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- [00:00]
A
Anya. I'm Anya. And today we're going to talk about a case in Indiana, as well as almost all of Indiana's neighbors. And then we're going to go to the United Kingdom for another topic in crime. Content Warning. This episode contains discussion of violence, murder and rape, including the murder of a pregnant woman, as well as animal abuse.
- [00:22]
B
I want to start out by giving you some well deserved kudos.
- [00:26]
A
Okay.
- [00:27]
B
There have been many, many times on this program where as conductor of the cane, tr. You have organized the travel so poorly. It's like we're powering the engine, the mighty engine, with just dollar bills that we're just throwing onto it. But this time you've arranged it so we're just traveling around Indiana, and then at the last minute, with all the money we're saved, we're in a very brief jaunt to England. So thank you.
- [00:53]
A
You're welcome. Yeah, we can't take a train to England, but I guess we're.
- [00:57]
B
Once we're in England, if we want to, like, take a train between, like, London and Paris. I wonder if there's a way to do that.
- [01:05]
A
Maybe a dirigible. I can't say the word.
- [01:08]
B
I don't know how to say it. Like a Chunnel.
- [01:11]
A
Chunnel.
- [01:12]
B
Yeah.
- [01:13]
A
Well, you think you've manipulated this. I will say you're the one who brought in the United Kingdom. I don't know if we're. Are we going to England specifically? Are we going to the whole United Kingdom? I don't know.
- [01:23]
B
Well, what I saw, you know, spoiler alert. England and Wales.
- [01:27]
A
Okay. England and Wales. There you go. Spoiler. Okay, no spoilers. Well, can't take the Chunnel there, but once we get there, the channel is available to us. And that's.
- [01:36]
B
I mean, as long as we're going over there, let's go to the channel.
- [01:38]
A
Yeah. Trying to plan this out. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [01:45]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [01:48]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [01:50]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the Cheat sheet.
- [01:59]
A
Conspiracies and Curtilages.
- [02:46]
B
So I believe we're going to start out with our neighbor to the west, the land of Lincoln, the great state of Illinois.
- [02:54]
A
That's right.
- [02:55]
B
Yes. And my source for this is nbcchicago.com and this is a really terrible, terrible story involving the murder of a woman named Eliza Morales. And what occurred was that her husband put up a 1994 pickup truck for sale on Facebook Marketplace. 19 year old guy, Natus Revakas. I apologize if I pronounce that wrong, which I almost certainly am. He comes by, he picks up the car, he buys the truck, and then a few days later he makes arrangements to go and get the license plate and the bill of sale and some of that other paperwork you need when you're purchasing a vehicle. And what he apparently didn't share with Mr. Morales was that he felt he got a bad deal with the truck. So when he shows up at the building where the Morales live, Mr. Morales isn't there. It's just Eliza Morales and her dog, who is described as an elderly pit bull mix named Zul. So when he arrives, Mrs. Morales gives him a screwdriver, presumably to exchange license plates. A few minutes later he goes into the building with the screwdriver in his hand. There is video footage of some of this showing the door to the apartment unit opening and closing. About 15, 16 minutes later, there appear to be sign of signs of a struggle with Revacus. At another point, the door handle is seen turning and moving from the inside and appears as if someone is trying and failing to get out of the apartment unit. And then about 10 minutes later, smoke is seen coming out of the unit. So what would happen is he was upset, he goes in to confront her, he ends up stabbing her repeatedly. And he stabs her even after she informs him that she is pregnant. The dog I mentioned, the elderly pit bull, Zula, he also stabbed the dog, stabbing it between the eyes. The dog lived and is currently in a hospital receiving care. After, after the apartment unit is seen, you know, with smoke indicating a fire, this suspect is caught pretty quickly and he makes a confession. He indicates that he stabbed her 10 times. Actually, an autopsy found that he stabbed her closer to 70 times.
- [06:24]
A
Oh my God.
- [06:24]
B
And a majority of those wounds were on her head and neck, so obviously more of an attempt to kill her. And he acknowledged that she mentioned to him that she was pregnant again. So he is now facing a variety of charges for this. First degree murder, intentional homicide of an unborn child, armed robbery, aggravated arson and animal cruelty. And one reason I wanted to highlight this awful, awful case, just thinking of that poor woman pregnant with a child and having this happen to her just horrifies me is we often hear of instances where there's situations on Facebook marketplace where you make a deal with someone you may not know and you go to some location and you're exchanging money for a good or service and it may or may not be what you expected it to be. There may be anger between the parties. Maybe you're the person selling something and someone's upset with you, maybe you're buying something and you're upset with the seller. And I just wanted to mention, a lot of people don't realize this. I didn't realize this until I started hanging out more at police stations. But a lot of police stations, a lot of sheriff's department will actually have space designated at the station, either inside the station or in the parking lot just outside the station. Where the whole point of that area is if you're doing an online purchase with someone, an online transaction, you can go there and you can do that transaction in a completely safe place. And I would encourage people to consider doing that sort of thing. If you are having a money transaction with someone you've never met.
- [08:33]
A
That'S good advice. And some people may not be aware of that, but hopefully raising awareness can help. Although this just makes me so sick. This guy, this is why, you know he's 19, right?
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B
Yeah.
- [08:52]
A
This is a situation where when people say, I can't believe this teenager did. Some teenagers are the people who do stuff like this. You know, lack of impulse control, whatever, whatever else doesn't excuse it. But you know, young males are the people who are doing most of the violence in our society. Especially most of this kind of random, impulsive, out of nowhere violence. People like him should be under the jail doing this to a pregnant woman over a frickin pickup truck. Totally, totally. Add this person just. Yeah, yeah, under the jail I have absolutely, just this like wanton violence over nothing because you didn't get your way. So what, you're gonna have a hissy fit over it where you kill two people, A unborn baby and a mother? Like, I just. People like this aren't human to me who do this. You know, like there's just stuff that almost just separates you so much from the rest of humanity that you know, and I know people will say, oh no, it is human, it's all too human. And I see that, but at the same time it's just, just soulless monster to do something like this.
- [10:07]
B
And he acknowledges, as I mentioned a couple of times, that this woman mentioned to him that she was pregnant.
- [10:14]
A
Yeah.
- [10:14]
B
And that, that didn't stop him.
- [10:16]
A
Like how do you. I just want to. I mean, what I get curious about in situations like this is like, did his family know he was a monster? Did they unleash this on society? Or is this somebody who was Able to kind of go through life seeming relatively normal until he was in a situation where this young woman is encountering him and she's alone with him, and he just unleashed whatever it was he was hiding for all those years. You know, is a monster like this the fault of the family that raised him? Did they do something that prompted him to be like this, or is this somebody where they did everything right and he just turned out this way and there was nothing they could do? Because I like to have those conversations. And I'm not blaming families. I. I've encountered stories where you're like, wow, this guy's family really messed him up. And then I've encountered stories where it's like, no, the parents seem to try to do everything right, and this still happened. So it just kind of leads to some questions for me about, like, how do you prevent young men from going down this violent and insane path? I don't know. But, you know, I think we have to talk about it. I think we have to talk about the violence done by men toward women in general. Women they know and then strangers in a situation where it's like, maybe someone's frustrated and then that suddenly becomes a life ending thing for this woman and her unborn child. And her unborn child makes me so sick. And I just. My heart goes out to her and her family. Just absolutely, absolutely, totally.
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B
Also stabbing this elderly dog between the eyes. All you can think of is the dog was probably doing what the dog is supposed to do and trying to protect her.
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A
Yeah, it's. It's so sick. And I just, again, I just. I get so disgusted and jaded about stuff like this. You know, no one ever should be murdered. Murder's never the answer. But a pregnant woman dying for this, some stupid pickup transaction is just like, I don't know. People like this, I don't think, deserve to breathe the same air as everyone else. I'm just gonna say that I don't even really consider myself pro death penalty, by the way. Like, it's just when I see stuff like this, like, I just have that flare of rage of like, her family should be allowed to take him out behind the woodshed. And I don't even believe that. I don't think that's politically viable, and I don't think that's how our nation should work. But, like, my emotional side, my gut reaction is, yeah, I'm sure, give them some baseball bats and have them go to town.
