The Cheat Sheet: Faces and Photos

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Faces and Photos"

Release Date: January 31, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
Podcast: Murder Sheet

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Introduction

In this episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into three compelling true crime cases, exploring issues ranging from flawed witness identification to the implications of advanced forensic technologies. Additionally, they provide updates on their ongoing book project, offering listeners an inside look into their investigative processes.

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Case 1: The Ohio Identification Controversy

Overview:
The episode opens with a discussion about a high-profile case from Ohio involving David Smith, who was convicted for the brutal attack on Courtney Tolliver. The case has garnered attention due to concerns over the victim's identification process and its subsequent legal ramifications.

Key Points:

• Victim's Identification Process:
  Courtney Tolliver suffered severe injuries, leading to her being placed in a medically induced coma. Upon recovery, she was presented with photographs of potential suspects [00:00–06:13]. Notably, when David Smith's photo was shown by a police officer, Tolliver failed to identify him initially but later did so after repeated exposure.

• Legal Implications:
  Kevin highlights the potential unreliability of such identifications, comparing it to conditioning someone to see a specific object based on prior suggestion:

  "If you have a police officer you trust showing you a picture and saying, this is who did it, that might precondition you, and it might make your identification ultimately unreliable, arguably." [05:50]

  Áine concurs, emphasizing the importance of unbiased photo lineups:

  "You could argue that the way we figure out how to train people is to look at things that go wrong and say, don't do this." [06:42]

• Supreme Court Involvement:
  The state court initially upheld Smith's conviction despite concerns, but a federal court overturned it, citing prejudice from the flawed identification. The Ohio Supreme Court declined to review the case, leading to debates about the deference federal courts should give to state judgments.

  "The Supreme Court is one of those places where they basically get to decide their own workload." [08:34]

• Impact on the Case:
  With the Supreme Court declining to hear the case, the conviction remains overturned, mandating a retrial that excludes the contentious identification. Both hosts express sympathy for Tolliver, acknowledging the ordeal she endured.

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Case 2: The Vallejo Witness Murder

Overview:
The second case revolves around Curtis Lind, an 82-year-old man from Vallejo, California, who became a pivotal witness in a murder trial. Tragically, Lind was murdered shortly before his scheduled testimony, raising alarms about witness safety.

Key Points:

• Background of Curtis Lind:
  Curtis Lind had previously survived a violent altercation involving tenants at his property, where he was nearly dismembered. In self-defense, he fatally shot one of his attackers and injured another, leading to felony murder charges against them.

• Murder of the Witness:
  On January 17th, Lind was stabbed in the neck by an unidentified assailant wearing a mask and a black beanie while visiting his property to sell it. This incident occurred as Lind was set to testify in the ongoing trial against his former tenants.

• Discussion on Witness Protection:
  Áine raises concerns about the lack of protection for crucial witnesses:

  "Are there should there be more resources put into protecting them potentially from stuff like this happening?" [14:03]

  Kevin agrees, highlighting the complexity and resource constraints of providing adequate protection:

  "They certainly need more protection of these sorts of witnesses." [14:41]

• Broader Implications:
  The hosts discuss the broader issue of witness safety and the challenges prosecutors face in safeguarding individuals who are central to high-stakes cases. They emphasize the need for systemic improvements to prevent such tragedies.

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Case 3: Cold Case Solved in Hawaii via DNA Evidence

Overview:
The final case examines a decades-old murder from Honolulu, Hawaii, which has recently been solved thanks to advancements in DNA technology.

Key Points:

• Details of the 1977 Murder:
  In March 1977, Dawn Mahara, a 16-year-old girl, was found dead on Oahu. Despite initial investigations, the case remained unsolved due to insufficient evidence.

• Breakthrough Through DNA Technology:
  Advances in DNA analysis allowed investigators in 2020 to retest evidence from the crime scene. A genetic profile of an unidentified male was developed from DNA found on Mahara's shorts.

• Identification and Arrest:
  The DNA profile eventually matched Gideon Castro, a former student of William McKinley High School in Honolulu. After comparing DNA from Castro's children, authorities established a biological link to the evidence from the crime scene. Castro was subsequently arrested and charged with Mahara's murder.

