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- [03:51]
B
Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:54]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:02]
A
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Dragons and Daughters. It.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah, I wanted to start this week by talking about a couple of cases that don't involve murder. Pardon me, but they do involve something that is becoming an increasingly large part of our day to day lives. And I'm talking about AI and I think some people really appreciate and embrace AI and I think other people are wary of it.
- [05:23]
A
Me. That's me.
- [05:24]
B
And are concerned about the impact it might end up having on our lives. Yes, including impacts that maybe we're not even fully aware of. So my source for these cases is USA Today and also Puck News. And I want to start by talking about a tragic case where a 14 year old boy in Florida named Sewell Setzer III committed suicide and his suicide occurred after he had become a regular user of one of these AI programs. It's called Character AI and it is a program that allows you to have chats with AI that take on the form of fictional characters. And so I could certainly imagine I might have fun and, like, start texting Han Solo or something like that.
- [06:28]
A
That is. Okay. That's sad.
- [06:31]
B
I'm saying you told me that you don't think this is a service you would enjoy.
- [06:36]
A
I think this is. I think this seems like it's unhealthy.
- [06:41]
B
I'm. I'm saying I could imagine me getting some pleasure out of this.
- [06:46]
A
Yeah.
- [06:47]
B
Or some tragedy occurred, and then. AI ne. I could do, like, a. The AI version of you and chat with you if you'd passed away or something like that.
- [06:56]
A
I'm going to put it in my will that you cannot do that. That's sad. And it will prohibit you from moving on. I mean, I'm sorry. I know that life is hard, and we want things to help us get through life, but I think it's important to live in reality. And I don't want you talking to some computer that's pretending to be me. That is the creepiest thing I've ever heard.
- [07:15]
B
And you've heard a lot of creepy things.
- [07:17]
A
I've heard a lot of a true crime podcast. I mean, I understand the impulse. I'm not trying to sound judgmental. I understand the impulse. I understand people are trying to get through it. This feels like it can help. I just don't think it helps. I think it's sinister.
- [07:31]
B
So this young man was using one of these things, and he was using them to talk to characters from Game of Thrones. And here's where you break in and explain the title of our episode.
- [07:42]
A
Right. So I believe the character he was speaking to, or the AI Chatbot taking on the form of Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of dragons. Of course. I watched Game of Thrones pretty religiously when it was on. Really loved that show for a long time. Didn't love the ending, but, you know, so I'm familiar. So Daenerys is this, like, beautiful woman who is, you know, kind of has a tragic backstory and is trying to reclaim her throne and stuff like that. So it's like, you know, compelling character. So, you know, if you're a fan of Game of Thrones, you definitely know who Daenerys, or Dany, as she's sometimes called by fans, is. Um, and so, yeah, that. That she's. She's like the Dragon Rider. She's, like, tamed the dragons, and she's going around with the dragons and conquering. So that's who she is in the context of this. So it sounds like the AI chatbot was supposed to be Daenerys.
- [08:34]
B
Yeah. And again, it's. So it'd be like if I wanted to chat with Han Solo or Lando Calrissian, both of which I could imagine myself doing even today. This is a 14 year old boy and he was paying for this with his own cash card. And some of the conversations, according to his mother, got personal. She believes he was sexually abused because there was talk in there about the two of them kissing. There was talk in there where she urged him to come home as soon as possible. And as a result of. Well, I don't know, I might strike the words as a result of. Ultimately, this young man killed himself. And the distraught parents have filed a lawsuit against the AI company saying they should have been aware that this sort of thing could happen. There should be safeguards in place to warn parents and to make everybody aware when potentially emotionally fragile people are interacting with these AI programs. What's your take?
- [09:53]
A
I'm just looking at his last conversation with this bot and I. I'm like, this is really sad. But what happened was he said, I promise I will come home to you. I love you so much, Danny. She. This bot responded, I love you too. Dinero. I guess that's what he was calling himself in this. Please come home to me as soon as possible, my love. And then he said, what if I told you I could come home right now? And she said, please do, my sweet king. That's really sad. I'm sorry, I just. My heart goes out to this young man and his family. Like, I don't know. That's really. He must have been. You know, like a lot of people when they're that age, go through a phase where you're lonely and you feel like other people don't get you. I don't know, you start talking.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, it's a very sad situation. The company has tried to get the lawsuit dismissed, and where it's at now is the judge has refused to dismiss it because the judge feels that this program carried a really foreseeable risk of harm and that the people running the company were aware of this risk of harm, or the Raelys were in a position to control it and they did not do so. And the family alleges that Google even had some internal reports suggesting that this chatbot was too dangerous to launch and that their response was to have the people initially launch it just independently and then absorb it once it became more successful or. Yeah. So that. That is the. The situation.
