B (2:06)

I'm not gonna name names or anything like that, but a lot of them are not impressive. Wow.

A (2:11)

Okay, so you're. You're shots fired at our listeners because maybe they're from a state that you don't like the nickname.

B (2:20)

And also, I want to note, apparently this interest in states is common in True Crime, because I've been told I've not listened to this podcast, but Janet Varney, who's a part of another true crime podcast. She apparently co hosts a podcast about state mottos. So it's obviously a topic of great concern for all of us.

A (2:43)

I just want to just point something out. For a long time, I've seen comments, and I've been amused by them. I've been amused where people are like, oh, God, you know, Anya almost went off last night. Like, Kevin's really holding her. You know, Kevin's, like, keeping her reined in so she doesn't go nuts.

B (2:57)

But I want the thin Kevin line.

A (2:58)

Yeah, the thing Kevin line. And I just want to point. I just want to. I guess I just want to gesture in Kevin's direction right now and look meaningfully at the camera. That does not exist here. So that's all I'll say.

B (3:10)

Let's get. Let's get going.

A (3:12)

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

B (3:15)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

A (3:17)

And this is the murder Sheet.

B (3:19)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

A (3:27)

And this is the cheat sheet. Endangerment and elders. It.

B (4:17)

Anya, as I watched you pretend to conduct the music moments ago, it occurs to me, should we have, like, different themes? Should we have, like, a Tinder murder sheet love theme? Because we're in love. I mean, would that be nice to set the mood for what? Or maybe if there's gonna be like, a fiery debate, should we have, like, a murder sheet action theme?

A (4:44)

Lost your mind?

B (4:45)

I was just inspired by seeing you pretend to conduct it.

A (4:48)

Well, I was just doing a bit in the privacy of my own home that no one else can see. So thanks for pointing that out to all the listeners.

B (4:56)

Glad to do it.

A (4:57)

Thanks. Snitching. All right, so this first case that we're going to do, I really want to stress how urgent this situation is. I'm praying that by the time you hear this episode, it is irrelevant because the person involved is found. But that is not necessarily going to be the case. And if that is the case, I will add something to the show notes. But if not, just assume that she's still missing. This is the case of 17 year old Hailey Busby. So I just. Before we get started talking about the facts of this case, I want to say this is a missing and endangered young girl. She's 17 and she was last seen in Fishers, Indiana. If you are in Indiana, please, please, on your social media, wherever you can, talking to friends, share her story I'm going to be including links in our show. We're an audio only format, right. So we can't convey to you like we can't make you see a picture of her. But we're going to be including links to articles where it shows Haley's picture. Share that widely. She needs to be found. This is a dangerous and scary situation. I'm sure it's absolutely devastating for her family. So we need to know what she looks like. We need to spread what she looks like so that if someone sees her they can call 911 because that is what police are asking for at this point. That if she has seen that, you're either supposed to call 911 or contact the Fishers Police Department at 317-773-1282. Again those numbers, not 911 but the Fishers police number will be in our show notes and just don't hesitate, okay? Because this girl needs to get found. This is a very scary situation. So let's go into the case of Hailey Busby. My, my, my sources for this are for a statement from the Fishers Police Department as well as something from the Hamilton County Reporter, Indianapolis Star. So I'll be including links and I'll probably throw in a couple of extra one to different news stories just so you have some options in terms of sharing Haley's photo because I think that's really important right now. We're recording this on January 22, 2026 and as of right now she's still missing. So she lives in, lived in Fishers, Indiana with her family. For those of you who are not aware, Fishers, Indiana is a city to the north of Indianapolis. It is in Hamilton County. It's kind of a, it's a nice city. It's just kind of growing, kind of a suburban vibe. Is that what you would say, Kevin?

B (7:39)

Yeah, it has a good reputation. Often when you see lists of oh, these are the best places to live in the country, you see Fishers, Indiana listed on them often just under its neighbor, Carmel, Indiana.

A (7:55)

Yeah, it's very nice and it's, you know, it's very safe. So it's a lot of families, you know, go to Fishers and raise their kids and I imagine that's what the Busbys were doing. So they have a 17 year old daughter, Hayley and by all accounts she's a great kid, very sweet, very kind, wonderful kid. But unfortunately on January 5, 2026, around 10:00pm that is the last time her parents see her. She's apparently in the residence at that point at what is called the enclave in the Vermillion neighborhood of Fishers. And she's last seen around 10pm and at some point she leaves the house. Police believe she leaves the house voluntarily on her own accord. So that distinguishes this from a situation where a predator is breaking into the home and abducting someone. She's actually making the choice to leave. Okay, so she leaves. And, and to give you a sense of contextualizing this, this is apparently near the Flat Fork Creek park. It's off of 101st Street. And just give you a brief physical description. Although I would again encourage you to look at the pictures of her that we're going to include in the show. Notes. She's 17, she's 5 foot 3, she's got brown hair, brown eyes. She's last seen wearing gray jeans, a white blouse, a black puffer jacket. She's carrying a pink Vera Bradley duffel bag. And at first she is classified specifically as a runaway because she is, she is a child and but she's deciding to leave on her own. It's not believed to be some sort of stranger abduction or something like that where she's kind of getting snatched or forcibly dragged away somewhere. She's leaving. But at this point that has been upgraded to I believe she's been listed as an endangered juvenile, an endangered missing juvenile. So that means that police are extremely concerned for her safety, extremely concerned for her well being. And also what police are saying now is that they don't believe Haley acted alone. And that makes sense. She's 17 years old. It's difficult for an adult to just completely disappear. It's difficult to disappear without a trace. So police believe she's being helped. Police believe that she had a plan with someone else and that person may still, I would imagine, have her be in the picture. And that's just again so incredibly scary. Her father said this to the Indianapolis Star, quote, based on when she left, she couldn't have done that alone. Real progress has been made by the community because of the outreach and concern for her. We shared as much as we possibly can and put the word out. People have given us the hope and strength that we need, end quote. To give you a little bit more background on Haley, she was a student or she is a student at the Hamilton Southeastern High School. And you know, there were one thing I've seen that I kind of want to dispel a little bit is that I've seen chatter online where people say, oh my gosh, there are all these Kids missing in Hamilton County, Indiana. And what they're specifically citing are two other cases, one out of Westfield and one out of Noblesville, which are also cities near Fishers. And those were also cases of kind of kids running away or like voluntarily leaving. But those cases have both been resolved. I'm actually not going to name those kids because, you know, those cases have been resolved. They've been resolved. So there's no, no one, you know, we don't need to bother them, whatever.

