Anya Cain (3:19)

What the cause of action is, we don't know.

Kevin Greenlee (3:23)

No idea. Yeah, and I just want to say a couple of things about that.

Anya Cain (3:32)

Well, first of all, I just want to kind of add a couple of details. You might be wondering, how does a convicted murderer in prison have access to Facebook? And the answer is it's a little bit unclear. Paula Kenzu, who is Temujin Kenzu's wife and sort of mouthpiece, has claimed in the past that she runs his social media and has claimed in the past. And also reaching out to Michigan Department of Correction, they indicate that he would be precluded from running a page like this. So even though it's under his name, we don't know if it's a situation where there's being calls made and dictation is being done or she's just writing everything wholesale. So it's baffling, first of all. And second of all, if you go and look now, many of these comments have been removed seemingly.

Kevin Greenlee (4:19)

Right.

Anya Cain (4:20)

So we do want to thank everybody who helped handle the situation.

Kevin Greenlee (4:24)

I just want to say that I think it is extraordinarily important that we all come out against this sort of thing. And here is why. True crime cannot be a safe place if convicted murderers are allowed to harass people online. I think that's a very simple and basic point, very controversial. If you describe this man's behavior, Mr. Kinzu's behavior once again is disgusting and it really reveals who he is and what he is. And we've actually heard over the course of the day from a number of people who say they no longer feel comfortable discussing the case because they are scared by the fact that the Kinzus are in groups. And in these groups they respond and they attack and they do these terrible things. And I can understand that. But I just want to make the obvious point that this is what they want. They want people to be intimidated. They Want their attacks to scare people into silence. Because when the people who know the truth about this case have been scared into silence for decades, that's when the lies of Mr. Kinzu and his wife Paula have been allowed to flourish.

Anya Cain (5:43)

That's true. They. It's the classic bully situation. When a bully is allowed to do everything with impunity and keeps getting away with it, that bully is going to continue that behavior because it's working. The only way to get it to stop is to stand up to them.

Kevin Greenlee (6:00)

And I want to say Anya and I are fine.

Anya Cain (6:02)

I don't. We've been threatened by so many. What, like, what are you going to sue us over, dude? Like, I.

Kevin Greenlee (6:08)

Everything we reported was in court records and has been documented.

Anya Cain (6:12)

And we reached out to get his side of it in the beginning of all this.

Kevin Greenlee (6:15)

He always lies and says we're too cowardly to have him on. We reached out to him and his wife, Mrs. Kinzu, and gave them the opportunity to talk with us, which they declined. For whatever reasons, they did decline, that that was their choice. So basically, people lie about everything. Mr. Kinzu lies about everything. Going back to denying his guilt in the murder of Scott Macklem. And I said this in a comment on the group today, in our Facebook group, and I'll say it here at this point, after this man continues to lie about everything under the sun, after he and his wife continue to harass and dox everyone under the sun, including his own daughter, after the case against him has been documented by us on our program and in the original trial. I am at a total loss to understand why anyone would say, well, this is a guy I want to support. I want to support him in his cause going forward. I don't understand why anyone would feel this way. He is a monster.

Anya Cain (7:26)

Sunk cost fallacy, Kevin. That's why I just answered it for you. No, I mean, but in all honesty, I mean, this is totally unacceptable. I mean, his true colors. I mean, this is who he is. And, and when you say, like, you know, I mean, Paula, I don't believe posts anything online without, you know, it being like, this is. This is someone who is, you know, slavishly devoted to her husband. So I, I would say this is not a situation where, oh, man, Paula just lost it and he has no idea. He would have handled it better. This is exactly who he is. We read the letter.

Kevin Greenlee (7:58)

Let's talk about that letter very briefly. You all remember Anya read this awful, awful, bitter, hate filled letter that Mr. Kinzu wrote to his daughters in one of the in the gallery thread, Mr. Kenzie or whoever was posting under his name said, well, basically. Well, the thing about that letter, you have to remember is that, well, he was drunk when he wrote it. Since when is that an excuse? If someone commits an act of violence or if someone does something terrible, you don't get to go into court and say, well, I was drunk when I did it. Guess what? That's not an excuse. What you did still happened. It still counts.

Anya Cain (8:35)

Let me read to you a poem by Dana Craig called the Narcissist's Prayer. That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. So there you go.

Kevin Greenlee (8:54)

So I think, is there anything more we wanted to say before we get into our previously recorded.

Anya Cain (8:58)

I just want to make it clear to people that, like, we are always open to hearing the other side on this case and on whatever case that we're working on, because we like information and we're really curious and we like to talk to different people, even people we disagree with. So I just want to say that and note that in this situation, from the beginning, there has been a real palpable reluctance from Team Kenzie, whether it's Paula or their investigator, Herb Wellserv, to sort of give us any information or any sort of like, whatever. After we made it clear that we thought Kenzie was guilty, not that we were disrespectful or saying, oh, he, you know, he should rot in jail, just, hey, we're leaning towards guilt. What are your thoughts? And that's because they. They can't handle anybody having a disagreement with them. And it. It goes from as. As minor as not talking to you, but as major as. As people being attacked in this way in public. And I. I just want to add to that, that that's because, I mean, they have nothing to say. All they have is rage. All they have is rage.

Kevin Greenlee (10:08)

Nothing to say.

Anya Cain (10:08)

It's.

Kevin Greenlee (10:09)

Ask yourself, if they are trying to shut down conversation by threatening and intimidating people, why are they so scared of conversation? It is because they know. They know he is a guilty man.

