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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
If you're like me, you get a little bummed out after the holidays. But there's no reason not to treat yourself and your loved ones a little bit all year round. And the good news is that Murder Sheet listeners can embrace the finer things without breaking the bank. All thanks to our wonderful sponsor, Quince.
- [00:16]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:46]
Anya Cain
I love my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I got the black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable. I wear them all the time and I love the way I look in them. They're the perfect thing for a chilly winter's day.
- [01:00]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:23]
Anya Cain
Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.commsheet for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com/msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/msheet content warning. This episode includes discussion of violence, murder and crimes of sexual nature. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we are doing four cases. One is from Virginia, another is from New York, another is from Vermont, and there's an additional one in Colorado.
- [02:04]
Kevin Greenlee
And actually, two of them aren't really cases.
- [02:06]
Anya Cain
Well, stories, I guess.
- [02:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, well, we'll find out. We'll be doing four topics.
- [02:12]
Anya Cain
Four topics. Okay. There you go. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [02:18]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [02:21]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [02:23]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Libraries and legislatures.
- [02:50]
Anya Cain
It.
- [03:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I think we should start off by giving an update on a case we actually covered quite a while ago. And, well, first of all, our source for this is wkbw. Do you want to tell us a little bit about this?
- [03:34]
Anya Cain
Yeah. This is a case where we previously covered on April 19th of 2023. And special shout out to the person who also alerted us to this new development. And that of course is Mary Williams Deers. She's a wonderful peer within the true crime podcasting space. You can check out her podcast on Facebook. It's called Meddling in Mysteries, Murders and Missing on Mondays with Mary. She is wonderful. We'll include links to her show notes to her Facebook group in our show notes. And she also runs the WNY Missing and Unidentified People. Mary is a wonderful advocate and has done a lot of great work and again, thank you to her for letting us know about this development.
- [04:14]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And this is a case I've always found haunting. It's the case of Marquita Mull. That's M U L L. So she disappeared in the summer of 2021. And so a few months after that, a woman in Chautauqua County, New York is hiking along the trails there and she sees something in the woods that seems strange and it turns out actually to be a human skull. So she calls police and they're investigating. And in the course of their work on this discovery, they actually find that about 10 yards or so away from this skull is another person's body. And that other person is Markita Mull. And so this raises all sorts of interesting questions, one of which, are these two crimes related? And I don't think we have an answer to that yet, but we do have a development in Markita's case. Did you want to tell us a little bit about it?
- [05:28]
Anya Cain
Yes, there has been an arrest. I mean, this is a pretty major development actually. We have A suspect named 61 named Richard J. Fox. He's from Buffalo, New York and he's 61 years old. He is also a convicted and registered sex offender who was responsible for multiple crimes and violations against women and girls. Specifically, he was convicted of raping a 14 year old girl back in the 90s. In the early 2000s, he was convicted of attempted rape and aggravated sex abuse of an adult woman in Buffalo. And it's always disturbing to me in cases when there is someone who is brought out and perhaps looked at as a suspect or in fact convicted of said crime, when there's a history of that sexual abuse where someone keeps getting convicted and then for some reason keeps getting let back out in society to do the exact same thing to other people. So obviously this man is innocent until proven guilty. Just because of his history, that doesn't necessarily mean that he did it. But if the evidence against him is strong and if he is convicted, then it's incredibly disturbing that he was led out again and again and given all these second chances just to harm other people. And I really don't understand why someone like that would get so many second chances.
- [06:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it's very, very frustrating. And it's something that seems to happen over and over again, and it's something that causes a lot of innocent people to suffer needlessly. Perhaps in this case, including Markita herself. We don't have all the answers in this case. The investigation is ongoing. The District County, District Attorney of Erie County, Michael Keane, did say that this is something they take very, very seriously. He also indicated that this was a multi agency investigation. So I'm sure that once more information comes out about the efforts behind this, that some of our questions will be answered. And I'm certainly curious about the details of this investigation and how they settled on this person.
- [07:55]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. And again, follow Mary. She has covered this case extensively, knows a lot about it, and we'll try to check back into it when even more information comes out.
- [08:05]
Kevin Greenlee
She is your absolute best source for crime in that part of the country.
- [08:09]
Anya Cain
Definitely.
- [08:10]
Kevin Greenlee
She is incredible. And go back and listen to the episodes we did with her. She's.
