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- [00:00]
A
Fall's pretty much here and I for one am celebrating the cooler temperatures because this means I can finally break out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I love sweaters in general and these are two of my all time favorites.
- [00:15]
B
We love our sponsor Quince. We shop there all the time. We love getting luxury goods for less. They cut out the middlemen. These are fashion staples that will not go out of style and will really elevate your wardrobe for half the price of similar brands.
- [00:32]
A
Think washable silk tops, skirts, tailored denim, lots of cool options, all at shockingly low prices. I for one am about to go on another Quints shopping spree. Kevin's excited about it too.
- [00:46]
B
I'm desperate to have Anya buy another.
- [00:49]
A
Hat maybe, but right now I'm loving my black V neck sweater and dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable and easy to maintain. I think they look really stylish, but they're also just easy to sort of throw on with anything. And frankly, that's the kind of high quality, low effort vibe I'm going for this year. So get your Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $50 so we can all match.
- [01:12]
B
Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
- [01:36]
C
Quince.com msheet parlez tout hablaspanol parle Italiano if you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's Conversation Based Techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com wandery spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com wondery rules and restrictions may apply.
- [02:21]
D
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- [03:01]
A
Audible.Com wondery content warning this episode contains discussion of violence and murder. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be taking cases from Iowa, North Carolina, Georgia and Missouri. So all over the place.
- [03:20]
B
And I'd say the North Carolina one isn't really a case. It's just some learned people talking about matters of interest in a refined way.
- [03:29]
A
So you're. You're going to scholars.
- [03:31]
B
That was obviously one of mine.
- [03:33]
A
Oh, because you're so refined.
- [03:35]
B
Yes.
- [03:35]
A
You really see yourself a scholar?
- [03:37]
B
Well, I see myself pretty accurately.
- [03:43]
A
You see yourself as a scholar and I'm just a ruffian? Well, well, yeah, you have a very high opinion of yourself. But anyways, those are what we're. That's what we're doing. And we're recording this on August 21st because in the coming weeks, we're gonna be having a book come out. So we're trying to get ahead of schedule, but I don't believe this comes out until September 12th.
- [04:02]
B
But I assume that by this time everybody's just sick of us because are we gonna try to go on lots of podcasts and YouTubes and your TikToks and your Canvas and your BL guys and your Twitters? Just anywhere somebody wants to talk about our book, we're going to be doing it. And so you may be encountering us a lot.
- [04:21]
A
So we're going to be overexposed and everyone's going to resent and hate us by the end of this process. Is that what you're saying?
- [04:26]
B
That's what Colonel Parker, Elvis's manager, always cautioned against. You don't want to overexpose the merchandise.
- [04:32]
A
Yeah, that's fair. Well, I think Kevin's reading a book about Colonel Parker, Elvis's guy, and I think you wanted to say something about that.
- [04:46]
B
Oh, should I go ahead and say that now?
- [04:47]
A
Yeah, why not? You brought it up, and it's an interesting point.
- [04:50]
B
I brought it up seamlessly and flawlessly, much like a learned man, just like a scholar. I think it is one thing I've always enjoyed and I think it is something to enjoy. It's not something to be wary of. I like it when I get more information about a subject and it makes me reassess my views. Because in the long run, what I want is the truth. I want to really understand something as it actually happened. I don't want to have a false impression. And often when we are encountering things in books or in magazines or in newspapers or podcasts or what have you, we may not be getting a complete picture. And and so I feel we always need to be open to getting more information and reassessing what we think about things. And this is one reason I've really enjoyed the Colonel Parker book by Peter Guralnick, who also wrote a terrific two volume biography of Elvis back in the 90s. It's providing a lot more context for Colonel Parker. And he's not as much of a cartoonish or evil figure is he's often been portrayed in the past. And so I like that. I like reassessing things. There's something exciting about having your preconceptions challenged and saying, oh, I was wrong.
- [06:17]
A
Yeah, I think that's something that's a good thing to remember in true crime because information comes out. Maybe we have a different view of a case, but it's always good to ground things in reality and facts versus sort of assumptions or narratives.
- [06:34]
B
And it's also important to realize in true crime, when we get stories, a lot of times people who are telling those stories are only getting information from, like, one side. And you can't really judge things until you get both sides and something that may sound really convincing, it may not be so convincing if you get more information about it.
- [06:56]
A
Well said. All right, we ready?
- [06:58]
B
Yes.
- [07:00]
A
All aboard the cane train. Why did I say that?
- [07:02]
B
Let's just go see, I was trying.
- [07:05]
A
Get out of here. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [07:08]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [07:11]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [07:13]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.
- [07:21]
A
And this is the cheat sheet. Fabrics and flight risks.
- [07:25]
B
Sam, since you broach the subject so elegant. Elegantly. Should we, like, do a new version of the introduction where you say, I'm Anya Cain, I'm a train enthusiast? No, I'm Anya Cain. Boy, do I love the choo choo trains.
- [08:23]
A
I'm Anya Cain and my husband's weird. Who says weird stuff and then it catches on on our podcast.
- [08:30]
B
You've been on train. I've been with you on trains. And you're always very, very happy.
- [08:34]
A
No. What are you talking about?
- [08:37]
B
Remember we went on that murder train once?
- [08:40]
A
Didn't we both kind of like think it was kind of whatever. I like the idea.
- [08:47]
B
There was that bizarre incident when we were in Washington D.C. on a train and for some reason, I'm sure I had a good reason, I temporarily took off a shoe. And that just made you laugh with delight.
- [08:57]
A
Yeah. You're an odd man, as our listeners can attest to.
- [09:03]
B
I'm an odd man, says the conductor of the cane train.
- [09:07]
A
You invented the cane train out of whole cloth, sir.
- [09:11]
B
What is the first stop on the cane train's journey?
