The Cheat Sheet: Lithium and Liars

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Lithium and Liars"

Episode Details:

• Title: The Cheat Sheet: Lithium and Liars
• Release Date: February 28, 2025
• Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into a series of intricate murder cases spanning various states, including Maryland, California, Oklahoma, and Hawaii. The discussion is framed around themes of legal ethics, wrongful convictions, and the complexities of the criminal justice system. The episode aims to provide deep insights into both high-profile and less-publicized cases, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis backed by journalistic research and legal expertise.

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1. The Adnan Syed Case: A Continued Controversy [03:45 – 15:15]

Background: Áine Cain initiates the conversation with the infamous case of Adnan Syed, who was convicted in the 1999 murder of Hae Min Lee in Maryland. This case gained nationwide attention through the Serial podcast, which significantly influenced the true crime podcasting landscape.

Key Discussions:

• Impact of Serial:

  • Áine reflects on how Serial transformed true crime podcasting, raising both its profile and its ethical dilemmas. She states, “Serial kind of gave us a lot of the original sin of true crime podcasting” ([07:15]).

• Legal Developments:

  • In September 2022, Marilyn Mosby, then Baltimore City State’s Attorney, requested the overturning of Syed's conviction. However, faced with backlash from Syed’s family, the conviction was reinstated, and a Maryland Supreme Court affirmed this decision in August 2024.
  • Most recently, in December 2024, Syed's legal team filed for a sentence reduction under Maryland's Juvenile Restoration Act, aiming to balance rehabilitation with public safety.

• Hosts’ Perspectives:

  • Áine expresses skepticism about Mosby's motives, suggesting political maneuvering: “I think throwing this kind of high profile case back into the headlines was a very cynical political move” ([05:30]).
  • Kevin concurs, emphasizing the ethical responsibilities of prosecutors: “*The family of the victim deserves more than that. These are real people, real lives left behind” ([12:36]).

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain: “I think this guy is guilty as charged” ([08:45]).
• Kevin Greenlee: “I applaud him for doing the ethical and responsible thing” ([13:03]).

Insights: The hosts critically evaluate the handling of Syed's case, highlighting the tension between legal proceedings and public opinion. They underscore the importance of fair trials, especially in high-stakes cases involving potential wrongful convictions.

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2. The California Judge Jeffrey Ferguson Case: A Personal Tragedy [15:15 – 25:30]

Case Overview: Kevin Greenlee introduces the unsettling case of Judge Jeffrey Ferguson from California, who fatally shot his wife after a heated argument. The incident raises questions about mental health, accountability, and the credibility of individuals within the legal system.

Key Discussions:

• Incident Details:

  • During a dispute over financial support for a child, Ferguson reportedly made a "gun symbol" gesture towards his wife before shooting her. He later claimed it was an accidental discharge.

• Behavioral Analysis:

  • Áine critiques Ferguson's explanations, expressing doubt over his depiction of the gesture as one of surrender: “Why would a gun be an act of aggression?” ([19:11]).

• Legal Concerns:

  • Ferguson's conduct post-incident, including violating bail conditions by consuming alcohol, further undermines his credibility.
  • The hosts discuss the psychological aspects, pondering the impact of alcoholism on his actions and honesty.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain: “No. What person in their right mind would?” ([18:51]).
• Kevin Greenlee: “It does seem to be a mess” ([22:37]).

Insights: The discussion highlights the complexities when individuals in positions of authority are involved in violent crimes. The hosts explore how personal shortcomings and contradictory behaviors can affect legal outcomes and public trust.

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3. The Glossip Case: Supreme Court Ruling and Legal Implications [25:30 – 45:59]

Case Overview: The Glossip case centers on Justin Sneed, who was convicted of murdering Barry Van Treese. The Supreme Court recently ruled on this case, focusing on issues of prosecutorial misconduct and the reliability of witness testimonies.

Key Discussions:

• Case Background:

  • Justin Sneed allegedly beat Barry Van Treese with a baseball bat under the solicitation of Richard Glossip. Sneed has maintained his innocence, leading to ongoing legal battles.

• Legal Arguments:

  • Prosecutorial Conduct:

    • The central issue revolves around whether the prosecutor knowingly allowed false testimony by Sneed, particularly regarding his use of lithium.
    • Áine questions the materiality and intent behind prosecutorial notes mentioning “lithium” and “Dr. Trumpet,” debating if it indicates intentional deception ([31:13]).

  • Supreme Court’s Ruling:

    • The majority opinion favored granting a new trial based on potential prosecutorial misconduct.
    • A concurring opinion suggested a more thorough fact-finding process instead of an outright new trial.

• Hosts’ Perspectives:

  • Both Áine and Kevin express skepticism about the ambiguities in the prosecution's notes and advocate for a more detailed investigation before determining culpability.
  • They emphasize the importance of fair trials, especially in death penalty cases, where the stakes are exceedingly high.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee: “What matters here is whether or not he got a fair trial” ([28:27]).
• Áine Cain: “That's just my opinion. I think throwing this kind of high profile case back into the headlines was a very cynical political move” ([05:30]).

Insights: The hosts dissect the nuances of legal ethics, particularly focusing on the responsibilities of prosecutors to ensure honesty and transparency. They highlight how minor discrepancies can have significant implications in high-stakes cases, advocating for diligent judicial processes.

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4. The Wrongful Conviction of Gordon Cordero: Overcoming Legal Injustice [46:03 – 65:31]

Case Overview: Áine Cain presents the case of Gordon Cordero from Hawaii, who was exonerated after serving 30 years for a murder he did not commit. Cordero's release was facilitated by the Hawaii Innocence Project, shedding light on systemic flaws within the criminal justice system.

Key Discussions:

• Crime and Conviction:

  • In 1994, Timothy B. Blaisdell was found murdered in Maui. Cordero was arrested and charged based largely on the testimony of Michael Freitas, who had personal vendettas against him.

• Evidence and Legal Failings:

  • Freitas’s inconsistent testimonies and his delayed reporting raised significant doubts about the validity of the charges against Cordero.
  • Additional inmates, including Kevin Duncan and Anthony Kakona Jr., implicated Cordero under questionable circumstances, further undermining the credibility of their testimonies.

• Exoneration Process:

  • Advances in DNA technology revealed new evidence that exonerated Cordero, leading Judge Kristen Hammond to vacate his conviction and release him from a life sentence.
  • Áine expresses strong belief in Cordero’s innocence, stating, “This doesn't sound like a very solid conviction. And at worst, I think he may have been innocent of this crime” ([59:09]).

