The Cheat Sheet: Daycares and Divorces

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - "The Cheat Sheet: Daycares and Divorces"

Release Date: May 23, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Introduction to Today's Topics

In this episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into a series of gripping true crime cases spanning the United Kingdom and several states in the U.S., including Indiana, Ohio, and Missouri. The episode, titled "The Cheat Sheet: Daycares and Divorces," explores complex narratives involving daycare misconduct, self-defense claims in murder convictions, attorney-related homicides, and harassment leading to legal repercussions.

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Case 1: Martina Ogunowska - Self-Defense or Cold-Blooded Murder? (07:14 - 17:07)

Location: United Kingdom

Summary:
Martina Ogunowska, an 18-year-old woman with a traumatic past, was convicted for the murder of Philip Jaskowitz. The case has sparked significant debate over whether her actions constituted self-defense against sexual assault or were a result of premeditated intent.

Key Points:

• Background: Ogunowska had a history of being bullied and suffered severe post-traumatic stress disorder from being raped at age 14.

• The Incident (October 20, 2018): After a drunken argument, Jaskowitz aggressively approached Ogunowska, allegedly sexually assaulting her. In response, Ogunowska, armed with a knife provided by a friend, stabbed him accidentally during the struggle, leading to his death.

• Legal Debate:
  "He grabbed her by the neck, forcing her to her knees. That's an assault that could injure somebody." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [10:25]

  The defense argues self-defense due to the sexual assault, while prosecution highlights that Ogunowska remained in the situation, complicating her self-defense claim.

Insights:
The case underscores the complexities of self-defense laws, especially when the accused has a history of trauma and the confrontation involves potential sexual violence. Hosts discuss the societal and legal perceptions of such defenses and the implications of Ogunowska's sentence.

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Case 2: Gabriel Garner - Daycare Horror in Indiana (21:03 - 39:12)

Location: Hendricks County, Indiana

Summary:
Gabriel Garner, a daycare employee at Main Street University for Kids in Brownsburg, Indiana, faces 43 felony charges, including child molestation and possession of child sexual abuse materials. The case reveals systemic failures in reporting and addressing abuse within childcare institutions.

Key Points:

• Allegations:
  "In the first incident, Garner asked a five-year-old girl to kiss him before a nap during the day." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [24:04]

  Over multiple incidents, Garner engaged in inappropriate behavior with children, including sending explicit texts about a child’s foot fetish.

• Institutional Failures:
  The daycare staff, including owners Nancy Minton and Jennifer Lingbeck, failed to report these incidents to authorities, even when parents raised concerns. Instead, they attempted to discredit the claims using surveillance footage with blind spots.

• Whistleblower:
  An initially reporting teacher acted as a whistleblower, questioning the lack of proper reporting and confronting the daycare management, ultimately receiving threats.

Insights:
The discussion highlights the critical importance of mandatory reporting laws and the moral responsibility of caregivers and institutions to protect children. The hosts express frustration over the daycare's attempts to gaslight the victims' families and the broader implications for child safety in educational environments.

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Case 3: Gregory Moore - Attorney Accused of Orchestrating Homicide in Ohio (39:32 - 55:36)

Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Summary:
Gregory Moore, a 51-year-old divorce attorney, has been indicted for the 2013 murder of his client, Eliza Sherman. Prosecutors allege that Moore orchestrated the killing to obstruct court proceedings in her divorce case.

Key Points:

• The Crime (March 24, 2013):
  Eliza Sherman was waiting outside Moore's law office for a divorce meeting when she was brutally stabbed to death. Sherman managed to call the police after the attack.

• Investigation and Indictment:
  Years of meticulous investigation led to Moore's arrest in May 2025. Evidence, including cell phone records and electronic access hacking, suggests Moore manipulated communications to create a false narrative of his innocence during and after the assault.

• Prosecutor's Statement:
  "The Sherman family has waited over a decade for answers regarding their mother's homicide... Gregory Moore orchestrated and participated in the brutal murder of Eliza Sherman." – Prosecutor Michael C. O' Malley [40:38]

• Motive:
  The indictment details Moore's intent to prevent Judge Rosemary Gina Gold from conducting the divorce trial by incapacitating Sherman.

Insights:
This case raises questions about ethical practices within the legal profession and the lengths to which individuals might go to manipulate legal outcomes. Hosts discuss the betrayal of trust inherent in attorney-client relationships and the disturbing methods alleged to have been employed by Moore.

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Case 4: Brendan T. Yeager - Harassment Leading to Charges in Missouri (57:32 - 68:57)

Location: Shaw Park, Clayton, Missouri

Summary:
Brendan T. Yeager, 28, was arrested and charged with multiple counts of first-degree harassment after allegedly chasing and making women uncomfortable in a public park.

Key Points:

• Allegations:
  Three women reported being chased by Yeager in Shaw Park, with one woman being followed all the way to her apartment building.

• Police Response:
  The Clayton Police Department took these allegations seriously, highlighting the potential for such harassment to escalate into more severe violent crimes.

• Hosts' Perspective:
  "There's like all kinds of just harassment that can go down... when people are engaging in really antisocial behavior, that should be punished and that should be taken seriously." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [58:42]

Insights:
The hosts emphasize the importance of taking harassment seriously to prevent potential escalations. They discuss societal attitudes towards harassment and the need for accountability to ensure public safety and personal comfort in shared spaces.

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Concluding Remarks and Upcoming Projects (55:38 - 70:18)

As the episode wraps up, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee share updates on their forthcoming book, Shadow of the Bridge, anticipated for release in August 2025. They also engage in a light-hearted discussion about attending the Indianapolis 500, highlighting the balance between their intense true crime investigations and personal interests.

Promotional Notes:

• Book Launch:
  "Pre-order it if you can. We always appreciate that." – Áine Cain [61:13]

• Merchandise:
  Listeners are encouraged to support the show by purchasing merchandise at murdersheetshop.com.

Notable Quotes

• On Self-Defense vs. Murder:
  "He grabbed her by the neck, forcing her to her knees. That's an assault that could injure somebody." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [10:25]

• On Institutional Failure:
  "Victim six's mother explained that they have recently met with therapists for Victim 6." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [31:00]

• On Gregory Moore's Indictment:
  "Gregory Moore orchestrated and participated in the brutal murder of Eliza Sherman." – Prosecutor O' Malley [40:38]

• On Harassment and Accountability:
  "When people are engaging in really antisocial behavior, that should be punished and that should be taken seriously." – Unnamed Speaker 3 [58:42]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Murder Sheet offers a profound exploration of how systemic failures, personal traumas, and ethical breaches can intertwine, leading to tragic outcomes. By dissecting each case with journalistic rigor and legal insight, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the multifaceted nature of true crime.

For those seeking more information or wishing to support the podcast, visit murder sheet mail.com or join their Patreon at www.patreon.com/murdersheet.

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This summary is intended to provide an overview of the podcast episode for those who have not listened to it. All case details are based on the transcript provided and are presented for informational purposes only.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

Episode contains discussion of sexual violence, the.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Sexual exploitation of children, as well as violence and murder. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we are going to be going abroad to the United Kingdom. Then we're going to Indiana and our neighbor Ohio and Missouri. So that's where we're going.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And I will say again, for complicated production reasons, we've had to record this episode in advance. And so, just as she did with last week's episode, Anya prepared this completely on her own. So she'll be calling the shots.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll be dancing to her tune.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So when this crashes and burns, you.