- [09:15]
A
We're going to Carroll county, but not our the one in Indiana that we're so familiar with and often enjoy visiting. This is Carroll County, Georgia. And this is a case where it has all the hallmarks to me of one of those things that's going to get really stupid on the Internet really fast. So that's exciting. Not really. When I was researching this case, I just found so much Internet discourse that made me want to bang my head against the wall. Cause it's like, wow, people are getting real emotional and not at all, you know, thoughtful or using their critical thinking skills. But that's true crime for you, I suppose. So sources on this one, Fox News, Fox 5, Atlanta, People magazine and TikTok. So that's fun. There is and I'm sure there'll be a lot of developments in the meantime, but just sort of giving people just a bit of an update or context on this case. A 17 year old young woman named Sarah Grace Patrick has been arrested and accused of murdering her mother and her stepfather. So Kristen and James Brock, her mother and stepfather and they were murdered in Carrollton Tyus, Georgia. And this was on February 20th of this this year. This 17 year old girl and her young, I've seen it reported five or six year old younger sister were, you know, the ones home and the little girl, the little sister was the one to find the bodies. So gruesome situation. They died of gunshot wounds. And what's interesting is Patrick, Sarah Grace Patrick was apparently according to a true crime person called, you know, calling her channel, allegedly reportedly on TikTok this young woman was reaching out to her and saying you should cover my parents case. Here's the situation, sort of raising awareness with the true crime influencer community about the case, posting videos of herself on social media, sort of crying. Whether or not you see that as performative, I'll leave it up to you on some level I think just these video platforms are going to be performative in nature, in general. Right. Like, I think it's, you know, for all the squawking about authenticity, you know, if you whip it out, a camera to film yourself doing something that's inherently performative. So I'm not even saying it's like she's faking emotions. It's just a performative act.
- [12:05]
B
And also, let's. Let's be honest. If you're on a platform, on social media, be it YouTube or TikTok, you want to get engagement. And people aren't going to really want to click if it's just you sitting there talking in a very bland way.
- [12:21]
A
Yeah.
- [12:21]
B
Oh, yes. I went to the store today and I saw that there was some boxes of cereal. You must have been. I went to the store today. You know what I saw? I saw boxes of cereal.
- [12:30]
A
She's got the, you know, the makeup, mascara smeared, all that stuff. So, you know, she definitely was doing stuff on social media around this, which, you know, that's. I don't necessarily read into that either way because on the one hand, you could say someone's trying to milk attention for their connection to a case, and maybe that looks weird if they're later arrested for that case. But we've interacted with plenty of victims, families who are trying to raise awareness. And the reason is because they want to raise awareness, possibly generate tips, keep pressure on law enforcement to put resources into their loved one's case. So it's not really, it's not really a point for or against her, in my mind, because people can have legitimate reasons for doing stuff like that, and people can have illegitimate reasons for doing stuff like that. We've increasingly seen in cases like the Delphi murders, in cases like the Karen Reed case, basically people who are defendants or people associated with the case, you know, trying to form alliances with people on social media to carry water for them. You know, back in the day, maybe if you get a newspaper editor on your side, you. You might be sitting pretty as far as how your case is going to be covered in the media nowadays, you don't need to do that. All you need to do is get some influencers or bloggers on your side and they will attack your enemies and champion you. So it's a strategy, but it can also be something that's a strategy for the right reasons, which is just to raise awareness of a case. So anyway, so that's where she, she came up, and then she was more recently arrested. And it's kind of Been blowing up. Her family seems divided. Some people in her family are, were asking for her not to receive bond because they said she was a flight risk. Her stepbrother, for instance, said that she would be a flight risk and things like that. And people were saying, you know, that, you know, this, if she can do this to her family, she can, you know, would be a possible risk to others. She might intimidate her younger sister as far as witnesses go. And then her, her family, sort of her biological father and people on that side are saying she, she's got to be innocent and she would never do this. And they were, you know, she's a Christian and stuff. And again, that's one of those things. It's like, yeah, we all know that Christians have never ever done anything bad. So like, you know, when people emphasize that at a bond hearing, I just roll my eyes. I'm sorry. And I say this as a believer. I say this as somebody who is a, you know, I'm a Catholic. Like, but if you hear me at my bond hearing for cereal, being like, I'm Catholic, I couldn't have done this. You know, Catholics might have done some stuff. I don't know, like, I don't know, I get that they have to do that, but that's also just makes me roll my eyes. The other thing that makes me roll my eyes is that people on the Internet are already, oh, she's a young girl, she's 17. No way she could have ever done it. Carroll County's corruption, you know, why don't we just see what the evidence is? If it's, if it's a weak case, there's a good chance the jury would, you know, be not swayed by it if there's a competent defense put on. But why are we making up our mind that she must be wrongfully accused like two minutes into this? I just don't even understand that. What's the point of that? What do you think?
- [15:43]
B
I think there's a fine line there because you don't want to make up your mind that, oh, this person is definitely innocent. They're definitely wrongfully accused. But we do need to keep in mind there's a principle in this country of presumed innocent until proven guilty. So you also shouldn't just automatically assume that a person is guilty. You really do have to wait. You have to hear the evidence.
- [16:05]
A
The problem is empty minded people hear innocent until proven guilty and they take that as a permission to become a fan of an accused murderer. And that's not what innocent until proven guilty Means? It just means, let's see what happens at the trial. And at the trial we should have a strong standard of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And ultimately it's up to the jury. And we don't need to. We don't need to join support groups, we don't need to wear T shirts, we don't need to, you know, just behave like fools. We need to essentially wait and observe and discuss the facts. And if we're looking at the facts as they come out and we have questions, ask them and then see what's presented ultimately at trial, which is the most important thing, and see what happens.
- [16:55]
B
Innocent to proven guilty, we should also stress, basically is a legal concept that applies in the courtroom, certainly people who aren't members of the jury. We are allowed, following the case, to make up our own conclusions and have our own opinions. But with that said, let's think back to what I was saying about Colonel Parker. We can have our opinions based on what we read in the press, but we should be willing to revisit those opinions as more and more information comes out as the legal process moves on.
- [17:27]
A
Yes.
- [17:28]
B
So certainly there have been many times when I followed cases and I come to an opinion, oh, this person sounds like they're guilty or what have you. But I'm always willing to reassess that opinion as the trial or what have you progresses.