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain: “I think this sounds like a wrongful conviction” ([59:12]).
• Kevin Greenlee: “Yeah, I think so too. I agree with you” ([59:12]).

Insights: The wrongful conviction of Gordon Cordero serves as a stark reminder of the potential for injustice within the legal system. The hosts advocate for continued reforms and the importance of innocence projects in rectifying miscarriages of justice. They also emphasize the role of credible evidence and unbiased testimonies in ensuring fair trials.

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Conclusion

In "Lithium and Liars," Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee navigate through complex murder cases, examining the interplay between legal proceedings, ethical responsibilities, and the quest for justice. The episode underscores the necessity for meticulous judicial processes and the vigilant protection of defendants' rights to prevent wrongful convictions and ensure the integrity of the criminal justice system.

Key Takeaways:

• The influence of media, as seen with the Adnan Syed case and the Serial podcast, can significantly sway public perception and legal outcomes.
• Ethical conduct by prosecutors is paramount in maintaining trust and ensuring fair trials, especially in high-stakes cases involving severe penalties like the death penalty.
• Wrongful convictions, exemplified by Gordon Cordero’s case, highlight systemic issues that necessitate ongoing legal reforms and support for innocence projects.

Notable Reflections:

• Áine emphasizes the need for a "reset" in the true crime genre to focus more on truth and less on sensationalism.
• Kevin highlights the importance of ethical responsibilities within the legal profession to uphold justice and public trust.

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the "Lithium and Liars" episode of Murder Sheet, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of the cases covered.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The cheat sheet Lithium and liars. So my sources, my source for this first story is is WBAL TV out of Baltimore. And this is a case that some of you may have heard of. It is the case of the murder of Hae Min Lee, which occurred in 1999 in Maryland. And the man convicted for that was Adnan Syed, her former boyfriend. This of course, is a pretty famous case in the United States because it sort of, in some ways it led to a podcast called Serial that really ushered in the modern day true crime podcasting boom. So we're all, we're all living in the aftershocks of Serial in some ways. And on the one hand, I mean, obviously we're doing a true crime podcast, you know, happy happy that that exploded because I think it can be a really good vehicle for discussions around true crime. But on the other hand, I think Serial kind of gave us a lot of the original sin of true crime podcasting. Basically it takes what is a very simple domestic violence style murder between two young people and turns it into this kind of like let's all follow from Home mystery because we don't know how crime works, you know, sort of thing. And so unfortunately, that's just led to, you know, kind of, I, I, what I believe is, you know, very clear cut case of just innocent fraud, innocence fraud over the years. I think this guy is guilty as charged. And there's been developments in his case in recent times that have, I think, just been disgraceful in the way that they've been handled as far as inflicting harm on Hae Min Lee's family. And to be, to be clear, and we'll get into this, Adnan Syed was a very young man, you know, underage when he committed this crime. So I think there are discussions, should be discussions about how do we sentence juveniles who have done something awful, but, you know, do they still pose a risk to the community? Is there an effort to rehabilitate? I think all of those are worthwhile discussions, but we'll get more into that later. So the, the way things are right now, In September of 2022, Marilyn Mosby, who was then the Baltimore City State Attorney's attorney, rather, she asked a judge to overturn Syed's conviction. Now, she claims she did this because she felt that was the right thing to do. It should not be lost on anyone that she was facing some, some controversies, some, some indictments of her own around, around her time in office. And we don't need to get into that too much. But in my view, this is just my opinion. I think throwing this kind of high profile case back into the headlines was a very cynical political move. I don't think it was anything other than that. It's just kind of your classic, you know, deflection. Yes, well, that's just my take. Anyway. So that happens. Then Hae Min Lee's family gets involved. They protest this. They say basically the way this was done was completely improper, which it was the convention. The conviction is reinstated. And then in August, the Maryland Supreme Court basically affirmed and upheld the lower court decision, where now they're gonna have a new hearing about vacating the conviction. And in addition to that, More recently, in December 2024, Syed's legal team, you know, he's, he's out of prison at this point, to be clear. They file a motion asking for a sentence reduction. And that the basis for that would be the Juvenile Restoration Act. That's a pretty new law out of Maryland. And basically what it means is after 20 years behind bars, if you're a person who is serving, has served a long sentence for something you did when you were a minor, you can. You can seek some, some reduction in your sentence based on that, based on contributing to the community in prison or outside of prison. It's just an effort to again, focus maybe more on rehabilitation in these juvenile cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

I mean, at some point, the Baltimore City State's Attorney's office was supporting, um, all of this in terms of vacating the judgment, the Juvenile Restoration act, all of it. But just recently, they actually went back on one of those things. They withdrew their motion to vacate the judgment. They are still supporting Syed's Juvenile Resentencing act situation. So they, they, they're like, they're okay with him being resentenced, but as far as just vacating the judgment. And. And let's hear from Ivan Bates himself. This is the Baltimore City State's Attorney, and he's going to explain why he went back on that. What his predecessor, Mosby, had done. So, quote. After a thorough review of the motion to vacate judgment filed by the previous administration in the case of Adnan Syed, my office has determined that it contains false and misleading statements that undermine the integrity of the judicial process. As prosecutors, our duty is to seek justice and ensure that all legal proceedings are conducted transparently, accurately, and fairly. While I did not ask for this task, it was remanded to my office by the Supreme Court of Maryland. Thus, we have a duty, as Maryland barred attorneys, prosecutors tasked with pursuing justice, and officers of the court, to address false and misleading statements in the state's legal filings, a duty that we take extremely seriously. As such, we cannot adopt the falsehoods and misleading statements in the motion to vacate judgment, nor fail to bring them to the court's attention. For these reasons, I formally withdrew the motion to vacate judgment. I did not make this decision lightly, but is necessary to preserve the credibility of our office and maintain public trust in the justice system. My administration remains fully committed to reviewing cases where wrongful convictions or miscarriages of justice may have occurred. However, we will do so with the highest standards of Integrity and a commitment to truth. I recognize the complexity and sensitivity of this case. I hope this comprehensive review and my ultimate decision bring closure to all parties involved. End quote. So Syed's attorney, Erica Suter, who is a public defender and directs the Innocence Project Clinic at the University of Baltimore Law School, has protested this and said, oh, he suffered so long for a crime he didn't commit. Blah, blah, blah. Just, you know, what? Typical stuff. Your typical thing. Again, this man is a guilty man. I'm sorry. I think. I think this. But beyond that. Beyond that. I think the way that this whole thing happened under Mosby's tenure was absolutely appalling from the perspective of Lee's family, it was just wrong. That's not how you do this sort of thing. So I think it's. It's from looking at all this and the fact that they're not protesting sort of juvenile resentencing, he's very likely going to stay out of prison. But I'm glad that at least they're kind of correcting the record as far as this goes, because, you know, basically using this case as a political, you know, poker chip is completely unacceptable.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. The. The family of the victim deserves more than that. These are real people, real lives left behind. It's not just a way to further someone's career.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, what do you make of this statement, this filing, this. This move from Bates? Like, what is he essentially like just reading between the lines? What is he basically saying about what Mosby did?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was no good. I applaud him for doing the ethical and responsible thing. And when you're in a position like that, you can't file or do things that support things that you believe were done incorrectly or outside the rules. So he was ethically obligated to do this. I'm glad he did.