Anya Cain (10:19)

They know what he is. They know what he is.

Kevin Greenlee (10:21)

They know he is a monster.

Anya Cain (10:23)

He is exactly where he belongs.

Kevin Greenlee (10:26)

He will die in prison.

Anya Cain (10:28)

I mean, he ought to. I mean, because it's not a safe situation if he doesn't. There are plenty of people in prison who did horrible things. Who I believe are fully going to be a safe person to be out in society because they've changed, they've grown up. He has demonstrated again and again that he's incapable of growing up.

Kevin Greenlee (10:46)

Yes. He is not one of those people. And I want to make clear that again, Anya and I are not intimidating, but we're not intimidated. We're also not intimidated.

Anya Cain (10:58)

That was a Freudian slip.

Kevin Greenlee (10:59)

We are not intimidated by this man. He is a joke. We're going to continue to cover him. I don't think we have any episodes scheduled for him next week.

Anya Cain (11:09)

It doesn't scare us. It's not ridiculous. I mean, this is laughable. If it wasn't such a horrible situation, but we weren't aware of so many people who he's really negatively impacted in life. It would be hilarious. It would be like a clown character in a stupid movie. I mean, like, that's what he is. He's this, you know, 60 something year old guy who thinks he's a cool ninja rock and roll guy. It's pathetic. It's pathetic.

Kevin Greenlee (11:35)

I mean, well, he also thinks he's a great religious leader, which is something we also will be talking about.

Anya Cain (11:40)

That's something beyond pathetic. I don't know what that is. He's like, yeah, he's like, he thinks he's like, you know, some bizarre center piece in his own self cobbled together religion.

Kevin Greenlee (11:51)

And there are people out there who are so determined to cut him every brick possible that they will also let him spread lies about the man he killed, Scott Macklem. And they say terrible things about Scott. They drag his name through the mud even though there is no evidence behind everything. There was no. I'm very angry here. Yes, they dragged his name through the mud even though there is no evidence supporting their crazy allegations. I think some of these things, it's long past time for them to stop. If we're serious about ethics and true crime, if we're serious about wanting true crime to be a safe place, we need to be consistent in all the cases. And if it's not okay to attack victims in one case, it's also not okay to attack them in this case. And let's have some general principles, one of which is convicted murderers should not be intimidating people online.

Anya Cain (12:47)

Yeah, I'll even, I'll even be. I mean, listen, if someone is in a group and they're advocating for someone's innocence or they're representing someone, if they're, if they're following the rules and everything's chill, then great. Wonderful. Everyone can be part of the discussion, just like you, you. But this, like, this shouldn't be allowed. People shouldn't be freaked out. Like, I don't want to say anything about this case because like, I don't want to be stalked by this guy's wife. That's a problem. We have a problem here. This isn't good. This is. And, and, and, and you know what? Like we're going to say something because this is just unacceptable.

Kevin Greenlee (13:17)

Yeah. And pardon my French, but it is long past time for this shit to stop. And it is not going to stop unless we as a community stand up and condem it stop. So let us do that. And now why don't we have like a little commercial break and come back with our previously recorded.

Anya Cain (13:32)

Because I think we're in like a really good mood when we actually recorded this.

Kevin Greenlee (13:35)

Yeah. So you need, you need a palate cleanser.

Anya Cain (13:38)

You're gonna have a whiplash. So you're joking about Bruce Springsteen or something like.

Kevin Greenlee (13:43)

Yes. But you're about to hear an ad for some wonderful products.

Anya Cain (13:48)

One of our wonderful sponsors, but yet.

Kevin Greenlee (13:51)

Thank you so much.

Anya Cain (13:51)

Oh, and I just want to give you a heads up. There's a breaking news in a case that we previously covered. So I'm going to jump back in at that point. So this is going to a very confusing cheat sheet. Buckle up. We're sorry. Goodbye. All the sunscreen in the world won't save you from getting burned by your wireless bill this summer.

Kevin Greenlee (14:11)

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Anya Cain (14:45)

I use Mint and you should too. It's awesome. See, we are constantly talking on our mobile phones for work. We need to be able to reach our sources wherever or whenever. In the past, we found there was nothing worse than being on a call with a source talking about a murder case, of all things, and then having it suddenly drop. That's frickin ominous. No one wants that. With Mint, we never have those issues. We know we're getting robust, comprehensive coverage for a great price this year.

Kevin Greenlee (15:12)

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Anya Cain (15:31)

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Kevin Greenlee (15:58)

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Anya Cain (16:14)

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Kevin Greenlee (16:24)

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Anya Cain (16:32)

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Kevin Greenlee (16:52)

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Anya Cain (17:03)

Visit SimpliSafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.commsheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Content warning this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder and abduction of a child. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to cover a range of cases. I think actually me, I. I did three instead of two. So we both picked one. In New York City, you're always kind.

Kevin Greenlee (17:40)

Of like an overachiever.

Anya Cain (17:42)

I think. I asked you if I was a type A personality the other day and you started laughing. So that was that. That told me what I needed to know.

Kevin Greenlee (17:50)

Yeah, you're very much a type A very much wanting to go above and beyond. Drive yourself crazy in the process.

Anya Cain (17:59)

I don't need to drive myself crazy. I'm already Crazy.

Kevin Greenlee (18:01)

So you took the cane train to insanity quite a while ago.

Anya Cain (18:06)

Insanity station or the insanity whistle stop. Well, what does that say about you if you're the conductor of the cane train?

Kevin Greenlee (18:14)

I'm just along for the ride. I don't know how I got on this train.

