. And I don't think that is that kind of fair.
- [49:23]
A
Should we, like, bring, like, something to do, like a three card Monty situation for. For everyone's entertainment, just to make up for that?
- [49:30]
B
So where does she. The con men of podcasts. No, no, I don't. I don't think that. That's not. That's not how we want to do it.
- [49:39]
A
Bad for the brand.
- [49:40]
B
I'm just letting people know, you know.
- [49:41]
A
I will say, you know, it is Kevin's birthday, so birthday tributes are encouraged, if not recommended, if not requ. To approach our table. Obviously, we'll need to bring gifts to Kevin, right?
- [49:56]
B
Yeah. This was. This also was the fifth anniversary of our podcast this week. It's tough to celebrate the fifth anniversary of the podcast, even though I indicated I would have liked to because we debuted on a tragic day, which is the anniversary of the Berger Chef murder. So does it really seem to be a day for celebration?
- [50:16]
A
It's not.
- [50:18]
B
But I do want to mention it's been a wonderful five years with you.
- [50:21]
A
Aw.
- [50:24]
B
My birthday is a great day in December. Here's a fun fact. There's another day in December which is also an important day. Do you know what that is?
- [50:32]
A
No. Frank Sinatra's birthday Obviously.
- [50:35]
B
Okay, so we couldn't celebrate our five year anniversary. We should do something special for Frank Sinatra's birthday, the happiest day of the year.
- [50:47]
A
You're so insane. I love it. Oh, man. I. I want to say it's been a really wonderful five years with you as well, you know, with the podcast, as well as our marriage. But, yeah, you're great to work with. And. And I also want to say it's been really nice not to get all cheesy here, but it has been really nice to get to know some of you listeners. People have reached out to us, people who've reached out on Facebook, on email, on wherever. People who kind of stuck around with us and repeated back to us the bizarre things we say about the Athens of the Prairies and various other strange utterances that we make it. It has really been delightful. I just. I want to say I'm really grateful for all of you, so thank you.
- [51:24]
B
Thank you very much.
- [51:25]
A
Are we done on that cheat? Do you have a. Do you have an anecdote?
- [51:28]
B
I thought we were stopping that.
- [51:30]
A
There's one that we were talking about that I said, I think you should share with them.
- [51:33]
B
Yeah, we were talking again. This is. This is something that seemed inappropriate to share. The other.
- [51:38]
A
Well, we're not going to share it in that context, but you can share it.
- [51:41]
B
I'll share it now. Because you talk about, you know, home invasions or people breaking into your apartment.
- [51:47]
A
Yeah. And Kevin's like, I was home invaded once. And I'm like, what. What did this, like, happen while I was grocery shopping and like, you went through a whole home invasion before I got back. What happened? Because, I mean, frankly, that wouldn't surprise me.
- [52:00]
B
It's one of those stories that sounds like more interesting, the summary than the actual story itself, but I certainly will share it with the understanding. It's not interesting.
- [52:11]
A
It is interesting.
- [52:12]
B
This is in my. I don't remember if this was when I was an undergraduate or in law school, but I went to undergraduate in law school at the same institution. I lived off campus.
- [52:23]
A
Iu. Go Hoosiers.
- [52:25]
B
We're the Hoosiers. State.
- [52:26]
A
Yes. And we're doing really well at football. Yay.
- [52:31]
B
I lived in an apartment off campus and I kept kind of unusual hours, like to stay up really late and then sleep through often into late morning or early afternoon.
- [52:41]
A
Jesus.
- [52:41]
B
Kevin and I lived in an apartment where the layout is. I would be in my bedroom. The door of the bedroom, if it's open, looks into a hallway that then goes into the front room. And then you can see the front door. And so I'm sound asleep. It must be, I'm guessing, maybe like 11am I'm under a bunch of covers, there's a pounding on my door. And, you know, my thinking is, this probably isn't important, or if it is important, they'll come back later or leave a note. So I'm just going to ignore it. It'll stop, and then I'll go back to sleep. Because getting up at 11, I mean, come on. So that's my thought process and such as it is, and I'm correct, the knocking does stop. And what happens next is a little bit more surprising because I hear the door open and I hear voices.
- [53:43]
A
Was the door unlocked?
- [53:44]
B
No, it was locked. And I then kind of raise up and I wear glasses. I squint in the distance. I go. Because I'd recently been asleep. And the people up front say, oh, we were just doing maintenance work, we'll come back later, sorry. And they're out of there in a flash.
- [54:07]
A
So you took care of the issue?
- [54:09]
B
I took care of the issue. And then as it turns out, subsequent investigation on my part revealed, number one, the office hadn't sent anybody to do maintenance. And a number of other apartments in that particular row I lived on were burgled that morning.
- [54:28]
A
Okay, so your sleuthing came a little late for your neighbors.
- [54:33]
B
But I successfully fended off the home invaders.
- [54:38]
A
Okay. That's why I keep you around.
- [54:41]
B
Because I think basically they just thought, well, we just want to rob empty places. And they say, oh, this place isn't empty. We're not going to bother.
- [54:48]
A
I'm very glad they didn't kill you. That would have been very bad. But I.
- [54:53]
B
There would have been a lot of egg on my face.
- [54:56]
A
Or something else. I. Yeah, that's. That. That's so insane. That would have freaked me really out if that happened to me. But you, you, you're just, just good humor about it.
- [55:09]
B
Just a little anecdote.
- [55:13]
A
I'm glad you offended them off. I think this does say something though, about like how. How non paranoid you are versus me. Because I think if that happened to me, I would be calling some people immediately and be like, what's going on here? And then it probably would turn out to be maintenance people. Calm down.
- [55:29]
B
No, I went back to sleep. And then it's like a few hours later, I get up and I think one of my neighbors is standing out front talking to a police officer.
- [55:37]
A
Oh, Jesus.
- [55:38]
B
And that's where things inside me. I start putting the pieces together through some conversations.
- [55:45]
A
You're a brilliant witness, Sam. You embellish it to make it sound like you're fighting them off. Oh, no. Oh, well, thank you for sharing that, Kevin.
- [55:59]
B
So the reason I didn't share that story with you before, I just told any of the story for the first time, is it's really not a very interesting story.
- [56:05]
A
Well, it's. I mean, it's. It says something about you, I guess. All right, well, I guess we're done for that. Well, thanks everyone for listening to Cheat Sheet and happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.
- [56:19]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [56:39]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [57:02]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [57:14]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [57:43]
B
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A
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B
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A
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