The Cheat Sheet: Detention and Disconnection

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary: "The Cheat Sheet: Detention and Disconnection"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Cheat Sheet: Detention and Disconnection
• Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
• Release Date: December 6, 2024
• Description: A deep dive into recent true crime cases with a focus on legal analysis and original reporting.

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1. Introduction and Overview

The episode begins with Áine Cain introducing the topics for discussion, highlighting their focus on cases connected to Hawaii, Kansas, and Indianapolis. The hosts emphasize their journalistic approach to true crime, aiming to provide in-depth coverage and thoughtful analysis.

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2. The Case of Mike Misky and His Death in Federal Detention

Sources: Honolulu Civil Beat ([03:23])

Áine and Kevin discuss the case of Mike Misky, a convicted crime lord from Hawaii. Misky, who operated an extermination company as a facade for his criminal activities, was involved in various crimes, including kidnapping and the presumed murder of Jonathan Fraser in retaliation for his son Caleb's fatal car accident.

Key Points:

• Misky was convicted on multiple federal charges after a lengthy trial lasting seven to eight months.
• On December 1st, 2024, Mike Misky was found dead in his cell at the Federal Detention Center in Honolulu. The reported cause of death is suicide, though speculation and conspiracy theories have arisen, reminiscent of the Jeffrey Epstein case.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain at [14:27]: "It's not clear at this point what exactly happened, but sources are saying that it's suicide."
• Kevin Greenlee at [16:09]: "When something like this happens, it gives rise to conspiracy theories... the dullest explanation here is that it was in fact suicide."

Discussion: The hosts express concern over the apparent failure of the detention system to prevent such incidents, regardless of the individual's notoriety. They advocate for thorough investigations to understand and prevent future occurrences of suicide or other harms within detention facilities.

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3. Missing Person Case: Hannah Kobayashi

Sources: NBC, USA Today ([16:39])

The episode transitions to the disappearance of Hannah Kobayashi, a 30-year-old woman from Maui, Hawaii. Hannah vanished after traveling to Los Angeles with plans to continue to New York City. Her family grew concerned after her last communication exhibited unusual behavior, prompting a missing person report.

Key Points:

• Hannah was last seen on November 12th, 2024, entering Mexico alone with her luggage.
• Her father was found dead on November 24th, with authorities attributing the death to suicide.
• The Los Angeles Police Department released footage showing Hannah crossing the border into Mexico, indicating she acted independently without coercion.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain at [20:16]: "She's alone, she has her luggage. She does not appear to be coerced or, you know, not like a strange man with her, forcing her along."
• Kevin Greenlee at [22:48]: "There are so much we don't know here... maybe she's just so involved with that that she is not even aware of the search going on."

Discussion: Áine and Kevin delve into the complexities of respecting Hannah's autonomy while acknowledging her family's distress. They highlight the balance between personal freedom and the desire for loved ones' safety, emphasizing the importance of privacy unless new evidence emerges.

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4. Kansas Supreme Court Deliberation on Premeditation: Francisco Mendez’s Case

Sources: Kansas Supreme Court Opinion ([24:05])

The hosts examine a Kansas Supreme Court case involving Francisco "Frankie" Mendez, who was convicted of premeditated murder after wounding and killing university football player Dwayne Simmons over a minor provocation.

Key Points:

• Incident: Mendez and accomplices confronted football players for not providing their names, leading to a shootout that resulted in Simmons' death.
• Legal Focus: The court's determination of premeditation hinged on the brief period (5-15 seconds) Mendez took before returning to shoot, which the court deemed sufficient for premeditation.
• Premeditation Debate: Áine questions the practicality and fairness of defining premeditation with such short time frames, arguing it may blur the line between impulsive actions and calculated decisions.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee at [25:30]: "Does that make sense?"
• Áine Cain at [27:17]: "Why did you go back and shoot them?"

Discussion: Áine and Kevin debate the legal nuances of premeditation, considering whether mere hesitation qualifies as planning. They discuss the implications of such definitions on legal outcomes and the potential for misuse in sentencing, highlighting the subjective nature of legal interpretations.

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5. Indianapolis Kidnapping Case Involving Two Babies

Sources: USA Today, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police ([38:26])

The final major case discussed involves a vehicle theft in Indianapolis that turned into a kidnapping when two infants, aged five and four months, were left in the stolen car's ditch during cold weather.

Key Points:

• Incident: A 2013 Hyundai Sonata was stolen with two baby girls onboard. The vehicle was later found abandoned with the babies left outside.
• Heroic Intervention: Robert Dean discovered the abandoned car with the babies in the ditch, promptly rescuing them and alerting the police.
• Outcome: The babies were found safe, and the swift action of Robert Dean prevented a potential tragedy.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain at [42:45]: "This guy's a hero."
• Kevin Greenlee at [44:04]: "A heartwarming story for the holiday season because at least it ended happily."

Discussion: The hosts commend Robert Dean's quick thinking and bravery, contrasting the severity of the crime with the positive outcome. They discuss preventative measures for such incidents and emphasize the importance of community vigilance in ensuring the safety of vulnerable individuals.

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6. Host Commentary and Personal Stories

Towards the end of the episode, Áine and Kevin share personal anecdotes, including playful interactions about merchandise advertisements and celebrating birthdays. They balance heavy content with light-hearted moments, maintaining an engaging listener experience.