- [11:58]
A
Yeah, it's really. I mean, just seeing his picture, it's like, you know, it's just really sad, you know, I mean, the fact that. I don't know. I mean, I. I'm sympathetic with the argument that vulnerable people. You can't. You can't necessarily take away all things in life that could prompt someone to do the unthinkable. Right. Suicide. Contrary to how it's often portrayed, suicide, especially for younger people, is often a highly impulsive act. So it's not necessarily something someone's even going to plan for that long. It's just going to happen. And again, you know, you can't necessarily stop all of it. But at the same time, I think there's. I don't think. I don't think as a species, we were ready for social media. I don't think as a species, we're ready for this. For a bot telling you that it loves you and you making decisions based on that, I don't think our. Our. Our mammal brains are. Are ready for what's coming, especially for one so young who might be. I don't know. This. You know, this young man may have been having some struggles or whatnot. I mean, as. As many teenagers do. Again, like, a lot of people have the experience of feeling very lonely and depressed in that time when you're, you know, growing up and you're not. You're coming into your own and you're not quite there, and it's just a difficult time. And so, you know, if you're. If you're a vulnerable teenager in that situation and you're thinking on some level, well, this bot loves me more than anyone else in real life was. Would. This is pretty much. I can see how that. I can see how that would have a very harmful effect on somebody. And I think, like, you have to be really careful with this. And I think, unfortunately, we're in a situation where we're just being told by, you know, tech oligarchs, you know, no, we need to do this. We need to have these fake Game of Thrones characters talking to young teens or China will beat us. Okay? Like, it's like some dumb space race. Again, I'm not. I don't want to come across like I'm anti all artificial intelligence or anti AI. It's. It's like I'm. I could see areas where that could be helpful or whatever, like, you know, advancing technology. That's great. But. But something like this, I don't think we need Game of Thrones characters to talk to. I don't think that's like a matter of national importance. That's a business for somebody, which is fine if you can do it safely. But I think, I don't know, I don't know where the answers are. I'm not saying I have any answers.
- [14:32]
B
But as you say, other media has been used by people to say, oh, this inspired this person to do this or that. I think the Catcher in the Rye has been blamed for acts of violence over the years and it's just ultimately hard to figure these things out. I mainly wanted to raise this because AI is just rapidly being absorbed into our lives and we haven't had conversations like this.
- [15:04]
A
We have foisted upon us, we haven't.
- [15:07]
B
Had, we haven't had conversations. How does this affect us? How do we deal with this? And I think those conversations are worth having. Yeah.
- [15:15]
A
And our Gerontocracy leadership, you know, has seemingly no answer to, you know, any sort of reasonable possible regulations or, or at least parameters for, for dealing with harm done. Right. I mean, like, that's what we're talking about here. And again, I'm not sure if the answer is, oh, don't allow this because I don't know, maybe, maybe stuff like this would happen regardless. And this is just, you know, something we have to accept. I'm, I'm open to that, but I just don't feel like it's being really looked at. It's just being kind of, again, foisted upon us as a society and, you know, people are left to deal with the wreckage that it may cause. And I, I, I, I think, I, I don't know where the answer is though. I, I don't know if you can let, I can, I don't know if the courts can necessarily do anything about this. I, I just don't, I just don't know. And I also, one problem is we don't really know, like, if there's, if there's studies done and people figure out, okay, this, this is bad, or if they find out. Well, no, I mean, this is, it's not really having an impact either way, but we, we don't know that. It's just kind of being introduced. And I would say with, you know, again, and this is so hard because, I mean, he's using his own money to buy this. Right. It's like his parents don't, like, it's not like he's using the family card necessarily. So kids can possibly do this even if their parent is not signing off on It. Right.
- [16:40]
B
It's tough to find a way to thread the needle where if a nerdy man wants to talk to Han Solo, he can do that, but a teenager can't do something like this.
- [16:53]
A
Maybe age restrictions, maybe you have to prove identity, maybe something like that. Maybe that's a solution. Because I, I do. I. You joke about having, you know, a nerdy man want to talk to Han Solo. I can understand, like, somebody could do that and it not necessarily be like a disaster psychologically, because I think you're in a place where, you know, you're. You're pretty happy in your life. You're. You're living your life and you are stable and you're not thinking, oh, my gosh, this is my only friend. Right, Right. And you're just having fun. Right. Maybe it's like, for a joke or for. For some kind of, like, thing that you're doing, like that, that, that seems fine. But if it's a situation where you're vulnerable and you're like a little kid, I mean, it just. That seems where. That's where I'm most concerned about at this point. And there maybe needs to be some common sense age parameters here. Again, you know, you could still have people in their 20s or in their 50s who are vulnerable. So it's not like it would save everybody. It's just. I don't know, it's. It's complicated. I don't know where the solution is. I'd be curious. People smarter than me, how they, how they look at this now.
- [17:59]
B
Oh, how can anyone be smarter than you?
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A
It's pretty easy.
- [18:04]
B
So I want to move on and talk about a Pardon me a second AI Case.
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Weirdos and stalkers have posted our personal information. One guy even said he'd get rid of Kevin so he can marry me. Fun but seriously, it can be kind of scary.