- [17:43]
A
Or yeah, if evidence gets suppressed, then you might say, well, maybe they're guilty, but you know they're not going to get convicted because it's just not enough evidence. Or you might say, I just don't know. Either way, it's okay not to know things. Or you might say, I don't know. There's some pretty good other suspects and maybe they make more sense than this defendant. So you can have your own thoughts. I guess. I just. What I see right now is people immediately jumping on the conspiracy train, Right? It's a frame job. Listen, we're all trying to save money without compromising on quality these days. Frankly, Kevin and I need to ensure that Lani gets her fancy dog food brand, which is for lap dogs, even though she's a rather formidable looking lady.
- [18:22]
B
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- [18:51]
A
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- [19:11]
B
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- [19:31]
A
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- [19:57]
B
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- [20:17]
A
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- [20:39]
B
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- [20:49]
A
Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like simply safe. And I think it's interesting, I saw a lot of talk about her age and the fact that she's a young woman and you know, teenage girl killing family members and people being like that couldn't happen. Well, I would like to raise several different incidents. The 2003 homicide of Alan Johnson and Diane Johnson who were murdered by their 16 year old daughter at the time, 16, Sarah Johnson. And that was over a conflict over her dating a a man they did not approve of. There were the Richardson family murders In Alberta, Canada that was planned by a 12 year old girl, Jasmine Richardson and her 23 year old boyfriend. So that's terrifying. The Caffey family murders in Alba, Texas and that was 16 year old Aaron Caffey who organized that. Her father Terry survived but her mother and younger brothers were killed. And again this was with the involvement of her boyfriend. In 2010 there were the, there was the Pan family attack and murder. Jennifer Pan got, you know, her boyfriend involved and ended up killing her mother and really injuring her father. Ashley Martinson, she was somebody who was living with her mother's stepfather and step siblings and a half sister and whatnot in Wisconsin. And she had a very negative relationship with her stepfather who could be verbally abusive according to reports. And you know, that ended up being a situation where she shot him through a door and then killed her mother with a knife. And. Yeah, so I mean there's a number of cases where stuff like this can happen. That doesn't mean that that's what this, this young woman has done because again, we don't have the evidence, we don't know the evidence against her yet. We're gonna have to see is the evidence enough? Did police get the wrong person? Do they get the right person? We don't know yet. There's no point in making someone a cause celebrity without, you know, but it's just, you know, the Internet. So let's, let's use this tragedy as fodder to form a social club around, you know, being a fan of a murderer. So where TikTok comes in, I thought this is interesting. I mentioned this tiktoker. She, she posted like this screenshots of the different, you know, communication she had with this young woman. She seemed pretty freaked out about this communication. But you know, again I don't, I don't really look at that either way because that could be innocuous or not. I don't think it's good to ever jump into something and say this defendant is a hundred percent guilty and nothing would ever change my mind because we don't know the evidence against her yet. Let's, let's see what that is. I also think it would be a mistake to do the opposite and say nothing would convince me that this, you know, wonderful young woman, you know, like went to church a lot so therefore she couldn't have committed these murders. That's, that's not good either. What's good is to just kind of listen to facts as they come up and then at the end of it sum up what you think is important. And that's the side that you come down on ultimately. And recognizing that ultimately what's truly important is the jury's opinion and what evidence they're hearing. Right. Because there can be stuff out there that's not going to be brought into court. And, you know, that might influence the public, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should ever influence the jury.
- [24:33]
B
Exactly.
- [24:35]
A
So that's that situation. But, yeah, just true crime's at it again, folks. What's next?
- [24:46]
B
Going to the great state of Iowa.
- [24:49]
A
Wow.
- [24:50]
B
That's where the Iowa caucuses are every four years.
- [24:53]
A
I've never been to Iowa.
- [24:55]
B
Iowa State Fair. The mystery writer Max Allan Collins lives in Iowa.
- [25:01]
A
Oh, Flannery o' Connor went to the Iowa Writers Workshop. Right.
- [25:06]
B
A lot of great writers went to the Iowa Writers Workshop. So it's a great state. God bless Iowa. I feel like I should pump up these states when we mention them on the.
- [25:17]
A
So we're not, like, maligning them, like, oh, crimes happen here. But you know what? They're pretty great because.
- [25:23]
B
Because everybody. All of our states are great. Wow. There's one exception, which I'm not going.
- [25:28]
A
To say, oh, I know what you're talking about. But also, here's a question, and it's not the same when I was talking about the cause. I think all our states are great, too. Are all the sports teams from all the states great?
- [25:40]
B
Don't you think they're all just doing their best? And it's all about team spirit and coming together for a bigger cause. Bright eyes, clear hearts don't lose. Is that what they say on Friday Night Lights?
- [25:55]
A
Just move along.
- [25:57]
B
You brought it up. I think everybody.
- [25:58]
A
I regret it.
- [26:01]
B
Sports is like something, something. The human spirit, something, something inspirational. Something, something. Bigger heights can accomplish things that you never knew you could. Thanks, coach.
- [26:15]
A
I thought you were the coach in this situation. But you're thanking yourself.
- [26:19]
B
And even. Even Michael Jordan needs a coach. So I'm trying to have all these little sports cliches that I've heard over the years.
- [26:27]
A
Thank you. I'm sure our listeners really appreciated that. Maybe some of them needed that speech.
- [26:33]
B
Rudy, that was a sports movie.
- [26:34]
A
I really liked the theme song from Rudy. Has anyone ever listened to that? I find that kind of inspirational. You know, a guy might be, like, cleaning the house and listening to that and feeling like, yeah, I'm doing it, so whatever. That's just an insight into my sad life. Go ahead.
- [26:48]
B
And you unironically loved the baseball movie Bull Durham.
- [26:52]
A
I unironically love that movie. That was a great movie. Let's move along to the crimes.
- [26:59]
B
Well, I wanted to. You seem to want to talk about sports, so you're the conductor of this train.
- [27:05]
A
Well, I'm signaling onto the next station.