Anya Cain (18:17)

Get me off this crazy thing. What are we doing? Okay, so we're both going to New York City, and I have a case in Michigan. In Arkansas, I believe. You took a case in Nebraska.

Kevin Greenlee (18:31)

I did.

Anya Cain (18:32)

Is that the case of how they blew up the Chicken man in Philly last night? And they blew up his house, too.

Kevin Greenlee (18:38)

So Anya is making a reference, for some reason to a Bruce Springsteen album from 40 some years ago.

Anya Cain (18:47)

Why are you acting like Bruce Springsteen's irrelevant? You're listening to Bruce Springsteen constantly right now.

Kevin Greenlee (18:53)

It seems irrelevant.

Anya Cain (18:54)

Well, you're. Oh, it's 40 years ago. Well, it still speaks to me.

Kevin Greenlee (18:58)

I'm just giving the people context. Yeah, Nebraska is a great album.

Anya Cain (19:02)

The gambling commission's hanging on by the skin of its teeth.

Kevin Greenlee (19:06)

Yes, indeed they are.

Anya Cain (19:08)

I guess today we're going to see what them racket boys can do. Shall we? Go ahead.

Kevin Greenlee (19:13)

Let's go.

Anya Cain (19:14)

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (19:17)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (19:19)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (19:21)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

Anya Cain (19:29)

And this is the Cheat Sheet. Deals and Devil's Den Sam.

Kevin Greenlee (20:19)

Well, I apologize, because you threw me for a loop, because usually I'm the one that's, like, interjecting some random pop culture nonsense out of the blue and making you deal with it. So is that how it feels when we're talking about something serious and I suddenly say, oh, Anya Baywatch Nights. Is that how it feels? Is that how it feels?

Anya Cain (20:37)

That is how it feels.

Kevin Greenlee (20:38)

Well, I feel I need to apologize to you and to the listeners.

Anya Cain (20:41)

I should apologize to myself, because now I have Atlantic City playing on loop in my head. Also, I just want to note, you know, one thing I realized, speaking of pop culture nonsense, what I realized and what I showed you the other night. And this, I think, will give people some illumination on our marriage, on our relationship. You know, I was watching the Sabrina Carpenter Man Child video, right? Fun, fun song, fun music video. And there's a part where she's sitting in the car looking kind of vaguely annoyed, and there's a guy out in the street doing, like, this little hoedown dance. And I pointed that out To Kevin, I said, this is us. And you're probably thinking, Anya, you're saying you're this kind of annoyed Sabrina Carpenter person. No, no, no. We switch back and forth.

Kevin Greenlee (21:22)

That's right, sir.

Anya Cain (21:23)

One of us is always the Sabrina Carpenter person. And then one of us is doing a hoedown in the middle of the street after a car accident. So that's kind of. And you know what keeps things fun? I wouldn't have it any other way. So glad we started off with some fun about songs because this is gonna be a pretty heavy episode. I think pretty much all these cases are horrible and depressing sometimes.

Kevin Greenlee (21:46)

We always are.

Anya Cain (21:48)

Sometimes we pick a case at the end where it's like, ah. And then the police foiled this guy before he could kill anyone. And this one doesn't really have anything like that. So the first one we're gonna do is out of Arkansas. And my sources for this are primarily press releases from the Arkansas State Police as well as a release of 911 calls from KAT TV Channel 7. And it's. This is a very disturbing situation. So. Okay, so I want to note that we're recording this portion of this cheat sheet on Thursday, July 31. The rest of the cheat sheet was recorded on Wednesday, except for the beginning, which was also today. So we're.

Kevin Greenlee (22:35)

I'm getting a headache.

Anya Cain (22:36)

This is the Time Travelers podc. No one knows what's going on. We apologize. There was just a lot of that happened recently and we're trying to do our best. So I'm sorry, but it is. This is actually really good news that I'm super thrilled to share with you. So we decided to cover this Devil's Den case. And this was the horrific murder of two parents who were out on a hike with their kids in an Arkansas state park called Devil's Den and they were murdered. These two, you know, adults were murdered. The children were able to flee and get away and. And so this became, you know, understandably, quite a big news story. So yesterday, what broke out of the. My source for this is the Arkansas State Police press release. This. They talked about how there's been an arrest. So let's first go over the murder. That's just so. Clinton David Brink, a 43 year old man, and Kristen Amanda Brink, a 41 year old woman, husband and wife, they were attacked while hiking. Their daughters, ages 7 and 9, escaped and were able to get out of there. But unfortunately these folks were not. And I think we'll include some of our previously recorded thing about this because we go into like the 911 call and stuff and you know, you can hear about that. But they arrested the creep, or at least they arrested a creep who confessed. I guess it's a little early.

Kevin Greenlee (24:14)

So an alleged creep.

Anya Cain (24:16)

An alleged creep. I mean this is a situation where you do get false confessions, but also this is so early that it's hard to believe that anyone would be able to get a lot of details correct about a case like this because none of them are out there. It's just happened. This occurred on Saturday, July 26, 2025, by the way. So this is a really bizarre twist. On July 30, 2025, at a business, apparently some sort of hair salon in springdale, Arkansas, a 28 year old man named Andrew James McGann was taken into custody by agents with the ASP. So this guy is apparently a teacher. And what's even more shocking is he apparently has confessed to the murders. So this is from the Associated Press. He admitted he fatally stabbed a couple. He didn't know them, he just did it. So his mugshot, not that you should judge anyone by how they look, but is a pretty creepy looking dude. So I don't know what, what happened here, if this was some sort of rage incident or some sort of whatnot. Like I really hesitate to. People often are like, oh, he must have been mentally ill. You know, a lot of people are mentally ill, never hurt anybody or they do self harm. Right. So I mean, we can't really ascribe mental illness to something like that. But no, yeah, I don't, I don't feel like that's fair to people with a mental illness. I mean, I could understand certain situations, maybe mental illness is mostly to blame, but we don't need to assume that.