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7. Conclusion and Support Information

The episode concludes with the hosts encouraging listeners to support the podcast through merchandise purchases and sponsorships. They provide information on how listeners can contribute and stay connected with the Murder Sheet community.

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Final Notes: "The Cheat Sheet: Detention and Disconnection" offers a comprehensive exploration of recent true crime cases, blending detailed reporting with insightful legal analysis. Áine and Kevin effectively navigate complex emotional landscapes, providing listeners with both information and thoughtful commentary.

Support the Podcast:

• Merchandise: Visit murdersheetshop.com to purchase Murder Sheet apparel.
• Sponsors: Support through sponsors like Via Hemp and Quince, using provided discount codes to contribute to the show's sustainability.

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Remember: If you have information related to any of the cases discussed, contact Murder Sheet at [e-mail] or report to the appropriate authorities.

Transcript

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[Anya Kane]

This episode includes discussion of suicide as well as crimes against children and murder. Two of our cases that we selected for today are actually cases with a connection to the state of Hawaii. So one takes place in Hawaii. The other is kind of more of a spans Hawaii to California and maybe even an international angle at this point. We're also doing a case based in Kansas and one based in Indianapolis, Indiana, in our backyard. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Kane]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Detention and disconnection. Really off my game with that awkward pause before the intro. But you know, it's it's December. We're kind of winding down for the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Year, so keeping it real.

[Anya Kane]

Keeping it real. Trying to reflect. Anyways, let's get to it. So this first case, my source for this was the Honolulu Civil Beat, which.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is a great Publication, actually, before we get to that.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, I know. Now I'm messing up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Really off her game.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

She wanted to keep things. She wanted to start off a little bit closer to, wow.

[Anya Kane]

That. This is. I'm. I'm sorry, everybody. This is. This is just. This is how things are. So, yeah, I did want to mention something. It's kind of cool. So our hometown paper, I guess, is the Indianapolis Star, which is a great local newspaper, and if you're in the Indianapolis area, you should definitely subscribe. And they actually interviewed us for a recent piece on true crime, and they also interviewed our friends Brett and Alice from the prosecutors. They had some great quotes. And so it's all about the impact of the sort of true crime industrial complex, as I call it, on the Delphi murders case and how that can maybe come from an understandable place, but certainly impacts real people. We'll include a link to the article, and we would strongly encourage people to read it. We think it's really good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It made a number of interesting points, and it's possible it may have made a few criticisms of some people in this space, as it should.

[Anya Kane]

And I think it's just a necessary conversation. And, you know, and. And. And like, this is something that. It's people's lives. It's not like we're all debating about, like, a football game or something where it's like, you know, if you like the Chiefs or if you like the Colts, that's your call. Have a good time. You know, no one's right or wrong. I'm sure a lot of football people are getting angry at me right now, but, you know, like, it's. It's kind of your opinion, but when we're talking about stuff as serious as the murder of children, then I think it behooves us, as a true crime community to mature out of some of the nonsense that we've been seeing lately and to kind of put on a professional, you know, attitude about what we're doing. And that means having boundaries. That means having some kind of codes of conduct, I think. And we haven't seen that yet, but we'd love to see it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Articles in the Indianapolis Star. Unfortunately, it is behind a paywall, so it's. So you have to pay for it if you want to read it. I think it's a good article. There's also. I love pictures of Anya. There's a picture of Anya in there.

[Anya Kane]

No, don't. That's not a selling point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think it's a.

[Anya Kane]

It's not a selling point for people. It's very nice of you. Like, that's. I, it's the, what you want is the content, the, the actual reporting. And you know, if you're, if you're in Indiana, then it can't hurt to subscribe to the Indianapolis Star.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's kind of, if not, I think you have to pay like a dollar. But it's worth it just to see that picture of.

[Anya Kane]

Oh my gosh, stop overselling it. It's like, you're so ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, she's not wearing a hat in the picture, unfortunately. But other than that, it's great. Shall we move on?

[Anya Kane]

Yes, I think we shall. So next is a case out of Hawaii that we covered in the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have two Hawaii related cases that we're going to start off with and both of them are upd. We have covered them before. The first one involves a man named Mike Misky. As Anya mentioned earlier, a great source for this is Hawaii Civil Beat, which has covered this story incredibly well. And probably their best reporter on the Mike Miskey story has been Ian Lind. We interviewed Ian on this very program about this crazy case, this complicated case involving Mike Misky. Anya, who is Mike Miskey?

[Anya Kane]

Mike Misky. And I can say this because he was convicted of these charges, but he is essentially a crime lord. Mike Miskey Jr. Is a crime lord in, or was a crime lord in Hawaii. He operated for years. His sort of ostensible day job was running an extermination company. But in reality he was doing a lot of crimes and kidnapping and threatening people. Perhaps his most serious crime is that his son Caleb was killed in a car accident. There was a young, another young man in the vehicle, Jonathan Fraser. And Misy came to believe that Jonathan Fraser was driving and was responsible for his son's death. So on around July 30, 2016, Frasier is last seen. He's never seen again. He's. His body is never found, but he is presumed to have been murdered. And that was one of the charges that Misky got hit with. He essentially disappeared this man out of revenge. So he did a lot of pretty horrible things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean like it was like a nightclub gas.