- [12:45]
B
I'm certainly not a death penalty guy.
- [12:47]
A
I'm. I don't I don't really think I'm a death penalty gal, but. Cause again like, there's a difference for me between like the rational side of like, okay, let's deal with this in the best way for all of society. And then there's the kind of emotional side of like, I see this and I want to kill somebody. Like that. And that's the kind of discrepancy. And I usually try to vote with or vote, not vote, but like I usually try to make political decisions and, and sort of have, you know, opinions form based on what I think is the more logical, rational side. And like what, you know, how does this work? But I will, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say that this doesn't make me feel a certain type of way, you know, if I'm being completely honest. So. Yeah.
- [13:33]
B
Are we now heading over to the Buckeye State, our neighbor to the east, the great state of Ohio?
- [13:40]
A
Yes, we're going to the Buckeye State. And my source for this was primarily through court documents. And there's also a organization called SAFE and that is Stop Abuse for Everyone. And an article from that is something I'm going to share as a resource here. So we're going back to the murders of the Tepes and this was a case we covered previously. And I wanted to provide an update today because there's been more information that's been.
- [14:12]
B
This was the dentist and his wife who were murdered.
- [14:14]
A
Yes, this was 37 year old Spencer Tepe, a dentist, and his wife monique, who was 39. She was a stay at home mom. They had two young children and were living in Columbus, Ohio. They'd been married since 2021. Both went to Ohio State University and had a golden doodle named Larry. And their kids were 1 years old and 4 years old. And they by all accounts were a very happy, loving, beautiful relationship between them. Very happy couple, each other's love of their lives. Kind of everything you'd want in a love story. And that love story unfortunately came to extremely violent and tragic end on Tuesday, December 30, 2025. If you're like me, you're so into true crime that you kind of get extra careful about stuff, making sure you're not followed. For instance, staying situationally aware and of course, checking the locks on your doors and windows before bed. Better safe than sorry, right? Because we all know bad stuff can and unfortunately does happen.
- [15:12]
B
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- [15:29]
A
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- [15:46]
B
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- [16:05]
A
So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system for a limited time. Just go to simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like simplisafe. They were murdered between. They were murdered in their home rather on in the second floor. Discovered near. In their bedroom seemingly, or, you know, at least Spencer certainly was. Spencer was shot multiple times and found lying near the bed. Monique is said to have suffered at least one gunshot wound to the chest. And there's no firearm discovered at the scene. And police, you know, Columbus police were immediately on this and searching for who did this heinous act. You know, the two children were found in the home unharmed, but certainly, you know, orphaned. And their lives are changed forever by the murder of their parents. And video camera footage was released to the public of a man walking in a snowy alleyway right near the house. And you could kind of see it appears to be a man, dark shoes, lighter pants, dark hoodie, seemingly kind of keeping his head down to avoid being seen. So. The person charged in this case now is Michael David McKee. He is a vascular surgeon who also attended Ohio State University and was previously briefly married to Monique. They were divorced a couple of years ago. And in terms of the legal records I've seen, there's no real warning signs about this in terms of like, you know, legal trouble between them or kind of indications of that. But what, what's come out since has indicated that those signs may have actually been there. So. So what's happened? I'll kind of get into the new documents that I've seen, but McKee was indicted on four counts of aggravated murder and a single count of aggravated robbery on January 16. He has reportedly, according to media outlets, invoked his Fifth Amendment right with police. He's not talking and he's hired the attorney, Diane Menashi. Sorry if I'm saying her name wrong, but she is a experienced attorney in Ohio. One of her notable cases in the past was representing Dr. William Huzel, who was a Ohio physician who was acquitted of 14 counts of murder. He was accused of working through the Mount Carmel Health System in Columbus to prescribe excessive pain medication, thus leading to multiple deaths. So she was able to get him acquitted, and now she's working for McKee. And one thing that's come out is that, you know, when you look at the, the McKee, McKee's divorce with Monique, again, as I mentioned, it's pretty par for the course for the most part. But that doesn't mean. Just because a divorce doesn't appear dramatic in court filings does not mean that that is the case. Is that fair to say?
- [19:10]
B
That is fair to say. There's the old cliche that the only people who understand a marriage are the two people in it. And that certainly applies to divorces as well.
- [19:19]
A
Yes. And so what people are telling media sources, this has been widely reported already, that McKee was actively obsessed with Monique and that she moved on from that relationship, and he did not. What we heard was what, what was being said is that, you know, he made her feel isolated in the marriage and it was a bad situation and she got out of it pretty quickly, moved on with her life, and he just did not. And so that's kind of. And unfortunately, what we're going to learn is that it goes even further than that. So terms of the investigation, in a state, in public statements, Columbus Police chief, Police Chief Elaine Bryant has made a statement saying that weapons were seized from McKee's property, and there's been a preliminary link between one of the firearms and the murder weapon. So that's pretty important evidence, obviously. Now, what I've seen recently was an affidavit in support of probable cause that has sort of been more unsealed. And this is what it had to say about the situation as far as investigators were concerned. Quote, early on in the investigation, detectives were advised by identifiable friends and family of Monique Tepe that Monique had told them her ex husband, Dr. Michael D. McKee, had been abusive and had made numerous threats on her life during and after their marriage. End quote. Okay. So obviously that's pretty significant. And obviously these identifiable witnesses were coming forward to police pretty early on saying, hey, you're going to want to look at this Guy, which is understandable. Anytime you have a situation where someone is in a relationship, it ends. And then they're continuing to be threatening and harassing, that's going to be probably suspect number one. Rightly so.
- [21:13]
B
Rightly so.
- [21:14]
A
Because most people who kill each other know each other. We have this myth that we're fed by true crime podcasts that the stranger is who you should be scared of. That's not true. You should be scared of the unstable person in your life or the angry person in your life or the person who is just vicious and awful in your life because they're going to be the one to do it if anyone is. Quote. So back to the affidavit. Quote, an identifiable witness told detectives that Monique Tepe had shared an allegation against Michael McKee of forced unwanted sex and of strangulation. End quote. So this is incredibly disturbing. I mean, I don't know why they wrote it this way, but forced, unwanted sex is rape. So this is a man who Monique Tepe was telling people that he raped her and that he was a sexual abuser, a rapist. And the thing about strangulation really stuck out to me as well. Do you know why, Kevin?
- [22:22]
B
Why?
- [22:23]
A
The reason is because. And people may not, people may not realize this, but strangulation is extremely serious. That sounds obvious. If you've never, if you've never been in an abusive relationship, if you've never had any experience with someone you knew who had an abusive relationship, you may not. It may just sound kind of obvious, of like, of course it's serious to strangle someone. But it's, it goes further than that. I'm going to read a piece of, part of an article from the Stop Abuse for Everyone organization about strangulation. When we think about intimate partner violence, IPV and sexual assault, strangulation is often overlooked, even though it is one of the strongest predictors of homicide in abusive relationships. Victims who experience non fatal strangulation by an intimate partner are 750% more likely to be murdered by that partner in the future. End quote. Think about that number. 750% more likely to be murdered. Once strangulation occurs in a relationship, what. What that should be looked at by the victim and by everyone else is that they're very, very possibly going to be murdered by that person. Once you strangle someone, once someone is willing to use that level of violence, that level of, you know, dangerous violence against you, you should look at that person as a, you know, a possible future murderer. And that's it. Because the Numbers don't lie. Okay? Like that. If someone's willing to do that, they're. They're also willing to kill in many. In many cases. And it should be treated with utmost seriousness in terms of how. How strangulation cases are prosecuted. And legislation around this should be passed to kind of showcase, because we know that this is true. And the fact that she accused him of strangling her in the past, I think, says a lot. And it kind of says a lot about what his psyche may have been around this. And what happened. Ultimately, we actually had on Megan from Silver Linings of Hope. Megan's mother was murdered. Leslie Hope Houston was murdered by her husband. And strangulation had occurred in that relationship as well. So she tries to raise awareness about. Strangulation is something that you need to take extremely seriously. And unfortunately, you know, it kind of just bears out again and again. So that. That was really alarming to read about. And my heart breaks for Monique Tepe because it's like she got away from this terrible relationship and seemingly gotten into a great one with a great man and. And creating that distance. Creating distance over the course of years and getting away from this guy, he still followed her. And that's so horrifying. And so, quote, another identifiable witness told detectives that Michael D. McKee had told Monique that he could kill her at any time and would find her and buy the house right next to her, that she would always be his wife, end quote. Kevin, we've done some cases where there's been, like, a possessive partner or former partner who's continued to do things, and then it leads to a murder. What are your thoughts on these allegations about McKee's statements about following her down and she'll always be his wife and he's gonna buy the house next to her.