Kevin Greenlee (25:55)

One thing that's very easy to say but is very hard to do is to wait. And in a situation like this, so many of the facts have yet to come out, including the actual confessions and whatever other evidence they may have against him. And so it is just important to wait. The story will come out in one forum sooner or later.

Anya Cain (26:19)

He previously, I think he came from Oklahoma, previously worked in some different schools. There have been rumors concerning his work in those schools or perhaps sudden resignations going around. So we don't have any of that confirmed. We, I, I don't know. I don't. There, there may be something to that. There may be nothing to that. So it's just hard to know. But he's obviously a young guy. He would be at the start of his career and apparently has no criminal record, and they apparently found his DNA at the scene as well. So, you know, quick work by the asp. Honestly, when I saw this thing, and it was like a trail and people going out and doing normal things on a nice day in a group and then being accosted and there being kind of reports that people were running into this really creepy guy who was glaring at them on the trail and didn't seem quite. What? Right. And seemed more bundled up than he should be. I got, I got Delphi flashbacks like I was, I, I, it just was like, wow, that some. Sounds somewhat similar to that, just in the sense that, like, some creep decides to, you know, orphan two children for no reason. Just like the creep in Delphi took two kids and murdered them for no reason. But I'm glad in this situation that they were able to act pretty fast. If they have a confession, DNA, all this stuff pretty, pretty quickly, then that sounds like a pretty strong case against him. But obviously, we'll have to wait and see how this all goes. You know, if there's a trial, if there's a guilty plea, what happens. But my heart goes out to those two little girls. What a horrifying thing to happen. Yeah, I really hope they're able to, to heal as much as possible, but I mean, God, I mean, these people were just out for a walk. It's horrible. All right, well, that's the Devil's Den case. And now I guess we're back to the previously recorded. Yeah, I'll probably cut some stuff out, but I think we'll jump back in when we're talking about, like, the 911 calls so you can get more details. But just, just know that the Anya and Kevin that are about to start talking don't know anything about any of this that happened. So I. Apologies. Apologies for any confusion.

Kevin Greenlee (28:17)

I think people are used to Anya and Kevin not knowing what they're talking about.

Anya Cain (28:22)

We don't know what, so. Yeah. Well, thanks for your patience. We appreciate you. I listened to the 911 call. It Predominantly, from what I can tell, features back and forth between at least, at least port. Whatever they released. I don't know if this is like the first one, but it has a lot of communication between seemingly like first responders talking. At one point, you can talk about. You hear about them talking about how the kids are back at the visitor center. They say, quote, two children are there. They advise that their parents or were assaulted. One was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing. At points, you hear people on this kind of chat Are talking about how they are hearing yells and cries for help. One of them says, 10, 4. We're hearing them, too. Towards the end of the lower part of the Devil's Den trail. And then you hear one of the law enforcement. I believe. I believe it was a law enforcement officer say, quote, try to relay to the office. So we found the victims down here. They're on the lower Devil's Dens Devil's Den trail. It's very sad. He sounds very weary and exhausted and just says, quote, I've got two bodies down here. Um, there's, you know, I mean, this is a horrible situation. Obviously. These two daughters orphaned, their parents murdered by this guy, seemingly just for no reason. You know, it's like we can't have nice things anymore. We just, you know, everyone's got to stay inside and hide because you go out for a nice family activity like this and tragedy, leave your kids orphans because some psycho is out. So I hate that. Anyways, let's go to one of your cases.

Kevin Greenlee (30:01)

I thought that we were going to do uter first.

Anya Cain (30:05)

Sorry, my.

Kevin Greenlee (30:06)

My Atlantic City riff just threw everything off base and.

Anya Cain (30:12)

Off base. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (30:14)

Everything's just confused. You're doing, like, pop culture stuff. I'm sitting here trying to say, well, how can I work in a reference to Anya being born in the usa or how can I work in a reference to Anya and I going through the tunnel of love?

Anya Cain (30:27)

You're like the DA who can't get no relief. It's a good album. So, you know, everything that dies one day comes back. I don't know. Let's go.

Kevin Greenlee (30:45)

Should we have, like, we technically have a book club? Should we have an album club? And I'll listen to the Grass club?

Anya Cain (30:53)

No, we don't need that. We can. Everyone should listen to. You should listen to Nebraska. And there's a song on that based on the Stark Weather homicides. Right?

Kevin Greenlee (31:03)

Yeah.

Anya Cain (31:04)

So definitely listen to that. It's a very good album. I really like it. But. But we're not gonna have an album club. We don't. That's not why people are turning to us.

Kevin Greenlee (31:14)

Then what are you doing?

Anya Cain (31:15)

I'm just talking, man. I'm just trying to live my life.

Kevin Greenlee (31:18)

Okay.

Anya Cain (31:19)

Okay.

Kevin Greenlee (31:20)

Go on to Kane. Case two.