[Anya Cain]

And, you know, again, I think there should be conversations around juvenile resentencing. Can a person grow from, you know, past the teenager who did something awful and become a member of a community that's beneficial? Would that be better? Better than someone just being punished endlessly? Those are all reasonable conversations that can be had in different cases. And I think, you know, it seems like this office is certainly committed to that. But I will note that Syed never has never admitted to what he did. Like, so I guess, for me, something like that, someone learning from their mistakes from when they were young, a lot of that goes further with me. If they admit to wrongdoing and acknowledge that they snuffed out, you know, the very bright, lovely young woman that Was Hae Min Lee in this situation and, um, apologize for their horrible and selfish accents. I mean, I, that, I think, I think serial set set our whole genre on a bad path because I, I, what I remember was essentially like, let's just focus on a lot of meaningless minutia and frankly, hard to believe people who are kind of associated with this whole situation instead of, you know, kind of what I think is a more important overall picture of the truth. It, it, it's, it's, it's set a bad tone. In many ways it was entertaining or I didn't really think so, but for some people it was entertaining. But I think we need a reset in this genre and I don't think it was ill intention on their part. I just, I mean, they didn't realize they were starting a whole new thing, in fairness. But I think when I think back to serial, I just am like, oh, there you go. That's our, that's in the DNA of this whole kind of true crime podcast movement. And it's, we need to evolve.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Agreed.

[Anya Cain]

I think you have a high profile case that recently happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I think before we get to the high profile one.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you're switching it up on the fly. Whoa.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I thought the order was we were going to go out to California next.

[Anya Cain]

All right, let's go hop in our little airplane, our little murder sheet express and go over there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a case the sources I use were the LA Times and ABC7. This is a case involving a judge, of all people, named Jeffrey Ferguson. So this judge and his wife go out to dinner, and prior to the dinner they got into an argument that the judge had a child from a previous marriage that his wife felt was not sufficiently grateful for the financial support that child was getting from the judge. And so they were fighting about that. And this fight happened at the restaurant. And during this fight at the restaurant, the judge made with his hand kind of a gun symbol to his wife. They then go home with a son they have together. They sit down to watch an episode of Breaking Bad, and their disagreement continues. The wife apparently says something the effect of, why not point a real gun at me? Or something like that. And so the judge, who had been drinking, he carries a gun pretty much at all times in a holster around his ankle. After his wife says that, he pulls it out and shoots her dead.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

His son gets the gun away from him. Authorities are called. He, pretty quickly the judge starts making the obvious incriminating statements. He even texts his staff, says, I'm not coming in tomorrow because I lost it. I shot my wife. In a police interview, he says something. I go, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, convict me. I did it. But now he has changed his story a bit. He says that it was all an accident. And before I even get to his story, I'm going to stress that he, as you would hope, if a person is carrying a gun in an ankle holster at all times, this is an experienced user of guns who, by the testimony of his son, talked about gun safety. Don't point it unless you're going to shoot, and things of that nature. So as a man who knew about guns, and I'm also going to say Anya is a person who's been married and has been in situations with a spouse. I would be curious how you would evaluate certain aspects of his story. He says, for instance, yeah, we were fighting about financial support to my son who didn't send us a thank you card. And the fight was like getting out of hand to the restaurant. And so he says, I thought if I made this hand, this hand gesture of a gun to my wife, that would calm things down because it's, because it's a sign I'm giving up the fight. Is that how you would interpret it?

[Anya Cain]

No. What person in their right mind would? Unless, like, that's Kevin and Mai's private joke, that, like, gun symbol equals surrender. Wouldn't a gun be an act of aggression? You're pointing a gun at someone. You're not like, pointing in the air, pretending to wave a white flag or something. You're, you're, that's an aggressive gesture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're saying that would only work if, like, the couple had some sort of private language. Oh, that's a sign I'm giving up.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There is certainly some evidence that that is not the case because she apparently stormed out of the restaurant shortly after that. And I believe the judge himself acknowledged that she seemed to be embarrassed by that.

[Anya Cain]

So she's, he. So he is just lying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is Judge, by the way, I don't know if I mentioned his name. Jeffrey Ferguson. His wife, the murder victim in this case was Cheryl Ferguson. He was 72 at the time of this incident. She was 65.

[Anya Cain]

My goodness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's one aspect of his story that you already seem to be a little bit dubious about.

[Anya Cain]

That's not what that gesture means. If I, if I like, flip you off and say, oh, that's just my private gesture of love, you know, and you storm out because you're mad at me, you know, it just, I don't know, that just seems borderline. I mean, that just seems like a lie. I mean, there's certain things where you're like, okay, I can kind of see going with that or whatever, but that, that's. I'm like, no, that. Let's live in reality.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So now let's cut to a bit later. He, his wife, and their son who's home from college. This is not the financial support son. This is a son that the two share together.

[Anya Cain]

That poor kid.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they're all sitting together, and it's been reported that the wife said, why don't you point a real gun at me? But he says, no. What he thought she said was, why don't you put that gun away from me? And so he thought, well, it was a gesture of peace and goodwill. I have this gun on my ankle. I'm going to unholster it to make things better, diffuse the situation and put it down on the table. But as he's doing that, somehow his hand slips or something, he tries to grab the gun, and he accidentally fires and kills her. Do you think that story sounds credible?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I'm also very dubious of this story and certainly him texting his staff and saying, I lost it. I don't think that's something a person would say if it was an accident. That's something you say if you do something when you're in a bad temper.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I lost it and yelled at somebody. Not I. I lost it and accidentally crashed my car. Like it. Yeah. And. And, you know, yelling about. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, was he. Was he drunk when he was making some of these statements?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was. He'd been drinking all night. He seems to have an issue with alcohol. I'm choosing my words carefully there. He also.

