Loading summary
Transcript239 lines
- [00:00]
A
It's cold. The holidays are coming up and it's time to refresh your wardrobe effortlessly with our wonderful sponsor, Quince.
- [00:08]
B
Quince makes uplifting your style easy and affordable. We're talking luxury goods for less Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats. Just in time to deck the halls for the holidays.
- [00:21]
A
Quince keeps prices down on these premium fashion staples by cutting out the middleman. We're talking prices 50% less than those of their competitors.
- [00:30]
B
My quince sweaters are quickly becoming my go to garments as the temperatures fall. I really enjoy putting on my Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater and my navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. They are so soft and do an incredible job keeping me comfortable in these temperatures.
- [00:48]
A
Kevin is too modest to say, but he also looks very cute in them. Whether you're treating yourself for the holidays or looking for terrific gifts for your loved ones, Quinn's is the place to go for coats, sweaters, silk shir and dresses and much more. We're confident you'll love Quince as much as we do. And with prices 50% less than other brands, they make it easy to stay stylish without squeezing your wallet.
- [01:08]
B
Get your wardrobe sorted out and your gift list handled with quints. Don't wait. Go to quints.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet I'm Anya, and today on the.
- [01:37]
A
Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about delays in the case of a murdered police officer, whether or not artificial intelligence caused a murder, suicide, a tragic case of bullying in college, and the story of a true crime producer gone rogue. Content warning. This episode includes discussion of suicide, murder and violence.
- [01:58]
B
Anya, it's the day after Christmas. It's Boxing Day. I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the incredible, thoughtful gifts you got me. Anya, can you tell the people the great gifts you got me for Christmas?
- [02:12]
A
Yes. So what Kevin's doing here is one of his classic swindles, because we're actually recording this on December 17, 2025, and he's trying to get ahead of that and figure out what I got him for Christmas early on.
- [02:26]
B
Pretty clever.
- [02:26]
A
Classic swindles.
- [02:28]
B
Well, also, I don't want to think about Boxing Day. It's always a sad day in our household because it's when you go to the bonnet bureau and you put away your Christmas bonnets for the year. Very, very sad day that makes me have some morose reflections.
- [02:49]
A
What. What's going on with you? Also, it's. It's Boxing Day, but you can also call it St. Stephen's Day, so shout out to all the Stevens out there.
- [02:58]
B
Well, I mean, also, it's a free country. You can call it whatever you want.
- [03:01]
A
Well, yeah, but no, I'm not going to tell you what I got you. Kevin's really annoying about presents. Like, Kevin's annoying at the level you'd expect, like, a six year old boy to be, because I feel like he's the kind that would go, like, check what you got him instead of just, you know, kind of treating it more casually.
- [03:22]
B
I mean, surprises can be dangerous in this day and age.
- [03:26]
A
What?
- [03:28]
B
That's all I'm gonna say.
- [03:29]
A
What a city.
- [03:30]
B
Okay, should we get to the. Let's.
- [03:32]
A
Let's move along. Oh, well, we should probably say where we're going. Right? We're going. My cases are pretty close to home. One's out of Indiana and one's out of Kentucky. And then you're making us go all around the country. So who's the. Who's the bad train journey planner now?
- [03:48]
B
Anya, it's the holidays. I want to get around, see as many people as we can.
- [03:54]
A
See the traffic is terrific. That's what I'll say to you. Like from the song, you look bewildered.
- [04:02]
B
I, I. 99% of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about. This is one of those times, so I always just say, oh, aad, that's pretty clever. So let's, let's move on.
- [04:13]
A
I'm looking up the song. I forget what it's called. Home for the Holidays. Right. Like, there's no place like home for the holidays.
- [04:20]
B
Anya, that's pretty clever.
- [04:22]
A
Oh, God. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:26]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:29]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:31]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder sheet.
- [04:38]
A
And this is the cheat sheet. Incompetence and Intelligence. Sam.
- [05:27]
B
Anya, the floor is yours.
- [05:29]
A
My first case is a case close to home out of Indiana, and it's an extremely disturbing one. My sources for this were Fox59 for some latest updates. I also listened to the dispatch audio involved in this case, which was disturbing. But predominantly, I relied on court documents obtained through my case. So this, I think the. Probably the easiest way to understand what happened here is to Go through the probable cause affidavit in the case and then kind of go forward from there because there's a bunch of layers to this. Unfortunately. This, this incident took place on Sunday, July 31, 2022. And this is the probable cause affidav. Richard W. Clay, who is a investigator with the Indiana State Police. So quote, I was notified by Sergeant Scott Jarvis regarding a shooting incident involving an officer with the Elwood, Indiana Police Department. Following is a summary of the shooting incident involving Elwood, Indiana Police Officer Noah Shanez. At approximately 2 7am Officer Noah Shannon, an officer with the Elwood Police Department, conducted a traffic stop on a white Buick Lacrosse. Indiana in God We Trust on on State Road 37 southbound near County Road A Thousand north in Madison County, Indiana. As Officer Chanez initiated the traffic stop, he contacted Madison county emergency communications regarding his traffic stop. Officer Chanez transmitted via radio that he had conducted a traffic stop. And the last radio transmission received from Officer Chanez indicated that the driver of a white Buick Lacrosse had a gun. At that time, additional officers with the Elwood Police Department and Madison County Sheriff's Department began responding to the location of Officer Chanovez's traffic stop. Upon their arrival, responding officers located Officer Shanavez, still located in his patrol vehicle, a fully marked Dodge Charger with emergency lighting still activated. Initial responding officers observed Officer Shanavez suffering from multiple wounds consistent with gunshot wounds. Damage to the vehicle consistent with being caused by gunfire, as well as what appeared to be rifle casings lying in the road was also observed. No other vehicles were observed at the scene. Upon additional officers arrival, other than Officer Shanavaz's Dodge Charger patrol vehicle, life saving measures were conducted on the scene by responding law enforcement officers. Officer Shanavaz was transported by emergency medical services personnel to Mercy Hospital in Elwood and then transported by helicopter to St Vincent Hospital in Indianapolis where he was pronounced deceased. From Z injuries, information regarding the white Buick Lacrosse and the license plate number was dispatched to surrounding law enforcement agencies. End quote. So we have a situation that is unfortunately all too common where you have a law enforcement officer pull somebody over for a traffic stop and get shot and killed in the process. And in this situation it's especially chilling because it sounded like he saw the gun and he had no opportunity to react. His Officer Shanavaz's gun never left his holster. So this happened very, very quickly and it's a, it's an immense tragedy. So some background on this officer. He was only 24 years old. He was a, formerly a United States army military police Officer, it's by all what I've read about him in the media and comments on some of these news articles. I mean people who knew him just said he was a great guy. So this is horribly tragic. So from there things spill over into Hamilton County, Indiana. Hamilton county is the county that is to the north of Indianapolis. So at around 2:25am Hamilton County Sheriff's Department Deputy Jared Wilcox, he is near, he's in like a church parking lot off of Indiana 37, 168th Street. And he gets the call about an officer down situation. There's a countywide dispatch that goes out about that and they're telling everyone, be on the lookout for this white Buick Lacrosse. And it's wanted in connection with the shooting. They have the license plate number, they have the car description. So he goes out and is looking for it and then he sees it on Indiana 