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- [00:02]
Alex Rodriguez
Behind the bright lights and adrenaline of pro sports is an equally exciting world of negotiations and deal making. That's what we cover each week on our podcast the Deal. I'm Alex Rodriguez, former baseball player turned business executive. And I'm Jason Kelly, chief correspondent for Bloomberg Originals. Over the next couple months, we'll hear from all stars like Jay Williams.
- [00:21]
Jason Kelly
I want to be an owner one.
- [00:22]
Alex Rodriguez
Day, Billie Jean King, learn the business and so many more. Listen to the Deal wherever you get your podcast.
- [00:31]
Anya Cain
Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, the year's best fiction like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com imagine and discover all the year's best Waiting for you with.
- [01:19]
Alex Rodriguez
Credit Karma Finding the right credit card for you is easy. Our app analyzes user profiles to suggest personalized recommendations. Visit creditkarma.com today to explore cards tailored to your needs. Credit Karma Simplifying your financial choices Content.
- [01:34]
Jason Kelly
Warning this episode contains discussion of murder as well as sexual assault and torture and suicide. So in today's Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going all around. We're going to be doing one case that takes us from Hawaii to California and even abroad. We're going to do two cases from New York as well as one case out of Indiana. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [02:00]
Alex Rodriguez
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [02:03]
Jason Kelly
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [02:05]
Alex Rodriguez
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [02:11]
Jason Kelly
We're the Murder Sheet and this is.
- [02:14]
Alex Rodriguez
The Cheat Sheet Loss and Litigation SA.
- [03:03]
Jason Kelly
So how did you want to start this off? You had a whole scheme.
- [03:09]
Alex Rodriguez
Well, part of that scheme was you were going to do the first case.
- [03:12]
Jason Kelly
That's fair. So Kevin and I recently did something pretty crazy for us that we've not done in a long time and we'll probably not do again for a long time for many reasons. But we actually took a vacation and this I I swear this ties into what we're going to talk about. One of the cases. But we actually went to Hawaii and it's a beautiful, beautiful state with wonderful people. It's just a great experience. But as we were. And also we're going to do a lot of Hawaii cases. I think some, some eagle eared listeners picked up on this, that Kevin's always mentioning Hawaii. He's always wanted to go. And so we'll actually be probably covering some cases out of there.
- [03:54]
Alex Rodriguez
More specifically, we went to Maui and it was an interesting time to be in Maui because of this Hannah Kobayashi case. It was really something that was getting a lot of discussion. I remember there's a guy on the radio that was always.
- [04:09]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, we were always listening to the radio when we drove around. We went to Maui and o. But we were in Maui when the, the Kobayashi news broke. I loved this DJ because he had, he was, he was by himself and he had kind of the feel of a guy who wasn't really a DJ who just kind of wandered in and would be like, hey, anyone hear about this? Weird. I loved him. But he was talking about the, the Kobayashi case. And of course this is very local to Maui because Hannah Kobayashi and her family are from the island of Maui in Hawaii. And obviously having, you know, a missing person, then you know, where she disappears before going on a flight in California, seemingly crosses the border voluntarily to Mexico. It just was a lot of intrigue and mystery, but, but especially for people there because it was a local case. So they were, you know, these people who are from there. So they're wondering what exactly happened.
- [05:01]
Alex Rodriguez
So we got some information from cnn. Can you tell us what the latest is?
- [05:06]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, the latest is that Hannah Kobayashi has actually spoken out and has essentially released a statement to the media saying that she was not aware of the media frenzy around her seeming disappearance and asking for space, essentially. And that's sort of the latest thing. Obviously this is a very tragic situation because while Ms. Kobayashi was obviously safe and nothing happened to her, you know, her father unfortunately passed away. He died by suicide during the search for her in California. And so obviously this is a tragic situation for the family. Very, very odd set of circumstances. But here's the thing, like, people can behave in ways that are unexpected or even irrational. And that doesn't mean there's a crime that's been committed. And I think that's always important to rec. I think, I think the Internet tends to see crimes where maybe crimes do not occur sometimes.
- [06:08]
Alex Rodriguez
Yes.
- [06:08]
Jason Kelly
You know, like there's a, there's a sense of paranoia that is unfortunately fostered by a lot of Spaces within true crime. You know, I see people, you know, talking about like, I almost got human trafficked. And it's like, you probably just saw a creepy guy in the parking lot. Like, like, let's not, you know, probably not. But I think this kind of strikes me as like the true crime ification of the discourse where people kind of almost assume and listen, I understand where her family was very concerned, but also it became pretty clear early on that, you know, this, whatever was happening was very likely voluntary. And she's a 30 year old woman, so she's perfectly within her rights to leave without checking in.
