The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - "The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles
• Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
• Release Date: March 14, 2025
• Podcast Description: The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast that takes a journalistic approach to covering both high-profile and obscure crime cases, offering in-depth coverage, legal analysis, and thoughtful interviews.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode titled "The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles" delves into intricate true crime cases across various states, focusing on the roles of confidential informants in legal proceedings and examining complex murder cases that intertwine personal relationships and criminal intent.

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2. Case Study: Judge Jeffrey Ferguson's Trial in California

Overview: Judge Jeffrey Ferguson, an Orange County Superior Court Judge, was charged with the murder of his wife. The case garnered significant attention due to Ferguson's position within the judicial system and the intense scrutiny it brought upon the legal proceedings.

Key Discussions:

• Trial Outcome: The jury resulted in a hung verdict with an 11-1 vote leaning towards conviction, leading to a mistrial. The judge then attempted to re-convene the jury, which ultimately declared a mistrial.

  Kevin Greenlee (04:32): "It is the case of Orange County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Ferguson, who shot and killed his wife... he would face a pretty stiff penalty."

• District Attorney's Statement: Todd Spitzer, the District Attorney, viewed the hung jury as a partial victory, emphasizing the strong inclination towards conviction.

  Kevin Greenlee (07:57): "Orange County District Attorney Todd Spitzer said the hung jury was a victory. 11 to 1 for guilty is a phenomenal success, he told reporters."

• Ferguson's Defense: Ferguson claimed the shooting was unintentional, portraying the incident as a result of a heated argument where he misunderstood his wife's pleas to put down the gun.

  Kevin Greenlee (10:12): "He thought, well, I'm just gonna do what she says to make peace and pull out the gun to set it down. But somehow, despite his experience with guns, he accidentally fired it."

Insights: The case underscores the complexities within the legal system, especially when a defendant holds a significant judicial position. The predominance of jurors leaning towards conviction reflects public perception and the weight of evidence presented.

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3. Tragic Incident: Hyperbaric Chamber Explosion in Michigan

Overview: A devastating incident occurred in Royal Oak, Michigan, where a five-year-old boy, Thomas Cooper, died due to a hyperbaric chamber explosion at a treatment center in Troy. The facility was employing unapproved treatments for ADHD and sleep apnea, leading to severe safety lapses.

Key Discussions:

• Charges Filed: Three individuals were charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter, including the facility owner, Tamla Peterson, the safety manager, Jeffrey Mosteller, and the primary management assistant, Gary Margan. The operator of the chamber was charged with involuntary manslaughter and falsifying medical records.

  Kevin Greenlee (20:16): "Three people have been charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter... they did not really put a high priority on safety."

• Safety Violations: Testimonies revealed neglect in following safety protocols, such as the absence of grounding straps to prevent static electricity fires and improper use of flammable materials inside the chambers.

  Kevin Greenlee (28:15): "They would regularly go into that and roll the numbers back like it's a car you're selling."

• Facility's Practices: The Michigan Attorney General condemned the center for using hyperbaric chambers on children repeatedly with unaccredited treatments solely for profit.

  Kevin Greenlee (23:41): "The Attorney General of Michigan, Dana Nessel, said the center used the machines... to provide unaccredited and debunked so-called treatments."

Insights: This case highlights the dangers of unregulated medical treatments, especially those administered to vulnerable populations like children. It emphasizes the importance of stringent safety standards and ethical practices in healthcare facilities.

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4. Legal Repercussions: Brittany Marlo Holberg's Conviction Overturned in Texas

Overview: Brittany Marlo Holberg, previously convicted of murdering her 80-year-old husband, Ab Towery, has seen her conviction thrown out after 27 years on death row. The annulment centers around the undisclosed use of a confidential informant during her trial.

Key Discussions:

• Role of Confidential Informant: Vicki Marie Kirkpatrick, a confidential informant (CI), testified that Holberg plotted the murder for financial gain. It was later revealed that her status as a CI was not disclosed to the defense, violating legal transparency.

  Kevin Greenlee (35:56): "It's entirely possible that a person who is a paid confidential informant is telling the absolute truth... or they might stretch the truth."

• Impact on Conviction: The omission of Kirkpatrick's status as a CI compromised the defense's ability to cross-examine her testimony effectively, leading to questions about the integrity of the original trial.

  Anya Cain (37:18): "I completely agree. That has to be given to the jury, that has to be given to the defense."

• Court of Appeals' Stance: A judge on the court of appeals expressed frustration, suggesting that even if Holberg were impeached, her chances of securing a conviction on retrial would remain slim.

  Kevin Greenlee (37:31): "If imagination hadn't impeached her, there's zero chance that a jury would have credited Holberg's laughable claim of self-defense."

Insights: The case underscores the critical importance of full disclosure regarding witness qualifications in legal proceedings. The misuse or non-disclosure of confidential informants can severely undermine justice, leading to wrongful convictions or prolonged legal battles.

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5. Nevada's "Cuddle Puddles" Case: Soliciting Murder

Overview: In Nevada, Victoria Goodwin, a star of the show Ghost Adventures, was arrested for soliciting the murder of her husband. She engaged with an inmate in Florida, plotting to end her marriage through lethal means.

