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- [00:00]
A
Fall's pretty much here and I for one am celebrating the cooler temperatures because this means I can finally break out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I love sweaters in general and these are two of my all time favorites.
- [00:15]
B
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- [00:32]
A
Think washable silk tops, skirts, tailored denim, lots of cool options, all at shockingly low prices. I for one am about to go on another Quints shopping spree. Kevin's excited about it too.
- [00:46]
B
I'm desperate to have Anya buy another hat maybe.
- [00:50]
A
But right now I'm loving my black V neck sweater and dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable and easy to maintain. I think they look really stylish, but they're also just easy to sort of throw on with anything. And frankly, that's the kind of high quality, low effort vibe I'm going for this year. So get your Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $50 so we can all match.
- [01:12]
B
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- [01:36]
A
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- [02:25]
D
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- [02:58]
B
Contains discussion of murder and I wanted to note that lately, at the end of our cheat sheets, we always talk about where we're going to be to be talking about our book and making our appearances. And just as a way to incentivize people to listen to all of that for at least a few weeks. After all of that stuff is said and done, there's going to be a little story from one of us or an anecdote. And this week's story will be from Anya. Much better than my stories. I think my last story was I was on a boat and I saw a girl with a bikini. Yours is much better than that. Yours is like thrill pass.
- [03:40]
A
You sound crazy right now. You say, oh, we're going to tell you a little story at the. I mean, what is this?
- [03:46]
B
I'm just trying to incentivize people.
- [03:48]
A
Why are you telling people that you sound Machiavellian?
- [03:51]
B
See, Anya, the whole point is we want people to listen through the announcements to hear the story, but that only works if we tell them a story is coming.
- [04:00]
A
So it's like a anecdote, hostage crisis, you know, like.
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B
And yours is thrill packed. Puts mine to shame.
- [04:08]
A
I don't think it puts yours to shame.
- [04:09]
B
And on a boat, I see a girl in a bikini.
- [04:11]
A
I think you're just setting me up for failure so you can look like the better raconteur. At the end of the day, that's what I think's actually happening.
- [04:19]
B
No, I think at the end of the day, if we were to take a poll, people would find you to be the better storyteller. And I got a word of warning. Whether you're wearing an Easter bonnet or a fedora or a cowboy hat or perhaps a jaunty beret, when Anya starts telling her story, hang onto your hat.
- [04:43]
A
You're setting me up for failure.
- [04:45]
B
Because I know, I know a lot of people wear hats when they listen to the program.
- [04:51]
A
They wear hats just out of respect for us. Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:55]
B
So I just say, hang on to it. So it's a great story.
- [04:59]
A
It's really not that good. So I think you kind of set everyone up for an awkward situation later. So thanks for that. And second of all, I think today I'M staying close to home. I. My. Both of my cases are Indiana. Both of my cases were requested from listeners. You've got us going all the way to the west coast, to Seattle, and then going to Australia, of all places. I don't know if we can afford these trips anymore.
- [05:25]
B
We will be going via the Chunnel.
- [05:28]
A
The Chunnel, which doesn't go to Australia. You don't know. You don't understand anything.
- [05:34]
B
If you don't mind making your trip much longer and much more expensive, you. You could go through the tunnel as part of your trip from Indiana to Australia.
- [05:44]
A
Now, you guys know what vacationing with Kevin is like. All sorts of unrealistic expectations, right? Well, let's do it.
- [05:52]
B
Let's do it.
- [05:54]
A
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [06:07]
A
We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the Cheat sheet. Fakes and flashbangs. Just as a note to start, we are trying to get ahead of the game on our Cheat Sheet output, which means that we are recording this episode on Monday, August 18th. But it's not going to come out until I believe. What, like, what are you looking at at this point, Kevin? September 5th?
- [07:18]
B
I think so, because we have all these book appearances. We have Crime Con.
- [07:22]
A
Yeah, we. We don't. We don't have. You know, we don't have.
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B
We want to make sure we get these done.
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A
So that is to say, there might be stunning developments in all four of these cases in the interim. And if that's the case, we sincerely apologize.
- [07:37]
B
Is that what you're predicting?
- [07:38]
A
No, but it could happen. So. And I'm sure there will be actual developments in some of them, especially the ones I picked. But I. I think we're giving you just a taste of what's going on right now. August 18th, and sort of. I'm trying to narrow in on just the basics.
- [07:53]
B
Mine are evergreens. I don't think you need to worry about updates in mind.
- [07:56]
A
Yours are just. You're just. They're. They're. They're done. Don't worry about them. But Indiana, there might be some developments, but that's okay. So the first one I picked is a case out of Jeffersonville, Indiana, and my source for this is Wave three. That's a local station. And just for people who are not from Indiana, Jeffersonville, Indiana, is in Clark county, and it is the seat of Clark County. It's right along, isn't it?
- [08:27]
B
Like, right across the river from Louisville?
- [08:28]
A
That's right. It's on the Ohio River. It's at the very. You know, it's one of the southern, bordering Kentucky situations.
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B
Before you were born, I went down to Jeffersonville, Indiana, and saw Bill Clinton when he made a campaign appearance there in 1992.
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A
Wow. What was that like? Did you get to meet him?
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B
Like, it was a very sparsely attended campaign event. I'm not sure why he was going to Jeffersonville, Indiana. I think at some point in that campaign, he said, I'll campaign in all 50 states. And, like, Jeffersonville was like, right across from Louisville. So maybe that was an easy way to knock Indiana off.
- [09:08]
A
So that was your Dairy Girls moment. So you said it was sparsely attended.
- [09:12]
B
It wasn't really attended that well, there was. The more interesting anecdote was when I saw him in Louisville. But maybe I'll save that for one of my story times.
- [09:21]
A
Oh, now this is becoming a whole thing. We're gonna run out of anecdotes in, like, five minutes, right?