- [27:10]
B
The Iowa Cubs. The Cubs have a farm team in Iowa, so Iowa's a great place. So my source for this is the Iowa Capital Dispatch, and this case involves a tragic murder where a woman named Angela Pritchard was murdered by Christopher Pritchard, who had a history of domestic violence, sorts of complaints against him. And there were actually no contact orders. And Ms. Pritchard. Angela Pritchard had done what she should do, and she obtained these no contact orders in order to protect herself. So she worked through the system as she should. Those orders don't seem to have been enforced with much, if any, rigor, and she ended up getting killed tragically.
- [28:03]
A
It's outrageous.
- [28:05]
B
And that's not really the end of it, because now her family has filed a lawsuit against the police for failing to enforce those orders. And I think I've never talked to this family, so I don't know what their motivations are, but I would guess that a big chunk of their motivation is that they want to set an example to other police departments.
- [28:34]
A
Yes. Good for them.
- [28:35]
B
Because they would want other police departments to realize if we don't enforce these orders and someone gets killed, we might be held accountable.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah, that's exactly what they should do.
- [28:46]
B
Because obviously, it's very unfortunate nothing can be done to bring Angela Pritchard back to life. But maybe other people could be saved if these orders were taken more seriously.
- [28:58]
A
Yes, they could be. If we took domestic violence, if we took these breaches, there's no good reason for somebody to be doing this to their estranged or former partner. If we took this stuff seriously and that people were incarcerated and, you know, these were kind of penalized in a more extreme way, then I think lives could be saved.
- [29:22]
B
No question about it. So they file. Pardon me. They file. Pardon me. They file this suit. The suit was dismissed by a judge. The judge says, looking at the facts, I'm not sure there's a cause and effect relationship here that can be really established. We can't say that, oh, they didn't enforce this order, therefore the murder happened. For all we know, there was this one time when they did try to enforce it. Couldn't we say them enforcing it actually caused the murder? So that was the judge's argument, and the family is appealing the dismissal. And they've made some interesting points. They've Pointed out, for instance, that at the time of the murder, Christopher Pritchard was actually out on bail.
- [30:16]
A
Are you kidding me?
- [30:17]
B
For a felony offense. And that bail could have been revoked at any time for unlawful behavior such as, you know, violating court orders.
- [30:27]
A
Would that have been up to the police or the prosecutor's office? Or I guess maybe the probation, I don't know.
- [30:33]
B
The police allowed Pritchard to, quote, get away with another class C felony after he placed a tracking device in Angela's car. A serious breach of his bail requirements that would have resulted in prolonged pretrial incarceration and a 10 year prison sentence if convicted. There were at least four instances where he violated the restraining order. Those instances were ignored by police. The Jackson county attorney, Sarah Davenport, actually nine days before the murder, contacted the police saying, I'm worried he might be trying to do some bad behavior. Nothing really happened. And they also point out that during this lead up to the murder, they didn't arrest him, but they found time to do other things like investigate a complaint of a sick looking raccoon.
- [31:37]
A
Oh, are you kidding me?
- [31:38]
B
And so the implication is we can't say, the police can't say, oh, if only we had more resources, we could have done this.
- [31:45]
A
Like, oh, yeah, there were so many murders we were dealing with. No. Yeah.
- [31:49]
B
And the attorneys for the family are suggesting that perhaps one reason that the police did not take these complaints more seriously is because Prichard might have been a friend of people on the police force.
- [32:05]
A
Jesus.
- [32:07]
B
So you can't sue the police or the government for a murder unless you can establish that the murder is the result of a danger that was created by the state. And so the family's argument is, well, by not enforcing these lawful orders and letting this behavior go on unchecked, the state was essentially creating a danger, and that that danger therefore resulted in the death of Miss. Mrs. Pritchard. What are your thoughts?
- [32:42]
A
I mean, without having examined this case in depth and without knowing all the facts, my inclination is those sound like some pretty salient arguments to me. And I would like to see police agencies responding more proactively to instances like this because it's pretty well documented that when someone is doing this, when someone is, you know, escalating, when someone is continuing to stalk an estranged partner despite court orders, there's a very good chance that that's going to end very badly. So I don't know why you wouldn't want to get ahead of that or prevent that. You know, your. The job is to serve and protect. Right. So where Was her protection here? That's what I'd want to know. Again, maybe this different facts that complicate it more. I'm not saying like. But my instinct would be. I commend the family for. For fighting this fight. This is ridiculous. This shouldn't. I mean, this man obviously was a problem and obviously should have been taken care of.
- [33:44]
B
And putting a tracking device on the.
- [33:46]
A
Car, I mean, that's a horrifying. What a horrifying way to die. Like, you know, you're being stalked by this, you know, nut, and, like, he's coming to kill you. I mean, there's no. So, yeah, it's horrible. And I. I think in some. I mean, I. I think, you know, talking about police, right, Is. Is complicated because, you know, different agencies, different officers, you might gonna. Maybe results will vary, right? So you might have some agencies that would have jumped on this and done the right thing and she would be alive. And then others, you know, I mean, if he was actually friends with a lot of people in the department that's concerning, you know, and. And that's that there needs to be standards. You shouldn't. It shouldn't be like, you're. You live in one town and you're dead, and then you live in the other town, and they would have actually taken care of it, and this guy would have gone to prison for a substantial amount of time. And, you know, I. I also just think penalties around stuff like this should be increased by legislators. Like, we should. Like, there should be situations like if you are doing some of these things and stalking in this way, that you end up incurring a hefty prison sentence, and that's like a guarantee. And it just. You're. You're put away because you shouldn't be around. You shouldn't be out to hurt people if you're doing this. So I think that's good. I think that would. That would be good. And it would be good if I. I hope. I hope the appeals court keeps this thing going and that there's accountability for this, because it sounds like the ball was really dropped to a point where it's baffling to me. This isn't a situation where, like, he's putting a tracking device on her car and that's not being responded to. Like the, you know, the local attorney is sending them stuff, like a warrant's issued and they're messing around with some raccoon. What.
- [35:33]
B
I'd like to mention some of the arguments that the city attorneys are making, because I'm curious as to how you'd respond to those arguments.
