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- [00:00]
A
Fall's my favorite season and even more so this year because I get to bust out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. These are two of my favorite pieces of clothing that I own and I got them for such a reasonable price thanks to Quince.
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B
And since Quint's clothes stay in style, you'll be investing in fashion staples that last add some luxury to your life.
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A
Between Kevin's cool bomber jacket and my sweaters, it's the perfect clothing for our favorite fall activities like wandering around searching for old timey historical crime scenes or picking pumpkins.
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B
My Quince jacket looks nice and keeps me comfortable. Plus it's half the cost of similar products from Quince's competitors. Soon we'll be checking out Quince again and I will encourage Anya to finally get some more berets.
- [00:50]
A
Check out Quinte. This is a brand I'm so excited about. I'm constantly talking about it with everyone. Again, their pieces are like half the cost of similar brands.
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B
Find your fall staples at quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
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A
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B
Anya and I deal with aches, pains, discomfort, stress, a desperate need to unwind at the end of a tough day. Well, Cornbread Hemp's CBD gummies help us manage all of that. They give us a natural way to achieve relief from aches and pains. They work with your body, not against it, and they've become a big part of our wellness routines.
- [01:51]
A
Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies have made me feel so much better. I tense up a lot, so I often deal with tension headaches and things like neck pain. With tasty flavors like watermelon and berry, these gummies help me with the pain and sleeplessness that I sometimes deal with. I can take them in the middle of a hectic workday or even at night. Once I want to just relax and watch some kind of old mystery movie with Kevin. These gummies make me feel like my stress is just melting away.
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B
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A
Murder Sheet listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code MSHEET at checkout. That's cornbread.com msheet and use code msheet Parle tout francais? Hablas espanol? Parlle italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation based techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com wandery spelled B A B-B-E-L.com wandery rules and restrictions may apply.
- [03:32]
B
Content warning this episode includes discussion of murder, including the murder of children. It also features domestic violence. So I wanted to say welcome to a very special episode of the Cheat Sheet. Now, of course, when I was a child, they say, oh, this is a very special episode of a sitcom. It'd be about something like extra sad and depressing. But pretty much all of our episodes are about that. So this isn't extra sad or depressing. This is about our Patreon, because we don't really push our patreon that much on the show, but we do have one. And as part of that, we do a couple of lives with some our members. And on the live we did this week, something remarkable happened that I think needs to be commemorated and celebrated. And so it is. What happened is Anya, who, by the way, is here with me. She hasn't spoken yet, but she is, she's over there glaring at me.
- [04:47]
A
With Kevin's solo effort. Read into that what you will.
- [04:53]
B
But Anya, at long last, she bowed to the pressure. She bowed to the incessant demands both inside and outside this household. And she wore a beret. And you admitted that you were wrong to hesitate about the beret. You admitted it was a fine look for a young lady.
- [05:13]
A
I, I kind of put it like at an angle on the back of my head so it didn't look super dumb. It, you know, I wasn't like, I don't want people to get the wrong impression here. It was like, could have been any kind of hat, but it ended up not looking super dumb because I wasn't, you know, I just imagined it being looking really Bad. But. But as. As I put it on, it was fine.
- [05:35]
B
You wore the kind of a jaunty angle.
- [05:37]
A
I don't know if I'd call the angle jaunty.
- [05:40]
B
It was jaunty.
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A
We.
- [05:41]
B
We all enjoyed it. I think it attracted much comment. Certainly it got some of the other.
- [05:47]
A
People in the Patreon, they told me they were. I mean, we can't see them when we're in the live. But they said I'm also wearing a beret, so I believe them. Hashtag beret bunch.
- [05:56]
B
And they posted images of themselves in our Facebook group.
- [05:59]
A
So I. That confirmed it. You know, trust but verify. Right? That's what you're supposed to do.
- [06:03]
B
Anya is very, very suspicious.
- [06:05]
A
Folks, I'm not so sure about this one.
- [06:08]
B
So because of that, a full half of our cases this week are going to be related to France. So sacre bleu. Oui, oui.
- [06:18]
A
Oh, God. I apologize to any. The two people listening.
- [06:22]
B
In France, some great French writers.
- [06:26]
A
Kevin's a bit of a Francophile in.
- [06:28]
B
Terms of literature, but I took a couple years of French in college, but as you heard from my pronunciation, it didn't really take.
- [06:37]
A
Who's your favorite of the French authors? So we can get that on the record.
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B
Oh, Hanja, there's many of them. You have your Balzac, your Zola, your Flaubert.
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A
Who's the best one?
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B
They all bring something to the table.
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A
Okay. But gun to your head, who's the best one?
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B
They all bring something. They're all Maupassant. They're all fine writers.
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A
Who's your favorite? I enjoy them all. Oh, my God. So evasive. So. And then two of our cases are very close to home in Indiana, so that'll be. That's kind of interesting.
- [07:10]
B
And they're more of, like, updates.
- [07:13]
A
Yes. There's an intersection here. And historically, I was in Indiana, part of the territory that the French fur traders were going into in the colonial period.
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B
Okay.
- [07:21]
A
Yes. And that's why there's so many French names, I think, in some of these.
- [07:25]
B
Yeah. I also, as an elementary school student, I took Indiana history, which also apparently didn't take.
- [07:32]
A
We spend a lot of time in Lafayette, which is named after a famous Frenchman, the Marquis de Lafayette.
- [07:37]
B
Okay.
- [07:38]
A
He did a big, like, retirement tour in the United States, and everyone named a town after him. Basically, that's why there's so many places called Lafayette and, like, Fayetteville and stuff like that.
