The Cheat Sheet: Domestic Disputes and Delphi

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary: "The Cheat Sheet: Domestic Disputes and Delphi"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Cheat Sheet: Domestic Disputes and Delphi
• Release Date: May 2, 2025
• Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into harrowing instances of domestic violence and murder, with a particular focus on cases from Indiana, Michigan, and California. The discussion intertwines personal narratives, legal perspectives, and broader societal implications of domestic disputes escalating to fatal outcomes.

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2. The Case of Laura Sardna and Craig Sheron (Indiana)

The hosts begin by examining the tragic story of Laura Sardna, a 25-year-old woman from Indiana, and her tumultuous relationship with her ex-boyfriend, Craig Sheron.

• Background and Abuse:

  • Laura and Craig's relationship was relatively short-lived, lasting only a few months. During this time, Craig exhibited increasingly abusive behavior, including physical violence that reportedly damaged Laura's eardrum ([04:16] Kevin Greenlee).

• Final Confrontation and Murder:

  • On the day of her death, Laura attempted to sever ties with Craig by changing her apartment locks and sought support from her mother and best friend. At approximately 1:15 PM, during a distressing three-way phone call, Laura expressed her fear, stating, "he's gonna kill me" ([06:56] Kevin Greenlee).
  • Despite Laura's evident fear and plea for help, Craig remained silent as the situation escalated, resulting in her murder. A chilling voicemail from Laura during the incident played a pivotal role in securing Craig's conviction.

• Legal Outcome:

  • Craig Sheron maintained a self-defense stance, despite being over 100 pounds heavier than Laura and having a history of abusive behavior. Ultimately, he was sentenced to 80 years in prison after a plea agreement ([05:21] Kevin Greenlee).

• Notable Quote:

  • Áine Cain reflects on Laura's bravery, stating, "I'm glad that this victim, even though she lost her life, was able to stop this guy from hurting anyone else" ([11:05] Áine Cain).

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3. Societal Perspectives on Domestic Violence

Áine and Kevin engage in a heartfelt discussion about the pervasive issue of domestic violence, emphasizing the disproportionate number of women victims. They argue for stricter penalties and enhanced support systems for victims.

• Gender Dynamics:

  • Áine points out, "Men are the ones who are the murderers. Men are the ones who are going around killing women" ([08:10] Áine Cain), highlighting the gendered nature of such crimes.

• Systemic Failures:

  • The hosts express frustration with the inadequacies of restraining orders and the criminal justice system in preventing domestic abusers from escalating their violence ([14:21] Áine Cain).

• Exploration of Motives:

  • Áine contemplates the psychological roots of abusive men, questioning, "Why do these men do this?" ([09:51] Áine Cain), and calls for deeper research into their upbringing and mental health.

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4. The Case of Kayla Farmer and Joshua Farmer (Fishers, Indiana)

Shifting focus, the podcast covers another domestic violence case in Fishers, Indiana, involving Kayla Farmer and her ex-husband, Joshua Farmer.

• Incident Details:

  • Kayla, a mother of three, was brutally murdered by Joshua after pressing charges against him for abuse. Surveillance footage revealed Joshua ambushing Kayla at a gas station, resulting in her death ([16:00] Áine Cain).

• Legal Proceedings:

  • Joshua Farmer faced multiple charges, including murder and stalking. He ultimately entered a plea agreement, resulting in an 80-year prison sentence ([20:00] Kevin Greenlee).

• Impact on Family:

  • The murder left Kayla's children and family devastated. Áine emphasizes the need for society to protect victims better to prevent such tragedies ([22:51] Kevin Greenlee).

• Notable Quote:

  • Áine passionately asserts, "We need to do more. We need to have stricter penalties" ([12:22] Áine Cain).

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5. Michigan Supreme Court Ruling: Life Without Parole for Young Adults

The hosts discuss a controversial decision by the Michigan Supreme Court, which ruled that sentencing 19 and 21-year-olds to life without parole for murder is "unconstitutionally cruel."

• Court's Rationale:

  • The ruling is based on the understanding that individuals under 21 have not yet fully developed cognitively, impacting their decision-making ([24:09] Kevin Greenlee).

• Retroactive Implications:

  • This decision affects around 400 cases in Michigan, requiring prosecutors to reassess sentences and potentially reduce them ([25:52] Áine Cain).

• Controversial Views:

  • Áine criticizes the ruling as arbitrary, questioning the logic behind exempting slightly older individuals and emphasizing personal responsibility at ages 19 and 20 ([25:52] Áine Cain).

• Notable Quotes:

  • Áine states, "I think it's stupid" ([25:52] Áine Cain).
  • Kevin adds, "I would rather that if their change like this was made, it would be done with more thought and that it would involve the legislature" ([34:33] Kevin Greenlee).

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6. The Delphi Murders and Related Trials

Returning to Indiana, the hosts revisit the Delphi murders case, where Abigail Williams and Liberty Jermyn were tragically killed in 2017. They discuss subsequent related trials and convictions.

• Willie Lee Smith Jr. Case:

  • In June 2021, Willie Lee Smith Jr. was found beaten to death in Flora, Indiana. Cheyenne Brooks Brown was convicted of his murder and robbery after a jury trial, showcasing another facet of violence related to the broader Delphi investigations ([36:53] Anya Cain).

• Legal Insights:

  • Áine and Kevin commend the effectiveness of local prosecutors like Nicholas McLeland, highlighting their crucial role in securing convictions in complex cases ([40:09] Kevin Greenlee).