Anya Cain (31:23)

So I actually have two cases for this. One out of New York City, New York, and one out of Traverse City, Michigan. So I don't know. I just was kind of following both of them and both upset me, so I wanted to include them for all of you on July. And I'm Going to be continuing in the case of the mass shooter, continuing our trend of not naming the shooter. So I will discuss some. I'm sorry, I will discuss some details about the shooter, but I'm not gonna name him because if you do this, you don't deserve to be named. You deserve to be forgotten like the wretch you are. So on July 28, 2025, a mass shooter targeted a skyscraper building in midtown Manhattan. This freaks me out. I'm just. I used to work in like a. I didn't work in midtown, but we worked in the Flatiron district. And then our office moved down to the financial district. Just the whole like working in an office in New York City thing. Like, I, I find this very upsetting. Gosh. So this guy drives all the way from Las Vegas where he worked as a security club for the Horseshoe Casino, and then arrives in New York City and goes into this office building that has headquarters for both Blackstone and a major financial group and the National Football League. And he goes into the lobby kind of early evening, and he shoots. Unfortunately, A young man, 36 year old, Dideroul Islam. He was an immigrant from Bangladesh and he was also a New York Police Department officer. He was off duty. He'd been there for. He'd been with the department for three and a half years. He was off duty at the time. One thing a lot of police officers do is you. You know, he was working a security side gig through the NYPD in this building and he was shot and killed in that. He's got two little boys and his wife is pregnant with their third child. This is an unimaginable tragedy. Like I just can't. All of these people who lost their lives, it's horrible. There was also. Wesley Lapatner was killed. She was a kind of a executive with Blackstone. She was the CEO of one of their largest funds, the Blackstone Real Estate Income Trust. She was previously at Goldman Sachs. She's a mother, she's married. Horrible, horrible situation. And then there was also Alande Etienne, another security guard killed. He was, you know, just very beloved by his community. There was a woman named Julia Hyman who was an associate at Rudin Management. Rudin Management is like this real estate giant. They own the building. What police now think is that he was going for the NFL offices for reasons I will discuss momentarily. So one NFL employee was seriously wounded. This guy goes up the elevator to the 33rd floor. He kills Julia Hyman up there and then he barricades himself in and kills himself with A shot to the chest. So, yeah, so he did commit suicide. I'm sorry, we forgot to put a suicide warning in here. But he. He died as a result of this attack. And what police have found about him so far is that he had a history of mental health crises. He had two mental health crisis holds, one in 2022 and one in 2024. Someone tipped him off because he was buying lots of ammunition and an aftermarket trigger at the Las Vegas Gun show recently. I guess it's not clear. And he seemingly, in 2022, got his concealed carry license. So it's not clear if he got that before or after the mental health hold. So he seemingly was motivated because he believed he had cte. So what, what is cte? CTE is Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy. Cte. So it's. It's something that is. It's a brain disease, and it worsens your cognitive abilities. And it's been linked to things like more impulsive behavior. It's been linked to things like more violent behavior. And one thing that's been linked to is sports that have repeated head injuries, like football, like American football, I think, quite a lot, actually. So rugby, wrestling, boxing, if you're taking a bunch of hits to the heads, mixed martial arts. So not a good situation. So it's become more controversial in recent times as it's been studied. Here's one big problem with it. No one can go tomorrow and say, oh, I have cte. The only way you can really test for it is through an autopsy. So you have to be dead in order to, like, know that you definitely had it. So that's problematic.

Kevin Greenlee (36:54)

I'm guessing there are symptoms that they can make educated guesses as to whether or not a person has it while they're still living.

Anya Cain (37:02)

I believe so. But certain things might also have multiple meanings. So it's not clear. If this guy actually had C, T, E, there'd be no way to tell for sure because he was a high school football player and, you know, they're. So it's possible. But it's also possible that he was just mentally ill and thought he had CT and wanted revenge on the NFL because of that. So, like, I don't think we. That's gonna be something. We're gonna have to wait for the autopsy to see if he really had it. But that, you know, he didn't even go in the right building. I mean, he didn't even go to the right office, rather. So like, he ended up just killing a bunch of random people and nothing to do with the NFL. So, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna say this. And you know, I mean, I'm kind of like a person where on the gun issue I feel a certain type of way, but I also understand and respect people might feel differently. I don't really know why a guy who has like two mental health crisis holds in, you know, the span of two years, needs like a rifle. I don't really see that. I don't really see that benefiting society. So, you know, that's just me. What do you think?

Kevin Greenlee (38:08)

I tend to agree.

Anya Cain (38:10)

Like, what does he need a gun for? Like, you know, and if he's mentally ill and, you know, acting in good faith, I would think he wouldn't want one. So bizarre. But anyways, awful that all those people lost their lives. Let's talk about something else that kind of caught my eye in terms of mass attacks. Oh. And my sources for that were New York Times, ABC 7 New York, and. Yeah. And then my sources for this one are Facebook posts from the Emmet County Sheriff's Office, ABC 30, and the Detroit Free Press. So this, I think I can name this guy because he didn't kill anyone, Right. Or maybe I just won't. Yeah, he doesn't.

Kevin Greenlee (38:54)

It's up to you. It's a free country.