B (11:40)

I'm assuming there was no common denominator between those other cases.

A (11:43)

No. So when people are saying, oh, maybe there's a series, there's no series. I understand why people think that because they hear about all the, these cases and they're like, wow, they're all connected. But those other kids were found safe and they were brought home safely and, and that happens. But Hailey has not been brought home safely. We need to find Hailey immediately. And it's I, I, my heart goes out to her family. Please, like share articles, share this podcast, share whatever you need to share, but let's get the word out about Haley and I. I really hope they can bring this, this young girl home safely. She's a child, okay. She's the idea that she could be out there with somebody, anyone who's, who's aiding and abetting a child running away from home, I mean that's just, it conjures to mind some very dark and scary things. So.

B (12:33)

Absolutely.

A (12:34)

I really hope the Fishers police department is able to find her quickly with their law enforcement partners. But again, I'm going to read that number. If you see her, call 911 or call 317-773-1282. She needs to be brought home safely and this needs to come to a close for her and her family so that everyone can, can move on. But yeah, that is kind of Haley's story. So let's just kind of keep that very important. Let's keep her in our thoughts and our prayers. If you pray or if not, just kind of keep an eye out for her. So that was my first case. My second case is kind of two parter. The cases are involved, are in South Carolina and Georgia and this was recommended by listeners. So I really appreciate that listener for letting me know about this situation because I hadn't heard of it. And the reason it's a two parter is because it's kind of reminded me of another kind of infamous case. I'm not saying they're connected. I very much doubt they are. But it was more of the name that kind of got me on this because, you know, I know a little bit about a lot of cases. I wouldn't say by depth of knowledge. I don't have a lot of depth of knowledge about a lot of cases. But I would say, like, I can kind of, like when I hear hear a name that's familiar, I'm like, wait a minute. So my sources for this are a statement from the. Or rather, yeah, People Magazine and Fox 10 Phoenix, which is odd because this case happened in South Carolina. But I don't know. So. Thursday, January 15, 2026. In the evening, a 911 call comes in. And this is taking place in Oconee County, South Carolina, near Westminster. And a family member was trying to check in on an elderly couple, Larry and Sandra Moore. Larry was 76, Sandra was 75. And they were beloved community members. Super into going to the Calvary Church. Just very beloved. And they lived off of Cromer Moore Drive, kind of a rural area, it sounds like. And the family members trying to get a hold of them, trying to check in on them. No one can get in touch. So 911 is called, and unfortunately, Larry and Sandra are found dead in the home. And some of this is pending investigation and autopsies, but as of right now, I believe it's being looked at as a homicide. It's a new year. That means you need a new wardrobe, and you need one without breaking the bank.

B (15:23)

Our sponsor, Quince, makes refreshing your style easy. Their pieces are high quality and thoughtfully designed. So you're not just buying clothes. You're making a good investment in a garment that will last a long time. We love their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, their silk dresses, and their cute berets.

A (15:40)

Quince keeps prices down on these premium fashion staples by cutting out the middleman. We've bought a lot of their clothing, and we love the way these garments feel. They hold up really well.

B (15:50)

I love my quince wool and Mongolian cashmere sweaters and my quince suede bomber jacket. Never been a big fashion guy, but I wear all of these regularly and I love the way they feel. The new purchase I'm most excited about getting in the new year is their cotton piquet knit overshirt. I really like the way it looks. It looks like an elevated version of what I usually wear, and it seems great to help me layer and stay warm this winter. I'm really excited to get it and try it on.

A (16:17)

I'm excited for Kevin to model it, too. When you support our sponsors, you support us and we only support brands that we believe in. We know firsthand that quints is the place to go for coats, sweaters, silk shirts, dresses, shoes, home goods, jewelry, and more. You can get more with Quint's because their prices for quality goods are significantly less than other brands.

B (16:36)

Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com msheet free shipping and 365 day returns.