- [06:54]
Alex Rodriguez
Let's talk about that. I always believe, and I think we've talked on the show about that, how there should be more accountability in true crime. And that means when people are wrong, that should be remembered. And also when people get things right, that should be acknowledged. And maybe we give those people more credence in the future. For a period in this case, most of the media was acting as if they were convinced that there was something untoward or something bad that happened to this woman, that something criminal had happened to her. And that's something that was prompting the urgency of the search. We've got to find her. Something bad happened to her. We got to find her and make sure she's okay. Very, very, very early on in the process, this investigator named Steve Fisher, who is on Twitter as SF investigates, he was going on Twitter and he was very coolly and rationally saying, I've looked into it. Here's some of the information I have that makes me conclude that this is a voluntary disappearance and that no crime has occurred here. And so I, I think he deserves credit for that.
- [08:09]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think, and I think you're right, it is a two way street. It's not just about remembering who got things disastrously wrong. It's about saying, hey, these people were correct. And it's sort of like, it's like having an account like, you know, every, you know, when you're right and you're doing a good job, you're putting credit on your account. And, and when you're, when you're, you know, not, then you're wrecking your credit score. And people, people should, you know, really consider that. I mean, I think when we first reported on it, we were like, oh, some of her texts sounded pretty weird. But then from there people were still acting like there must be something nefarious afoot. Even after, you know, she was seen on video crossing over alone with her luggage into Mexico.
- [08:51]
Alex Rodriguez
This guy Even before that was saying this was a voluntary disappearance. And he was absolutely correct. And he had good reasons to think so, which he shared. I don't believe he shared everything he knew because he was trying to respect the privacy of the people involved as much as possible, but he was making sure people knew that this was a voluntary disappearance. And again, I think he deserves credit for that.
- [09:13]
Jason Kelly
But of course, you know, the things that catch a fire in true crime are always the kind of like, whoa, it's a. It's a mysterious murder case. Let's all go nuts. And. And not the kind of, like, cool rationality of like, actually, I don't think there's a crime here, you know, because people want it to be a crime on some level. People, like, people would always prefer the more interesting thing. They prefer something to be a crime. They prefer something to be a serial killer. You know, it always has to be more and more extreme to sate the public desire for an interesting story, and that's why it really behooves creators of all types, whether or not they consider themselves journalists or not. I still think if you have a platform, you do have a responsibility to try to put out the truth whenever possible. Everyone's capable of making mistakes. I'm not saying, like, oh, if you make one error, you know, you're out. It's. It's not that. It's just I. I think, you know, hopefully it can be a lesson. It won't be, though, because it's. It's. There's no. There's no real incentives here. The incentives are actually perverse because it incentivizes, you know, making a big deal about this. But I'd say with this case, it is kind of interesting to see, I don't know, just the whirlwind that develops, you know, it's. It almost reminds me when we went to Niagara Falls, what was that thing? It was like the devil's whirlpool.
- [10:35]
Alex Rodriguez
Yeah.
- [10:36]
Jason Kelly
This is one portion of the river that is so swirling and treacherous that if you fall into it, you're basically dead. You know, you'll get sucked under and you're gone. And sometimes the true crime online discourse reminds me of that. It's like sort of people in this case, you know, Hannah Kobayashi, seemingly not even knowing people are looking for her. Maybe there's some family estrangement going on there, her family that's trying to raise awareness. But, you know, it's like these kind of people just get kind of put in this whirlpool, and it's Kind of out of your hands at that point. It's just kind of. It's the Internet's thing now. So somewhat troubling, but understandable that where people were interested, I mean, it was mysterious. It's just obviously not a crime.
- [11:25]
Alex Rodriguez
Let's move on to Indiana and talk about the case involving Joseph Edward Corcoran. This is a man who, all the way back in 1997, committed quadruple murder. He murdered his older brother, his sister's fiance, and two of their friends. This is because he was living with his older sister and a brother. He thinks he may be kicked out of the home soon. He's upstairs, he hears voices. He's convinced these people are talking about him. So he takes his gun and goes downstairs, and things quickly lead to murder.
- [12:03]
Jason Kelly
Also, can I just say he killed his parents? I mean, he was acquitted for that crime, but he was. He had been on trial for murdering his parents prior to this, and the jury acquitted him. And in my opinion, he was factually guilty of that situation. I'm not going to comment on whether the jury made a mistake because it's possible the state just didn't prove its case. But I. I think he killed his parents as well.