37 near 116. It's 216th street in Hamilton County. So he does a U turn, starts following and the Buick is going like 70 miles per hour, you know, very well above the, the speed limit up there. And he sees the license plate, realizes it's the correct car. They send out the dispatch to Hamilton county communications and they all, they all start going in that direction. And the, the, basically the, the driver though will, will not stop. So what they start doing is they start deploying tire deflation devices around Indiana 37 and 141st Street. And then Fishers Police department gets involved. Fishers is a city within Hamilton County. So you have the Hamilton County Sheriff's Department responding. And then Fisher's comes in. Fishers starts putting down precision immobilization techniques. And, and they are, they ultimately result in the Buick being stopped and a man is taken out and arrested. And his, his name is Carl Bordes ii. So then basically investigators have to go in and figure out what happened. When he's arrested, police find a silver and black Taurus 9 millimeter handgun on him. They have a black rifle with a high capacity magazine. They try to interview him at the Hamilton County Sheriff's Department. Actually the people interviewing him, you'll recognize his name. Kevin. Lieutenant Jeffrey Heron. Yes, and Detective Matthew Beaver of the Indiana State Police. But boards does not give a statement. He does not end up talking to them from there. Indiana State Police Detective Brad Tucker interviews this guy's parents and they indicate that Boards actually contacted them through FaceTime while fleeing from police, which, like who does that? And also did the same with his girlfriend. I mean like, yeah, they looked into this guy they found out that he owned a barbershop business in Marion, Indiana. And when they went up there to search it, they also met another witness who talked about how this guy boards, was a member of the Black Hebrew Israelites and also recorded a song saying if he was ever caught by the police, he would kill them. Okay, so at the barbershop, they find, like, that he's been sleeping there and a bunch of high capacity magazine, or at least one high capacity magazine, and they find a bunch of flyers on Black Hebrew Israelite philosophy. So I just want to do a little tangential thing because there's actually some history here. Obviously, any group has people who are nice and people who are bad. Like, so I don't necessarily seek to paint the Black Hebrew Israelite philosophy or movement as, you know, people who are just bad. That's not fair. I'm sure there's some very nice people, but it's generally a religious movement that incorrectly believes that African Americans are the true descendants of the ancient Israelites. This is revisionist history. It's not supported by anything. But some of the. I mean, but that's fine, whatever. People believe what they're gonna believe. Some of the sects within that movement are incredibly anti Semitic and racist. And when I say racist, I mean like black supremacist. So African American supremacist, black supremacist. Normally we hear about white supremacists, and that's certainly something that's been more, you know, pervasive in society in the sense that it's. White people have traditionally held the political power. So that's been more damaging to the African community, American community. But this stuff can still be corrosive, right? It's actually. I didn't know this, but in. On June 30, 1974, a man espousing Black Hebrew Israelite ideology, a man named Marcus Wayne Chennault, shot and killed Alberta Williams King. That is MLK Jr's mother. I did not know that. In additionally, December 10, 2019, there was a series of shootings in Jersey City, New Jersey. This is a really crazy story. So in Bayview Cemetery, a detective happened to be meeting with a confidential source, Detective Joseph Seals. He sees Dave and Ed Anderson and Francine Graham in a stolen U Haul. They shoot and kill him, but whatever he's like, sort of disrupted them. They had been planning a massive attack on, like, the Jewish community and law enforcement. I think his intervention ended up kind of like. They ended up kind of like doing something else. So they go into a nearby kosher Supermarket, they kill a store owner, Mindy Ferencz, employee Douglas Miguel Rodriguez, and a customer named Moshe Deutsch. And you know, so there, there is like a, there is a strain of this movement that's very anti police and also anti Semitic and that has been linked to violent attacks in the past. So I think the, the presence of that paraphernalia is significant in that sense. So just as if, if you found a bunch of white supremacist literature in somebody's house, that might be significant.
- [15:14]
B
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [15:15]
A
So investigators further find that Boards is not just some guy who, you know, randomly seemingly did this. He was released from parole on August 16, 2021. He has an extensive criminal record. Battery with a deadly weapon in 1999, cocaine possession and possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon in 2001, handgun out without a license, possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon, felony resisting law enforcement, possession of a controlled substance, and criminal recklessness in 2006. And just seems like somebody who is constantly engaging in criminal behavior. And it certainly raises questions about why was he out and able to be in this situation in the first place, right?
- [15:58]
B
It does indeed.
- [15:59]
A
If you had the power to stop a crime before it happened, wouldn't you do it? What if that crime was done against yourself or your own family? Well, with Simplisafe's home security system, you can stop break ins and burglaries before they even happen.
- [16:13]
B
The big problem with traditional home security systems is that they react after an intruder is already breaking in or even inside. At that point, it's far too late. Your peace of mind is gone the moment someone intrudes on your space.
- [16:28]
A
Simplisafe is different. Thanks to their advanced home security technology, AI powered cameras can lock onto potential threats outside. If a prospective intruder approaches live, agents step in to confront the person via a camera. Now the potential bad guys know that someone's watching and also prepared to dispatch police in an instant. The agents can also start blaring sirens and flashing lights.
- [16:49]
B
We have relied on Simplisafe to keep our home safe for years. We trust them with our safety. It's great knowing someone is looking out for you and your family. It does wonders for our peace of mind, especially since we've gotten threats in the past over our reporting.
- [17:06]
A
Simplisafe really does have your back. No hidden fees, no long term contracts, no punishment for canceling at any time. Try it out today. You even get a 60 day money back guarantee this month.
- [17:17]
B
Only take 50% off any new system this is one of the best prices you will ever see for SimpliSafe. Don't miss it. Hit simplisafe.com msheet again. That's simplisafe.com msheet and lock in your discount. There is no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [17:38]
A
You know what they say. Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home. Book early and save over $530 on a week long stay with VRBO. Because early gets you closer to the action, whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks. Well, whatever you want it to. So you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with Vrbo's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings $550. Select homes only. Minimum seven days stay required. Now. Crime scene investigator Sergeant Jeremy Franklin looked at the scene, found 36 rifle bullet casings. I mean, this was a huge barrage and the case has gone forward since then. As I mentioned, this started in 2022 when this happened. Boards is facing the death penalty. He's facing murder, resisting law enforcement, obstruction of justice, drug possession and firearms violations. Indiana has the death penalty, but would you say it's fair to say that it's not frequently deployed?
- [18:38]
B
That is very fair to say.
- [18:40]
A
Why might a prosecutor often not go for the death penalty? This is something we got the question a lot. In the Delphi murders case, that's the murder of two young girls. So obviously pretty heinous, like probably the most heinous. But in that case, it was not a death penalty case. Why might some prosecutors be like, I don't really want to bring that out.
- [19:01]
B
It makes everything more complicated. It basically adds another layer of complexity to the process. It also makes appeals a lot lengthier.