Key Discussions:

• Plot Development: Goodwin fell in love with the inmate, developing fantasies of a life together, which fueled her desire to eliminate her husband to facilitate this relationship.

  Kevin Greenlee (44:32): "She was communicating with an inmate in Florida... she fell in love with him and started dreaming of a future with him."

• Legal Proceedings: Goodwin was charged with willfully plotting her husband's murder, highlighting the severity of her intentions and the calculated nature of her actions.

  Kevin Greenlee (44:29): "She was communicating with an inmate in Florida... she started talking about having her husband killed."

• Psychological Aspect: The episode touches upon hybristophilia, a paraphilia where individuals become romantically interested in criminals, which may have influenced Goodwin's actions.

  Anya Cain (46:08): "There's a term called hybristophilia, where people romanticize criminals... it's documented with cases like Ted Bundy."

Insights: This case illustrates the psychological complexities that can drive individuals to commit heinous acts, especially when influenced by dysfunctional emotional attachments. It emphasizes the need for mental health awareness and the dangers of idealizing criminal behavior.

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6. Concluding Thoughts and Ethical Considerations

Throughout the episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee explore the multifaceted nature of true crime, emphasizing the ethical responsibilities of both legal systems and media in portraying and handling such cases. They advocate for transparency in legal proceedings, the necessity of adhering to safety protocols in medical treatments, and the importance of addressing psychological factors that influence criminal behavior.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain (07:33): "If it's 11 to 1 in your favor, whatever side you're on, that's looking pretty good for the next go around."

• Kevin Greenlee (32:42): "It's a way to feel like I am learning from this and I will now not do those things and I'm inputting data so that I will not be murdered."

• Áine Cain (39:32): "What a horrible situation. And I'm sure, like, there's a lot of... a lot of guilt on the family side."

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7. Final Remarks

"The Cheat Sheet: Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles" episode of The Murder Sheet offers a deep dive into complex true crime cases, shedding light on the interplay between personal motives, legal intricacies, and ethical considerations. Through meticulous analysis and thoughtful discussion, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the cases, encouraging a more informed and compassionate perspective on true crime narratives.

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the content-rich segments of the episode, omitting advertisements, intros, outros, and non-essential discussions to deliver a clear and concise overview of the key topics covered.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

I should say here at the top that Anya is putting the absolute Finishing touches on our book. And so this cheat sheet has been entirely my responsibility. So she gets a pass.

[Anya Cain]

If it's bad, I get a pass. If it's really good, I get no credit.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If it's really good, maybe there'd be a groundswell for you to be removed from the process altogether. Maybe that's what people want.

[Anya Cain]

Fine. If that's what you guys want, then fine. I'm not mad at all and just really hurt. This is already going off the rails, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So today we'll talking about cases from California, Michigan, Nevada, and the great state.

[Anya Cain]

Of Texas slide from our northern neighbor, Michigan. It's very western centric. Episode.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right. All right, well, because I was planning the episode, I tried to pick places close together so we wouldn't go bankrupt on the cane train.

[Anya Cain]

Not the cane train again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I planned it. I planned out a route that I thought made more sense.

[Anya Cain]

Michigan kind of is. I don't know. It's a bit far flung, but I guess the other ones are okay. Texas is a big state, as is California, so I don't know. I'd have to map this out, see if the cane trains can save money. Why am I letting you do another thing like this to me? First the cereal and now this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I had to spend a lot of time this. This week raising the money to pay for your travel expenses from last week. Oh, my God. It's also part of the reason I took over. But let's push the button and start.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, gosh. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the cheat sheet. Confidential Informants and Cuddle Puddles.

[Anya Cain]

I just want to say, Kevin, before we get started, I appreciate your adorable pick for the episode title for this episode.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you very much.

[Anya Cain]

Very adorable. I'm sure it's gonna have some horrifying connotation that we're gonna learn about suddenly, but Little Cuddles. That's. That's cute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, thank you for that. I'd like to start out in California. This is a case that we've come back to the last couple of weeks. It is the case of Orange County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Ferguson, who shot and killed his wife. No doubt about the fact that this man pulled the trigger of a gun that was fired and killed his wife. The question that the jury had to Wrestle with was how responsible he was for this. Was it intentional? And he made some interesting comments immediately afterwards in text messages and such that he sent to people indicating, oh, I lost it. I shot and killed my wife. Things of that nature. So to a lot of people, maybe it doesn't sound like that difficult of a case, but also the fact of the matter is, if he had been convicted, he would face a pretty stiff penalty.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, that's kind of what typically happens when you shoot and kill somebody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So basically, we summarized the case, I think, a couple weeks ago, and then last week, there was what I thought was a very odd update. It looked like it was heading towards a mistrial. It was a hung jury. And so the judge took the unusual step of bringing the jury back in and giving counsel for the prosecution and the defense another 10 minutes to make some more closing arguments.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That didn't work out so well. And a mistrial ended up being declared.

[Anya Cain]

What was the breakdown?

[Kevin Greenlee]

11 to 1 for conviction.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, that sounds about right. Right? I mean, I'm sorry. I thought this was a pretty obvious case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought it was a pretty obvious.