• Technology and Law Enforcement:
  Áine comments on the dual nature of technology in solving crimes:

  "I'm just glad that DNA is ushered in sort of an era where a lot of this stuff is getting kind of closed." [22:00]

  Kevin adds that while DNA has been revolutionary, it also necessitates careful consideration of legal protocols:

  "DNA has been a boon. Other new technologies may also potentially be a boon. But first, we have to figure out what are the rules, how do we use these new technologies, and how reliable are they?" [22:44]

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Discussion: Shadow of the Bridge – Upcoming Book Project

Overview:
Beyond the case discussions, Áine and Kevin provide an update on their collaborative book project, Shadow of the Bridge, which focuses on the Delphi murders.

Key Points:

• Project Background:
  The hosts have been working on this comprehensive book since 2017, aiming to provide an in-depth exploration of the Delphi case. The project underscores the complexities and dark underpinnings of high-profile true crime investigations.

• Challenges and Insights:
  Áine reflects on the darker aspects of true crime fascination:

  "It's about the Delphi case. But I think it also underscores something about true crime which our listeners might be interested in and how there can be a real dark side to an extreme amount of interest in a case." [35:37]

  They discuss how public interest, while beneficial in keeping cases in the spotlight, can also lead to negative consequences, including callous behavior and inhumanity.

• Call to Action:
  The hosts encourage listeners to pre-order the book, highlighting its comprehensive nature and the importance of understanding true crime from multiple perspectives.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee offer a deep dive into intricate true crime cases, examining the interplay between human error, technological advancement, and legal proceedings. Their discussions highlight the continual evolution of the criminal justice system and the enduring impact of unresolved crimes on victims and communities. Additionally, their commitment to shedding light on these cases through their upcoming book reflects their dedication to thorough investigative journalism.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee on Identification Reliability:

  "If you have a police officer you trust showing you a picture and saying, this is who did it, that might precondition you, and it might make your identification ultimately unreliable, arguably." [05:50]

• Áine Cain on the Dark Side of True Crime Interest:

  "I think there's a lot of inhumanity and callous behavior. And I think shining a light on things tends to, you know, destroy the mildew." [35:37]

• Kevin Greenlee on DNA and Technology in Law Enforcement:

  "DNA has been a boon. Other new technologies may also potentially be a boon. But first, we have to figure out what are the rules, how do we use these new technologies, and how reliable are they?" [22:44]

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Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of topics like murder and rape.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, this week on the Cheat Sheet, it fell on me to pick the cases. Anya was otherwise occupied. She was back doing something, I think organizing the T shirts or something. Or perhaps actually she was. She was working hard.

[Anya Cain]

So you don't think the T shirts are hard work? What do you think goes into these ads?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, she was working hard to come up with an ad for the end of the show, so I'm really looking forward to that, as I'm sure all of you are.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So two of these cases will be out of the great state of Ohio, our neighboring state. We also have a case out of California and a case from Hawaii. So let's get to it.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Faces and photos.

[Anya Cain]

It.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I want to apologize. I nearly forgot my own title. This is one of those rare weeks when I came up with the title of the Cheat Sheet episode and I almost panicked. Yeah, I freaked out, as you all heard.

[Anya Cain]

I didn't think it was that bad of a delay. At least you weren't sighing during the opening music like somebody did recently, or coughing. That was you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the first case we're going to be talking about is one I found at SCOTUS Blog. And so readers who are familiar with that site know that that is the Supreme Court of the United States blog, which is a little clue that this case somehow involves the United States Supreme Court. And it's a pretty interesting case that actually did not quite make it all the way to the court because the court declined to hear. And I'm going to be very curious. I've not discussed this with my co host, the lovely Anya Cain, prior to our discussion, so I may Be curious as to where you come down on this.

[Anya Cain]

You blindside me about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. I always find it interesting when some cases involving criminal law reach the higher levels of the court. So this is a case that, as I mentioned, happened in Ohio, and it involves a man named David Smith, who ultimately was convicted of committing a brutal attack on a woman named Courtney Tolliver. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing that name. And this attack on Ms. Toliver was so brutal that she had to be put into a medically induced coma. And when she was brought out of that coma, she's shown a variety of pictures of people who police considered, like, suspects in the assault on her, and she doesn't identify any of them. And then later, a police officer comes to her and shows her a picture of Mr. Smith and says, this is the guy that attacked you, and shows her the picture. She doesn't. Then later on, she identifies him as the attacker. So the question is, does the fact that she was shown a picture of a man and told, this is the man who did it, does that make her identification of him just hopelessly corrupt and unreliable?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I mean, how important was her identification of him to the overall case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would imagine that anytime you have a victim in a beating case like this, making an identification is probably pretty crucial.