- [35:42]
A
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know.
- [35:46]
B
Lawyers. I'm quoting from this article. Lawyers for the city argue that even if the police had arrested christopher pritchard prior to the murder, this does not guarantee that the tragic outcome of this case would have been any different. Noting that prosecutors or judges might have dismissed any case initiated by the officers. What's your response to that?
- [36:05]
A
What?
- [36:07]
B
So they're basically saying.
- [36:08]
A
I know what they're saying.
- [36:09]
B
Even if we did our job, maybe someone else wouldn't have done our job. Maybe someone else would have dropped the ball. So therefore you can't hold us responsible.
- [36:17]
A
Then maybe then that. I. That doesn't really hold a lot of water. You're still supposed to enforce the laws. And it was pretty clear that he was violating his parole, he was violating her rights by stalking her and putting devices on her car. So, yeah, that seems like. That seems stupid. Like, that's like. I mean, that's like one step removed from them being like, well, maybe she would have died anyway because maybe a car would have hit her that day. Like what? You know, this is like, it doesn't. Does that seem like a compelling argument to you, Kevin?
- [36:46]
B
No. I want to do another argument. Quote I'm quoting from the article, Plaintiffs asked this court to hold the defendants liable for an intentional murder committed by a third party. Implied in this demand is that the defendants be held liable for factors well outside their control. This court should have formed the district court's ruling. So they're saying we can't be held responsible for a murder we didn't commit.
- [37:09]
A
I mean, that's more compelling to me, because they're saying, well, we didn't want him to commit murder. And, you know, it wasn't like any of us were saying, do it or something. But at the same time, again, it seems like the point of the lawsuit is more of what they didn't do and perhaps the fact that they did not take the ample opportunities that they had to incarcerate this man before he could act upon his murderous impulses.
- [37:34]
B
So. So that's where the case currently stands. Oral arguments are yet to be scheduled to be in the u. S. Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit.
- [37:43]
A
And listen, this is a lot of complicated legal matters, right? I mean, I'm not. I'm not saying it's a clear cut case as far as the law goes, because there. There's protections for, you know, public officials, there's protections for police when it comes to stuff like, you know, and there are reasons for that and maybe some criticisms of that, but that's the way it is. But it's just far as like the common sense, like, just like looking at reality side of things. I feel like this raises a lot of concerns with me as far as what was not being done. And this is stuff to get serious about because the people who are doing domestic violence are also often like, linked to like things like mass shootings and whatever and other types of violence. So like, you know, if we throw these, you know, bottom of the barrel abusers away and throw away the key, then I don't, you know, I think society gets better personally. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I don't, I like, it's like I, oh, no, what a loss. You know, this guy is stalking his ex wife and like ramping up to killing her. If he goes away before he gets to do that, then that's fine by me personally.
- [38:54]
B
So with that said, I return the keys to the train.
- [38:57]
A
Is there a key to a train to you?
- [38:59]
B
Would this be like one of those trains in Back to the Future part three where it's like a flying train? Is that what you've got? Maybe that way you would avoid the Chunnel. But where are we going now on this train now that you have the keys in hand?
- [39:13]
A
We're going to Missouri.
- [39:16]
B
Isn't that the show me state?
- [39:18]
A
I don't know.
- [39:19]
B
The home of president. The former home of President Harry S. Truman. Mark Twain.
- [39:26]
A
Ulysses Grant lived there for a while. Kansas City Royals in a cabin they called hardscrabble. But anyways, let's see.
- [39:32]
B
You love the barbecue there.
- [39:34]
A
I've never been to Missouri, but you.
- [39:36]
B
Would love the barbecue there.
- [39:39]
A
Okay, you're so weird.
- [39:42]
B
Well, I'm just saying we need to build up these states.
- [39:45]
A
You're worried that we're going to knock the state's confidence if we talk about some bad stuff happening there.
- [39:50]
B
I just want. Every state is great.
- [39:52]
A
Okay, well, I know there's one state that you don't like, but we're not going to go into that.
- [39:57]
B
Not going to go into that. That state can be drummed out of the union.
- [40:00]
A
That's a horrible thing to say. What's wrong with you? Okay. And I just want to clear. I, I love all 50 states. So I'm not. Kevin does not speak for the both of us on that matter. People are always like, do you guys agree about every case? Well, not about this situation. So let's go to a case we've been covering sort of intermittently on the Cheat sheet is a case out of Missouri, out of St. Louis County. And it is the case of Brendan T. Yeager. This was a guy who was going around and stalking women in area parks. He's from Clayton, Missouri, and he has been, you know, going through the pre trial process of this. But recently one of our listeners let us know that there's been a development. So to recap, he was. In July, the court ordered for the. For the Missouri Department of Mental Health to get progress notes, field violation reports, case summaries, education records, just various things. Substance abuse treatment of Yeager from Mercy Hospital in St. Louis as well as St. Louis County Jail and other various treatment providers. Because on June 12, a mental health evaluation was put into place for him. They were trying to figure out if he was, you know, suffering from a mental disease or defect or, you know, whether he can go to court at trial or not with this case for, for stalking and chasing these women in parks. And then the order also had this language. Quote, the court has further ordered that Missouri Department of Mental Health provide a recommendation as to whether defendants should be held in custody in a suitable hospital facility for treatment pending determination by the court on the issue of mental fitness to proceed and a recommendation as to whether defendant, if found by the court to be mentally fit to proceed, should be detained in such hospital facility pending further proceedings, end quote. And so this is, this is what's happened from there. So on October. I'm sorry, on August 5th, a note to the clerk appeared on the docket saying mental exam filed, forensic evaluation, electronic filing, certificate of service. They got that back. Then on August 6, the waiver of right to second psychiatric examination with respect to section 552020 was filed by William Goldstein, and that's the attorney for Jaeger. And on the 8th, the state of Missouri also waived its right to request a secondary mental health examination. So what happened on the 12th is that the case was suspended. So this is what the order said. The court having examined said reports and being advised in the premises, finds pursuant to 552020 and 552030 that the defendant, Brendan Yeager is now, is not now mentally fit to proceed. The case is suspended. So ordered. Honorable Ellen H. Ribado. So the case against him has been suspended. So I want to talk with you about what fit to proceed in a legal context means, because we. There's a lot of complications around things like mental health in the criminal justice system. And like this isn't the same thing as an insanity defense. It means something very specific. But what. What this means, I think people would be curious. Does this mean that this guy's out there again because the case has been suspended? I actually took the liberty of calling the St. Louis prosecutor's office, and I asked them, is he out? Like, what? They say, no, he's not out. No, he would be. He's going to be held. I mean, basically this means he continues to be held is what they told me. So I'm sure that's a relief to area women who, you know, like to go to parks without being stalked by some guy. But this is. So let's talk about mental fitness when it comes to going to trial. So what does that mean? Why is it important, Kevin, for a defendant to be mentally fit when it comes to their own defense at trial?