- [09:29]
B
Well, this is the Louisville Bill Clinton anecdote. Involves me and a friend outwitting the Secret Service. But we digress.
- [09:39]
A
And you say I'm the criminal who does heists. You're taunting the Secret Service like you're John Malkovich in the Line of fire. God. Okay, so this takes place in Jeffersonville, and it involves a standoff between SWAT team and a man named Bryce Winicke. I don't know if I'm saying that right. And this took place recently on. I believe this all went down on Friday, which was Friday the 15th of August. And it happened on Summerlin place in the 1700 block. And so there was a welfare check, but then this ended up in a SWAT standoff, unfortunately. And this guy Winnicke, who is 33 years old, he barricaded himself in the house. He wouldn't leave. And so then police brought in SWAT teams and, you know, sort of did a tactical response. But mostly were, you know, trying to de escalate. They called him or on the phone with this guy, and he. He said, you know, I'm not gonna come out, but I'll come out later. Okay. So officers started throwing in flash bangs, which are stun grenades. So those are, you know, something to kind of, you know, it. There's like a big bright flash. It's disorienting. Big bang. And, you know, this. All of this reminded me of you and I, where we used to live. There was a standoff with police not involving us somehow.
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B
Right.
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A
We were not involved, but it involved a, the son of a neighbor. And it was crazy afterwards finding all of these kind of like rounds and stuff in our yard. There hadn't been a shootout. He had, I believe, shot at the officers, but I think they, they used non lethal force to get him out of there. But it was, that was a. We actually weren't able to go home that night, so we had to go to Kevin's parents and sleep over. And it was like, what's going on? Like, I don't know. There's like an ISP tactical command unit, like blocking off our subdivision. So I guess we can't go home tonight. Thank goodness Lanny was with us because we had brought her previously to see Kevin's parents.
- [11:53]
B
Well, you say thank goodness, but if Lanny had been there, don't you think the standoff wouldn't even have started? Because the guy with the gun would have like looked over and seen Lanny patrolling our yard and thought, I can't get away with this.
- [12:06]
A
That dog's pretty tough. I guess my only concern would be do you think she'd side with the police or against the police? She's a bit of a lawless animal. She might be like, trying to cut a deal with the guy and like, you know, I don't know, I could see her pulling some weird stuff like that, trying to.
- [12:22]
B
You have such a low opinion of the morals of your dog.
- [12:24]
A
I love Lani, but she's in this for herself. I think if she'd gotten some doggy bones from this suspect, she would have figured out a way to sort of distract the police by being adorable and he would have escaped and then we'd somehow be implicated in the whole mess.
- [12:40]
B
But we digress.
- [12:41]
A
But anyways, so this, this, this whole situation unfolds and he eventually exited after four hours. He was arrested. And things get more disturbing from there, unfortunately. So they found a body in the house and with within, you know, separate from that, a severed head. So as of this time, as of August 18th, this person's not been identified. But the thing is, I was looking on my case and seeing if there was any sort of charges and whatnot. And it looked like there had been sort of a delay seemingly in whatever, whatever happened. So it's not, it's not clear at this time, like in terms of the, like there was supposed to be a hearing and then maybe there wasn't so much. It's all very early developing, but it's certainly a disturbing case. And I really appreciate the listener who let us know about this because it's a, it's a reminder that these kinds of, you know, random standoffs and kind of gruesome crimes can certainly happen anywhere.
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B
Indeed.
- [13:48]
A
My other Indiana case is in and I think that. Was that the one you almost picked too?
- [13:55]
B
I almost picked the Jeffersonville one.
- [13:57]
A
That was the one you almost picked. So we think very similar. So the next one is actually not too far away from Jeffersonville. I mean it's in the southern part of the state. It's Dearborn County. Dearborn borders Ohio and it, the county seat is Lawrenceburg. So this is a case and again requested by a listener. This. My sources for this are WLWT, Fox 19 and WCPO. So there was a manha manhunt recently in Dearborn county. And this came as a result of a shooting in Dillsborough. And this was something that like a lot of people in Dearborn county were just, you know, sort of caught off guard by this. Or suddenly there's like there's a manhunt and there's cop cars everywhere and roads are being closed. So that's kind of an alarming thing when you're in sort of a small rural county and then suddenly everything's being shut down because something's going on, I imagine. So multiple crime scenes. There was ultimately a body found. This is near a road called Texas Gas Road in sort of a little forested area and you know, shooting someone multiple times. That person was 39 year old Dennis Adams Jr. He's from Kentucky. And what happened was that in the early morning hours of August 14th in North Vernon, Indiana, Adams and a woman he was with a girlfriend, seemingly, you know, are at a home. They hear something, they look around, they don't see anything. They, they go back inside and then Adams goes to work. And unfortunately it seems like at that time he had been ambushed and shot. And it turns out the perpetrator, or the alleged perpetrator at this time was a 33 year old man named Brent David Wellman. Wellman is the ex boyfriend of Adams's girlfriend. So this seems to be the situation where you have, you know, what the motive would be according to the state. Of course we're gonna. Obviously Wellman has not been convicted yet, but it would be a situation where it'd be motivated by jealousy, killing the new love rival and whatnot, which we can see happen. I mean, we're covering a case pretty extensively right now where that happened, which is the case, the murder of Scott Macklem in Michigan So whenever people are saying well in those situations the, the killer only ever goes after the ex partner. Sometimes they go after the new man or the. So that can happen. So anyways, these situations, you know, a bunch of people start calling 911 pretty quickly. They're calling 91 1, they're saying there's a vehicle going around, there's gunshots, there's a vehicle stopped on us 50 and you know like in, in the middle of the high speed lane. So there's just a, you know, there's. They see a situation where a driver in a car is covered in blood and another man is crawling to the front seat from the back. It's just like disturbing stuff is being seen and there's just this ongoing search for Wellman. And deputies are, you know, running this down. They find Adams dead in the woods and then they are also searching for Wellman and they do ultimately find him in something called Lawry Creek. He was only dressed in his underwear. When you're into true crime, you know all too well that bad stuff happens in real life. There's danger out there. So it's no surprise that home security can prevent the worst from happening.