[Anya Cain]

Case, and somebody doesn't want to send sad grandpa to prison for life. That's what that sounds like. And I understand that it's a pretty big deal, but I. The facts, as they have been described, have been pretty brutal on him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm going to read something from the NBC News coverage. Quote, Orange County District attorney Todd Spitzer said the hung jury was a victory. 11 to 1 for guilty is a phenomenal success, he told reporters.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, why did you read it like that? That's a little too much. It's not a victory, but it's definitely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a phenomenal success.

[Anya Cain]

We did it, guys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can think of something that would have been an even greater success, I think.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, they all, like, started hootering and hollering. Yeah, we did it. No, I think they probably would have preferred him to get convicted, but I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Remember Anya and I used to. Way back in the Brooklyn days, we'd occasionally. Those dark days, we'd occasionally watch this ridiculous show featuring the tendency wraith chasers, where.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I loved that show.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Every week, they would go and hunt for ghosts. This may be relevant a little bit later in the program. Every week, they would go and hunt for ghosts, and they would never find the ghosts because, of course, there are no ghosts.

[Anya Cain]

Ghosts don't exist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So every week, they would fail. But at the end of every episode, the wraith chaser leader would say, well, actually, even though we failed in all of our stated goals, it was really a success. And that's what I thought of when I read that statement. I understand 11 to 1 for conviction is a lot better than 11 to 1 for acquittal.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I mean, that would have probably been a sign that you probably shouldn't retry it. Um, I. I mean, yeah, there's a certain level of, you know, PR spin there going on, but I. I mean, it's certainly. It certainly puts them in the realm of, like, it sounds like whatever hold out, you know, that may have been. Who knows? You know, you. You could have someone with a, you know, a good reason for holding out. You can have someone with a bad reason for holding out. It doesn't really matter. But if it's 11 to 1 in your favor, whatever side you're on, that's looking pretty good for the next go around because, you know, I mean, all juries are different. You're going to get a totally different group of people, but at the very least, it's kind of indicating that most people were on your side for this one. Maybe somebody didn't quite get there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Spencer did say they are prepared to retry the case. And certainly if I was Judge Ferguson or his attorneys, an 11 to 1. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I'd be looking to make a deal at that point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. I also wanted to highlight the fact that Ferguson gave an interview to Inside Edition, and I want to read to you one of the things he said. He said, I wasn't angry at her. I loved her. We were just bickering like Lucy and Desi. I did not murder her. It has been a while since I've watched any episode of I Love Lucy. I don't seem to remember Desi Arnaz pulling guns on Lucy in those episodes.

[Anya Cain]

No. That's pretty dark. That's a pretty dark approximation of beloved sitcom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So that. That didn't. Yeah. He's an interesting man, this judge.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Also, he says he wasn't angry at her. But weren't they fighting that day?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They were fighting. They had a fight in a restaurant. At one point during the fight, he raised his hand to her and he made his hand into the shape of a gun, like extending a finger at her. And then later on when they were at home, she said something like, why don't you point a real gun at me? At which point he pulled out the real gun and shot her. By his account, he thought she said something like. I believe he thought she said something like, wayne should put the gun down. Or something. And he had a gun in his ankle holster. So he thought, well, I'm just gonna do what she says to make peace and pull out the gun to set it down. But somehow, despite his experience with guns, he accidentally fired it. By his account, I don't believe that. I think that's what one juror did.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Or sometimes you have jurors who just have a problem with casting judgment on other people. Like, it's too much for them. You know, they lack that backbone, and they just kind of want something to go away. They don't want to. They don't want to live with it. You know, and I understand that some people just have those personalities, but, you know, or maybe they felt they didn't prove it. Who knows? You don't. You don't know until that juror comes forward and says, here's what my reasoning was. You know, it reminded me of a I Love Lucy episode, and I just totally sympathized with. I mean, also the fact he's doing, like, a media tour right now is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, okay, well, at least inside editions.

[Anya Cain]

I. I don't know. I thought it was a pretty obvious case. I would think that maybe this would be a case where, if I were on the defense side, I'd probably want to plead it out if I could. Who knows if that's even on the table? It may not be. It's not always on the table. Sometimes the prosecution just wants to go to trial. But if some kind of deal were worked out that could possibly, you know, make it. Sure. Like, maybe. Maybe you don't necessarily die in prison or, you know, you have the possibility of getting out. Although he's so old that obviously, this man, you know, I. I don't know. Like, he's. To me, the fact that he's not. Like, the fact he's like, oh, I wasn't angry at her, and all this stuff, it's like, okay, but, like, you. You were fighting. That was all sort of documented. Like, it sort of seems like rewriting history now. It doesn't seem super honest. Like, I think something where he said, like, we were fighting, I didn't intend to kill her. I was just super drunk. I could buy that more than whatever the spin is now. And also, how does that make any sense? Like, oh, she's so freaked out by the gul. The gun holster. So let me put the gun in my hand so I can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, also, by all accounts, he was in a state of intoxication at the time. And so my understanding is that people when they are intoxicated, don't always think as clearly as one would hope.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's certain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've never been intoxicated, so I wouldn't know.