- [08:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah, we'll, we'll include some links so you have easy access. So this next case is in. Not too far away in, In Vermont.
- [08:22]
Kevin Greenlee
The source for this was the VT digger. This is obviously one I picked. And it's, I don't know about you, and by you, I don't mean just Anya, I mean all of you. I find like, legal process things to be interesting, even when sometimes it's not really entirely clear to a layperson, like, why are you doing it this way? The result is still the same. Why do you have to jump through these extra hoops? It's just, it's, it's, it just fascinates me. Do you find that interesting?
- [08:59]
Anya Cain
I think it's interesting. Yeah. It's like almost a. It's like studying a different culture, a different language. You're like, whoa, they're doing things a little bit differently than you would do. And, and, and honestly, it's, it's kind of interesting what you're talking about specifically with, you know, almost jumping through hoops just to have the same result. But when you understand the legal world better, you kind of understand it where it's like, well, you're not just supposed to do it Any old way, you're supposed to do it the correct way. So it kind of becomes fascinating seeing how attorneys build a case and how a judge safeguards the case, both on the side of the defendant's rights and on the side of making it so it's not going to get overturned on appeal.
- [09:44]
Kevin Greenlee
So in this particular case, a man was charged with murder, Mr. Deafen Moffatt. He was arrested for his alleged role in the death of a woman named Jessica Hildenbrand. And that death took place all the way back in 2019. Ms. Hildebrandt was a woman who had actually been missing for months before her remains were ultimately discovered in a gravel pit. And here is where there is a bit of a problem. I say her remains were discovered there. It's not 100% clear they are her remains, because there was a preliminary identification saying, yes, these remains remains belonged to Ms. Hildebrandt, but there are further tests to absolutely 1,000% lock down that identification, including, presumably, DNA tests. And those tests were not done. And so the argument could be made that how can we try this person for murder and for murdering this person, these remains in particular, when we're not even certain 1000% that these remains belong to that person? What do you think?
- [11:06]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that seems like a pretty big problem.
- [11:09]
Kevin Greenlee
So the state went to the judge and said, well, what we should do is let's just delay the case. This delay would give us time to do these tests. And then once the tests come in and they confirm, yes, it's definitely her, then we can all move forward. And the judge said, no, you can't do that because you've already delayed this case a few times. It's not right for the defendant to have these charges, these murder charges hanging over his head indefinitely, especially when you guys had the time and the resources to get these identification tests made and you just didn't do it. That's on you. So.
- [12:01]
Anya Cain
Well, I mean, this is. Yeah, this is pretty problematic. And I'm actually, I've looked into this a little too, and this is. My source is wcax. Apparently, the victim in this case was actually in a relationship with. With this man who is accused. With Moffat who's accused of her murder. And she actually even wrote an email to the Windsor County State Attorney's office saying that she was very scared for when Moffat got out of jail, that he would come kill her. And then a week after he got out, she was gone. So, you know, yet another thing where.
- [12:39]
Kevin Greenlee
There might have been clearly a circumstantial case right by Just what you've said there, that tends to point towards guilt. But you still have this issue of are these remains hers?
- [12:50]
Anya Cain
Well, what's concerning too is that when there's a mistake like this, for whatever reason, I imagine this guy would get released, right? I mean, no, he's not. So he's gonna stay incarcerated.
- [13:03]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. This is what I'm saying. Is that the way they ended up doing this changed nothing.
- [13:09]
Anya Cain
Lawyers.
- [13:10]
Kevin Greenlee
So should I get back to lawyers?
- [13:14]
Anya Cain
See, I thought you were gonna be like, he got out.
- [13:17]
Kevin Greenlee
No, no, no, I stressed nothing changed. The judges said it's not. Basically, it's not right for him to be having these charges hanging over his head forever. You can't delay it. So what the state did was, well, we can't really prosecute this case without these test results. So we are going to ask for the charges to be dismissed without prejudice. What does that mean? That when you, when you dismiss a charge without prejudice, that basically means you have the right to refile it without violating double jeopardy. Yeah, there's no, no jury has been seated in this case. So if, if it's. Something is dismissed without prejudice, you can refile it. If something is dismissed with prejudice, you cannot refile it. So they said what, what we'll do is we will dismiss them with prejudice. We will dismiss them without prejudice. We'd do the tests. If the tests come back in as we expect them to and offer a confirmation of this identification, we will go ahead and refile the murder charges. And so your question was, what happens to him in the meantime?