A (16:53)

Quince.com msheet and, you know, this is. This is something where, you know, you have an elderly couple suddenly dead. You know, you might be looking at accidents or other things like that, but unfortunately, in this case, I think they think it's something a lot more sinister. But the Oconee County Sheriff's Office has released a statement saying they do also believe it's isolated. I. I think sometimes those kind of statements from law enforcement can be controversial because people would be like, well, if you don't know who did it, how do you know? It's isolated? Which I think is fair. I think it's fair that law enforcement doesn't necessarily want to, like, run panicking to the public whenever something happens. And it's like, I don't know, maybe we're all in danger. Maybe they're coming after us next. Like, I mean, I get that, but sometimes I feel like maybe just don't say anything. I mean, I don't know. That's just my take. What do you think?

B (17:44)

Yeah, I think so, too.

A (17:46)

I don't think it's comforting. I think the public often feels lied to in situations like that because they're like, how would you know? And I don't think that's what law enforcement's trying to do at all. I think they're just trying to make sure, you know, and, you know, it's also possible that they know exactly what happened and they just, you know, haven't arrested the guy yet. So, you know, maybe they are operating with some information. But I think sometimes in these situations, I would almost, like, say, like, as a member of the public, sometimes you don't.

B (18:11)

Well, sometimes they. They phrase it very carefully. Like, we see no reason to believe that there's a threat to the public.

A (18:18)

I guess an isolated incident also could mean, like, this person's not currently rampaging. Yeah, you know, so I get that. I mean, like, I get where they're coming from. I just think Sometimes this can be something where the members of the public can feel like, oh, but yeah, but I mean, I don't know, like, so they. So, yeah. So anyone with information. So what they're, what they're looking for is this, this, this area, this chrome or more drive. They want to know if anyone has, you know, some, some kind of sighting that was off or something that seemed unusual or surveillance footage in the area for chrome or more Drive home security cameras, anything like that that would possibly shed some light on this. They're really looking for anyone who saw anything out of place in that area at the time, no matter how small. Could be. Could seem like maybe not a big deal. But I think at this point they're really trying to cast a wide net. And so if you have something specific and you're in that area or you know someone from that area and you want to share this information with them, you can call the Oconee County Sheriff's office at 864-638-4111. So check that out. So the case that it reminded me of because this also involves a murder of an elderly couple in a place associated with the name Oconee happened about a 2 hour and 30 minute drive away in Putnam County, Georgia. Again, this is just where my mind went. This is very unlikely to be related at all. Okay, so let's, let's not do the thing. I'm begging people in true crime to stop thinking everything's a serial killer. Sometimes it's a serial killer. Oftentimes it's not. I'd say it's usually not. I was shocked that the yogurt shop case turned out to be a serial killer, to be honest. So sometimes I'm gonna be wrong about this, but usually serial killers are exceptionally rare. They're really rare. So the numbers are against anything being a serial killer. Is that fair to say?

B (20:22)

It's definitely fair to say.

A (20:23)

We all watch. We love the true crime docs and the true crime podcasts and the criminal minds and all the true crime shows and everything's a serial killer. Criminal minds would have you believe that there's like more serial killers than normal people out in society just walking around going to the grocery store.

B (20:37)

Once again, as is your want you summarize the facts eloquently, but it's not true.

A (20:43)

There's not that many serial killers and there's fewer today than there were once because crime rates have gone down. Spoiler alert for Kevin's section.

B (20:51)

I don't do that to you. I don't Spoil your stories.

A (20:53)

I'm sorry. No, I'm just. I'm just teasing you. So this case occurred. Well, the. The bodies were found, I should say, on May 6, 2014. This involves Russell and Shirley Desmond. He was 88, she was 87. Elderly couple, and they were living in Putnam County, Georgia, in a house on Lake Oconee. And that was the day, unfortunately, the decapitated body of Russell was found in the garage of the home. His head was not at the scene, nor was his wife, Shirley. They were not found. She was not found immediately. But about a week later, her body was found in Lake Oconee. It had been weighted down with concrete blocks. His head has never been found. So as of today, as far as we know, the murders remain unsolved. And it's. Nobody knows who did this. There's some clues about what may have happened. So Russell's shirt collar had gunshot residue on it. So police believe he was decapitated after being shot in the head. That could be some kind of attempt to cover up billet evidence. Right. So police have kind of made statements about possibly believing that money may have been a motive, but at the same time, there was apparently nothing in the house that was stolen, at least as far as media reports say. So that's a very haunting and mysterious case where, you know, you just like, this is such a brutal, horrible crime against like, some elderly people. Like, what. What the heck happened? And unfortunately, it's unsolved to this day, but hopefully at some point there could be movement. That's one of those cases that's always. It never really quite. I don't wanna say broke through. It's gotten national media attention for sure, but it's never been one of the big, big cases. And that's because there's just been so little movement, I think. But I would love to see that one closed and fig, you know, what the heck happened there.

B (22:48)

Yeah, I would too, definitely.

A (22:50)

All right, so those are my cases now. I think I'm throwing it back to you to go on your. Your jaunt.

B (22:55)

Oh, you've completely spoiled them.

A (22:57)

I didn't spoil. There's no spoilers. It's a podcast.