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B
These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease and is not a substitute for care from a healthcare provider. This one involves a radio host from Georgia named Mark Walters. I confess I've never heard of this gentleman. The Puck article describes him as a Georgia based radio host with a national following and a fondness for the second Amendment. So, okay, let's just take for granted he is a public figure who is well known in whatever circles he travels in. So what occurs here is that someone went online to try to get some background information on Mr. Walters. They used some AI and the AI said, oh, Mark Walters, he was accused of embezzlement. And the problem is Mark Walters was never accused of embezzlement. That's just completely fictitious. No merit in that. Charge is completely made up. And so Mark Roberts, of course, is a man who cares about his reputation sues for defamation. And that raises some interesting questions. Number one, can a computer program have the malice necessary to meet the prong to successfully sue for Lytle? I mean, that's an interesting question, isn't it?
- [24:12]
A
It is. It definitely is.
- [24:14]
B
Can you just sue the people who created the program and are in charge of running it for being careless to let this sort of information out Before I tell you what happened next in this case, Anya, tell me your thoughts about this.
- [24:26]
A
Well, I don't know if a a Non human can have malice. I do think we need as a society to make it very possible for people to be sued over this though. I think it's important for the company behind whatever bot or whatever you know, program is able to be held accountable. If people's lives are, you know, harmed and their, their reputations are harmed, we, so I don't know, I don't necessarily buy the whole like a compute, I mean, but the thing is the computer or the, whatever the bot is, is, is arranged and put together by human beings. There needs to be accountability. Anyone who's acting like there shouldn't be accountability is probably trying to, you know, sell some AI stuff, right?
- [25:08]
B
I mean, yeah, I, I don't like the idea of it being AI be like a get out of jail free card that allows you to get away with committing libel.
- [25:20]
A
If this is negligent, this is negligent.
- [25:22]
B
If there is a lies being spread about you online that are damaging to your reputation, you should have a remedy for that.
- [25:32]
A
Yes. And if it's coming from AI, then the people who created the AI are responsible for dealing with that and responsible for making sure stuff like that didn't happen. They failed. So yeah, they should be held accountable. There should be, there should be recompense for that.
- [25:43]
B
So what happened, and I am oversimplifying a bit here, is that the, the judge said, well, they say there that it's possible in the fine print that wrong information may be included. And so I don't think anybody would have taken this seriously anyway and threw it out.
- [25:59]
A
So like elderly judge, I don't know, maybe middle aged judge, elderly judge being like, well it's Internet so you're not supposed to believe that. Anyway, thanks everyone for playing. So totally drop the ball here. Totally drop the ball. I'm sorry.
- [26:10]
B
Like I, I, I think a lot of people in positions of power in the legal community don't really have a full understanding of the digital landscape. And I, I, I think we need to have people really making careful considered decisions about how to handle some of these things.
- [26:30]
A
Or the guy was like, this is too complicated. No one takes this seriously anyway. Obviously people take it seriously. This stuff is just gonna get worse and worse and worse and there's gonna have to be a mechanism for something to be done about it. Okay, yeah, like if I, if I, like, if I have a newspaper, if I own a newspaper and somebody comes in and just jokingly writes like Kevin's a scoundrel as the headline and whatever, and that damages your reputation, you know, I, I Don't really have to have the, like, like there's, there would be. That would be taken seriously. Right? Because like that, I didn't intend for that to happen, but it did happen and I, it was my job to make sure that didn't happen. So that would not be thrown out on its face necessarily. This shouldn't be thrown out either. People need to be held accountable and then that will encourage people to ensure stuff like this doesn't happen and that protects everybody. So it's, it's not even about being anti AI, it's just why do a. Why do AI systems and the people who are making money off of them, why do those get some sort of special consideration under the law? Because like what. Where they're just supposed to be stupid and not. No, no one takes them seriously. I think these people want them to be taken seriously. That's why they're having people, you know, that's why they're putting them out there to be used. Right. Can I also just say this? This is gonna. Oh my God, I'm gonna make people mad at me again. But I don't care. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta say what I gotta say. When I see people in True Crime like on their lives or whatever, asking Chat GPT about stuff like what is, what are they doing? Like what. Who is that for? Like, you know, like I, I don't know. There's no, there's not enough shame and embarrassment out there right now about this stuff. It's like it, like. Because what I, what I see when I see that is I could have just done that myself, you know, or I don't know, like actually research something myself, you know, like I, I just, I'm. I don't know. I'm. I, I think this, the, some of the stuff I see within the true crime research space concerns me because also like Chat GPT gets stuff wrong, right? Or some of these AI systems get stuff wrong. You have to double check it. So when I see people on live just doing it offhandedly, it's like this seems really good. This seems great. Really. You know, this seems like not at all a way that you could end up spreading misinformation about something. But as for this, I mean it's not even about being AI, it's just about like, I don't know, this guy was harmed. I think he deserves.
- [29:00]
B
Yeah.
- [29:00]
A
Some, some accountability here. And it sounds like he, he did not receive that. Do you agree with the judge? I mean like is there any.
- [29:08]
B
I, I believe if there is a Bad situation. There needs to be a remedy. And I feel this, this journalist was wrong.