Anya Cain (38:55)

I'm just not gonna, like, like, who cares? These people are losers. This happened on all, you know, on July 26, 2025. And it was just like horrifying. Cause I was like, I could just see, like anyone could get caught up in something like this, Right? There's a Walmart in Traverse City, Michigan, and this guy went on a stabbing spree there, stabbed 11 people, critically wounding some of them. Thank God no one has died yet. And seemingly everyone is recovering. So thank goodness for that. He's been charged with terrorism as well as, you know, I assume attempted murder, because he's trying to strike fear into the community. Apparently he was going up to these people. No verbal threats, no warning. Victims were ages 29 to 84. And this is the situation where you had everyday heroes because a group of civilians, a group of men confronted him. One of them had a gun on him, and they were able to kind of get him out of the store seemingly and kind of hold him down the parking lot. There's video footage of. Of that out there. And I just want to say, all those men, incredibly impressive, incredibly brave, the exact kind of people you'd want to deal with a situation like this. So thank goodness. I think if they hadn't done that this could have been an even worse story than it actually is. So, Noel Moganberg, I'm sorry if I said that wrong, is the Grand Traverse county prosecutor. She said that sky has a, quote, clear history of mental illness and that it seems that he is a homeless person. Because that is something that the Emmett county sheriff. That's about two hours to the south of Traverse City. No, rather. I'm sorry, that's two hours the north of Traverse City. They said they were trying to find him. He was a homeless guy they were trying to bring into custody for a different matter, and they couldn't find him. And then the next thing they do, I guess, is they look on the news and he's stabbing people in Traverse City. So they. You know, this is a guy who. He was apparently making comments to some of the witnesses who talked to the Detroit Free Press saying that everyone in the store was bad and he had to, you know, they had to die and stuff. So it's like, you know, people like this don't need to be out in society because people should be able to go to a Walmart and not get stabbed by someone dealing with this. You know, for. For both of these attackers, if there's a biological or mental illness or some kind of crisis or drugs or whatever aspect to what you did, they did, you know, then you can kind of, you know, you feel like, oh, well, maybe, you know, maybe they should have gotten support sooner. And. Yes, and yes. But at the same time, you shouldn't be killed because you go to work or Walmart. You know, like, someone's crisis is not necessarily, you know, like, I guess it's just like, at this point, like, people like this shouldn't be out there. If there's. If they're throwing up all these red flags, you know, there's. There shouldn't be access to. If this guy had had a gun in Michigan, there would definitely be more people dead.

Kevin Greenlee (41:59)

True.

Anya Cain (42:00)

You know, because, like, you don't. He had to go up and stab everybody individually. Right. So he. He would not have had to do that if he had had an assault rifle. But, you know, good point. Thank God for that. But again, it's just like. It's a situation where it's like. It. Yeah. We can. At the one hand, I can say, yeah, I think the guns are part of the problem. But at the same time, I also think some people are just not safe to be out. And I think these two people both fell into that category. So I don't know.

Kevin Greenlee (42:29)

So shall we move on?

Anya Cain (42:31)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (42:32)

So you're ready for me to move on?

Anya Cain (42:34)

Uh huh.

Kevin Greenlee (42:35)

Just wanted to double check. So the case I wanted to discuss is a recent development in an older case, which is the case of Ayton Pace. This is a case that is very famous and is very well known. It's a tragic case where a man was convicted fairly recently for a 1979 murder of a six year old boy in New York, I believe. This was a very big case in New York, wasn't it?

Anya Cain (43:06)

This was a huge case in New York and also I would say probably the nation. I think this kind of influenced how people, how safe people felt about letting their kids sort of go off without them. Because I think what people don't realize in my generation is that like in previous decades, kids would go do their own thing. I mean, they weren't always supervised by parents. Things like this case changed all that.

Kevin Greenlee (43:33)

So 2017, a man named Pedro Hernandez is convicted of this terrible crime. And the reason it's come up now is that his conviction was just thrown out. And I will tell you why it was thrown out. Police interrogated this man for I believe, seven or so hours without a Miranda warning. And near the end of that time he confesses, at which point they turn on a camera and give him his Miranda warning and he confesses again. And then there's also a third confession. And so the jury hears these confessions, it gives the details I just gave you. And during their deliberations they send in a note to the judge saying if we decide that that first confession is inadmissible and we shouldn't consider it because of our concerns about the Miranda, do we then have to also throw out the other two confessions? And the judge said no, that's literally his answer, no. And that has become an issue because it's literally true. No, you don't have to throw out the others. But it's also true that it's a heck of a lot more complicated than that. And it might have been more useful for the judge to give them more guidance because it's kind of, for the lack of a better word, it's a trick that police can do where they can interrogate someone for a long, long time without Miranda, get a confession, turn on the camera here, we're Mirandizing him. Here's a new confession. It counts, folks. And that can manipulate the defendant into giving a confession he wouldn't otherwise have given. While he's technically Mirandized, but he wasn't Mirandized the first time around. That's not really fair, is It. Anya, I don't.

Anya Cain (45:37)

I guess I'm failing to see. So did the judge get it wrong when he said no?

Kevin Greenlee (45:41)

That's technically correct. You don't have to throw out those others. But there should be more guidance given. There have been court decisions that in instances like that, one thing you can look at when you're considering the other confessions, whether they should be admissible is, as I say, it's kind of a trick that the police can use, is to do this. And so did they try to fix the trick? In other words, did you have, like, the seven or eight hours of interrogation without Miranda and then get the confession and then just immediately turn on the camera and Mirandize him, or did you wait a while for him to have a chance to think about it, perhaps consult an attorney? And if that was the case, then, well, maybe we can go ahead and include the confessions. But if not, then that might be an argument to exclude the confessions. Basically, you have to play the game fairly. And if you spend all this time basically browbeating a person into giving.

Anya Cain (46:44)

I guess. I don't know, what if it's like they're browbeating him or they're pushing him, or it's the very hostile thing, or there's threats. Yeah. Then I would understand it more. It would really just depend.