- [14:22]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Why does he then still remain in jail?
- [14:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, he was convicted on federal drug and firearm charges last May.
- [14:30]
Anya Cain
They got him.
- [14:31]
Kevin Greenlee
So he's in jail awaiting sentencing. He's in custody.
- [14:35]
Anya Cain
Okay, well then at least there's no public safety threat then.
- [14:38]
Kevin Greenlee
But again, it's like if they had delayed it, the results would be the same. He would still be in custody. And presumably if the test came back in and it turned out not to be hurt, then perhaps the charges would be dismissed. Yes, they don't delay it, so they dismiss the charges with the option to refile. But he remains in custody. And in a way, the possibility still seems. Still hangs over his head. So do you think this is just silly lawyer games or do you think it makes sense?
- [15:08]
Anya Cain
I don't want to dismiss it as silly lawyer games. I mean, I, I think it's easy for lay people to look at something like this and be like, this is just like kind of a stupid musical chairs formality, but at the same Time. Like, I think we want our legal system to dot its eyes and cross its T's, so to speak. So you don't get it. I mean, the nightmare situation is, you know, years in, they finally look at the results and say, whoa, wait, that isn't her. That, you know, some, someone else was murdered and this was like, you know, he was wrongfully convicted of something totally he was unrelated to. So like that's, that's what you don't want. And I think when you have people cutting corners, you, you run that more of a risk of that. I think in my opinion, maybe this is just my own feeling, but I don't think a lot of people in the legal system are perfect. But I also don't think a lot of people in the legal system like, want to convict innocent people and ruin lives. And I do think, though, that sort of thing becomes more likely when you're just, you know, kind of rushing along or kind of just assume, oh, well, no, it's probably your body, let's just move on. You know, that's not fair to anybody. So I don't know, I, I respect it on some level, even though it kind of looks ridiculous from the outside.
- [16:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I mean, I would, I would argue, yeah, it does look ridiculous to it on the outside. But there is an important principle at stake. You really don't want to have a situation where we allow in this country for people to have charges filed against them before the case is ready and they have to deal with this indefinitely for extended periods of time.
- [16:47]
Anya Cain
And, and, and on an assumption, like maybe the assumption is correct that this woman who went missing around the same time and was found in this place, you know, in the preliminary test, whatever, I'm, I'm sure it probably is her. But at the same time, you have to know that. And frankly, like, you know, if you have, if you have situations where prosecutor's office is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak, and kind of rushing along too quickly, I would hope that that would, you know, be a wake up call of like, let's make sure we're really ready to go. But at the same time, you have, you know, people who are public servants who are probably have a, a lot on their plates and I can understand where, you know, things can kind of slip through the cracks, but I think it's the right thing to do to make sure that, that especially, I mean, we're, this is a murder case, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously pretty severe, pretty important. I wish I could automate all my New Year's resolutions so I wouldn't have to muster the willpower to go on a walk for exercise. Or if I could automatically kick myself off my phone and launch a Margaret Millar book into my hands instead, that would be awesome. Somewhat scary, but super helpful.
- [17:55]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [18:12]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [18:55]
Anya Cain
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- [20:00]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [21:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, maybe it would be a much more complicated thing for most people if the guy would have been released.
- [21:31]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think that would have been a scandal. They would have gotten a lot of flack for that. Because then it's like, even if the mistake was just a human error and, like, wasn't anyone being terrible, like, it's like, now the burden is on the community. Immunity to possibly be endangered by. By that mistake. That's. I think, you know, you do see, things like that do happen rarely, I'm sure. But, like, I think that's when you see, like, oh, my gosh, what is going on.
- [22:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. It's also a reminder of the heavy burden that prosecutors carry because there are so many little details for them to have to be aware of and have to act upon. And if they make a mistake or forget to do something, then that can cause really significant issues down the road. The judge in this case wrote in his decision that this wasn't a case of the state acting in bad faith. They weren't deliberately trying to delay this test so they could trick him or anything like that. It was just what he called a regrettable oversight.
- [22:39]
Anya Cain
Yeah, well, yeah. And you definitely don't want people manipulating the system by, like, oops, we didn't do it. I guess we're just gonna, like, you don't want that either. But it sounds like in this case, it wasn't that. So.