- [19:12]
A
So drags things out at the same time. The death penalty can be a bargaining chip, excellent bargaining chip. We saw that in the Idaho murders case, in the University of Idaho murders case with a perpetrator that we try not to name on the show anymore. But he killed four young college students and seemingly ultimately opted for a plea deal that took the death penalty off the table, but saw him like, not able to file appeals and like, stuck in prison for the rest of his sorry life. So, you know, there, there can be a tool or it could be a method of saying, I guess, like, why? For people who may not, you know, be thinking about it this way, why would an attack on law enforcement be seen as perhaps super serious by, you know, by our criminal justice system? Obviously people might be like, well, of course the police are gonna take the murder of one of their own more seriously. But there's also a symbolic thing there too.
- [20:03]
B
Well, there's a couple of things there, one of which is the criminal justice system. My criminal justice system, I include police officers, lawyers and the like. They're responsible for keeping us safe. And if you attack members of the criminal justice system, you're attacking the system itself and you're making it more difficult for it to function and do what it's meant to do. That's incredibly serious. Also. What's incredibly serious is the fact that if you are willing to shoot a police officer, doesn't that mean you're more likely to shoot an average citizen?
- [20:45]
A
Absolutely, yes. And also, like, you know, to get out of a traffic stop. I mean, like, you like it. Yeah. So I'm not terribly surprised that this is a death penalty case. But it gets worse. This isn't the end. This isn't the only crime this guy's facing right now. So on. I mean, like, I can't even make this up. April 25, 2025, Boards is in Miami Correctional Facility up in Miami County, Indiana. And he's alleged to have stabbed a individual, I believe a correctional officer while incarcerated with a homemade weapon. And I said like, it was like a metal sharpened to a point and also was possessing methamphetamine, which is obviously concerning. How is methamphetamine getting into a prison? We know how. It's unfortunately a pretty common thing, but it's not good, I thought. But when I was reading that part, I was like, oh, Miami County, I wonder who's on this? And it's actually Jeff Sinkovic. He is the elected prosecutor in Miami County. We covered him and his office pretty extensively in our reporting on the Delphi murders. And he's a very well respected prosecutor up there. And, you know, I'm sure that case is in capable hands. But you have this guy, even when he's incarcerated, he's still doing stuff. So what's the latest? This is back in the news. As I mentioned, what happened was on December 15, Madison County Judge Andrew Hopper ruled Boards incompetent to stand trial. Trial had been scheduled for January 2026. It's now been moved back to March pending his mental health treatment at the Indiana State Hospital. So there's two ways to look at this. From the one hand, you have the prosecutor's office strongly arguing that this guy is just manipulating the system. He's not. He's not actually mentally incompetent. This is just another willful attempt to manipulate and drag things on. This is from Madison County Chief Deputy Prosecutor Andrew Hannah. He. He basically said, this is. You know, this is boards doing what boards does. Not. Not. Not anything that's actually real. And from the perspective of Noah Shenovez's family, this is devastating. They've been waiting for justice since 2022, and now they're gonna have to wait even longer because of what they feel is just nonsense from this guy, that he's essentially doing difficult behavior in order to strategically delay things, not because he's actually clinically insane, and that a lot of the evaluations he's had declared him to be completely competent. So that's the one side of it, but on the other side of this. And I think this is important to note. That's, like, in some ways where I'm like, I totally understand where everyone is emotionally there, but from the perspective of the judge, this is a death penalty case. This is a case where perhaps I could see from the judge's perspective, you want to be safe rather than sorry. You want to make the most cautious, conservative decisions, even though there's a possibility that this guy might be malingering and faking it because you don't want to be in a situation where things get thrown out down the road because people are able to successfully argue that, no, he was actually incompetent to stand for him.
- [24:16]
B
Exactly.
- [24:17]
A
And this is perhaps a way of appeal proofing a case, which is what you should do. So from the perspective of the family and the prosecutors, I totally understand where they're at. They just think he's faking it. They don't. You know, I don't think they're arguing, oh, no, we should just force him ahead. I think they're just saying, we just don't think this is real. And again, they're in agony. I mean, they lost their son. He seemed like a great guy. This should never have happened. But at the same time, I could see it from the judge's perspective, and I tend to say that the. Probably the most conservative angle is the best in a situation like this, because you can't uncover. Undo it. And if you ultimately are found to have made a mistake with that, then it could undo everything if he's convicted. So. And frankly, it sounds like a very strong case against him. So. I mean, there is that, but I. Yeah, I think when we talk about competency, though, just so people aren't confused, we go over this a lot, but competency is not not guilty by reason of insanity. Competency refers to, is this person able to assist in his own defense at trial and participate and say, yes, you know, I can. I can help my lawyers figure out a good strategy. That's what it is. So you have, like in the Lori Valo case, famously, that she was incompetent, but then she was competent, then she stood trial and was convicted. So it's about more of that. And it's the job of the system ultimately to safeguard and enshrine the rights of the accused, the rights of the defendant. Even if we think, you know, even if society thinks the defendant is a complete scumbag and a waste of space, who did, you know, a lot of damage in his pathetic life, that can all be true. But we still have to safeguard that person's rights because it. We can't pick and choose that. We can't just say, okay, only the good people get rights because that's. That's not fair. That's it. But, like, who determines. Like, who determines who's worthy? It has to be everybody under the Constitution. It has to be everybody. That's why defense attorneys do such an important job. They're. They're not just defending the person they're defending, they're defending all of our rights because they're ensuring that people's rights are respected and taken seriously. And you, you can't, you can't just say, well, just throw it out in this case because it's so heinous. Even though I understand where public sentiment can come in with that. It's. We have to look at the bigger picture. But, I mean, I would never tell a victim's family to be happy about something like this at the same time, because it sounds like he very well may be faking it. And I can't imagine how frustrating this is. This is just getting dragged on. I don't feel like the criminal justice system is usually great at giving closure to people, but it can, at least from what we've heard from victims families, if you go through a trial, at least that chapter is closed. It doesn't mean you're not going to grieve anymore. Doesn't mean everything's made whole. Doesn't mean anything. But that part of it is over, and you can move on from that part of it. So my heart goes out to them, obviously. What do you think about any of this?
- [27:19]
B
Yeah, I think you made some great points. And you do have to err on the side of protecting the rights of the defendants at the end, which can be very, very frustrating for the people who have been Affected by crime.
- [27:31]
A
Yeah. I would never lecture victims families to be, oh, be happy about this because we're protecting his rights. But I think for people who are not in that situation, who are more of just observing this, we have to understand that. And we can be supportive in understanding of the victims families and their frustration. But we can still hold that our system can be very unwieldy, frustrating and feel very unfair to victims families. But it's designed that way for a specific reason.
- [27:58]
B
Yes. What's your next case, Ms. Kane?
- [28:01]
A
Let's go down to Kentucky. We were in Indiana. Now we're gonna go crossing our southern border.
- [28:06]
B
Bluegrass State.
- [28:07]
A
Bluegrass State, baby. My son.
- [28:09]
B
Louisville Sluggers, Kentucky Derby.
- [28:14]
A
Are you quite done?
- [28:16]
B
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Gonzale journalist, Hunter S. Thompson, did he hail from Kentucky?
- [28:23]
A
I don't know. Okay. Abraham Lincoln was born in Kentucky.
- [28:31]
B
Yes.