- [44:35]
B
Well, first of all, mentally fit doesn't necessarily mean that they're able to do complex geometry equations or explain the E equals MC squared or anything like that. It basically means that they understand the proceedings and are able to talk with their lawyer and perhaps help the lawyer in the preparation of their case. Because we want to lean towards being as fair as possible to the defendant. And it really doesn't seem fair on any level to try a defendant for a crime if the defendant is not able to be there and help his lawyer with the case. You know, a defendant should be able to, like, lean over and say, oh, this witness who is saying that they're lying, for instance, you want to have that sort of input from your client. And if you don't understand what's going on, you can't provide that sort of input.
- [45:29]
A
So when sometimes people see this, they're like, oh, this person's getting away with it. But it's. It's actually just means that there can't be a trial yet because they've been ruled seemingly through this mental evaluation, which we don't know what it says to not be able to assist with their own defense. They're not mentally fit for trial. It does not mean things go away, or it shouldn't mean that things go away. And it sounds like, again, from what I got from the prosecutor's office, that he will still be not. I don't know where he's locked up or if it's through the Department of Mental Health or if it's in a jail. When I looked him up as an inmate, I couldn't find him. But again, if he's in jail, I don't even know if he would appear. So it's not like he's gonna be, like, released out and unleashed on the public once more. It's more that he. The trial will not commence until he is deemed fit. So what you would typically see here, and Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, but just. I remember, you know, just speaking with people, you. You. There would be attempts at treatment to get him prepared to go to trial, to get him fit, to get him to that point where he can participate in his own defense. Yes, we saw this in the Lori Valo case. Right. She was deemed unfit to go to trial, and then eventually she was deemed fit. So there would be efforts to get him to that point first. And then now insanity defense is different. That has to do with his state of mind at the time of the crime. So that would have to do with, you know, he didn't know what was going on. He. He thought he was chasing dragons instead of women, and he was trying to stop the dragons from burning down the town. And he just had no idea what was going on and was totally insane at the time. And then maybe he went back home and was saying, hey, there's some dragons in the park today. Wow, what a day. So he's not trying to get away with it. He's not covering things up. He's not, you know, it does. An insanity defense does not mean I have schizophrenia. It has to be. I have schizophrenia and was psychotic at the time of this crime, and I couldn't help myself, essentially.
- [47:35]
B
Exactly.
- [47:37]
A
That would be an insanity defense. It's very narrow. It's. It does not. Not a lot of wiggle room for that. And if you do something bad, even if you have underlying mental health conditions and you try to get away with it afterwards, that's going to really put a hamper. That's going to hamper your insanity defense because people will say, okay, but if you were so insane, why did you go in, hide the weapon? Or why did you run, you know, away from these people? Like, there would be holes to pick in that. So, yeah, so I'll be curious to see what happens, but. Because we had some Missouri listeners who were interested in this situation. Thank you guys for keeping us updated. I just wanted to give an update into this case we've been following. So, you know, certainly sounds like there's some issues here, mentally or otherwise. But we'll see what happens, and we'll see if this ends up being something where somebody is, you know, goes for an insanity plea later on.
- [48:35]
B
So on to North Carolina. Yes, I've been to North Carolina. Have you?
- [48:40]
A
I've been to North Carolina. Yeah, it's a beautiful state.
- [48:44]
B
Beautiful state. The great town of Charlotte. I've been. And the people there were just incredibly friendly to an amazing extent.
- [48:53]
A
I think you said to the point where you were uncomfortable.
- [48:57]
B
We're supposed to be building up these states.
- [48:59]
A
Okay, so you're just going to whitewash that part where you're like, yeah, they were too friendly.
- [49:04]
B
They were very, very, very friendly.
- [49:06]
A
Aggressively friendly, I think. I think Hoosiers are friendly. Indiana folks are very friendly.
- [49:13]
B
At the time I was in North Carolina. This was before I knew you there. There was. For some reason, McDonald's was running a special buy one sandwich, you get a second sandwich. And as I'm going into McDonald's to enjoy that fine deal, a man comes out and he says, oh, McDonald's has this deal, buy one, get one free. If you want to save yourself some money, here's my extra sandwich, sir. Guy didn't even know me, and he's, like, offered to give me food.
- [49:45]
A
Like, that's really nice. That sounds like your ideal start of a friendship, but you were disturbed.
- [49:53]
B
Well, I've always been reading True Crime. Who knows what he did to that food? But a very friendly state. And my source for this is Popular Mechanics, which, of course, I often peruse. Popular Mechanics as you do.
- [50:08]
A
No, I don't. I'm not a math or science person either, am I?
- [50:13]
B
And do you remember Anya, I think both of us, when we were very young, maybe sitting on our mother's knees, we're reading, like, Sherlock Holmes stories. And there's always details in the Sherlock Holmes story, like, before the story gets going. It's like Holmes and Watson just sitting around, just shooting the breeze. And Holmes will often say things. Well, you know Watson, I wrote a monograph on 57 different varieties of cigar ashes.
- [50:39]
A
Yeah, he's always doing the monographs.
- [50:41]
B
Well, this made me think of that because there was a new study in the journal Forensic Science International where a group of North Carolina State University researchers are studying how blood acts on different types of fabrics, with the thinking that if we do this and we see how blood reacts on each specific type of fabrics, it will make it easier to investigate crimes.