[Anya Cain]

Pretty crucial. But, I mean, if there's also stuff like DNA or surveillance footage that definitively shows him. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, obviously that's problematic. Why would they. Why would they do it that way? Why would the police officer. I mean, aren't. Isn't the training pretty much to not do that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, this is frowned upon because obviously it is problematic. It's kind of similar to if Anya takes me outside and points.

[Anya Cain]

I take you outside? What are you, a dog?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you point up at the sky and say, look, Kevin, that cloud up there looks like a rabbit, then I will look at the clouds and I will see the rabbit, because she's preconditioned me to see that. And so if you have a police officer you trust showing you a picture and saying, this is who did it, that might precondition you, and it might make your identification ultimately unreliable, arguably.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, we've seen cases where police show a photo lineup and one of the photos is slightly different. And that's been raised as an issue where it's like that one. It made it stand out. So that makes it problematic, or that they didn't show enough photos, or there was something distinctive or like, there's a lot of ways to mess up that sort of thing. And I, you know, you would just hope that the training would be better. It's better to give options and be cleaner about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You could also argue that the way we figure out how to train people is to look at things that go wrong and say, don't do this.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And this would certainly be that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, what happened in this case is they. They tried him and he was convicted. And the. The state court of Ohio said, well, yeah, that. That really wasn't a good idea. I'm simplifying here. They say that identification really wasn't handled well, but if it was still reliable, sure, it can come in. And so they allowed it. But then a federal court ended up throwing the conviction out, saying, no, this prejudiced the whole thing. He needs a new trial. And so then the State of Ohio took the matter up to the Supreme Court and asked them to basically reinstate the conviction. In other words, don't make us go through the trial, just say the court of appeals was wrong, make him guilty again. And the court declined to take the case. Clarence Thomas was against that decision, and he felt that the federal court should have been paying more deference to the state court and how the state court handled it.

[Anya Cain]

Interesting. So it's not that the Supreme Court is ruling on it. It's they're just saying pass. Well, so now does it just go back and they have to do the retrial?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, because now the Supreme Court is not taking it up. The earlier judgment of the Court of Appeals is, in effect. Not sure what will happen there. But, yeah, the Supreme Court is one of those places where they basically get to decide their own workload because lots of people want the Supreme Court to hear their cases, but they. The Supreme Court gets to vote and decide what cases they hear or don't hear.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I. I certainly feel very bad for Ms. Toliver throughout all this. I mean, to be brutally beaten like that and then have to go through all of this is. Is. Is truly a horrible outcome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's frustrating when mistakes happen that might compromise the ability to get justice in a case.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, yeah, it's frustrating, but I tend to agree with the federal court that it's unfortunate, but there's no way around it. I'm not sure how much faith I would be able to put in that identification.

[Anya Cain]

Right. Yeah. I mean, and as you said, that can be very important in a case like this. So now the thing is, they'd have to go back and do it again. If they were going to do it again and just not have the identification aspect in it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And see if they convict him again based on the remaining evidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we will keep an eye on that and see what happens. And that this case was just turned down for review by the Supreme Court just a few days ago. That's very interesting. There was a case out of Valley. How do you pronounce that?

[Anya Cain]

Vallejo.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Vallejo. I'm not good with the words we're working very hard on.

[Anya Cain]

That's very unfortunate. Given that you're writing a book and now you're saying you're not good with the words. You're saving all your words for the book, in other words. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

It sounds like I'm doing a riddle, but I'm really not. I'm just losing my mind slowly. Anyways, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Vallejo.

[Anya Cain]

Vallejo.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Vallejo.

[Anya Cain]

Where is that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe it's in California. Okay, so a man in Vallejo, Vallejo was stabbed to death earlier this month. And it turns out that he was a crucial witness in an upcoming murder case where.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God. And oh my Gosh, she was 82 years old.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's an 82 year old man. Curtis Lind.