B (23:04)

Let's start by revisiting a case we've discussed before. I think we've done an episode or two on it. And this is the case of Dr. Devon Hoover from Michigan, who was killed all the way back on April 23rd of 2023. You may recall that his body was discovered in a third floor crawl space in his home, wrapped in a blood soaked Carpet. I believe he'd been shot in the back of the head a couple of times. This was a beloved doctor in the Detroit area, originally from Indiana. A lot of people were very interested in this. He had a lot of people in his community who really loved and cared about him deeply.

A (23:58)

We interviewed one of them.

B (23:59)

We did. And my source for these most recent developments in the case is WXYZ out of Detroit. So the man who ultimately was charged with the brutal murder of Dr. Hoover is a gentleman named Desmond Burks. And his trial for this murder, after some delays, just recently got started. And it barely got started, because as we all know from our Anatomy of a Trial series, the first step in the actual trial is jury selection. So there were a couple of days of jury selection. And it's hard to get into the mind of someone who is on trial for murder. But it is easy to understand what it must be like to be sitting behind the defendant's table in a courtroom and watch people be selected who are ultimately going to be judging your fate and who will be responsible for making the decision as to whether you will ever be a free man ever again. And I can imagine the levels of stress when that happens. I can imagine looking into the eyes of the people being selected and trying to read and try to guess what they might think of you and how they will judge what you were accused of doing. So perhaps some of those things were a factor. But Mr. Birx, in the middle of jury selection, kind of abruptly decided to take a deal. He'd been charged with first degree murder. He took a deal for second degree murder. And because of that, he's a 35 year old man. He's going to face somewhere between 35 to 60 years in prison. So there was at least the possibility that he might get a sentence that will enable him to be a free man decades down the line. So he took this plea, and a lot of people were surprised by it. Even his own attorney, Gabby Silver, indicated she wasn't really expecting it. She said, quote, it was a bit of a surprise to all of us, but at the end of the day, it was his decision. Dr. Hoover's family welcomes it. Their statement says, quote, as a family, we are relieved to know that Desmond Burks pleaded guilty. We are glad that a long and difficult trial would not be necessary. Yeah, yeah, we've been to a couple of murder trials. Even if they end in the way you think they should end, with the verdict you think is appropriate, they are a very difficult process for the people involved.

A (27:16)

Wouldn't you say, I totally agree. And I'm just gonna say this because I think it's important for us to remember. Sometimes I fall into the trap of being like, oh, well, victims families want this or victims families want that. And there's certainly commonalities to what victims families want. And there's certainly conclusions and learnings that you can have from speaking with them, but they're not a monolith. And something like this is. I've heard victims families say that trial was cathartic. Trial was. We got all the information out there. We finally know more. And I think there's some sense of answers. So there's that. But the other side of it is some families feel re traumatized by the whole thing, and it's just another nightmare. So it's. It really depends on the families, on the case, on the personalities about what they want. So sometimes I think people reflexively condemn a plea deal because we've been conditioned by the media or whatnot to think of all plea deals as a disaster for justice and like letting someone off with a slap on the wrist. And I get that. And I think some case, in some cases, I agree with that. In some cases, that is what is happening. But in other cases, it is a prudent decision by the prosecutor and potentially by families to say, we don't want to go through this. We don't want to go through the expense time, emotional, you know, trauma of a trial. And from a prosecutor's perspective, I also have to imagine, like, there's no risk. There's always a risk with a jury. Even if you have the strongest case in the world, even if you have someone who's so obviously guilty, you don't know who you're going to get. I believe in the jury system, but there's still risk involved in it when you're the prosecution.

B (28:57)

Yeah. We can all cite cases. I think most of us who follow true crime probably believe, for instance, O.J. simpson was guilty of murder and he was acquitted.

A (29:06)

Yeah. And so there's. When you, when you have a situation like that, you have to weigh. You have to weigh things like that. You have to weigh. Do I throw away an opportunity to make sure this person is held accountable to some level, you know, versus. Yeah, I. So I think. And people can certainly criticize it and disagree with it, but I just don't think we should necessarily condemn it all the time. In some cases, obviously inappropriate, and I.

B (29:32)

Say it's possible he'd get a sentence which would allow him to one day be free again. But I'm not even sure how likely that is.

A (29:41)

So life expectancy is not as long in prison for people. I mean, the stress of being incarcerated is stress. And I'm not. I'm not saying that with any sympathy, really. I'm just more of saying, like, that's. Yeah.

B (29:51)

And if he got the maximum sentence, he'd be looking like 60 or 65 years.

A (29:54)

Right. What a horrible thing. This. This guy, Dr. Devon Hoover, really sounded like a great guy. You know, he sounded like. I always kind of had a soft spot for him because he was like a big historical preservation guy, and he was like, really into, like, like, making his house kind of like the epitome of. Of the time period it's from.

B (30:13)

So his house was beautiful.

A (30:14)

And, like, I just feel like I am a history nerd, too. So I totally respect that. And it's just. It's really sad what happened to him. This shouldn't have happened. And I just can't even imagine why you would do this to somebody. It's. It's sick and horrible.

B (30:28)

Yeah.

A (30:29)

So my heart goes out to his family.

B (30:32)

Mine does, too. And I hope this is the first step in them getting peace. So now we are going to move on to cover a case, in a way, it's also a Michigan case. In a way, it's an Indiana case. In a way, it's a California case. The Empire State of the West. No, it's covers this entire great land from sea to shining sea. And of course, you indiscreetly gave a bit of it away with your spoilers.