[Anya Cain]

Will know who is to blame.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And that person is me, Anya Cain.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

The Kane plane is going to crash. Is that what you're telling us?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Or the Kane train's going to go off the rails. We don't know the. The serial heist is going to get busted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, you may not realize this, Anya, but at the beginning of an episode.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

You'Re supposed to encourage people to listen. And if you tell them, I'm keeping.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It real, Kevin, I keep it real. That's what the people want. That's what the people demand. They know that I'm gonna keep it real. So this is another. Oh, another thing. So it's May 16th when we're recording this. So, you know, if something develops in these cases in the meantime, I apologize, but that is when we were recording this. Here's something to keep in mind.

[Anya Cain]

May 16, we learned from checking out.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Our friends at the gallery, the Prosecutors Podcasts Facebook group. It's their anniversary. It's their podcast anniversary. So this is the day they started the podcast. And I wanted to shout them out. They've been doing recently what I've been Following is just their amazing coverage of the trial of Karen Reed in Massachusetts. She's accused of killing her then boyfriend, a police officer by the name of John o' Keefe. They're just very level headed as usual. Very good stuff. So love them. They're awesome people and they're great professionally. Love to have them in the true crime space, so wanted to shout them out on their podcast anniversary. Although it doesn't matter because everyone's gonna be hearing this like a week later, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And speaking though of good work and.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Great shows, Anya did great work on this episode. It's gonna be terrific. And it's not gonna crash and burn.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At all, is it?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Anya, hurry up and push the button.

[Anya Cain]

Jesus. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Daycares and divorces.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

It.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this first case that we're going.

[Anya Cain]

To be doing on today's Cheat Sheet is from the United Kingdom.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And this is a case that's gotten a lot of attention recently.

[Anya Cain]

And thank you so much to the listener who suggested it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I believe somebody posted it in our Facebook group. My sources for this were the Guardian and Peterborough Today. And this is one of those things where it's really interesting when you read an initial article, sometimes it kind of makes you think one way and then another article makes you think completely differently. It kind of shows you that sometimes there can be a lot of, I don't even want to say bias, but there can just be. When you select certain facts and highlight those, it just changes your perception.

[Anya Cain]

It's important to really dig into things.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I think this is the case of Martina Ogunowska. I apologize if I'm saying that wrong. This was a young woman who recently tried to appeal a sentence in the UK and that largely failed. And she was convicted of the killing of a young man named Philip Jaskowitz. And there's kind of like two versions of this story.

[Anya Cain]

There's.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

There's one where Oga Noska stabs him to death and is convicted of murder. And then there's another. What's kind of been the narrative out there recently is that she essentially was.

[Anya Cain]

Defending herself from being sexually assaulted and stabbed him.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, and it's really gotten a lot of people outraged, saying that, like, you know, men who attack women in the UK get less of a sentence than.

[Anya Cain]

This woman who was defending herself from, from an attack.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, and so it's like, it's one of those things where it's like, whoa, like what's going on here? So I tried to read up on it and, and some things about Martina Oganowska that I think are important to note. You know, there, there's been talk in these media reports on the, the case that she may have some low level.

[Anya Cain]

Intellectual disability or intellectual challenges. She had a history of being bullied.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

She was, I believe, only 18 when this event occurred in 2018.

[Anya Cain]

So very young.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

She'd recently given birth to her child and had issues postpartum.

[Anya Cain]

And when she was only 14, she.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Was raped by an older man. So she had very severe post traumatic stress disorder as a consequence of that, that attack. So all that's important to note. So this is, this is something that starts October 20, 2018. Ogunowska and Jaskowitz, who was romantically interested in her, met up at her home in Peterborough and they went out to a bar with two friends of Oganowska's and her mother. Her mother leaves and goes home. And then a group of four, including those friends Jaskiewicz and Oga Nazka, walk to his car. Jaskowitz drives. And they had all been drinking. So this is drunk driving. They're all, they're all, you know, intoxicated. Jaskowitz is speeding around and then parks the car on Oakdale Avenue. He and Jaska with, he and Oganoska.

[Anya Cain]

Get out of the car and they have an argument.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this is how this has been described. Some describe him as kind of following her, grabbing her neck, pushing her down, possibly forcing to her, her to her knees. And basically that, that's been described as an assault. You know, this, these kind of this.

[Anya Cain]

Drunken argument leading to him grabbing her, forcing her down.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I, I feel like that's fair. I feel like that that is an.

[Anya Cain]

Assault that could, that could injure somebody.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You know, grabbing someone by the neck, forcing them to their knees. That's. I don't think that's nothing. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I agree with that completely.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Yeah. And.

[Anya Cain]

My understanding from these media reports.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Is that the friends intervened, he apologizes, they both return to the car and they get in the car. And what, what Oganosuka says is that.

[Anya Cain]

After they all get back in the.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Car, he once again tries to touch her breasts, touch her sexually. And basically that she says that he.

[Anya Cain]

Grabbed her breasts and said they were his.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And then prior to this.

[Anya Cain]

One of.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

The friends had handed her a knife. So like her friend basically gave her.

[Anya Cain]

Knife and said, maybe you'll need it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And Okonowska slipped that into her sleeve.

[Anya Cain]

And she said that in response to.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Him touching her breasts, she basically punched him a few times and on the last punch forgot that she was holding the knife and that kind of slipped into her fist and she stabbed him.

[Anya Cain]

In the heart and he died.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So yeah, you know, there, there, you know, this was testimony that he was.

[Anya Cain]

Aggressive and there was this struggle in.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

The front seat and she forgot about the knife and, and basically killed him. So like, you know, one big problem with this obviously is on the one hand you do have him touching her breasts, you know, kind of the sexual assault and like to, to that point that, that's, that's important. To the other point, you know, she.

[Anya Cain]

Chose not to leave this situation, obviously. And that complicates a self defense argument.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And so the way this has kind of been portrayed I think oversimplifies what is a disturbing but ultimately complicated situation. I'm not even really taking a side in how it's been portrayed. Like the Garden article basically portrays it as she stabs him during a sexual assault as self defense. And the jury heard that argument and seemed to find it lacking. And I can see why. But at the same time I can see where her, her advocates are coming from because he was obviously doing things he shouldn't have been doing to her.

[Anya Cain]

He assaulted her, in my opinion.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And she is coming from a place of having been a rape survivor, having been a sexual assault survivor previously.

[Anya Cain]

She's traumatized and intoxicated.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So do I think she's some cold blooded killer who is like totally doing this for no reason? No, like obviously not.

[Anya Cain]

I think there's mitigating factors here.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And you know, I, she got a pretty harsh sentence and I think they, you know, I, I can understand why people are advocating for her. At the same time, is this a complicated, crummy situation where, you know, like you, you, like somebody died and somebody's.

[Anya Cain]

Life has been ruined.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So it's just like there's no really.

[Anya Cain]

Good or easy answers here.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So I, it's just troubling. What do you think?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah, it's often the case that things are never quite as simple as they appear to be in popular media accounts. This seems to be a terrible situation. Obviously this young man acting in this way is inexcusable and he put himself in a situation where he was choosing to act in this aggressive way towards a young lady who clearly was not interested in that sort of behavior. But yeah, there's.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think him touching her breasts.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

In, in the car to that extent is enough for like a self defense argument? That's where it kind of comes down to like obviously her getting back in the car. But then you could say, well, if things escalate again, then maybe she's defending herself. Like I, I kind of see that argument. But to me it's also like, I don't know, but way it was portrayed in the Guardian made it sound like he, it almost like he grabbed her and was just, you know, like about to set, like rape her almost and like she was defending herself from that. Whereas in this they're in a car with a group, it's a little bit more messy.