[Anya Cain]

There's something about, I don't know why, when people victimize the elderly, there's something that really upsets me. I don't know, I mean, I, I'm sure it upsets a lot of people. There's just something, I don't know that makes me really angry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, 82 year old man. Obviously not, at least by the details we have here. He's not a threat to anybody. And he is targeted for attack not once, but twice. Because as it turns out, he was seriously injured a couple of years ago in this earlier incident where he got into a kind of a confrontation with some tenants at a property he owned. And the fight there turned violent. He was attacked by these people. They used a bunch of knives and swords. And his, his view was that they were intending to basically dismember him, cut him up and try to dissolve him in chemicals. He survives this attack, though, he actually shoots two of his attackers, injuring one of them and killing the other. And we all know about felony murder. And so the other attackers were charged with felony murder because of what happened there. And he was basically the only witness and he was scheduled to testify in this upcoming trial and now he has himself been murdered.

[Anya Cain]

Well, that, that's horrible. I mean, and it sounds like they were squatting on his property. As well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So the person who killed him stabbed him in the neck on January 17th of this year, a guy wearing a mask and a black beanie. It is not clear if this is related to the earlier attack.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you it's related to the earlier attack.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. It would seem like a deliberate effort to prevent this man from testifying.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I mean, and obviously these people think they're, you know, can do whatever they want with impunity. They're squatting, they're trying to dismember people. And now, you know, some of them, some of their group are on trial, so they send somebody out to kill the witness. I. I mean, I know cases involving people who murder witnesses in trials are often taken pretty seriously because as you've said, and as I said on the show, it's an attack on the system as well as on an individual. And I can only hope that a lot of effort is put into to this, because you should, obviously, I mean, hopefully this is obvious. I don't think I'm. I think I'm probably preaching to the choir with our listeners, but, like, you should not be able to get away with crimes by just killing all the people who could, you know, pose a danger to you at a trial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And he is, as I indicate, he was very crucial when the prosecutors mentioned that there was less evidence than usual in a homicide in this case. He was going to testify in that he was the only eyewitness, and his testimony was absolutely crucial. And now he won't be able to offer it.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I want to ask you, Kevin, like, I mean, I'm not. I'm not knocking this prosecutor's office or, you know, I just. I just don't know the circumstances. But, like, in certain cases where there are witnesses like this, are. Are there should there be more resources put into protecting them potentially from stuff like this happening? If there's maybe a. There's maybe an indication that somebody's testifying against, you know, people who have connections. I don't know if there's. I. I'm not saying there's organized crime here. I don't know. But like. Or there could be kind of a. A possibility, like something like this can happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. They certainly need more protection of these sorts of witnesses. I don't know who to blame here.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not saying anyone is to blame. Yeah. I mean, the person who killed him is to blame.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. But I don't know if it was a case of him declining protection or what have you. It does sound like in this particular case, he moved out of this area where both attacks occurred. But he would go back there sometime because he still owned this piece of property that he was trying to sell. So, I mean, obviously, hindsight 20 20, but certainly maybe when he went back to that area, he should have had people with him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To protect him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well.

[Anya Cain]

And yeah, it's certainly not victim blaming here because, you know, you should be able to walk around without getting killed by people, obviously. But it, it's just. Yeah. I just wonder in cases like that, I, if. I don't know if you have a case where there's like one witness and that witness is super important and maybe, you know, but then again, I don't think a lot of prosecutors offices necessarily have a ton of resources by way of that. And there's also, you know, it's not like you can, you know, I don't know if that would call for like witness protection program where you start a new life. I think that, you know, that might be too extreme. But there's, you know, then suddenly you might have to get police on overtime. Like it can add up. The expenses, I'm sure, can add up. So there's a practical side to it too. But unfortunately in this case, you know, obviously it cost a man his life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. I want to move on. I should mention that the source we use for that, I will let you open Vallejo.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, we'll go with that. I don't know how to say it either.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well.

[Anya Cain]