- [07:47]
B
Okay.
- [07:48]
A
But now we're. We can go and we. We're going to. We're Going far? Abroad, maybe. Maybe requiring some transportation through the Chunnel. Even know that's. Are you done with the tunnel? You. You haven't mentioned it in a while.
- [08:02]
B
I don't know what you're referring to. What is this?
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A
Okay, I'm going to literally kill you after we're done recording. How dare you do this to me? You're the worst. This is disrespectful. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [08:22]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [08:34]
A
And this is the cheat sheet. Jewels and justice. Sam.
- [09:24]
B
I think we wanted to start. Correct me if I'm wrong, with a small update in the Delphi case. The Delphi murders case. This involves Richard Allen, who of course, was convicted of the murder of Libby German and Abigail Williams. When people get convicted of murder, there's often an appeals process. The brief that's going to be filed by his appellate team keeps getting delayed. One of the issues is his appellate counsel said they don't have all of the exhibits from certain things that were filed. It's unclear if this is the fault of the court reporter or if it's the fault of Mr. Allen's trial counsel.
- [10:08]
A
One guess, Mr. Baldwin.
- [10:14]
B
Because when Mr. Baldwin filed some of his exhibits with some of his motions, he did not go through the system the way it's usually done. I think he actually drove to the courthouse and gave whoever somebody there some sort of flash drive with the exhibits on there.
- [10:33]
A
Terminal. Terminal case of main character syndrome. That's all. I'll say.
- [10:38]
B
So it is unclear where the problem lies, but the appellate team says, oh, we need to have all of these exhibits before we do our brief. And so they've asked for. And they got another delay this week. Originally, the brief, the final deadline was going to be October 21st, which is, of course, earlier this week. And it's gotten delayed again, I believe. When I look at this language, it says the court reporter has 20 days to hand over all the exhibits. And I guess 30 days after that, the brief needs to be filed.
- [11:20]
A
So we could be looking at 50 days. Yeah, about. Unless they ask for another delay and get another delay.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which could also happen.
- [11:29]
B
Or maybe even longer, because it says there's also. Yeah, it's just there's a lot of.
- [11:34]
A
Math in this opinion, and frankly, and.
- [11:36]
B
We'Re not mathematicians, so I'm going to give you my two cents. And then I'd love to get your feedback. Ms. Kane. I think a lot of people are looking at some of these delays and are feeling frustrated because they just want it to be over. And to those people, I have good news and I have bad news. The good news is, in a very real, substantial way, this is over. Richard Allen was convicted by a jury of his peers. Say what you will about Judge Gull, God knows I've said a lot about her. She ran a fair trial. It's extraordinarily rare for a verdict in a criminal trial like this to get overturned. I don't expect it to happen here. Richard Allen is going to die in prison. And if he is remembered, he will be remembered as a child killer, a man who took two lives out of this world, both of whom contributed far more to this world than he ever did, even though he lived decades longer than they. So in that way, it is over. Now the bad news is, in another way, it's never going to be over. Because if you look at some high profile cases that have attracted a lot of media attention and hangers on, for lack of a better word, groupies, you will see that there is a tendency for there to be court filings and litigation for decades after the conviction. Maybe an example would be the Jeffrey McDonald case.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah, that's an excellent example. Another man who's clearly guilty.
- [13:34]
B
Yes. So I would expect for something similar to happen in this case, that there's going to probably be a lot of filings and litigation in this case created and instigated by Mr. Allen and his supporters, which will ultimately go nowhere. So it's going to be a constant irritant or constant bit of static in the background, I don't think it's going to lead to anything. So if the appellate counsel feels they need a bit more time to do a brief that in all likelihood is going to fail. I mean, my attitude is, who cares? Sure. I don't care if it comes out now or a month from now. I want them to feel that they have given it the best shot they can when it fails. And I'm not being biased here, just look at the statistics, look at the facts. The vast, vast majority of these fail. And so I guess that's where I am. I wish there had been better communication, this extension to the court. Granted, they granted. After the deadline passed, I wished for all of us following the case and who care about the case. I wish there had been clearer communication. But if they need more time to file something that again, in all likelihood isn't going to succeed. Fine. Who cares?
- [15:08]
A
Yeah.
- [15:09]
B
Where are you at?
- [15:10]
A
I guess what I'll be most curious about and what I'm thinking about most around this is where, and I agree with everything you just said, by the way. I think it was very well put. I, I want to know what direction their appeal is going to take. There's been some indications based on filings they've done, we think that the third party, no surprise their third party, you know, theory, AKA Odinism, was so great and the judge wouldn't let us do it, and that was mean. We think that's going to take a center stage. I don't know how I. That seems pretty weak, frankly, because it was a badly cobbled together theory where they had, you know, chief instigators as far as they were concerned, who had alibis. So. Oops, that's. Yeah, you know, there has to be a standard. But they're going to argue, that they're gonna argue seems to be going back to the probable cause affidavit saying, well, the police lied in the probable cause affidavit because they didn't mention Odinism. I mean, that was sort of how the defense originally framed it. I don't know if the appellate attorneys will do a different riff on that. That also seems incredibly weak. You do not have to put everything in a probable cause affidavit. That's just stupid. But, you know, they may have a better way of putting it or maybe, maybe they have some angle around that. Or, you know, they may also just be weighing some of these options. I'll be curious if they do. Ineffective counsel, essentially calling into question the effectiveness of Andrew Baldwin, Bradley, Rosie and Jennifer. O.J. as far as trial counsel goes, they've not given any indications that they will do that. Many of you be. Many people frequently come up like, that's like the question we get a lot when went from being do you think he's really guilty? To people accepting that. And then now they come up to us and say, so do you think they're gonna like, get an appeal based on if, like on, on these guys really messing up? And, you know, that's a high bar, you know, like, you really have to mess up pretty badly for you to be considered ineffective. Richard Allen fought for these people to come on after they were removed by the judge who felt that they were being incompetent. So it seems like that would be a tricky thing to do, but, you know, it would certainly set a lot of heads afire in the crank community. The defense Daddies are being dragged, but I will see.