[Anya Kane]

I was about to say that he like, he like gassed a nightclub that was like a rival nightclub. It like you got to listen to this episode with Ian. Ian does a great job at breaking it all down, explaining it. He covered that trial in depth. There were a number of federal charges. So this was a very long trial, lots of charges. I mean, to give you a sense like sometimes like you, you read about something like this and it almost made me think like, like when you read about like corruption in the like 1930s in like Chicago where it's like someone's just doing all this crazy stuff and you're like, how could you get away for it, away with it for that long? And that's kind of the stuff Misky was doing in Hawaii, in Oahu specifically.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, so he the trial lasted, I believe, seven or eight months. It lasted a long time. And the reason for that is because a lot of charges and they were incredibly complicated. And Ian did an amazing job. I think he attended a big chunk of that trial he wrote about. It is an amazing case. So he is convicted and he was scheduled to be sentenced, I believe in January. This holiday season, give yourself and those you love the gift of fun, creativity, relaxation or better sleep. Give them the gift of Via Hemp.

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[Anya Kane]

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[Anya Kane]

Well, to talk about what happened next, we have to go back a little bit. So since his arrest in 2020, I believe it was ju July 15th, Misky has been in the Federal Detention center in Honolulu. And on Sunday, which was, I guess December 1st, Miski was found dead in his cell. And this was confirmed to the civil beat by Assistant U.S. attorney Ken Sorenson. It's not clear at this point what exactly happened, but sources are saying that it's suicide. Suicide? Yes. And obviously this is very troubling because, you know, part of being incarcerated, people are supposed to be kept safe from other inmates and themselves. So whenever you have something like a suicide or an attack or a homicide within a detention center, that's a failure on the part of the government to ensure that things like that are not happening. And it's concerning no matter who's doing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It and is you, Anya. And as all of our listeners are well aware, when something like this happens, it gives rise to conspiracy theories. We all remember when Jeffrey Epstein was found dead in a cell. There were all sorts of theories and speculations that it was actually a murder. I took a cruise through Hawaii, Reddit and Hawaii other Social media people are already speculating that his, his death was not a suicide. It was probably, oh, he had information on higher ups that he was going to reveal at the sent zing or this or that. And I think one thing to remember, and I've said this on the program before, that generally speaking, when you have a mystery, the dullest possible explanation is usually the accurate explanation. And so the dullest explanation here is that it was in fact suicide, that this man perhaps just didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison, didn't want to have to spend decades in prison, so he took this way out. With that said, there will be an investigation. There should be an investigation not only to determine what exactly happened, but more importantly to determine how it happened. And I say determining how it happened is more important because we don't want prisoners doing this to themselves. We don't want prisoners killing themselves. And so if we are able to figure out how it happened in this instance, then that's something we can change so that other prisoners don't do this.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And as I said, you know, people can feel the way they feel about Misky, but he's still a human being and this isn't supposed to happen when one is incarcerated and it's, it's concerning. So hopefully this robust, hopefully the investigation will be robust and really get into, you know, how this happens so it can be prevented and that, you know, more measures can be taken. So I guess that's kind of it for Miski. Wanted to update everyone on that. Another kind of Hawaii connected case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As Hana Kobayashi, what source did you find most useful to discuss this?

[Anya Kane]

I used NBC as well as USA Today. They've been, there's been a lot of national coverage on this case and we briefly covered it on a cheat sheet, I think back when it was first happening and there's been so many developments, it's really kind of exploded as one of those cases that feels like it has gotten that kind of wave of national attention.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you go back to the beginning and remind us who she is and what the initial story was and then we can get into some of the developments?

[Anya Kane]

Sure. So Hannah Kobayashi is a 31 year old, sorry, 30 year old woman from the island of Maui in Hawaii. And she was basically she left Hawaii and went to Los Angeles on November 8th or. Yeah, basically there's a lot of kind of, I don't know, confusion or at least, you know, what her family has claimed publicly is that she was supposed to then from Los Angeles take a connecting flight to New York City and that she had plans to do this, but she did not get on that flight. And it's possible that she never intended to. But anyway, so she stays in Los Angeles and her family becomes concerned. She stays in contact with them for a number of days. Last contacts them on November 11, and they. They felt that her messages were. Were bizarre and concerning, and she was talking about, like, deep fakes and like, you know, people stealing from her. So, you know, understandable concern there. They file a missing person's report, and then the tragedy is compounded. So they're looking for her. People are analyzing all these feeds of, like, she might be spotted here or here is becoming like it's a real thing on social media, and people really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get involved in this. And the family even sets up a fund for people to donate to, to help cover some of the. The financial costs of their search.

[Anya Kane]

Right. And, you know, November 24th, as I mentioned, the tragedy is compounded because Hannah's father was. Was found dead near the Los Angeles airport, and seemingly. That's a. That's a suicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So obviously very tragic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lots of speculation about why he did this or why he might have done that. I don't want to. We don't need to. I don't want to dwell too much on that, but I will say that the family says that basically they believe he died of a broken heart.

[Anya Kane]

So the family, to be clear, you know, because again, conspiracy theories, when stuff like this, you know, what was he getting too close to the truth? The family seems to accept that. That this was unfortunately a death by suicide. But, you know, from there, there's been lately something that developed that I. I mean, I hope. I don't know. Can. Can shed clarity, Can. Can it offer some clarity here or at least, you know, as much as possible? Well, the Los Angeles Police Department has come up, come out with. They have footage of Kobayashi walking across the border to. From the United States to Mexico on November 12th. So this is like the day after she last contacts her family. She goes to Mexico. What they say about this footage is that she's alone, she has her luggage. She does not appear to be coerced or, you know, not like a strange man with her, forcing her along.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is so, in other words, to draw the obvious, obvious conclusion. What they're saying is she was not forced to do this. She chose to go to Mexico on her own. And presumably as part of that decision, she decided not to be maintaining contact with her family.