Kevin Greenlee (46:55)

I understand what you're saying, but just in this context, that doesn't matter. What matters is it was an extended period of interrogation without Miranda, and then after he confesses, then he gets Miranda and he confesses again.

Anya Cain (47:09)

When I see those questions get answered by judges, it's often relatively terse or even unhelpful sometimes. So I guess I'm just. I'm struggling to see where the judge erred, if he was technically correct.

Kevin Greenlee (47:22)

Well, the appeals court, the higher court, said he should have given more guidance and that a simple no was not enough. I do have concerns about the rights of the defendant.

Anya Cain (47:34)

Yeah, and I do, too. I mean, obviously, that has to be protected, and that's first and foremost in our system. It's not the rights of the victim, it's the rights of the defendant.

Kevin Greenlee (47:42)

It seems to be a tactic that sometimes law enforcement used to use, where they would basically browbeat a person until they get a confession and then have them repeat it after a Miranda warning is given. He's not being let out. He's going. There's going to be an opportunity to give him another trial.

Anya Cain (48:00)

I would say you have to fall down the side of doing what's right for the defendant and ensuring his rights are Protected.

Kevin Greenlee (48:06)

Anytime you have a verdict being thrown out, it's a sign of a failure in the system. No one likes that. Sometimes it's necessary. My sources for that one, by the way, were the AP and also the court decision. And then I just wanted to do another one very quickly. My source for this is wowt.com this is a case out of Nebraska where a man murdered via stabbing a 17 year old girl named Mary Kay Hess back in 1969. And they weren't able to identify him and get him incarcerated and charged until very recently. And now it looks like he's going to be given an opportunity to get a plea deal, which means that he will likely get a very tiny sentence of months, what if not just a few years when you include time served since his arrest. And the family is very upset about it.

Anya Cain (49:12)

I don't blame him. I mean that's pretty. That's not, that's not what you want in a situation where a teenager was stabbed to death by a creep, right?

Kevin Greenlee (49:20)

No.

Anya Cain (49:22)

Is there any indication of why the prosecutor is offering this generous plea deal?

Kevin Greenlee (49:27)

The prosecutor, or rather the county attorney said, quote, there were some tough decisions to be made about this case. I'm truly sorry they are not happy.

Anya Cain (49:37)

Sounds like they had a really bad case against him.

Kevin Greenlee (49:40)

Yes. And I think also in a situation like that, you couple it with the fact that this person is 77 years old at this time in his mug shot. He doesn't really.

Anya Cain (49:50)

He looks awful.

Kevin Greenlee (49:52)

So even a sentence of a few years might be a life sentence. And I imagine anytime you try to try a case that involves a crime that happened decades ago, that's going to be a challenge.

Anya Cain (50:05)

The attorney, the county attorney may be just happy that he's admitting it or something because it really doesn't sound like that doesn't. That's not a something I would feel the state or the prosecution would do from a place of strength.

Kevin Greenlee (50:17)

Right.

Anya Cain (50:18)

So it may be a situation where like this is all they can do. And unfortunately some cases are going to be like that. Like, you know, defense attorneys and prosecutors are. Can't work magic on a case that's really stacked against them where there's a lot of problems with the evidence or evidence or whatever. You know, this is a. So the family's totally valid and how they feel about that, I would be insulted too. But at the same time, like this may be all they can get. Yeah, that's the thing. I think in true crime, like, I think people tend to be overly optimistic. Like surely there's another way Surely we have to do it this way. And sometimes you just. It's a really old case and that's all you're gonna get because I don't know, what do you think?

Kevin Greenlee (51:07)

I look at this guy, he's decrepit, he doesn't look good. I'm always a challenge unit under the best of circumstances as to whether or not the jury is going to see things your way. I understand why they made this plea deal. I would also be upset if I've been waiting for justice in the death of my loved one for all of these decades. They finally find the guy and then he's going to get a very small sentence.

Anya Cain (51:32)

I guess I'd want to know more about the evidence against him. It doesn't sound like there's a lot I, I would be curious of why, why this happened. Like, was, was it just there? What they didn't feel like it was a strong thing, but like they, this is just the only way to go forward or. I mean, if it was a situation where you looked at it and they had pretty good evidence, then I would be alarmed. Right. Why they did this. But if, if it's a situation where it's kind of marginal, you know, you. It's not a good outcome.

Kevin Greenlee (52:05)

The husband of the victim's cousin said, well, this is John Toll quote. I don't get why they drop it so far down. Unless they just want to get him out of there. They don't want to pay for it, probably. Health care costs money and again, he looks like a sick man.

Anya Cain (52:21)

If that's the case and it's a cost issue, then that's disgraceful. If it's an evidence issue, then that's understandable and the county attorney's probably doing the best he can. So it kind of just depends on the motivations. I would hope that they would not be like, well, we gotta. Can't add this line item in the budget or whatever. That would be a very stupid thing because it's. Her life mattered, right? This girl's life mattered. So I would hope it wouldn't be that. But, you know, just because someone's sick and old and they're not gonna have a good time in prison doesn't mean that that's a sentence that should make anyone feel good about a 7, you know, 17 year old losing their life in this way. Throw the book at him, you know, I mean, that's what they did to the guys in, in the Laurel Jean Mitchell case here in Indiana. That's what they should do. They're Decrepit. Good. You know, have fun. But in this case, you know, I don't know. I'd be really curious.

Kevin Greenlee (53:19)

So I feel like I've really been off my game this episode. You think it's because I was just so rattled by that unexpected pop culture reference? Is that. How is that the effect I have on you when I suddenly talk about pop culture?