- [17:32]
B
I'm not even sure if it would upset too many people in the crank community. Every once in a while I check in there, and there certainly seems to be a growing awareness in those quarters of things that we reported on literally years ago.
- [17:46]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [17:48]
B
Which is that that team did not really do a great job.
- [17:53]
A
The murder, she was right. Wow. Don't you just want to go like, welcome to the resistance, cranks.
- [18:00]
B
We literally said time and time again while this was ongoing. If you care about Richard Allen, if you're a family or a friend of this man and you care about him, you should be deeply concerned about the quality of legal representation he is giving.
- [18:17]
A
And we got like, threats and like harassment over that, and now people are saying, oh, yeah, no, that's true. That's hilarious. Honestly, these people are just. I mean, well, let's just say this. They're not intellectual giants. I guess I'll put it that way.
- [18:28]
B
Are you talking about the cranks or the attorneys?
- [18:32]
A
No comment, everybody. No, I, you know, it's just like, it's the typical, like, oh, my football team's better than yours. Oh, no, I don't like my coach because we lost. You know, it's just like, okay, you know, like, have. Have fun with that, I guess, if that's, you know, your hobby. But I think, honestly I. I've just seen most of the chatter around Delphi kind of mostly fade away. I mean, like, you still see it, but it's. It's certainly not at the fever pitch it once was. As busy true crime podcasters covering so many cases, we have to make a pretty strenuous effort to clean our house at the end of the day. That's frankly time we could spend unwinding and relaxing after a day in court or, or on the phone wrangling FOIA records. That's why we find our wonderful new sponsor, Homaglo. So amazing. Homaglow is a top rated home service platform. They're all about making your space clean and tidy. Their online booking capabilities ensure you can hop on there, schedule a cleaner in an instant. They're affordable, convenient, and sometimes so necessary for beating the stress around house cleaning.
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B
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B
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- [20:38]
A
Are the windows to your soul and your glasses are the windows to your eyes, then it's pretty important to find your perfect frames. That's why at Warby Parker, we've made shopping for eyewear as easy and fun as can be. Peruse endless styles in our stores or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. To find your next favorite pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to locate your nearest Warby Parker store, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com I'm sure the appeal will resurrect things temporarily, but as you said, it's over. You know, I just think of what Richard Allen told Lt. Jerry Ulman in in when he his house was being searched. It doesn't matter. It's over.
- [21:24]
B
Now. With that said, when the appellate brief comes out, these are very good lawyers handling it. Stacey Uliana and Mark Lehman. It's going to be much better written and much better prepared than anything you saw from the trial counsel. It's going to be very well done. It's going to be the best possible presentation of arguments that I feel are likely to be very much wanting. But it's going to be presented in the strongest possible way. And I have confidence in that much.
- [22:00]
A
Yeah, I'll be curious to see it. And we'll certainly be there to look at it, discuss it, discuss responses to it once it comes out, whenever that may be, however many years from now.
- [22:12]
B
Do you as long as the Cane train is here in the Hoosier heartland before we go to the airport and jet over to France with our baguettes to celebrate the fact you finally wore the beret, do you want to move on to the next Indiana case?
- [22:27]
A
Yes, but are we going through the Chunnel? Is my question.
- [22:30]
B
I don't know where this channel is.
- [22:31]
A
You can't keep doing that. You can't.
- [22:34]
B
Oh, my source for that was just an order from the court.
- [22:38]
A
Yeah, my source for this one is Fox59 because they live streamed what essentially was a two second hearing. But today, Wednesday, October 22, 2025, there was a hearing in the case of former NFL quarterback Mark Sanchez, who is of course accused of brutalizing Perry Toll, a truck driver here in Indianapolis who's 69 years old. I want to be very clear. We had, in our, in our, in our previous coverage, we emphasize, you know, we, we kept emphasizing Mr. Toll's age and I got slammed for it. We got some, we got some feedback. 69, that's not, that's, that's young. You know, I mean, like the end this and, and you know what? Like, we're not, we're not saying anybody's old. And it's a very, it's very youthful age, obviously. I remember, Kevin, when we were at a different hearing, someone was emphasizing like, you know, this man's in his early 50s, he's about to drop dead. And you were leaving like fuming, like what?
- [23:35]
B
Because I'll be my early 50s, I'll be my early 50s in about 20 years.
- [23:40]
A
Okay, yeah, it's on the horizon for you. So we, we apologize. But, but it's, it's, yeah, it's, but it was, it was a horrible attack. The, the aftermath, which was documented in photographs that were then published. And as a result of this alleged attack, Mr. Toll stabbed Mr. Sanchez, who then also had to go to the hospital. And that was a serious situation. So it's just a mess. This, this, this incident took place, by the way, on October 4, 2025. So since then, Mr. Sanchez has retained counsel, he's retained Jane's Voyles. Jim Voyles is a pretty well known criminal defense attorney in Indianapolis. He's sort of the, I think the most well known one in Indianapolis. He's the guy you're going to go to if you're a celebrity and you're in this situation.