- [22:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. And it's important to remember that just as a principle, the prosecution should not file charges until such time as they are ready to act upon them and press them in court.
- [23:02]
Anya Cain
That is one of my. You just touched upon one of my least favorite things in true crime. One of my least favorite things. Oh, yeah. Well, here we go.
- [23:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Time for an Anya rant. I'll put my feet up.
- [23:14]
Anya Cain
You know you love my rants. No, it's. It's not even a rant. It's just more of like an I. I understand. When I was listening to True Crime podcast, when I was just a listener, so many times I would be listening to someone and they'd be like, these prosecutors don't want to file charges because they only care about their winning record. Or, these prosecutors are scared to take on this case because it might not be good. And it's like, I remember I would sort of uncritically listen to that at the time and be like, wow, that's awful. And now I'm like, no, that's not. You don't just, like, spin the wheel of roulette and say, whatever, this case stinks. But, like, let's do it, because that's pretty. I mean, like, that's misconduct.
- [23:57]
Kevin Greenlee
You don't want a prosecutor to file charges on a whim. You want a prosecutor to only file charges when he believes he or she believes he has a strong case that would result in a conviction. Because you don't want innocent people to have to go through the burden of a trial.
- [24:19]
Anya Cain
Yeah. It's not a casual decision. And when people in True Crime are, like, doing anything to try to pressure a prosecutor either way, I think that is really misguided and inappropriate. And I can. I mean, listen, there's a difference between that and saying, hey, I think police investigators should dedicate more resources to this case, or the media needs to pay more attention and pressure, you know, more resources into the case. That's fine. That's commendable. But essentially doing it like, you know, file charges. File charge. No, like that. It's got.
- [24:55]
Kevin Greenlee
That's how you get wrongful conviction. Yes. We are all concerned about wrongful convictions. And the way you get them is when prosecutors don't. When prosecutors file cases, they are not a thousand percent on cases in the borderline.
- [25:09]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And I just, I just think, I think we, I see true crime people almost like denigrating prosecutors who don't file charges sometimes as like career minded or whatnot. And it's like, you know, that that is what could be the difference between not having something implode in a really bad way.
- [25:28]
Kevin Greenlee
So yeah, I think also we're aware of cases out there where prosecutors have perhaps filed prematurely or too early and then the person they are prosecuting has been acquitted and that, that's it. That's the end of the story. Because of double jeopardy.
- [25:43]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it's, it's, it's better to, I mean, it's, I mean, listen, it's, it's easy for me to say that it's frustrating and horrifying if a family member or an advocate really feels like something is, is, is up and wants action and wants movement. And I so understand that. But it doesn't mean that that's. At a certain point, you know, the legal system is not something, it's not a casino. It's not something to be kind of like abused or like just kick it around until it starts working. It's like, you know, it's got a case is, is ready, it's a good case or, or it's not. And I, I kind of, I don't know, I feel like people should be more understanding of that.
- [26:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Shall we move on?
- [26:23]
Anya Cain
Yes, sir.
- [26:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Let's go to Virginia and my source for this was Fox News.
- [26:29]
Anya Cain
I love Virginia. Sorry.
- [26:31]
Kevin Greenlee
Anyway, you have a history with Virginia.
- [26:33]
Anya Cain
I went to school there. It's a beautiful state.
- [26:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And this isn't a specific case, but it was coverage, coverage of the fact that Virginia is considering passing laws which would enable people who deal with fentanyl, who sell fentanyl to be charged with murder if that dealing results in death. And this is interesting because there are such laws here in the state of Indiana.
- [27:05]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [27:05]
Kevin Greenlee
And we've covered them.
- [27:06]
Anya Cain
We interviewed two wonderful attorneys and actually quite a number of people for our series the Fentanyl Files where we're talking about.
- [27:14]
Kevin Greenlee
And we're going to come back and do more fentanyl.
- [27:16]
Anya Cain
We're definitely going to, we're going to do more fentanyl cases for sure with the Fentanyl Files. We're kind of still kind of ramping up post deli trial with all of our coverage plans, but that is something we plan to resume. And we had the fortune of speaking with Delaware County Deputy prosecutor Zach Craig. Zach Craig, wonderful, wonderful prosecutor who I remember just, that was like the most heartbreaking interview. He cares so much about these victims of fentanyl overdoses. We talked to him on the one hand, and then our wonderful friend Tim Sled, who is the chief public defender in Lawrence County, Indiana, he came from a different perspective as someone who's defended people from these charges. And they both were so insightful. You should check out those episodes. We'll link to them.