These are things one must look at before recording.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're rubbing my face in it. I want to move on to Hawaii case. We always enjoy covering cases out of Hawaii. Although maybe enjoy is usually not necessarily the word you'd use when you talk about a murder. But maybe to some extent it is appropriate for a case like this where someone was murdered decades ago. And finally, the perpetrator appears to have been identified and arrested.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, I saw this come up in the news, actually, this case that you're going to talk about. So I'm really glad you selected it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And my source for this was the Guardian, which is headquartered out of the uk, but they did cover this. This is a case about a murder that occurred in Honolulu, Hawaii, on the island of Oahu in March of 1977. And an arrest was just made in this case very recently in the state of Utah. The victim in the case was a 16 year old girl named Dawn. Well, Mahara, I apologize if I mispronounce that. She was found dead on March 21, 1977. She'd actually gone missing the night before. She told her mom she's going to go somewhere to meet some friends. She never comes back. They discover her body. The next day, she was deceased. And there was evidence that a sexual assault had occurred. And despite the best efforts of authorities at the time, they were unable to come up with sufficient evidence to make an arrest or identify a killer. Back then. And we all know about how great DNA technology is getting and how it can be used to work almost miracles. And so, with the advances in science and technology, some of the items belonging to the victim and samples from the murder scene were retested back in 2020. And using these advanced techniques, they were able to get a genetic profile of an unidentified male. They did this by taking a DNA sample from the victim's shorts.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then just a couple years ago, they then received some information suggesting that Gideon Castro or his brother William Castro could be potential suspects. They didn't make it clear how they got that information. The Castro brothers were students at the school. At least Gideon was. They were able to get DNA from the children of the Castros. William's child's DNA cleared. William. When they took some DNA from the son of Gideon Castro, it came up that this DNA belonged to a biological child of the unidentified male whose DNA was found at the crime scene.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So earlier in January, detectives traveled to Utah. They collected some DNA from Gideon Castro, who's now 66, and they found that it matched the DNA profile from the scene. And so they got the warrant and they arrested him. And he's been charged with the murder of this girl.

[Anya Cain]

Good. I hope all the elderly rapists and murderers are just terrified every time they see a story like this come up. Like, honestly, like, your time's coming next, you know? And he said, this is William William McKinley High School. Is that it? I believe so. When I looked it up, I think that's what I saw. And that's like a very well known high school.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McKinley High School. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

In Honolulu. Like, I know, like, I think, like Duke Kahanamuko went there and like a lot of famous people, like, it's a very well known central school there. And what a horrible tragedy. I mean, not only her family, her friends, but just imagine being a student there, you know, a young woman there like you. You know, suddenly you go from being a student there, trying to learn to being like possible prey for a predator. It's horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's horrible. And think how it. It affected these, those other students for the rest of their lives having to deal with This. A friend of theirs having this awful thing happen to them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's just, you know, and again, so many of these cases, you know, people. People try to. I don't know, sometimes they feel like a lot of crime is a lot simpler than we want to think. We want to think everything like some, you know, brilliant serial killer, whatever. I think a lot of these crimes are, you know, basically somebody wants to get sexually gratified and they're willing to kill for it, you know, because somebody else's human life doesn't matter as much to them. So they kill and they get gratified, and then they move on with their life. And maybe they don't even kill anyone else. But, you know, it's. It's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's.

[Anya Cain]

It's not. It's not. I mean, it sounds like something that we can't understand or like, you almost want everyone to be a serial killer because then at least, like, they kind of keep doing it, and that's just their life. But someone kind of doing something like this and then slipping back into the, you know, into the. Into life, it's almost like, harder to conceptualize that. But I think that's extremely common.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's. It's a terrifying thought to think that people around us could be living ordinary lives, going to the grocery stores in the aisle ahead of us, eating at fast food places one table over. And they may have done these terrible things.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I mean, and they are, and they have, and they're out there. And, you know, just some people are bad people and they don't care about other lives to the extent that they are willing to do something like this. So I don't. I just. I think it's horrifying, but I think it's something that we have to accept. But I'm just. I'm just glad that DNA is ushered in sort of an era where a lot of this stuff is getting kind of closed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And while we're on the topic of new technology, obviously DNA has been a boon. Other new technologies may also potentially be a boon. But first we have to kind of figure out what are the rules, how do we use these new technologies, and how reliable are they?

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure we can ask the lawyers for help with that. They'll figure it out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, let's all turn to the attorneys, and those. Those questions arise in the final case I wanted to talk about this week. And my source for this was cleveland.com and this involves facial recognition and AI. And so it begins, of course, with a murder last February Actually, on Valentine's Day, a 33 year old man named Blake Story was walking on the street not far from his house and someone comes up from behind, robs him and then shoots him. And then the shooter runs away. Storey is very badly wounded. Somehow he manages to stagger the last bit of his walk home and his father discovers him dead in the bathtub the next day.