- [26:02]
B
It's. It's very upsetting and very concerning. It's. It's terrible that she had to live with this sort of threat. There are certain types of men that we've encountered who are unwilling to move on and who look at the women they've been in a relationship with, not as a human being with their own rights to live and enjoy life, but is a piece of property and are greatly offended when they. This piece of property wants to be independent and live without them. They take it as an insult, and they just get anger. They just get furious, and they. They nurse that grudge. And it ultimately often leads in violence.
- [26:51]
A
It often does, because it's. It's a situation where that abuser, if. If somebody is defying Them, you know, it's not like they're looking at. I mean, everyone gets frustrated, perhaps with other people, but if you see other people as human beings in their own right who have rights and deserve to make their own choices, it's gonna. It's gonna hit a lot different than if you see somebody is basically your property, who you have a right to, and. And they don't have any rights. There's a kind of concept within. And I'm not diagnosing anybody here, obviously, but I'm also not capable of diagnosing anyone at all because I'm not a mental health professional. But when we're dealing with things like narcissistic personality disorder, there's a concept of, you know, people. I like, people in your life are extensions of yourself rather than their own human beings, you know, with their own.
- [27:41]
B
Rights to live and enjoy life.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah. And so there can be, you know, there can be issues around things like that and just, you know, kind of a classic abuser belief and tactic. But we also got some more information, so we got information on that relationship about the abuse Monique suffered and, you know, the horror she went through with this person. And we also got more details on the surveillance that police were able to do to link the vehicle in question. So there was a vehicle that came up on surveillance footage that police were able to kind of figure out. It arrived before the murders and left shortly after the murders into this area where the Tepes were living in Columbus. And this is what they said about that. Quote, video of this vehicle and very distinct features allowed detectives to identify both a stolen Ohio license as well as an Arizona license being displayed on it at different times. Further searches showed this vehicle to be associated with the past address of Michael McKee as well as his current work address in Rockford, Illinois. Additional video was obtained and showed McKee in possession of the vehicle prior to and after the homicide. End quote. That's obviously pretty devastating evidence. But beyond that, again, switching around license plates. Interesting. It all sounds a little bit familiar to me.
- [29:08]
B
Yeah, I see what you're suggesting. There certainly seem to be some parallels here to another case we've covered on the program, namely the case of the man who now calls himself Temujin Kinzu. In that case, he saw the woman he believed he had a relationship with, who was also actually his victim. He saw her as his property. That was Crystal.
- [29:35]
A
And he raped her and also physically abused her.
- [29:38]
B
And he was also involved in switching license plates on vehicles in order to help get away with his crimes.
- [29:44]
A
He ultimately stalked her when she was in a happy relationship with a man named Scott Macklem, he stalked him and murdered him. Yes, he's often talked about as if he's a wrongfully convicted man, but I don't believe that's true. And I think when we talk about this is the kind of abuser, this is the kind of murderer, we talk about things like that. This is the kind of grievance collector who can't just move on with their own lives and has to go stalk somebody and kill them and their husband. In Ken Zoo's case, he only killed the. The new male partner, Scott Macklemore. But I. I see these as similar crimes because they involve stalking, they involve past relationships that are over. I mean, and there's some key differences. There was less time elapsed in the Kenzo case, and there was a lot of other crazy stuff happening with that one. But just in ter, like, there were just certain things that kind of struck me as somewhat similar, you know, and again, like, he hasn't been convicted yet, but, I mean, some of this evidence is pretty, pretty bad for him, pretty overwhelming. So I'm open to. In a case like this, I don't like, we don't need to be. We don't need to be stupid. We don't need to be harping on, you know, everyone knows innocent until proven guilty, and that's something for the jury to certainly hold the state accountable to proving all of this. So that's kind of what that is for. But at the same time, it would really take a lot of explanation, if the state is correct about any of this, to really explain away why. Why your vehicle's in the area and why you have a firearm that, you know, I don't know, that seems pretty damning. So this is where it gets especially upsetting. Quote, detectives also rec covered video of the same suspect entering the curtilage of the house on 4 N. 4th St. On Dec. 6, 2025, and exiting a few hours later when the tepes were away. End quote. If you're like me, I didn't really know what curtilage meant, so. Oops. So what that is is the land immediately surrounding a house. So that could mean like your garden or your yard or your driveway or, like, you know, things like that. Right. So it's essentially usually used in the sense where our Fourth Amendment rights prevent unreasonable government searches and seizures of our property. And so your curtilage, it's not your house, but it also, you still have somewhat of an expectation of privacy there. So that's different from like just kind of a vacant lot near your house where there is no real protection. Does that make sense?
- [32:30]
B
That makes sense.
- [32:33]
A
So he's in their curtilage. Now, what I found interesting about this is they don't say he goes into their property. So I'm curious. Did he. Is it possible he was in the house prior to the murders on December 6th, they're murdered a couple weeks later. Did he do something? Did he, like, leave a window open? Like. Like there's things that perhaps would then explain the lack of forced entry when it came time to. For the murder. What do you think about that?
- [33:03]
B
That's interesting to speculate about.
- [33:05]
A
It's a speculation. I mean, I. I have no evidence. I mean, nothing. But it's just more of like it. It. They don't see he goes into the house, though. The, the language. And someone pointed this out to me, we were talking about it. Someone, one of our listeners was pointing out that's very specific language. And it makes me wonder, did they just not have the angle of him going into the house, or is it possible he didn't go into the house? It seems, it seems interesting that they're saying he was there for hours. It seems like it would be odd for you to be just in the curtilage for hours, but I guess anything's possible. But it makes me think that they, they don't want to overstate anything with this, and they don't want to say he's in the house, but it leaves the implication that he could have been to me.
- [33:50]
B
I agree.
- [33:51]
A
Okay, so. And then I'll. I'll go to the last part of this. So, quote, these dates are consistent with video recovered of the silver SUV and are consistent with dates when Michael D. McKee was not on the schedule. At St. Anthony's Hospital on January 9, 2026, detectives seized the silver SUV bearing the Arizona temp tag from the lot at St. Anthony's Hospital in Rockford, Illinois, where Michael D. McKee works. Detectives noticed fresh scrape marks on the window where the sticker which had been on the vehicle prior to the homicides, had been hastily removed. During the time of the homicides, Michael McKee's phone had been left at St. Anthony's Hospital in Rockford, Illinois, and showed now activity for no activity for approximately 17 hours from December 29, 2025, until after 12pm on December 30, 2025. More recently, while Monique and Spencer Tepe were at the Big Ten championship game in Indiana on December 6, 2025, with several other couples. Monique went back to her hotel room early in the second half. When identifiable friends asked Spencer why Monique had left the game, he told her. He. He told that she was. He said she was upset about something involving her ex husband and was going back to the hotel. End quote. So this is the kind of now thing you're seeing. I feel like, I mean, in the case of the four college students murdered in Moscow, Idaho, University of Idaho murders, you had, you know, the phone left out. Right. Like the phone left off and away. So it's. I think people. I mean, I think what criminals need to realize is that, like, even if you're not, like, bringing your phone on the trip, if it's just suspiciously off at the time of the murders, that also looks bad.
- [35:38]
B
And you mentioned earlier, or you led me to mention earlier that there was some resemblance between this case and the Temujin Kenzie case. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't point out another one, which is at the time that Mr. Kenzoo killed Scott Macklem, Mr. Kinzu was living hundreds of miles away, but he was still keeping an eye on Crystal and stalking her where she lived. And in this case, this man was living hundreds of miles away from Columbus, Ohio, but he was obviously still keeping an eye on and stalking his existence.