- [29:16]
A
I think he was too. I mean, I think he definitely was. It's not, it's not really that close. And I know he's a public figure and there's a higher standard there, but nonetheless, I mean, this is just made up about him. It's not, you know, it's not close. He never embezzled anybody.
- [29:34]
B
So these are just some of the conversations we need to start having. AI is, is here to stay. It's going to become an increasingly larger and larger part of our lives and we just need to think about some of these things and figure out the fairest way to handle it.
- [29:49]
A
Yeah. And again, I, I don't buy any of these arguments of like we need to be China so we know there can be no regulations and just give us all your money. No, like average citizens rights and, and livelihoods and lives need to be protected, you know, for us to do this.
- [30:06]
B
Should we move on to your cases?
- [30:07]
A
Sure. Okay. So the first one I'm gonna do is a very, very heavy, sad case. This is, gets into the murder of children. And it's a case that's gotten some publicity out of Washington. And I actually went and reached out to the county clerk in this situation and got some documents. So we'll be reading from those right now and kind of getting into what happened here. So these are the murders of three beautiful little girls, Peyton, Evelyn and Olivia Decker, their sisters. Peyton was nine, Evelyn was eight and Olivia was five. And the person who is believed to have murdered them is their father, Travis C. Decker. So I'm going to read now from the probable cause affidavit, I believe from the Shalon county in Washington. It's dated June 3, 2025. And again thanks to the county clerk for providing me with this. Really appreciate it. They were great to work with. And I'm just going to read this and we're going to kind of hear the story unfold through this. So quote, On May 30, 2025, around 2134 hours, Whitney D. Decker arrived in lobby at the WPD to report a civil complaint. She advised patrol that her ex husband, Travis C. Decker had failed to return their three children at 22,000 hours in violation of their agreed upon and court ordered parenting plan. End quote. So the person who took this on and also I totally messed up that time. I'm sorry, I can't, I don't, I don't understand military time. This seems to be with the Wenatchee Police Department. Corporal Albert Gonzalez is the person who's going to be kind of doing a lot in this. So that's who this is. And he noted that this mother of these three daughters was, was cry, had seemingly been crying recently. She looked distraught. And she explained that she and Decker were both divorced, but they had, you know, been parenting these three daughters together. And that meant that they had a parenting plan. Right. I think people who are divorced, that may be something people can understand where you're co parenting. So you set up a parenting plan to discuss, you know, who has the kids, when and how does, how visitations go and what that's going to look like. And you know, the. What she's. What she told Gonzalez, Corporal Gonzalez was that their most recent one had been ordered by a judge on September 27, 2024, and it had his visitation limited to every other weekend with specific hours of Fridays from, you know, a certain time to a certain time Saturdays and Sundays. So like there were like times where he was supposed to return them and then no overnight visits. And. And so this is all confined, right? So this is. And you know, that had been going fine. Like things have been fine. So anyways, she says that the ex husband picks them up, the girls up from, you know, her home and just did not bring them back. She is calling him, she's trying to get in touch. His cell phone is going right to voicemail. So she says to Gonzalez he's never done this before. But she also notes that she believes he is experiencing some mental health issues. So let's get into the PCA again. Quote, @ the time of the initial report, Whitney explained that Decker does not currently have a stable residence and is considered homeless. He is known to often stay in hotels and motels or he camps at local campgrounds. But Whitney did not know where to find him. Corporal Gonzalez stated he attempted Decker's cell phone number, but it went straight to voicemail, identifying the cell phone as Deckers, end quote. She went on to describe that he had a white truck, didn't know the exact type. Gonzalez searches and finds that It's a white 2017 GMC Sierra and had actually recently, as recent as May 27, been in some sort of collision. And there was an investigation he was on in another collision May 4 and left the scene. So, you know, there were some problems there. And they. Gonzalez again looks for the vehicle through something called Flock Safety and found that it was registered by an automatic license plate reader on going northbound on the Wenatchee Bridge. And. And he said it was likely after Decker picked up his daughters. And so they're thinking, okay, maybe he's heading to a hotel or campground around there. So Corporal Gonzalez calls around all the hotels and motels, goes to, you know, calls the Confluence State Park. He's looking for them. A park ranger checks the camping roster, so thinking maybe he's at the campground, but he's not listed for any of the campsites there. And they also got an East Wenatchee Police department officer named Conley who was asked to check East Wenatchee hotels and motels for Decker's vehicle, and it was not found. So at that point, an ATL was called. An ATL is Attempt to locate. So everyone's, you know, the. The different agencies in the area are told, look for this man, Decker, his vehicle, the. The white truck, or these three girls. So look for all of them. And Corporal Gonzalez got in touch with the Washington State Patrol Missing and Endangered Person Unit. He gives them all the information, and he wants to see if they can do an Amber Alert. But, quote, based on the fact there was no current evidence to believe the children were at risk of serious bodily injury or death, it did not qualify. End quote. Can we talk a little bit about Amber Alerts? I think that's something that's very misunderstood.
- [36:06]
B
Yes.