[Anya Cain]

Well, that's awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a terrible story. So the murder was captured on a surveillance camera, but the images weren't really clear enough to identify anybody. Later officers found that there was a security camera that had recorded a guy later identified as. I know I'm going to butcher this name K yon Tolbert. They capture this man leaving his own home and going to a convenience store in the same general neighborhood. And one of these cameras at the convenience store gets a picture of his face. And police kind of think this guy in this footage kind of looks like the shooter. So they were able to go to the convenience store, they got a copy of the video, and then they had it turned over to an AI powered facial recognition organization called Clearview AI. Clearview AI runs this through their. I don't even know what the proper word is. Through their dead database, would you think?

[Anya Cain]

I don't really understand technology. Not gonna lie. They run it through their processes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They run it through their processes and they come back with eight pictures. Now, two of those pictures turn out to be of Tolbert. Other pictures come from like Instagram and YouTube. One is just a post of a guy who's riding a bicycle near a statue. And there's also, oddly enough, a YouTube video that comes up of people eating chicken.

[Anya Cain]

Buffalo wild wings.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Buffalo wild wings. That's chicken, isn't it?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this report includes Tolbert's name and his arrest record, all sorts of identifying information. And so detectives think this must be the guy. And so they go to a judge and using this information, get a search warrant of the guy's apartment. And when they search it, they recover the murder weapon. But there are some problems, one of which is this Clearview AI on the bottom of their report, it says anything that turns up as a result of this cannot be used as admissible evidence in court.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's a problem. And another problem is they linked Tolbert. They found Tolbert by getting this video from the convenience store and running it through this system. But the system also turned up completely unrelated people. Like the people eating the chicken wings.

[Anya Cain]

The B dubs, guys. Yeah, no, yeah, that's a problem.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's a problem. So the defense attorneys rather predictably said this isn't right. It literally says on the report, this can't be used as evidence. And you're trying to use it as evidence to get a search warrant. And a judge agreed and he threw out the warrant. Which also means that the fact that the murder weapon was in this man's home was. Was also threat out.

[Anya Cain]

So that can't come back in for any reason.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's not even go there, okay? Probably not. Yeah. So this would seem to be a fatal blow to the case.

[Anya Cain]

That's brutal because he's obviously guilty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm sure it's going to come up for appeals and such, but it would seem that if we're going to start using some of these technologies, we need to have clear rules and roadmaps as to how they might be.

[Anya Cain]

You need to have the most nervous guy in your or gal in your prosecutor's office be basically walking through every second of any case that you're going to do. You know, you're right. There need to be. I mean, listen, I understand where they're coming from. They're trying to get a person who's willing to gun down a guy over nothing, but you have to be done in the right way. And, you know, with the thing that kind of came to my mind is investigative gene genetic genealogy. You know, when they use that, you don't just. It doesn't just go into like, it's a tool to get you to somebody's door, like what you were talking about with the Hawaii case. And then, you know, if someone discards some trash and it's legal for you to grab that, you can grab that and test it and see if your theory is correct. But you don't just kind of skip over that step and throw someone in prison or jail or what have you over that new technology. In this case, it seems like there could have been a way. This would have required a lot more work. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this would be easy, but having something where somebody's maybe surveilling this person or looking for other ways to kind of get in his house would have been the way to. To get in the house. And then you could say, well, listen, the AI led us there, but it didn't get us in the house. We didn't present it to a judge and say, have this convince you to let us in his house. Am I making any sense? Does that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because my concern. My concern, obviously here, the AI led them to the Right person. But it's very easy to imagine a circumstance. The AI also pulled back this video of people eating chicken wings. What if Anya and I were those people eating chicken wings?

[Anya Cain]

We probably would be, or at least I would be. I don't know if you really like chicken wings.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not into that. But you could imagine a situation if that's all it takes is to have your picture show up in an AI report. Does that mean that if it pulls up the video of me eating chicken wings with my wife, that the police can then come and search my home?