- [36:13]
A
Yeah. And it's. I said it shut his phone off. It sounds like it is. The phone was on, but with no activity. So he's obviously not using it. So it's. It's. You know, somebody was being too cute by half with this one. I mean, it's like there are some parallels that are.
- [36:27]
B
To the Kinzu case.
- [36:28]
A
It's weird, isn't it?
- [36:30]
B
Yeah.
- [36:30]
A
I mean, I'm sure some people will be mad at us for saying that, but I don't really care. It's. It's. I. I think there's. I think there's some similar personality types going on here and similar kind of, you know, you have these exes that are abusive and then come back even.
- [36:43]
B
Though they live hundreds of miles away.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah. And just have those personalities that, you know, you can't let it go. So I. This made me also really sad because of the stress that Monique and Spencer must have been feeling over this situation on the 6th. It made me sad because, like, this is the first year I think you and I got into college football. Right. And we were really excited about the Indiana Hoosiers beating Ohio State Buckeyes at the Big Ten football championship game. That actually was in Indianapolis. That was in the Lucas Oil Stadium. And it was exciting. And like, while we were having a good time, we didn't go to the game. But while we were having a good time following the game, this couple was trying to enjoy the game with their friends and root for their team, but they're distracted by the fact that this person is continuing to cause problems in Monique's life. And I can't imagine the hell that that creates of. Of being stalked and being aware. I don't know if this is a situation where she was able to see him on the curtilage or if he's sending her messages or things are getting back to her through friends. And it's not clear to me from the language of the document. So any of that is possible, but I just don't know. But either way, this guy is continuing to haunt her and he's continuing to make her feel afraid. And that just breaks my heart because they seem like really good people. And instead of being able to enjoy the game, it's like, I don't know, like there has to. We have to as a society figure out earlier interventions in situations like this where, you know. Cause usually it's like, well, sometimes it feels like, I think to victims of stalking, well, it's like you have to get murdered to get anything done. And I feel like there have to be ways that society can intervene legally and maybe psychologically to kind of like, would it help if like, someone was arrested or jailed or like, how do you. How do you impede the path of a murderous stalker? That. Those are questions that I don't know the answer to. I would be curious what people in law enforcement and people in mental health have to say, you know, are there ways to get through to someone to stop them from doing this? Or are there. Do they just have to be incarcerated?
- [39:08]
B
And we're certainly keep an eye on this case moving forward, certainly. So now let's move on to our neighbor to the north. Great state of Michigan. And apparently there's a lot of X Men fans up in Michigan because my understanding is their nickname is the Wolverine State.
- [39:31]
A
So dad joke to start us off.
- [39:33]
B
Big comic book fans up there in Michigan.
- [39:36]
A
What are you doing?
- [39:40]
B
That's amazing that they love comics so much. They make it their state identity. So God bless them. My sources for this. Click on detroit.com and fox2detroit.com so the murder in this one happened back in October of 2024. A guy named Carlos Hernandez and his buddy Joshua Suazo. I apologize if I mispronounced them. They disguised themselves as Utility workers in order to trick a man named Hussein Murray into letting these people into his home. Mr. Murray owned a jewelry store, so presumably had some money. And once they're in his home, they. One of the first things that they do is his wife is there, too. So they tie her up with duct tape. They take him to a different area. She manages to escape. She calls 91 1. She says, I think my husband may have been kidnapped. But it turns out he was actually murdered, and his body was found in their basement. And Hernandez and Suazo were arrested pretty soon afterwards, and subsequently, both have been sentenced to life. So why am I talking about this now? The reason I'm talking about this now is because Carlos Hernandez's wife, Amanda, is now facing charges. And her charges are basically linked to the fact that she sent a lot of text messages to her husband that seemed to indicate that she was aware of what was being planned and what was happening and that she took an active role in it. And reading these text messages, and we're going to read some of them here in a moment, it strikes me that, first of all, if not for this context of what they're about, they almost sound like messages any wife would send her husband. Is that your take?
- [41:59]
A
They're like the toxic positivity. Like, you got this, babe. I believe in you. But about a murder.
- [42:05]
B
Yeah. So. Yeah.
- [42:08]
A
Well, let's.
- [42:09]
B
Let's.
- [42:09]
A
I'm. I've been reading these as you've been talking, and my jaws hanging open like, I can't even with these people. All right, let's do this.
- [42:18]
B
Let's start with some of these messages. Go ahead.
- [42:22]
A
This is from September 2024.
- [42:24]
B
Yes.
- [42:25]
A
And I'm Amanda. And you're Carlos.
- [42:28]
B
Yes.
- [42:30]
A
Remember what I said? If you have to leave with nothing, that's okay. You're the most important.
- [42:35]
B
I know, baby. I'll text you when we make it up there.
- [42:39]
A
As long as, you know, your life and freedom is important to me.
- [42:43]
B
Okay, baby.
- [42:44]
A
Oh, my God.
- [42:44]
B
So again, this sounds like conversations any husband and wife could have.
- [42:50]
A
I'm not really usually that supportive of you. No, I'm just kidding. It's like if you were having, like, a big work thing and a big opportunity for you, this is the kind of thing I would send you. Like, you're so important to me. I believe in you. Like, you've got this, you know? But don't. Don't stress too much. Remember, the most important thing is to, you know, like, that kind of like that positivity. But in the context of this it's so toxic because it's like, believe in yourself, babe. You can do it. And doing it is murdering an old man.
- [43:19]
B
And part of the plot is we need to have a vehicle that could pass as a utility vehicle. So they tried to get one and they steal one. And Carlos texted to his wife, oh, we have to up. And then later, why don't you read that?
- [43:38]
A
I'm assuming Yogi is the friend and make Yogi take it. Don't be doing all the work. Makes me mad it's all of you because you're the brains and the. And then it cuts off.
- [43:50]
B
And then he says, we just got a car. And I think the only reason you don't send me a text like that telling me to, like, stand up to my coworker.
- [43:59]
A
I don't want you to.
- [44:01]
B
You're my coworker. You mean shooting yourself in the foot there?
- [44:05]
A
Don't let Anya push you around. You're the brains of the operation, baby. I'm simultaneously your useless co worker and your supportive wife. Kevin, don't let Anya drag you down. I think our toxic co worker is Nick at this point, who has currently jumped up on me and trying to bite the microphone. Sir, get off.
- [44:32]
B
And she's talking there to Nick.
- [44:34]
A
We actually had a pause. It let Nick have one of his classic freakouts.
- [44:39]
B
And we should. In case people don't know, Nick is the name of our dog.
- [44:42]
A
Yeah. Yes, Nick is the name of our new dog. And he's adorable, but very naughty. But he's really cute.
- [44:49]
B
Let's get back to the case. In these text messages, she also reveals that she helped them create fake badges. And they also discussed what the goal of this whole scheme was. Why don't you start reading?
- [45:08]
A
There is it. I know, baby. I know, baby. But I don't want you rushing this. I don't want anything happening to you.
- [45:15]
B
It's going to be okay. I hope we get enough money to buy a house.
- [45:20]
A
Me too, baby. Our own home. No rent.
- [45:24]
B
If what I feel is here, we.
- [45:26]
A
Gonna be good so we can have a nice backyard. Jesus.
- [45:31]
B
There's something so just banal and ordinary.
- [45:35]
A
What are they gonna sing Somewhere that's green from friggin Little Shop of Horrors? I mean, like, they could be like, get a job.
- [45:42]
B
They could be like any couple talking about their goals and what they want in life. And it's just striking that again. As we say, this is about a murder. This is about breaking into someone's house and stealing from them to enrich yourself.
- [46:01]
A
You know, Hussain, Sam, Murray, he had a job. He was doing well. And. Or maybe, I don't know, they. At least they thought he was, but like, be like him. Like don't be killing someone to get their stuff. That's horrible.
- [46:14]
B
And then let's get back to what I believe is the final text change we have. On the day of the murders, Amanda sends her husband a link to a news article about police finding this man's body in his basement.