- [12:26]
Alex Rodriguez
He was convicted of the murder of the quadruple homicide, and he was sentenced by none other than judge that. He was sentenced by none other than Judge Fran Goal to death. And Fran Goal, of course, as we all know, as we speak now, she will soon be sentencing Richard Allen for his role in the murders of Abby Williams and Liberty German. So ever since this sentence of death that was passed on to him, attorneys representing him have been trying to make arguments that that shouldn't happen. One of the biggest arguments they've made is that he was mentally ill at the time, so shouldn't be held respons principal. And he was actually finally, all these years later, he was just executed this week. And one of the reasons why he was executed was he himself filed a handwritten affidavit to the court. And I would like to read some excerpts from his affidavit. I am the same Joseph Edward Corcoran who was convicted in Allen county in 1999 of four counts of murder and sentenced to death. I'm the same Joseph Edward Corcoran who has a very extensive appeal history. Having lost all appeals, this court has issued a death warrant to be carried out December 18, 2024, before sunrise. My assigned counsel has petitioned this court on my behalf. They seek to further litigate this case. Their goal, which was explained to me by Counsel is to delay any and all executions through endless litigation. They hope to set a precedent so all future death penalty cases can be endlessly litigated, effectively putting an end to all executions. I, Joseph Edward Corcoran, do not wish to litigate my case further. I am guilty of the crime I was convicted of and accept the findings of all the appellate courts. The long drawn out appeal history has addressed all of the issues I wish to appeal, such as the issue of competency. Therefore, I am hereby making this statement to the court through this affidavit. I do not wish to proceed with more and more endless litigation. Thus, I write this court to not accept my counsel's motion and petition to litigate further. I understand that if this court rejects my counsel's petition, the death warrant will be carried out. I was then be put to death for the heinous crime I committed. I understand that the execution will end my life. I understand medically, my heart will stop and all brain activity will cease. I do not know, however, what will happen metaphysically, but neither does anyone else. I understand the execution, in the interest of judgment, serves as both a punishment and a deterrent. I, Joseph Edward Corcoran, give this affidavit to the court of my own free will. I was not coerced into making this statement, nor was I promised anything. I remind this court that my competence to waive my appeals has been adjudicated throughout this extensive appeals process. Therefore, of my own free will and completely voluntarily, without coercion or promise of anything, having adjudicated, having been adjudicated competent, withdraw the motion counsel filed on my behalf. I do not wish to litigate further. However, if this court refuses to withdraw the motion outright, I ask the court to reject it on the basis that I, the appellant, have no desire nor wish to engage in further appeals or litigation whatsoever. End quote.
- [16:31]
Jason Kelly
Wow.
- [16:33]
Alex Rodriguez
So his attorneys are making arguments for him that he does not wish to be made. And so it was interesting, the court considered all of this, and they said that they ultimately found that in that affidavit, he shows a clear knowledge and understanding of what the death penalty is. He accepts his guilt. He comes across as understanding the process.
- [17:01]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, he's quite coherent about it, actually. And, you know, it's. It's interesting. I. I think when I looked at this case, I think I looked at it when we were doing our profile episode on Gull, and, you know, it. It became. It was pretty clear that he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. Like, that was not. You know, I don't think that was up for debate. As far as him being criminal, like as far as him being legally insane, when he killed the people in his house, one thing that really hurt him with that is that he took his seven year old niece and hid her in an upstairs bedroom before going down. So the thinking was, if someone's going down there and is in the kind of grips of some sort of insane episode, would they be cognizant enough to do that?
- [17:56]
Alex Rodriguez
Likely no.
- [17:57]
Jason Kelly
No. The answer is obviously no. And, and you know, and that kind of gets into where there's a discrepancy, where there's a huge divide in some ways between our legal system and our maybe understanding of mental health, where the legal system's really looking at what are you doing in that moment? Are you, are you legally insane in that moment? And what the mental health system is more looking at is holistically someone has paranoid schizophrenia. Maybe that is the cause of what happened. But there's, there is a divide. And so I always thought that was kind of interesting. But yeah, that one kind of act of mercy in a way kind of made it so. Well, technically you're not really insane then. So what do you make of an inmate essentially asking to die like this?
- [18:48]
Alex Rodriguez
If he understands that, it appears that he does, it's his right. Your attorney is for all intents and purposes your agent, acting on your wishes. And if you are competent and you have a certain request, they should fulfill it. The court wrote. I'm reading from their opinion. The state public defenders provided plenty of evidence that Corcoran suffers from a mental illness. But despite his mental illness, Corcoran has demonstrated he understands why he's being executed. And the state public defender has not provided any evidence suggesting that Corcoran's understanding is irrational. When concluding that Corcoran was confident to waive post conviction remedies, we concluded that he has a non delusional understanding of these legal proceedings. And part of what we relied on was his reasoning that his death sentence is commiserate with the crime he committed, which was the conclusion to which both the original trial court, jury and judge came, unquote.