- [17:53]
B
That's why Anya and I trust Simplisafe. This is the home security system we use in our own home to keep ourselves, our dog Lanny and our property safe. And we're not alone. You can join us and 4 million other Americans who also trust Simplisafe with their home security.
- [18:13]
A
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- [18:35]
B
Try out Simplisafe. You won't regret it. Plus they've got a 60 day money back guarantee. We've used Simplisafe for years and Love it.
- [18:46]
A
Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. Listen, we're all trying to save money without compromising on quality these days. Frankly, Kevin and I need to ensure that Lani gets her fancy dog food brand, which is for lap dogs. Even though she's a rather formidable looking lady.
- [19:12]
B
That's why Anya and I made the switch to Mint Mobile. This is a company that offers us reliability for an extremely reasonable price. Between taking sudden calls from sources to wrangling with records departments for documents. We need a mobile service that we can rely on. You never want to be on the phone with someone talking about a horrible murder and have the line go dead. It's concerning for everyone. It's like something out of a bad.
- [19:40]
A
Movie, and that's why we made the switch. I use Mint Mobile and you should too. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of its unlimited premium wireless service for only $15 a month. And there's something for everyone. All of their plans boast unlimited talk and text and high speed data from the nation's largest 5G network.
- [20:01]
B
This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month@mintmobile.com msheet that's Mint Mobile.
- [20:21]
A
Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35gb on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
- [20:36]
D
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- [21:23]
A
Rakuten.Com and now the the affiant for the probable cause affidavit for his arrest was Detective Sergeant Jack D. Stevens. And it kind of goes into detail about all the different 911 calls or you know, different, you know, things that they were getting and you know, the the situation with the driver and Adams and whatnot. And this is what they said about the crime scene. Quote your affiant responded to the scene on Texas Gas Road. Your affiant observed a deceased male lying face down. Your affiant observed the male to have on grayish blue Shorts with red colored stains consistent with blood. Your affiant observed the male to have dark colored shirt around his upper left arm. Your affiant observed the male to have no socks on and wearing only bluish gray slip on shoe. Your affiant observed the other shoe to be lying on top of the brush near the deceased as reported by Deputy Cook. Your affiant observed what appeared to be a gunshot wound to the right arm with stippling. Your affiant knows from prior police training and experienced stippling or tattooing to be from unburnt powder striking the skin and causing a superficial injury. Your affiant further knows a gunshot wound can be classified as close range where there is still where there is stippling presentation end quote. And then he continues quote While at the Texas Gas Road senior affiant was advised that the Indiana State Police ERT located a white male in Lawry Creek near the wrecked crv. The male was only dressed in his underwear and had redness to his body and a cut to his forehead. The male identified himself as Brent Wellman and stated that he was robbed and then took and they took his clothes. Sergeant Pendergrast positively identified Brett Wellman as the driver of the bright blue in color SUV that fled from him on Huseman Road. End quote. And this affiant, you know, this detective further spoke with the woman who had been dating Dennis Adams Jr. And she said that they had been dating for about a month, he would often spend the night with her and that you know, they were excited for an upcoming date. And, and she also noted that several days before the murder Wellman called her, he wanted to go to her pro, he, he wanted her to drop something off for him. And he had been homeless at the time. He, according to him, he had no place to put his stuff and so he went to her house, he dropped off a pistol, shotguns, axes. So he was like heavily armed and they shared a child together. He wanted to come over and wish their child a happy birthday. And you know she, she tried to make that work, but it just sounds like he and the victim had never communicated. I mean they knew of each other but they had not communicated. But he apparently was making comments to this, this former romantic partner about he felt like he was being replaced. So anyways, that's kind of the situation there. Obviously a very sad situation where somebody was murdered and in a very brutal fashion. So we'll have to see how things develop with that. But that's kind of the situation out of Dearborn County.
- [24:48]
B
Thank you. It sounds like a very interesting and tragic case. And also, I almost did this one, too, because I remember seeing it and thinking about the possible parallel to the case of Temujin Kinzu, who, of course, murdered Scott Mack.
- [25:03]
A
There's going to be certain situations. In most situations, this is going to involve a male perpetrator, because men do most crimes, not all, but most crimes, and certainly most of these types of crimes sometimes, and I think oftentimes they're going to go after the ex girlfriend or ex wife, but there's a certain subset that's going to go after the new partner and then others that are going to go after both. So.
- [25:27]
B
First, I want to apologize if I'm like, seem a little off today, because we recently kind of reorganized the room where we record. And so Anya hung up on the wall this drawing of the two of us. And so now whenever I look at Anya, like right over her shoulder, I see this drawing of the two of us. And there's something magnetic about it because she's such a lovely woman. And also, this drawing was actually done, I don't know if you all remember, during the Delphi trial, one of the early days of the trial, an artist came in and she did some drawings, which I know some people weren't really big fans of. But for me, who was sitting in the courtroom and seeing all of these people do all these things, the drawings that that woman did, in my mind, did an outstanding job of capturing some of the essence of the participants in the courtroom spectacle. And so after the trial was over, I contacted her and said, please do a drawing of Anya and me. And she did. And so now every time I look at Anya, I see this drawing.
- [26:39]
A
Okay. I mean, I think, yeah, it was a situation where people were being kind of mean to her, and we were like, we thought it was nice. So I think you wanted to reach out and ask her to do that.
- [26:52]
B
She did a great job. Wouldn't you agree?
- [26:55]
A
I would definitely agree.
- [26:58]
B
So now I'm going to my source for this one. This first one I'm going to do is a Seattle case, and my source for it is the Seattle Times. And in life, whenever I don't know how to start, you can always just start by copying Anya. And you remember Anya's first case today, she started off by talking about a Clint Eastwood movie. And so I'm going to do the same. I'm copying my wife. And the movie I'm going to talk about briefly is juror number two.