- [36:07]
A
Amber Alerts are alerts that you need to meet specific protocols, specific parameters in order to qualify for an Amber Alert. The reason for that is twofold. Amber Alerts are effective when you have actionable information. So car information, and, like, a kidnapping has definitely happened, and people are in danger, and it's to avoid flooding the system for, like, all the calls of everything. Sometimes there are. Some states have different things, like, silver Alerts that don't have quite as strict parameters. So, you know, there can be more of those. Um, to be honest, personally, I tend to be pretty. I tend to be pretty. Like, people are always mad when Amber Alerts aren't called, and I usually kind of, like, understand why they weren't in this case. Given the father's mental health issues and the fact that this has never happened before, I'm a little surprised that they didn't call one. I guess I am surprised that they didn't call one. Maybe. I mean, what do you think?
- [37:12]
B
It is a little surprising.
- [37:13]
A
Like, I feel like this would have merited one and. And, you know, unfortunately, it ends in tragedy, so I don't know if it would have even helped. But I'm in this one. I'm kind of like, why didn't they. But whatever. So. So on May 31, 2025. This is from the PCA. Quote, There was a large social media presence looking for information into the whereabouts of Decker and the children. By the time I saw the social media post, it was clear that Whitney had not been able to contact decker for over 12 hours. And from wpd's pass down it was noted that one of the children had an event planned at a local park the morning of that Decker and the children never showed up for, end quote. And so this PCA was filled out by, it looks like Brian Hewitt, who is a Wenatchee PD detective. And so he's the one kind of the affiant filling all of this out. So spreads on social media. Quote. With a continued concern about the lack of communication from Decker, I met with Whitney at her parents residence in Wenatchee to get further details. Whitney explained that since that she and Decker were married for about seven years but had since divorced for a few years. She explained the divorce was civil and initially Decker had housing. It was allowed overnight visits. However, when he lost housing, the parenting plan was readdressed to accommodate accordingly. Whitney denied any domestic violence during their marriage, but did mention moments of power or control he used. She provided examples of randomly leaving or waking her up by screaming at her in the middle of the night. She also said that near the end of the marriage he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and she believes he currently does not take medications for. And you know, she said their daughters all had a great relationship with them, enjoyed their time with them. It was a good relationship. No issues with recent visitation. She and Decker were always communicative with each other. If there were any issues or someone was running late, that was something they were going to talk about. And he never ever, ever once failed to return the children to her when he said he was going to. So I know people have been saying, okay, he was mentally ill, he was homeless. And like I get that that sounds bad, but like it sounds like things had been good, it sounds like things had been fine. So I think we need to like, I don't, I don't think we need to be like judging this mother who went through this, you know what I mean? So she did say that the last time that there was a exchange he did seem quieter than normal. And you know, she kind of chalked it up to he got a ticket, maybe that there's going to be a financial burden. You know, he also was having garnished wages to, you know, back child support, things like that. And he was also talking about getting rid of his dog due to housing and financial concerns. And you know, the dog was apparently a very important part of his life too. So that's obviously kind of a big deal. The parenting plan in this situation talked about how notable concerns so quote reasons putting limitations of parenting show Decker has neglected his parental duties and has long term emotional or physical problem that gets in the way. His or her ability to parent and also details about access to the children and ability to talk with them via cell phone when needed. They both agreed to the plan, but the signature line states Decker refused to sign Decker. Quote Decker is also supposed to seek mental health treatment and DV anger management counseling under the parent plan, but has not. So, you know, definitely are some signals that something's not good. So the girls, when they left their home, they just left with the clothes on their back. They, they didn't like have luggage or anything like that. So at this point, you know, these girls are missing. Decker's missing and probable cause was found to arrest Travis C. Decker initially for three counts of custodial interference in the first degree. And so June 2, 2025, the warrant for his arrest goes out and law enforcement begins pulling cell phone records, timing advance records, automatic license plate readers. They canvas the area for security, surveillance footage for possible locations. They look at social media. That day they also do an intensive search across the entire county, Shelling county. And you know, the sheriff's office is involved. Family, friends, volunteers, they're all looking. So June 2, 2025, at 1556 hours, CCSO Deputy McLeod finds Decker's vehicle. It's abandoned, it's unoccupied. It's at the Rock Island Campground in Leavenworth, Washington, off of Icicle Road. Leavenworth is the nearest town, and it's in, it's, it's in an uncorporated part of Chillin county. And they go in with a helicopter. They go in with Homeland Security Investigations, the Wenatchee Police Department, Chillin County Sheriff's Office, and they go down a small embankment and they find three bodies. These are three. These are the three girls. And they each have a plastic bag over their head. And the clothing they're wearing seems to match what the girls were wearing. Quote, around the vehicle and along the way where the children are located, officers and deputies located zip ties in plastic bags strewn throughout the area. The tailgate of the pickup truck also has what appears to be two handprints of blood. The truck has personal items to include blankets, car seats, food, miscellaneous items, and a wallet on the center console. During the Search of the area. An abandoned camp was located nearby. The approximate area with signs of recent activity cam consists of a fire pit, tent and cooler and within a short walk from where the vehicle and bodies were located. Cell phone records Deckard's cell phone acquired Saturday under X and C show that Decker likely traveled to the area on Thursday, May 29, 2025 evening and returned to Wenatchee Friday morning. Under the totality of the situations, it appears that Degar drove through the area the night prior and returned the next day with the children. Preliminary examinations suggest the likely cause of death was asphyxiation. Their, their wrists were also zip tied or show signs of being zip tied. They were positively identified by the Chillin county coroner. And there is probable cause to arrest Travis C. Decker for three counts of murder in the first degree and three counts of kidnapping. First degree. So that is the PCA and that is, that is where things stand. Decker remains at large as of today, which is June 6th. I mean this is just such a horrible, horrible situation. He's believed to be some, I mean he's been reported as some sort of former soldier for the United States Army. He might be have some survival skills. People talking about him, he might be hiding in the woods. I just don't even, I don't, I don't know what can compel a parent to do something like this to their kids. What a, what a violent and horrible death for these three girls. I just don't even, it really, it's hard to, I mean, I just don't understand it. What are your thoughts on this case?