[Anya Cain]

I certainly have. And I would say, also I would, I think any responsible gun owner would probably tell you that guns and alcohol really don't mix. And that's just probably not a great idea to be getting slammed and doing anything with your gun because, you know, that's not, that's not responsible. Also, responsible gun owners will tell you you don't point anything at anybody in terms of guns, you know, unless you're prepared to possibly kill somebody. So, and if you don't want to, don't point it at them. So it's, it's definitely, you know, it's sad for this woman. I'm sure it's, you know, been very difficult for this family because not only is she dead, but also now their father is facing this situation. So it's, it's obviously tragic. Let's talk about one of our favorite people who also happens to do one of our favorite podcasts. Obviously, I'm talking about Jason Blair and his show, the Silver Linings Handbook.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You probably recognize Jason's name because we've been on his show and he's been on ours to talk about true crime, ethics and the media. He's always got thoughtful insights to share, plus he's got all kinds of ideas on how to make true crime a more respectful and compassionate space.

[Anya Cain]

The Silver Linings Handbook is a weekly podcast that's totally interview centric, so you get to hear Jason's in depth conversations with all kinds of inspiring people. You'll hear discussions about well being, mental health, the law and the criminal justice system, true crime, religion and marginalized communities, and just about everything in between. For all you true crime fans, he's had on the hosts of the Prosecutors, the Consult and yours truly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jason is a wonderful person with a seemingly endless well of compassion and empathy for others that serves him quite well as an interviewer. We were really gripped by his recent conversations with the daughter of a murdered police detective, the sister of a missing native woman in Montana, and Gabby Petito's father. These were all humanistic and in depth talks that got to the heart of of topics like grief, advocacy and abuse.

[Anya Cain]

We've always enjoyed our conversations with Jason on the Silver Linings Handbook and behind the scenes, getting to listen to his show is a bit like dropping by for one of those talks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook Wherever.

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

I have, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you know about them, if anything?

[Anya Cain]

Very little. I really know very little about them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So hyperbaric chambers are basically a chamber you would go into and breathe pure oxygen. Because of the nature of oxygen, these chambers are highly flammable and also supposedly bringing in the pure oxygen is. It is suggested to people that it has huge medicinal benefits and maybe it can benefit people in some ways, but it doesn't seem to benefit them in all the many ways that the owners of hyperbaric chambers would try to make people believe it does.

[Anya Cain]

So they're like overselling the benefits potentially here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. The person in this case was being treated for sleep apnea and ADHD in a hyperbaric chamber.

[Anya Cain]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as we talk about it, we'll see this. They refer to someone else being treated for erectile dysfunction in a hyperbaric chamber. FDA has not approved hyperbaric chambers for those sorts of things. Which means that there's really no convincing scientific evidence to back it up.

[Anya Cain]

Right. Okay. So it's. It's. Maybe it's fringe in terms of some of these applications and some of the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Applications maybe not totally fringe in all areas.

[Anya Cain]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Certainly in Some of the applications. And so this is the story of a five year old boy named Thomas Cooper. He was, as we indicated, he was receiving treatment for ADHD and sleep apnea. 5 years old, lived in Royal Oak, Michigan.

[Anya Cain]

Oh man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He went to a center in Troy, Michigan. And while he was being treated, a fire started in the chamber and the chamber exploded and the boy was dead.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that's awful. God, a five year old.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A five year old.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, that's horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, what he was being treated for, there's really no convincing evidence that this would have helped. So in this case, three people have been charged with second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. That is the owner of the facility, Tamla Peterson, the safety manager at the facility, Jeffrey Mosteller, and the primary management assistant, Gary Margan. The person operating the chamber was charged with involuntary manslaughter and falsifying medical records. So it's a tragic story. They were trying to make money as a business and they did not really put a high priority on safety. And they were basically to quote the Attorney General of Michigan, Dana Nessel, she said that the center used the machines, quote on children's bodies over and over again to provide unaccredited and debunked so called treatments. Chiefly because it brought cash into the door.

[Anya Cain]

Oh wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That'S very upsetting.

[Anya Cain]

Well, can I just say something weird? Yeah. I'm gonna say this, you know, this is not a defense of them at all. It's just more of a kind of an interesting historical fact that this brought to my mind. So I'm gonna say it because I guess that's what I do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what you do.

[Anya Cain]

That's what I do. And this is something I was, when I was. And also shout out to my dad because this is his sort of where he works and I think he'd be interested in this and I know he listens so. Hi dad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hello sir.

[Anya Cain]

This is a situation where in, in. So I'm thinking kind of primarily, I think the 20s and the 30s, there were, there were situations where the anesthesia they would use in hospitals at that time, specifically I think cyclopropane was a big problem. And maybe, maybe ethylene, I wanna say they were very flammable and you would actually have explosions where people would die, patients would die, you know, and so it's, I mean obviously nowadays anesthesia is a lot safer. Now the thing is in anesthesia we can all see the, you know, the kind of necessary and practical application for that in order to have a surgery if it's, you know, most surgeries, it's, it's far better and, you know, gonna have a better outcome and you're gonna be able to do stuff if the patient is under anesthesia, under general anesthesia, and essentially knocked out. But when it comes to this, if there's no real, you know, if the, if the practical effects and the kind of, you know, if it's dubious at best and it's not really documented, then obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they weren't following safety procedures, well, that's too.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, if you're kind of like, I like if you're gonna do some woo woo stuff, some, you know, kind of whatever, like, we don't really know if this works, okay. I don't think that's good. And you know, maybe it could be harmful in a different way. I think that, you know, maybe you're not getting a more effective treatment, you know, but if you're gonna do all that stuff, ensure that no one dies, right? I mean, ensure that it's a fully safe environment where, you know, little kids aren't gonna be in danger. I think that's fair. So the question is. So these, these people are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

These people are charged with murder, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, Three of them are, and the fourth is involuntary manslaughter.