A (31:06)

Jesus.

B (31:07)

My source for this is ABC News, and basically the Independent Council on Criminal justice released a report that showed that in 2024 and 2025, there was a 21% decrease in the homicide rate.

A (31:27)

Nice.

B (31:28)

And that's kind of surprising because if you're like us and you kind of marinate in true crime, you hear all these terrible, terrible stories about murders and violence, but the fact of the matter is, the murder rate is going down. And that is good news. But it raises. At the same time, it raises a question. And that question is, why? What's happening to result in this decrease in crime? And you won't be surprised to learn that people who are on the Republican side of the fence say, well, obviously crime went down in this city because of things Republicans did. And then people on the Democratic side of the fence are saying, well, no, obviously things went down in these cities because of things the Democrats did. But the fact of the matter is, crime is not just going down in areas where Republicans did something, it's not just going down in areas where Democrats did something. So it's not the result of actions taken by particular politicians on one side of the fence or the other. It's happening everywhere.

A (32:42)

Well, what happens?

B (32:44)

I don't know. I'm saying it's an interesting question. Do you have any thoughts?

A (32:49)

I would leave that to sociologists and criminologists. They'd be way better informed about factors.

B (32:56)

Some people are saying crime rates kind of went up in the COVID era, so maybe things are just naturally going back down.

A (33:04)

Yeah, that makes sense.

B (33:05)

It's an interesting question, because if we don't understand why something is happening, how can we be assured that we can make it keep happening?

A (33:15)

Yeah, you want to know? So we can keep doing whatever is working. I will say this. I think I hear from so many people who think that crime rates are skyrocketed, and I just. That's not true. And that hasn't been true for years. I mean, there was a. There was a historic crime wave in this country from, I don't know, like, the 70s, 90s, things like that, and it's been going down ever since. I just want to, like, social media is not real life. Social media runs on algorithms that are designed to feed you the worst possible stories to get you angry and scared so that you keep clicking. They hire people to design these things in a way to ensure that you will keep clicking, because that is how they make money. And so if you're basing all of your understanding about crime in this country, in the United States, based on social media, you're not getting an accurate read of macro trends. I say that. I also say that every crime, every murder is horrifying and should horrify us. So it's not to say that, ignore murder, don't worry about it, everything's fine. It's just to say that just because you have a perception of, like, everything being lawless, anarchy, and, you know, just crazy stuff happening all the time, that doesn't make it so. And I would just. I hear from people all the time where they're like, oh, yeah, this is all, like, falling apart. And it's like, it's really not. I mean, I know why you think that, but it's not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't care about crime. I mean, again, one murders too many. But we also shouldn't exaggerate because that doesn't give us a very clear picture of the truth. But I would love to know what might be going into this decline. I mean, the COVID thing kind of makes sense to me on some level, but I'm not an expert, so hopefully we can keep doing it.

B (35:01)

Who knows? Who knows? Who knows what's going on? One of the people who did the study said, quote, there's never one reason crime goes down.

A (35:09)

Makes sense.

B (35:09)

He says we need to unpack and try to understand this. I also want to read this quote from the ABC article, quote, the council's report showed a decrease in the homicide rate in 31 of 35 cities, including a 40% decrease or more in Denver, Omaha and Washington. The only city included that reported a double digit increase was Little Rock, Arkansas, where the rate increased by 16%. So I'm curious about why is Arkansas different? Why is Arkansas bucking the trend?

A (35:44)

Yeah, what's going on, Arkansas? What's going on Little Rock? Yeah, you wonder what are they doing differently? Yeah, I mean, and there can be issues like, you know, and this gets hotly debated by criminologists. Right? Like issues like does increasing your police force size help? Does you know, are there, I mean, was a big problem in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Lead, the amount of lead in our society has gone down. Has that helped things make people less crazy? You know, like, what is going on? I don't know. I mean, like, I do not, I don't pose us as experts on this. Some people kind of get like, they're like, oh, well, maybe everyone's cooking the books. But like, I don't know. That feels like unless I see evidence of that, I'm not going to assume that.

B (36:33)

It's just so strange that it's happening everywhere. It's happening where you see conservative policies, it's happening when you see liberal policies. So yeah, it's great news, but I'd love to figure it out.

A (36:45)

Yeah. If any criminologists or sociologists are listening who have a theory, or if you just have a theory of your own, please email us@murdersheetgmail.com. i'd be curious to hear what you think because I, I'm. I don't know, but I, I think it's great. So.

B (37:00)

And I'm gonna give a spoiler for what you're gonna do on next week's cheat sheet. I think you're gonna do a couple of cases involving murders. See, how do you like that?

A (37:09)

I'm devastated.

B (37:10)

I'm. See, you wanted people to be surprised and I've just spoiled it.

A (37:15)

Good lord, you're so sensitive today.

B (37:17)

And also probably you'll make Some sort of crack about the cane train and serial theft.

A (37:23)

See, I think you're gonna be the one to do that.

B (37:25)

Well, the listener would just have to wait and see.

A (37:29)

Wait and suspect.

B (37:30)

Cause we gotta keep some mystery and some surprises.

A (37:33)

Okay, that makes sense. So I guess, are we gonna talk about our little anecdotes now?