[Anya Cain]

That's a great mix with having a gun on you at all times.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And I don't know if some of this is going to come out in cross examination, but he's on bail. And one condition of bail was that he should not be consuming alcohol. But he violated that prohibition. And then he lied to the judge about it. He said, oh, yeah, the ankle monitor says that I drank alcohol, but that's just because I used cortisol cream. And that's a lie. And he lied to the judge about it. And so that is something that could potentially come up on cross examination because it affects his credibility.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, when you see people in the system, whether that's law enforcement or officers of the court or a judge or whoever, when you see them do stuff like this and then kind of pull these penny antics essentially, where like, they're just lying and getting caught immediately. It just like, it really makes you wonder, although, you know, if he's. If he, if he's devolved into alcoholism, you know, that oftentimes that involves lying to people in your life about what you're doing. So you kind of just start lying about everything to kind of. You're not really thinking strategically. You're just staying one step ahead. So it's like, oh, well, I. I blew the monitor or whatever. Well, cortisol cream. Well, that's not true. Well, you know, you just. That's just sort of it. That's what it strikes me as. That doesn't excuse it at all. At all. I'm just like, observing this. This just seems to be a mess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It does seem to be a mess.

[Anya Cain]

I feel so bad for this woman. I mean it. And I feel. I feel. I feel so bad for the son who saw this. I mean, what a horrible thing to do to your kid and your wife. I mean, I don't. I don't even understand this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He says that his relationship with his son has improved. I don't know if that's true. His son was a witness. One thing, this doesn't really bear on innocence or guilt, but it seems like an odd detail. And sometimes, at least for me, odd details can reveal something about the nature of the character of the people involved. So he shoots her. The. The bullet goes through the chair she is sitting and ends up in a wall. But now you have a chair where she was murdered in or that she was shot and killed in. And that chair has a bullet hole. And he still has that chair in his house.

[Anya Cain]

Yikes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That seems odd, doesn't it?

[Anya Cain]

I'd be curious about what his, like, record was like as a judge was like with did. Was he at one time pretty respected or was he known as a loose cannon even in the courtroom? It could be either one. People don't always. People kind of have this idea or, you know, I think it's. All of us can be guilty of this. You want the bad people. You want people who are capable of doing really horrible things like this to be just kind of mustache twirling villains who are going around and I'm so evil. But, you know, I think all of us are capable of extreme evil. And, you know, I think sometimes people can be pretty competent professionally and have. And be a complete mess personally.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So it's an upsetting case that cry. That trial is ongoing out in California. We will keep an eye on that. We're actually recording this on Wednesday, so I don't know if there'll be a verdict before we release it on Friday. Probably not, but we're gonna keep an eye on it.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So now I think there was a case that got national headlines that and as has for some time and has been, you know, kind of a focus within the true crime space at least a little bit, or like people talking about it. So I think you wanted to talk about that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Let's talk about this. This is the case of the Glossip case that was recently ruled on by the Supreme Court of the United States. It's kind of complicated. I'm going to go through the arguments and let's see where.

[Anya Cain]

Can you tell us what the Glossip case is, though, for people who have no idea what you're talking about?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm going to go through the arguments, but it is part of that. I'll go through the facts and we see what we think. And where we end up on involves a case out in Oklahoma where a person named Justin Sneed beat to death a person named Barry Van Treese with a baseball bat. This happened at a hotel that Van Treese owned, and it was run by Richard Glossop. And Glossop ultimately was found to have solicited the murder, to have arranged for Sneed to kill his boss, basically. And he was convicted of that crime and sentenced to death. There were then some technical issues involving ineffective counsel. So he was tried again and convicted again. This happened, as I said, back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And since the second trial and conviction, he has been maintaining his innocence and trying to get a new trial. And the other day the Supreme Court said, yeah, he gets the new trial. And so let's talk about that. Let's talk about the primary argument. So there is an earlier case called the Napu case. This is a case from the late 50s which sets out the principle that if a prosecutor knowingly solicits or allows wrongful testimony in a trial, he has to correct it. And if he doesn't correct it, and if it's a material issue, then the. The defendant gets a new trial. And we can all understand that none of us wants prosecutors to go around putting fake evidence in trials. But where it gets complicated is how do we know if the prosecutor knew it was false? And how do we decide what's a material issue and what's not a material issue? Does that make sense?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So in this case, there's a variety of circumstantial evidence that ties Sneed. There's a variety of circumstantial evidence that ties Glossop to this crime. I think in all likelihood, he is guilty of it. We don't need to come to any conclusions in this discussion as to whether he is guilty or innocent. What matters here is whether or not he got a fair trial. Because even if he is guilty, he deserves a fair trial. Because if you violate a person's rights one day, that means maybe your rights get violated the next day. So let's set aside our feelings about his guilt or innocence and focus on whether or not he got a fair trial. The key witness against Glossop was this man named Justin Sneed, who actually committed the murder. And so at one point, while he is testifying in the second trial, Sneed acknowledges that there was a point where he was prescribed lithium. And he says, I was prescribed this to treat, like, a cold or dental pain. And that's not true. He was actually prescribed it to treat a mood disorder, you know, bipolar disorder, Right? Yes. And so he. He lied. And so the question is, did the prosecutor know he lied? And also, is this a material issue? And so, first of all, as to whether or not the prosecutor knew he lied, there is a page of notes that the prosecutor took at a meeting with Sneed, which is very ambiguous to say the least. And in a corner of the page, there is the word lithium, question mark, and Dr. Trumpet, question mark. The person who actually prescribed the luthien was named, like, Tromcott or something. So the assumption by Glossip is that this means that during that meeting, Sneed told the prosecutor, I was on lithium, and it was prescribed by this doctor. And the only reason to prescribe lithium is for a disorder, not for teeth pain.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I have a question. Can I ask?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Do. Does it require knowing that the prosecutor knew that, or, like, if the prosecutor doesn't know anything about mental health or lithium or why that would be prescribed and they didn't follow up, I guess. Is there a due diligence requirement here? Like, you should check why that is, as opposed to. Because it's like, I. If basically a prosecutor says, oh, lithium for tooth pain makes sense, does not realize that. That. That's fishy. Like, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a good thing. I'm no expert on medications. I wouldn't know why lithium is prescribed either.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not gonna lie.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But the claim is, it was in these notes. Had to know. Had to know. This was the only Reason it could be prescribed.