[Anya Kane]

And. And so this is a difficult. This is a difficult thing, because if you're the family, that doesn't make anything better. You're still like, what the heck is going on? I'm really concerned. It's not like this person to not contact us. We need to know what's going on. But from the perspective of the law and law enforcement and, you know, how our society works, she's 30 years old, and she can do whatever she wants. You know, there's no, like, no one can call the police on you for not calling your mom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

You know, and that's just bluntly how it should be. You know, that that's living in a free society. Right. We don't have to. We don't need to check in with police to leave the country. Unless, I guess, you know, it's like some parole situation. But, like, you know, that's kind of. That's kind of it. And if that's. If that's the case and, you know, I'm sure there's some people like, well, it could still be some kind of, like, she's in danger, but, like, the evidence seems to point away from that. And I think it's best at this point maybe give her and the family some privacy. Unless some new information comes forward that really turns everything on its head. You know, this is. This is something that's captured the imagination. She's a. You know, she's a very pretty woman who has gone missing, and it's kind of under mysterious circumstances, and there's kind of a. An angle on social media where it's like, we can all help by reviewing the footage and seeing if we see her. But at this point, it kind of feels like maybe the best thing to do is kind of move on and let this family kind of. You know, maybe. Maybe there can be. I mean, like, you made the comment to me, she may not even necessarily know that this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, there's so much we don't know here. And I. I remember recently, as you all are well aware, any. And I covered this Delphi murder trial, and during that trial, we were so wrapped up in that. A lot of stuff was going on that we just weren't aware of. And if there's stuff in Hannah's life that is going on that made her go to Mexico or whatever, maybe she's just so involved with that that she is not even aware of the search going on. And if she's in another country, I don't know how much this story has been covered in the Mexican media.

[Anya Kane]

And. And actually of what the LAPD said was, you know, we've reviewed social media. She's kind of someone who frequently posts about, like, wanting to disconnect, wanting to get away, wanting to leave her phone behind, wanting to kind of go. Go off and do her own thing for a while. So, I mean, it's. It's obviously very tragic because there's been a death. And I. I can certainly empathize and understand where the family's coming from, where they want to know, they want to make sure she's okay. They don't feel that this is normal behavior from her, so they feel like we need to get involved and make sure there's nothing else going on. There's no weird stuff going on. There's not any mental health issues going on. But at the end of the day, it. It's not. It's not that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It.

[Anya Kane]

It's kind of up to Hana Kobayashi to kind of be the one to say, I'm gonna. This is what's happening. And so it. It's just, you know, it's one of those kind of complicated cases. But I think at this point, you know, stepping back from it and if there's no crime that was committed, that has to be something where we can, you know, say Hannah's making choices and kind of respect that to a certain extent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

But obviously very, very, very sad, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You ready to move to the next case?

[Anya Kane]

Let's do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Next case comes out of Kansas. And the source I use for that was not a media source at all. It was the opinion of the Kansas Supreme Court. And before I get into the facts of the case or the facts of the part of the case I want to discuss, let's talk about premeditation, because premeditation is what this case is about. So we as a society have decided that a crime is worse if it is premeditated and so deserves a higher level of punishment. And so, for instance, if Anya is just wandering around in a grocery store, she's want to do, and she happens to cross the cereal aisle and she sees a cereal box, and on the picture of the box is some cartoon animal enjoying a bowl of hearty cereal with delicious milk and cream or whatever the heck she puts in her cereal, and she is so enraptured by it, she cannot help but grab that box of cereal and just run. That is seen as being not as bad as if Anya was sitting at home totally calculating and planning, oh, how can I steal this box of cereal? So, planning it, thinking about it in advance, premeditating it, that is seen to make things Worse. Does that make sense?

[Anya Kane]

It makes a lot of sense intuitively. It's like, you know, something you do in the heat of a moment. Maybe. Maybe that was a really bad, impulsive choice, but maybe, you know, that it's not coldly calculating. Like, planning something is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, yeah, I talked about planning stuff, but the fact is you don't even have to necessarily plan something for it to be premeditated. I'm curious, just as a layperson, how much time or effort do you think is really required for something to be considered premeditation as opposed to heat of the moment?

[Anya Kane]

Not to get into, like. I don't know, not to be too situational, but I do think it is somewhat situational. I mean, I. Like, there's circumstances where you could probably describe something to me where there would not be a lot of forethought, but perhaps it would count as premeditation. I think it really would depend. I don't necessarily have a strong opinion on that, but that's just me as a layperson.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're not saying that. Saying, well, a person has to plan or a person has to spend a day or two contemplating at all.

[Anya Kane]

I understand that the law seeks to sort of define everything and set clear rules on everything to make it easier for lawyers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like rules.

[Anya Kane]

Lawyers love rules. And I understand that. But it seems.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, frankly, lay people like rules. Because I can tell you, when people go to lawyers and say, oh, what do I do here? Or what do you think about this? And the lawyer says, well, it depends. People don't like that.