B (37:37)

That's so sad. Why is it sad?

A (37:39)

I don't know. Hi, everyone. Here, my anecdotes.

B (37:48)

So as you may. I don't know. I don't know when you're listening to this, but as we record. It was a few days ago that Indiana University won the national championship in football.

A (37:59)

I'm so proud of them, of that wonderful team, the Hoosiers. Like, that was such an incredible. I've never. I just want to say I've never been into college football before I went to William and Mary. Our college football team was notoriously not very good. We did have one of the first, I think, cheating scandals in football in the country. But, you know, that's not really covering us in glory. So I knew that IU football was not supposed to be very good. And then, so, like, they, you know, you started hearing great things about this coach, and they started having these successes. So I started getting into it.

B (38:31)

You got more and more into it. And you said, kevin, for this final game, it needs to be, like a communal event for us. And you looked it up, and there is some sort of venue. I think it's normally used for hockey games, but it's in Fishers, Indiana. And they said you can come here for free and watch the game on television.

A (38:54)

I love a free event.

B (38:56)

No, you can come here for free, but if you want a bottle of Coke, that'd be $5.50, please.

A (39:02)

Well, we did not get any Cokes, but we did go for free.

B (39:04)

Yeah, but I looked at the prices, certainly. And we also parked, like, half a mile away, even though it was very cold, to avoid the parking.

A (39:12)

My face, like, hurt by the time we got in.

B (39:14)

So we go there, and there's a nice crowd there. And it is kind of a communal event, but at the same time, we were sitting in a section entirely by ourselves.

A (39:25)

Don't you like to be kind of the kind of isolated kids at the back of the class?

B (39:29)

So it was communal, but it was not communal. And at one point, there was a man dressed as a giant raccoon wandering the stands. And even he didn't come and talk to us.

A (39:41)

I think he was intimidated by our vibe. You were disappointed. You wanted to talk to the Raccoon.

B (39:45)

The raccoon is apparently a mascot of the hockey team, and I looked it up. The raccoon has a backstory. Kind of a shameful backstory, an embarrassing backstory, because apparently the raccoon's ancestors, we are told, were train robbers.

A (40:03)

So I guess he's related to the Reno brothers. Is that the thing? Even though they're a Jackson county phenomenon?

B (40:08)

I don't know. I just don't need to know. Like, oh, the San Diego chicken. His ancestors started the Great Chicago Fire. We don't need to know that kind of stuff. All it does is kind of. You know, it casts a pall over the.

A (40:21)

I don't know. It intrigued me.

B (40:22)

And also, I'm gonna judge the raccoon. I'm going to judge the raccoon for himself. I don't need to know his family history. We don't judge people by what their ancestors said.

A (40:32)

I was gonna say you were obsessed with that raccoon, and you really wanted him to come over so you could talk to him. You were very disappointed when he left. Kevin was talking about this a lot during the game. I just want to. I just want to. I feel like everyone should have this information because I had to deal with it. You.

B (40:46)

During the game. It was a close contest. Let me say we shouldn't judge raccoons by what their ancestor raccoons did. No, some of my ancestors. Okay, okay.

A (40:57)

Your ancestors did some bad things, so. No. I mean, I don't even know about that.

B (41:03)

You're casting aspersions on your in laws, which is.

A (41:06)

Well, didn't you tell me that your. Your parents said that they were related to the Surrats?

B (41:14)

Yes, it revolved in the Lincoln assessment.

A (41:16)

Not the good Surratt who plays for iu, but the bad Surrats. We pissed off a lot of people on that Ford's theater tour. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

B (41:25)

Yes, but we're really diverse.

A (41:26)

But let me just say this. So you said your. Your. Your parents. Your.

B (41:30)

Your.

A (41:31)

Your. My in laws. Your parents were like, oh, yeah, we were, you know, related to the Surrots and that you depressed everyone at a family gathering by saying they were basically laying out a case about why they were definitely guilty. And we went on a tour once, and they were like, what do you think? Do you think they were guilty or not? We were like. We were really obnoxious in the front. We're like, guilty.

B (41:51)

But let's get back.

A (41:52)

Okay. Sorry.

B (41:53)

To the actual story. So the game was a close game, and that Bothered you tremendously. You're sitting next to me again. The food prices are so high, would have driven us into bankruptcy. You haven't eaten anything, but you're like turning colors like you have indigestion. You're very, very stressed. You're saying, kevin, what should I do? Should I just leave? Because you were so stressed. And I said, if you want to go, go. And you stood up and you took a couple of steps and then you sadly sunk back down in your chair because you said you were worried that if you left and they lost, it would somehow be your fault.

A (42:32)

Yeah, I was having a lot of really delusional thoughts during this whole thing. It was awful. I felt sick to my stomach. I felt sick to my stomach and I'm a nervous person. I'm very anxious. I was sick to my stomach. And then I was also sitting there and having kind of like, oh, no. Like, maybe things would be going better if I brought my rosary. Like, I have no idea. Like, you know what I mean? Just totally, like, what am I talking about? I was really, I was really losing my mind, you know, because I was just like, I was so invested in this. I got so emotionally invested in it. I'm invested in the story of this underdog team then goes 160 and wins the national championships. And I just, I was, I did not know how this was going to end. I felt like they might. It was a very hard fought game. It was a very intense, physical game. And I just didn't, you know, I was like, man, when that guy flinched, remember that? And then they were like, then they like, oh my God. Like I.