[Anya Cain]

It definitely raises that it was on the. That that lithium in general was on the radar. And it sorts. It sort of, I think, points to Glossop's point. I'm just curious about how narrow this has to be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so the argument would then be, this is material, not because that whether or not this person was on lithium goes to the actual facts of the crime, but because it goes to the person's credibility. The argument is this person is misstating why they got a prescription. They're basically lying on the stand, perhaps in an effort to hide their diagnosis of a mental disorder, and therefore that shows they're capable of lying, and that would harm their credibility on a key point. Therefore, since the jury did not get the information that the witness's testimony was perhaps not as credible as you would like, maybe if they had that information, then they would have found a different verdict, and therefore the person deserves a new trial. So that is the argument. What do you think of that so far? First of all, am I making sense?

[Anya Cain]

I think you're making sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I always wonder if I'm making sense or not.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I think you make a lot of sense. I think I can definitely see where Glossypseam is going with this. Again, what I raised was, you know, lawyers. Lawyers are not experts in mental health. If you kind of just write stuff down, does that mean that you're aware that that doesn't add up, or you're trying to follow up on it, or you did follow up on. Might be helpful if they got a hold of that doctor who might be able to sign an affidavit on. Oh, well, yeah, he was asking about his bipolar disorder. Okay, well, then, you know, the prosecutor knew. Whereas if. If there was no call. And of course, it's been a long time, that guy might be dead, for all we know, or may not remember. But I guess I'm just like, I see where Glossop is going here. I don't. I don't feel comfortable being like, oh, yeah, this means the prosecutor definitely lied, but it's ambiguous enough that it raises questions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It does raise questions. And Glossop was sentenced to death. I don't want someone being executed if there are any doubts about whether or not they got a fair trial.

[Anya Cain]

I think that's a good point. The death penalty really raises the stakes here. The death penalty being on the table raises the stakes and makes it. I think this is why some prosecutors actually avoid the death penalty at this point, even in pretty heinous crimes, is because it just. Everything is so scrutinized, rightfully so, because you're taking away somebody's life, the state is taking away somebody's life. So when you have things like this, I, I mean, it just, there's going to be a point where if Glossop is executed, or if he was, had been executed, then there'd be like, there'd be no more appeals, there'd be no more attempts to fight it. If he's just in, in prison for life, then some of that kind of immediacy is taken off the table. Although I'm sure still people would want to have that advocacy going on. You know, does that make sense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That makes sense. So my source for this, by the way, is the actual Supreme Court opinion, which is readily available online and elsewhere. So the first issue is, let's try to figure out do we feel the prosecutor did know. And really the evidence is these notes, which, in a page of notes, largely about something else, in a corner, there's the word lithium and Dr. Trumpet, that's really, really ambiguous. One person on the court said there's other possibilities for what that could mean. For instance, perhaps the prosecutor didn't. They're talking about lithium and Dr. Trumpet, and so they're writing a note on the side, maybe I should question this and ask about it later, then just never got around to it again.

[Anya Cain]

That's kind of what I feel too, because, I mean, I don't know when I'm interviewing someone if I'm taking notes. Sometimes it's just like to do later, ask for clarification. Maybe you don't get around to it. I, I, I don't think this is proof that he knew. I do think it raises some ambiguities and raises some questions, though, so I can understand where they're coming from. I don't think it's unreasonable for his defense team to be hitting that and to have, or for his team, his legal team, to have hit that hard. Obviously it worked. But yeah, I, I think it's very ambiguous. I, it wouldn't make me conclude that the prosecutor's lying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, another person you could talk to about what the notes mean is the prosecutor. The prosecutor offered her interpretation of what the notes meant. I should also say that by the words lithium, question mark, Dr. Trumpet, question mark. There is the, there's a two followed by an X. And she says, well, what happened is that during the interview, Sneed said that Glossop's defense team had asked him about whether or not he had used lithium and about a Dr. Trumpet. And so because of that, she just made a note. She has a 2x, which means two interviews. And those words followed by question marks were just meant to indicate those topics were raised by the defense team in interviews. And it wasn't sneed affirming to her any details about his use of lithium. Okay, so that's plausible at the very least. This feels really like an unresolved point to me.

[Anya Cain]

At best. At best for Glossop's team. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The dissent also makes the point that they argue that it's important that the omission be material, and they say this is not material because the fact that this person may have used lithium had been prescribed lithium at one point, well, after the crime does not pertain to the crime itself. And if you get to a situation where you say, oh, if a person misstates even a minor point that doesn't relate to the crime during testimony and it's not corrected, well, that goes to materiality, because maybe the jury would use that to judge their credibility.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I'll say this, and this is kind of where it kind of gets a bit, I don't know, tricky. It gets tricky because if he's. If he says accurately on the stand, yes, I took lithium. Yes, I took it for my bipolar disorder. You know, unfortunately, mental health, mental health issues, mood disorders have a lot of stigma with them. So what the defense might be thinking is, well, if people had known he had bipolar disorder, maybe they would have discounted him more. And I don't think that's fair or reasonable, because you can have bipolar disorder and be telling the truth. You can have any sort of mental issue or whatnot or emotional issue or anything and be telling the truth. But I guess if you're looking back in 19, in the 1990s when this is happening, maybe that influences the jury's outcome that they're not made aware of that. Just beyond the lying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, what you're saying is interesting, but what you say was, if the jury, you said, if the defense team knew about the mental disorder bipolar disorder, then maybe X, Y or Z. Interestingly enough, the defense did know. Right.

[Anya Cain]

Because they were asking about in the interview. So why didn't they bring that up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They did know. There's no doubt that they knew about it and chose not to use that information in the trial. And you could argue that there is a strategic reason for that.

[Anya Cain]

Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, for instance, the prosecution was saying, oh, Sneed was manipulated by Glossop. And so maybe if you're saying, oh, Sneed has a mental condition that could make the jurors think, oh, that makes him. Maybe he was more easily manipulated.

[Anya Cain]

Perhaps. But here's a question. Why didn't they use this to impeach Sneed?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a, that's a great question.

[Anya Cain]

Because even if you're saying, I don't want to make him look like a vulnerable man with an issue who is manipulated by Glossip. Okay, fair. But if he straight up lies, because I don't, I. How do you mistake. Oh, yeah, the lithium, that was for a toothache. How do you mistake that for, like, your medication for your bipolar disorder? That doesn't make any sense to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, here, here's another point about that. This happened in the retrial, which was many years later, and he had been on lithium for a very short time. So a question could be, is there a possibility that he just simply forgot and it was an innocent omission because it happened years earlier?