[Anya Cain]

It feels like Michigan does this a lot with charging people with murder. Like there's a couple of these cases that you have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've had them before.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Do you think that's good or do you think that's overcharging people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a good question. I think at this point I'd really like to see more evidence in this case. I'm curious what you would think. I'm going to tell you a little bit of the additional evidence in this case to get kind of your reaction to it, because I just told you was the bare bones. A detective who worked the case, Danielle Trigger. Danielle Trigger.

[Anya Cain]

What a name.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Detective Trigger. It sounds like from an action movie.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it does.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She gave some testimony where she disclosed some information. She indicated the police had found some electronic messages on some devices that were owned by Tamela Peterson, who was the CEO of this company. In one of these exchanges, the CEO sent photos of the burning corpse of the boy and wrote something. I will quote. She wrote quote something to the effect of if my leg was on fire, I would at least try to hit it and put it out. He just laid there and did nothing. End quote. What? That's a really bizarre victim blaming. What?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, that's really distasteful. I'M trying not to let, like, my distaste of that necessarily affect my view on, like, how the law should be applied, but yikes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's really why in other text messages, I kind of alluded to this a little bit before. Peterson was responding to a question about whether or not she used these hyperbaric chambers to treat erectile dysfunctions. She responded, quote, whatever gets bodies in those chambers. Lol. So this is not a person who really seems to have a lot of scientific rigor, doesn't really necessarily believe in these treatments. She's just doing whatever she can to get people to pay for them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I will say, though, like, does that even matter in this case? If you were just like, this is the greatest thing. This will save your life, and you still had a crappy facility where someone died and burned all the, then I would still say, like, that's not good either. It's just bad for a different kind of reason.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Yeah. It has no real legal relevance, I guess, but it goes to show something about the nature of the people involved in this.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Trigger also testified that the staff did not follow proper safety protocols. There's things like grounding straps, which usually are worn around the wrists, which would help get rid of static electricity, which sometimes causes a fire. Those were not used. At one point in the past, someone who worked there to run these hyperbaric chambers said that the safety practices were so poor, she didn't feel comfortable running them. And that woman was fired.

[Anya Cain]

That's concerning.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also, because it's highly flammable, you're not supposed to use any clothing inside the chamber unless it's made of 100% cotton. And there's no indication that any effort was made to ensure that this boy's clothes were 100% cotton. It's just upsetting that it wouldn't have taken much to save the life of this boy. Either. Don't sell the quack medicine treatment, or if you do make an effort to make sure it's safe, they would also go. These machines had some sort of counter which would indicate how many times they had been used. And they would regularly go into that and roll the numbers back like it's a car you're selling.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's really. That's not good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also, the. Ms. Peterson tried to hide video footage of the incident from detectives, so obviously didn't want to cooperate. So, yeah, there's a lot of troubling stuff here. I'm not sure if it qualifies as murder, but if not, it's pretty close in.

[Anya Cain]

In my mind. I don't know that it's murder in my mind. I think you need to prosecute cases like this really severely. I mean, this is like, well, you know, the Triangle shirtwaist fire, factory fire stuff where it's just like, yeah, let's just run a really terrible environment. And then someone inevitably gets hurt. And it's like, oh my gosh, you know, and it's like profit driven because, I mean, that, that's genuinely scary. I don't, I don't like people getting ripped off for possibly scammy stuff. Right. But, you know, if people are gonna do that, then, you know, certainly no one should be ending up dead. And it seems like even in this environment, like there was ways that they could have run this in a way that would have ensured that this child didn't die horribly. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very hard to sympathize in this craze and that, that bizarre attacks. I'm sorry, I can't get that out of my head. What would compel someone to send that, like, oh, I run a terrible facility and a child burned alive inside my facility. And isn't it weird that he didn't like, do anything about it? It's like, what were you doing about it? Like what? Yeah, you know, the problem isn't what he did. It's about what you allowed to happen. Yeah, that's horrible. Well, I, My heart goes out to his family. What a horrible situation. And I'm sure, like, there's a lot of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's especially upsetting because it only took a few seconds to kill this boy.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. What was he supposed to do in a few seconds? I mean, beyond anything else.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, there is a tendency all too often in true crime for people to look at crime victims and say, oh, what they did in the moment when they had a split second to decide, I sitting at home and pondering it, I may have done something different. And so therefore the victims are to blame.

[Anya Cain]

Well, it's not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's nonsense.