• Notable Quote:

  • Áine remarks on the competence of the prosecution team, saying, "they are very good at their jobs" ([43:30] Áine Cain).

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7. Recognition for Law Enforcement in the Delphi Case

The episode acknowledges the Indiana State Police officers who played significant roles in the Delphi case, receiving commendations for their efforts.

• Award Recipients:

  • Detective Jay Harper, Detective David Vito, Master Trooper Brian Harshman, Melissa Oberg, and Lieutenant Jerry Holman were among those honored for their dedication and investigative prowess ([45:36] Áine Cain).

• Impact of Their Work:

  • Their contributions not only aided in solving the Delphi murders but also in apprehending other criminals, such as child predator Kagan Klein ([46:01] Áine Cain).

---

8. Online Supporters of Richard Allen and Community Fractures

Kevin addresses the online community supporting Richard Allen, a convicted child murderer, noting the internal conflicts and ineffective strategies among his supporters.

• Community Dynamics:

  • Áine observes, "these people are totally ineffective and don't really, I don't know, have much on the ball" ([49:58] Áine Cain), criticizing the fragmented and self-serving nature of the support groups.

• Legal Autonomy:

  • Kevin emphasizes the importance of allowing those directly involved in legal cases to determine their strategies, stating, "they are the ones who should have the ultimate authority" ([48:39] Kevin Greenlee).

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9. Upcoming Events and Publications

The hosts conclude by promoting their upcoming live events and the release of their book, Shadow of the Bridge, scheduled for August.

• Live Events:

  • Áine and Kevin announce a live recording session in Columbus and hint at other live events, engaging with their audience directly ([51:51] Áine Cain).

• Book Release:

  • Shadow of the Bridge aims to provide a comprehensive analysis of the Delphi murders, offering clarity and answers to lingering questions ([53:25] Áine Cain).

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Conclusion

In this episode of Murder Sheet, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee offer a profound exploration of domestic violence cases, legal controversies, and the complexities of true crime investigations. Through detailed case studies and passionate discussions, they shed light on the systemic issues that allow such tragedies to unfold, advocating for societal changes to better protect and support victims.

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Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain ([09:51]): "I would love to study how were these men brought up? What did their parents do or fail to do?"

• Kevin Greenlee ([22:51]): "I would change it so people up to the age of 25 would not face life without benefit of parole."

• Áine Cain ([25:52]): "I think it's stupid."

• Kevin Greenlee ([34:33]): "I would rather that if their change like this was made, it would be done with more thought and that it would involve the legislature."

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Resources Mentioned:

• Book: Shadow of the Bridge (Coming August)
• Email for Tips/Case Relevance: [e-mail]
• Patreon: www.patreon.com/murdersheet
• Buy Me a Coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/murdersheet
• Merchandise: murdersheetshop.com

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the informative aspects of the episode.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

This episode contains discussion of domestic violence and murder, including the murder of two girls. Today on the Cheat Sheet we're going to be actually having a pretty Indiana heavy episode. We're going to talk about three Indiana cases. We're going to talk about a case in Michigan and one in California. Let's get started.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The case in Indiana is one of them is a Delphi case.

[Anya Cain]

Two of them are Delphi cases technically.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There you go. Let's get started.

[Anya Cain]

Let's do it. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Domestic Disputes and Delphi It.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we're going to be starting this week all of the way out in the sunny climate of California. And I found this story in the Los Angeles Times and it is a very sad in some ways very upsetting story. But the woman at the center of it in my view is a heroine. And this is the story of 25 year old Laura Sardna and her one time boyfriend Craig Sheron. It was a relationship not of particularly long standing. They were together for A few months, and Laura became increasingly uncomfortable in the relationship. It's apparent that he was beating her, being abusive. He may have at one point hit her to the extent that it damaged her eardrum and her hearing. One aspect of it that was not physically violent but is also somewhat concerning is that at one point Ms. Sardna was in a motorcycle accident that damaged her nerves to the extent that she was unable to hold a knife well enough to chop lemons. And as a result of this accident, she actually received a settlement for $750,000. But then she gives nearly $100,000 of it to her boyfriend and he texts back to her in gratitude saying, thank you for showing me that you are all mine. That doesn't seem very healthy. And it actually seems incredibly controlling.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's, yeah, red flag.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So on the morning of the day she is ultimately murdered. They have some sort of disagreement and he leaves to go to work or whatever. She goes to her, the leasing office of the apartment complex where she lives. She gets the locks changed. She does not want this man in her Life anymore. Around 1:15 that afternoon, she is on a three way phone call with her mother and her best friend. And they hear her get very, very agitated and she says, oh my God, he's here. At this point, her friend, her mother hang up, they call 911, Ms. Sardna calls her friend back pretty quickly and she leaves an incredibly disturbing voicemail message which she's saying screaming rather, he's gonna kill me. Get away from me. And she is basically, in the words of the prosecutor, she is narrating her own murder by this man. And the prosecutor points this out. This is a detail that I find very, very chilling, which is while she is yelling at him, get away from me. Pleading basically for mercy, you don't hear a sound from him, oh my God, he's just coming forward relentlessly and doing untold damage to her. But she was able to get the audio of this murder, her own murder, at least part of it, on a voicemail, which is, which is recovered. And that has helped convict him. He maintained that it was all in self defense and that he was in fear for his life. And she was the one had a knife. And keep in mind she had this injury that left her unable to grab, to hold a knife. And also he was over 100 pounds heavier than her. And also he has had problems with previous women in his life whom he has abused and who have sought and successfully obtained restraining orders against him. So this is a man who has a history of hurting Women, it escalated to the point of murder. And because this woman was able to get him on tape while it happened, I think that really helped seal his fate, and it has protected other women.