[Anya Cain]

But you could also argue that it was a recent prescription. You'd think you'd remember that a little.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bit better, like five or six years earlier.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I, I, you said he was on it for a short amount of time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was on it for a short amount of time years earlier, by the time of his testimony in the second trial.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, that, that confused me. So he was, he, he had already been taking the lithium for a while at that point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was taking lithium for a very short amount of time, years earlier.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is it plausible to think that he perhaps just forgot the reason why or didn't fully understand the reason why because it happened years earlier?

[Anya Cain]

I guess I'd want to know, like, I, I mean, does he have any other issues that would make him not understand what he was taking? That seems kind of hard for me to believe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, that's fair.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I don't know why the defense didn't use that to impeach him, but that certainly seems more like a failing on their part.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Another point that the dissent makes is because, as I indicated, this was a retrial. This was happening years after the events. They point out that there were a number of times in the transcripts where witnesses made basic mistakes of fact and were corrected for it. And that did not necessarily cause the witnesses who were being corrected to have their credibility suffer in front of the jury. It was just viewed by one and all as it's been a few years. And so the dissent argues that even if he had been corrected on a minor point, that would not necessarily have made the jury disbelieve him. Okay, what do you think of that.

[Anya Cain]

That's fair. Yeah. It wouldn't, it wouldn't. Oh, whoops. Yeah, I meant that. I mean it wouldn't have necessarily thrown everything out, but I'm not super familiar with all the evidence in the case, so I don't, I don't know how much it would have weighed. I think it's possible it wouldn't have been a big deal. I think it's also possible if they came out and impeached him and kind of made him look bad, that could have been kind of a bit of a big deal. So I guess it's hard to know. A lot of this stuff seems a bit marginal to me. That's just my instinct as a non lawyer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think there was an opinion in the case that agreed with some aspects and disagreed with others. And their main disagreement with the majority view was what should have been done is not order a new trial but try to spend more time on ascertaining the facts of what these notes mean and what the prosecutor knew. And I think that's where I come down. What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

So who, so who would have been responsible for doing that hypothetical move, like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In terms of ascertaining that, well, in theory the court can order those proceedings by the Attorney general or whoever to investigate.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, yeah, that's fair. Again, you know, with the death penalty, it's so high stakes that, you know, I mean, I can understand it. They were like, let's just do the most dramatic thing. But I mean, I'm not going to lie like when I see, when I see like there's, I'm very skeptical sometimes with some of these high profile innocence claims that seem to be being boosted all around, to be honest. But I also think that just because, just because someone may be guilty or someone is likely guilty doesn't mean that it should be, you know, just rushed or that they shouldn't get a fair trial or that if things go wrong it shouldn't be retried. So that's, I mean, it. I kind of feel ambivalent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. Yeah, it's, it's not an easy case.

[Anya Cain]

Not something where I think it's even behooves any of us to take a strong side. Because if someone brought up things that were like, you know, I mean, these things, again, I think they're kind of ambiguous. I think they're kind of marginal. But I can understand why, you know, why it's happening this way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So it's not something. Yeah, it's just, it's complicated and ambiguous.

[Anya Cain]

Do you Think the Supreme Court made the right call?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, as I said, I think I end up. There was a concurring opinion which said instead of ordering a new trial, they should have done more fact. They should have ordered more fact finding to be done. And I think that's where I fall.

[Anya Cain]

I guess I fall in just having heard all this from you. I. I don't think this is evidence that the prosecutor lied. I just don't. I think her explanation makes sense as for whether or not it should have come out and whatnot. Yeah, that's where I can kind of understand more.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, let's. Okay, so the next case is in Hawaii. This is from. Well, I read about it in the Civil Beat, but the reporting was done by Associated Press, specifically Jennifer Cinco Kelleher. And this is the. Oh, and I also did some research on Newspapers.com specifically from the Hawaii Tribune Herald and the Honolulu Star Advertiser. This is a case of a. What was described as a wrongful conviction of Gordon Cordero. And actually a familiar name in this one, Kenneth Lawson, the co director of the Hawaii Innocence Project.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been a guest on this program.

[Anya Cain]

He has indeed. So he was involved in this. The Hawaii Innocence Project was on Cordero's case. I hope I'm saying that name right. If not, I sincerely apologize. So Cordero was recently his. His case was essentially overturned, and he was. He was released after serving 30 years in prison. He is a man from the island of Maui in Hawaii. And, uh, he was a judge ordered. Rather a judge ordered his release today is, as Kevin said, Wednesday. Wednesday. So I don't know if there'll be developments before this comes out on Friday. But he's always maintained his innocence in this murder case that I'll talk about in a minute. And what happened was that the judge, Kristen Kirsten Hammond, ruled that new evidence around DNA test results would probably have changed the results of yet another trial against him. So just release him. She vacated his convictions. She vacated his life sentence. So he's out. So what. What exactly happened? Well, one game I like to play is when I find a case that is being touted as a. An exoneration or wrongful conviction, I like to look and dig into it and look at it as best I can. In this case, I was only able to go through media accounts, which is pretty limiting, to be honest, but I like to look at it and see. Do I still think that by the end of this? Because sometimes you have cases where you look into it and you're like, no, this guy's definitely guilty, but there was some procedural or technical errors, and he's getting off on a technicality. You know that, to be blunt, that that's often the case. And then there are other cases where you're like, this is definitely a wrongful conviction, and this guy was innocent, and it was a horrible miscarriage of justice. So I was just curious where I was going to come down on one. So let's see if we can figure that out together. So on August 11, 1994, a young man named Timothy B. Blaisdell was murdered. He was found murdered in Maui. And what happened was a group of teenage boys were driving near the lower Kula highway and they saw blood in the road. They went over to this gulch that was used as a trash dump, and they found Blaisdell's body covered in trash, face down. He'd been shot in the head. And in October of that year, a young man, Gordon Cordero, was arrested and charged. Some places have him being from Makawao and then others from Pukalani, but he was a mechanic. And it turned out Blaisdell worked at, I believe, maybe even owned his own auto body shop. So they kind of worked in the same place. There were some discussions of possibly some kind of falling out over a car part, but it's not really clear if that's even true. So Cordero is charged with kidnapping, murder, first degree robbery and such. And. And he had also been charged with robbery, burglary and firearms charges in November for an incident in November of 1993. So he's facing a lot of things. May 1995, the trial begins, and it comes out where exactly a lot of the evidence against Cordero is coming from. And that's a man named Michael Fritas. Again, sorry if I'm saying that wrong. He's the star witness. So who is this guy Fritas? Well, he. He basically is saying that he was. He was cited with Blaisdell the night of his. His death. They're driving around, they're seen together. And what he says happened is that they go out to this lonely stretch for Blaisdell to buy marijuana from Cordero, that Blaisdell walks up to the truck that pulls up or the car or whatever and gets shot. And that Cordero, Cordero comes out guns blazing, points it at Freitas and forces him to drag Blaisdell's body to this gulch. So basically he. This is some kind of drug deal gone wrong. But I mean, as you can tell, there's some odd there's, there's some odd things about that because Michael Fritas didn't come forward for several months. He claims he only came forward after his car was shot at. So he's saying Cordero continued to threaten him and threaten his family. So eventually he came forward. But what the original defense attorney, John Parton, said was that Frita's also looks like a pretty good suspect here. I mean, what do you think about that? He's the last guy seen with them. He admits to moving and handling the body. His story doesn't really quite make a lot of sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he sounds like a suspect.