[Anya Cain]

Oh God. Yeah. It, I, it is concerning and I, I'm kind of, I think I'm kind of somewhere in the middle because I, I don't really have a problem with there being technology used in the situation to lead you to somebody. But at that point you need more. You can't just do anything based on the AI. Maybe it points out, like this guy's looking pretty good, but you need more from it. And how you get that more, you know, might involve more old fashioned police work, you know, surveillance, having people undercover who are trying to get him to talk, you know, like, like you gotta get something or, or maybe, I don't know, maybe like he's, there's drugs involved and you get in that way, like you could figure something out, I guess. But I, I, but basically like we can kick down your door because AI told us that you were the guy. As you said in this case, they found the murder weapon. He's obviously guilty as hell. I mean, he's a bad person. He's probably gonna get away with it at this point. But the people who are just, you know, have their Instagram up there, they're not bad people. They don't, you know, if the reported for some reason said no, it's this guy, then that, it's just, you have to have parameters. And I would really, I think hopefully this is a lesson because I think, you know, I think people are often, you know, they're looking for tools to help with policing and to, you know, keep communities safer and whatnot. So they're trying to adopt new things. And I don't necessarily think, I don't think that's a bad thing, but I think it's just an underscoring, adopt new things very, very carefully because otherwise, you know, a case could implode like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And apparently the detectives who worked this case had not had any special training about how to use AI. Okay, so this just really calls out. We need to have some nationwide standards as to how to use this technology. Obviously, again, it identified the person it meant it was intended to identify. So there seems to be a really strong potential there, but we just have to make sure we use it in a way that protects everyone's rights.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think what you said, strong potential, you know, that's good, but cannot be a situation where just bust down the door because, you know, my Instagram happened to make me look slightly similar to someone who did something bad because that's. That's violating to my rights. Right. I have a question. Is what I said about Igg at all relevant? Like, it's okay for something like this to maybe get you to somewhere, but you can't. You almost need to build a bridge still to kind of cross over and get to the point where you're actually arresting someone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. A big part of a case, obviously, is identifying your suspect, but then once you identify your suspect, that doesn't mean you automatically get to have all the warrants you want. Certainly there's steps they could have taken once they identified this man. I'm not even clear if they ever even tried to interview him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, like, I. I don't. I don't mind that part. I feel like everything up to then is working great, but it's not. It's. It's not acceptable. Yeah, we did that. That's just. That's not going to be good for anybody. So I think what you said, hopefully there can be further training, hope for that. Hopefully there can be discussions. Hopefully things like this can. I mean, and it sounds like, in fairness to Clearview, they. They said in their report, like, don't use this. So it's not like, you know, like, that was probably, you know, the right. The right approach to kind of be more cautious, but it's going to start looking really dystopian if, you know, if it's not kind of. If they're not rules put in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, agreed. Well, while I was picking the cases, you were using your quill to write ads for, I believe, the book and for the T shirts.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm awaiting this.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not going to interrupt.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, well, we'll see if that lasts. So Kevin and I are writing a book. It's called Shadow of the Bridge. It's about the Delphi murders. We've been working on that case. A lot of people say we've been working on the case since the beginning. We didn't know each other. In 2017, we started working on this case, and I believe 2021. Does that sound Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I don't know, you know, 500 years and it's, it's, it's a case that's deeply important to us. It's important to us that the public understands and knows about the case. It's important to us to tell the stories of all the people involved in the case on all sides, all angles. So this is going to be a very, very comprehensive book. We hope it's a book that's meaningful and we're trying our best to make it as good as possible and I think it'll be worth your time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we've been working very hard on it. The first draft is actually due very soon. It's actually the day you hear this, I believe is the day that first draft is scheduled to be turned in. So as soon as we're done recording, we're going back and doing some more editing.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but the reporting process will be continuing for a while. Yes, you know, a draft is a draft, but we're still working on it, so rest assured.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I'm hopeful that after we get this initial draft done, we will be able to have time to work on some other cases because there's. People have been suggesting a lot of cases to us that we very much want to cover.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we do want to cover other cases right now. It's just not, it's really just not feasible for us to be, you know, doing interviews for this book and then diving into another case. That would be doing a disservice to everyone and, but, you know, hopefully that'll change soon and we can kind of get back to it. But this book is, is really, really important to us. I, I hope it, it's, it's not, it's about the Delphi case. It's very much about the Delphi case. But I think it also underscores something about true crime which our listeners might be interested in and how there can be a real dark side to an extreme amount of interest in a case. And how while most of us who get interested in a high profile case are very well meaning and, and not doing anything wrong and in fact probably helping focus resources by keeping that case in the public spotlight, there can be a dark underbelly to that where there's a lot of inhumanity and callous behavior. And I think shining a light on things tends to, you know, destroy the mildew. So it's going to be looking into some of that. It's going to be looking into the facts of the case and how it developed over time. And we're really, really putting a lot of work into it. And it would mean a lot if you pre ordered, if you hadn't already, and should be an audiobook, too. So that's something to look out for. But, you know, pre orders help us a lot. If you can pre order for yourself and then tell your friends about it, if it's something like you think they would be interested in, tell your friends, you can tell your enemies, you can tell all kinds of people, no matter how you feel about them, tell them about the book. But yeah, that's what we've got going on recently. So I'll include links to where you can pre order. It's on Amazon, it's on bookshop.org, it's on Simon and Schuster's website.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we've been working like, 16 hours a day on this book. So I'm optimistic that. That we will not be working 16 hours a day after we finish the rough draft.