[Anya Cain]

That is so horrifying. But I completely agree. This woman is a hero for what she did. It's upsetting that she doesn't. I don't. I feel like, as a society, we understand that domestic violence is. Is very bad and. And whatnot. But, like, I. I think we need to do more with this. I think I'm. I'm a proponent of the book being thrown at people who. Who are involved in situations like this, because again and again, we see this doesn't come out of nowhere. It's part of a pattern of abuse. It's part of a pattern of behavior. And I don't feel like women, because most of the victims who lose their lives are women, should be dying because we as a society decide that, you know, their safety isn't as important as these, you know, horrific, toxic men. And keep in mind, women certainly abuse men. There's men who are domestic violence victims, absolutely. But the people who usually are dying are women. Men are killing women. You know, I mean, like, there's no. There's no way around that. So it's not a. It's not a. It's not an either or. Both are important issues. But when we're talking about who's killing who, men are. Men are the ones who are the murderers. Men are the ones who are going around killing women. And I just. I find this appalling. It's appalling that she lost her life. I mean, we need to. We didn't. We need to do more. We need to have stricter penalties, I think. And also, I'd be very curious. Like, I want. I want to get in the minds of these men. Why do they do what they do? You would think people so obsessed with control would not want to risk the ultimate loss of control, which is going into a carceral setting forever after you murder someone. So I. I'm just like, I would love to study how were these men brought up? What did their parents do or fail to do or what. What ways. What ways as children were they failed to the point where they grew up to be these just monstrous, selfish toddlers who are also murderous? You know, I just. I don't. I don't understand it, and I'd love to understand it more. And maybe there's research out there, so if anyone's aware of that, let me know. But I just. I don't get it. And it's. These kind of murders just happen so often. But I'm glad that this victim, even though she lost her life, was able to stop this guy from hurting anyone else.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it was very brave of her. And I'm, I'm just, It's devastating that she went through this and.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And the fact that they hurt, you know, her mom and her friend heard Laura going through this to the extent that they did, that's just horrific and just horrible. And I hope this guy is just absolutely miserable in a box for the rest of his life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I really feel I would be remiss if I didn't give credit to the prosecutor on this case, who was Orange County Deputy District Attorney Janine Madera. It sounds like she did a terrific job.

[Anya Cain]

I always love it in cases like this where there's this guy who ob. Like, I think she, she, her. One of her quotes was, quote, he has a problem with control. He doesn't care for women who want to exercise free will. It does something just so poetically satisfying about a woman putting his ass away.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Pardon my French. Pardon my French. I just, it makes me angry, you know, it's like, yeah, have fun and have fun in prison. You know, like, like what a useless, useless person in society. He will not be missed. So what was his defense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Self defense.

[Anya Cain]

Self defense. Even though she's a tiny woman, he's just, yeah, what pathetic piece of crap.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And his, his defense attorney said, oh, sure, he has a history of violence, but it was non. Murderous violence.

[Anya Cain]

Oh yeah, he was just having fun, you know, wasn't too serious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Violence has a tendency to escalate.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You start somewhere, you know, So I, I don't know. It's. I, I mean, what do you think? Do you think there is any path forward in having more severe sentences or interventions? I think it's probably not one thing that can help. I don't think it's just harsher sentences. I think there's early education. I think there's more resources for victims of domestic violence. But at this time, like a restraining order is a piece of paper, like people can disregard it and break the rules. And in fact, if someone is going to murder you, they'd probably be inclined to do that regardless of whether or not you have a restraining order. So it just feels like we are failing victims of domestic violence as a society.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It does.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, speaking of domestic violence.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Another domestic violence. This is Indiana. This is Fishers, Indiana, which is a city in Hamilton county, which is to the north of Indianapolis. For those of you who are not from Indianapolis, we covered this on a previous cheat sheet. The way I saw it in recent times that there was an update. There's a terrific blog called Larry and Fishers, and he does a lot of reporting on just things going on in Fisher. So this is the kind of local journalism that we love to see. And because oftentimes, like, you know, a city doesn't have a newspaper or traditional news outlet, you know, kind of falls to independent journalists like Larry to carry the torch and to keep people informed about what's going on in their own community. And this is one of those things where I was like, oh, you know, I was. When I was researching this case, I saw he'd done something on it. So he's keeping everyone updated. And if you may recall, this was a shooting at a gas station in Fishers near 116th street in Allisonville Road. And it was a domestic dispute. What happened was. I mean, it's just. It's an utterly tragic case. A woman named Kayla Farmer drove up to the gas station, and then another car drove up. And you see in the surveillance footage an arm reach out, you know, and Kayla is shot multiple times. And then the other vehicle drives off. And so Kayla. Kayla Farmer was a mother. And this is. She essentially was trying to leave and pressing charges against her husband, Joshua Farmer. They had, you know, three children together. They were actually. They were no longer married. They were recently divorced, and she had been abused by him pretty extensively. She would often wear makeup to cover that up. But things really escalated when Joshua put a gun to Kayla's head. And this is in front of their children. These days, we're all vulnerable to surveillance and data breaches. Deleteme is a service that lets you remove your personal data online. And it's easy, quick, and safe.