[Anya Kane]

No, people don't like that at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People don't like that at all.

[Anya Kane]

People want certainty. But let me just say, like, at a certain point, doesn't certainty become just kind of stupid? Like, oh, my gosh, I planned this murder for three minutes, so that means I'm doing premeditation. But no, I only did it for 2 minutes and 55 seconds.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So therefore, I'm in the clear.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I'm in the clear. Like, that kind of feels stupid at some point to, like, put a barrier around something like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this case involves Francisco Frankie Mendez, who fired a gun, and he wounded a future NFL football player and actually murdered a university football player.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, my God, that's awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And so here is what happened. This group of people are kind of standing and talking to each other. Mendez is in a car with a couple of other guys. They pull up to this group, which includes the person who was wounded and the person who was murdered, and they ask, oh, do you have any marijuana that you give us. And the group says, no, we're not, we're not going to do that. And then one of the guys says, well, what are your names? And the, the football player says, don't worry about our names. So the car drives off, or begins to drive off. The football players get back to talking and then the car stops. And at that point the guys in the car start shooting at the football players. So whatever the provocation was, and it's a silly provocation, obviously it was these football players not wanting to give these people in the car their names. And so the car then drives off, but they have a few seconds to think about it and say, oh, I'm really upset about this. And that's when the decision is made to know we need to kill people because they didn't give us their names. Which again, is a silly and ridiculous reason to take someone's life.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And a young man named Dwayne Simmons was killed over this. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's abhorrent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So as a layperson, do you think the fact that it took a few seconds for the people in the car to make the decision to start firing, is that enough premeditation?

[Anya Kane]

Well, okay, so, I mean, again, I said it before, maybe situational, I think, to me, the fact that they started to drive away and then came back is interesting. I mean, like, I'm not, I don't really have a strong opinion on this, so I'm not really going to kind of come down on either side, to be honest. But I guess what I'm seeing is like, on the one hand, it's only a few seconds. This is not like they went home and then came back. That would be very clear cut premeditation. That being said, it's also not as if the, these, these men refuse to give them their names. And then Mendez opens fire. At that moment, there is this kind of nebulous area where he drives away and then kind of is like, hm, and then comes back. So I can kind of see both sides, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he, he was convicted. The, the judges who wrote this opinion for the Supreme Court write that the hallmark of premeditation is the internal second thought, or the time it takes for a hesitation to arise. They say the temporal space required to complete that process may be very short, a mere hesitation. And so to get back to the facts of this case, the fact that he did have enough time to drive off, and they say it was like maybe 5, 10, 15 seconds before they turned back around that's enough time. And Mendez was trying to argue, well, I didn't really have time to come and have a second thought because I was so preoccupied with driving that it just.

[Anya Kane]

Then why did you go back and shoot them? Would be the question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the. The judges say it just take. All you need is just a few seconds. You don't need to come up with an elaborate plan if you just have enough time to. To consider it. And if you hesitate just a moment, that's enough time to be considered premeditation. So you. In the grocery store, if you look at the cartoon on the front of the box of cereal and say, I need this box of cereal, and say, well, stealing a box of cereal and wrecking my reputation for just a bowl of cereal, that's ridiculous. And you start to walk away, and you say, well, wait a minute. That's really good cereal. And you turn back around and grab it. That would be enough to change it into a premeditated crime.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I mean, I could see people having an issue with that. To me, it's like. It's almost like if he'd stood there for 10 seconds and then shot them, I think it would be a harder thing to argue because he, like, maybe he's just pausing and, you know, he's thinking about it like, you know, like, it like. But, like, the fact that he's making the choice. I'm driving away. I'm focused on driving, leaving now in my car. And then he turns around that. It's like, you're doing one thing now you're doing the other. I don't know. It's. What do you think? It seems very nebulous. It seems like this kind of area where you can understand why people have such.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At some point, if you continue to whittle down the amount of time needed for premeditation, it gets to the point. What's the point of having the distinction?

[Anya Kane]

Right. Because if I decide to shoot somebody or steal some cereal a second beforehand, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because we all agree in my earlier example, if you go into the store and see the box of cereal, I got to have that cereal, and you grab it, that's not as bad as you sitting at home and hatching a.

[Anya Kane]

Planning a heist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if you say, well, I need to have that cereal, well, no, it's a bad idea. And you start to walk away and say, no, I really want that cereal, and you grab it. Is that so much worse?

[Anya Kane]

It's like we were punishing people who, like, had had more time to you know, like something that's just impulsive and random, which. Which is. Which can also, you know, lead to a very heinous situation. I mean, not in the serial example, but, yeah, it's. It's. I don't know. So. So remind me again, where is the court coming down here? It seems like. Did they overturn some things and not others?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a complicated case. There were other charges that did get overturned, but they. The court said this was fine, that they upheld this part of it.

[Anya Kane]

Okay, they. So, okay, so they're. They're saying, yeah, this was premeditated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

It certainly doesn't fit with what you think of when you think of a premeditated murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The court rides, quote, 10 to 15 seconds is enough time for Mendez to have had an internal second thought before stopping the car, looking back and firing, unquote.

[Anya Kane]

But it seems like. It's not what I think of when I think of premeditation, but it does seem like it does fit with the language of what the law is. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I guess what the argument is that what makes something worse when it's premeditated is you've had a moment to think about it, and you're realizing, this may not be the smart thing to do, but I want to do it anyway, as opposed to, oh, my God, I can't stop myself. That cereal looks so delicious.