[Anya Cain]

So that's what you think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So. So I'm. I'm hopeful we'll be. We'll be doing other cases and stuff sooner rather than later. What about shirts?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Working 16 hours a day to get these shirts sold. So we. We also. I almost said we own shirts. Of course we own shirts, but these are shirts that we're selling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm guessing that everybody within the sound of my owns shirts. Yeah, I'm guessing that every man, woman, and child on this planet owns shirts.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay. So what are we selling them if they already have them? What's the point? This is. This is futile, Kevin. What are we gonna do? Pack it in?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I'm telling you, that shows there is a universal interest in need.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay, so it means that they're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gonna want more, obviously. Do you think.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think Exponential shirts. So you believe shirt sales are going to skyrocket?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Believe that all people need in life is a single shirt?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that what you're positive?

[Anya Cain]

I don't believe that. I'm just saying you kind of made it sound like they don't need us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How many shirts do you think a person should own?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know. I'm not going to. I don't know. I'm not good with guessing numbers. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think everybody was in the sound of my voice. The number of shirts in the sound.

[Anya Cain]

Of your voice is me. We're in the same room.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What about the listeners? Okay, well, I believe everybody within the sound of my voice. The number of shirts you have now is close to the number you need. You Just need one more.

[Anya Cain]

Just need one more. And that's the Murder Sheet People T shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And it's a beautiful, stylish shirt of cotton, I think. And it has our logo on it and it says Murder Sheet People. And it's a way to become a Murder Sheet person in a way. I mean, that's kind of. I mean, it's right there on the shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You.

[Anya Cain]

No confusion there. And it's. It's just beautiful. It's beautiful colors, beautiful details. You could buy [e-mail] I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it'd be a great gift for Valentine's Day.

[Anya Cain]

A Valentine's. A Valentine's shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you could wear it in the Easter Parade.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. With an Easter bonnet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. You got. You got plans for the holidays.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But.

[Anya Cain]

What about St. Patrick's Day? It's not green, so I don't know. Maybe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the fact that a shamrock.

[Anya Cain]

To it and then you're good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I think if people don't start ordering these shirts, I think that for every holiday in the future, that's the gift you're getting.

[Anya Cain]

Help, guys, please. Well, if that's my fate, then I guess that's same for you. Happy birthday, sweetheart. It's a box of shirts cut to Kevin looking dejected in all his birthday photos. Yeah, we. You know, we there. I mean, but there really are great shirts. I. I really like. All kidding aside, they're. They're pretty cool. And, you know, I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a. I mean, you gotta love the merch. You know, everyone loves merch, so I think just check it out and, and also, you know, drop a hint to your. To your spouse or to your, you know, significant other or to whoever in your life is kind of like what? You know, I think our listeners are an intriguing and intelligent bunch, so that's hard to shop for. So maybe you start leaving some links lying around for people. They get the picture. They know what you want for the holidays or for your birthday.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So these. These links are like a physical object.

[Anya Cain]

What are you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hi. We didn't leave links lying around.

[Anya Cain]

Text it to people. Not what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's not lying around.

[Anya Cain]

It's just a saying you're picturing, like URLs, like hovering in space. What is going on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I dream you look at things as they are and say, why? I look at things. I dream things that aren't and say, why not? And I dream of a world where, yeah, maybe URLs are just floating around and People can buy Murder Sheet T shirts with ease. Just hit the buttons.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, gladly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it Looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really exper with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.comm sheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com/m sheet. That's Q U I N C E.com/M S H e T. Before we wrap.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They can seem daunting.

[Anya Cain]

It. It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a. It's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.com/m sheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Sheet before we go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code M Sheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T and after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.