- [28:03]
Kevin Greenlee
Both of them very intelligent, very articulate. Both of them care deeply, I think it's fair to say, about people whose lives have been affected by fentanyl. They just have different perspectives on how these laws work and how effective they are in dealing with the problem.
- [28:21]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think what Mr. Craig was saying was essentially this is something where there needs to be accountability. If you are giving someone a poison, even if you're selling it to them, that will, that kills them. And at this point, I think people are pretty, hopefully well aware that fentanyl is, is potentially very deadly. That person needs to be held accountable, and perhaps that person needs to be put away for a time where they're not able to do this to other people. What Mr. Sled's contention is is that the war on drugs in the United States is a, is a failed paradigm. And we need to, instead of fighting the low level dealers who may have addiction issues themselves, we need to take the fight to higher ups, people who are really making money off of this, all the way down to cartels in Mexico. And so, you know, it's, it's kind of like, how do we deal with this? And so these laws can be somewhat controversial for people who've lost somebody to fentanyl overdoses and, and fentanyl deaths. I think families want to see accountability for the, for to a large degree, they want, like, this person sold this to my son, my daughter, they died. I want accountability.
- [29:35]
Kevin Greenlee
On the other hand, I think if I live in the city where the streets are being flooded with fentanyl, I would want my prosecutors to have tools to help get the people who are putting fentanyl out there, get them off the streets.
- [29:50]
Anya Cain
Yes.
- [29:51]
Kevin Greenlee
And this is one such tool.
- [29:52]
Anya Cain
But at the same time, I also, at some level, if we are just sort of fighting these small fights and not, not, you know, taking it to maybe the source, taking it to a, excuse me, like a, a higher level. Maybe we're just kind of trying to deal with the symptoms rather than cure the disease. And I, maybe, maybe you can do both. Maybe you can do both. It's. I don't know. I, I also think that Perhaps beyond what we're talking about here, having, having robust social services and having easy mental health and medical treatment for people, things like that can also be good to help deal with, maybe help catch people before they even fall into that. Because a lot of this stuff is people medicating themselves, whether that's for physical pain or mental anguish. And if you can kind of say, no, don't wreck your life with, you know, hard drugs and fentanyl, go get this, you know, easy to obtain care, well, then I guess we, that would be a lovely fantasy land. But that's not the world we live in, unfortunately. It's a nightmare out here, but it would be, it would be good. I don't know. Taking care of people is important and can help, can help people falling into, avoid falling into crime and avoid falling into these kind of addiction spirals. But it's complicated. I, I'm not really coming down either way. I just, I'm interested in what people have to say about it and it's interesting. So Virginia's taking this step. Are they doing anything unique with this or is it just.
- [31:38]
Kevin Greenlee
They're just trying to figure out an approach. I, I, I think a lot of people look out there and they see all the suffering and death caused by this awful, awful scourge and they want us figure out something and they're trying to figure out something, and this is something they're looking at. And I wanted to highlight this because when I see stories about legislatures or whatever talking about issues we've covered on the show, I think it's worth talking about and it's something they're talking about in Virginia. And I would imagine that over the course of the next few years, a lot of other state legislatures might be weighing things like this.
- [32:19]
Anya Cain
I also would just say too, just from an educational perspective, if you have young people in your life, young people experiment with drugs, okay? I mean, that happens. A lot of people do that and, and they, they're fine and they don't. Nothing happens. But with fentanyl, like, you can get the wrong pill and just die. There's no do over. You don't even like it. It's, it's dangerous in that way where people can take it. Maybe they think it's something else or, you know, I, I just have those conversations with the, again, the kids, the younger people in your life, like it's not worth dying over. It's not like we're well beyond the, the realm of like, you might get addicted. We're into the, like, you will just Straight up die mode. And I think that's important for, you know, because, again, like, young people are so used to being preached out about this stuff, and you'll ruin your life and whatever, but it's like, this is, like, very much more of, like, a binary at this point with fentanyl. So have those conversations.
- [33:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Let's move on to a rare, unmitigated happy story.