Anya Cain (53:30)

I'm always off my game, baby. That's just how I am. And I don't think you were off your game. I thought you were on your game. Oh, you did a great job. Why do you think you did badly?

Kevin Greenlee (53:39)

Because I'm still. It's just unexpected pop culture reference. How is that allowed? What are you talking about?

Anya Cain (53:49)

You do this all the time.

Kevin Greenlee (53:50)

It's like suddenly it's the Murder Sheet Variety Hour, which is like the Brady Bugs Variety Hour, where suddenly we're talking about music and stuff.

Anya Cain (53:59)

If you make us do a variety hour, I'm quitting the program. I'm not going to do a Variety hour. I know that's kind of your dream.

Kevin Greenlee (54:07)

To have you do a Variety hour.

Anya Cain (54:09)

To have us do a variety. Yeah. You would put me up to it. You wouldn't even have to be humiliated. It would just be me. My Variety Hour totally panned. I'm getting mad about this. Even though it didn't happen.

Kevin Greenlee (54:22)

I think people would enjoy hearing you sing and do a little dance, maybe wearing a hat, you know, do a little number about Easter.

Anya Cain (54:39)

No, I know everyone wants to see Kevin's Variety Hour special. The Grass is Always Greenly. That's what it'd be called. I don't even know what that means.

Kevin Greenlee (54:55)

It means nothing.

Anya Cain (54:56)

It means nothing. It's a stupid idea. We put. We'd put so much time and effort and expense into it. It would just be a big disaster. We'd humiliate our. Themselves. It's not even a relevant, you know, cultural thing anymore. It's just. Oh, God, I'm getting stressed out about this.

Kevin Greenlee (55:11)

So does it throw you off and I just suddenly start talking about pop culture? Should I stop?

Anya Cain (55:15)

I don't know what you're. I. I don't. What? What are you talking about?

Kevin Greenlee (55:20)

Like, I'm just rambling.

Anya Cain (55:22)

We're allowed to talk with people, with each other on the show. I don't. What do you want from me? What are you rambling about?

Kevin Greenlee (55:30)

Just push the button.

Anya Cain (55:31)

Whatever. Oh, wait. We should say our things that we normally say.

Kevin Greenlee (55:33)

Oh, say the things you normally say.

Anya Cain (55:35)

I'll just get a book for sale. Don't. Just relax. What are you doing? You can say some things, too. There's the book Shadow of the Bridge about the Delphi murders. We hope it's going to be really good and we hope we buy it.

Kevin Greenlee (55:50)

We know it's going to be very good. It tells an interesting story that you probably haven't heard in all of its details are put together in this way.

Anya Cain (56:01)

We're also going to be a Crimecon this year. I think our code for Crimecon is murder Sheet. Very simple, very elegant. Get some discounts off the badges. I think 10% off.

Kevin Greenlee (56:12)

We're going to be doing a book signing at the Biscuit Place.

Anya Cain (56:15)

We're going to go to the Delphi Biscuit Place and do a book signing, but I don't remember what day that is.

Kevin Greenlee (56:19)

So we're doing lots of appearances.

Anya Cain (56:24)

No, there's nothing out there yet. But there's going to be a lot of different appearances around Indiana and perhaps even beyond.

Kevin Greenlee (56:30)

So later today, I'm thinking about making an appearance at a pizza place.

Anya Cain (56:36)

But I guess. Guess which one. If maybe you show up at your local pizza place, Kevin might be there. A lot of people are going to be disappointed. Also, it's Wednesday when we're recording this, so they're going to miss you by two days.

Kevin Greenlee (56:50)

Anyway, Anya, there's a pretty good chance I'll also be going to a pizza place on Friday. You'll still be there, like any day of the week. There's a great chance I'm eating pizza.

Anya Cain (57:02)

Yeah, that's. That's fair. And then, you know, if anyone wants any shirts, we still got some murdersheetshop.com. we also teamed up with TeePublic, aka Dashery, to do some new ones. And they have, like, more designs and they're more sizing options and that can be found@themurder sheet. Free.com and that's in our show notes. And they made a new design that says you can't unring the bell, which is. I asked them why did. What does that mean? And they said, oh, you said that on an episode. And I. I said, I don't even remember saying that, but I said it. And they thought it was great and they made a T shirt about it. So we'll probably add some more designs to that. There's a lot of things I don't remember saying in this show. Sometimes. You ever. You ever have that right where Kevin, that people like. Kevin's comments about the pot roast were quite droll. And you're just sitting there sweating like, what the hell Did I say no?

Kevin Greenlee (58:01)

My comments about the pot roast were pretty good.

Anya Cain (58:05)

You really captured something about life. I always, like, I remember that was really bad during trial. People would be like, yeah, you said this. I'd be like, oh, God. But nowadays it still happens. People are like, ah, Anya's. Anya's rant about them. Like, oh, God, what did I say? Why didn't Kevin stop me?

Kevin Greenlee (58:28)

Push the button.

Anya Cain (58:29)

Yeah. All right, have a great Friday, everybody.

Kevin Greenlee (58:32)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (58:53)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Kevin Greenlee (59:16)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

Anya Cain (59:27)

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

Kevin Greenlee (59:50)

You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

Anya Cain (60:09)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (60:10)

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was SimpliSafe.

Anya Cain (60:24)

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Kevin Greenlee (62:08)

So it's really reduced your cravings.

Anya Cain (62:10)

Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings. Sometimes I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their Hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, a couple doses. And I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it's gonna reduce your hot flashes. You're gonna have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order@happymammoth.com just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happymammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today.