[Anya Cain]

It is nonsense. I mean, I think it's an. I mean, to be honest, I think we're all just kind of human at the end of the day. And I think that that instinct comes from an understandable place. The instinct comes from all of us wanting to feel safe. So when you watch something and you're like, I would not have dated that guy, or I would have gotten out there, or I wouldn't have accepted that ride, it's. It's A way to feel safe. It's a way to feel like I am learning from this and I will now not do those things and I'm inputting data so that I will not be murdered. And I think we all have that instinctive feeling. I don't know if there's a way to help that, but I think there's a way we can express ourselves in a way that's not, not victim blaming. And I think we need to just be careful where like we can, we, that impulse can lead to victim blaming and we can kind of cut it off to the point where it's like, okay, you know, just because my lizard brain is taking this in as a kind of a cautionary tale does not mean that's the way I necessarily have to voice it or, or you know, talk about it or, and in this case, I mean, geez, like I, I'm just imagine there's a lot of guilt on the family side. You know, they're trying to help him deal with these conditions. They think this is a good way of doing it and then to have it end so horribly is just honestly horrifying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's move on to the great state of Texas. And this is a story from NBC News. It involves a woman named Brittany Marlo Holberg who has been, she stood convicted of murder for 27 years and she's actually been, was sentenced to death.

[Anya Cain]

Whoa.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the man she killed was Ab Towery, an 80 year old man. Holberg was assassin sex worker. And her client Mr. Towery was found dead, quote, with stab wounds and part of a lamp in his throat, end quote. Holberg claims the whole thing had been in self defense, but obviously the jury didn't buy that. As I indicate she was not only convicted, she was sentenced to death. So why are we talking about someone who was convicted of this awful crime 27 years ago? And the reason why is because her conviction was thrown out recently.

[Anya Cain]

Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So one of the witnesses in the case was a person named Vicki Marie Kirkpatrick and she testified, oh, she said it was for self defense, but actually she told me it was for the money. And this is someone who as it turns out, was a confidential informant who was working for the police. And the fact that she was a confidential informant was not disclosed to the defense. So do you want to discuss what a confidential informant is?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I've never worked in law enforcement, but my understanding is that is basically someone who is providing information to law enforcement and they can, and they can be Paid for that? Yes, there can be some funds given to them for that. So if I'm.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This woman did get. She was a paid informant for them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So if I'm a confidential informant, I might be part of like a serial thieving gang and I might be then going to the police and sort of snitching on people. Is that basically it? And maybe getting some money.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And so obviously it's entirely possible that a person who is a paid confidential informant is telling the absolute truth and their words should be relied upon.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's also possible that a person who has an ongoing business relationship with the police and is getting money might sometimes stretch the truth.

[Anya Cain]

I would also imagine that happens.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so in my mind, it seems rather obvious that the status of a witness as a confidential informant should be disclosed to the defense so they can raise it in front of the jury. And then the jury would be in a position to listen to the cross, evaluate that claim, and come to their own decision about whether or not to find the testimony credible.

[Anya Cain]

I completely agree. That has to be given to the jury, that has to be given to the defense. They have to be able to cross examine the witness with that in mind so that they can get to the truth and, you know, go hard against the witness and possibly get at like, well, are you just saying this because that's what they want you to say? Or, you know, I think that's, that's ridiculous that that was not handed. I have a question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So she's a CI for am. She's. Is she, is she a CI for the same, I guess, agency that's working this case? Or is it just like the fact she was a CIA at all?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe it is the same agency. I'm not 100%.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you know, either way, it raises some, some questions.

[Anya Cain]

Either way, it should have been disclosed for sure because. Yeah, if that's, you know, if there's a business relationship there, that's important.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it goes back to the trial court. I should say that one of the judges on the court of appeals was pretty upset about this writing quote, even had Kirkpatrick been impeached, there's zero chance that a jury would have credited Holberg's laughable claim of self defense or spared her the death penalty for slaughtering a sick old man. End quote.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it sounds like she did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And I understand where he's coming from. It's upsetting that perhaps she was guilty of this crime and because of this error, she's getting another bite of the apple. But I think there's no choice.

[Anya Cain]

I think there's no choice. But this sounds like a guilty person going free, so I hope not going.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Free because there'd probably be a new trial.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, really? Okay. Even though it's so old.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I would imagine so.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, here's my thinking. He's 80 years old and there's a part of a lamp in his neck. I mean, like I'm. How much you need to kill somebody? I guess like that. That seems like overdoing it for an elderly. And then if they're saying he was also ill. Old man. Yeah, I don't know. Seems. Seems like that's interesting way to defend yourself. But I will. But I will. You know, but this is kind of why it's so important for everything to get disclosed and everything to be done properly. You know, her rights were violated here regardless, and there should be a. There should be an accountability here because it. Just because. Just because maybe the indications are she really did it doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want in the system because that's how you start getting. That's. That. That does not lead anywhere good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, it does.

[Anya Cain]

So I think they did the right thing by throwing this back down because I. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's appalling. And why the heck didn't the prosecution team disclose that at the time? That's disturbing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Good question.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Our final case. Sources for this, Fox News and CNN. And this is from Nevada. Anya, earlier we discussed your fondness for the Tennessee Wraith Chasers.

[Anya Cain]

I love them. That show is so fun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have to ask you, have you ever heard of a program called Ghost Adventures?

[Anya Cain]

I haven't. I don't think I have. See, you and I watched a couple of those shows and again, to be very clear, we don't believe in ghosts. But. But I just think those ghost shows are fun and usually they have some wacky take on local history, which is kind of also fun. But that's. I don't. I don't feel like I've seen that one. Or at least not that I remember. Name sounds vaguely familiar.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Name sounds vaguely familiar.