[Anya Cain]

Drunken situation.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Does not excuse his behavior at all. I don't know if they just had.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

That earlier interaction that you described with him pushing her down.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So you think that, that you can, you can buy the self defense argument more because of that context?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah, I think you have to look at it in the larger context. And there's certainly things, we can all imagine situations where if a person does this, in this context, oh, this might be annoying but harmless. But in another context it might seem very harmful and threatening.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I, yeah, I don't think what he did was harmless. I think it was harmful. I don't know that I can see where the jury was like, I don't know if it like warranted lethal force.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

It doesn't sound like he necessarily did something horrible enough to immediately lose his life over it. I don't think anyone is arguing that. And also, it doesn't seem like real justice necessarily is being served by having this woman be sent away and incarcerated for such a long time. That makes me very, very uncomfortable.

[Anya Cain]

I think she should have received a significantly more lenient sentence and perhaps something.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

That would be more rehabilitative than just lock her up and throw away the key. I think this woman was acting out of trauma and I think if, if he had survived, I would say this.

[Anya Cain]

Guy should go to jail.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You know, I mean, for what he did to her, like, it's not acceptable. But at the same time, it does get complicated when somebody dies, obviously. And you know, and it also, also, I mean, like alcohol is involved. I'm not.

[Anya Cain]

That doesn't excuse anything.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Everyone's drunk in the situation. It doesn't excuse anything. It does kind of explain it. Her previous history explains some of this.

[Anya Cain]

I'm uncomfortable with the sentence.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It's very sad that somebody lost their lives, but I'm not I I don't. Again, like I don't think it's a clean cut self defense argument, but I also think that despite that given her circumstances, some lenience could have been shown.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

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[Anya Cain]

Case is in Indiana.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This is. We did a previous cheat sheet with.

[Anya Cain]

The Hendricks county case. This is another Hendricks county case. Very disturbing one.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

My sources for this were documents accessed through my case as well as Fox59's report. Very thorough report from Fox59 on this case. So this is Hendricks county daycare employee Gabriel Garner has been charged hit with 43 felony counts of child molestation, child.

[Anya Cain]

Exploitation and possession of child sexual abuse materials.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This occurred in Brownsburg, which again, it's a place in Hendricks county which is.

[Anya Cain]

To the west of Indianapolis.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This is horrible. This guy worked at Main Street University for kids and that is a daycare that is now shut down very appropriately after what what was revealed about what was going on there here. I mean this is like I really hope that prosecutors in this case, I mean because again, he's innocent until proven guilty, obviously. Like granted, granted. But given the amount of CCM on his phone, I hope that if there is this goes to trial and there is a conviction. I sincerely hope the Hendricks County Prosecutor's Office takes a page out of the Miami County Prosecutor's Office and what they did with Kagan Klein, which was essentially stack the charges in such a way.

[Anya Cain]

That he received a very long sentence.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I don't believe people like this should be out there amongst us. I think it poses a danger to kids more so than ever because of the Internet and because of social media.

[Anya Cain]

A pedophile no longer needs to insinuate.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Himself or herself into the life of a child. They don't need to get a job as a teacher. They don't need to get a job within a. Within a religious, you know, a religious job like a priest or a pastor or whatnot. They don't need to befriend a family. They just need to get online.

[Anya Cain]

That's scary.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I don't think people like this should be out there because of the damage it causes to kids. But anyways, so this I read the probable cause affidavit. This is from a Detective sergeant with.

[Anya Cain]

The Brown Police, Brownsburg Police Department in Hendricks County.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It's Tim Wells. One thing I was interested in is I never really seen this before. I feel like, and not, not to.

[Anya Cain]

An unprofessional degree by any means, that.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This is not a criticism. But I feel like there were a couple times where this Detective Sergeant Wells.

[Anya Cain]

Personality seeps through in the PCA a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Little bit to the point where like you can kind of feel some of.

[Anya Cain]

The anger directed at this guy.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Maybe anger or, or disgust maybe a better word. So that was kind of interesting. So this is how it. I'll just read parts of the PCA and then we can discuss it. How does that sound?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Sounds perfect.

[Anya Cain]

On April.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this is the PCA. On April 2, 2025, a teacher at.

[Anya Cain]

Main Street University, 4 kids hereinafter referred.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

To as the initially reporting teacher reported.

[Anya Cain]

Three incidents to the DCS report line.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

For child abuse and neglect. The report read that an employee identified as Gabriel Garner, Asian male, DO DOB 2003 had inappropriately touched a 5 year old female in his care. As an employee at Main Street University for Kids.

[Anya Cain]

There was also report of Garner asking.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Another five year old female to kiss him and also an inappropriate text message.

[Anya Cain]

To the initially reporting teacher about her.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Three year old daughter having a foot fetish.

[Anya Cain]

Through my investigation I discovered three incidents which were reported to the Main street.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Staff including owner Nancy Minton and Jennifer Lingbeck, the director.

[Anya Cain]

In the first incident, Garner asked a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Five year old girl to kiss him before a nap during the day. This occurred in April of 2024 and.

[Anya Cain]

With no report made to the State.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of of Indiana Department of Child Services reporting hotline.

[Anya Cain]

In the second incident in November of 2024, victim 6, 5 years of age.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Disclosed to her parents that Gabriel Garner.

[Anya Cain]

Asked victim six to touch his quote.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

We, we Garner is also known as Mr.

[Anya Cain]

Gay by the children he is in.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Charge of initially reporting teacher disclosed that.

[Anya Cain]

She later learned that the school, when.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Notified of this incident, did not speak.

[Anya Cain]

To Garner about the allegations. Again, there was no report made to law enforcement or to the state of Indiana for mandatory reporting to the DCS hotline. Concerning the third incident.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

On February 20, 2025, Gabriel sent a.

[Anya Cain]

Text to the initially reporting teacher from his phone number that her 3 year.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Old daughter was touching Gabriel's sock and he asked her if her daughter had a foot fetish. Again, no DCS report was called in.

[Anya Cain]

By the Main street staff and the initially reporting teacher called it in after realizing they were never reported. This text by itself may not seem.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Relevant, however, given the totality of the other incidents reported to the Main Street University for kids regarding Gabriel Garner is extremely relevant to this case. End quote. Let's talk about this for a minute. So this is a situation where there are number, a number of concerning and red flag incidents happening at this specific business and it is not getting reported to the authorities as it should be. What do you think about that?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Obviously that, that's very, very disturbing. It's very upsetting.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

There can be situations where a predator.

[Anya Cain]

Insinuates himself or herself into an institution and no one is aware of what they're doing until it all comes spilling out.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

That can happen and obviously that's concerning and should raise questions about the institution or if other there's other situations going on there. But I think we can all understand.

[Anya Cain]

That to a certain extent.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But when you have a situation where.

[Anya Cain]

There are repeated instances of like hey.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This needs to be looked into and nothing is happening as it should, that's extremely concerning and we're going to see that very much is the case in this, at least as portrayed in this pca. Because what we learned through these PCA is that victim six, when she, when.

[Anya Cain]

This little girl told her parents about.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This incident, the mother became extremely concerned and spoke to Nancy, Nancy Minton and Jennifer Lingbeck, the, you know, the owner and the general director and her mother and father basically were talked out of.

[Anya Cain]

Going to the police or dcs.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

They went to these women out of concern and they basically the mother was shown all this surveillance footage and cameras and was told, oh, see, this didn't happen like she said it did or that instead of doing, doing the Right thing, which would be to call DCS.