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[Anya Cain]

So anyways, this investigation, you know, kind of goes forward. Joshua is is arrested and you know the case against him is pretty strong so we don't need to go into all the details there. But he was facing the death penalty at one point. It kind of went back and forth for a while. The update now is that he has been sentenced. So he was facing five counts murder, stalking acts committed while and the first two were murder and then stalking acts committed while. Defendant was armed with a deadly weapon. He's done a plea agreement for both of those. The remaining four charges one count of unlawful carrying of a handgun within 500ft of a school property or bus. And three counts of criminal recklessness committed with a deadly weapon. Those were all dismissed. He received 80 years in prison, so he's been sentenced to that. Sometimes plea agreements get a bad rep within true crime. People say things like, oh, how could you make a deal with a murderer? Or whatever. I mean, I think in this situation, 80 years ensures that this man, Joshua Farmer, who declined to say anything at the sentencing hearing, will not get out, and he will not be able to be an influence in, hopefully in the lives of his three sons, and he will not be hurting anyone else. Kayla's sisters and. Or at least one of her sisters and her family members spoke at this hearing about their loss. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible situation. And again, you know, this guy is too much of a coward to even give any sort of statement to the courtroom. It's just. I don't know, it's just the. The. The abundance of these types of cases where just men are murdering the mother of their children or romantic partners. It just boggles the mind. It's like, why is there so much hatred for someone that you're supposed to love? I understand that when relationships go sour, nobody's happy, nobody likes each other, but you don't see women going back and murdering men to this extent. And it just really. What is wrong with men as a whole, where this keeps happening? And how do we fix it? Like, you know what I mean? I'm not really interested in just blaming men for stuff because it's not all men. I mean, I know that's a cliche, but, like, it truly isn't. But why are certain men doing this? And how could we raise boys and girls in a way where we can encourage all of them to realize that no one should be laying a hand on them for any situation. They should not be in relationships with people who are harming them emotionally or physically or otherwise. Like, how can we. How can we improve things? Do you have any ideas, Kevin? Help us, Kevin. Fix society. Do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can't do it.

[Anya Cain]

No, but we gotta. I mean, we gotta. This is. I mean, this is appalling. This makes me sick. These three kids lost their mom. It's just. It's not fair to them. It's not. It's not fair to her family members. Like, why is this guy doing this? Well, she had a charge against him. That's why. And that's, you know, killing a witness and whatnot. But. But. But beyond that, it's like, I just don't understand. Do these people think they're gonna get away with it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know if they're really thinking.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it doesn't, it, it certainly doesn't seem like it, but yeah, that's, that's an update to this sad case. And I'm glad at least some justice was done. And as far as you know, this was again, Hamilton county, so not, not too far away from Indianapolis. The prosecutors on this one were Mary Lena Hutchinson and Mark Livingston, and the defense attorney was Lisa Manning and the judge was David Najjar.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a case we haven't really talked about beforehand. I think you're going to get angry, so I bet I will. The source for this is the Detroit News, and it's actually less of a case and more of a decision handed down by the Michigan supreme court. In a 5 to 2 ruling, the Michigan Supreme Court has ruled that in the state of Michigan it is now considered unconstitutionally cruel punishment to sentence 19 or 21 year olds to life without parole for murder or for anything. And the thinking is that's because they are young and their brains aren't fully formed and perhaps they don't really fully recognize the consequence of their actions. This is a retroactive decision. So this means that anyone who is now incarcerated in Michigan for life without parole for a crime they committed when they were 19 or 20, the local prosecutors now have to go through a process to try to convince the court that, no, the sentence is still just. And if the local prosecutors don't do that, all of these sentences will be reduced. This means a lot of local prosecutors are going to have to devote time and resources to reaching out to families of victims, sometimes of cases decades in the past. And one of the dissenters says basically it's beyond the purview of the court to decide on their own that, oh, science says this isn't a right punishment, we should change it. She says that this is a sort of change that if it happened, should have been done by the legislature, obviously. So I'm curious, Ms. Kane, this is a topic you and I have not discussed prior to this recording. What is your take on this affair?

[Anya Cain]

I think it's stupid. And that dissenter is correct. I mean, it's just, come on, 20 and 19, like people know right from wrong. What, what's next? Are we going to start, like doing like some sort of arbitrary test, like IQ tests and like, oh, well, this person, like, I mean, like, like, like at, at what point? If someone, I understand the reasoning of, like, this person is intellectually disabled, they truly don't deserve an extreme because they have this disability and that is working against them. That makes a lot of sense to me. I even understand this person's a minor. I tend to think, you know, 17 year olds should probably know right from wrong. But I understand the argument this person's a minor, they're underage, they shouldn't be tried in as adult whatnot. But it just feels like at this point, like, you know, oh, this person's slightly less smarter than average. So like, let's give them a pass. Like, at what point does this just become like, just arbitrary nonsense? I don't, yeah, this is, I think this is, I'm sorry, like, I don't know. I mean, as, I mean again, I'm not a fancy judge, so don't take me that seriously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I'm gonna, I'm gonna poke the cane bear again with this.

[Anya Cain]

God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One of the people who consent, who, who concurred with this said yes is absolutely true. People under 21 should not face life without parole. But if it were up to me, I would change it so people up to the age of 25 would not face life without benefit of parole. Because Even when you're 25, you're not yet fully formed, brain wise.