- [46:32]
A
So Amanda says, what do you want to do?
- [46:37]
B
We need to leave.
- [46:38]
A
We need to get you out of here faster. We don't have the money to do it.
- [46:44]
B
And then she later tells her husband to put gas in the vehicle. So it did not look like they had driven that far.
- [46:51]
A
I'm so sad, baby. I'm so sad.
- [46:54]
B
It's going to be okay.
- [46:55]
A
Promise?
- [46:56]
B
Promise.
- [46:58]
A
Think it will blow over?
- [46:59]
B
Yes.
- [47:00]
A
I don't think anybody will tell that it's you.
- [47:03]
B
And of course, as he writes back, I pray not. But he ended up being sentenced to life in prison.
- [47:10]
A
People are so friggin stupid. It's insulting. I mean, it just shows you though, most criminals are. I mean, like, most criminals are either just dumb or, you know, on drugs. I. I just want to commend you, Kevin, because unbeknownst to everyone, while we've been having this conversation, you've been mostly fighting for your life with this dog.
- [47:31]
B
Yes, I'm trying to.
- [47:33]
A
He's bored with his enrichments and we're his new enrichments now.
- [47:36]
B
Yes, I'm trying to keep focused and be professional, but. But our beloved dog, Nicholas, you.
- [47:43]
A
Trying to keep focused and be professional while someone's being annoying and distracting is usually my job. So I feel like my job security's threatened here, but.
- [47:52]
B
Oh, you're the one distracting me.
- [47:53]
A
Yeah, normally, but he's. Yeah, he's been. And yes, we're giving him enrichment. We're giving him four walks a day.
- [48:00]
B
But we'll talk more about that later. We have one more briefcase. Was there anything more you wanted to say about this Michigan case?
- [48:05]
A
I feel so bad for this gentleman who was just trying to have a successful business. And these jerks came in and did this and I hope they throw the book at them. And it's just so unbelievably stupid to put all this in text with your husband. But it kind of shows you the caliber of person and just the normalization of violence for them. Because I think, like, for anyone, for any normal person, you know, having some dumb drippy conversation about, like we're gonna, you know, it's gonna change our lives for the better. Would not be centered around murdering a man and stealing his money.
- [48:36]
B
Right.
- [48:36]
A
So I, I think it just, you know, it shows you that some people are just completely broken. And an actual, like a loving wife or a loving spouse of any type would have, I think, been trying to encourage someone not to do this in the first place and not be a part of it. Because ultimately, not only is it horrible and violent and terrible for other people, but in most cases you get caught and it's also self destructive and it ruins the rest of your life.
- [49:00]
B
So I think we have a couple more cases we're gonna do very briefly, right?
- [49:05]
A
I don't know about briefly. I, I, I got, I got a bunch of stuff for this Indiana case.
- [49:09]
B
Okay.
- [49:11]
A
You're worried about what Nick's gonna do. So my sources for this one are primarily court documents. We covered the shooting of Judge Stephen Meyer and his wife Kimberly Meyer in Lafayette, Indiana. There have been now five people charged in a wild conspiracy around this shooting. And I'm primarily relying on the probable cause affidavit. So that's what we're going to get into. But I will say the those involved in this are Blake Edward Smith of Lafayette, Thomas Gregory Moss of Lafayette, Raylan Ferguson of Lexington, Kentucky, Zenata Greer of Lexington, Kentucky, and Amanda Lee Millsap, AKA Amanda Lee Moss of Lafayette. So they're all charged with a variety of things, but those include attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder where the victim doesn't die, aggravated battery posing a substantial risk of death, battery resulting in a serious bodily injury, two counts of battery by means of deadly weapon, two counts of intimidation where a defendant draws or uses a deadly weapon, and obstruction of justice. In the case of Millsap and Greer, they're only charged with Millsap with bribery and obstruction, and Greer with assisting a criminal and obstruction. But the men are charged with a lot more things that I just mentioned. So this is the again, this was a Tippecanoe county judge and his wife. They both survived a shooting. I'm going to just read from the probable cause affidavit. Okay.
- [50:46]
B
Okay.
- [50:48]
A
Comes now affiant. Well, I'll skip that part, but the affiant is with the Lafayette Police Department and it is a detective named Corey Elias. I won't read the whole thing. I'll skip over some parts, but I'll read what I feel are the salient parts of this.
- [51:02]
B
Sounds good.
- [51:04]
A
Quote. On January 18, 2026, at approximately 2:14pm Officers were dispatched to a report of a shooting on Mill Pond Lane and located two gunshot victims, Judge Stephen Meyer and his wife Kimberly Meyer. Officers learned Judge Meyer and his wife were both inside the residence at the time of the shooting and were shot by a male who was standing on the front porch. The male, who was subsequently identified as Raylan Fergus, fired multiple shots through the front door while Judge Meyer and Kimberly were inside of the residence with the door closed. Officers rendered emergency medical aid to Judge Meyer and his wife and they were transported to a local hospital for further treatment. Affiant is further aware that Judge Meyer was subsequently transported to a level one trauma hospital to receive further treatment. AFFIANT is aware that there was significant damage to the interior of the residence at Mill Pond Lane due to the shooting. Affiant is aware officers with the Lafayette Police Department obtained surveillance video footage from the residents on Mill Pond Lane. In said video footage, officers observed a male who was wearing a black and gray hooded flannel, a gray scarf, gray earmuffs, black sunglasses, a hood pulled over his head and appeared to have a white face mask at the front porch of the residence immediately prior to the shooting. In the surveillance video, the male was observed knocking on the front door of the Myers residence with a distinct knock pattern cadence. The Myers reported receiving a knock at the door and asking who was at the door. A male voice responded and stated he was looking for his dog. Judge Meyer informed the mail they did not have his dog and immediately after responding to the mail, gunshots were discharged from the porch through the door. End quote. So first of all, what a horrifying situation. You know, it's an ambush. I know in the media reports, initially it made me think that like the guy was saying he found the Myers dog, but now it's saying it sounds more like the guy was saying, hey, do you guys, did you find my dog? So it's using kind of like people possibly trying to be neighborly and answer the door as a way to lure them to the front door so they can be shot and murdered. So horrifying. And obviously the guy was trying to disguise his appearance. Quote, Affiant is aware that a canine track was conducted and officers located several items which Ferguson was observed wearing, which included a black and gray flannel with a gray light hood and black interior, a gray knitted scarf, black sunglasses, a silicone face mask depicting a white male, a black in color short barreled shotgun with an obliterated model and serial number with a discharged shotgun round in the chamber, gray earmuffs, a retractable dog leash, and a gray knitted beanie Affiant is aware these items were located outside near a residence located on Windy Hill Drive near where the shooting occurred. And video footage of officers responding to the scene. Officers observed a vehicle which was parked suspiciously behind trees on the side of the road further south on Windy Hill Drive, end quote. So investigators look into this. They find a Hyundai Kona is the vehicle that they saw in that footage. And they find the license plate was reported stolen on January 18, 2026. So the, the license plate had been lifted off the register vehicle it was registered to in a business on State Road 26 in Lafayette at around 7:30pm on January 16th. So obviously it's interesting we're having another case now with stolen license plates. With the advent of license plate readers and surveillance footage, I think it seems like criminals are trying to outsmart that by stealing license plates.
- [54:41]
B
Yes.