- [33:27]
Anya Cain
Whoa. On the murder sheet. On the cheat sheet.
- [33:30]
Kevin Greenlee
And I found this. I think that'll shock everybody. It's a story with nothing really sad or upsetting at all.
- [33:39]
Anya Cain
Then does it belong here?
- [33:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Should I just forget it? Should we just skip to the ad?
- [33:43]
Anya Cain
Let's just get depressed.
- [33:45]
Kevin Greenlee
The ad always depresses people.
- [33:47]
Anya Cain
Yeah, yeah, the ad. The morale will be boosted and then completely obliterated in a matter of moments. So don't worry. Sit tight.
- [33:56]
Kevin Greenlee
This is a story out of Colorado. And my. My source for this was. I'll admit I was not previously familiar with this source. It's called Chalk Beat, and it is a story about a woman named Toby Ertelt. I apologize if I mispronounce that name, as I almost certainly am. She is a school librarian. She actually won the 2024 distinction in school Library Services Award from the Colorado association of Libraries. And, of course, we all love librarians.
- [34:35]
Anya Cain
I adore librarians. I remember there was one librarian I absolutely loved growing up, and she really helped me really love reading. And I just. Librarians are amazing. So, yeah, we. We love libraries. Librarians. We record many podcast episodes in different. In different libraries as we speak.
- [34:56]
Kevin Greenlee
We are planning tomorrow to record.
- [35:01]
Anya Cain
No, we're not gonna do it. But. But, I mean, we might if some bad things happen.
- [35:05]
Kevin Greenlee
We're recording on Monday in a library.
- [35:07]
Anya Cain
We're definitely recording on Monday.
- [35:08]
Kevin Greenlee
We're recording on Tuesday in a library.
- [35:11]
Anya Cain
Yes. Wait, where? We got a lot of interviews right now.
- [35:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, we're talking more about that in a nightmare.
- [35:18]
Anya Cain
It's a nightmare.
- [35:19]
Kevin Greenlee
So why. Why are we talking about a Colorado librarian? I'm going to actually read an excerpt from this interview she gave to the good people at Chalk Beat. They asked her, tell us about a favorite lesson to teach, and where did the idea come from? And she replied, my favorite lesson is the murder mystery research project. It focuses on research skills, which is hard to teach because it can be a dry subject for middle schoolers. We introduce research skills in 6th grade and dive deeper in 7th grade. We cover four main areas of information, including whether it's from a credible and trustworthy authority, whether it contains various types of Bias, what the purpose of the content is and the date it was published. Then we stage a murder in the library with three sources of the crime scene, eyewitness statements and suspect statements. The students use their research skills to investigate the crime. In the end, they make accusations and give their evidence. The students are always so engaged. It helps bring home the importance of authority, bias, content and date and helps them understand the importance of evaluating what they read. Listen to, see and watch. Anya, your comments.
- [36:37]
Anya Cain
Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I think that is amazing and adorable. Sounds like she's definitely a true crime fan and is applying that interest in order to help kids develop critical thinking skills and research skills that they absolutely need. That is awesome.
- [36:53]
Kevin Greenlee
And I think a lot of us should go take this class.
- [36:56]
Anya Cain
I want to take it. I would have been so all over this in middle school. I would have totally. Oh, man.
- [37:01]
Kevin Greenlee
These are things that we all need to be aware of. We need to know how to research. We need to know how to evaluate. Evaluate the positions people are arguing from and whether or not they're coming from a place of bias.
- [37:12]
Anya Cain
Yeah. This is legitimately something everyone could use, including us, including adults, including. It's a good thing to kind of assess. How am I reading things? How am I engaging with something? How am I dealing with bias? Is this credible or not? Should I discard it or not?
- [37:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And it is. What a great way to learn about research and things like that than by something like this. Which is fun.
- [37:36]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Because like, when you're just forcing kids like, this is really super dry stuff, they're probably going to be like, whatever. But if it's like a fun murder mystery, I mean, geez, that doesn't really get more interesting than that. It's fun, it's cute. I love it. So I think this is really. I think this is a nice story and I appreciate you finding it.
- [37:53]
Kevin Greenlee
And I don't know if I mentioned this on the show. I've certainly mentioned it to you privately. But learning about skills like this through fun interests is how I think I really learned about critical thinking. Because when I was a child, I was very interested not only in things like the JFK assassination, but I was interested also in things like Bigfoot and UFOs and researching those topics and learning the details behind those things. It really helped me learn critical thinking and how to evaluate and come to conclusions.