- [27:28]
A
Oh, geez.
- [27:30]
B
This is a movie that we saw, I think, not long after the Delphi trial, directed by Clint Eastwood. And as you would expect from one of his movies, it was very well directed, it was very well paced.
- [27:40]
A
It was too dark.
- [27:42]
B
I liked it.
- [27:42]
A
Turned some lights on and I thought.
- [27:45]
B
The acting was great.
- [27:46]
A
Yeah, the story sucked, though.
- [27:48]
B
Yeah. The writing, the premise was absurd. In case you haven't seen this movie, the premise is some people get assigned to jury duty in, like, a murder trial. And some of the jurors say, hey, I know what we'll do after court is out for the day, let's go out and we'll investigate the case that we're sitting on.
- [28:09]
A
And there's like a former detective on the jury. I was very mad about it. Nicholas Holt felt like a real person. I liked his performance a lot, but all the, like, most of the other juries felt like they were just caricatures and like there was like, we're the people who think he's guilty and we're rushing to judgment and then, oh, we think he's innocent, but we're just kind of wishy washy. It just. No, no one seemed like a real person.
- [28:29]
B
But the main thing is people. After the end of the court sessions, the jurors were going out and personally investigating the case. They're like, going to crime scenes and scoping things out. And Anya, is this something that jurors are allowed or encouraged to do?
- [28:46]
A
No.
- [28:47]
B
You want to talk about why?
- [28:49]
A
Well, I'm not an attorney, but here's the thing. You might be sitting there thinking, wait, Anya, wouldn't it be good if jurors were so interested in the case that they were just, like, sleuthing it out themselves? Wouldn't that be good? Don't we want people to learn more and have more information? Isn't more, more, more better always? If you really want to understand something, shouldn't you just be out there on the interwebs, just sleuthing it? And to that I say, no. There's rules of evidence about what can come into trial. There's strict rules of evidence. Actually, oftentimes there's stuff that could be kind of something that might be salient to the public. But for whatever reason, either because it's too prejudicial or because it's not in the record, it's not going to come into trial ever. And that's okay. That's how it should be because you want to ultimately protect people's constitutional rights. And that means having very high standards as to what can be used against them in Court. And so when you introduce this idea that jurors are going to be just sleuthing it themselves, they're not going to be applying the rules of evidence to whatever. They're just, like, randomly looking up, and they're going to be bringing in concept and issues that are not appropriate. So when you have a jury, it's really better. Well, I mean, if any of you are ever on a jury, you know, don't. Don't be doing that, because that's totally not the point of a jury.
- [30:17]
B
Yes. Everything Anya said is eerily accurate. And I like to add something. Another thing to consider is that the defendant has certain rights. The defendant has the right in a trial to say, oh, the prosecution is putting on this particular piece of evidence against me. I want to challenge that. I want to explain to the jury why that's not a valid piece of evidence. And if the jury is considering things that were not presented in court, that means they're also considering things where the defendant was not allowed to put in their two cents. And so that ultimately is unfair to the defendant. Does that make sense?
- [30:57]
A
Yes. It's really important for jurors in any situation, regardless of anything else, to follow a judge's instructions to the letter and don't be doing any crazy stuff on the side, because that just disrespects the whole process and wastes everybody's time.
- [31:16]
B
Costs a lot of money.
- [31:18]
A
And it's not right. It's. It's. If you have a serious crime, it might be dragging the victims back into court, or it may be really unfair to a defendant. So it's like, if any of you are ever on a jury, just don't do it. And if you see anyone doing it, snitch on them. That's all I'm saying. Don't put it. Put an end to it.
- [31:39]
B
So with all of that in mind, let's go out to King county and see what's going on in the court of Superior Court Judge Mark Laranga.
- [31:48]
A
This is Washington State.
- [31:49]
B
Washington State, Seattle. I almost said it was the Sooner State, but it's not.
- [31:55]
A
You say everything is the Sooner State. Not everything is Oklahoma, but you could.
- [32:00]
B
Probably, when you're going there, you probably could take the Chunnel.
- [32:04]
A
It's the Evergreen State.
- [32:05]
B
It's the Evergreen State. So a man is on trial for murder, a man named Vaughn Weems. I don't necessarily want to get into a lot of the details of the murder that he is charged with, but one of his defenses is post traumatic stress disorder. A jury is Seated. And they're told by the judge, don't read about this case. Don't do any research about this case. Just base your decision entirely on what you see in here, in this courtroom. Very standard instructions, which several jurors then pointedly ignored. Because some of the jurors then went online and started Googling things like post traumatic stress disorder. And then they would go into the jury room and say, oh, guess what? I did some research online about this defense, and here's what I think about it. Here's what I saw online.
- [33:03]
A
Oh, geez.
- [33:04]
B
And as we said, no, no, no. And it was so bad that the judge said, this has poisoned this jury. There's no way to really fix it. And the judge is very upset. He's very frustrated. He feels the jurors didn't take his instructions seriously and he declared a mistrial.
- [33:28]
A
Imagine being so addicted to your phone that you destroy a murder trial like this. The young woman who was murdered in this, by the way, because I always like to mention the murder. This was a murder that occurred in 2021. And it was a young woman named Montisha offered. So this is a situation where, you know, whatever happens with her family or her loved ones or people who cared about her gonna have to go through the whole thing over again.
- [33:59]
B
And the defense team says it's going to take them, cost them another $150,000 to retry the case.
- [34:07]
A
The defense team said that.
- [34:08]
B
The defense team said that, and who knows how much it's going to cost the state. It's just a big mess. And they say, well, the jurors in question didn't realize that Googling counted is research. What, it doesn't count as research in the grander intellectual scheme of things. But basically, when you're in this sort of situation, any bit of reading you do related to the case outside of the courtroom, that counts as research.