[Anya Kane]

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. No, I mean, I guess I can. I can understand it, but I can also understand, like, if you're a defense attorney, you're probably, like, sitting like, okay, like, is. Is a second. Premeditation is two side. Like, where's the limit?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Where is the line? And so, so much of criminal law, so much of law as a whole is devoted to trying to figure out where the line is in everything. When. When does something fall on this side of the line or the other side of the line? And whenever you get those cases that are close to that line, they are very hard to figure out. And I'm not sure how I would have ruled on this one. Do you agree with the court?

[Anya Kane]

I mean, I don't. I don't feel particularly strongly about it, to be honest. I mean, as I said, I can. I can empathize with. If you're on the defense side in this case or any case, you'd be concerned of, like, at some point, we're just making everything premeditated because, like, there's a second before you pull the trigger. Right. And that would concern me because if I'm a defense attorney and my client's going to get a significantly worse outcome because of that. And I feel like people are playing fast and loose with what premeditation means. That's very frustrating and that's not fair in my mind. On the other hand, if you're looking at this from the perspective of what does the law say? And this kind of internal second thought thing, I mean, yeah, this fits. It's, it's just kind of like, you know, I, I understand why we put more of a, you know, I understand, I mean, like when you're, when you're coldly calculating and planning. If I'm going and I'm assembling a crack team of serial heisters and I'm putting in all this planning, you know, I've had time to sit with what I'm doing and how I'm going to possibly, you know, maybe some grocery store employees are going to get traumatized and maybe their business is going to be harmed. And I'm, I'm sitting there with that and I'm saying that's all right. Whereas if I just randomly do it, I wasn't planning on it. You know, maybe I'm just a kind of a careless, impulsive person. Maybe I don't mean as much harm. But at the same time, like, you know, I don't know, it's hard, it's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hard to kind of, it is taking an extra five seconds in the grocery store to determine, well, I don't want to do it. Well, I do want to do it. Does that really give you enough time to really fully analyze and understand how this is going to affect their business and their bottom line?

[Anya Kane]

No. Yeah, I know. I mean, like, well, yeah, because like, it's like, like you should know that like theft is going to be bad for a business. That's not what they want you to do. I, I guess, like, I guess when the, when you look at the law, I, I, I kind of agree with it. But when you think about it, I could see where it kind of gets into the sort of. I know the slippery slope is a fallacy, but you can kind of see where it's like at a certain point, everything's premed, dated because something happened. You know, like there's a gap in time before one thing. I guess my question is, do you agree with it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I'm, I'm not certain that I do. I don't think there's much distinction if we all agree what happened is a violent, impulsive person is upset by something that someone says and though he Starts shooting. I don't see that. It's much worse that he took an extra 10 seconds before he started pulling the trigger. No, it's frankly, it would be much worse to me if an impulsive, violent man remembers something that someone said to him and then two or three hours later he returns and starts shooting. Yeah, that seems to me to be much worse. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it feels.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's like you're such a grievance collector that you're gonna come do this. Yeah, that is worse. But you know, I think the law is written in kind of a vague way like where you can kind of. It's open to interpretation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's why they pay the lawyers the big bucks.

[Anya Kane]

Exactly. All right, you want to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The last case is all you get.

[Anya Kane]

Get out of Kansas.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you told me that. This case. You said don't worry. Kevin, you told me about this case yesterday. You said don't worry, everything's okay. It's a bit of a journey, you.

[Anya Kane]

Up in the middle of the night.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To say that because there's some bad stuff really on. When any is going to start this story, you're going to be concerned. But it all ends up happily. It's okay that I say that. Am I spoiling the suspense?

[Anya Kane]

Spoil the whole thing? Geez, why don't you just do it? No, I'm just kidding. I want to spoil it because I don't. You know, it's a scary situation because so in Indianapolis and my source for this was USA Today in Indianapolis on Monday, December 2nd. A vehicle was stolen. That's always bad. But what was significantly worse is that there were two baby girls in the car at the time of the theft. They were five months old and four months old. So they're little, little babies.

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[Anya Kane]

I y o.com and anytime you have something like this that's very concerning, obviously. So it's not just a stolen vehicle case, it is a kidnapping. And I I know in the USA Today article and you know, I'll link to it so you can read it there. There was another case of this happening. You know, in the they, they noted that in the colder months people might be warming up their car and kind of doing stuff and, and going to, you know, put the car seats and the babies in there and then go out like and that can kind of give an opportunity for a hacking or for a car theft that leads to a kidnapping. So I guess this is also a note to all the new parents and caretakers. Be very alert about things like that. You know, it's all it takes is a second for something really bad to happen and something really bad almost happened here because these babies are missing. This is all happening and it was a, it was a, the car was a 2013 Hyundai Sonata and Indianapolis Metropolitan Police go to East Gimber street, which is on the south side of Indianapolis and they're kind of dealing with this and, and very soon after though they, they found the vehicle. So the vehicle's abandoned, no babies inside. Very bad sign. But then thankfully, very shortly after that they also get a call to 911 of from a man named Robert Dean. So Robert Dean goes outside of his residence on the southeast side of the city and he, he's getting some packages, looks over at the ditch, there's there's some car seats in the ditch. And he's like, hmm, weird. Goes over and the babies are in the car seats. They're okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This guy's a hero.