- [19:50]
Jason Kelly
You know, you know what this case reminds me of? There was a serial killer named Michael Bruce Ross out of Connecticut, I believe, and he was a brutal serial killer who, who killed, you know, quite a number of, of people. But after he was arrested, he was sentenced to death and he converted to Catholicism. And he was personally actually against the death penalty, but he basically was also trying to do things like waive appeals. His stated reasoning was to spare his victims families from an endless appeal process. And that is something. And he was ultimately, I believe executed that that aspect of the death penalty, which is that sort of, it kind of kicks off endless litigation as, as Corcoran described it. Here is something that I do think makes the death penalty much more unwieldy to deploy and you really don't see it. People often ask this in the Delphi case. You know, the Delphi case was a man for no reason brutally murdering two teenagers who were just out for a walk. And people are like, that's outrageous. Why is that not a death penalty case? But honestly, I think oftentimes it's to not have to deal with the endless litigation. People feel that life in prison is, is just as bad, if not worse and as a punishment. And so for a really heinous crime, maybe we don't kick off the endless appeals. Tis the season for gift giving. So support our wonderful new sponsor Quince and get yourself some affordable, high quality gifts. Quince is a company that specializes in making the finer things in life. Cashmere gold Italian handbags. Affordable on any budget.
- [21:45]
Alex Rodriguez
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- [22:04]
Jason Kelly
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- [22:26]
Alex Rodriguez
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- [23:05]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [23:34]
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- [24:13]
Alex Rodriguez
Yeah, those are good points. Another case it reminded me of was of course going back to the 70s, Gary Gilmore. He wanted to die and he fought for that.
- [24:24]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, you, you do see that. Like not, I mean, not necessarily like a ton, but you, you see that where people are just like, just give me the death penalty already. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's disturbing. I mean it's, it's disturbing in the sense that his crimes are disturbing and, and kind of reading this affidavit is chilling. It is because you have essentially in very like legalese terms, a man asking to be killed, to die.
- [24:56]
Alex Rodriguez
Yeah, it was handwritten, very normal looking handwriting. There was nothing like erratic about it.
- [25:03]
Jason Kelly
Way better handwriting than me, I'm just gonna say that right now. Yes, I know his, his family, I think came out against the death penalty in this case. I don't know about all the victims families, but I know, you know, his family was victimized by him because they lost another brother, one of his victims. So it's like they're victims, but also, you know, his family. So they kind of occupied kind of a different space. I imagine that's very difficult and I, I feel bad for everyone in this situation.
- [25:33]
Alex Rodriguez
And as we say he was executed earlier this week. The sentence was originally imposed by Judge Go. There was some issues with how she originally imposed it, so she had to go back and reimpose it. But it was carried out as she sentenced just a couple of days ago.
- [25:52]
Jason Kelly
And my understanding is one of the reasons there's been a huge delay with death penalty in, you know, kind of being carried out in Indiana is a lack of a certain drug. But the state has obtained it recently. So that's why things have kind of kicked off again. Now there's a Different. There are prisoners that are executed in Terre Haute, but that's federal. So these are state. That's the difference. So if you hear about, like, oh, well, there's been executions in Indiana. Yes, but those are federal. Yeah, not for a while with the state level. And he was gonna, you know, be the first on. On. On the list. And so that has been carried out.
- [26:28]
Alex Rodriguez
Yeah, we have a federal prison in Terre Haute. And correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't that where Timothy McVeigh was executed?
- [26:35]
Jason Kelly
I believe so, yes. Yes. But, yeah, definitely a sad case all around.
- [26:42]
Alex Rodriguez
Let's move on to a case that's getting a lot of attention. This is the murder of Brian Thompson by Luigi Mangione. Our source for this is cnn. This is a case a lot of people are talking a lot about. A lot of takes, a lot of hot takes on it. And there were also lots and lots and lots of developments in this case when we were in Hawaii. I think at some point we're going to do a deep dive examination into this case. Is that fair to say?
- [27:20]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I'd like to. It's definitely very interesting.
- [27:24]
Alex Rodriguez
We're not going to do that today.
- [27:26]
Jason Kelly
Not on a cheat sheet. You guys know, that's not. That's not what we're doing here.