- [24:28]
B
If you have a lot of money and you get into a lot of trouble here in Indianapolis. Everybody's going to tell you get Jim Voyles.
- [24:36]
A
His firm is Voyles, Vaana, Luke Meyer, Baldwin and Webb. And the lead counsel, the lead retained counsel on this is Jennifer Luke Meyer. So she's, her name's in there, she's one of the partners. So she's going to be doing this. And in addition to that, she, she's accompanied by Timothy Delaney. So they're the two attorneys along with Voyles, but, you know, they're going to be handling how this is going down. And then for the state, we have. Actually, there was a new attorney today on it. It was Jennifer Joy and Daniel Joseph. I'm going to butcher this man's last name. I do apologize. Daniel Sari. They're the two prosecutors for the Marion County Prosecutor's Office.
- [25:26]
B
When the prosecutor's office writes in to complain, that was Anya Kane who said that, not me.
- [25:33]
A
I'm so sorry, Daniel. I don't. I don't. I don't know what to do. But we. But we will move along. So they are there for the prosecutors. And today was just supposed to be a pretrial hearing. Essentially it was about having, you know, like a meeting to discuss dates and timing. So the charges that Sanchez is facing are battery resulting in serious bodily injury. That's a level five felony. And then misdemeanor battery resulting in bodily injury, misdemeanor unauthorized entry of a motor vehicle, misdemeanor public intoxication, where the defendant endangers the life of another. And so, you know, Sanchez was hospitalized. He got out from the hospital about 10 days ago, October 12th. And his, you know what, what's happening now is. I mean, like, I swear to God, like we come in to the live stream and the attorneys are like talking about Social Security numbers. I don't even. I don't. I don't know what. What exactly they were talking about. The judge came in.
- [26:38]
B
Honorable James B. Osmore, would you say prior to this? I don't think we expected much to happen.
- [26:44]
A
Oh, yeah, we were thinking about going down there too, right?
- [26:47]
B
Yeah. But I told you, Anya, nothing is going to happen. Nothing is going to happen. And also, it's worth noting that prior to this hearing, the defense team filed a motion saying that Mr. Sanchez was still recovering from his injuries and he asked to be excused from attending this hearing and that only his attorneys would be present.
- [27:10]
A
So he's not here.
- [27:11]
B
So that request was granted.
- [27:13]
A
So the honor. So, yeah, Kevin was like, we're not. We should not go to this. And I was like, oh, maybe we should. So I'm really glad we listened to Kevin in this situation. Cause it was very short.
- [27:22]
B
Also glad we listened to Kevin on the beret matter, but go ahead.
- [27:26]
A
So the judge was the Honorable James B. Osborne. He came in, they discussed setting a time for the pre trial conference. They wanted to make sure the dates were on the calendar. And Delaney and Joy were both introduced. They set the final pretrial conference for December 2nd at 1pm they affirmed that. They affirmed that the trial is due to start December 11, and the prosecution alerted the defense that the discovery will be out soon. And Delaney thanked the judge for allowing their client to be excused. And they noted that he's still recovering from his injuries. So that's it. That's what we have to look forward to in terms of what's going to happen here. As a note, as we've covered on the case on the, on the show previously, Sanchez also has a civil case against him from Toll, and that also involves the Fox Corporation. Because what Tole is essentially saying is, you know, they, Sanchez did something horrible to him and, you know, there can be a civil litigation around that as well as the criminal side of things. So we'll have to see what happens with this, but we'll keep paying attention to it. But I figured this was probably not worth its own episode. So we just wanted to update you in Chi Cheat. Now I think we're going to France.
- [28:47]
B
Let's get in the Chunnel.
- [28:49]
A
You disrespect people said, anya, you should cover some of these things because Kevin can go in the Chunnel. They were looking out for you. They wanted.
- [28:57]
B
Who said that?
- [28:58]
A
Somebody said that. One of the listeners. They're like, ah, you can go. And I, I'm not making this up. I'm g. I, I don't want to like out somebody on the show.
- [29:06]
B
Okay, okay. You don't have to.
- [29:07]
A
No, no, I'm not going to, but I'm going to. They, they said the Chunnel. No, this is not the right email. They said, also, do you want to. I'm. Spoiler alert. This is what I'm going to talk about. Also, do you want to talk about the heist at the Lou for this week's cheat sheet, you could use the Chunnel to get there. Smiley face. She was looking forward to you talking about the Chunnel.
- [29:30]
B
Well, there's also. You could take like a dirigible, couldn't you?
- [29:34]
A
Can you get that through the Chunnel? Oh, God. Okay. You do your French case first.
- [29:44]
B
This, in a way, is another update because it's a case we have covered previously and it's a case that has resulted in our in mocks being inundated with French language newsletters which neither one of us could read because I was trying to keep up with this trial. My sources for the latest developments are the BBC and Labonde, and the links will be provided. This is the case of Cedric Jubilar. This is a 38 year old man. He's married with kids. He's unemployed, mostly just hangs around the house smoking marijuana. His wife informs him that she's going to leave him and she's interested in this other gentleman. There is some sort of a fight at some point, and she disappears and her body is not recovered. And so he's now where he was on trial for her murder. And his defense team was even saying, well, we don't even know for sure she's dead because her body's never been found. But there are a lot of things about Mr. Jubilar and his stories which don't add up. For instance, he says on the night she was last seen, he walked all over the place doing an extensive search for her. But his phone's pedometer showed he didn't really do that much walking. So that's, that's interesting. There's also the fact that his wife's car on the street outside was in the opposite direction from way. The way she typically would park it. So that would suggest that someone else, like he had used it at some point. One of their children gave a statement about an argument between Mr. Jubilar and his wife. A broken pair of the wife's glasses were found in the home. And then there are the confessions. Or rather, some of these aren't confessions, they're incriminating statements. One of them, interestingly enough, Ms. Kane, comes from Mr. Jubilar's mother. Oh, she says that her son told him after he found out that his wife wanted a divorce. He said, I've had enough. I'm going to kill her and bury her, and they'll never find her.