[Anya Cain]

Sounds like a suspect. And what, what, what comes out is that he may have come forward because he knew police were looking at him because he was cited. So he's coming forward and saying, oh, don't look at me, look at this guy. And what happened was apparently he believed Cordero, who, who's a former friend, snitched on him in some sort of drug situation earlier. So he has bad blood with the guy he's accusing. So there's some problems here, obviously. So they go to trial anyways, and the. The jury starts delivering on a Wednesday, Friday, they're deadlocked. What the defense claims later, although I don't this is just from the defense, is that the original jury was 11 to 12 to acquit. So then Maui prosecutor at the time, Larry Buttrick, sorry if I said that wrong, says that they're going to do a second trial. And, you know, Judge Boyd Mossman declared that first one a mistrial, and Parton leaves because he moves to the mainland. So they get a new, new defense attorney. So, yeah, this is. So some, some additional things about Fres. He. He says he didn't know why the shooting happened. He just saw BL walk up and then just get shot. His palm print again, was on the trash around Blaisdell's body. And, and Blaisdell was also partially enclosed, oddly enough. So there were a bunch of discrepancies from what Fried has said. So here are a couple. First, he said that Blaisdell opened the truck door, but later on, he had him just reaching toward the handle. He hadn't opened it yet. He told a grand jury that the shooting was around 4:40pm later in trial, he said it was 5:40pm so he's moving it back. He tells. He told police originally that Cordero followed him into the gully where he dumped Blaisdell's body. And then in trial said he kind of came about halfway and then stopped and he he told police or he said that basically, I think he has said in trial that Blaisdell's body was left face up. And then when shown crime scene photos at trial of this man lying face down dead, he says that's not how he was left. And. Yeah, but suddenly, Freitas is not the only one accusing Cordero. There are jail inmates coming forward. So one is Kevin Duncan. He claims that Cordero confessed to him. Duncan at that point was serving three cases of serving time for three cases of theft and credit card fraud. So those are crimes involving lying and theft and dishonesty. So not a good sign. He pled no contents, no contest to those, and was sentenced after kind of passing on this confession to police. So again, not a good sign. And here's what's crazy. At the jail, Duncan got some of Cordero's case documents by accident on October 16. Two days later, he goes to police and says, oh, here's the timeline of everything that happened after he saw all this case filings. What do you think about that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, this, I have grave concerns.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So let's go to 1996. Things get worse for Cadero. He's charged with now attempted murder. So what happened? Well, it's alleged by the prosecution that he solicited several different inmates to kill Freitas. So the first one is inmate William Cornelio. Cornelio says, I didn't do it. I, I didn't want it, but then I, I declined it or I declined to do it. And then this other guy, Anthony Kakona Jr. Beat me up. So it's like he's having, like, his hitmen go after hitmen. And the prosecution get the judge's permission, though, to kind of add all those new charges to a single additional retrial. Frida's claims to have been the target of a drive by that missed him. It's, it's just getting. It's just getting nuts. But, but meanwhile, Kakona, who's the guy who beat up Cornelio, the would be hitman, he says he just was beating up Cornelia because Cornelius threatened to report him for a jail escape attempt. So anyways, in 1997, Michael, a man named Michael Freitas is named in the newspaper as being part of a gang of crystal methane, I mean, manufacturing people and dealers and whatnot. And they're busted with 470 grams at a Kalihi apartment. So that's. I don't know if that's the same guy, but I, I believe it may be. Anyway, so these Three additional charges, murder for hire, go to trial along with the retrial for the murder. Meanwhile, Cordero has witnesses who say that at the time of the murder, around 6pm that night, he was either working on a car inside his parents garage or he was building shelves. There's talk about him taking care of his dying mother, you know, but. But the prosecution deputy Kevin Jenkins, argues that an expert found residue inside Cordero's truck that could be consistent with a gun having been fired inside. I don't know what exactly that is or how reliable that is, but in the newspaper at least it seemed somewhat carefully worded. It didn't seem like it was that smash. Smash, you know, that much of a smash. Piece of evidence, but. So there are ultimately three inmates who claim they were, you know, asked by this guy to kill Freitas. One of them says, oh, here's a map he drew of where Freitas lived, but there were issues with that. One of them says, here's a contract he drew up for me to give me $5,000 for this. You know, as, as what's it? Cordero's defense attorney noted. You know, why would, why would you write that down, you know, like that Donald Wilkerson was his new defense attorney. So that, that kind of seemed odd. So anyway, this next trial does lead to a conviction for murder and one of the attempted murder for hire incidents, not, not all of them, but just, just one out of three. And that he was sentenced to two life terms. In the news afterwards, Timothy Blaisdell's mother said she did not believe he acted alone and that she also believed Fretas was involved. Turned out Blaisdell and Cordero were high school classmates. She also noted that Blaisdell did tell her that Cordero severely abused crystal methamphetamine. So what I'm sensing is all these people are in the drug sort of community together. But you know, I guess for me, when you have an abundance of jailhouse snitches and inmates coming forward with these stories and frankly, dubious evidence backing that up, and when you have a guy who has every reason to lie and is the last person spotted with the victim and his palm print is there and it just feels like it was one of those possible cases where you have someone who is. And by the way, Freitas is dead. He died in 2020, but. And he has a reason to hate Cordero. I mean, I think this sounds like a wrongful conviction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think, I think so too. I agree with you.