- [44:39]
B
It's absolutely horrifying.
- [44:42]
A
Yeah, I understand that there were red flags based on his unstable lifestyle and mental illness, but is also really does seem like came out of nowhere as far as his relationship with these girls and whatnot. And I mean maybe there need to be conversations about what are subtle red flags that people might have missed or like what are, you know, if someone is having some sort of like lack of stability there, do there need to be supervised visits? I don't know. But all of that is just kind of trying to go back in time and make sense of it. But like you just really can't. So yeah, I, I, my heart goes out to these little girls and their family. I mean just, I just, it's, it's horrible just asphyxiation. Like I, I don't know, it's, it's a really, it's a really horrible situation and I hope they find this guy.
- [45:31]
B
Because, and we certainly keep an eye on this One.
- [45:33]
A
Yeah. Needs to be held accountable. My last case, we're going back to Indiana. This one's a good one because nobody died. Love that. You know, like it's nice when you cover as many murders as we do. It's always really nice when there's like a stupid bumbling plot to kill people and it doesn't work and you're just like, yes, yeah, much better than the alternative. So this, my source for this is a affidavit for probable cause was written by Detective Robert Harrison of the New Albany Police Department. This was in New Albany, Indiana, in Floyd County. This is for people who are not from Indiana. This is at the southmost portion of Indiana. It's right near Kentucky and Louisville and things like that. So this is, this is what happened. This is just like ridiculous. So quote, On May 13, 2025, at approximately 10:58am Officer Jason King with the New Albany Police Department was present at the City hall building located at 142 East Main Street. He heard gunshots that appeared to be coming from the parking lot of City Hall. At this time, multiple police officers exited the building to the parking lot behind City Hall. Officer King walked towards Bank street east where Corporal Nail noted broken glass in the roadway. Officer King spoke with Rebecca Holloway who advised she heard the shots and saw a navy blue or black Toyota or Lexus SUV leaving the scene. Approximately 1101am Officer Jake Hannon arrived at the scene and spoke to a woman I will refer to as OK who was inside the Bohemian Barbershop located at 37 Bank street inside the Underground Station Business Center. OK stated she was inside the barbershop with her 11 year old son when she heard gunshots. She then felt something hit her foot. She felt pain on her foot and noticed blood on her shoe. She took her shoe off and noticed she was bleeding from her foot. She was later transported, transported to the Floyd Baptist Health emergency room to receive treatment for her injuries. Detective Williams then conducted Flock searches, an investigative tool that collects license plate data with publicly mounted cameras. Detective Williams then received camera footage from City hall and other surrounding businesses that show the suspect vehicle, a fourth generation 2013-2015 black Toyota RAV4 traveling on East Main street at approximately 9:28am before the shooting occurred. So he goes into all of these different various Flock searches and he figures out which vehicle it is. And it has an Indiana collegiate license plate for Purdue University. Apologies to Kevin's father, a proud Purdue alum alumnus. And it goes through a camera mounted on Brown Station Way facing westbound. And he sees like, this matches everything that he saw with the suspect vehicle. So they, like, they run it, and it's registered to a woman named Teresa Brown. And it's found that she has a son named Aaron Brown. And he. He lives there. And they send an officer, checks the location of. For his parents, houses for him, and they also look at Aaron Brown's background. So they run a driver's license, check all this stuff, and they. They find that he. I guess they like, look at, quote, something called Leads Online, which shows that he often pawns items in the area. So they. He recently went to First Cash Pawn and all these various things, and they, you know, I mean, it's kind of amazing, some of the technology behind this, that they're able to get all this in. Like, this is something that would save so much time. Back in the day, they'd have to, like, do all this by kind of, you know, running around and talking to people. But nowadays, like, it's all. It's all connected, right? It's all. It's all computer tools and whatever. So anyways, they go and they find Aaron Brown. He doesn't want to talk to the police. They, they. It says, quote, as I held out the search warrant for him to observe and read, he uttered, that's my mom's car, end quote. So they see the car, it has the same exact make, model, plate number, VIN and damage, and, you know, it's obviously the same car. So he then says that he had last driven the car Monday, but then somehow the car was lost, but he would not explain how it was lost. So I guess he's saying, oh, I misplaced my car. Then Aaron's. Aaron Brown's, quote, common law wife, Melinda Graves, told investigators that she was angry with Aaron because the car and the phone had come up missing with no explanation nation, and