- [38:29]
Anya Cain
Because it's such an important skill. Because you can be smart as a whip and have terrible critical thinking skills and that will strip you up every time. Because It's a. It's a skill, and it's a. It's kind of almost a muscle you need to work out a lot or. Or it gets. It atrophies. So I. I would say that this is so cool. I. I just think it's. I think it's nice. And I also, you know, frankly, a lot of people within True crime could use this kind of class, you know.
- [38:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Because I think a rare happy story here on the murder sheet.
- [38:59]
Anya Cain
Love that.
- [39:00]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, this woman is a librarian. Librarians work with books. Speaking of books.
- [39:05]
Anya Cain
Oh, gosh, what a transition. What a masterful move right there. So we, as you probably may have heard, I don't know, maybe you didn't. We are working on a book ourselves. It's called Shadow of the Bridge. It's about the Delphi murders. And we're actually writing it now. It's. It's a process.
- [39:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Deadline, a lot sooner than we thought.
- [39:26]
Anya Cain
It's gonna be fine. But we're.
- [39:29]
Kevin Greenlee
We're doing lots of interviews for it.
- [39:30]
Anya Cain
We're doing so many interviews. This book is going to be.
- [39:33]
Kevin Greenlee
And some of them, not all of them, are on the podcast.
- [39:35]
Anya Cain
We hope this to be very comprehensive.
- [39:36]
Kevin Greenlee
As a book about the deli case.
- [39:38]
Anya Cain
Yes. And we hope it to be a definitive work on the deli case. The Delphi case is one of those cases where it can be difficult because it's so sprawling. There's so many years of, like, you feel like almost an archeologist, like, excavating Troy, like, oh, here's the first, City of Troy. And the second, like, you're like, just stuff upon stuff. And what we're trying to do with the book is like, tell the story, tell the truth, tell the comprehensive version of what happened.
- [40:04]
Kevin Greenlee
And as Ms. Ertelt is well aware, a number of sources are biased or come from a place of bias where they are arguing a particular point of view without necessarily telling their audience that they're doing. So I think, you know, some of the people I'm referring to there. And so you really have to work hard to get to the actual truth and the full details.
- [40:23]
Anya Cain
And it can be difficult to go back and listen to, like, even credible things or credible news outlets or credible sources, like, go back and listen to everything or watch everything. So hopefully this will be kind of a. A work that kind of stands the test of time on this. And we are.
- [40:37]
Kevin Greenlee
You can pre order it on Amazon.
- [40:38]
Anya Cain
Yeah, you can pre order it on Amazon. I believe you can also pre order it on bookshop.com we will be including links to that in our show notes. But one thing that we will note is that pre orders really, really help us out and are very important. We have been told I don't understand publishing, so I don't really know why, but pre order we would so appreciate it. It would mean a lot to us. And we're gonn for everyone who pre ordered soon. Once I, once I can, you know.
- [41:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Once we finish the book, once we.
- [41:07]
Anya Cain
Once we actually finish it and have some time to ourselves. But we're going to be doing some. There's going to be some fun treats. So.
- [41:14]
Kevin Greenlee
For the pre order people.
- [41:15]
Anya Cain
For the pre order people, the elites, the pre orders. And I think you'll like it and I think it'll be really fun. But anyway, yeah, tell your friends. If you have friends who also really enjoy books on crime, this is a. This could be a cool thing, cool gift for them. Or they could buy it themselves and, and learn all about an interesting and very tragic case.
- [41:35]
Kevin Greenlee
So that would be a way to spend money and not get something for a while. What if you wanted to spend money and get something like right away?
- [41:44]
Anya Cain
Well, then you only have to turn to murdersheetshop.com and purchase one of our beautiful illustrious shirts. The shirts that are the mark of a true crime aficionado who everyone can respect and admire. They have the murder sheep people written on them. That's because if you get one, you're a murder sheep person as far as we're concerned. And, and you can show everyone and have the proof of that. And they're beautiful with colors of blue and red and other colors, kind of teal situation going on. They're. They're quite lovely, quite gorgeous.