- [34:42]
A
It sounds like the. Yeah, that is. It sounds like the deputy prosecutor on it was saying, well, let's not call them call a mistrial yet. Let's like, let's question them first. And maybe, you know, that what. What she argued was that most people aren't going to view Google as research, which I understand her trying to salvage this situation, but Googling stuff is literally researching it. That's just synonymous. So I don't agree with that at all. Yeah, that's researching. That's looking stuff up.
- [35:16]
B
The defense attorney also that she spoke with some of the jurors and they literally did not realize that Googling information was considered outside research.
- [35:24]
A
Sometimes it's really. I mean, I don't. Well, I don't want to be too disparaging of these jurors. Sometimes it's scary how dumb people are. Like, what do you think you're doing if you're looking stuff up? I guess I just don't even. People just reflexively do this stuff, and they. Frankly, I feel like it's partly like smartphone addiction to where it's like, you don't even think about it. Sometimes when I see people pulling up, like, AI generated Google results and just reading it without really, like, doing anything beyond that, it's terrifying because it's like, this stuff could be wrong or misleading, and you're just accepting it because you looked it up on Google and that's what you've been doing for 15 years, and yikes, you know, but this seems like instead of just it being in, you know, your daily life or like, looking up a, you know, a recipe for spaghetti, it's like a guy's life is in your hands and you're like, you know, what does Google say about ptsd?
- [36:21]
B
And look, look, Anya, what you just went and did there, you talk about Googling things via AI and just accepting it without question. What you've done, perhaps without even realizing it, is you've given us a transition to the next case.
- [36:35]
A
I'm so glad I could do that for you.
- [36:37]
B
Bless you. And this is the Australian case, which we got from cbsnews.com this also involves a murder case. And the defense gave the. The King's counsel. He gave the judge. Pardon me. The defense is. I don't understand Australian laws and titles. Let's just get that out of the way. The defense holds the title, the prestigious title, I'm assured of. King's Counsel. And he filed with the court. The court is. Justice James Elliot is the judge who holds the court. This defense attorney, Rishi Nathwani. He filed a document which really heavily relied on AI. And in this document, some cases were noted, some things were cited, some speeches were cited, and he and his team, they checked the first couple and said, oh, these are real. These are on point. All of them must be on point. And they give it to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor apparently doesn't check it, which is also a little bit scary the way we just, as a society, when we get something, we just blindly accept it without question. But the judge questioned it, and the judge started looking up some of these things, and some of the cases and things cited in this document were not real.
- [38:11]
A
Oh, my God. So it's AI hallucinating and making its way into court filings.
- [38:16]
B
And the judge was pretty upset about it.
- [38:18]
A
Yeah, I would be. I mean, I also looked it up. King's counselor, Queen's Counsel. It's a title in Commonwealth nations about like, basically a senior lawyer who is, you know, kind of, I guess, recognized by the courts as such as an appointment.
- [38:36]
B
So you're like a really important person.
- [38:39]
A
Well, I think the point in this situation is that if a guy who's considered like King's counsel is doing this stuff, you know, it's not really. That's pretty concerning.
- [38:50]
B
The judge was very upset. He said, quote, it is not acceptable for artificial intelligence to be used unless the product of that use is independently and thoroughly verified, which clearly did not happen in this case. This was in a murder case in Australia. There have been cases, certainly in the United States where lawyers have used AI that has caused them to cite cases and precedents which don't exist. And there was also an instance in the United States that happened just a few months ago in May, which I had not seen and which I think is interesting. There was a man who was killed in a road rage incident, and his family used AI to have that victim speak during his killer's sentencing hearing.
- [39:41]
A
Okay, let's just. That's not having him speak. That is a bizarre computer thing pretending to be him speaking. And that's not something that I am at all comfortable with, to be perfectly blunt, coming into court in any regard.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah. And in. In that particular case, I imagine that the defense is going to want to try to appeal to higher courts to see did having the murder victim or a simulation of the murder victim speak, did that in any way influence the judge when the judge was making sentencing decisions?
- [40:24]
A
That's messed up, I think, because it's.
- [40:26]
B
One thing to have the victim's family.
- [40:30]
A
Speak, but when these are real people. Yeah. Not like a computer pretending to be a person. I feel bad for the family. Obviously they lost somebody and, you know, I understand the why they'd want to do that and sort of it's shocking and, you know, might elicit a response from an attorney or, you know, a judge in this case. But I. I just find that very disturbing. It's not the person, it's just a computer. Like, it's a computer who's guessing words to, you know, seem like a person. So I think that's really ominous. I don't think that should be something that's allowed. I think victims impact statements are good and should, you know, be the Thing that we focus on not having a computer pretend to be the dead person. What do you think?
- [41:20]
B
I don't know. I don't know. I'd be curious to see if the judge makes comments about whether or not it did influence him. I tend to want to give victims families a pretty wide latitude in what they get to say in these sentencing hearings.
- [41:36]
A
Yeah, but the key thing is what they get to say. Well, obviously now what something is programmed to say.
- [41:42]
B
Well, they probably programmed it to say whatever.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah. But nonetheless, I just don't, I mean, I, I, I'm not blaming them, you know, they, they want to do that. Understandable. I get where they're coming from. I just don't think that should be something that becomes okay to just do. I just, I, there's something really that does not sit well with me on that and with frankly a lot of this AI use. I mean, how does this even happen that you're citing fake cases? I mean, like what is going on at a firm level that that even happens? And I think the answer is sloppiness.
- [42:18]
B
You know, a king's council.
- [42:20]
A
A king's council.
- [42:21]
B
And we all know what that means.
- [42:24]
A
I, I mean it's definitely, it's not just the Australians, as you mentioned, it happened here. We don't even have the King's councils and it's happening here. And it's, it's, I don't know, like it's, it's kind of scary because you know, what if, what if this isn't caught until some, it has some real repercussions on somebody's life. And then, you know, a year down the line someone's in prison and it's like, oh wait, you know, I, I, I don't think this stuff has any place in, in, in, you know, I, I think, I'm not saying that artificial intelligence and generative artificial intelligence has no place in the world. I think there's useful things that certainly can do. But as far as, you know, putting together a legal brief, I mean we.