- [32:35]
A
Oh, my God.
- [32:37]
B
And Jubilar's defense attorneys are like, well, these things don't matter. It's just you just, just because he's a bad character, just because he's a bad guy doesn't mean he's guilty of murder.
- [32:48]
A
I don't know. If you say like, I'm going to murder somebody and I don't. Yeah, that, that sounds pretty incriminating.
- [32:54]
B
The defense also suggested that some of the witnesses in the case who offered some of the incriminating evidence, well, they must have been coached by investigators.
- [33:06]
A
What, like his mom?
- [33:07]
B
I mean, this is something you often see in some of these cases where.
- [33:13]
A
If this is bad for my clients, let me write fan fiction about what really happened.
- [33:17]
B
Yeah. So I can't get past the evidence, so I have to posit a conspiracy.
- [33:24]
A
Yeah, that always is a sign that, you know, you're either relying On. Well, I mean, this is France. I'm not entirely sure how their legal system works, but in the United States, you do that because you either want to, you assume the jury's stupid, or you want to, you know, basically get conspiracy theorists on your jury and you do this pre trial or because you've just got nothing and that's all you can do.
- [33:46]
B
And I should mention, neighbors also heard screams. And an ex girlfriend of Mr. Jubilar's says that when she visited him in prison, he confessed to strangling her.
- [34:01]
A
Oh, my God.
- [34:02]
B
And another one of his former girlfriends says that at one point he told her that he had buried his wife's body in a burned down farm, but he said he was just joking. So, yeah, I think when I first heard about this case and we talked about it before, there wasn't as much information out there about it. I'm pretty comfortable saying this guy is obviously guilty 100%. And it's part of the epidemic that's not just an American epidemic. It's a worldwide epidemic of men killing and abusing the women in their life for one reason or another.
- [34:41]
A
Yes, that, that's a good, very good point. I think this is a real, real problem with this, across cultures, across countries, across everywhere. You know, it's something that I don't think, you know, I don't think it's like, we talk about it in True Crime, but we don't really talk about it. We're talking around it. We're always kind of portraying these things as, ooh, a murder. Myst could have done it. And then, you know, inevitably it is the male man in the household who, you know, did. Did something to his female partner. And it's sort of like, I don't know, like, like, I don't know how you fix that. But if men are being socialized in a way, you know, that's leading to violent outcomes, then something needs to be done. And obviously it's not like it's a problem for every man, but, like, I'd like to know what's going wrong with these men that are doing the harm and are being violent and are being domestically abusive and are actually killing women in their lives. And how can we, how can we intervene early on to prevent stuff like that from happening? Because it's like, I don't. It's just, it's such a pervasive issue. Women are not killing men at anywhere near the same rate. It's not at all equal. That doesn't mean that men can't be victims of abuse from women or other men, potentially. It's just that in terms of the murder rate, it's very clear that this is predominantly a one way street.
- [36:16]
B
Yes.
- [36:17]
A
And it's a street we need to shut down. You know, it makes me very angry, you know, because it's like, what are the men doing? Come on, what are we doing? And then people are gonna be like, not all men. And it's like, yes, but. But when we're talking about partners in a heterosexual relationship, one kills the other. You know which way that's probably going.
- [36:38]
B
You know? Yeah, you. You know which way?
- [36:40]
A
Not always. Honestly, the cases oftentimes that where the woman's killing the man, those get a lot of media attention because it's so unusual. And it's like, whoa, this is crazy. So I'm not. Not saying women are not capable of doing that too. And when they are, then they should also be maligned and punished for it. But it's just the, the scope of. The scope of femicide, the scope of men killing women is just. It's enormous. And it's just kind of shocking sometimes.
- [37:09]
B
Well, I, I feel okay, like, kidding you, but when you bring the dear listeners into it, I feel guilty. So I admit I know what the channel is, and I admit I've talked about the channel a time or two, and I admit I'd love to change our podcast to channel chat and just talk about the channel all the time because it's fascinating.
- [37:34]
A
I think you just love the word. You love the way it sounds.
- [37:37]
B
Yes. The listeners may have noticed that sometimes if a particular word or phrase strikes my fancy, I tend to use it a lot.
- [37:44]
A
Oh, yes. And that's also true to you off the podcast. Very cute.
- [37:51]
B
I'm very similar off the podcast than I am on the podcast. Unless I'm with a group of people, in which case I'm dead silent.
- [37:57]
A
Dead silent. Stony silent. Just. I'm doing all the talking. People are like, wow. And you just won't shut up. Yeah, if I don't talk, no one's gonna talk here.
- [38:07]
B
Not good with the groups.
- [38:09]
A
Yeah, I, I'm. I'm not really great with groups anyway, but I just fake it until I make it, you know, and then I. But I. I feel that I. I wish I had your confidence to just be very silent.
- [38:22]
B
So I apologize to the dear listeners. No, I'm sure my love of the channel.
- [38:29]
A
Yeah, I'm sure she understood that you're just trying to roast me. Because if you were listening to it for the first time it would be like this woman's, like, randomly trying to bring the tunnel into it. Why is that? So it was a good gag. I gotta tip the hat to you on that one.