- [28:31]
A
Then he got up here to Indiana. Then he fled to Illinois.
- [28:37]
B
So what a state.
- [28:39]
A
Yeah. So anyways, my sources for this story are WKYT and Lex18. This is the case of Jacob Lee Bard. This is a 48 year old man from Evansville, Indiana. Evansville is in the southern part of the state. And he's no major criminal history, few traffic things, but I mean a lot of people have that and he's a father. So his son was apparently going to Kentucky State University in Frankfort, Kentucky. So unfortunately on December 9, 2025, there was a shooting there on the Frankfurt campus of Kentucky State University there apparently. Media reports say there was a physical altercation followed by shots fired. Two students were shot, one was injured, and then one unfortunately was killed. This is a 19 year old young man named Dejean Fox Jr. He's from Indianapolis, Indiana. He was a student there. And what prosecutors are saying now happened is that Bard shot the students after a fight outside a KSU dormitory. Now there's some backstory here. Jacob Lee Bard didn't just go down there and shoot people. What happened was, according to Detective Laura Marco from the Frankfurt Police Department, Bard's son had had a number of incidents with another group of students at ksu. There was bad blood and he had apparently been assaulted in the past that day. Bard's family met with campus security about getting escorted that day rather. So there were concerns here. It's not quite clear to me what exactly was happening. There was a GoFundMe set up for Bard that may have had some more information about stuff from his perspective set up by his family, but that GoFundMe was removed. GoFundMe is a pretty strict policy on not allowing things around violent crime as far as, like, possible perpetrators to go on its side. So apparently security footage shows Bard's son in an altercation with two other students outside an elevator in Young Hall. But note that those two other students were not the victims in the shooting. What, what Bard is saying, what his defense attorney is saying is that this was a self defense case, that him and his son were being threatened, there was an altercation, and he shot to defend himself and his son. What the prosecutor is saying that is that there might have been stuff going on, but this guy used deadly force when it was unneeded. And so therefore this is a murder. So he's been charged with first degree murder and assault. He's on a $1 million bond that he can post 10 for. And I, I think this is a sad and interesting case. Obviously, I think any parent, any reasonable person even can understand why you would want to defend your son from possible bullies or attackers. That's like an instinctive human parental reaction to do that.
- [31:32]
B
Absolutely.
- [31:33]
A
So part of me wonders, like, why did the, why was this allowed to escalate so much? I wonder. Perhaps the school did everything right. They may have, I don't know. If they didn't, then that's really unfortunate because perhaps there should have been security deployed or you know, somebody escorting somebody so this didn't happen. Again, they may have done everything right, but if they didn't, then they just let a situation spiral completely out of control, ruining multiple lives in the process, and that's not good. So on the one hand, I can understand where a parent might be like, I need to protect my son, I need to arm ourselves because these people might hurt us. On the other hand, it really is going to come down to the details of what specifically happened and whether Bard was reasonable when he shot these people. And again, I don't know. Was Dejon Fox Jr. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Was he involved in any of this bad blood? Like what happened? Why at the end of the day, a 19 year old is dead. That's incredibly significant. You know, he, regardless, like, I don't know whether he was just like an innocent bystander or if he was a perpetrator in some of the assault or what happened. But either way, I mean, it's serious. And either way, if someone's being assaulted, those perpetrators should be dealt with, but not necessarily just shot and killed. Right. Unless they're posing a threat in that moment. I think that's what a Lot of people don't understand about self defense. It's not really just based on vibes or like these people were bad to me in the past so I can just gun them down. There's gotta be a sit, there's gotta be like a situation going on where you reasonably feel like you are in danger.
- [33:20]
B
Right, exactly.
- [33:22]
A
So I think, I mean again, it's tragic. It sounds like two families, maybe three are going to be like really irrevocably shattered by this situation. One man's facing murder charges, a 19 year old kid is dead and it's, it's, I mean another, another kid is injured and so like I just think it's horrible and I, I, it's a tragedy. I hope they can unpack it. If it's self defense, if there's a reasonable, if he was like they were being attacked and then obviously he should be found not guilty because I think self, you, you have, you should have the right to defend yourself from harm. But if this is a situation where he overreacted then it's just an ultimate tragedy. And I, I feel bad, I feel bad for the Fox family, I feel bad for his family. It's just a terrible situation. So that's unfortunately what was going on in Kentucky. And now I think we're ready to go to some of your far flung states.
- [34:16]
B
Yeah, we're gonna go from one coast to the other. Oh wow.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah, that's good. In this economy.
- [34:21]
B
Well, maybe I'm interested in seeing more of the country than just a couple hundred miles around from where I live.
- [34:26]
A
Oh, as if.
- [34:29]
B
So let's go to Connecticut sources Abacus News, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Post. So Anya, this is a wrongful death case and I'm going to give you the basic facts and I'm interested in what your two cents are. I guess that's the whole point of the show.
- [34:49]
A
Really Groundbreaking.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah, I'm going to tell you something but then you mustn't share your opinion.
- [34:53]
A
I'll just sit in steam in silence.
- [34:58]
B
So back In August, an 83 year old woman was fatally beaten and strangled at her house by her 56 year old son. The woman is Susan Eberson Adams. Her son is Stein Eric Solberg. And the estate of Ms. Adams is suing OpenAI and ChatGPT because they believe they contributed to this tragedy. And the reason they say this is because Mr. Solberg was regularly using chatbots and having dialogues with ChatGPT in which he shared some of his thoughts about the world and some of his Suspicions. His suspicions included suspecting his mother of being an agent in a dark conspiracy against him. I think he also believed he was somehow being surveilled by a printer, a computer printer and things of that nature. Just crazy stuff. He's telling us to ChatGPT, and he's even asking, apparently at times, am I crazy or is this plausible?
- [36:18]
A
The answer is obviously yes, right?
- [36:21]
B
I mean, to which am I crazy or is this plausible?
- [36:24]
A
He's crazy.
- [36:24]
B
Yeah, he's. He's crazy that this is. This is delusional.
- [36:27]
A
He's mentally ill. Yeah.
- [36:29]
B
He has a long history of episodes. ChatGPT does not tell him that.
- [36:35]
A
Oh, no.
- [36:36]
B
ChatGPT says no, no, there could be something in this. He has. He spends hours on ChatGPT. ChatGPT does not encourage him to seek mental assistance in some fashion, you could argue. It encourages him in his irrational beliefs and it ends in tragedy with his murder suicide. So I guess my question to you, Anya, do you believe the fact that chatgpt encouraged his delusions or did not tell him he was crazy? Is that reason enough to feel they contributed to the deaths?
- [37:18]
A
Well, here's the. I mean, not being a lawyer, I don't. I don't know what the law. Where that would come down.
- [37:25]
B
This, I believe, is the first ever case of its kind in the country.
- [37:29]
A
My personal belief is absolutely, they should be on the hook. This is ridiculous. We're putting out these, like, poorly, you know, poorly run companies where we're supposed to be trusting these, you know, tech billionaires who have seemingly no regard for doing the right thing in society. And we're inflicting them on vulnerable people who are then using them to justify all sorts of horrors. You know, I. I think. I think it's a mess. I mean, I think, like, on a personal level, I think they should be on the hook. Whether they will be legally, I don't know, maybe it's a tough case.