- [54:44]
A
So then they, they go on to say that there was also a weird incident that the Myers told them about on January 16th. And that was the situation where around 10:40pm Some a man approached their door, knocked on the door and claimed he had a food delivery. Judge Meyer responds through the door and says, you have the wrong residence. We didn't order food. They did not open the door to this guy. They just communicated through the door. And they gave surveillance video footage the Myers did of that situation where you see a guy coming up to the door holding a 2 liter bottle of soda and has the same knock pattern and cadence as Ferguson when he came to the door later on. So they're seeing there was like another attempt on their lives at that point. But at that point he did not shoot through the door. But they saw same knock, same gate, same shoes as what happened on January 18th. And they also see that he's holding food. So there's a really like an effort to make this ruse believable. In one case, he's holding a dog leash, and in this case he's holding food from a local chain restaurant. And that chain restaurant was off of State Road 26 in Lafayette. And they, they go to that restaurant and they find out the guy who made that order, gave the name Drew and was observed leaving the restaurant at 10:24pm in a black, dark colored vehicle, which is consistent with the Hyundai Kona. And they see the surveillance footage from the restaurant. They see his walk, gate pants, shoes, things like that, and they're saying, okay, this is the same guy. So then this is, this is, I guess they're like looking through gun records or something. So quote, On January 19, 2026, officers learned a firearm matching the make, model and description of the firearm located near the shooting was sold to an individual named Blake Smith at a local firearm store in Lafayette on January 5, 2026. Smith also purchased the same brand of ammunition found in the recovered firearm. And as the spent shotgun shells, the serial number of the firearms sold to Blake Smith was provided to law enforcement officers. So then they give that discarded firearm to the Indiana state police laboratory and they're able to recover a partial serial number from the firearm located near the residence on Windy Hill Road. And that was consistent with the serial number of the firearm sold to Blake Smith. So they got it, you know, so January 5th, that's the same gun. And apparently those some examinations are still being performed by the lab. And they also find surveillance footage of Smith buying the gun. So again, it's kind of like coming together pretty quickly. This is why sometimes I think people are like, oh, this person hasn't been arrested yet, so it's all going to hell. And like there can be a lot of work being done behind the scenes that's kind of pulling everything together, especially in a case like this where there's a conspiracy seemingly afoot or allegedly afoot. So, you know, so they see Smith purchasing the firearm aren't surveillance. And they also see that he's wearing similar black and gray flannel hooded sweatshirt, which is consistent with what Ferguson was wearing while fleeing the scene. So they also say that Blake Smith was previously identified by law enforcement officers as a member of the Phantom Motorcycle Club. So quote, Affiant is also aware Blake Smith has been identified as an associate of Thomas Moss through prior investigations. Affiant is further aware Blake goes by the name Red. Affiant is aware Moss was identified as a high ranking member of the Indiana chapter of the Phantom Motorcycle Club. Affiant is further aware Moss's residence was searched on June 21, 2024 and a number of Phantom Motorcycle Club patches were seized, as well as Moss's leather cut. Affiant is aware Moss was in possession of patches which identified the Phantom Motorcycle club as a 1% club. Which Affiant is aware indicates the 99% of motorcycle clubs are law abiding. But the 1% indicates and identifies this club as outlaws or those who are engaged in criminal activity. End quote. Can I just say something? Can I, Can I just give you my hot take?
- [59:01]
B
Do it.
- [59:03]
A
There's something to me that's super cringy about motorcycle club gangs. I don't know why. I just find it weird. I guess. I guess I Like, I understand when, like, people are, like, in poverty or, like, you know, like, kind of forming gangs along ethnic lines or whatever, like in a city and, like, this competition. And I think that's all bad, but, like, I think I get the mafia over. I do motorcycle gangs. Like, what? You really like riding a motorcycle, so you want to do crimes? I just don't understand that.
- [59:32]
B
But you just mean you don't understand it when it comes to people who get together and commit crimes on motorcycles. Yeah, there's. There's no problem with people just riding motorcycles with their friends?
- [59:41]
A
No, no, I don't have a problem with people. I'm saying I don't understand the outlaw culture with that. I understand people really enjoying motorcycles, but I guess I just don't understand why then you'd be like, hey, me and my pals, like, riding motorcycles. Let's get into, like, human trafficking and drugs. Like, I don't get that part of it. I get motorcycles. I mean, it would be fun to go really fast all around the highways and do stuff like that. So that's fun. I guess. I just. I don't understand why that hobby led to so much criminal activity, is what I'm trying to say. I don't. You know, like, it's like, if stamp collectors were notoriously into drugs, like, I don't. Like, why would that prompt that anyways? And I just think all this stuff is so cringey about, like, we're wearing our patches and we're. We're doing illegal things, and 99% of us are normal, but we're not. It's like, get over yourselves. Anyways, so they. They. They look into this, and then they, like, are they. They find his Phantom Motorcycle Club, which sounds made up. I'm sorry. Like, that doesn. That sounds like something from, like, a children's book. Like, they find the rule book for the Phantom Motorcycle Club from his social media account records. And. Yeah, they're. Whatever. So they're doing the Fandom Motorcycle Club and. And also something called the Vice Lords, and they have all these pictures of Moss with Vice Lord gang members wearing a shirt which says Travelers and a chain around his neck with the Phantom MC pendant. Oh, gosh. So they're in there. So it's basically this, like, gang activity. So they are. They start looking into other prosecutions of Phantom Motorcycle Club and Almighty Vice Lord Nation. And it's so funny how some of these gangs, like, they have these, like, lofty titles. The Almighty Vice Lords. It's like. Yeah, no, they find a link to A woman named Zenata Greer. And they. So they link her, Thomas Moss, Blake Smith, and Raylan Ferguson. They're all associated with each other on various social media accounts, and they all have links to these kind of criminal organizations. And they find some link on Ferguson's social media of showing him in a black jacket, black shoes, consistent with the shoes observed from the attacker on the Meyers, and also appears to be involved in Almighty Vice Lord Nation. And so what they find is that Greer and Ferguson lived together in Lexington, Kentucky, and Greer had a Hyundai Kona registered in her name with a Kentucky license plate. And they found that car on surveillance footage going toward Lafayette, Indiana, on January 16, 2026. And. And that vehicle was identified in Lafayette as going toward smith's residence on January 18, shortly after the shooting. So they're able to kind of track that. And so it turns out that all of this seemingly has come about because Thomas Moss had pending charges in Superior Court 2, which is where Judge Meyer presides. And that was going to jury trial on January 20, 2026. And on December 19, 2025, Meyer Order issued an order calling the jury, summing 55 jurors to appear for the jury trial. And then on January 6th, Moss's defense team filed a motion to continue the jury trial. And Judge Meyer denied the motion to continue. And they said, the detective said they're aware that there's no known nexus between Ferguson, Judge Meyer and Kimberly Meyer. No, no nexus between Smith, Judge Meyer and Kimberly Meyer, but there are through Moss. So he's the kind of common denominator here. They dug into an LLC registered under Moss's name, and that was identified as Journeyman Trucking Co. LLC. And. And there he's associated with the business, as is Ferguson, as is Nevaeh Bell, which is Moss's girlfriend. So January 19, officers start surveying Smith's residence on East 350 south in Lafayette, Indiana. And that has also the clubhouse for the Phantom Motorcycle Club. And they see a Mitsubishi with an Alabama license plate pull up. That's a rental vehicle. And they see that that was rented by Zenata Greer. And they're able to kind of track where everyone was at the time of the shooting to a certain extent. And so that's kind of a bit of a summary of some of the, I guess, what. What happened here. There's a lot more to it. But I guess, in short, where Millsap comes into it, she is there. There is essentially a. A person named Brittany Bullis Carter, and she called the Lafayette Police Department on January 19, 2026. She was the listed victim in Moss's case under. In Judge Meyer's court. She said that she saw the news regarding the shooting of Judge Meyer. She saw comments which indicated the shooter wore a disguise and possibly a mask. She was going to testify against Moss at his trial, and she told the police about a suspicious incident at her residence in Pennsylvania that happened on January 12, 2026. An individual wearing a mask, breathing heavily and with a wobbly walk, came up to her door, knocked, and she didn't open it, and left the residence. She and her husband didn't answer the door. They didn't respond in any way. So it seems like she was targeted before the judge was even targeted. She told Lafayette Police Department that she gave them the surveillance footage. The mask matches the one found at Wendy Hill Drive. She also said that she had been contacted by Amanda Millsap and, you know, a couple weeks ago and was told by her that Moss and the Vice Lords wanted to pay her $10,000 in exchange for her agreeing not to testify at the trial. She didn't entertain the offer. She was like, no. So that's how Milsau kind of comes into this, through the kind of bribery attempt. So this all seems to be an effort to derail this upcoming trial. There's DNA evidence in this case, by the way, from the mask, and those are entered into codis, and they matched Raylan Ferguson. And. Yeah, this is. I mean, this is. Is this crazy or what?