- [27:30]
Alex Rodriguez
I, I did want to talk about just one aspect of this case, which is that he was charged under New York law with murder in the first degree. Essentially, they. They're describing. The New York prosecutors are describing the murder as an act of terrorism, which they're saying, oh, he did this to. He was intentionally trying to scare people, to change behavior, to terrorize all of these executives. And some people are noting correctly, in my view, that it may be a challenge to prove those elements. But keep in mind that a lot of the decisions prosecutors make when they are bringing charges is essentially to give them bargaining chips later on in the process or to give the juries options. For instance, if he was convicted of this particular charge, he would be sentenced to life. And so that might give him a motivation to try to get a plea bargain, you know, drop the terrorist thing. I will plead guilty to a lesser charge. Maybe I won't do quite so long in prison. And also that would give the jury an option to not necessarily take the strongest possible charge.
- [29:00]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I mean, I. I mean, do you see a world in which a prosecutor with this much evidence even bothers to try to make a deal? I mean, obviously, the. The big thing that people are talking about with something like this is that it's Emotions have run high in the United States. Health care is, is a very contentious and messy topic. And also people are very angry with health insurers, with health insurance giants like United, which of course Brian Thompson was the CEO of. So to me, it's not a case where it's like, oh, they, the evidence isn't there. To me, it's a case where you'd be concerned about a jury.
- [29:42]
Alex Rodriguez
I, I, I think the evidence is there that he committed the murder. I'm not sure the evidence is there that he committed the murder with the intention of terroristic purposes.
- [29:52]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I, yeah, without knowing what they have, I don't, I don't know.
- [29:56]
Alex Rodriguez
That's why I said.
- [29:56]
Jason Kelly
And it seems like it, it seems like a stretch.
- [29:59]
Alex Rodriguez
Yeah. So that's why on the outside. So that's why I'm saying they may be doing that for just a, just.
- [30:05]
Jason Kelly
Kind of a, you set up a.
- [30:07]
Alex Rodriguez
Potential for a plea. Yeah, I should, I should have been clear. I, I think it's clear he committed this crime. Yeah, it's, it's not clear why and it's not clear what his intent was. If his intent was to do a terroristic act.
- [30:21]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I mean, they might have something that, you know, kind of solidifies that, but without knowing, it does seem a little bit, you know, I, I, I would be curious to see how that case develops and if anything comes out about Mr. Mangione, about, you know, you know, his, his mental wellness, things like that, you know, it's, it's, it's really set off the Internet. You know, it really has, it's one of those cases and I think it's set off a, a discussion about health care. I mean, that's, people are talking about that and you know, I think even people in our, I mean, this is a case where it's interesting, like I feel we've had interesting conversations with just people in our own lives of every political persuasion. You know, and consistently, one thing that we've heard, one theme we've heard is a lot of anger at the health insurance industry, which is interesting.
- [31:21]
Alex Rodriguez
Yes.
- [31:21]
Jason Kelly
Because you don't necessarily, I don't necessarily see that unity with anything else when we talk to people.
- [31:27]
Alex Rodriguez
But yeah, we live in a very divided country.
- [31:30]
Jason Kelly
It's also kind of given rise to what I would, given maybe more clarity to what I would look at as like the fandomification of true crime where people, the way people talk about it, it's kind of very meme heavy, very fandom based, you know, that kind of thing where you'd almost expect it to be how people talk about, like a TV show that they like versus reality and a murder. So it's just an odd. It's an odd one.
- [31:58]
Alex Rodriguez
It's an odd one. We'll have an interesting discussion about it, I'm sure on a later episode.
- [32:03]
Jason Kelly
Absolutely.
- [32:04]
Alex Rodriguez
Why don't you tell us about the latest developments in Long island because I know a case you've been following closely.