[Anya Cain]

I believe that Cordero, from what I've read and I, I'm open. If somebody, if there's documents and filings that really point the other way, I'd be happy to look at them. My, my, my feeling from just seeing what was outlined in the press, which is limited and sometimes wrong, I want to be clear. This doesn't, at the very least, this doesn't sound like a very solid conviction. And at worst, I think he may have been innocent of this crime and spent decades of his life behind bars needlessly, because I, I sometimes feel there's almost like a, a genre of wrong conviction where it's like the, the real guilty party comes forward and engineers someone to take the fall for them, and the police go with it mostly out of laziness because it's like, okay, now we can at least have a witness, you know, and that explains the way the palm print and stuff, because he, his story fits that technically and this other guy being guilty. But it's like they feel like they don't have enough against the original party alone because there's no witnesses. Is that, is that a nutty thing to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, that's not nutty at all.

[Anya Cain]

Well, this seems, I mean, it's, it's horrible. But I, I think again, unless this stuff we don't know about, which there very well could be, I, I feel like it was the right call to let this guy out, and it seems like Freetas got away with murder. That's just my opinion, frankly. But, but anyway, is that all for our Cheat Sheet cases?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That. I think that concludes the body of this week's Cheat Sheet episode. So now we're going to get into the, the other part of the episode.

[Anya Cain]

What other part should we do you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think we're trying too hard with a T shirt ads? Should we be like the cool guy and just play it cool and say, hey, if you want a shirt, come and get it? Yeah, just do that.

[Anya Cain]

Just do that. Come and get it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know what to do, you know what to do.

[Anya Cain]

Don't worry about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we don't care.

[Anya Cain]

We don't care at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya's weeping uncontrollably.

[Anya Cain]

We don't care. We, we. Yeah, we don't care. And frankly, if you don't want one, fine, whatever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That just seems kind of doesn't hurt.

[Anya Cain]

Our feelings at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Seems kind of cold and abrupt of us.

[Anya Cain]

What a great way to end the show, Kevin. Thanks a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya often lays awake weeping about all the people who don't have T shirts.

[Anya Cain]

I'm a very, very compassionate person just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Worried about because you know how much it would make a difference in their lives.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If they had an extra T shirt.

[Anya Cain]

So self aggrandizing. That's insane.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're the one that has that attitude.

[Anya Cain]

No, I. You just. You're like, this is. This is. This is like what you do. You make me sound ridiculous. Suddenly everyone thinks I'm stealing cereal. Everyone thinks I'm crying about the shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You woke me up last night weeping happen. What about the poor non T shirt owning listeners?

[Anya Cain]

This is. This is not something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sad lives they must lead.

[Anya Cain]

You said this is not something that has happened ever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How many times I've woke up to find you pacing the floor worrying about them.

[Anya Cain]

Wouldn't that be so messed up if that were true?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is true.

[Anya Cain]

It's not true. You're lying. Just like you lied about the serial stuff. You wrongfully convicted me in the court of public opinion about the serial heist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think everybody has a pretty good sense of what. Who's telling the truth here.

[Anya Cain]

Is there. Should we say buy the book or anything? Or. I mean, I think I don't want to play it cool with that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The book is going to be out in August, right?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, but you can pre order it now and we'll include those links in our show notes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We don't. There'll probably be an audio version. Have no idea who's going to read it. Probably not us.

[Anya Cain]

Usually the podcasters don't read their own audiobook. In the few instances I'm aware of where podcasters publish books because I don't know why, but there must be a good reason.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's not just they hate us, they just hate all podcasters.

[Anya Cain]

They just hate all podcasters. It's honestly, you know, fair enough.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think there's like people who like make a living, right, just doing audiobooks. So they must be like very, very good at it. So why don't you go to a pro?

[Anya Cain]

Well, you know, I'm going to say this. I know that when, when my family and I were talking about this, they. They all apparently universally voted that if it was between Kevin and I, that Kevin should be the audiobook reader. So I wasn't insulted. I was proud of you for getting that win. You got the cane crazy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got the cane nut. I was the one that won there. Let's not name names.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God. What are you gonna do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't do anything crazy, but there is an attorney in Indiana who did audiobooks as a sideline and it's very Odd, because in court you see this attorney being very solid and professional, and then there's, like, samples of the audiobooks he's read, and he's talking, like, sex scenes and doing dialects and stuff, and it was very surreal.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe we can get him to do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, no.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man. Anyways, are we done?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we do a better ad?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. That was really sad. Just depressing. Well, you dug the hole here. You need to help us crawl back out of it. Give us another ad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sir, if someone gives a T shirt and Anya sees them wearing it, she'll give them a nod and a smile.

[Anya Cain]

That's it. Who cares about that? Do people crave that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I know. I'm desperate to get you to smile at me.

[Anya Cain]

Well, why don't you start wearing your shirt around the house just to get some approval?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm desperate for it. I crave it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. Well, I, I, I'm, I will do more than smile and nod at you. I'll probably just come up and say hi.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If I'm wearing a shirt, you'll come up and say hello to me.

[Anya Cain]

I say hi to you every day, okay? We live together. I'm talking about the listeners. Geez. It's not all about you, Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can't remember the last time you said hello to me, Kevin.

[Anya Cain]

I greet you warmly every morning.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You say, you say, good morning. How did you sleep? But you don't say hello.

[Anya Cain]

You are so needy. We're trying to sell T shirts to people, and you're coming in and saying, well, what about me? I don't need to sell you a T shirt because you're one of my fellow merchants.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're.

[Anya Cain]

We're the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're.

[Anya Cain]

We're in business together, sir. Jeez, this is what I have to deal with, guys, every day. And he's holding a gavel now and looking mischievous. I don't even know what's going on here. This has gone off the rails.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This isn't our best work.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, really?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Just hit the button. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That can seem daunting.

[Anya Cain]

It. It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement and you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.com/msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today, paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involved risk Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] sheet before we go, we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Just wanted to say another few words about Viya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically. Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just. They've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15 off. And if you're new to via, get a free gift of your choice. That's v I a hemp.com and use code m sheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about quints? A great new sponsor for us. I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked compliments. I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do, like, European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very, like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to Wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something too scratchy. Like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Anya Cain]

Quince. There you go. So you can go to quince.comm sheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.commsheet that's Q U I N C E COM, MSH E E T.