[Anya Cain]

And let them do the investigation.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Let.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I mean, like, you know, we know from things like the McMartin preschool allegations there can be instances where people get wrongfully accused. That happens. We have to acknowledge that. But let the authorities do the investigation. You know, that would be the. That would be the appropriate thing to do. Do an external investigation and come back with the findings. Is that right?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

That's absolutely correct.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But in this case, you know, the staff is very adamant.

[Anya Cain]

They, they, they show one instance of.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Victim 6 and garner dancing around holding hands, and they say, oh, maybe this is what she's talking about, because his hands are on the front of his.

[Anya Cain]

Pants along the side at one point.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So maybe she just got confused.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I think a lot of times people have a natural and understandable impulse to believe that the people in their lives are not horrible. And if there's somebody you work with who might get accused of something, maybe it comes from a kid or maybe there's a little bit of a gray area. You don't want to allow yourself to immediately assume the worst. And you don't want to be the person who says, oh, I'm going to report everybody for everything. You don't want to be that person. But sometimes you need to be that person. And you need to recognize that sometimes the people in your life can be doing some of these terrible things.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And if there's an allegation and you.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Are running a daycare, the thing to do is to report it to the authorities. And yeah, that could be really bad for business. And yeah, that could be. Cause all sorts of problems, but that's the right thing to do, and it protects children, and that's why that's the rule. So you don't, you don't get defensive. You just let the authorities deal with it. And if it's nothing, then it's nothing. And you did the right thing.

[Anya Cain]

And if it's something, then you still.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Did the right thing.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Yeah, then you definitely do the right thing because you're protecting other children.

[Anya Cain]

So this is, this is important.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I want parents to listen to how this, how they were talked to. I think this mo. I feel horrible for this mother and father. I feel absolutely horrible.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure they're beating themselves up. There's no reason to shame them for being talked out of talking to police.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I think we're going to hear how that happened, and I think, you know, maybe this will help us understand. So if you're ever faced in a situation where this is happening, it doesn't happen to you. Quote, I asked her if she could explain how they convinced her of that.

[Anya Cain]

That and how Victim 6 mother explained that Ms. Nancy would show Victim 6's.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Mother something on the video and ask.

[Anya Cain]

Victim 6's mother a question, telling Victim.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

6'S mother, See how that is not possible. Ms. Nancy would say, see how he is alone in the classroom for five.

[Anya Cain]

Minutes, but then this teacher comes in. Victim six's mother would say that she would see that, but Ms. Nancy would.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Follow up telling her, see how that's not possible to have done anything to.

[Anya Cain]

A child in that time.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Again, the staff at Main Street University for kids never called DCS or Ellie to report the allegations. When Victim 6's mother spoke to DCS, where Victim 6 was checked on by DCS, I asked about any behavior changes.

[Anya Cain]

And she said they have recently met with therapists for Victim 6.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Victim 6's mother explained that Victim 6.

[Anya Cain]

Has issues with sleeping and wears a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Pull up, end quote. So this is a situation where basically they use this video footage, by the way, it turns out that there was a blind spot in the camera, can't see everything in the classroom. And it also turns out that some.

[Anya Cain]

Of these abuses were allegedly occurring while.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Other teachers were in the room. So basically they used that and kind of this like gaslighting, frankly. And listen, I, I don't know. These women who run this daycare, you know, I, maybe they just thought they were defending an innocent man, but the.

[Anya Cain]

Fact of the matter is they were.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Supposed to report this to DCS regardless. Regardless. And let them sort it out.

[Anya Cain]

Let them do what they need to do and deal with it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, and you know, these people made it clear to the mother that they did not want DCS contacted. So Detective Sergeant, Detective Sergeant Wells meets.

[Anya Cain]

With the initially reporting teacher, who is.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

A hero here, by the way. I mean, she, she made all of.

[Anya Cain]

This happen with her whistleblowing. She's a whistleblower. She had worked at this place since 2022.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

She knew this guy, Gabriel Garner, since starting there. They taught in the same class on and off. And she was questioning why are.

[Anya Cain]

Why am I hearing about some of these incidents and nothing's being reported?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And then she gets that creepy text where she's like, heck no. Like, why are you Talking about my 3 year old having a sexual fetish and, and does what she needs to do. So this, this woman had the interests of children in mind and had that.

[Anya Cain]

Protective instinct that you need to in these situations.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So kudos to her. And then it came Time for Detective.

[Anya Cain]

Wells to interview Gabriel Garner himself. That occurred on May 2, 2025.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And it turned out that Garner was a guy who first started working there during an internship from Brownsburg High School. He was at the time of this.

[Anya Cain]

All going down, he was a delivery.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Driver as a subcontractor for Amazon and he was kind of part time at this daycare thing. He was a teacher or teaching assistant and he worked with 4 to 5 year old pre kindergarten kids. And he said that it was a total mess when he started working there. There wasn't a lot of training.

[Anya Cain]

The director was in the process of.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Quitting and no one was ever properly trained. And there was like maybe at that point some online certification, but there was no real trainings on mandatory reporting around physical, sexual and neglect abuse. Yeah, he basically was kind of like trashing the employer, which is ironic but.

[Anya Cain]

Seemingly true in the situation if they.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Didn'T have any trainings on that. This is, this is where Wells then.

[Anya Cain]

Asked him about the touching incident.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And this is how Wells described him. You know, because Garner was aware that they wanted to inter. Police wanted to interview him about something.

[Anya Cain]

But he wasn't really sure.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So quote, Garner's demeanor while speaking to me was off.

[Anya Cain]

He was cotton mouthed, his lips appeared.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

To be dry, extremely nervous and was laughing, end quote. So this is a situation where obviously.

[Anya Cain]

Anyone would be nervous to talk to the police.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

That's not necessarily the biggest deal in the world. I just thought some of Wells's inclusion of stuff like this kind of really like spoke to like what he was observing. He constantly is pointing out where Garner is laughing, where it's inappropriate. And again, like we've said this, body language is not everything. But I can understand why that would.

[Anya Cain]

Be concerning in the moment.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yes, I do too.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

We don't have to base all of our conclusions on body language, but it.

[Anya Cain]

Can be part of our observation. It can be part of the soup.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of, of, of observations that you're making. It's just we can also assume that.

[Anya Cain]

Somebody would be nervous regardless.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So he's asking, he, he basically this.

[Anya Cain]

Guy starts by denying everything. But through this interview, which seemed to.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Be very effective, at least from what you read here, he starts admitting, oh well, she did touch me over the.

[Anya Cain]

Pants and blah, blah, blah.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He's smiling.

[Anya Cain]

Quote, Garner began smiling when telling me no.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, and so he's asking, you know, was he, you know, erect when, when that happened, he's saying no.

[Anya Cain]

He said it happened only one time.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He says he has no girlfriends and, and acknowledged that he did Feel guilt. I asked G, quote, I asked Garner if he watches pornography and he responded every once in a while.

[Anya Cain]

Garner told me that he talks to girls too.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He followed up saying his age. Of course, throughout my conversation with Gabriel Garner, he would laugh even when being specific about his actions with children. And I asked if he ever thought.

[Anya Cain]

About it and he said no, not until he got that call from the daycare center.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Again, Garner seemed to enjoy recalling the events. End quote.

[Anya Cain]

Then Wells hits him up with a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Search warrant for his cell phone and quote, he put his head down on the table and looked away from me.

[Anya Cain]

I asked if there was child porn on the device and he said no.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Garner was shaking his head in disgust.