- [32:09]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, this is. Let's go from New York City to Long island. And the Guardian was the source. The Guardian, yes, we use the Guardian as the source here. And of course, we'll link to all our sources in our show notes. But this is yet another development in the case, excuse me, against Rex Heuerman, who is accused of being the Long island serial killer or the Gilgo Beach Killer. And he was charged in the murders of six women. These were each sex workers who went missing mostly, I think in the early 2000s, maybe some in the late 90s, but certainly, you know, many years ago they went missing. And then in, I believe, around, you know, the. Kind of a little bit later, I think it was like around 2010, 2011, they were found. Their bodies were found near Gilgo beach, bound, wrapped in burlap, and the victims of a serial killer seemingly. And this is one of those cases that went unsolved for. For quite a while and. And was. Was very frustrating because it was just like this heinous, heinous crime, but was, you know, still not solved. And so, yeah, it sounds like. Sounds like it looks like they were. They were found around December 2010, so 2010 into 2011. And four of them were kind of known as the Gilgo Beach Four. That was Megan Waterman, Melissa Bartolome, Amber Costello and Maureen Brainerd Barnes. They were found relatively close together and in displaying a very similar mo but there have been other victims added to the list, and those include Jessica Taylor and Sandra Castilla and now Valerie Mackay. So Valerie Mack, she was previously called Jane Doe number six. And her remains were found in Manorville, Long island in 2000. Just her torso and her other parts of her body were found closer to gilgo beach in 2011. In 2020, she was ID'd. They figured out her identity through, I believe, genetic genealogy, I presume. And now he has. Now Heuermann has been charged with her murder. And what ties her case to Heuerman is that there was female hair found on her remains and that has since been linked to Rex Heuermann's wife. I don't know if they're still married, but, like, soon to be ex wife or wife and daughter. DNA confirmed that to a pretty high percentage. And, yeah, so that kind of sums it up. There's been yet another name, so I guess that's seven now. Seven victims.
- [35:19]
Alex Rodriguez
That sounds right.
- [35:20]
Jason Kelly
Yeah. I mean, and his lawyer is saying, well, that hair samples were collected later on, and it's not. It's not reliable DNA technology. So he's. He's arguing it's. But it sounds like. When they described the mo, the modus operandi, it sounds very similar to other cases we're talking about mutilation. Her breasts were mutilated. Rope was used to bind her remains. Apparently, that was similar to certain pornographic images that Heuerman had on his devices. So, yeah, this case is a very, very disturbing. The things he did. I mean, he's accused of doing to. These are just horrifying. But, yeah, this is. This. This killer targeted sex workers. She would sort of lure them into meetings and then brutally torture and murder them. So it's a. It's an upsetting case.
- [36:21]
Alex Rodriguez
It's a very upsetting case. And don't you have some personal connections to that general area?
- [36:26]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, my. I got family in Nassau County, Suffolk county, things like that. So not too far away. I have a lot of fond memories of Long island in general. It's a. I really like it out there, but it's. It's disturbing. And, yeah, it was like. I mean, Massapequa park, where he's from. I've. I've had family that's lived there, so I'm. I'm. I'm not like. I'm not like a local, but I definitely have been around that area a bit, and it's just really surreal to see it all in the news, I guess, because it's like, wait, what? Why are they talking about Massapequa Park? Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what happened. It's just sad. And I. I, you know, I guess, you know, it's one of those things you. You don't want to, like, necessarily prematurely assume that everything must be connected. I've been kind of holding out. I've been kind of saying, well, maybe there's two killers. But it sounds like increasingly this prosecution team is saying, no, there is one man responsible for a lot of this stuff, and it. His name is Rex Heuerman, and we are going to charge him with all of this. So we'll have to see how it develops at trial. Are there going to be any defense strategies that his defense team can employ to maybe Knock down some of this. So far, the amount of DNA evidence is very damning. So I don't think it looks that good for him. But you never know what a defense team is going to be able to do and accomplish and perhaps raise doubts about some of the elements of it. But yeah, very disturbing.
- [37:54]
Alex Rodriguez
Shall we move on?
- [37:56]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, sure.
- [37:57]
Alex Rodriguez
I think you had some words that you wanted to share.
- [38:01]
Jason Kelly
Maybe some words I wanted to share.
- [38:03]
Alex Rodriguez
Well, we kind of owe an apology. Perhaps I'll let you explain because somehow I feel it's all on your head.
- [38:12]
Jason Kelly
No, it's completely your fault because of your aggressive marketing techniques. I'm sorry. So this was the funniest thing the other day in our Facebook group. This is like, made me laugh. Somebody initially posted, starting to concede to the idea that the only way to stop the T shirts ads is to purchase one. And that's very accurate. And someone commented on that, noting that they had a dream about the shirts and they were, and apparently, quote, they were being sold at a funeral to debunk the rumor that no one has been murdered while wearing one. And I, that sounds like something that would happen somehow. So we're giving people stress dreams with these ads.
- [38:53]
Alex Rodriguez
I think probably you.
- [38:54]
Jason Kelly
No, I know you are.
- [38:55]
Alex Rodriguez
We always hear from people saying, kevin, your voice is relaxing. It helps me ease into the most restful sleep I've ever known. We've heard from more than one person that they've had nightmares about you.
- [39:07]
Jason Kelly
This is, this is how bad.
- [39:08]
Alex Rodriguez
That's true.