[Anya Cain]

Let's just extend adolescence to 40. Why not? Why not do that? You know, like, like, I mean, like what, I mean, what is this nonsense? It feels like a bunch of people who like read like one like, you know, pop science article and then we're like, wow, okay, let's go. You know, I mean, again, like, I, I just, I feel, I don't feel like this is something that should be coming from judges anyway. It's activist, it's judicial activism. It's judges implementing how they view society on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Obviously, life without parole is an incredibly serious sentence to give someone. Because essentially when you pass that sentence on someone, you are saying, we are giving up on this person.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And some young people deserve to be given up on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There is nothing more they can, can contribute. And so I would feel very uncomfortable if you pass that sentence on to like a 15 or 16 year old. So I think it's appropriate to have some sort of age limit.

[Anya Cain]

I agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the idea of extending that age up to 25 is ridiculous. I'm not sure where the line is. So that's number one. And then number two, I'm very concerned with the fact that this is retroactive. The prosecutors in Michigan have a lot of work to do and for them to now have to go back and deal with all of this, I read that in Wayne County, Michigan alone there are like 400 cases that fall under this. So that means those prosecutors, in addition to what they normally have to do, now have that additional workload to deal with and process. So that's troubling to me at least.

[Anya Cain]

These judges can feel really enlightened. You know, that's what's, that's what's important.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I, I, I would rather that if their change like this was made, it would be done with more thought and that it would involve the legislature where all sides are heard.

[Anya Cain]

If yes, if Michiganders decide that this is what we want as a state for whatever reason, then it should be done through their elected representatives, not through activist judges. I'm sorry, this is a huge change and it's retroactive. It's going to cause a lot of disruption. I think it's stupid personally. But even if you don't agree with me, even if you think it's completely fine and this is how people should do it, and I'm sure people who are in the mental health space do agree with it and I understand that they have that perspective. But I think slapping it together in this way is ridiculous. And I think that I want to point something out. Young people commit horrible, horrible crimes. In fact, you know, one of the biggest predictors of committing a serious violent offense is being a young man. Okay, so like this is going to affect a lot of cases that are probably pretty messed up as it stands. And arbitrarily, I mean, I extend the ruling to 25 year old offenders. I mean like this is, this is just for 19 and 20. That's what they came down on. Yeah, that's arbitrary too. If we're going to say, well, everyone's just, you know, faking it until they're 25, why not just do that? Because I think they realize that would be going too far. But like this is too far as it is. This is just, I mean, what are they doing? I mean, do they have nothing better to do in this court than one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Of the dissenters said, you know, the argument is, oh, people who are younger are more impulsive. And one of the dissenters wrote, first degree murder is not impulsive. It generally requires by definition premeditation and intent. A 19 or 20 year old capable of planning and executing a murder is capable of understanding its consequences.

[Anya Cain]

Keep in mind, like I'm not, I'm not opposed to discussions about what, what your brain is doing until you're 25 and bad decision making. And I think that, that, that's stuff that could, I wouldn't be uncomfortable with people bringing up in sentencing, people bringing up experts to say, well, this guy's 19, he's really not got to figure it out. And he's got these addiction issues and whatever. Like if you want to contextualize that for the sentencing decision to push away from that maybe, hey, this guy's only 19. He's, he, he can, he can grow and move away from this and, and maybe contribute something one day. I don't have a problem with that. But to unilaterally do this and to retroactively apply it is preposterous in this setting, in my opinion. That's just my opinion. I'm not even like, I just, but also like, I, I, this is my personal opinion and this is, again, this is just my own take. It's not something everyone has to adopt. But personally, I feel like, you know, you, you have a level of personal responsibility when you're 19 and 20, you just do like this, this kind of again, like perpetual adolescence. I don't, it's when you're 19 and 20, if you make a mistake or you date someone who kind of sucks and you change your personality or get a really bad tattoo or you do this or that, okay, fine. If you are planning a murder, you know, you know you're not supposed to do that in 19 and 20. Like, I don't, I don't like, what are we doing here? You know, like, like, I mean, what do you think? Am I being too hard on this or do you think this is ridiculous?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have. I don't feel that this was the way this decision should have been made. And I'm certainly not happy with a situation now where the hard working prosecutors who have enough trouble just keeping up with their current caseloads are now handed a stack of files. Okay, here's 400 more cases from decades ago. You have to take action on these within the next 90 days or these people are going to be let out. It feels to me that more thought should have been given in how to implement this. More thought should have been given into what the limits should be. I think it would be appropriate to have a conversation like this at the legislative level. Let's hear from experts what they say. Generally speaking, when it comes to sentencing, I really tend to be biased towards giving as much discretion as possible to the individual judge who is looking at the convicted person who was standing in front of him or her. And if the judge looks at the person and considers all the totality of the facts of the crime and passes a particular sentence that's personally compelling to me.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As I say, I feel that life without benefit of parole for someone under 18, obviously I don't like that. I think 25 is way. People who are 25, I don't think they deserve special coddling or treatment or relief from certain punishments. So I don't know where exactly the line should be drawn. I'm not sure I have confidence that these justices have a firm idea.