[Anya Cain]

And said quietly, there were pictures of the children from daycare.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked Garner if the children were clothed.

[Anya Cain]

He said yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked what the children were doing.

[Anya Cain]

He said just there.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And he just sat there shaking. He then then said the pictures were.

[Anya Cain]

Of children turned around.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked if it was of the.

[Anya Cain]

Kids butts and Garner said yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked him how many and asked if it was quite a few. Garner responded maybe. I asked if the pictures were of.

[Anya Cain]

Girls and boys and he said no. He acknowledged only girls.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked if there were several pictures of the children's butts and he said yes. I asked if Garner if he was.

[Anya Cain]

Attracted to young girls. He laughed and said no.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked if he liked to look at young girls and again he laughed at me and said that he doesn't actively look at young girls. Garner just looked at me laughing. I asked Garner if he was too far into it. Garner said yes, and working with kids was never something he wanted to do.

[Anya Cain]

In the first place.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I responded to Garner, but you have.

[Anya Cain]

Been sexually attracted to kids before. Garner said that he was.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I told Garner that he needed help.

[Anya Cain]

And he laughed at me. I asked if he needed help and he was smiling.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I asked if you wanted help and Garner responded, of course I don't. Then he said no. So getting really weird mixed signals from this guy, obviously. So they served the warrant on his phone and the images were associated with GPS coordinates for this Main Street University for Kids. I'm not going to get into the.

[Anya Cain]

Details of what was on here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's for the best.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It's really, really bad. I'm just gonna say that it's really bad. It's really bad.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah, that's enough to know I'm looking at the pca.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So yeah, it's horrible. And I mean it's damning. And let me just be clear, it's prolific. This is not like one or two images, 130 images connected to that address using GPS. I can't even imagine what the families of little girls who were quote unquote cared for at this institution are going through right now. This is horrifying. And there were several identifiable victims here of what he was doing. God. People like this do not belong outside. I do not. I do not care. Like if people are doing this, they should be locked up forever. If people are doing this to kids, they don't belong.

[Anya Cain]

They.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You forfeited your right in my opinion to be out here and doing stuff. If you are. And you know what? Like I if that. If it's just a compulsion and attraction for kids and you're acting upon it. Yeah, that's. I, I hope he, I hope this, if he is convicted and this all proves out in court and he is found guilty, I hope he gets an extensive sentence.

[Anya Cain]

No. No child should have to go through this.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

No, absolutely not.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Disgusting. Anyways, let's go to our neighboring state, Ohio. And Kevin, I know you're going to be upset about this one, but it include it has some allegations about some lawyers behaving very horribly.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

So naturally we should treat those allegations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With a lot of doubt.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

No, because lawyers are the kind of like the uncrowned royalty of this great nation.

[Anya Cain]

You always say that lawyers are princes among men. Princes and princesses.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I think all the lawyers listening are nodding. No, I'm just kidding.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I mean it's true. Haven't you met very many fine lawyers who you now revere?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Just you. My source for this was a statement from the Koga.

[Anya Cain]

Am I saying that right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Koga.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Koga county prosecutor's.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Is that Cleveland office.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

That is Cleveland.

[Anya Cain]

This is a Cleveland case.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And so basically what happened recently and I remember you and I watched some true crime like docu series program on this case and I was like, whoa, this is wild. And then there's been an update. So the Cuyahoga county prosecutor, Michael C. O' Malley announced recently that a grand jury returned an indictment charging 51 year old divorce attorney Gregory Moore in the 2013 homicide of Eliza Sherman, who.

[Anya Cain]

Which occurred in downtown Cleveland.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So the incident occurred March 24, 2023. She arrived for a meeting with her. You know, Eliza was in the process.

[Anya Cain]

Of getting a divorce from her husband.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

She goes to meet with her divorce attorney Gregory Moore at 55 Erie View.

[Anya Cain]

Plaza in downtown Cleveland. And he was there at the Stafford.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Law Company office building. And while she was waiting outside, she was stabbed to death. Stabbed multiple times. And a You know, she was discovered, she managed to call police after the attack. A good Samaritan also called the police.

[Anya Cain]

But she died at the hospital.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Very tragic.

[Anya Cain]

And ever since then, this has been.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Investigated by the Ohio Attorney General's Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the Cleveland Division of Police, the Cleveland office of the FBI, and the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department.

[Anya Cain]

And on May 2, 2025, the US Marshals arrested Moore.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And in Austin, Texas, at 3:30pm, this is what prosecutor O' Malley had to.

[Anya Cain]

Say in the statement.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Quote, the Sherman family has waited over.

[Anya Cain]

A decade for answers regarding their mother's homicide. Through the tenacious work of multiple law.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Enforcement agencies, evidence was accumulated that paints the unmistakable picture that Gregory Moore orchestrated.

[Anya Cain]

And participated in the brutal murder of eliza Sherman.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And BCI's agents apparently got this request to lead it in June of 2021. It's kind of was considered a cold case. Said they spent thousands of hours digging into it.

[Anya Cain]

According to Ohio Attorney General David Yost.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Quote, bci is grateful for the family's.

[Anya Cain]

Trust, patience and confidence in our investigation that led to today's indictment and arrest.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this is what Moore was indicted with on May 2. So one count of aggravated murder, one count of conspiracy, six counts of murder, murder A and B, which is, I guess, different charges in Ohio, and two counts of kidnapping. People sometimes think of kidnapping is like.

[Anya Cain]

Someone'S gonna grab me and take me.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Far away and, like, lock you up somewhere. But it's actually usually statutorily, like, if.

[Anya Cain]

I force somebody to go across the.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Street, that's a kidnapping, right?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah. In the Delphi case, and I use that example because I. I think all of us are aware of that case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When Richard Allen forced the girls to go down the hill against their will.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

He was kidnapping them.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So what I'm going to do is.

[Anya Cain]

Read from the indictment.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It's got some really interesting details, because you're wondering, like, in a divorce, you.

[Anya Cain]

Expect a spouse to kill a spouse.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Like that would be the. Or a spouse to, you know, kill his family or her family or something.

[Anya Cain]

You don't expect the divorce attorney to do it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Right, Right. This guy sounds like he was doing some really sketchy stuff.

[Anya Cain]

Allegedly.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

So, you know, a lot of attorneys have horror stories about bad clients. So it's not. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad client.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

No, it's a bad attorney. This guy apparently had a history. What's been alleged is he had a.

[Anya Cain]

History of trying to delay cases.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And this seems to be in. What the state is alleging is that.

[Anya Cain]

This is an extreme example of that.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Now, whether they'll be able to prove it in court in front of a.

[Anya Cain]

Jury is another matter.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But that's what they're alleging.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

That's not an uncommon complaint against attorneys, unfortunately, because often it's very easy to make money by taking on a bunch of cases and then it's difficult to actually handle the cases in court. So often attorneys will take on a bunch of cases and delay them as long as possible.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Absolutely. Like, and what this is, you know, so he actually is no longer an attorney. He resigned from the bar in 2018 because he was being disciplined for basically calling in a courthouse bomb threat, like, multiple times whenever his clients were scheduled for trial and, you know, providing false.

[Anya Cain]

Information to police around the murder.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So, like, I. We don't know what the motive here was, but you're saying that there's sometimes a. For unethical, bad attorneys. There can be an incentive to delaying financially.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So he called.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Why are you laughing?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Called in bomb threats.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He called in bomb threats.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

That'd be like if you had like a test to take at school and you weren't ready for the test.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I think everyone who's been a kid in like high school has maybe, I mean, maybe I was just a messed up kid, has fantasized about doing that. I'm not ready for this math test. Oh, man, I wish something would come up, but you don't do it. And that's when you're a kid. When you're an adult, you deal with your problems or, I don't know, like, take the loss. Like, don't murder people.