[Anya Cain]

Did we watch it? Because you're the only one I really watch the ghost shows with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have no recollection of it.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. All right. So what happened? Did someone get murdered?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We always try to end these cheat sheets with the lightest case.

[Anya Cain]

Don't give away our schemes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, that's one of our schemes. We don't want to have, like, a really dark case involving something terrible and then say, oh, good night, folks. Ha ha. Do you want to buy a shirt?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's awkward. No one wants this.

[Anya Cain]

So why are you telling them our tricks? Why are you divulging?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a very honest man. I put this whole episode together. So be very honest with my de friends, the listeners. No, this was not a case where someone actually Died and became a ghost.

[Anya Cain]

Good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This was a case involving one of the stars of Ghost Adventures, a man named Aaron Goodwin. He is married to a woman named Victoria Goodwin. And if you look at their social media, at least until recently, it seemed to be a very happy union. Okay, there was one. And here's where I justify the title of the episode, folks. There was one photo, I believe on Instagram that showed the Goodwins and I believe a pet all together on a couch. And Ms. Goodwin captioned it Cuddle Puddles. So.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, okay, okay. So the Cuddle Puddles weren't anything super bad. Just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, so she was arrested recently on charges of soliciting someone to commit murder. And that would be the murder of her husband.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She, according to investigators, willfully, unlawfully and feloniously plotted to commit the murder of her husband. She was communicating with an inmate in Florida. At least at some point she said, oh, I was just buying cell phones. But apparently this was someone she had learned about through some true crime program and started communicating with him.

[Anya Cain]

You're kidding me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No. And she fell in love with him and started dreaming of a future with him. And surprise, surprise, felt her husband would not accept divorce. So she started talking about having her husband killed. She would wonder, quote, am I a bad person because I chose to end his existence, not divorce?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, the answer is yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, you are a bad person.

[Anya Cain]

That's very bad. You are a bad person. Hope that helps.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She now says, no, I didn't want him to be killed. My husband and I are now in a great place. But at that time we were struggling and maybe I had some fantasies.

[Anya Cain]

Ah, I was gonna say the elaborate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Role play situation or daydreams about a situation.

[Anya Cain]

Sometimes I wistfully look out the window and wish for my husband's death. You know, that old excuse.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Geez, you're not talking about you and me. No, I just wanted to make sure.

[Anya Cain]

Double checking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this all came as a shock to the husband who believed their relationship was great.

[Anya Cain]

I feel so bad for him. That's heartbreaking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, apparently when he got the phone call giving him this shocking life changing news, he was on camera for his reality show. And so it might appear in an episode.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, gosh, that's like. I mean, I hope he's okay with that, you know, but like, that's horrible. Just that kind of betrayal. It's. I mean, it's one thing, you know, someone's not into you anymore. It's another thing, somebody literally wants you to die because they're too Lazy or cheap to get a divorce. I mean, geez.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, as Anya mentioned, yes, you are a bad person if you choose to end someone's existence. Yeah, just instead of getting a divorce. That's not a really tough question.

[Anya Cain]

She's. She's a bit of a philosopher. Does that make me bad? Yes. Now, I actually looked this up because this is a thing, and this is absolutely a thing that drives a lot of completely nutty behavior. Just nonsensical foolishness in true crime. And that is. There is a. There is a term for a paraphilia that involves falling in love with inmates, maybe murderers, maybe even serial killers. They'll. They'll do anything. I'm gonna pronounce it wrong, because I, I, I don't know how to read words. So I'm sorry, but it's hybristophilia, where that's, that's like a documented thing where you romanticize criminals. People did this famously with Ted Bundy. People are saying, wow, he's so handsome. I love him. He's gonna be my husband. And it's, it's weird and bad, and I, I think, actually it happens a lot in true crime. You have a lot of people nowadays who Stan. Specific people. And I think nowadays, because it looks so weird to other people, there's a sense that, like, now they dress it up where, like, oh, well, I just think he's innocent. That's the only reason. I think he's really hot. And it's like, yeah, it's. But I think it's still hybristophilia, if I'm saying that right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's odd. And also, it's immoral to plot to kill your husband. Remember that?

[Anya Cain]

You don't have to tell me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just want to make sure you.

[Anya Cain]

Know I was criticizing you about the cane train, but I'm not about to have my reasons. I'm not about to throw you under the cane train.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have my reasons. But. But also to do it in this particular way is especially stupid because I don't think I'm giving away any secrets. Whenever you communicate with an inmate, it is in some way recorded or noted.

[Anya Cain]

I want to know what true crime thing this woman was into, what led her down this path? You know whose podcast did this? We need to find out. I want to know. I'm nosy. Can you imagine I would feel so bad if someone was like, yeah, Anya and Kevin, someone was listening to your podcast, fell in love with a criminal, and then tried to plot to do murder? I'd Be like, well, that sucks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And certainly the host of the podcast would never do that.

[Anya Cain]

No, of course.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So just so you know that, you.

[Anya Cain]

Know, we talked about a lot of husbands plotting against their wives, and I've never been so cagey as you are with me right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you described. Oh, yeah. Looking out the window, fantasizing about killing your husband. Just something about your tone.

[Anya Cain]

I just dreamy look in my eyes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just want to check in.