- [39:09]
Jason Kelly
This is the follow up comment. This is how bad it was. The, the dreamer said their family was with them at this dream funeral and the family was horrified. They were saying, why would anyone be selling these T shirts at a funeral? And they were like, oh no, I know them. And they were like almost trying to, trying to like get information. Like, hey, this is a bad look.
- [39:29]
Alex Rodriguez
So it's clear you crossed a line.
- [39:31]
Jason Kelly
No, I think this sounds like your MO all over one of your, one of your infamous publicity stunts. I could so see that. And maybe like, I, I'm with you, person who had the dream because I, I would be horrified. And I, I, I think you're the one, I'm the one who doesn't want to sell the shirts. That's what I'm known for. I do bad ads. I acknowledge that you're the one who's trying to always get an angle in and doing weird stuff with Trick or Treatings. I saw one person in the group actually put the shirt on the Christmas.
- [40:00]
Alex Rodriguez
Tree and wasn't that the loveliest sight I've ever seen. Didn't it put you in the holiday spirit as nothing ever happens?
- [40:06]
Jason Kelly
And thank you, that person for sh.
- [40:08]
Alex Rodriguez
So I think everybody should buy a shirt and put it on their tree and you can gather around it and exchange comments about the murder sheet.
- [40:16]
Jason Kelly
I'm sorry. To that person because I'm. Presumably they got a lot of questions from their friends and family saying, are you okay? What's going on in your life where this is happening?
- [40:24]
Alex Rodriguez
No, they probably got a lot of comments. People going up and clapping them on the back and saying, good job. Now I want to do this.
- [40:31]
Jason Kelly
That person's name is Kevin Greenlee.
- [40:34]
Alex Rodriguez
But if a person wants to, as they should want to, if they want to put a T shirt on a tree, how on earth would they procure one a T shirt, not a tree. There's many ways to get a tree. We're not selling Murder sheet branded Christmas trees. This year.
- [40:53]
Jason Kelly
People can go to murder sheetshop.com and purchase a. I almost said a tree. And purchase a shirt. And I'll note this in the. In the new year, we will be expanding our size options. Keep an eye out for that at some point. At some point. No guarantees on timing because we are pretty strapped, but that is something that is ongoing. Negotiations are presumably starting soon after the holidays. So I bet just keep an eye on that. But murdersheetshop.com you can go. There's a number of different sizes. It's a very nice shirt, beautiful colors. And I should note I saw one person in the group posted a picture of their dog wearing the T shirt, which was adorable. And I loved. So your dogs can't. They are human shirts. They're human shirts. But the dogs love them. Apparently everybody loves everybody. The trees, the dogs. It's the Murder Sheet Army. Yes.
- [41:48]
Alex Rodriguez
You're going crazy. You'll get another. Go get more 90s.
- [41:51]
Jason Kelly
And I get people excited about it. Yeah, I'm gonna get. Now people are gonna be worried about the Murder Sheet army that got conscripted into it just by buying the friggin T shirt.
- [42:00]
Alex Rodriguez
I should also mention this is the last cheat sheet before Christmas, so Merry Christmas, happy Holidays.
- [42:09]
Jason Kelly
If you don't celebrate Christmas and if.
- [42:12]
Alex Rodriguez
You'Re disappointed there, if people want. If people say, oh, I really wanted a shirt, I didn't get one for Christmas. You can give shirts year round. It doesn't have to be for Christmas.
- [42:22]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, it's not fixed to any one point.
- [42:25]
Alex Rodriguez
Also, that's one of the great things about the shirts. You can Give them out anytime.
- [42:29]
Jason Kelly
Yes. And. And if you. If you. You know, if it's a situation where if you. Your loved ones don't know what to buy for you, maybe send them an episode on the murder sheet. And you can always, like. Like, if you don't want them to suffer through the whole thing, you can just tell them and kind of don't tell them that. Only actually only do that for the cheat sheet, because we don't do these ads in all the episodes. They'll be just very confused otherwise.
- [42:52]
Alex Rodriguez
So you are encouraging listeners to send others our episodes with the admonition skip to the end.
- [42:58]
Jason Kelly
If they're a true crime person, they can listen. But if not, I don't want them to. Because if we're trying to get people to buy gifts for each other, they're going to be like, what do you want me to buy a gift about this Guardian article? Like, what are you talking about?
- [43:09]
Alex Rodriguez
We also want people to listen to the program. I know. I'm just.
- [43:12]
Jason Kelly
Don't let good be the enemy of perfect. Be the enemy of good.
- [43:17]
Alex Rodriguez
So you're telling. Tell your friends to skip the show.