- [38:47]
B
I'm filled.
- [38:48]
A
Tip the beret, perhaps.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah, I'm filled with regret and contrition.
- [38:54]
A
Well, we're gonna stay in France, but it's not for murder one, as we sort of alluded to earlier. My source for this is NBC News. So you may have seen this. On Sunday, October 19, 2025, there was a heist at the famous French museum, the Louvre. So this is that in the morning, too early for a heist, 9:30am and this crime went down in pretty much like a few minutes. I think about, like eight minutes. They got in and they got out, and they got out with a bunch of the French crown jewels. One they tried to get was the crown of Empress Eugenie, and that was recovered because they dropped it. So the museum since reopened, and what police are doing now is they're looking for these, what they believe are four thieves and eight pieces of this jewelry. I'm seeing some sources report it only took four minutes. I guess. I don't. It was quick. It was like a blitz attack.
- [40:04]
B
So I kind of like the opening of the 1987 film Beverly Hills Cop 2 with Brigitte Nelson stealing some jewels, if I remember correctly. It's suddenly become an episode of Mystery to Me, our other podcast.
- [40:22]
A
You don't need to mention that. We don't need people to go cringe at that. So, yeah, they. This all occurred the. In. In the, in the Louvre. It's the Apollo Room. That's still closed. And I'm gonna. I, I don't really know how to pronounce French words. And I, I'm sorry, I'm just kind of. I. I butchered the, The. The gentleman from Marion County's prosecutor's office name. Now I'm gonna butcher this one. It's a. She's a prosecutor from Paris named Laura Bacowe. And she said that the. The jewels that are missing have a value of 88 million euros, or 102 million US dollars. And it's also very historically important to the French people because it's like their history. So the big concern would be that the jewel thieves are going to essentially melt them down to sell them. Because you might be wondering, how on earth do you fence the French crown jewels? And I'm asking that, honestly. I mean, maybe you can. I don't know. It just seems like it would be really difficult to do that unless you're planning to sell them to a private buyer who's not going to be showing them off, who's going to, like some despot somewhere who's going to have them in his house. But, you know, the concern would be they melt them down. And what. What this prosecutor's saying is, hey, if you do that, they're not gonna be worth that much. Like, it's not a good idea to take them apart. It's gonna be kind of wrecking their value. They're not gonna be good for you anymore. So obviously, this is kind of a big deal. The director of the museum, Lawrence Descartes, offered to resign. The cultural minister said, don't. She, you know, said, it's been a terrible failure. And, you know, they're. They're going to look into upgrading things, doing security devices and more security. So, yeah, it's pretty shocking. You don't really think of, like, such a brazen heist taking place, I guess, but, like, it does happen. The art world is a pretty. The art and historical artifacts world can be a pretty crazy place, honestly. But no one died. I hope that France gets its jewels back, because that's not cool. I don't. I get mad with some of this stuff because it's like you're just depriving the public of. I don't. When people are like, oh, an art heist. Oh, that's so romantic. You're just basically depriving the public of a way to see its own history. And I think it's very antisocial and crummy, even though no one died.
- [43:03]
B
So you're taking a stand against crime.
- [43:06]
A
I don't like art crimes because, again, I think people tend to almost like. We're also used to, like, people, like, viciously torturing other people to death. So, yes, it's not as bad as that, obviously, but it's also like, I think sometimes people give the. The jewel thieves and the art thieves a bit of a pass because it's like, oh, it's kind of the. The gentleman rogue thief swashbuckler. And it's like, I just think it's kind of selfish.
- [43:31]
B
I asked. I asked this seriously. You're acting like you may be saying something controversial. Are there people out there defending art thieves?
- [43:38]
A
I just think in the popular culture there's this kind of image of the gentleman rogue, and he's usually doing art and jewelry theft. Now if you're stealing from, like, a robber baron and no one gets hurt in the 1920s when people are starving. Yeah, okay, maybe I'LL give you a bit of a pass in this situation, though. This was for the public, this is for everyone to come see these things. And, and I think that's where I, I get mad as a history nerd.
- [44:04]
B
Yeah, I always am concerned when priceless cultural artifacts are at risk. The most popular or the most well known example in this country, I imagine, would be the Garden and Museum heist from, I believe, 1990, when a number of very important paintings were stolen by persons unknown and they remain missing to this day. It's unclear if they even still exist.
- [44:27]
A
Yeah, there's been, there's been a number of art heists. I was actually looking at this the other day on. I just like doing some research. But there's been a number of our heists where they've never found anything, even in cases where they know who perpetrated it. And there's, you know, might have been burned, might have been destroyed, might have been lost, might have been thrown out or might be still hiding somewhere. So there's, there's a number of things like that. And of course, in Europe, you know, when the Nazis came through and, you know, did what they did, they were plundering the artworks and the historical artifacts of a lot of these different places and a lot of those, and then stealing works from, you know, Jewish art collectors and people like that. And so they, a lot of those remain unaccounted for. So it's, it's upsetting, but I hope they do find it. But yeah, today is October 22nd, so I don't know, maybe there'll be breaking news before Friday, but I don't, I don't know. We'll see. I think the longer this goes on, the more concern is that these will be lost. Right, so is that, is that everything?
- [45:28]
B
So now we're still on our book tour or whatever you want to call it, our promotional appearances, so there'd be some promotional announcements because the promotion is ongoing. Anya is asked to share a story with you at the end of it.