[Anya Cain]

Geez.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I mean, this is.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this is.

[Anya Cain]

Let's talk about the indictment.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This is what it has to say about the allegations. Again, hasn't been proven in court yet, but the allegations against Gregory Moore, and it really focuses a lot on some cell phone devices and. And just sort of, you know, whatnot. So. Quote. The purpose of Eliza Sherman's kidnapping was.

[Anya Cain]

To obstruct Judge Rosemary Gina Gold from conducting the trial in the divorce case of Sanford Sherman vs Eliza Sherman during the week of Monday, March 25, 2013, a date that had been set by.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Judge Gold in December of 2012. This goal was designed to be achieved.

[Anya Cain]

By causing Eliza Sherman to be unavailable to attend the proceedings due to serious physical harm and or death.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

The scheme to use telecommunication, the scheme.

[Anya Cain]

To use telecommunications devices and or services.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

To kidnap Eliza Sherman began honor about January 3, 2013, when Gregory Moore and.

[Anya Cain]

At least one other unnamed individual learned.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

That The Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office was.

[Anya Cain]

Investigating Moore's cell phone usage in 2020.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

In 2012 when bomb threats were called.

[Anya Cain]

Into courthouses where Moore was scheduled to be in trial. The bomb threats on January 18, 2012.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And May 30, 2012 July 10, 2012.

[Anya Cain]

Were part of a pattern of behavior.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Moore exhibited to delay court appearances he.

[Anya Cain]

Was scheduled to attend in the calendar year of 2012, a pattern that members.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of Stafford Law Company were aware of on January 3, 2013 and which continued from January 3 up into including March 24, 2023 2013. Within a day of when Moore and.

[Anya Cain]

Other said individuals learned of CCPO investigation.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Moore obtained a new cellular phone on.

[Anya Cain]

The Stafford Law Verizon business account and was given control of a 4G mobile broadband device mobile hotspot.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It was also on the Stafford Law Verizon business account by an individual with authority to make such changes to devices.

[Anya Cain]

On the firm's account.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This change to the mobile hotspot facilitated Moore's ability to perform perform the overt acts in furthering of the kidnapping of Eliza Sherman in a manner calculated to.

[Anya Cain]

Avoid detection by law enforcement.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

On Sunday, March 24, 2013, Gregory Moore performed the following substantial overt acts in furtherance of the scheme to kidnap Eliza Sherman 1. At approximately 2:31pm Moore texted Sherman to.

[Anya Cain]

Meet him at the Stan Safford law.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Office at 4:30pm and requested that Sherman.

[Anya Cain]

Let him know when she was leaving for the meeting. 2.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

At approximately 3:54pm Sherman texted Moore that.

[Anya Cain]

She was leaving for the meeting and.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Would be there by 4:30. Moore responded to that text with one that said take time closer to five. At 3:57pm Sherman texted that she left and asked Moore, I left.

[Anya Cain]

We'll wait.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Call me when you get there. These messages caused Eliza Sherman to drive from her home in Beechwood, Ohio to Erie View Plaza in downtown Cleveland and and wait outside the Stafford Law Office Building for Moore to arrive for a meeting that Moore never intended to have. 3 Unbeknownst to Sherman, Moore arrived at.

[Anya Cain]

The Stafford Law office and used his.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Electronics access to swipe the front door to the building. At approximately 3:51pm After Moore swiped his electronic access, he either did not enter.

[Anya Cain]

The building or entered the building and.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Then left prior to 4:07pm from at.

[Anya Cain]

Least 4:07pm until 7:30pm Moore was not inside the Stafford Law office building.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

At approximately 4:15pm Moore called Sherman but did not speak to her and did not call back again.

[Anya Cain]

At approximately 4:19pm Sherman texted Moore saying.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Sorry, couldn't get phone got here quicker than I thought. Let me know where you are here, I will wait in my car.

[Anya Cain]

No problem.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Moore did not communicate.

[Anya Cain]

5.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

From approximately 4:23 to 7:32pm, Moore disconnected.

[Anya Cain]

To cellular phone from the Verizon cellular network.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

The effect of this was to disable.

[Anya Cain]

The phone from making and receiving calls and to disable the phone from creating cell tower location evidence within Verizon's cellular phone records. Normally this would also disable the phone from sending and receiving text messages, but Moore was still able to send and receive text messages using his Verizon cell phone number as described in paragraph 66.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Between approximately 5:11pm and 5:22pm, Moore returned.

[Anya Cain]

Text message communications with Sherman despite his phone being disconnected from the Verizon cellular network.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This was likely done by Moore using other Stafford Law mobile hotspot that was given to him on January 4, 2013.

[Anya Cain]

In connection with at least one other telecommunications device equipped with a Verizon message.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Service that could send messages to and from Moore's Verizon cellular phone without his.

[Anya Cain]

Cellular phone being connected to the Verizon cellular network.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

7 At approximately 5:13pm, Sherman texted Moore saying will you be here soon? Standing outside building. If not we'll go back to my car. At approximately 5:14pm Sherman texted Moore saying.

[Anya Cain]

Will you be here soon? Kind of cold.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Moore responded to this message at approximately.

[Anya Cain]

5:15Pm saying been here.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This text was designed to cause Sherman to continue to wait outside 2:55 Erie.

[Anya Cain]

View believing that Moore was inside the Stafford Law office waiting to meet her.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

8 At approximately 5:16pm Sherman sent more attacks saying door is locked. I thought you would text me when you got here. Been in car 45 minutes, it's okay. How do I get in?

[Anya Cain]

At 5:22pm Sherman sent a text asking.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

More, if you are here, why don't you let me in? I guess I will go back to my car. Too cold. Text me when door is open. Thanks.

[Anya Cain]

During this time frame, an individual who's either Moore or an unknown co conspirator approached Sherman from East 12th street, circled.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Behind her, chased her from 55E Review to 75 Erie View and then stabbed her over 10 times before running eastbound on Hamilton Avenue through the East 12th.

[Anya Cain]

Street intersection towards East 17th Street.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This assault caused serious physical harm to.

[Anya Cain]

Eliza Sherman and eventually her death.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

9 After the assault on Sherman was.

[Anya Cain]

Complete and the assailant was out of view of surveillance cameras at Hamilton avenue and East 12th Street, Moore resumed texting.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Sherman while continuing to have his phone disconnected from the Verizon Cellular Network, Moore sent Sherman texts at approximately 5:41pm, 5:47pm.

[Anya Cain]

6:01Pm, 6:16pm, 6:25pm and 6:43pm wherein Moore.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Repeatedly asked Sherman where she was, whether she was going to meet him, and.

[Anya Cain]

For her to call him.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

These texts and requests for calls were.

[Anya Cain]

For the purpose of creating false evidence that Moore was unaware of Sherman's assault. At the time of these communications, Moore.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Was not inside Stafford Law Office, yet Moore knew that Sherman was not there.

[Anya Cain]

Moore's phone was still unable to receive calls, yet Moore knew that Sherman was not calling him. Moore knew these things because he knew Sherman was incapacitated by the assault. 10 at approximately 7:30pm Moore electronically entered the Stafford Law Building from Dock Entrance.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Which was in an area where he could be unobserved by law enforcement who.