- [42:22]
Kevin Greenlee
And the thing is, you can certainly wear them yourself. You can put them on your pets. You can put them on your Christmas tree. You know, here in Indiana, we've had a big snowstorm. I've noticed there's a lot of unclothed snowmen. Could I, Anya, could I put a murder sheet person's T shirt on a snowman?
- [42:38]
Anya Cain
Yeah, you could definitely do that. Is this because we watched Hot Frosty? Is that where this came from?
- [42:53]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm not seeing you come up with any new approaches.
- [42:56]
Anya Cain
No, I, I like it. I like it. Would the snowmen come to life and be like a murder sheet fan?
- [43:02]
Kevin Greenlee
You see, one thing I try to do is I don't make promises that are too extravagant. You seem to be promising that if they buy one of these shirts and put it on a snowman, it will come alive and Listen to the podcast with them.
- [43:13]
Anya Cain
I'm asking.
- [43:14]
Kevin Greenlee
That won't happen.
- [43:15]
Anya Cain
I'm asking.
- [43:15]
Kevin Greenlee
That's not gonna happen. Anya. I'm not saying you're lying to the people saying.
- [43:19]
Anya Cain
I'm asking a question of the legal expert, the so called legal expert on the show. But maybe you'd have some insights. But I guess not.
- [43:26]
Kevin Greenlee
No, I was just saying you can put it on a snowman and you can enjoy. Oh, you say, oh, look, that looks cute. I'm not saying it's going to bring the snowman to life.
- [43:35]
Anya Cain
Wouldn't that be cool though? Just trying to sprinkle some imagination into these ads. I'm sorry?
- [43:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I don't like to lie to the people.
- [43:44]
Anya Cain
I think the people are delighted by a whimsical image of a snowman come to life who loves the murder sheet. Sorry, sorry, it's too whimsical for you. For the likes of you.
- [43:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Do you have anything more to say?
- [43:57]
Anya Cain
Well, are there other elements of the ad that we normally incorporate into this that I'm forgetting? We said the URL. Wait, hang on. We said the URL. There's shirts.
- [44:05]
Kevin Greenlee
There's usually a bad joke. We usually fight.
- [44:09]
Anya Cain
Fight. We fought.
- [44:10]
Kevin Greenlee
I yell at you to push the button. Is that it?
- [44:15]
Anya Cain
I think so. This one felt really short. Are we losing our touch? We're getting more succinct? Or is it a mercy for the listeners?
- [44:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Let me know this. I know that the supply of T shirts is not what it used to be. So if you're sitting there in your easy chair saying, well, I'll just wait and order a T shirt at my leisure, well, you may be out of luck.
- [44:39]
Anya Cain
Uh huh. Got to get on it.
- [44:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Get out of your easy chair, go to your electronic device, access the information superhighway.
- [44:52]
Anya Cain
People. You're telling people how to use their computers though.
- [44:58]
Kevin Greenlee
And go to the address Anya mentioned.
- [45:01]
Anya Cain
Yes. Murder sheet shop, murdersheetshop.com. i keep almost saying the wrong thing and it's pan. I mean, I don't know what's going on, but yeah, no, it's Murder Sheet Shop.
- [45:13]
Kevin Greenlee
We should have come up with a better name.
- [45:15]
Anya Cain
What was what? What?
- [45:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Sheet shop?
- [45:18]
Anya Cain
What? I don't. What are you gonna. What are you gonna call it? What do you want from us?
- [45:28]
Kevin Greenlee
I tried to end this. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [45:51]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [46:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [46:26]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [46:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.
- [47:00]
Anya Cain
Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.
- [47:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?
- [47:50]
Anya Cain
Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15 off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the Murder Sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really.
- [48:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Helps us out before we wrap up this episode. Can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?
- [48:27]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.
- [48:35]
Kevin Greenlee
We love our sponsors.
- [48:36]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.
- [48:45]
Kevin Greenlee
That can seem daunting.
- [48:46]
Anya Cain
It. It is daunting. I, I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.commsheet can we talk a.
- [49:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?
- [50:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket, it looks super cool.
- [50:40]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [50:43]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [50:44]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [50:46]
Anya Cain
Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [51:21]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [51:22]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean you're filthy.
- [51:26]
Kevin Greenlee
You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.
- [51:30]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
- [51:31]
Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [51:31]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you. But I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [51:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Calm.
- [51:43]
Anya Cain
There you go. So you can go to quince com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince com msheet that's Q U I N C E com, MSH E E T.