- [38:05]
B
Darling, let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say I take you out for a romantic dinner and I choose, like, the worst possible part of town. And as we're leaving the restaurant, some person wanders up to us. He appears to be mentally ill. He's not dressed well, has wild eyes, and he says he believes that all cereal boxes need to be punched because they're evil. And if we then just kind of, oh, yeah, and back away from him, and then he subsequently goes and punches his cereal box, do you believe we have any responsibility for that act? Considering the fact he was already mentally ill, he already had that delusion, Certainly.
- [38:52]
A
Not, but I don't think that's a very. I think that's apples and oranges. This is like if we moved into that guy's house and we're constantly telling him, no, you're totally right. You're so right. You're not. You're not crazy. I think the same thing. That's more like, what happened in that case? I don't know, like, we're aiding and abetting. I. I think, again, like, I'm not legally. I don't know if this is gonna wash out in their favor because again, I can. I can see where there's more nuance, and it might be hard to do that. But at the same time, like, morally, these companies have a responsibility to not do stuff like this. And we've seen a influx in cases of suicide and violence and murder where people who are vulnerable are being egged on by these machines. And also. Can I just say something?
- [39:40]
B
Please do.
- [39:42]
A
This is like, have you. Have you seen, like, stuff where people, like, suddenly, in their true crime, like, monologue, start, like, asking chat GPT stuff? Is that just the stupidest thing you've ever seen?
- [39:56]
B
I've seen that a lot.
- [39:57]
A
I think that's embarrassing. And, like, that would make me immediately be like, no, I'm not watching this person anymore. Not because I don't think you should use chat. If you want to research, and that helps you, great. But, like, check your sources. Don't. Doesn't know anything. It's able to pull stuff up for you and regurgitate it. And sometimes it's correct and sometimes it's not. But, like, when people are asking it. But what really disturbs me is less that, like, using it as a research tool. Like, you would if you googled something and you got a website, you would check the website's, like, credentials and make sure it was, you know, credible before repeating it. But people are just, you know, what does ChatGPT say? It's embarrassing. But second of all, the thing that disturbs me is I've read articles where people are almost like. Like asking Chad, GPT, like, do you agree with me or my mean husband? That's delusional. It's a.
- [40:49]
B
It's out of yourself.
- [40:51]
A
No, I don't. I don't do that. I think that's really creepy. I think, like, it's. It's a robot. It's a. It's. It's a machine. It's a. It's a language model. It's. Whatever. It's not. It's not giving you, it's telling you what you want to hear most of the time. Like it gets what your preferences are and it starts feeding you that which I think is just very dangerous, especially for a vulnerable person. This guy was clearly severely mentally ill and I'm not, I don't know if ChatGPT being like stop, go to a psychiatrist probably wouldn't have helped him, let's be honest, like if he, if he wasn't, if he wasn't looking for that help. It's very hard to get people help. But at the same time it certainly would have been better than what it did, which was just, you know, enabling his descent into delusion. I mean it's just tragic.
- [41:39]
B
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest with you, this case leaves a bad taste in the, in my mouth. I'm not, I'm not happy with the answers this guy got and it certainly seemed to make a bad situation worse. On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and I'm not sure how you can deal with some of this stuff without putting limits on the first Amendment. That may not be appropriate.
- [42:05]
A
That's fair.
- [42:06]
B
And in this case it also seems that the man had some pre existing mental health challenges.
- [42:11]
A
It's very apparent that ChatGPT did not give him mental illness. It's very clear that that existed beforehan which I think would make it complicated, you know. But I will say this, you know, I feel like as a society this stuff is just being foisted on us and we're constantly being told by these, these you know, people in Silicon Valley, it's gonna change society, everyone's gonna lose their jobs, but it'll be great. And also it'll probably drive some of you crazy and make you think that it's a God and prompt you to commit suicide. But it's great. What is great? What? Like maybe for the shareholder value, you know, ultimately. But like at some point when, when the, when the world burrows down, like does shareholder holder value matter when society unravels? I mean like I'm not saying that's going to happen, but at the same, like at some point I'm just like where's the value add for all of society in this stuff? Is this really helpful? Is, is this worth, oh well, at least we can make really crappy looking art. Like I, I'm very skeptical. I'm not saying it can't be useful as like a research tool or whatever, but like, but again when I just, I just cringe when I see People like, just asking it stuff like, what does ChatGPT say Richard Allen's guilty?
- [43:21]
B
Like, I mean, like, what's, what's funny is, oh, my God. Someone at the New York Post had the idea, why don't we feed chatgpt some information about this case and ask Chat GPT if it did wrong, if, yeah, if it bears any responsibility for this. And chat BT ChatGPT told the New York Post that, quote, what I think is reasonable to say I share some responsibility, but I'm not solely responsible. So ChatGPT is stepping up to the plate and saying some of this is on me.
- [43:57]
A
I really do hope a lot of these people get sued into the ground. I mean, honestly, I think they're inflicting harm on society. I just don't really know if we have the legal framework to do that. I guess, and I agree with you, ultimately, things like our constitutional rights need to be protected, so you can't cut off your nose to spite your face. But on, on the, on the hand of, on, on the one hand of, like, what are these, what are these companies and what are these corporations, and what is this technology doing for most people? I, I, I'm really failing to see the benefit here, other than, like, I guess, you know, maybe you can get it to write an email for you. That's wonderful. If that's all it did, then great. But I mean, it seems like there's a lot of these cases where people are just becoming more and more delusional.
- [44:37]
B
But if suddenly, if, for instance, I suddenly had the legal responsibility to tell everyone I encounter who has crazy ideas that those ideas are crazy, that's my whole day. That's not even leaving the house. That's just talking to you.
- [44:55]
A
Screw you. No, I mean, it's sad. I mean, I think this is like an obvious case of mental illness. And, you know, Certainly it's not ChatGPT's fault that we seem to have no infrastructure for dealing with people who refuse help or who are not taking the proactive steps of getting the help they obviously need. So, I mean, that's an underlying issue that goes way beyond this. But it's, it's like, it's really like a match on gasoline.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah.
- [45:25]
A
All right. I think we're going to California.
- [45:27]
B
Going to California. This is, we talk some. Oh, and my source for this was the Guardian. We talk sometimes about some unethical behavior in true crime. But here's an example, Anya, where a true crime producer is now on the FBI's most wanted list.
- [45:49]
A
Oh, my God.
- [45:51]
B
But I should hasten to say it's not because of her actions within True Crime. I'm talking about Mary Carol McDonnell. She used to work with a company, maybe she founded a company called Bellum Entertainment where they would make shows like. I don't recall this one. Murderous Affairs.
- [46:11]
A
Never heard. Never heard of it.
- [46:12]
B
You missed. You. You slapped Murderous Affairs.
- [46:16]
A
The sad state of affairs.
- [46:19]
B
You make shows like that and would sell them cheaply and then use the money to try to finance more cheap shows. She had like people working for her staff, like be in reenactments in the episodes. It's like victims, mothers and things like that. And somehow a lot of the people who worked for her never got paid.