[Anya Cain]

Were still conducting investigation of the crime.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Scene in front of 75e review. 11 at approximately 7:32pm Once inside the Stafford Law Office, Moore connected his cellular.

[Anya Cain]

Phone back onto the Verizon Cellular network.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And called Sherman's cell phone at approximately.

[Anya Cain]

7:32Pm, 7:33pm and 7:43pm These three calls.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Were part of a series of communications from Moore to Sherman between 7:32pm and approximately 9:05pm designed to continue to create the continue the creation of false evidence.

[Anya Cain]

That Moore was unaware.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

12 on the morning of Monday, March 25, 2013, Moore arrived at the Stafford Law Office approximately 8 8:23am at approximately 8:51am an employee of the Stafford Law.

[Anya Cain]

Contacted Verizon and attempted to cancel the.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Mobile hotspot from the Stafford Law Verizon business account. The mobile hotspot this employee attempted to.

[Anya Cain]

Cancel was the same one that was.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Put into Moore's control by an authorized individual on January 4, 2013. 13 Additionally, on Monday, March 25, 2013, an employee of Stafford Law deleted a.

[Anya Cain]

Voice message left by Eliza Sherman on the Stafford Law phone system from the call box outside the building on Sunday.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

March 24, 2013 without making it available to law enforcement. 14 On March 29, 2013, Moore filed.

[Anya Cain]

A notice of suggestion of death in Sherman v. Sherman divorce case.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

15 On April 2, 2013, the Sherman.

[Anya Cain]

V. Sherman divorce case was dismissed, thus.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Ending the case without a trial ever having occurred before Judge Gold.

[Anya Cain]

That same day, the same person who.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Was authorized to change the change to the mobile hotspot on January 4, 2013.

[Anya Cain]

Authorized Moore to switch it to a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Different, different cellular phone while still being.

[Anya Cain]

On the Stafford Law Verizon business account. Moore then transferred his Stafford Law cellular.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Phone number to a different cellular phone than the phone he was using on March 24, 2013. End quote.

[Anya Cain]

Wow, that's wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That is wild.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Who, what is the Stafford Law Office.

[Anya Cain]

And who is working there?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Like, I mean, this poor woman and her family. She trusted this guy to be her.

[Anya Cain]

Divorce attorney and now it's alleged that.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He betrayed her in the worst way possible, murdering her. So, yeah, and I don't know, I, maybe none of this will hold up in court, but if it does, who is working at the Stafford Law office.

[Anya Cain]

And what are they doing?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Why are people helping him do all this sketchy stuff about hotspots?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Those are some excellent questions that I imagine a lot of other people are very anxious to get answers to.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Yeah, I'll be really interested in following that case.

[Anya Cain]

If anyone's in Cleveland and knows anything.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

About this murdersheetmail.com, we protect our sources. But in the meantime, I'll just be following along with what's going on. It just bizarre, bizarre, bizarre. And I just again, my heart goes out to Eliza Sherman.

[Anya Cain]

She was a registered nurse at the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, she seems like a delightful.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Person and she didn't deserve to be chased down and stabbed in this, you know, cold day by the. It's just horrible.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

It's very disturbing.

[Unnamed Speaker 7]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get Premium Wireless for two. Just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Unnamed Speaker 8]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent.

[Anya Cain]

To $15 per month required Intro rate.

[Unnamed Speaker 8]

First three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] Mochi Health is here to help you start your weight loss journey with caring, personalized support. Meet one on one with board certified obesity doctors and registered dietitians who truly listen and understand your unique needs. Eligible patients can access affordable GLP1 medications delivered right to their door each month. No insurance, no problem. Mochi Health accepts FSA and HSA, making care accessible and affordable. And with 24. 7 customer service, you'll never feel alone on your path to better health. Get started with Mochi Health today. Take the free [e-mail] and use code AUDIO40 at checkout for $40 off your first month of membership. That's join mochi.com with promo code AUDIO40.

[Unnamed Speaker 5]

Optimize your nutrition this year with Factor America's 1 ready to eat meal service. Factor's Fresh Never Frozen meals are dietitian approved. Ready to eat in just two choose from 40 weekly options across eight dietary preferences like calorie smart, protein plus and keto. Eat smarter at FactorMeals.com listen50 and use code listen50 for 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. FactorMeals.com listen50 code listen50 Anyways.

[Anya Cain]

Last case, Missouri.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And this is thanks to the person who suggested this one. This is article from First Alert 4.

[Anya Cain]

And this is one of those ones that may sound, not sound that dramatic.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But it's like it kind of, I don't know. People were discussing it in our group and it made me think about some things. So this is the case of Brendan t. Yeager. He's 28 years old. He was arrested recently after and charged.

[Anya Cain]

With three counts of first degree harassment, a class E felony in Missouri.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And it was for actions he took.

[Anya Cain]

In Shaw park in Clayton, Missouri.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And he's currently in, or at least as of this recording, he was in.

[Anya Cain]

St. Louis Lewis County Jail.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So three women came forward to police saying that this man would chase after.

[Anya Cain]

Them in the park.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He would, he would run alongside them.

[Anya Cain]

He would run after them when they were just minding their own business and doing whatever in this park.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And he, he actually followed one of them all the way to her apartment building.

[Anya Cain]

Like, what do you make of that?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

First of all, that, that's very troubling. And yeah, that's. That that's harassment.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And too often I feel like women especially and men sometimes have to go through life and just be like harassed by people and it's not taken super.

[Anya Cain]

Seriously by law enforcement at times. Like in public.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Like, there's like, there's like all kinds of just harassment that can go down. And like, I'm almost surprised that the Clayton Police Department took this seriously, but.

[Anya Cain]

I'm very glad they did.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, and it's a situation where you never know where, like, what is this guy doing? Why is his goal seemingly to make.

[Anya Cain]

Women uncomfortable in public and, and to.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Make them in fear for their lives, frankly.

[Anya Cain]

In public.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah. This is the sort of behavior that frankly has the potential to escalate into something even worse. So I am also very glad they took it seriously.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I feel like we live in a society where like some, when stuff like.

[Anya Cain]

This is not taken seriously, it just.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Make, it makes people who are not doing anything wrong want to retreat from being out in public because Predators are after them and that's not acceptable. And when people are engaging in really antisocial behavior, that should be punished and that should be taken seriously.

[Anya Cain]

So I'm very glad to see that.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This guy was charged. If you were in a area, know.

[Anya Cain]

In this area of Missouri and you.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Got chased by a creepy blonde dude with like, blondish hair, call the police. Call the Clayton Police Department at their detective bureau at 314-29-084 14. So that's 314-290-8414. Because, you know, I, I again, why, why, why do, why do these women who are just going about, they're not.

[Anya Cain]

Bothering anyone, they're just there. They're existing, but they're women existing in public.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So this guy obviously a thing about it. And like people like him, again, I, that's unacceptable. There needs to be accountability.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Absolutely.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Anyways, that's Cheat Sheet for this week. And again, we recorded this on May 16, 2025. So if dramatic events have happened in the meantime, I apologize.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Another magnificent job by the always talented Anya Cain.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You're, you're sweet.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

So what have you been up to since the last Cheat Sheet recording yesterday?

[Anya Cain]

What do you mean?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Well, I'm just trying to make a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Little bit of pleasant talk.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

We live together. You know what I've been up to because we've been around each other the whole time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, you've been working very hard.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Well, it's, well, it's Friday now, so.