[Anya Kane]

This guy's a hero. I loved what he said. He said this. I just. This quote made, like, made me smile. Quote. If you see something like a baby in a ditch, say something and do something. So words to live by. Robert Dean's a hero. He got the babies inside. He called police. The babies are okay. And, you know, but can I just say, like. Like people like Dean restore my faith in humanity. What kind of creep steals a car and then leaves babies? It was. It was very cold. The article says it was 27 degrees out. You're leaving little, little babies in the cold. What a horrible. I hope they catch whoever did that. That's just a horrible thing to do. I'm glad they didn't directly hurt the babies, but also the babies were left in a situation where if no one had come out, they could have died. Like, that's a very scary situation. This could have ended way worse. And just, you know, if you don't know, babies in the car, first of all, don't steal cars. Second of all, don't steal cars with babies in it. Third of all, if you're going to, like, leave the kidnap baby somewhere, like, like, I don't know, like, leave them at a gas station. Inside. Leave them somewhere inside. If it's winter or. Or summer or. Just don't do this. Anyways, I don't know who I'm talking to. I know the kidnapper's not listening to this show right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Our audience is full of respectable men and women.

[Anya Kane]

I know you guys aren't considering this. I'm just. It just makes me mad because these poor little babies. And just thank goodness for Robert Dean, for. For doing this and. And doing, you know, getting involved in helping these babies. I'm very happy that they're okay, but it just scares me that there's people like this who would be that calloused as to leave them out in the cold.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A heartwarming story for the holiday season because at least it ended happily.

[Anya Kane]

At least it ended happily, unlike a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lot of the stories we talk about.

[Anya Kane]

I wanted to pick a case where it was a crime, but also, things were okay in the end because, you know, it's the holiday season and, you know, I don't. They're, you know, poor little babies, but they're. They're okay. And they won't remember this because they're very Young.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

I'm sure their families will.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What now? Now we've reached a familiar point in the program, and before we get to that point, I. I'm sure this won't come as too much of a shock to you, but when Anya does the T shirt ads, she just usually just blunders right into it with no advanced planning. And we've all seen how that's worked out. So today, special treat for Anya. Do something really nice. I take her to McDonald's for lunch.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, she deserves a break today. So we are driving to McDonald's, and she starts pitching her ad to me. She's already working on it. She's honing it, and so she's determined it's going to be something special, something's going to make you all race out to your computers and buy these shirts. So let's just sit back and let Anya work her magic on us that she's been working on.

[Anya Kane]

All right, let's do it. Holiday season. You're already laughing at me. This is why the ads are so bad, because I don't get any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not saying the word.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, just falling over there. So holiday season's coming up. It's December 3rd. As we're recording this, it'll be later when you listen to it, I guess. December 6th. And my birthday, Kevin's birthday. So when you're. When you're listening to this, celebrate Kevin's birthday by purchasing a beautiful Murder Sheet shirt. It has our logo on it. It's black. It's nice, sturdy cotton. It has beautiful colors, and it says the Murder Sheet People on it. You're joining the Murder Sheet People nation. You're becoming a part of. Part of the Murder Sheet People family, and you're telling everyone you have wonderful taste in true crime podcasts. And it's the holiday season, you know, so here's. Here's a thought, you know, like, you don't want to buy it for yourself. Well, maybe. Maybe throw the link out to some of your friends and family. They. They don't know what you want. You need. They can't read your mind. You got to tell them, hey, throw that link out. Hey, guys, you want something? You want to get me something that's going to make my day here and send it to your confused friends and family who won't know what it is, but they're going to get it anyway because they love you, they care about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You, and make sure they know you're doing it because it's my birthday and.

[Anya Kane]

You Know, this goes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's my special day.

[Anya Kane]

It's his special day. He's. He's the birthday boy. You got to do it. You got to make his day, or he's going to be sitting around the house moping, and then I'm going to have to deal with it, and I frankly don't want to have to deal with it. So you deal with it preemptively and make sure it doesn't happen. And the other thing that you can do is. I know we've heard from a lot of people. You know, they're. They're. They're listening to this show. Not in a vacuum. They're engaging with it, but they've also got confused friends and families around them who are saying, what is that? Who are these people? What. What are you doing? Why are you, like. Why are you listening to them? They seem weird, but for those people, I'm addressing them right now. If you want to get this person a good Christmas gift, a good holiday gift, a good Hanukkah gift, whatever. Whatever. Whatever you celebrate, this is something to consider. Murdersheetshop.com get on there. A range of sizes. Get the right size, order it. And here's what I was pitching in the car.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here it comes, folks.

[Anya Kane]

This is where. This is where. This is where I go into Don Draper mode, and your minds are going to be blown.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You ready to have a handkerchief to wipe away?

[Anya Kane]

So you're a priority for us, and that's reflected in the fact that it's all priority mail shipping. So you're going to get it very quickly because you're a priority for us. And that sounded way better in my head. But moving right along, this is the shirt ad, and I think I kind of hit all the points. I think it flowed nicely. I think I'm pretty proud of myself right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, maybe I shouldn't say anything about it.

[Anya Kane]

Okay, why don't you say something?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, no.

[Anya Kane]

Your birthday's coming up, so you know there'll be an opportunity for revenge pretty quickly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What a great ad. What an amazing ad is the best ad. Maybe we should never do another ad again, because that one, you. You've achieved perfection.