- [45:42]
A
I've asked to, I've asked to. Your just whole goal is to make me sound as ridiculous as possible these days. So we have a couple of events. I, I'm often like, I guess, I don't know, maybe some people don't listen to the end because people are always like, oh, do you have any events? It's like, yes, we've been having them and they're on our website and the website is murdersheetpodcast.com events. So people can just go and look at that. And that's an easy way to find all of them.
- [46:16]
B
Don't some people say that they find our voices so soothing, they use the podcast to fall asleep? So maybe they don't make it to the end.
- [46:24]
A
I. I don't know. I mean, it's just, it's. They're in every single show notes that we've ever.
- [46:30]
B
You know, I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna be very honest. I'm gonna be very, very blunt.
- [46:34]
A
Oh. What?
- [46:35]
B
In my life, I've listened to probably thousands, maybe tens of thousands of podcasts. Other than when we prepare our own show notes. I've never looked at the show notes of a podcast.
- [46:46]
A
I have, because sometimes I want to look. Where were their sources for this?
- [46:51]
B
Well, you're a better listener than I.
- [46:52]
A
I guess I am. I'm the superior podcast.
- [46:54]
B
Never look at the show notes. Does anybody other than you?
- [46:58]
A
I do so. Sunday, October 26, 2025, we're gonna be going to the Bloomington Book Festival in Bloomington, Indiana. We're going to a true crime panel there. It's at 1pm on that Sunday, just.
- [47:13]
B
A couple days away.
- [47:14]
A
You have. It's a ticketed event. You have to get your tickets. Click on the link on our events page and go get your tickets now.
- [47:21]
B
And Bloomington is like my. Where I went to college, my decadent college days, where I spend an awful lot of time alone reading comic books.
- [47:29]
A
Wow, that sounds really decadent. But I mean, that is decadent for you. So I will say this. You know, there's not really a designated time to do signings, I don't think here. But we'll be hanging around after our talk, and if you want get a book, get one of our books, bring it. And we'll just kind of be hanging around that building. So we'll meet you, we'll like form some sort of unofficial thing, and it'll be great. So come get your book signed after that.
- [47:56]
B
I had two girlfriends in college, but not simultaneously.
- [47:59]
A
What are you talking about?
- [48:01]
B
I'm reminiscing about my wild, carefree days as a college and law student in Bloomington, Indiana.
- [48:10]
A
Are you quite done?
- [48:14]
B
Read a lot of comic books, had two girlfriends at the same time. Sometimes the women didn't really like the comic book reading.
- [48:23]
A
Why?
- [48:24]
B
Also, I, as an undergraduate, really figured out ways to waste my education opportunities because I would pick classes that would teach me the least possible because I wanted to be just easy. So I took a class on the history of comic books. So that way I combined things, things like that. I think you when you were in college, you tried to take classes that might teach you something.
- [48:48]
A
No, I just took way too many history classes to the point where I almost didn't graduate. Not because I got bad grades, but because you have to do a non major requirement. And I didn't notice that until the last minute. And then I. And then it would. It all came down to pass fail for a writing class, which I, I passed easily. But I was very stressed about it for a while because I remember someone was like, you know, you have to like have like 75 hours of non major coursework. And I was like, oh cool, you stressed.
- [49:20]
B
That doesn't sound like you, me leaving.
- [49:22]
A
Something important to the last minute, not realizing it.
- [49:24]
B
What?
- [49:25]
A
Yeah, but I took two.
- [49:26]
B
I bet if later circumstances were such that we were to hear a story from your college days, I'm sure you'd be very relaxing story.
- [49:34]
A
Yeah. So then we have a Saturday, Nov. 1, 2025 appearance in Lafayette, Indiana. This. We're going to be signing books at the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana from 1:00pm to 4:00pm so if you're near Lafayette or you want to make a little road trip, come up, see us, we'll sign your book then.
- [49:53]
B
And I think we're doing an event on my birthday, right?
- [49:56]
A
Yes, yes. That's not on the website yet, but we are. So Tuesday, November 4th, we're doing a talk at the Curious Squirrel Bookshop in Zionsville, Indiana from 6 to 8 p.
- [50:09]
B
And that's not my birthday.
- [50:10]
A
That's not your birthday. And then the one you're talking about is not on the website yet, but it's December 6th, which is my birthday and it's a, it's a book festival.
- [50:18]
B
In Indianapolis, so should I mention like my shirt size?
- [50:22]
A
Sure, what is it?
- [50:23]
B
I'm just kidding.
- [50:25]
A
You want people to bring you shirts?
- [50:27]
B
No, it's a joke. Like, oh, Kevin's hinting he wants shirts for his birthday.
- [50:32]
A
You don't even wear most shirts. You don't even wear T shirts. You don't wear like sweaters. You wear button downs. That's it.
- [50:39]
B
Well, because if you find something, I'm.
- [50:41]
A
Trying to help you out here.
- [50:42]
B
If you find something that works, you stick with it.
- [50:44]
A
Do your uniform.
- [50:46]
B
Yeah, that's my trademark.
- [50:50]
A
Like a cartoon character. You just have like a closet full of the same clothes.
- [50:54]
B
That's how people recognize me when we're.
- [50:57]
A
Out and about your brand.
- [50:58]
B
If people recognize us, are they more likely to recognize me first than you?
- [51:02]
A
You're very distinctive because of my. I just look like anyone I look, I'm very undistinctive. But you've got that beard. Yes, you've got that beard. So. Yeah, so that's. And again, Bloomington. I don't know if this is a designated signing time, but I guess like, email us@murdersheetmail.com if you're there. We can find each other, but I think it would be easier if people just came to the event and then afterwards kind of tracked us down. We'll be hanging out around there.