- [43:20]
Jason Kelly
It's all about the shirts now. We gotta upload these things.
- [43:24]
Alex Rodriguez
Jesus, Anya, we gotta wrap this up soon because you're just getting worse and worse and spiraling and destroying our audience.
- [43:33]
Jason Kelly
You know what?
- [43:34]
Alex Rodriguez
But I wanted to say that one thing we did at the end of the year last year is we had an episode where we took questions. We've already had some questions submitted on Facebook and through email. If you have questions you'd like us to answer. They can be about the case. They can be about any cases we've covered. It can be about our book. They can be silly stuff. They can be personal stuff. Send them to us@murdersheetmail.com and we will try to do an episode where we answer as many of them as we can in an hour. Probably won't be able to answer all of them. I know we won't be able to answer all of them, but we'll get through as many as we can in about an hour.
- [44:11]
Jason Kelly
And I'll also add this. If you are looking for like an early, I guess, like Christmas in August present for yourself. Definitely. Feel free to pre order our book, which is going to be about the Delphi case. It's called Shadow the Bridge, and we'll be out in August.
- [44:26]
Alex Rodriguez
But you can pre order it today.
- [44:28]
Jason Kelly
You can pre order it right now. Get it. Don't even have. You don't have to worry about it. Later. Just get it done. I'm the kind of person where I forget about things, so I try to do things as quickly as possible. Or. Or it won't get done. So be like me.
- [44:40]
Alex Rodriguez
And if you buy the book, don't skip to the end.
- [44:42]
Jason Kelly
No, don't. Well, there's no book. There's not gonna be a shirt ad at the end of the book, isn't there? No, no, Kevin, there's not.
- [44:52]
Alex Rodriguez
Isn't there an author's note at the end? Can we mention the shirts in passing? In the author's note?
- [44:58]
Jason Kelly
Oh, my God, that would just be ins. No. Yeah, maybe just a weird illustration of.
- [45:04]
Alex Rodriguez
You modeling a shirt in, like, my author's photo.
- [45:07]
Jason Kelly
Yeah. Oh, that would be. Oh, geez. No, I'm just cringing thinking about that. No, the book will be an ad free zone.
- [45:17]
Alex Rodriguez
But it may have, like, a author's picture of you with, like, a really big hat.
- [45:21]
Jason Kelly
No, it won't. It won't have that either, but thanks for trying.
- [45:26]
Alex Rodriguez
Huge, huge hat.
- [45:27]
Jason Kelly
Why do you want that? Make me look ridiculous.
- [45:30]
Alex Rodriguez
I think everybody can agree that the shirts are great and Anya looks wonderful in a big hat.
- [45:35]
Jason Kelly
Oh, my God. That's very nice of you, but that's. That's. No. Are we done? Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
- [45:47]
Alex Rodriguez
And don't skip to the end. Don't tell people. Here's a great show. Skip to the end. Because if you. If people's first exposure to the program is the ad at the end, we've lost a listener for life. Is that what you want? Your disastrous plan?
- [46:08]
Jason Kelly
The only people who are willing to put up with this are people like, okay, well, I'll give them one more chance.
- [46:15]
Alex Rodriguez
I'm just horrified by your scheme. How short sighted it was.
- [46:20]
Jason Kelly
I'm trying my best here. I don't even know whose ad it is. Is this my. This is my ad or your ad? I don't even know. I don't. You started having me recite the email or the website information so I don't know what's going on.
- [46:34]
Alex Rodriguez
It's everybody's ad because it's the Christmas season.
- [46:38]
Jason Kelly
It's the people's ad.
- [46:41]
Alex Rodriguez
You should hit the button.
- [46:42]
Jason Kelly
Oh, all right.
- [46:43]
Alex Rodriguez
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [47:04]
Jason Kelly
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [47:27]
Alex Rodriguez
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk.
- [47:38]
Jason Kelly
With other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.
- [49:12]
Alex Rodriguez
On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy. Yes, he's been a really good friend to us. And so it's, it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.
- [49:30]
Jason Kelly
Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated to.
- [49:51]
Alex Rodriguez
Me all the time.
- [49:52]
Jason Kelly
I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so Right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can. Can be nice to listen to in a podcast.
- [50:34]
Alex Rodriguez
It's compassionate, it's affirming. But I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it.
- [50:51]
Jason Kelly
Yeah. And he's got a great community that he's building. So we're really excited to be a part of that. We're fans of the show, we love it. And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to.
- [51:08]
Alex Rodriguez
Podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.
- [51:11]
Jason Kelly
Absolutely.