[Anya Cain]

Thinking about all the insults about cereal that I've had to endure on this program. Flashing before.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what you do in a minute. You check in, you make sure everything is okay.

[Anya Cain]

Solid, babe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right.

[Anya Cain]

It's all fine. Excuse me while I buy a bunch of credits for somebody I want to talk to in jail. I, I, it's, yeah, it, but it's, it's actually just honestly, I'm gonna, I want to do something about at some point. I want to do something. There are so many instances that I see everywhere where I think that certain corners of the true crime sector, or whatever you want to call it, are actually driving people mad. I, I, I, I've seen stuff. I've seen things, and I think it's terrible. I think we should be focusing on trying to educate people, tell stories. I think all that's fine. I don't think true crime is inherently immoral, but I also think that we are going down a dark path. If some random ladies listening to the podcast and then getting so into somebody that she's, you know, thinking about killing her nice ghost hunter husband, like, literally just get a divorce. What's wrong with you? What is wrong with people? Yeah, I'm glad they busted her before she was able to harm him. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, do we know if the, the inmate she was talking to, did he, like, snitch her out or did he, like, again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And all these communications are monitored. We've all followed the Delphi case. Certainly every communication that Richard Allen, every phone call he had with his wife where he repeatedly confessed to the murders, all of those are monitored and recorded. We recently in our reporting on that case, as you may or may not know, we emailed Kagan Klein and our back and forth with him was recorded by authorities and ended up being included in a court filing. When you're communicating with someone behind bars, there's no expectation of privacy.

[Anya Cain]

No. And, and you would, you would think people would realize that, but people keep on saying wild stuff, but, yeah, gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, so I've covered all the cases it's time for you to bring us home.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, well, we have a book coming out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

August pre order giving your whistle stop speech links in the back of the train.

[Anya Cain]

I can't do it. I can't even. Such a stupid image, you know, Can I just say something? And everyone's gonna be like, oh, gosh, you know what my speech should be, like, modeled off of. Because Kevin and I laugh about this all the time. I don't know why. We just. You know what I'm gonna talk about? You know what I'm gonna talk about? We think about this on a monthly basis for some reason. So before he left Springfield, Illinois, to go to the White House, Abraham Lincoln famously gave a speech before getting on a train and leaving. And it's like the weirdest speech ever. It's basically like, all right, bye, everybody. Like what? Like, he said, like, it was such a morose, weird speech.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said, well, I liked you guys a lot. You know what? I'm going somewhere. I may not come back alive.

[Anya Cain]

No. Didn't he say something? None of you know how I feel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

None of you know how I feel.

[Anya Cain]

Bye. And you just imagine everyone standing there afterwards being like, what was that? It was not like a triumphant, all right, we're gonna do great things, America. It was like, none of you know how I feel. Goodbye. And I think I should just start ending every episode with that. But anyways, this train thing. This train thing. What are you doing to me? Do I need to make up some ridiculous bit where I saddle that with you and then everyone's talking about you on I can't even see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've tried and you failed. No, because they don't sound realistic. No, it's because everybody can imagine you with your little engineer's outfit blowing your little train whistle.

[Anya Cain]

What the hell?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That feels like you.

[Anya Cain]

That doesn't feel like me. What does that mean? You're so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I.

[Anya Cain]

It's because I respect my husband and speak to him respectfully on our program that we share. And you're over there having weird fantasies about me being a train conductor slash engineer slash serial heister.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

It's just wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All of it seems realistic to our audience.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But do your whistle stop speech bring us home.

[Anya Cain]

Well, we have shirts also, if you want to buy some. Can buy them. And they're in the show. Note the links in the show notes. And they're nice shirts. And, you know, we're. We're just. We're just living life. Just live living life. And the book's going to Come out in August. I think I said that already. But it's going to be about Delphi and it's, it's, you know, just finishing up right now. And finishing it up along with my last bit of sanity.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Our Patreons are going to get this episode immediately. But if you are listening to this as part of our podcast feed, I think by the time you hear this, the book will be done and have been the final draft submitted to our publisher.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but no pressure, right? Yeah. It better be. That's all I'll say. It better be. That's all I'm gonna say. Slamming down my pen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Anya certainly fills me with confidence.

[Anya Cain]

You know what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've trusted you to take me on a safe journey on this train.

[Anya Cain]

What are you talking about? Why is everything a train? When's the last time you've even been on a train?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I've been on trains.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Last time we went on a train and we really showed. We're tiring the patience of everybody.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The last time we were on a train is when we went on an ill conceived murder mystery train ride together.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, that was ridiculous. But we were, I guess we were on the metro in D.C. oh, that's not a train. Okay. But I will say this. I always, I always have dreamed of like going on one of those fancy old timey trains, like, you know, murder on the Orient Express, like that kind of stuff. That's one of my dreams.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't see people and people can tell that. Which makes them accept my rendition.

[Anya Cain]

People can tell that. How can anyone tell that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're always talking about trains. I'm not talking about the button. You know what?

[Anya Cain]

Hit the button. Geez, Louise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group On Facebook, we mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically. Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, like, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15 off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's v I I a hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints? A great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quint's products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian Leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you. But I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to Quince com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince com msheet. That's Q U I N C E com M S H E E T.