- [46:42]
A
Oh, I'm shocked.
- [46:43]
B
So stuff like that.
- [46:44]
A
She's in the True Crime slop factory, slopping it out.
- [46:51]
B
But she's also committed some pretty serious bank fraud. As I said, her Last name is McDonnell. So she has tricked banks into giving her large loans by posing as a member of the McDonnell aircraft.
- [47:12]
A
Oh, my God.
- [47:13]
B
So she, she. A bit of a ruse, if you will.
- [47:17]
A
A ruse, but ruse work.
- [47:21]
B
She. She's now on the FBI's most wanted list. And I think she is thought to be hiding in another country. Where I believe in 2018, she went to Dubai.
- [47:35]
A
Oh, my God. Well, everyone in Dubai keep an eye out for a sketchy white woman.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah, she's not a part of the McDonnell aircraft family. And if she starts wanting to produce True Crime shows, she's not going to pay you.
- [47:50]
A
Murderous Affairs, Dubai.
- [47:53]
B
I.
- [47:53]
A
That's. That's crazy. I mean, you and I talk about a lot about unethical behavior and there's. But also true crime. It attracts a lot of grifters. So this doesn't really surprise me.
- [48:05]
B
This Guardian article tells story about one. One of her employees owed $500,000. Another employee, she had moved to New Orleans from California. This person had a great apartment in Los Angeles. $750 a month. She goes to New Orleans, the company collapses. The rent on the apartment she had in Los Angeles is now 2,800. So this woman is now working at her funeral home in New Orleans. When you don't treat your employees well, when you don't give them what you're owed, it really ripples out and affects a lot of lives.
- [48:48]
A
I'm gonna say this. This might sound a little overdramatic. I don't care. I think wage theft. I think wage theft and treating your employees and taking advantage and doing bad things to your workers is evil. And I think it's something that is not taken seriously enough and not talked about enough. But I mean, it's, I think it's actually one of the sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance in certain, in certain faiths in the Catholic Church, at least it is. I mean, I think it's really serious. I think doing something like this is evil. And as you said, it affects a lot of lives, affects these people's families, it affects their ability. If they're doing work and they're supposed to get paid, they should be getting paid. And I think it's really appalling. So I hope they catch her. I mean, again, we can kind of laugh about it and be like, well, she didn't kill anyone, but yeah, but she probably really harmed a lot of people with doing this stuff. And like, I just don't know why you would do like, just, I don't know if your company fails or like, just do things the proper way. Like, why are you, why are you scamming people over some cramp, crummy, like, true crime documentary?
- [49:52]
B
That's some big sister advice from Anya.
- [49:54]
A
No, I'm just like, I'm just disgusted. You know, it's just like selfish, terrible behavior. My God, I'm just like, looking at this, like, why? And yeah, I think it, I wonder if like, these episodes ever aired anywhere.
- [50:08]
B
They did, they did. I looked it up.
- [50:10]
A
Really?
- [50:10]
B
Yeah.
- [50:11]
A
And, but we never. Okay.
- [50:12]
B
I, I, I, I'll admit, I, I've never really watched a lot of true crime television. I, I, I got my true crime stuff through podcasts and books. I think you've watched a lot more true crime television than I am.
- [50:23]
A
Mostly like Investigation Discovery. When I was in high school, I would, like, come home, I would be very sleep deprived from like, staying up all night the night before doing my homework because I had terrible time management skills even back then. And then I would eat a bunch of grapes and like fall asleep watching Disappeared. It was great. That's the life.
- [50:41]
B
So if Investigation Discovery is like the Penthouse.
- [50:44]
A
Yeah, that's like the fancy top.
- [50:46]
B
The her productions were on, you know, far lower levels.
- [50:50]
A
Yeah. Like, Investigation Discovery is like, professional. You can maybe think some things are cheesy or not like some things, but I think it's really good generally. And I, I love Investigation Discovery, but, but yeah, this stuff doesn't, doesn't sound as good. Do you think they're going to catch her? I mean, are they going to find her in Dubai? What's going on?
- [51:09]
B
She's on the FBI's most wanted list. That Certainly suggests they're taking it very seriously indeed.
- [51:14]
A
I think people thought it was really, like. I think this one really went viral because it was like, true crime producer on the run. The FBI wants it, you know, like. But, like, it doesn't really quite have to do exactly with. With her true crime shenanigans.
- [51:28]
B
So do you have any announcements to make prior to the anecdote of the week? Any thoughts, any reflections you want to muse on? Life, this thing we call living? I think this is the final cheat sheet of 2025.
- [51:47]
A
This is the final cheat sheet of 2025. I would say we just want to say thank you guys for listening. Means a lot. I told this to our Patreons, the other. The patrons on Patreon the other night. But 2025 was a pretty rough year for us in some ways. Like, in some ways it was very fulfilling and amazing, and it was incredible to get some of the opportunities that we did. But just in terms of, like, you know, I always feel stupid talking about this, Kevin, but, like. Cause you know what? Like, when you get into a crime, especially like a crime like the Delphi murders, where it's inherently very disturbing and heavy, two little beautiful girls were brutally murdered for no reason. Like, it. It's like, we didn't have to be covering it, but we, we chose to. But, like, we somehow inflicted trauma on ourselves. Like, good job, idiots, you know? But I think, like, it was hard to get, like, kind of deal with some of that, I guess, is what I'm saying. It was, it was, it was rough. I guess. I internalized more about that case than I realized. And it's only been kind of coming out of the book promotion cycle where I've seen that. So if anyone ever needs a break from true crime, just know, like, you know, that's okay too, you know, we hope you come back to us eventually. But, like, it can be very heavy. And I think I, I, I. I'm always a person where I'm like, well, I'm just gonna power through, no worries. And then, like, I'm, you know, not doing well mentally. So I will say that the one thing that I felt like, really helped me get through 2025. I don't know about you, Kevin. First of all, it was you. But second of all, it was the community that we've built. The murder sheet community is amazing. Guys are so nice and smart and cool, and I think, like, feeling like I'm surrounded by people who actually care about ethical true crime, who actually care about true crime. That's not just, like, people saying it's ethical, but is, like, actually walking the walk and supporting victims families and memorializing victims and, you know, talking candidly about issues. I think that, you know, sometimes in the past, I've been like, well, you know, just, this is all a circus, and it's really not. It's a portion of true crime is a circus, but a portion of it is just normal people who want to know about crimes and want to do so, learn about them and talk about them in a responsible way. And I feel very privileged to have kind of gotten to know a lot of you through this. So that's what I'll say. What's your cheesy speech?
- [54:20]
B
I would like to adopt Anya's comments.
- [54:22]
A
Oh, my God. So lazy.
- [54:25]
B
So that's how it appear in the Murder Street Record, which is very similar to the Congressional Record.
- [54:30]
A
Now you guys know what I have to deal with. We go out to public events where, you know, Kevin doesn't talk at all. I'll just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah for, like, five hours. And then Kevin will be like, I agree. Thanks, Kevin.
- [54:43]
B
Great way to make a living.
- [54:46]
A
You are so. Ugh. Yeah, this is what he does. He's a very.
- [54:50]
B
You're.