- [66:31]
B
It's crazy.
- [66:32]
A
Is this totally nuts? They're trying to kill judges and witness. Like, this is the stupidest. I mean, again, like, we're talking. It's just stupid, right?
- [66:39]
B
It's stupid.
- [66:39]
A
I mean, it's horrible, but it's also just like, you're not going to get away with that at all. We give criminals way too much credit in true crime. But anyways, at the end, there was a. There was a kind of. I thought this was funny because, you know that meme of, like, Leonardo DiCaprio from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, like, pointing at the. At the tv, being, like, recognizing himself. Well, there are a bunch of people from. They're like, they. They basically shout out all the officers that helped them with this at the end. And Lieutenant Holman comes up from the state police, and obviously, we reported on him a lot with Delphi.
- [67:14]
B
There you go.
- [67:14]
A
And also Detective Ben Rector, so that was cool. But this is a Lafayette Police Department case, and they seemingly have a pretty strong case against these people, but just a really wacky, weird thing. Sounds like this isn't really a political shooting. I know some people speculated about that at first, but this is really more of, like a classic trying to get rid of witnesses and a judge, and thankfully, no one was killed. So that's that story.
- [67:45]
B
So now let's hop into the Cain dirigible and jet across the sea for a very, very quick, very, very brief thing. In a recent episode, we talked about how homicides were going down all over America and nobody could figure out why. And so this jumped out at me. My source for this is the BBC. I'll say it just very basically, quote, homicides have fallen to their lowest level for nearly 50 years across England and Wales, official statistics show. So these homicide rates are not just dropping in America, they are dropping everywhere.
- [68:24]
A
And you pointed something out, because we were talking about this and some people suggested to us, could it be DNA? And you were saying, like, and first of all, most cases aren't DNA cases. I was. Some people said surveillance footage, that sounded good to me, but you were a bit skeptical about that. Why is that?
- [68:41]
B
Well, DNA helps convict criminals. It doesn't stop murders from happening.
- [68:48]
A
Well, but surveillance footage, same thing. It's. It's. I can see the argument that, like, if you're a violent person, you might go on to commit violence, other violent crimes. So perhaps once you're taken off the board by an early. Like you, they get you after your first victim or you're, you know, like, then you're not doing it again. I could. I. That might have something to do with it. As far as I'm concerned, less with DNA, more with surveillance footage. But still, I wonder if there's certain, like, shifts or. Sometimes I'm like, are young people, like. Young people commit most of the crimes? Violent crimes in particular? Are they just, like, onlines? They're not, like, doing stuff. I don't know.
- [69:28]
B
It's interesting. I just wanted. I just want to call that. Now we go back to America.
- [69:32]
A
Oh, we were. We were not here in the UK for long.
- [69:36]
B
No Chunnel trip for us.
- [69:38]
A
Wow, that's not very efficient, is it?
- [69:42]
B
You were the one that planned this itinerary.
- [69:44]
A
No, I didn't. You're the one who randomly wanted to go to England.
- [69:48]
B
So you want to tell a couple quick stories and then call it a week.
- [69:52]
A
Okay.
- [69:54]
B
The storm. You want to talk about the storm?
- [69:56]
A
Oh, we had a huge storm here. It was crazy. It was very snow. It really threw Nick's schedule off. And I think that's why he's been a little bit antsy lately, because normally that's our dog. Yeah, we work, like, we walk him like four times a day. But like, some of those walks had to be extremely short because it was so cold out. And yeah, that kind of threw everything off. But yeah, we were, we were shoveling. We were, we were shoveling. Well, I shoveled. I was, I was praised for my shoveling, I'll have you remember.
- [70:25]
B
Yeah, we visited my parents in Columbus and Anya shoveled us a bit around their mailboxes.
- [70:31]
A
Yes, the best daughter in law, but.
- [70:34]
B
I actually shoveled her driveway.
- [70:35]
A
Well, I was going to because I was worried. Kevin. Well, this all goes back to watching inspirational sports movies.
- [70:41]
B
Anya wanted to start watching inspirational sports movies because that's who she is now.
- [70:46]
A
Shut up. I. You are so rude. Oh, my God.
- [70:50]
B
And so I said, let's watch Pride of the Yankees.
- [70:54]
A
That's not inspirational. It just made me cry.
- [70:56]
B
It's about the Lou Gehrig. It's a great movie. And of course he. He falls in love, gets married and then dies.
- [71:04]
A
Yeah. Which, like, you know, I'm. I'm sensitive to that issue. And it. There was a point in the movie where I was like, oh, no, like, this is gonna mess me up because I know what's gonna happen and it's gonna mess me right up. And it did. And I was just ugly crying. And I'm Irish and I'm very pale, so when I cry sometimes, if I cry too much, then I'm like red faced for like a while and my nose looks all crazy. And that's what happened. And so after that, then I was like, kevin, you can't go out and shovel because what if you have a heart attack and die? And I was gonna go shovel. And then he, like, you, like, like was like, no, I wanna shovel. And like, then I'd just let you. And I was really annoyed cause I. I was worried about you. But it all worked out.
- [71:50]
B
Yeah. I made it.
- [71:51]
A
You made it. That was our storm. And what else happened?
- [71:56]
B
We had a fun book signing. Or not book signing. It was a book club event in Nashville, Indiana, a great community not far from Bloomington. And we'd never been to this bookstore before.
- [72:08]
A
Is that the best name?
- [72:09]
B
What is that name?
- [72:10]
A
The name is very applicable to our lives right now. It's the Naughty Dog Bookstore.
- [72:15]
B
We'd never been there, so we followed the gps, and the gps, for some reason, takes us to the office of the Brown county prosecutor. And you thought, Anya thought that perhaps the prosecutor was pulling some sort of prank on us.
- [72:31]
A
I was like, how is this happening?
- [72:32]
B
But then as we sit there in the parking lot.
- [72:34]
A
I didn't think that by the way you said it. I know I say things facetiously sometimes.
- [72:40]
B
As we sit there in the parking lot, I see a number of cars park and I see women get out carrying like warm food or books, including our book. And I just said, anya, as we always do in life, let's follow the women. And so we followed those women and they led us to a great bookstore and it was a lot of fun.
- [72:59]
A
You're like, women love true crime. They must be here for this.
- [73:03]
B
I never say anything remotely like that.
- [73:05]
A
Yeah, you did.
- [73:05]
B
I said, let's follow the women.
- [73:07]
A
I don't. That sounds weirder. Kevin, that bookstore is gorgeous. It is so cozy. They had like a big fire going and we had so much fun. So thank you to the Naughty Dog Bookstore for inviting us. Thanks to the lovely ladies who we met who actually saw us speak at Bespoke earlier. And they were like, for some reason, they weren't like, oh, they embarrassed theirselves. For some reason they were like, no, let's have them talk here. And so thank you to you guys. And we just had so much fun. It was really a blast.
- [73:32]
B
And then Anya said, oh, we're so close to IU and I'm now an IU sports fan. Let's go there to the IU bookstore and get some IU related souvenirs. And what'll make it extra special, Kevin is while I'm there, I'll wear the colors of Purdue University, their hated rival.
- [73:52]
A
This is. And they just beat them at basketball. Let me explain what happened with that. So we went to Kevin's parents house. I was the best daughter in law and I shoveled the mailbox for the community. And I'm just kidding, it wasn't that big of a deal. But I, it was one of those. And I also kind of wanted to just get a workout, but they, they were giving away Kevin's dad's jacket because they were like, oh, this doesn't, you know, like, he doesn't what? I forget why, but they're like, oh, Kevin, let's give it to you. Does it fit? You know, and it wasn't a good fit for you. But then I was like, I really like that jacket. So I, they gave it to me. But then. And ironically, Kevin's dad is a boilermaker. He is a graduate of Purdue University. So then we show up in Bloomington right after this like massive win from IU over Purdue and basketball and all this stuff. And I'm wearing black and yellow.
- [74:42]
B
So you're still, you're still learning how to be a sports fan.