- [43:13]
B
Need, we need people to check it.
- [43:14]
A
Well, definitely at least check it. Or maybe consider like writing it yourself like a, you know, using your God given intelligence before it atrophies.
- [43:23]
B
Do you remember last year? This is our limited experience with AI I had surgery and they said, well, it might make it hard for you to speak for a while. And I said, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll get some cheap AI program to create a duplicate of my voice and then I can type things that it can say. On the podcast. And you really hated that idea.
- [43:45]
A
No, I didn't hate it. I told you absolutely friggin not. We're not doing that ever. And I will have no part in this. And you just like to adopt new things and mess around with stuff. But that is, to me, that's you.
- [43:56]
B
Hating it, saying, absolutely.
- [43:58]
A
I think, I think that's creatively dishonest. I think that's creatively dishonest. I think that's intellectually dishonest. And I think it's, it's like, why are we trying to, you know, make, push out humans from like something as human as podcasting? Like, you know, like, I just, I, you know, when, when AI is invented and it's basically like, let's just take jobs from artists or creators, you know, don't we want AI to like, do all the boring stuff so we have more time to do stuff that we like to do? Why are we trying to, you know, foist off like art? And the reason is because, you know, it, it's it, you know, if you can kind of give everyone the ability to do crappy art or whatever, then I guess people feel like, you know, it's going to be an equalizer. But I don't, I don't like that. I, I'm not, I'm gonna like, be like, honest. Like that's not something I would ever.
- [44:49]
B
Want in the podcast. It was just for a limited time, my idea when I might not have had a voice. And I turned out I had a voice, so it wasn't irrelevant. But I remember when I tried to have the AI Kevin say things, it would sound like me, except for the fact that it would stress words you wouldn't expect to be stressed. And so it didn't really sound human. It sounded like Kevin, but it sounded unhuman at the same time.
- [45:15]
A
I just think a lot of this stuff is going to really bite us all collectively in the butts. Because students, soon it's going to be to the point where you can't trust any photographs, you can't trust any videos, you can't trust any voices. And you're going to have to be really looking at, you know, what platforms things are on or what the context is, or are you hearing it directly from the person or, you know, is there any other verification? I mean, we're getting to the point where it just seems like these tech companies and these startups are rolling out tools that will allow people to scam you. And then presumably the game or the grift is to Then roll out tools to, you know, prevent the scamming. But it's like they're causing the problem. They're starting the fire and then, you know, charging you to put it out. So I think all this gives me a lot of pause, and I would. I just want to be clear. We're never going to be an AI podcast. This is never going to be AI voices. Like, I just put my foot down with that. We're not doing that. That's just out. So, you know, that's that. If anyone's concerned about that, just know that. Nope, not gonna happen. And Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu, save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.
- [46:41]
B
Customize.
- [46:45]
A
That may have been too much feeling.
- [46:46]
B
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.
- [46:51]
A
Liberty Savings. Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.
- [46:54]
B
Excludes Massachusetts. My non AI idea was at one point I said, why don't we transcribe an episode of the Cheat Sheet and then re record it with me reading Anya's part and you reading Kevin's part and seeing if anybody noticed.
- [47:08]
A
And then I was like, yeah, but we also have a lot to do, so why would we do that?
- [47:13]
B
Because life is fun. You want to have a little bit of whimsy. Do you think people would notice?
- [47:19]
A
No.
- [47:20]
B
So you think we are so similar that we've just kind of. We're that bland. We just sound like each other. We have the exact same personalities.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah, we're pretty similar. People might be like, well, Kevin's a little spicy on this week's Cheat Sheet, but I don't think they'd be like, ah, that's Anya. Now people are going to be like, emailing us and being like, oh, I bet this was the week you did it. No, we don't have time.
- [47:49]
B
If we did it, it would be like, well, after the book because we'd be very, very busy.
- [47:56]
A
Exactly. Yeah. I remember when you were like, yeah, let's do this. I was like, when? With what time?
- [48:03]
B
See, I'm always about the whimsy.
- [48:05]
A
You are about the whimsy. That's true. That's why I love you.
- [48:08]
B
So why don't you read the promotional announcements? But don't go away, because after them there's going to be a story.
- [48:14]
A
So this is the. I think this is coming out, as I mentioned, on the 5th. So we are going to be at CrimeCon today.
- [48:20]
B
So right now, even as we speak.
- [48:23]
A
We are at CrimeCon and we're probably having a blast. And if you want to.
- [48:28]
B
What an amazing time we're having.
- [48:29]
A
You want to come to CrimeCon? Code is murder sheet. Well, no, you're. No, there's no code.
- [48:35]
B
You're already there.
- [48:36]
A
You're already there. It's too late.
- [48:37]
B
Sorry, folks, do you remember how much Crime Con, when we first arrived there, how much we enjoy that pleasant event and how much we enjoy talking to those wonderful people? See, I'm predicting.
- [48:47]
A
So we're going to be here at CrimeCon from the 5th to the 7th. And you know, we're going to be trying to really do a lot and say hi to a lot of people. So come up to our table on Creators Row. You can get your book signed. You can probably buy a shirt or something and you can say, get your shirt signed. And you can. And you don't have. You don't have to buy anything. You can just come say hi to us. We appreciate you just coming to say hi. So that would be fun and it would be nice to see a lot of you. So just swing by. We're gonna be. We're gonna. We're really going. The reason why we are so excited to go is to meet you. So you're not bothering us. Sometimes people like, I don't wanna come up and bother you. Bother away. You're fine. And then there's other events that we have coming up. We. In terms of future events. On Friday, September 12, from 6:30 onward to, I think about 8, we're having an event at the Greenwood Library. Very excited for that one. On Monday, September 15, from 6 to 8, we're doing an event with bespoke events in Columbus, which, you know, Anya.