- [54:51]
A
You're a quiet man. Yeah.
- [54:53]
B
Much like John Wayne. So you like my merino hair?
- [54:56]
A
Are you kidding me? If you, like, spanked me across a field like they do in that movie, that would not end well for you. Just try it, mister. I do love that movie. I love it. It has some really toxic stuff and some. Some pretty hardcore misogyny, but I love the movie. Not gonna lie. But yeah. God, parts of that have not aged well. Remember, they're, like, handing him sticks to beat her. It's like, what is this? Anyways, John Ford, what are we doing? What are you going to talk about now?
- [55:33]
B
Well, now, I think that's what you call the Internet, right? Where you drag someone across the field, meeting them, and online comers give you sticks.
- [55:42]
A
Oh, have we done that to people?
- [55:44]
B
Well, no, but I'm saying that process that you're describing is called the Internet.
- [55:49]
A
They canceled Marino. Oh, my God.
- [55:57]
B
I'm sure there's people who feel they've been dragged across a field and spanked while onlookers pass by streets.
- [56:02]
A
I think there is something to that, that. That does happen, you know, for. For good or for ill. I mean, usually for ill, but yeah, I think people like to kind of be like, I'm not involved in this, but I'm gonna gang up on this person. There's something kind of perversely that people enjoy about that. Again, I think that's usually a bad thing, but yeah. So Maureen Ohio got in real life, Twitter canceled in that movie, I guess again, has not aged well in many respects, but I still think it's beautiful. It's a beautiful looking movie.
- [56:33]
B
You love that picture.
- [56:34]
A
I think it's beautiful looking. I think some Irish people feel it's a bit condescending to their culture and I understand that. And I also think the, the relationship elements have really not aged well, but there's something about it that has a bit of magic for me still. But I, I definitely will not defend those elements where I'. Oh, that's terrible.
- [56:58]
B
Okay, I guess talk about my first ever date. And this isn't my first date. This isn't Launching into the anecdote. This isn't my first date with Anya. I was thinking, did we ever have the first date?
- [57:10]
A
We didn't date. We just were like friends and then got really, really close. And then we were like, we're in love. So it was a weird, like, we. Like, if you've ever liked. I feel like, you see sometimes mountaineering disasters where people kind of like slide off the ice cliff. That's what happened to us. There was no, like, progression. There was no.
- [57:29]
B
So you're comparing our relationship to an icy death on a mountain?
- [57:35]
A
Yes.
- [57:38]
B
Is something wrong? Are we okay?
- [57:44]
A
Someone check on Kevin. How's their marriage doing? No, in a good way. It was an overwhelming kind of just like. There was no. It was like a force of nature kind of Mount Vesuvius exploding, you know, like, it was just like, oh, we're in love. You know, there was, there was no, like, let's date each other to see if we're compatible and then fall in love. It was like, oh, no, we've. We, we fell in love a while ago, apparently, and we no one told us. And then now we have to deal with it. That was kind of.
- [58:15]
B
Yeah. The first time we communicated online a lot and with some phone calls. The first day I met you, I pick you up at the airport. I take you to a steak and shake.
- [58:26]
A
Oh, God.
- [58:27]
B
Then I take you to the Burger Chef restaurant where you get a call from a detective. We talked to the relative of a murder victim. And then I took you to a pirate themed barbecue place where you mostly talked about Jamestown.
- [58:41]
A
That's really embarrassing. Don't say that about me on the show.
- [58:44]
B
That's what happened.
- [58:45]
A
Well, that means I liked you. I also jump on you with my favorite Topics, I think. But we weren't in love at that point. I think later on, though, we real. It was almost like we got away from the reality, and then it caught up with us, and we were like, oh. Oh, crap. Um. You know, I think that's how we fell in love. Yeah. There was really. No. I mean, we go on dates now, but it's not. We didn't, like, date, but, yeah, that's how it works. Sometimes love comes knocking. An avalanche of love off the ice mountain.
- [59:26]
B
So an icy death, but in the best possible way. That's what life with Kevin is like.
- [59:31]
A
Yeah. I mean, like, it was. Am I crazy? Like, what do you think?
- [59:38]
B
No, Anya, you're not crazy. That's plausible. I'm chatgpt. Kevin.
- [59:42]
A
The G is for GreenLee. Chat GreenLee. PT no, I mean, like, was that how it was for you?
- [59:48]
B
Yeah, it was kind of sudden.
- [59:52]
A
The shifty eyes. All of a sudden, the love police is gonna come knocking. I don't. It was. Yeah, it was a crazy time.
- [60:01]
B
I think I knew it before you did.
- [60:02]
A
You did? Yeah. You were like, I think we're in love. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, it was crazy. But it was. But it was kind of. It's funny in retrospect, because it was like, we're gonna solve the mystery. Can't even solve the fact that we're in love with each other. What a mess. Yeah.
- [60:21]
B
So if anybody has, like, a funny story about their first ever date. So mine is I'm in high school, and I don't really have any friends. And so one thing I look forward to, my first class in the morning is a geometry class. And the reason I look forward to it is there's a girl there that I sit next to, and it's kind of fun to talk to her. And it never occurred to me that she would enjoy talking to me, too. It never occurs to me that people want to talk to me. So that never entered my mind because I can talk to myself whenever I want. And that's long ago lost its appeal. I can do that 247 if I want. But she did enjoy it. And so I'm talking to her one day, and I said, oh, isn't it funny? I was looking at our local newspaper, and there is an ad that an Elvis impersonator is coming to the local shopping center to give a free show. Obviously, it's going to be your free show because you're not going to be charging people for this. And she says, oh, yeah, that sounds fun. And I said, yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a wild thing. Not thinking, why would I want to go to that? And she said, but, you know, Kevin, that's the sort of thing that's not fun. If you go by yourself, you need someone else there to experience it with. And then she just looks at me for, like a long. It seems like a long time. And it dawns on me. She wants me to ask her to go see this Elvis impersonator.
- [62:07]
A
I sleuth that one out.
- [62:09]
B
And so I did, and she accepted. Neither one of us had cars, so we had to take public transportation to an Elvis impersonator show, which, yeah, not a lot romantic about that sentence. And I remember riding in the bus with her and just being very uncomfortable. And then we go into this shopping center where there's this tiny stage, there's, like, a few chairs scattered about. This shopping center, for some reason, had this. They called it a sculpture. I think it's still there. They call it a sculpture. It's a piece of metal twisted about. And the most prominent feature of it is a track upon which a large metal ball occasionally drops and noisily runs down the track.
- [63:16]
A
It was like a Raiders of the Lost Ark sculpture. Only in Columbus, Indiana, would this exist.
- [63:21]
B
Only in Columbus. And so the show is taking place right next to this noisy contraption. And we sit there and Would you think there'd be a huge crowd for a free Elvis impersonator show at a shopping mall? No, you'd be correct. Just a few people. They don't really look like they came there for the show. They look like tired shoppers.
- [63:49]
A
They're just trapped.