- [51:08]
A
That sounds helpful.
- [51:10]
B
So the one of the authors says when blood strikes fabric, it leaves a stain. But it can be difficult to accurately assess things like how quickly blood was traveling when it struck the fabric. Was it going fast? Slow? Did someone just brush up against the blood? It's hard to tell because once the blood comes into contact with the fabric, it wicks across the surface of the fibers in the fabric. Spreading out. So they're studying all this, they're doing the Lord's work, I'm sure at some point down the line. And this will help in the solution of some cases.
- [51:41]
A
Love that. That's wonderful. Modern day Sherlock Holmes is.
- [51:46]
B
That's pretty much what I had to say.
- [51:48]
A
Well, you had a not depressing story, so that's good.
- [51:50]
B
Yeah, I always want to end with an uplifting thing. And speaking of stories, Anya is going to read some promotional announcements and if you stay tuned through that, there'll be a little story. I think it's my turn this week.
- [52:04]
A
Yes. Yeah. I'm excited for your story.
- [52:07]
B
You know, the story I'm going to tell.
- [52:09]
A
So before we get into that, let's talk about some stuff. Obviously, our book is out at this point right now. We're talking to you on August 21st, so it's not out yet. And I'm like, you know, kind of nervous and ah, you know. But at the same time, when you hear this, it's going to be already out, so we'll see what happens. If you haven't gotten it yet, it's available on Amazon if you want to. It's available through Simon Schuster, it's available through bookshop.org that's a great way to support the local businesses, local bookstores. But if you have a, like, beloved local bookstore in your town, just call them and say, hey, can you order it or do you have it right? So that's a good way to support your local bookstores. So we always like doing that. It's available for ebook purchase, it's available for hardcover purchase, and it's available for audiobook purchase. And the dulcet tones of one Kevin Greenlee are gonna be what you're hearing in the audiobook. He did such a wonderful job doing this. I am so proud of him.
- [53:10]
B
All the times when we talked about, oh, we're doing something mysterious on a trip, we were going to Detroit so I could read this book.
- [53:17]
A
Yeah, you did a wonderful job. I was so impressed with you. Kevin sounds marvelous. He's a wonderful voice. It's just amazing. He did wonderful. So that's the audiobook and. Yeah, that's kind of the situation. We are going to be doing a number of events around this, correct?
- [53:34]
B
Yes, a number of events.
- [53:38]
A
A number of events. Let me pull them up so I can. Today, when you're hearing this, it should be September 12th, and this can be an event at the Greenwood library. And then September 15th, there'll be an event at Viewpoint with the bespoke events in Columbus, Indiana through with collaboration with Viewpoint Books. And we'll put out. We have an events page on our website.
- [54:01]
B
Need to buy a ticket for that, right?
- [54:03]
A
Yes. And as I said, we have an event page on our website and we'll include the information on that and where to buy a ticket and whatnot.
- [54:10]
B
Columbus, the Athens of the Prairies.
- [54:13]
A
Yes. Yes, it is. So who's the Sparta of the Prairies then? What?
- [54:19]
B
You tell me.
- [54:20]
A
I don't know. Who is like Columbus's more hard edged rival?
- [54:24]
B
Columbus is pretty hard edge.
- [54:26]
A
Which Indiana city really likes to make war? I don't know. We're going to find out.
- [54:32]
B
Maybe we're a very peaceful place.
- [54:34]
A
Tell us what you think, Zam Doff. Who's the Sparta of the Prairies? Oh, man, what are we even talking about? Oh, yeah. We're going to do a signing at Noblesville at the Noblesville Barnes and Noble on Saturday, September 20th. We're going to the Kendallville Community Learning Center September 26th.
- [54:57]
B
And prior to that appearance, we will be making an appearance in Milford at the Grops Fish Shack. We won't be speaking or signing books, but we will be eating a lot of fish.
- [55:09]
A
Don't go there, guys, because if you get in between Kevin and his fish, you might just get knocked to the ground. It's not. You don't want to see this, okay? Like, just come to the clc. That's where.
- [55:20]
B
But if you want to see Kevin looking happy and at ease and really living his best life, come see Kevin with a big plate of fish in the Grobs Fish Shack in Milford. Anya. Anya's hanging her head. She's resting her head on the desk.
- [55:42]
A
What are you doing?
- [55:44]
B
I'm gonna say the Grobs Fish Shack is really good.
- [55:47]
A
Oh, my God. October 3rd, we're going to Franklin, Indiana with the Johnson County Historical Society. That's gonna be awesome. And we're going to the Louisville Book Festival in Louisville on October 11th.
- [56:03]
B
October 11th. It's about one month from now.
- [56:06]
A
Saturday, October 18th. It's gonna be the Carmel Barnes and Noble book signing. So we're thrilled. If you guys have an event you want us to do, let us know. Even if you're in a different state. We're going to try to make stuff work. No guarantees.
- [56:19]
B
And you need to get a ticket for the Columbus event, but it'll be a great event.
- [56:22]
A
Oh, I'm psyched. It's going to be awesome. And in addition to that, we have shirts. So you can buy a shirt through murdersheetshop.com and. But if you want even more styles and more options, you want to go to themurder sheet. Re.com this is a terrific merch site and we got some awesome designs. We're thinking about adding one that says the moron sheet, which is something that a convicted killer called us. So that was fun. So that might be a fun way to. To do it. We have hoodies. There's, there's, I think, like different mugs. There's. You can't unring the bell, which is something I said in an episode, which is fun. So if you have any designs you think we should do, definitely pitch them because we'll add them to this and it'll be fun. But yeah, you guys should definitely check that out. And is that it?
- [57:17]
B
I think that's it.
- [57:19]
A
Story time.
- [57:21]
B
Story time. So these stories are just going to be for the next few weeks, once the promotional announcements aren't quite so extreme. We can take the stories, we can put them on a shelf. Right?
- [57:32]
A
We'll run out of stories.