B (43:27)

So maybe, maybe if somebody who was sitting next to you was trying to have talk to you about raccoons, maybe he was trying to calm you down a bit.

A (43:36)

That's not what happened.

B (43:39)

But you kept on saying, what do I do? What do I do? And I say, it's going to be okay.

A (43:43)

Also, what am I going to do?

B (43:46)

They're going to win and they did win.

A (43:49)

Why did you know they were going to win? You're very wise. You know, you really, you know, like whenever we're in a stressful situation, I do have that moment. I do have those times where I'm just like, oh God, this is all going to hell. And you're like, nah, it'll work out. And you're usually right.

B (44:02)

Yeah. I've made some predictions that you thought were pretty extreme and they turned out to be accurate.

A (44:06)

I remember, I mean, not to bring everything back to Delphi, but I remember When. When all the closing arguments, when it was over, you were like, yeah, he's definitely being convicted. And I was like, I don't know. And I was like, at first, when. When they didn't convict him the first day, because I felt the evidence was so obvious, I was like, well, it's a mistrial. And I think you were like, nah. And you were right. So, you know, I mean, that was a similar situation where it was just more of. I was like, I don't know about this. And you were like, yeah, no, I got it. But this one, I was more of, like, freaking out because I was. I don't know. I was just like, oh, they can't. They can't lose at the last minute. So heartbreaking.

B (44:43)

I. Yeah, you were beside yourself.

A (44:45)

I want my inspirational movie, you know? Like, I want that. They're just. And they just seem. They look so wholesome, you know? Like, I don't know. That would have been crushing if they lost. But I was really happy that they won. It was like. I was so relieved, and I've been, like, happy ever since. I just got. I don't know. It's just nice. I mean, again, again, like, I. I don't. I don't. I'm not that I'm not very knowledgeable about college football, but it was just such a nice story to watch, and, you know, I was really pleased for them. They just. They seem like nice guys, and, you know, what a cool experience for them to go through this. And I love the coach. He's so. He seems like just such an interesting.

B (45:23)

Each game, it went from saying, oh, there was a game. I'll look and see what the score was, to say, oh, I'll follow. I'll have live updates on Twitter or whatever to just watch it. The one before this, you found some guy on YouTube who was talking about the game as it was happening. And you watched that.

A (45:39)

Yeah, to get the insights.

B (45:40)

And this time you said, let's go to this place.

A (45:43)

I wanted to watch it with other people, but it was really neat, and it was.

B (45:48)

The best thing about watching it with other people is we don't know anything about football, so things would happen. We don't know if they're good or bad, but if the crowd we were with cheered, we said, okay, that's probably good.

A (46:03)

I think I knew a little bit. I tried to explain something to you, but it is hard to know all the little nuances and what things mean in the macro sense of is this trending in our favor or not?

B (46:16)

I understand Baseball. I don't understand football.

A (46:18)

It was so thrilling when Fernando Mendoza, like, dove over. Oh, my God. Wasn't that incredible?

B (46:23)

Yes, sir.

A (46:23)

And after that happened, I was like, you can't make them lose after that. You know, like. Like that can't happen. And then they lose. You know, like they. Ugh. God, that was incredible. And the blocked punt and all that. It was. It was really. It was really fun.

B (46:40)

And the other thing, I know you wanted to share. I. One day. I honestly don't remember what day it was. Maybe it was the day after this. We. We slept a little late, and our. Our new friend, Nick the dog, he's asleep right now.

A (46:54)

He's a snoozer.

B (46:56)

He first he got into the laundry and he got our clothes, our dirty clothes, and he brought them up to our closed bedroom door. And then he went and got our coats and also brought them to the closed bedroom door.

A (47:14)

He just got your coat? Not mine.

B (47:15)

Yeah. And he left them there like a pirate displaying his booty. So then when we opened the door, I guess we would have everything we needed to immediately take him on a walk.

A (47:25)

But it was also in a. Done in a very inconsiderate way, I want to point out, because he just. So this is what he brought. I'm just going to list it. He brought your coat. No. Well, he brought your shoe. One shoe that he chewed on. Then he brought your coat, which he. I want to note. You put your hand. We had treats in the pocket for him on his walks. You. You dip your hand into the pocket. It's all wet, totally empty. Got all the treats. He got a loaf of bread. Yes, he got a loaf of bread from the kitchen and ate that.

B (47:57)

A new loaf of bread.

A (47:58)

A new loaf of bread. It is.

B (48:00)

There were, like, two slices left.

A (48:02)

It is extremely expensive right now in the grocery store. We're trying to, like, save on. We're trying to save on stuff. We're trying to eat at home a lot. And this frigging guy, you know, stealing. I. I never thought stealing a loaf of bread was that. You watch, like, Les Mis and you're like, what's the big deal? Just leave him alone. Now I'm pissed about it. I'm like, his Javert. I'm going to, like, run him down for it. And he was, you know, it was just ridiculous. And then the worst. And then he has my bra up there. Why you have my bra? It's just like, leave it alone.

B (48:30)

You see, I was. I was going to be discreet.