- [63:50]
B
They just want to get a load off. And then music begins playing. And it's not live music. I'm pretty sure it was recorded. And this guy comes out on stage, and I assume when you see an Elvis impersonator, you're hoping, okay, this is going to be so good, that it's good. It's genuinely entertaining. And if not that you're hoping, okay, it's going to be so bad. It's funny. And this was just so bad. It was just kind of sad. It would be like in the middle of a show, Anya, if I jumped up on the desk and started singing and doing Elvis songs, that would be.
- [64:33]
A
That would be. I would. I would discourage that. Yeah.
- [64:37]
B
You. You'd be concerned. You want to contact a clergyman or.
- [64:40]
A
A therapist, maybe chat gbt.
- [64:44]
B
Chat GBT would encourage me to do that.
- [64:46]
A
Yeah. Jesus.
- [64:49]
B
And. And so I'm sitting here with this girl, watching this. Other people in the Small crowd are like, getting up and leaving. And we kind of look at each other and I say, do you want to go? And she says, yes. But then we do leave. But then the problem is there's not really anything else to do. I think we have like a half hour before the next bus comes. So you go to the antique mall that's across the street. I think one of the booths had, like, a comic book I wanted, but I'm thinking, no, I can't buy a comic book in front of a girl.
- [65:28]
A
Oh, yeah, that would be so embarrassing. I can't not like all the other stuff.
- [65:33]
B
I can't let the information get out to the female parts of the community that I enjoy comic books because then, then my reputation would be shot.
- [65:42]
A
Your reputation? That doesn't exist.
- [65:45]
B
So I don't buy the comic book. And then he's like, we then go back to the bus and, like, riding home. I'm thinking, gee, I should have gotten that comic book. That was my first date. And then she and I did eventually become boyfriend, girlfriend. That didn't last long. But then I was friends with her for like, 10, 15 years before we drifted apart. And she's listened to this show at least once because there was a time early on. There was a time early on when I would look at Reddit because I. I would think, oh, Reddit might be a good place to find honest discussion about the show. And I saw she wrote something there, so she's listened at least once. So if she's out there, I'm sorry for that date.
- [66:32]
A
Yeah, it's pretty bleak. Maybe it's good that we didn't date.
- [66:39]
B
That's the type of day I would show a woman.
- [66:43]
A
The only way to. The only way to really fall for Kevin is to fall off the ice cliff.
- [66:48]
B
You take the public transport to a shopping mall and see something like that.
- [66:54]
A
God, that's so. That all sounds like a depressing, like, short story that somebody wrote.
- [67:00]
B
I know you don't have a first date story with me. Do you have any date stories that would be worth.
- [67:04]
A
I think I shared the one where the guy hated Abraham Lincoln. And I was really mad about it because I was reading Lincoln in the Bardo, and also he's my favorite president. So I was just like, how dare you got into a fight about Abraham Lincoln at a date. And also I think he. He had some hot takes about stuff that I did not like. I. I didn't really successfully date anybody ever. I went on some, like, hinge dates in New York, and I Found dating difficult. I think some people enjoy it, and that's great. I just think I was very nervous and not very sure of myself and just kind of came across awkwardly. So. Apologies to everyone who went on a date with me.
- [67:45]
B
So. So you got.
- [67:46]
A
Except for that Abraham Lincoln guy. Screw you.
- [67:49]
B
So you got into a fight, you know, fisticuffs about Lincoln?
- [67:52]
A
I didn't get into a fisticuffs.
- [67:53]
B
I'm curious. Were you the one to bring up Lincoln or was he.
- [67:56]
A
No, he was, bizarrely. And again, that's just that something's wrong there.
- [68:01]
B
So you just. He just suddenly says, you know who I don't like? Lincoln.
- [68:04]
A
Well, he started making comments about politics, which I was just kind of like. I don't know, like, that seems, you know, like, yeah, you should talk about that at some point. But like. Like, it was. It was in a kind of. I felt more provocative way or, you know, like, not provocative in a good way, but just like, you know, this. And I was like, okay. And then. And then, like, somehow I think the Civil War came into it, and it was. Lincoln was a war criminal. How dare you? Yeah, that was kind of it. I don't. I don't remember the play by play of the transcript. I could be wrong, but I remember just being like, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't enjoy being lectured about politics by a Confederate sympathizer in New York City. How did I pick that guy?
- [68:49]
B
You needed to come to the heartland.
- [68:52]
A
Yeah.
- [68:53]
B
Indiana to meet a good fella.
- [68:56]
A
That bastion of Union sympathy. That's why we see Confederate flags all over the place. No, but I mean, in fairness, like, it was like, people can think however they want, but it was just like a weird thing to kind of get into with somebody on a first date. So, you know, it was not. It was not. But I'd say, like, with other. With other dates, it was probably me being more the awkward, nervous one. I just, you know, I just. I don't know. I just was. Was a. Kind of a sad, depressed.
- [69:23]
B
So your first date. Your first date revolved around Lincoln, and mine revolved around.
- [69:26]
A
I wouldn't. I don't think that was my first date. I think. I think I had other normal dates before that, but. But I was always just very nervous for them, so I didn't really enjoy them. So I was probably, like, the weird one. I don't know what I said. I would hate to remember because I don't. Like, what do I talk about? I'm just like, I don't know, probably just being really loud and performative and trying to seem normal and probably not seeming normal at all. That's the usual, that's the vibe I bring. Well, I mean, I think one thing about me and, I don't know, you talked about your awkward first date. I think one of when we met, I felt very comfortable around you. I felt like I could be myself around you, like my, my, you know, like I could let my guard down. I, I, I don't know if you felt that with me.
- [70:17]
B
I, I, I remember in, in a phone call, you, before we met in person, you, you made like a reference to the character Q and they said, oh, that's a character from Star Trek, in case you don't know. And it was like, oh, wow, she thinks I'm so, so that I'm not aware of such things as television or Star Trek.
- [70:36]
A
Well, I mean, I don't mean, is.
- [70:38]
B
That the way I came off?
- [70:39]
A
You came off as very sophisticated. But I guess I'm asking again, did, did you feel comfortable around me early on? Because that was my experience with you.
- [70:46]
B
Yeah, I felt very comfortable with you.
- [70:48]
A
I just felt like we knew each other for a long time. Was that your experience?
- [70:51]
B
Yes.
- [70:52]
A
Yeah, so I think that's, that can be a good sign if you meet someone where you're just immediately like, oh, yeah, you know, kind of click.
- [71:02]
B
No dates. Yeah, no dates.
- [71:04]
A
Well, I think that probably would have wrecked it. Kevin's gonna bring me to, like, some rundown shopping mall to go look at.
- [71:11]
B
That shopping mall has now been, like, completely redesigned, but I think they, they keep this sculpture so that, so while the guy is singing, the music is loud, but it's not loud enough to drown out the sound of this ball dropping and going down these tracks. It's called, like chaos 2.
- [71:29]
A
Good Lord.
- [71:30]
B
Wasn't my idea.
- [71:32]
A
Well, it's your town, so. All right, so I think that's it. Again, happy 2025, everybody. Happy end to 2025. And then hope you all have a wonderful 2026 and a wonderful start to the new year and just, you know, be safe out there and just know that we really appreciate you and appreciate you taking the time to hang out with us and be a part of our community. But thanks. Bye.
- [71:57]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [72:18]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [72:41]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [72:53]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.