- [57:34]
B
No, we got plenty of stories. There's no doubt about that. So this is a story. You know, like many of us, I went to high school, and so actually I graduated from high school too. But prior to my high school graduation, I appeared in a school play. And it doesn't really matter what the play is, but what you do need to know is there is the opening of, like, act two of the play. I come onto a darkened stage wearing boxer shorts and a T shirt, and I do something and then I walk off again. And it takes like a minute. So that's what you need to know. And we had been in rehearsals for the play for a couple of weeks not wearing our costumes. And at some point, when the wardrobe people, my fellow high school students, said, kevin, what size do you need? What T shirt, what boxy, short size do you need? I said, well, I take medium. And what I didn't know, what I didn't realize until tragically too late, is that the wardrobe person assumed I meant children's medium.
- [58:48]
A
Oh, no.
- [58:50]
B
And so the first dress rehearsal where you actually wear the costumes is a special event and it is attended by local middle school students because it's like a historical significant play. So the place is packed with like 12 and 13 year olds. And so with that in mind, I'm getting out my boxer shorts and my T shirts and I realize the problem. And I put in. And they say, sorry, Kevin, we don't have time to go get you another one, because the Show's about to begin and I put it on. And have you ever seen Catwoman on, like the old Batman TV show?
- [59:33]
A
No. Well, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:36]
B
A skin tight garment.
- [59:37]
A
Oh, no.
- [59:38]
B
Only on her it looks pretty good. And on a kind of guy who's out of shape, first of all, I have a bit of a potbelly. Nothing is left to the imagination. I really just look foolish. And they say, Kevin, you'll just be on stage for a minute before the regular performances. We'll fix this. So as the show begins, Act 1. I'm just thinking of this. I'm thinking about what I have to do, and I'm really, really dreading it. And so the crucial act comes. I put on this ridiculous set of garments, I look the fool, I walk out on stage and I'm greeted almost immediately by rolls upon rolls of derisive laughter and mockery. Just the crowd is making fun of me, understandably so, and I feel totally humiliated. But I rush through it and I get out. And I'm here to tell you, Anya, that even to this day, I can hear all of this laughter coming at me. But the Twist is, about 10 years later, I became aware that there is a recording that exists of this event. And so I had a friend at the time, another girl, and I said, this is going to be awful. Just prepare yourself. And so we fast forward to it and the scene comes where I walk out and it's dead silent. But if you listen very, very, very closely, you can hear someone, like maybe giggle, or they may be coughing, who knows?
- [61:28]
A
So what this tells us, poor Kevin.
- [61:33]
B
Is human memory is very, very fallible. And so when we assess eyewitness testimony in cases, we should keep that in mind and we should also keep in mind perspectives. I remember the laughter being so bad because I felt it was directed at me. And you were embarrassed and I was embarrassed. So if someone is telling an eyewitness account of something they saw or heard, and there's a reason for them to feel a particular way or see things a particular way, we should assess that. So we shouldn't disregard what people say. It's part of the truth, but it may not be the whole truth. And the ideal situation is when you have a bunch of eyewitness testimony from different people, when each one of their memories and each of their recollections can become like a tile in a mosaic presenting the greater truth. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is in the Delphi case, there was a younger woman who saw Richard Allen and described him as being an old man, basically. And there was an older person who saw Richard Allen and described him as being a young man, and they were both describing the same person. But when you're young, everybody looks old past a certain age. And when you're old, everybody looks young who is younger than a certain age. So you just have to keep these things in mind. And even if you think of yourself as a relatively intelligent person, like I am.
- [63:04]
A
You'Re so modest.
- [63:05]
B
You're not immune to that. No, you're not immune to that. And I'm not lying. In my mind, I can still hear all that laughter, but the evidence I have is that it never happened.
- [63:16]
A
Right. And I think that's what's important. You're not lying. You're not sitting there being like, let me, you know, exaggerate people mocking me. It's a situation. Your mind is. Our minds are very emotional, and emotions feel very real, and that colors our memory. Memories are fallible. So, as you said, the mosaic is what's important. Doesn't mean witnesses are lying. It doesn't mean that you have to say, oh, this person's just making it up. It just may be, you know, that they're having. They had an emotional reaction to something, or they had a perception that was wrong, and it just burned in their mind in. In a way that wasn't fully accurate. And that's just. That's life.
- [63:58]
B
So next week you're gonna have a story.
- [64:01]
A
Oh, man. I don't. What else do I have to say? I mean, I don't know. I feel like nothing happened to me. I'm just.
- [64:06]
B
You've had a full and active life, rich with anecdotes. Your life is like an issue of Reader's Digest.
- [64:13]
A
No.
- [64:14]
B
What does that mean? Just crammed full with anecdotes. They used to have, like, columns in Reader's Digest. Laughter is the best medicine.
- [64:21]
A
You got better anecdotes.
- [64:22]
B
Life in these United States, where people just talked about, like, funny things that.
- [64:26]
A
Happened to them and would they praise.
- [64:28]
B
The States, and that's what your life is like. It's just a crammed full of incident.
- [64:34]
A
There you go. Well, I'll try to come up with something.
- [64:41]
B
It'll be great.
- [64:42]
A
Thanks. Well, I love your story. I always felt so bad for little Kevin and your little outfit on the stage.
- [64:48]
B
I've shown you that recording, right?
- [64:50]
A
I don't think you have shown me that recording, but I would.
- [64:53]
B
The video part of it is really blurry. It makes the bridge guy video look like, hi, staff.
- [65:00]
A
Wow.
- [65:00]
B
It was very crudely shot, but the audio was perfect.
- [65:03]
A
I think it was cool that you were a little actor in high school, like that was. But I guess, I think, I guess that, you know, helpful for being a lawyer. Right? Awesome. Well, is that, is that everything?
- [65:14]
B
I think that's it.
- [65:14]
A
All right, well, you all take care and hope you're having a great Friday. Bye.
- [65:19]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [65:40]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [66:03]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [66:14]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [66:35]
E
Shopify's Point of Sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on on anywhere you sell?
- [66:47]
A
Thanks.
- [66:47]
E
Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify.com listen shopify.com listen.