- [49:52]
B
Columbus is the Athens of the Prairies. It's my hometown.
- [49:54]
A
You love it. You love it.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah, My hometown.
- [49:57]
A
Very cool architecture in Columbus. But that is bespoke events with. Wait, just hang on. With Viewpoint books. We gotta.
- [50:03]
B
Viewpoint books.
- [50:04]
A
Gotta shout out the Viewpoint.
- [50:05]
B
And if you go to Columbus, you need to go to Ye Olde Fish House.
- [50:11]
A
Yes. And I think those are ticketed events. So that's something where you probably want to go ahead and check our. I set up a tab on our website that's just events. And so I'm going to be including links to where you can buy tickets for some of these. Some of the events we're doing are not ticketed. You can just show up. Others are ticketed. There's going to be like a Little talk or whatever that we give and answering questions. So for the ones that are ticketed, I will just include the link and you can, you know, just purchase those if you're interested. But yeah, so Greenwood and Columbus are the ones coming up. There's one more, actually, a couple more. So September 20, Noblesville, Barnes and Noble Signing. That's gonna be in Noblesville. And you can come to that. Just swing by and we'll be signing books. And then there's one gonna be one in Franklin, Indiana, on October 3rd.
- [51:04]
B
October 3rd.
- [51:07]
A
So that's gonna be fun. And again, all the ones, I'll include the link to the event tab on.
- [51:12]
B
On our.
- [51:13]
A
On our show notes, and you can just go through and say, this one's the right one for me, or here's where I can buy tickets or whatever. But the one. If you have a book, if you have, like a book club or anything, or if you have a bookstore, or if you. If you want to connect us with someone who might want to do an event, please do so. We're very interested. And same goes for creators. If you have a favorite creator that you want to interview us about the book, feel free to throw our names in the mix or connect us with them or whatever. We're very excited to spread the word about this book. I feel like this book contains the truth about the Delphi case. And it's very important for me on an emotional level to spread that truth.
- [51:49]
B
Right.
- [51:51]
A
I think it's time for the story to be reclaimed by Abby and Libby. And I think this book does that. So that's the big thing. Any other things that I'm forgetting about, Kevin?
- [52:04]
B
Well, Anya, let's say that I want to go to one of these events, but I want to look my best. Is there any place where I could go to procure some sort of really stylish garments?
- [52:15]
A
Yeah, you can go to our shirt websites. They are in our show notes. And that's it.
- [52:24]
B
Don't tell me about these shirts.
- [52:25]
A
Well, why don't you talk about the shirts? Because I just talked about the book signings, and then I'm going to be saying an anecdote. So I think it's time for you to take the wheel.
- [52:34]
B
Okay, can you remind me? I don't have my murdersheetshop.com.
- [52:39]
A
Yeah. And then they're in the show notes. Guys, just look. Look at, you know, look what's in the show notes.
- [52:45]
B
And it's a great selection of lovely shirts. And don't you think whenever you wear your shirt, you look Like a million dollars.
- [52:53]
A
Thank you. I think you do, too. I think we look pretty cool.
- [52:59]
B
And you could look just like us.
- [53:03]
A
Everyone's like, no.
- [53:07]
B
Is it time for the. For Anya's story?
- [53:10]
A
So here's my anecdote. It actually involves kind of crime. So I was the editor in chief of my college newspaper, which was a really fun and cool experience. The Flat Hat for me. Yeah. And. And so, you know, I actually. I came to college and I was like, I'm gonna. I wanna be the editor in chief. For some reason, this was my goal, and it became very important to me. And. And I did it. So that was cool. But it was also one of those things. It was like, I think people, like. I think other people were like, yeah, I want to do this. And then they would, you know, work on the paper a bit. And then they'd be like, I don't want to. Like, I'm gonna go, like, live my life and have fun. But for me, it became. It was just like, no, this is my. I must. I must be the eic. So one of the things that happened was in, you know, doing a lot of. I did too many activities in college. There were. I had too much going on. I was terrible at time management. It was. I mean, I still am, but I've gotten a little bit better. But one thing that happened to me was I was consistently sleep deprived, so I was often very tired. I was staying up late doing things last minute. I was. I was sort of a mess, to be totally blunt. But, you know, it wasn't uncommon for me to sort of take a nap during the day because it's like, oh, man, I just stayed up all night last night trying to get that paper done. So this. This happens. I think my junior year. I think it might have been senior year, but I think it was junior year. And I'm the editor of the Flat Hat. I'm the editor of the student newspaper. And we were always doing controversial things that would make the campus mad at us because we had a very lax policy around opinion pages. And at one point, somebody left a comment on one of these controversial articles or controversial op EDS or whatever. And it was. It was basically a. It was basically like a. An allusion to a. A real school shooting. And I was like, oh, geez. So.
- [55:06]
B
So kind of like a death threat.
- [55:07]
A
Yeah. And it was probably not serious, but it was like, I better, you know, call the police. So I did call the campus police. And I was just like, hey, again, I'm. I'm probably like, I I think I stayed up the entire night before, so I was very tired. I was like, hey, guys, we kind of got a death threat. I don't know what you're supposed to do about that, but just so you know. And they were like, okay. And I didn't think they seemed that interested in it. I thought they were just kind of like, all right, well, you know, thanks for letting us know. So I leave my information, and then I proceed to fall asleep somewhere. I think I was in the library. I was, like, studying, but then I kind of just like, passed out at a desk. And when I woke up, like, my phone is just, like. Has, like, all these messages and missed calls, and it's just like, oh, my God, like, what happened? And all the, like, other people I was with, they were like, you know, on the paper, they were like, you know, the police are looking for you. Like, like. So, like, a police officer showed up here and was, like, asking where you were, and nobody can find you, and you're not picking up your phone. So, like, what's going on? And it turned out that they wanted to send somebody out to speak to me because I'd made this, you know, I guess, like, you know, report. And then they wanted to get more information. But at that point, I, you know, had my phone on mute and passed out. So, like, this got around campus, and people were like, like, Like, I think somebody said, like, they were at a meeting with, like, different, like, college administrators, and somebody was like, do you know where Anya is? I was taking a nap, and then.