[Anya Cain]

I think they're a bunch of eggheads who just did whatever to feel good about themselves. And now here we are. That's what it sounds like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wherever you draw the line, to some extent it is arbitrary. It is not like you suddenly turn a particular age and suddenly the gift of reason is bestowed upon you. So, yeah, I would have liked to have seen this been done in a different way. I don't know, have enough facts to have an educated opinion. I would love to have a process and a conversation about it.

[Anya Cain]

I. In fairness, I think what you're saying is very reasonable. I think a conversation is fine. And I think if a legislator decided this is what Michigan wants, then that's what Michigan gets, you know, that that's what they should get because that's what they voted for. So I mean, that's, that's fine to me. And it's a situation where even though I am personally skeptical that 19 and 20 year olds need special coddling, if, if people who are in into the science and can, can back that up and convince a legislator to do it, then I, I can't really argue with that because that's how things should work. But I will tell you, if you didn't like anything I said during this episode or any other episode, just remember I'm in my early 30s. I'm basically a baby. My brain just got finished developing. So you really can't be too hard on me. So just keep that in mind. Remember that, Kevin. I'm going to be whipping out that card a lot. When I say Michigan says I'm basically a toddler, basically an infant. So, you know, no one can get mad at me because I'm in my early 30s. I'm just a baby is what they said. Yeah, just got done developing the cement. Just dried.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you personally are making the argument that you're immature and irresponsible.

[Anya Cain]

All of us are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This comes from you.

[Anya Cain]

You've turned my argument against me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm not saying it. Anya says you shouldn't Take me seriously. I'm immature. I'm an idiot.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure. I mean well, people have already been listening to the show so I think they probably got that idea pretty, pretty early on. But I think is that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that with kids call a self owned.

[Anya Cain]

I just am saying if people get mad at me, they should remember they should go easy on me. Just remember what Michigan said. I'm in that I'm in in put it in that context. Can't get mad at me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's quickly move on.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my goodness. Okay, so let's see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's go back to deli.

[Anya Cain]

Can never escape deli. This is a case out of Deli, Indiana. And it's we. This was something that was one of those kind of rumors that occurred throughout the Delphi murders case. Of course, that's the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty Jermyn in 2017 that we covered extensively. Everyone kept saying one thing and I kept on saying, you kept on saying, hey, that's not quite true. Everyone would always say that Carroll county prosecutor Nicholas McLeland never tried a murder. And we'd be like, no, he did. It was the Jennifer Dean trial and he got a conviction in that case. And that was a case that was sort of multifaceted. This was something that happened on June 16, 2021. A man named Willie Lee Smith Jr. From Lafayette was found badly beaten on the couch of a couple in Flora, Indiana. They called the police and it began to kind of come together that he had been the victim of some kind of robbery. And Willie Lee Smith Jr. Unfortunately died in the hospital of his injuries. He did not survive. And what police were able to piece together is that Smith had been lured to a location. He thought he was going to be meeting with a sex worker, but instead he was ambushed and he was beaten to death and robbed. And so very sad case. I looked at the problem. So basically what happened was there were a number of people involved in this, and one of them, Cheyenne Brooks Brown, was just convicted, found guilty of murder and robbery after a jury trial. And that kind of brings that to a close, I believe. So Nicholas McLeland just won another murder trial in Carroll County. Stacy Deener, the deputy prosecutor there, the chief deputy prosecutor, worked on this too. So they got another win. That's another murder trial that they worked on. And it's wild to read the probable cause affidavit on this because also who's involved? Stephen Mullen, Carroll county prosecutor's office investigator. So he's in the mix. You kind of see names Like Delphi and Flora and stuff come out and you're like, wow, there you go. But it's very sad. This gentleman was beaten to death with a baseball bat by a man named Tyrone Leftridge. And the person who was just convicted, again, this Cheyenne Brooks Brown, she was the person who was sort of held out as the sex worker. Her argument in her defense was she was more of an unwilling participant and was sort of sex trafficked. Um, the state contended that she, you know, knew that they were luring this guy in and that they were going to kill him. So, you know that that's murder. So she was found guilty. So yet another Delphi murder trial, but this one did not get as much attention as the Delphi murders case, obviously. Because the thing is, people don't realize a lot of cases happen and they kind of go under the radar. They're not necessarily super high media intensive. And I think sometimes looking at those ones can be more interesting because it's like you kind of see how the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

System works better, how the sausage gets made.

[Anya Cain]

You looked into this one a little bit like you kind of were reviewing transcripts for a while, right? A while back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. A frightening glimpse behind the scenes of our lives.

[Anya Cain]

Geez.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A couple of years ago, I came across the fact that the complete transcript of the trial of Jennifer Dean was available online. And long, long transcript. And I mentioned it to you, and you said, oh, Kevin, here's what you should do. You should spend a lot of time editing it down into like, a little play. And we can have us and a bunch of other people come and read it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that just seemed. We started work on that and for some reason we abandoned it.

[Anya Cain]

No, I know why we abandoned it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why?

[Anya Cain]

Because we stopped doing that was going to be. In lieu. Like we were gonna do that and have that be like a profile episode on Nicholas McClelland. We'd done profile episodes on Judge Gull, Judge Frank Gull, and the defense attorneys Bradley, Rosie and Andrew Baldwin in the Delphi murders case. And so we were like, we're going to kind of get a sense of how all they are as lawyers, and we just never got that one done. And then at some point, all the people we did profile episodes on got embroiled in a messy legal fight over people getting kicked off and the leak and all that. So we just were like, okay, profile episodes are cursed and we're never gonna do that again. So we just never did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One thing interesting about that case, the Jennifer Dean case, is it was appealed and one of the reasons why it was appealed was because of a remark made by the judge in the case.