- [51:28]
B
It'll all work out. You're very worried about it, but I think it'll work out well.
- [51:33]
A
I just don't want to disappoint people.
- [51:35]
B
So it'll all work out.
- [51:37]
A
Well, rarely, rarely does it.
- [51:40]
B
Bloomington is a magical place where dreams come true.
- [51:44]
A
There's a statue of Captain Janeway from Star Trek. So that's kind of cool. But. So, okay, so here's my story. We said we were going to tell stories on this. And I told Kevin, I said I'm kind of running out of stories because a lot of my stories are like, oh, that's, you know, haha. But that's kind of depressing. So I don't want to, I don't want to like, do like, stories that feel like a cry for help. So my story is from college, I guess the last time I had like a really robust social life. And we did this thing on the newspaper where we played a game called Assassins and Assassins, essentially the way we played it, I know there's different versions. You had a spoon and that spoon would have someone else's playing the game's name on it. And if you went and tapped them with the spoon, they were out. You assassinated them. And then they would give you the next spoon. So you'd be trying to eliminate the competition until you're essentially the last one left. And so when we played this the first I, I played this with a dorm once, I got eliminated immediately and I was pretty mad about that. So then we played again and this time I was ready. And this time I was. I don't know, I had a lot of anxiety issues. I still have a lot of anxiety issues, a lot of depression. But for some reason I decided this was very important. So I basically turned into like a nuisance and a nightmare for everyone else because I was like, I was like assassinating people like crazy. I remember like chasing a guy down in a hallway. And then I remember there were these rules where if you had a totem, you could be safe. So the, the editor in chief at the time would change the totem every day. Like, okay, if you're holding, like, a book from the Twilight series, you can't be killed. So I remember there was one situation where the editor in chief wanted to mess with everybody. So she said, if you have a press pass for the newspaper, you can't be killed. The only press passes were in the newspaper office. So I knew that's going to create a bottleneck and there's going to be a massacre down there. So I called one of our new news interns and said, oh, can you get one of those press passes? And I was her editor at the time. I was like, can you get one of our press passes and just leave them under a street lamp near the, near the library? And they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, it's a newspaper intern test. Go do it. And so then I was like, hiding in the woods. And she dropped it off, and I made sure no one was following her, and I got it. But where things got really crazy was once it started getting really narrowed down, I was, like, doing things like, oh, like, oh, meet me here. And it was all to, like, try to arrange other people killing each other. I became kind of a menace. And so then I basically became like, it turned into the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, the Sergio Leone film where I was Angel Eyes, I was the bad, and I was doing all this stuff. And so eventually, two valiant copy editors actually put aside their rivalry and teamed up to kill me. So what happened was I was leaving a class with some of my friends from the newspaper who had already been killed. And I'm walking in the hallway and I saw a flutter of movement through a door to my side. And I start to turn, and then, so one copy editor was there, and then the other one comes charging down the hallway with me. So I scream and I fall over and she kills me with the spoon. And then apparently the professor inside the classroom was like, what is going on out there? And my friends who were dead were like, oh, Anya just got killed. And I was kind of relieved when I did because I was like, I was taking this way too seriously. I get very, I get very hyper competitive over stupid stuff. So that's the lesson. But it was, it was, it was fun while it lasted, but I think, I think I got killed at the appropriate time. And I, I, I deserved it, ultimately. Have you ever played anything like that?
- [55:47]
B
No.
- [55:48]
A
Yeah, it was a big thing. Then the next year, I was the person running the assassin's game. So I wasn't, I was I. I didn't have to. I just was throwing out random totems all day to confuse everybody. So that was actually more fun for me.
- [56:02]
B
Wow.
- [56:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, I can be pretty competitive about stupid stuff. You know, like, me and my sisters would play, like, Mario Kart, and I'd be like, I sucked at it. And they'd be beating me because they were young, playing video games sooner than I did. So I'd just be like, you know, blue shell. I'd be like, oh. But I. I. You know, then with, like, actual sports, I was, you know, never that good. So I was never that competitive about that.
- [56:25]
B
You're the captain of your high school.
- [56:26]
A
Swimming team by default, because no one else wanted to do it and no one else knew how to swim. That's not really being competitive. That's just being the last woman standing.
- [56:37]
B
This, by the way, is a serious issue. Anya has. Anytime you say something nice to her, she'll respond by explaining why it doesn't matter.
- [56:45]
A
I'm just saying that's not really that impressive if you're the only one in your grade doing it.
- [56:50]
B
I'm impressed. You're a very impressive young lady.
- [56:53]
A
Oh, please. You're just trying to. You're trying to suck up to me after that tunnel crack.
- [57:00]
B
I think everybody loves and appreciates you even before you don the beret.
- [57:06]
A
What are you talking. Oh, my God.
- [57:07]
B
Anyways, and that beret, Anya, is everybody's favorite.
- [57:11]
A
The beret is everybody's favorite. That's so insane. Yeah. I learned the berets are. I don't look that bad in this one, so I was pretty happy with it. And that's our Quince beret. Shout out to Quince, our sponsor. I've been wearing their beret, and I've been loving it. Loving life. Loving all the compliments I get from my husband.
- [57:30]
B
So Anya learned a valuable lesson this week.
- [57:31]
A
I learned a valuable lesson this week. I really did. It was a very special episode, wasn't it?
- [57:36]
B
It was. So with that, let's bid you all a font adieu.
- [57:40]
A
All right, take care, guys.
- [57:41]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [58:01]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [58:25]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [58:36]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.