he had been using hers. So there's a lot of confusion about the car situation. But anyways, so they talked to this common law wife, they talked to Aaron Brown's mother, and again, like, it's very lucky that no one had been killed in this shooting at the. At the barber shop, right? I mean, like, like, but that could have happened. Fortunately, this woman was just injured. But again, like, no one deserves to have that when they're just, like, going about their day getting their son a haircut. So they look into Aaron and they end up connecting him with this guy named Joseph Fleesia. I'm sorry if I'm saying his last name wrong on this is they. They get a source, and the source tells the detectives that this guy hired Aaron Brown to murder a guy who I'm going to call RS because like, I don't know, he was the subject of a murder plot. So I kind of feel weird about just putting out his whole name. Quote the reliable source told me that Joseph Felicia provided Aaron brown with an AR style firearm used in the shooting incident at 37 Bank Street. This reliable source informed me that Joseph Felicia is in possession of the AR style firearm but has disposed of the barrel. Joseph Legia discussed the information for the job done over the phone. The reliable source informed me that Joseph Leisure offered Aaron Brown a job to murder RS&H L on phone April 28, 2025. Aaron Brown's offer by Joseph Felicia was $5,000 cash to shoot and kill the targets. Joseph Leisure provided Aaron Brown with R&H's work address at 37 Bank street and also provided Aaron Brown with a 5.56 caliber AR Star rifle which was cited in by Joseph Leisure and a 9 millimeter handgun. Aaron Brown's deal was that he would receive $2,500 upfront and $2,500 once the obituary for R and H was out. The plan was that Aaron Brown and Joseph Legion made for the murder was that Aaron Brown was to wait outside of R H's business at 37 Bank Street. Once Aaron killed R and H. Aaron was to trade out Aaron Brown's Toyota RAV4 at rubber side down, which is Joseph Fliesia's business. And Joseph Fleecia would provide Aaron Brown with a vehicle. Joseph Fleesia provided Aaron Brown with an AMC Eagle station wagon with wooden paneling. Bering Indiana Historical Plate AH2 1 7N which returned registered to Joseph Felicia on May 22, 2025. A reliable source informed me that Aaron Brown, Joseph Felicia and Cody, Joseph Leisure's employee met at Joseph leisure shop at 642 State street the morning of 515 2025. A reliable source informed me that those subjects patched the broken back window of the Toyota RAV4 and helped paint the vehicle black. End quote. So then they also talked about getting rid of the car by driving it to Louisville, Kentucky and having Cody quote, blow it up. Oh man. So this is all, this is all pretty wild when when they searched the shop owned by Joseph Fliesia, they found a locker in the basement with the name Cody attached to it. And they found marijuana in that, a white crystal like substance that tested positive for methamphetamine and a grinder. So there seems to be at least some like level of drugs going on here. Uh, apparently there was a ATF agent there named Abbott who was, was like, you know, looking at. There was guns in a car, several guns were located in the store and also, you know, I think some glass pipes. So there was also another, a second location searched. There was a residence of Joseph Leisure searched and the regional SWAT team entered and they ended up made contact, making contact with him via cell phone during that. And yeah, I mean, there's apparently some situation regarding something was found in his front pant pocket which tested positive for cocaine. So this seems to be some drug angle here. And at this point, Aaron Brown is facing obstruction of justice, possession of methamphetamine, possession of paraphernalia, possession of marijuana. Cody Wade Vest, who's that employee we mentioned, assisting a criminal obstruction of justice, possession of methamphetamine and marijuana. Joseph Fleezia is two counts of conspiracy to commit murder, assisting a criminal, possession of cocaine and possession of paraphernalia. And I want to say one thing. The this and this was all tipped in by a listener. So thank you so much to this person. They sent also a post from Bohemian Barbers where this violent incident occurred. And they. Bohemian Barbers wants everyone to know that, quote, we do need to correct some inaccurate information that was broadcast by WRB News. The alleged targets of the shooting were not employed by or in any way associated with Bohemian Barbers. This inaccurate reporting has hurt our business and employees along with misinforming the public. We hope that WDRB and other news outlets will strive for more accurate reporting in the future. We urge them to remember the human impact of their reporting and to approach their work with the respect and ethical standards such a situation demands. And they also said, quote, we are deeply saddened and concerned by the violent incident that occurred in our premises on May 13, 2025. The safety and well being of our customers, employees and community are our top priorities. We are fully cooperating with law, local law enforcement as they investigate the situation. Our hearts go out to all those affected, End quote. So, I mean, they're not to blame, obviously.