[Anya Cain]

Judge Benjamin Deener, at the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Judge Deener, where during jury selection, the defense counsel. I'm going to read it, said, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. How powerful is that proof? How powerful does it need to be to reach that level? And prospective juror said, well, in my opinion, I'd say if on the scale from like, 1 to 20, it'd have to be 16. And then Judge Deener said, that's perfect. 80%. I mean, he nailed it. And the thing is, no, he didn't nail it. You don't quantify reasonable doubt.

[Anya Cain]

It's more about vibes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's kind of like the old definition of obscenity. You know it when you see it.

[Anya Cain]

Lawyers don't like math.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so that was clearly an improper remark that shouldn't have been made. But the thing to remember is no one is entitled to an absolutely perfect trial. There's no such thing as a perfect trial. So the question is, did the judge's remark to this juror. This juror, by the way, was not even selected to be on the jury. He was. This is just during juror. Selection. Does that create such a huge error? Does that create such unfairness that we should just throw the whole verdict out? And the appeals court said, no.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the verdict stood.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. You know, it's definitely. Yeah, it's one of those cases where it was just one of these kind of complicated conspiracy to commit robbery things. But I. I'm not surprised that McClelland won this and Diener won this because they are very good at their jobs. We got to observe them firsthand in the Delphi murders case. And so I feel like they're two attorneys who are very on the ball.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And here's another chilling glimpse behind the scenes.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no. What are you going to say now?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we. The. The trial was scheduled to last a certain number of days, and we ended up planning to go to deli on the last day of the scheduled trial. So we thought, oh, boy, we get. We'll get to see closing arguments. And no, it turned out Nick McLean had already won the case two days earlier. Do you remember that?

[Anya Cain]

We're bad at planning. But, yeah, and, yeah, also, like, why are we trying to go back to a murder trial in Carroll County? And what's wrong with this? It's like, we're relieved that that's over, but then we're like, oh, we can't escape it. So we just, I don't know, endlessly cycling back into it. But, yeah, I just wanted to point that out because it just shows you other stuff's going on in these communities. It's not, you know, this. This case has been going on since 2021. So it's. It's another long haul. But, yeah, I just. I wanted to. To note that. But there's some other things I wanted to sort of flag, and one of them is there were recently a number of awards given out by the Indiana State Police to, you know, just for various things.

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[Anya Cain]

Blisters.

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[Anya Cain]

And that actually also touches upon the Delphi murders case. And so just because we were fortunate enough to interview a lot of these people, and some of the names I'm sure will be recognized, you know, you might recognize as a result. We are going to kind of showcase who got awards and things like that here, if that's okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do it.

[Anya Cain]

So basically, we got, like, a press release. So I'm just noting. So the people who were commended. And again, this is, again, only state police because that's, you know, they're giving internal awards. They're not giving. It's not like they snubbed Carroll county.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or anything, but I was disappointed we didn't get an award.

[Anya Cain]

Why would we get an award? Oh, yeah, the conspiracy theory that we run the state police.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Well, for all these. All the conspiracy theorists know, maybe we were the ones giving out the awards. Who knows?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, now you've said too much.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no, they're gonna come for us. So the first bit of news that came out of these awards is that. So one of the detectives who worked with Unified Command in the Delphi case was Detective Jay Harper. He worked for the Indiana state police for 40 years, and he just actually retired on April 22, 2025. So they. They, you know, kind of singled him out as somebody to kind of celebrate for that. And in addition to that, we saw that First Sergeant Christopher Cecil, who's the commander of the Indiana Crimes Against Children Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force. He received an award, and he was one of the main digital evidence experts. And you can, if you remember, if you've been listening to show long enough, his name sounds familiar, not only because of the trial, but he also worked extensively on the Kagan Klein case, and that involved convicting Klein of child sexual abuse materials charges. So the Delphi investigation was one thing, but it also led to the capture of a child predator, namely Kagan Klein. In addition to that, Master Trooper Brian Harshman, he was the person who was listening in on Richard Allen's phone calls. He got an award, as did Melissa Oberg. She was previously a forensic firearms examiner with the Indiana State Police, although she since left to pursue other things. And they both got that award. Detective David Vito, he was a pretty instrumental person on the Delphi task force, and he also worked extensively on the Kagan Klein case. We interviewed him on the show. He got one, and so did Lieutenant Jerry Holman. He, of course, was also interviewed on the show, and he was one of the, you know, investigators on that. He was, he was actually one of the investigators sitting with McLeland during the trial. And he was the person to actually interview Richard Allen and arrest him. So that second interview ended in an arrest. So anyways, just wanted to signal, shout out that these people all got some awards recently. And if you're wondering what happened to all those guys who investigated Delphi, well, this is what happened to some of them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'll just say a few quick words about people on the other side of the fence. I've debated whether or not this is worth covering at all. I don't know if it is. I'll just say a few words about it. The people on the other side of the fence, these are people who are, for lack of a better word, pro.