A (48:32)

Well, I just think it's funny because it's like, that's what he thought we needed to start the day. And it was like, sir, you don't even know what's going on.

B (48:37)

See, I was trying to protect your modesty.

A (48:39)

Well, I appreciate that, but I don't care. It was really. It was very cute, but it was also really annoying because then I, you know, I was like, okay, well, that's the extent of it. Then I go downstairs and I go to my jacket and I put my hand in my pocket where there had been treats, and there's no pocket. He chewed the whole thing. He chewed the whole thing away. This is just. It's just a hole. He's so cute that we can't be mad at him. That's. That's like the level of cuteness he's operating on with all his little booty and his little treasures.

B (49:11)

I think he learned that from you because you. You often get up to shenanigans, but people can't be upset with you because you're so adorable.

A (49:17)

I never chewed on your shoes, sir. I'm not that adorable. He's. He's just. He's asleep right now. Oh, my God. He's so cute. He's. He's a great dog, and we're obsessed with him and he's made us really happy. So I think that's kind of where we are right now. But he's very naughty still. He's getting better. He's very food motivated. So thanks to everyone who kind of gave, like, training advice and things like that. He's. He's doing better. But when he gets overstimulated, he kind of forgets his manners. And that's kind of what we're trying to work on next to just kind of like, make sure the behaviors are consistently good and don't get thrown off just because he, you know, gets into a tizzy. Is that fair to say, Kevin?

B (49:59)

That's fair to say. Now, isn't it like a monster storm supposed to come this weekend?

A (50:03)

Yeah. Everyone's gonna stay safe.

B (50:04)

Kill us all.

A (50:05)

Yeah. Ending on a really positive note.

B (50:10)

We're all just going to be destroyed. Civilization is going to end.

A (50:14)

Good. Okay?

B (50:16)

That's what they say about time. They always exaggerate these things.

A (50:20)

I don't think the. Why are you trying to cast aspersions on meteorologists here?

B (50:25)

We have meteorologist listeners, and I love them all.

A (50:27)

We love them. We love them and we salute them and ignore.

B (50:31)

Kevin, civilization is not going to be destroyed.

A (50:33)

I hope it's not. I mean, I Hope. I don't think we would do well in a post apocalyptic environment. I'm not going to lie. But I think we wouldn't have to worry about clothes.

B (50:42)

I think Nick would take care of that for us.

A (50:43)

He would just destroy all our stuff and we wouldn't be able to replace it and then we'd die. He'd eat all our food and eat all the supplies. Yeah, he would not be a, he would not be an asset at this point. I will say though, everyone stay safe with the storm. I know it's going to be hitting a lot of the southern states apparently. And you know, just be careful, Be very careful.

B (51:05)

Words of wisdom.

A (51:10)

And Is there anything. Oh yeah, we have this event that's going to be taking place. Let me get this up. They in Ohio and this will be.

B (51:20)

Are we going to Nashville, Indiana?

A (51:23)

Yeah, but I think that's like a book club thing. Okay, well, I mean, I don't know, maybe they're advertising for it. If that's the case, I will look it up. There's a book club through, there's a number of book clubs actually through the Naughty Dog Books in Nashville, Indiana, including the Mystery Book Club. And they meet the last Wednesday of the month at 6pm and we will be coming on Wednesday the 28th for that.

B (51:48)

So is this bookstore actually owned by Nick?

A (51:51)

It feels like that might be a clue here. I would not be surprised. Maybe we could bring him and just cause chaos in the store and be.

B (51:59)

Like, well then we're not gonna do that.

A (52:00)

That's why you guys named it after. I'm just kidding. We're not going to do that. But I, I, I don't know if that's open to the public. I would, you know, see if you can, if you're in the area, join the book club or something. But we'll be there. That'll be really fun. We're also in March going to Marion, Ohio. Marion, Ohio, The Marion Library specifically at 6:30pm That's March 12th.

B (52:22)

And you're telling me that you think any town in this country named Marion is terrific and well worth a visit?

A (52:30)

Yeah, I mean, sure.

B (52:32)

I'm trying to undo the damage you did last week. Keep it moving.

A (52:38)

That's the big thing. And then if, yeah, if anyone has anything, you know, like I think we got some cool episodes coming up with different cases and whatnot. We're kind of seeing if we can do some more analysis in the, the case of the murder of Brian Thompson and you know, the Luigi Mangioni case in other words and other things. So if you have any suggestions on what you'd like to see us cover, please let us know. We're always open to cover it on a cheat sheet or to cover in its own episode or something like that.

B (53:03)

It looks like you are hanging up the Open for business sign.

A (53:09)

What does that mean?

B (53:12)

The murder sheet is open for business. Send us your suggestions. You're putting on your little business outfit. What is my what going to the door? You're hand painted open for business sign. You're hanging it up. You're looking at it, smiling proudly.

A (53:27)

Why do you always make me sound so ridiculous? I'm just saying I can't. Like why, why hit the button. God, between this and the whole Empire podcast of the Midwest, I just. You totally, totally lose.

B (53:46)

The button's right there.

A (53:46)

I just want to point it out for all the people who said Kevin's Kevin's raining on you so she doesn't get all crazy. I just want to.

B (53:52)

The button is right there. It's lit up my case. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

A (54:15)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

B (54:39)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

A (54:50)

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.