- [56:46]
B
I panicked at campus.
- [56:48]
A
I don't know if I would panic to campus, but there were some. There were some concerns. That was my recollection. I mean, it may have been only a couple people looking at, you know, looking for me, but it was. It was funny. But then I met with the police officer, and he was just like, you know, I just. You might not want to, in the future, like, make a police report about a death threat and then, like, disappear for hours.
- [57:14]
B
That's a Crime Stoppers tip.
- [57:15]
A
I was like, yeah, that's fair. That's a fair criticism. But then it was really funny because, like, I. You know, they. But they gave me all this candy for some reason, and I filled out a report. And then they gave you candy? Yeah. They were like, do you want some candy? I was like, sure. And then I went, you know, and then they're like, we're gonna send out a police officer to, like, look at the student newspaper office so we can give you tips on what happens if Someone comes in and is like trying to do something bad. And it was like, you know, the old office was in this basement with these glass windows that I think we had papered over. Cause we didn't want people looking at us with like newspapers. But like, he comes in there and he's like looking at the office and he's like, wow, this is a real fishbowl. And I was like, what do we do if like a shooter comes and he's just like, call the police. Thanks, that was so helpful. So it was just a. It was a. It was an interesting time.
- [58:11]
B
That's a great story.
- [58:12]
A
Not really, but yeah. So I guess that's it, right?
- [58:16]
B
Well, should I. Very quickly, I feel like I alluded to this Louisville Bill Clinton story, which is not interesting enough for me to remember to tell next week.
- [58:26]
A
But otherwise the people will be confused. They'll be demanding it and they'll think.
- [58:30]
B
Oh, this is like a really interesting story.
- [58:33]
A
Saving it for later, saving the best for last.
- [58:35]
B
And I don't. It's not a good story. It's not an interesting story. It's just. It's just. Is barely an anecdote. So in 1992, Clinton is campaigning to be elected president. He's gonna make an appearance in Louisville. And so me and a friend, by which I mean me and a girl, we decide, well, we'll go down there and we'll see this event. And we get there very, very early because we want to get a good place in the crowd. And we are actually one of the very first people there. And he's gonna be speaking like in some town square up on. He's gonna be walking up on a stage or something. And we say, well, we can get really good, a good spot. And then a few hours later, the Secret Service comes and they start putting up all these barriers and there's going to be this. They basically secure like the equivalent of like a city block in front of him. And they say, you can only get in this area to see Clinton if you're like a big time important donor. And it's like me and my friend, the girl, we're like, well, this sucks because we got here very early and we're not going to be allowed in. We're going to be like a block away. What's the point of that? And the agent says, well, you know, either have to be the donor or you have to be one of our pre selected Secret Service community volunteers to help us watch the crowd. And the girl says, well, I have a coincidence. Amazing coincidence. To report. That's exactly what we are. And the agent looks at us and says, okay. And so we're admitted, and we get to go to the very front of this section. And so we're able to watch this speech like two feet away from Bill Clinton. And in a lot of the news coverage of the event and in some archival coverage I've subsequently seen in documentaries and stuff, you can see one of the both of us there.
- [60:32]
A
That is so funny, because you lied to the Secret Service.
- [60:36]
B
And why would you be having civilian volunteers anyway? I don't think you would do this today in 2024.
- [60:43]
A
I would certainly hope not.
- [60:46]
B
And do I look like a civilian volunteer? No, I look like a bomb.
- [60:51]
A
No, you don't.
- [60:52]
B
I look like a bomb.
- [60:53]
A
You look very trustworthy. They were like, oh, this kid's gonna be on it. He's gonna help us out.
- [60:58]
B
A couple of weeks ago, for mysterious reasons, I'm on a street in midtown Detroit going somewhere. And I'm walking on the street, and I see in front of me, I'm walking towards this guy who is a homeless person. He's picking through garbage, and he pulls out from a garbage can this bag of French fries, which had probably been left there the night before because it's like 9am in the morning. And he's really happy about this. And he starts eating the fries. And then he sees me coming towards him, and he sees me and he looks at me very analytically. He, like, really gives me the once over. And then he says, do you want some of these? So he thought I also was living on the street.
- [61:44]
A
Aww.
- [61:44]
B
That's how I look. That's the impression I give to people.
- [61:47]
A
First of all, I don't think you do. But second of all, that's so nice of that man. That poor guy who's, like, struggling and he was trying to share his food with you. That's kind of sweet. Poor guy. But yeah, that is sad. But I think you look like a nice gentleman. Well, apparently he probably just thought you looked like a nice guy and he wanted to help you. Pardon?
- [62:08]
B
Oh, you thought he was just trying to make friends with me.
- [62:11]
A
Yeah.
- [62:11]
B
Wanted to pal around with me.
- [62:13]
A
He was just probably trying to be nice.
- [62:15]
B
He like, oh, there's a debonair looking gentleman.
- [62:18]
A
Oh, man. But yeah, no, I think you look very trustworthy to me, so.
- [62:26]
B
And that's why you're here today.
- [62:27]
A
That's why I'm. That's why I'm doing this podcast with you.
- [62:30]
B
Telling stories about death threats.
- [62:31]
A
Exactly.
- [62:33]
B
So is that it?
- [62:33]
A
I think that's it. Thank you all so much for listening. We really appreciate it. And if you have any questions about stuff we've got going on or you want us for an event, email us@murdersheetmail.com.
- [62:44]
B
Thanks thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [63:06]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [63:30]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [63:41]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.