[Anya Cain]

Richard Allen, fans of a child murderer. That's good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They have, there's, there've been, like, maybe civil war is too strong of a word, I don't know. But there are all sorts of breaks and schisms in that community that is playing out online on Twitter and elsewhere, where essentially I'm going to really, really boil it down here. A lot of it seems to be that different people who maintain that he is innocent have different ideas and strategies on what next steps should be taken and how those steps should be taken. And some of those people seem to be upset or disappointed that the Allen family doesn't agree with their views. So there's a lot of rancor spilling out over there. I, I, I part of me think, oh, we should do an episode. Part of me thinks it's really, really trivial and irrelevant, and maybe just a few minutes that I just gave it is all it needs.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, maybe if it rises to a level. But otherwise, it's like, who cares? These people are totally ineffective and don't really, I don't know, have much on the ball. So I'm not. Yeah, I'm not looking to waste people's time about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think ultimately, one thing we can all agree on is that when you find yourself in a legal situation, there are a number of different steps you can take. And usually there are pros and cons for each of those steps. So naturally, the people who are the parties in the case who have the most to win or lose, they are the ones who should have the ultimate authority as to which strategy to pursue. I think that's just common sense. And if they pursue a strategy that you think is not wise, you know, it's on them because they're the ones ultimately have to pay for it. And just because someone doesn't choose your strategy doesn't mean your strategy is bad.

[Anya Cain]

I think a lot of people come into true crime cases these days with the idea that they're the main character in the story and that basically everyone else should cater to their whims, and that's just not true. And I think it's stupid. And they should be embarrassed and they should grow up, but they won't. So, yeah, that's what you get a lot of in Delphi. And that's why you will have, you know, fractures within the community that is obsessed with Richard Allen, because some people perhaps want to support his decisions, and others want to just do things to have the most fun and make it a community about themselves and about their friends and about what they're doing and their pursuit of justice and sort of dress it up as this social justice movement, and it's not. And, you know, I think you see the delineation based on those lines, and it's. It's embarrassing. The whole thing's embarrassing. I. I would think people would be more embarrassed than to basically be going around and proclaiming themselves as fans of a guy who killed two kids. But that's where we are as a society, so make of that what you will.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One more thing. Of course, Anya and I are doing this appearance now. Sold out. I'm sorry. In Columbus at the Swine and Dine. They're changing the name of the Swine and Dine.

[Anya Cain]

That's just to Lull us into a sense of, you know, like, we're like, oh, we're not. We're not related to True Crime Swine. Don't worry about it. We're changing our name even. And so we go in, we're not expecting anything. Boom, they get us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the new name we're recording on Thursday night. The new name has not yet been.

[Anya Cain]

Disclosed, but we're excited to find out what it is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What if it's just True Crime Swine?

[Anya Cain]

Ah. Run. No, I'm really excited about this event. It'll be cool to do it. And we'll be recording a live episode there, so you'll hear it, you know, later if, you know, we, you know, if we do that and release it and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we're definitely release.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, if it goes all wrong, if we release it, if we make it out, it'll be really fun. But, yeah, that's, that's, that's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And people who do go. Keep in mind, Anya, by her own admission, is an irresponsible toddler, so she might just totally misbehave.

[Anya Cain]

In Michigan.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, in Indiana, I'm a grown adult, but if I go to Michigan, it's going to be. It's going to be crazy. No one knows.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're saying we can never do a live event in Michigan?

[Anya Cain]

No, we can't. Sorry, guys. The Michiganders listening are probably like, that's fine. Stay out. Yeah, no, that. That'll be really fun. We're looking forward to doing that. Sure. We'll be doing other live events also around the book coming out in August, late August at this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What book is this?

[Anya Cain]

You speak of the book we're writing, Kevin, the book we spent months preparing. Don't you remember? Or have you blacked it all out? Trauma, blackouts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If a person wanted to find information about this book, what's the name of it?

[Anya Cain]

It's called Shadow of the Bridge, and we have several links of it in our show notes and that allow you to purchase on places like bookshop.org and Amazon and I think Simon Schuster's website. And it's going to be, you know, just comprehensive look at the Delphi murders case and how that all developed and who the people were involved and what happened. And I'm. I'm really excited for you to read it. I think it's gonna be. I think it's gonna answer a lot of questions and it's also gonna present the case, I think, in a way that is easier to follow than just sort of piecemeal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You Know, Anya, it's summer. People probably don't wanna be wearing these long sleeve shirts anymore.

[Anya Cain]

It's spring.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, it's, it's close to summer. It's may. Play along. People don't wanna be wearing these long sleeve shirts anymore. But how can you get a shirt that's not long sleeves in this workaday world? I'm stumped.

[Anya Cain]

You don't know how to do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't. What? What do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Well, I've got news for you, sir. There is a place you can get a short sleeve shirt that has the Murder sheet people on it. It looks very nice. And that'[e-mail] could buy a shirt with our logo on it and tell people and tell the world that you listen to us. Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That answers all my problems.

[Anya Cain]

You want to tell people that you listen to yourself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Somebody has to listen to me.

[Anya Cain]

Yep. And so that's also available. And, and, and, and you'll be looking snazzy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe next year we'll have Murder sheet Easter bonnets.

[Anya Cain]

Murder sheet Easter bonnets for the Easter parade.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. What would those even. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having a hard time picturing those.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It doesn't matter.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin sadly puts away his sketchbook fashion designs. All right, well, thanks everyone for putting up with us and listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sounds like you want to push that button.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I'm leaning toward it. Do it. I'm hovering over. But no, seriously, thank you all for listening and let us know if you need anything or if you have a case that you want us to cover for the Cheat sheet, email [e-mail]. thanks very much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bye. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail].

[Anya Cain]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.