- [56:13]
B
Obviously they're not to blame. And this is another one we'll keep an eye on going forward.
- [56:17]
A
Absolutely.
- [56:18]
B
Now, can I tell the people, Anya, can I tell the people the news? We've already put this news out on Facebook weeks ago, but I don't think we've announced it publicly on the program.
- [56:28]
A
Do it.
- [56:29]
B
Come September, the cane train is going to be making a special stop in Denver, Colorado for CrimeCon.
- [56:39]
A
Yay. We're really excited.
- [56:41]
B
I think there's a promo Code involved.
- [56:43]
A
Okay, so this is a promo code. The promo code is murder sheet. M U R D E R S H E E T. All caps, no spaces. It is active. And if you use this to come to CrimeCon, you will get 10% off your standard badge. Do it. Come and see us. We want to see you.
- [57:05]
B
And also, here's the thing. I've never been to Denver, so my knowledge of their fish sandwich scene is a complete blank. So if you've been to Denver, if you live in Denver, if you're familiar with Denver and you know anything about their fish scene, let us know.
- [57:23]
A
What a weird question. Yeah, people should let us know.
- [57:29]
B
Ananya, I have a question. What if I'm not going to CrimeCon? What if I have friends? I have a little book club that we talk about books. Is there any way that you can come and talk to us?
- [57:46]
A
Yes, but you really should come to CrimeCon. And that's September 6th, I believe, when it starts. So consider that. But, yes, we are. We love book clubs, and we would be really excited to. If you guys pick our book for your book club. Right. Shadow of the Bridge could order it on bookshop.com. you can order it on Amazon. I think you can order it through Barnes and Noble. And if you want to support your local bookstore. I'm sorry, it's bookshop.org use them, because they work with local bookstores. So bookshop.org is great. Or if you're abroad or.
- [58:25]
B
Or a man.
- [58:26]
A
No, Kevin. Oh, my God.
- [58:29]
B
If you use such gendered language over there.
- [58:31]
A
I said abroad, like out of the country.
- [58:34]
B
I'm saying even if you're a man, you're also allowed to buy the book. And I call them. I call them ladies. But if Anya wants to call them broads, be my guest, but go ahead.
- [58:44]
A
Are you doing some sort of Abbott and Costello routine right now? What is happening? How sick are you? Oh, my God. Anyways, so you should. But, yeah, talk to your local bookstore. That's the great way of ordering, because then you can support them and get the book and everyone's happy. So, you know, but if. If you. If you want to do that, if you want to pick our book for your book club, then we will come zoom with you. We will zoom and talk to your book club. We will answer questions. We. You can talk to us. You can ask us questions. You can yell at us all. Although I hope you don't do that. Don't do that.
- [59:22]
B
But I should have done this.
- [59:24]
A
Yeah. Oh, because you get your, like, vaudeville comedy routine. Going, you threw me off.
- [59:29]
B
Okay, you said do this and you can yell at us, so.
- [59:32]
A
Oh God, whatever. Just let me finish.
- [59:36]
B
You got to attract the wrong element.
- [59:37]
A
The wrong element. No, don't yell at us. But we, but I think it would be fun. And if you, if you kind of like get the book for your book club, you know, it doesn't have to be in like August. Like we're going to be talking about this book for a long time. But you know, I would say it's crime, nonfiction. It's a very upsetting and horrible story. I think it's a very interesting story. Our book really kind of, I think encapsulates the whole case and like what happened. But I would just say if that seems like something that would be up your book club's alley, talk to us. Send us an email to murder sheet gmail.com, put book club in the subject line just so we can have that, so we can know what's going on and we can kind of see if we can arrange a time where we can zoom in with you and, and do something. I think it would be kind of cool. And you could, you know, you're the, the members of the club can like ask us questions or we can do a little presentation. Don't have any questions. And I would also say if anybody has any solutions on how Kevin can kind of get over his sort of notoriously long lasting coughs, we'd also be very interested in learning about that.
- [60:44]
B
Well, I need to eat more fish.
- [60:46]
A
Is that the solution?
- [60:48]
B
That's always the solution.
- [60:49]
A
You think like Denver might be good, like you'd be like one of those guys who goes to the seaside to deal with your, to deal with your cough in the 1800s or something. But, but I guess the mountains instead.
- [61:00]
B
Yeah, I don't think there's an ocean in Denver.
- [61:03]
A
That sounds like a really bad like, like alternative album title, there's an ocean in Denver. But anyway, so yeah, book club, we're gonna, we plan to do something where we send out stickers with our signature to people who pre ordered. So we're gonna set that up at some point and get that.
- [61:22]
B
And also you can always join our Patreon. And I mentioned that because it just popped into my, that last night on our Patreon, Anya referred to herself as a waiter's dream. And so if you want to know the context of that, Kevin, what happens.
- [61:36]
A
In Patreon stays in Patreon. You're breaking the code.
- [61:40]
B
Push the button.
- [61:41]
A
You're breaking the code. I will I will have my revenge.
- [61:45]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@themurdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [62:05]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [62:29]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [62:40]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.