[Anya Kane]

Stop trying. No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What.

[Anya Kane]

What did you really think? You. You look. You look appalled.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no. You said that if I criticize the ad, it's going to wreck my birthday.

[Anya Kane]

My birthday is ruined. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not that vindictive. What was the problem with my birthday?

[Kevin Greenlee]

My birthday is like the day before Pearl Harbor Day. Yeah. And so as a child, I would sometimes be confused because people would always seem very sad around my birthday to be all these solemn ceremonies on tv, and it's like, is that my fault?

[Anya Kane]

So you're like. You're the opposite of those kids who are born around the Fourth of July, where they think the fireworks are for them, that you think that the nation is in mourning because you were born.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

We've never really recovered as a country. That's so sad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bitter blow.

[Anya Kane]

Gosh, I don't. I don't have a holiday. I mean, I think one time, Holy Thursday was on my birthday. Maybe Easter once, but. But not. Nothing. Nothing that. Nothing that wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I forget. Did you tell the good members of this fine audience if they are interested in taking your advice?

[Anya Kane]

I said, murdersheetshop.com you have so little faith in me, so little faith in my advertisement abilities and my professionalism, that you would think I would leave out something as important as the URL where they can purchase these beautiful shirts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why is my face red?

[Anya Kane]

Well, I've done it before.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if you really want to either give me a happy birthday or if you. If you're, like, on Team Anya and you. And you feel like I'm too hard on her for these ads.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is the week. Just flood us with. Flood us with T shirt orders.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, guys. Okay. This is your opportunity to really put Kevin in his place, which I know we all dream about doing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At least one of us does.

[Anya Kane]

We're all desperate to do. So send in your orders this week, and then, you know, and then I'll be able to say that I did not collapse sales with my marketing abilities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As you have before.

[Anya Kane]

Well, that's your. That's your opinion. That's something you're saying. And I don't. I don't. I think we need to have someone run the numbers up the flagpole to see what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What I think once you hit the button.

[Anya Kane]

All right, I'm going to hit the button, but, yeah. Thank you, guys, and I hope you're having a lovely holiday season. We really appreciate all of you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And by holiday season, you mean Kevin's.

[Anya Kane]

Birthday, A period of mourning. Geez. All right, thanks, everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Kane]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Kane]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So it's the holiday season right now and you might be looking for things to gift both your loved ones and perhaps yourself for some self care. And one thing we'd like you to keep in mind is we have a wonderful sponsor called Via Hemp. This is a company that makes it possible for us to do our show. They support us and so supporting them also supports us and they've got some really cool deals for Murder Sheet listeners who are interested. If you're 21 and older, you can go to viahemp.com that's v I a h e m p.com and you can get 15% off their products which are these amazing premium award winning THC and THC free gummies. They've also got things like topicals, drops, vapes. Each one of them is crafted with a specific mood or effect in mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That is neat. Plus I'd like to say in the ad we've run on the show about this, you in particular talked about how their product, in particular the Zen product, helps you fall asleep. You're not the only one in this marriage who has trouble falling asleep. And so that project has also helped me. It's really difficult to settle down at night sometimes, especially doing this podcast and looking at some of the things we look at and some of the things we have to think about. It's hard to let that go. And so I find this very helpful to help relax at the end of the day.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's like it's a nice CBD CBN thing. So it's THC free. They have a lot of THC free stuff too. And that's, and that's, you know, something that you can look into. THC is not your thing. You don't, you know, you're not out of luck there. And we use their CBD products and that is one That I really do enjoy it just, it's sort of like helping your brain shut off. Like, because I think you and I are both, you know, kind of anxious, so we'll be, like, up at night, like, oh, did we do that? What's like, should we make a list for tomorrow? And it's like, just go to bed. And so basically what the CBD does is kind of yells at our brains to just go to bed, which we need.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did we make a list for tomorrow?

[Anya Kane]

Oh, God, Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe I should go get some.

[Anya Kane]

Don't start. Don't start.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe I should go get some of this.

[Anya Kane]

So have some Zen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm really stressing out here, Anya.

[Anya Kane]

Kevin, take your Zen figures and shut up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Kane]

So this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This product has been a blessing for Anya in more ways than one. Because it does help me shut up. Because it helps me relax.

[Anya Kane]

Shut them down. No, but, but. But truly, this is. I mean, and. And it's not just, you know, anxiety or sleep. They've got stuff for all kinds of things. You can, you know, experiment with microdosing. Some of them just, you know, boost your mood. It's just like, whatever you can think of, they probably have it. So go to their website, check it out, and see if there's anything that might be interesting for you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And let them know we sent you.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, please do let them know we sent you. And just know that it. I think this ships legally to most states, and it. It's, you know, very much, you know, buy the book in that sense, and it'll ship in, like, discrete packaging. So in case you're worried, in case your anxiety is getting the best of you, that's something to note. And, yeah, I guess that kind of wraps it up, but we just want to thank Vi again for sponsoring us. This really helps us out. And when you support our sponsors, you're directly supporting us, especially if you're using our code, because that lets the sponsor know that you know, that we sent you. So again, this holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind. If you're 21 and older, head to via hemp.com and use the code M sheet to receive 15% off. That's via hemp.com and use code M sheet at checkout. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. And this holiday season, enhance your every.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Day with via and put that on your list of things to do tomorrow.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.