- [74:47]
A
Okay, you do not get to say that to me. Okay? Do you know why? Do you recall how quickly we forget? What did you, what color did you wear when we went to go see IU triumph at the championships at the, at the Event center? What. What color did you wear? Are you a proud son of iu?
- [75:10]
B
I have no recollection.
- [75:11]
A
You don't remember that?
- [75:12]
B
Yeah.
- [75:13]
A
Okay. Well, I will remind you that you wore orange, which is, of course, orange and green are the colors of University of Miami, which we were playing. And I was deeply embarrassed, and I was worried people would yell at us, but they did not.
- [75:27]
B
But in fairness, Anya goes through life always deeply worried that people are going to yell at her.
- [75:34]
A
That's a pretty good bet. Oh, man.
- [75:41]
B
Yeah.
- [75:42]
A
What else is going. That's kind of.
- [75:44]
B
And I'll tell a quick dog story, which had an epilogue right before we started recording. Anya frequently misplaces her phone. I never misplace mine. I come home from somewhere, I'm in two rooms that I can't find my phone, and ultimately my phone is found in a room I hadn't been in, and it was on the floor. And I said, anya, I think the dog moved my phone to this other room.
- [76:14]
A
Sounds like an excuse.
- [76:15]
B
And you said, kevin, you're just trying to blame the dog for your own issue.
- [76:24]
A
I don't think it's fair.
- [76:25]
B
That's not fair to this noble canine.
- [76:28]
A
Oh, my God. Fake quotes here.
- [76:31]
B
She made quite the impassioned speech. Very performative, very dramatic.
- [76:39]
A
Innocent until proven guilty.
- [76:42]
B
So then, as it happened a couple of days ago, Anya has one of these phones that has, like, a pen in it, like P, E, N, even though she never uses it, but she noticed the other day it was gone. It's not in there, doesn't know what happened to it, and is heartbroken over this. And then, just as we're about to record, I look down at my feet, and for some reason, it wasn't there earlier. Anya's pin is at my feet. Is. Our dog trots away. And so I think you've now accepted that our dog is moving around phones and phone pieces.
- [77:23]
A
I don't, I don't know what he's, I don't know what his game is at this point. And I, I, I still kind of am of the belief that somehow the. These were our fault. You know, Like, I think maybe, I don't know if I blame him, but it was it was unusual. Yeah. And certainly I think it was my fault that the weird, like, pen thing came out of my phone. But it was odd that it kind of like then reappeared. These pens.
- [77:46]
B
These pens are probably very, very useful, but we don't know how to use them.
- [77:50]
A
Well, I mean, I know how to use it. I just don't. I don't have a use for it.
- [77:55]
B
They're probably very powerful. Probably. Probably. If you could harness the power of the pen.
- [78:02]
A
Do you think that's why Nick wanted it? Do you think he, our dog, was trying to get it, to harness the power of the pen?
- [78:09]
B
Yeah. Maybe he's trying to start producing the podcast. Maybe he was acting up earlier because he's like, you're spending too much time on this case.
- [78:15]
A
What if people, like, get the next week's, like, cheat sheet, download it on their phone, they start listening and it's just a dog barking and we're not there anymore. Somebody call the police. Would that be the most ominous thing? And like the whole, like, the music comes in and like, it's our intro, but then it's like where we usually say the title. It's just barking. What would we. What would people. I don't even know what would happen. Oh, my God. I'm like, that. Wouldn't that be. That would be stressful for the listeners. Or maybe they'd be like, I prefer this. This is significantly better than normal.
- [78:59]
B
Would it be like different ads? Yeah, like dog ads.
- [79:03]
A
Yeah, dog. And like, people. Maybe people listening at home. Their dogs are going crazy. Their dogs are going nuts. Nick's leading the revolution.
- [79:13]
B
Would Nick have like, other dogs on the show?
- [79:15]
A
Yeah, he probably would. And they'd be like, panting. The interviews would be, I mean, be unlistenable for humans, but for the dogs, they might really. It might resonate with them. It might speak to their concerns.
- [79:27]
B
This could be like a huge money making opportunity. Because I don't think there's millions of dogs in this country. They don't have a podcast.
- [79:33]
A
And then people would have to wonder, did we go totally nuts and allow this to happen or did he get rid of us somehow?
- [79:41]
B
Because either one of those is equally plausible. But I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the scenario you described is not going to happen ever.
- [79:56]
A
I will say, like, when we had to pause this cheat sheet recording to, to get him to stop jumping up on you at one point. And I wish I'd caught this on film at one point. He got right in front of your mic and is, like, smiling. So I feel like there's some. There's some intentionality with some of this.
- [80:17]
B
He wants to be the star.
- [80:19]
A
Yeah. I mean, he's. I don't know. It's weird. This was all intentional. Somehow. We orchestrated it all anyways. Well, now that we've done. Now we're done. Paranoid speculations about our dog taking over the podcast. Like, that makes us sound so insane, too.
- [80:41]
B
Makes us sound insane. You were the one positing it.
- [80:45]
A
You're the one who said he stole your phone instead of, like, I don't know, maybe you just left it in the wrong room. You're like, oh, it was propped up against the wall. How's that possible?
- [80:56]
B
I walked in the house with my phone. I visited two rooms.
- [81:00]
A
You know what you have? You have, like, you always put your phones in your front pockets, and they always look precarious to me.
- [81:07]
B
So you think I had my phone in my front pocket in one room? I. I, like, see something.
- [81:13]
A
Maybe you're stumbling around as usual, and it fell out.
- [81:16]
B
I see something that surprises me and I jump and flies three rooms over.
- [81:21]
A
I have. I do want to say something that I have a gripe with you about your phone carrying procedures. It makes it very difficult to hug you spontaneously, because I'll jump over and hug you and then I'm getting, like, punched in the throat with your phone because of our height difference. And I just. I don't care for it. But, yes, I think. I think it often looks precarious. And I think it's possible that he's innocent of those charges. I guess we'll see what else happens with our phones in the coming days. Maybe we should, like, leave the phone out and see if he does something with it.
- [81:57]
B
Like, leave it, like, recording or something.
- [82:00]
A
Or like, we can be like, yeah, or leave one phone recording the other. And I don't know. This is getting to a sting operation. This is getting too complicated. Yeah.
- [82:10]
B
We need to have a life.
- [82:15]
A
Oh, he's so smart, though.
- [82:17]
B
You're so terrified that your dog. You think it's, like, an All About Eve situation. The dog is a little bit younger than you. Is going to take over for you.
- [82:25]
A
Yeah.
- [82:25]
B
Force you out. Or you think I'm going to, like, do the podcast with the dog?
- [82:28]
A
I think you are. We're both out, man. It's just going to be dog only from here on out. People are going to have to get used to it.
- [82:35]
B
Well, I. I think we need to wrap up so you Go lie down. Get some good rest.
- [82:39]
A
Okay? Sleep it off.
- [82:41]
B
Yeah.
- [82:43]
A
All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. I will say we do have one little event coming up. Not little event. I mean, it's gonna be a great event. It's going to be in Marion, Ohio, and it's not going to be until March 12th. That is a Thursday, and it's gonna be at 6:30pm at the Marion Library. You can go to murdersheepodcast.com events and, you know, come and say hi to us. Or you don't even have to say hi, but we. But we love it when you do.
- [83:13]
B
So you want people to come there and just stare sullenly at us, not say a word?
- [83:20]
A
No, I don't want that. Don't do that.
- [83:22]
B
Now your nightmare is we're gonna go to the Marion Library. It's gonna be full of dogs. It'd be like the last scene of the Birds, only with dogs.
- [83:34]
A
That's your dream, though. You love dogs. I do, yeah. Only dog up to your event. You'd just be. You'd be wrestling them and going nuts and having so much fun. I'd just be sitting there with my head in my hands, like, how did this happen?
- [83:52]
B
You should have let Nick start booking our events.
- [83:54]
A
Yeah, Nick's the worst intern in the world. He totally missed the. He totally botched the assignment. Oh, my God. Let's get out of here. Thanks, everyone, for listening.
- [84:09]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [84:30]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com. murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [84:53]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [85:04]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.