[Anya Cain]

I think we're gonna just have a weekend.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And you have your big quill pen sitting at your desk.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

My inkwell, yeah. Very good. And I'm, I'm excited. And one big thing we're doing is preparing for the launch of our book.

[Anya Cain]

Which is going to be in August.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of this year, Shadow of the Bridge. Pre order it if you can. We always appreciate that. And it's going to be an audiobook. That's confirmed. We don't know when that's going to be out there. And, you know, you want a hard copy so we can sign it for you.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yes. We've heard whispers, we've heard possibilities of who might be recording it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, mysterious.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Very mysterious.

[Anya Cain]

Very mysterious.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

But you know, you have to. The book's not out yet, so you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have to pre order and you have to be very patient.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

But I wonder if you wanted like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One of the T shirts.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Do you have to pre order and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Be patient for that as well?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

No, you can get it pretty quickly. Priority mail, baby. You know, you can get that and wear it proudly. It's A murder sheet ambassador. As an official murder sheet person, you.

[Anya Cain]

Can order [e-mail].

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

You'Re just right on it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I'm on it. I'm locked in.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I've just, again, I appreciate you also forgiving me the time because I've been working on the Temujin Kinzu episodes and you've been giving me lots of time to do that. And it's one of those things where.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought, oh, this is an interesting case.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

This would be a good episode. And then suddenly it's like four or.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Five episodes down the rabbit hole.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I think that surprised everyone, certainly me.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I think it's.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I've appreciated the work you've been doing on that.

[Anya Cain]

So happy to do it. But anyways, thanks everyone for listening.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

If there's ever anything you want us to cover, you know, murdersheetmail.com if you.

[Anya Cain]

Have any information, firsthand information on some.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of these cases, always happy to chat. Murdersheetmail.com and we protect our sources.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Is the Indy 500 this weekend?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I have no idea. I know it's. I know may is that. And all the checkered flags are out, which is cool, but I don't know the specifics. You and I went there once and it was very hot and the air tasted of beer, but it was. It seemed like people were having fun and that was nice. It's. I don't think it's really my scene, but it was. It's nice.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

It wasn't even a scene. Yeah, you couldn't dig it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I couldn't dig it, but I. I was glad other people could. It's nice to see people enjoying things. I didn't know the cars were moving so fast that you can like barely see them.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Yeah, we went to a section of it and there's like lots of people around. You could barely see the track. And when you do see the track.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You hear the cars.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

You hear the cars. You don't actually see the cars from where we were.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It was all. It was one of those things where I was like, this is very impressive in a way. It's not for me, but it's impressive and I respect it. I just. It's not. It's. I'm not.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

You just thought it was like a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As a.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

As a then new resident of Indiana, you felt like you had to go at least once.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, also, I'd never been to the rates itself.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

My parents, you know, years and years.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Ago, not this old thing again.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Took me to qualifications once and I remember them.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You were scarred for life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, no, not scarred.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

You saw something you shouldn't have.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Well, I don't know if I shouldn't have, but we were walking into the track and there's areas of the track where there's a lot of people partying. And my parents, to their chagrin and to my curiosity and delight, I saw a young man, and particularly a young woman enjoying themselves.

[Anya Cain]

Wink.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Yeah, the.

[Anya Cain]

In the 70s and I think even.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Into the 80s, the snake pit, the so called snake pit. Was that. Is that the. The third turn or one of the turns? I don't remember.

[Anya Cain]

I used to know this.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It was a. It was a real den of hedonism and kind of boomer excess. I would say people were just going nuts. Public sex fights, wrestling in the mud. And, you know, maybe people like that. Others may not like it so much, but that is no longer as much a party atmosphere as it once was. But you got to see it in its heyday, back in the.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Back in the day also, before you and I became a couple, we had a very awkward encounter, we did, where we met a man who used to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Spend a lot of time at the Snake Pit.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

He was very nice and he said.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Oh, do you want to see some pictures from those days? And we said, sure, of course, of course. Why wouldn't we want to see pictures? What could be the possible harm of us seeing pictures from those days?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then he comes and says, well.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I hope you don't mind nudity. And he slaps down this huge pile of pictures. And the top one is this huge picture of this naked woman. And I'd say 99.9% of these pictures are really emptied eyed, sad looking people, mostly women topless as guys. Eyes are like grinning and being happy in the background. And this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm with you.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And it was just very awkward.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It was very awkward. And again, we were not a couple at this point, so we were just like, all right, we just experienced something pretty weird together.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

You were just here for like a week and then you're like leaving the next day. So this is like my last full day with you. This is how we spend it.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

I understand why people found it like a fun and sexy thing back in the day, but like, I think it's something you had to be there because I agree with you a lot of those, those pictures just looked really grim. So I think it definitely was something you had to be there and you had to be in that right mindset.

[Anya Cain]

Because I think it just looks kind.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Of like a lot of drug use and People drinking a lot.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

I. I think I told you on that day, Anya, I never thought in my life I would ever be able to say I got tired of looking at bare breasts.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Yeah. It was like. It was like. It was so many.

[Anya Cain]

There were so many.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

There was so many. It kept going.

[Anya Cain]

And that gentleman was very nice to.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Show it to us, and I really appreciated him. We just weren't expecting it. We were not.

[Anya Cain]

We were not in that kind of hippie.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And we were doing that because of Burger Chef. The snake pit is related to Burger Chef. Let's go.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Everything's got a Burger Chef angle, so. Including the.

[Anya Cain]

The decadence of the snake pit.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But it was. It was. It was an experience. It was. One of those things was like, this is so weird, but also kind of funny, but also kind of disturbing.

[Anya Cain]

I remember thinking, like, what am I doing?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

What is this the first. What is happening?

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

The first of many times you've thought that during your relationship.

[Anya Cain]

Our residency with one another has led to some.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

We get into a lot of very.

[Anya Cain]

Unusual situations, I would say good and bad.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So that's fun.

[Anya Cain]

It keeps life interesting.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But sometimes it's.

[Anya Cain]

It's awful.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

This one wasn't one of the awful ones. There's other. There's been other ones where it's like, oh, my God, what happened?

[Anya Cain]

What is happening?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

But this one was more of just.

[Anya Cain]

Like, kind of funny in my head in retrospect.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Anyways, that's. That's our awkward, weird snake pit story. But. But yeah, everyone enjoying the 500 again, you'll be hearing this probably after it occurs, if you're accurate, and it's happening this weekend, but, I mean, is it.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Happening the weekend that this is being released?

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Oh, okay. In that case, have fun, have a.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

Good time, I guess before.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Make good choices.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

To this information. I have a device that I can look at that will tell me when the Indy 500 will be held.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Wow.

[Anya Cain]

There you go.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So we can actually be accurate.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And yeah, the Indy 500 is being held this weekend. This is being released on Friday, May 23rd. The Indy 500 is on Sunday, May 25th.

[Anya Cain]

Well, listen, guys, everyone who's there, be safe. Don't drink and drive and have a fun time.

[Unnamed Speaker 4]

And, you know, and my comments were.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Therefore apt and timely.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

And, you know, don't park appropriately. And I think a lot of people in Speedway will, like, actually let you.

[Anya Cain]

Pay them to let you park at the house.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

So, you know, take them up on that.

[Anya Cain]

That's a good situation. But be safe and have fun.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

It should be a fun time. That's my advice. My sage advice. Very, very deep. Anyways, let's get out of here. This is rambling on long enough. All right, thanks everyone for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murder sheet mail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

Bit of money for records requests, you.

[Anya Cain]

Can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[Unnamed Speaker 3]

We do try to check our email.

[Anya Cain]

Account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.