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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
Fall's my favorite season and even more so this year because I get to bust out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. These are two of my favorite pieces of clothing that I own and I got them for such a reasonable price thanks to Quince.
- [00:14]
Kevin Greenlee
And since Quint's clothes stay in style, you'll be investing in fashion staples that last add some luxury to your life.
- [00:23]
Anya Cain
Between Kevin's cool bomber jacket and my sweaters, it's the perfect clothing for our favorite fall activities like wandering around searching for old timey historical crime scenes or picking pumpkins.
- [00:34]
Kevin Greenlee
My Quince jacket looks nice and keeps me comfortable. Plus it's half the cost of similar products from Quince's competitors. Soon we'll be checking out Quince again and I will encourage Anya to finally get some more berets.
- [00:50]
Anya Cain
Check out Quinte. This is a brand I'm so excited about. I'm constantly talking about it with everyone again, their pieces are like half the cost of similar brands.
- [00:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Find your fall staples at quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com msheet.
- [01:26]
Anya Cain
Audible's Romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you when it comes to what kind of romance you're into. You don't have to choose just one fancy a dalliance with a Duke or maybe a steamy billionaire. You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field. And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm. Discover modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood, the latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros, plus Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Albert Outlander. And of course, all the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery From 1989 to 1995, nurse Kristen Gilbert murdered four of her patients at the Veterans Affairs Medical center in Massachusetts, and she suspected of killing dozens more. On Mind of a Monster, a podcast from ID, criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward dives into Kristen Gilbert's twisted mind to try and find out why she killed her patients and how she was able to do it in front of her colleagues. She speaks with detectives, journalists, nurses and victims families to unpack Gilbert's life and crimes on ward circumstances. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Killer Nurse, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Content WARNING this episode includes discussion of murder, including the murder of children, as.
- [03:03]
Anya Cain
Well as sexual assault. So today on the murder sheet, we're, we're kind of mostly going to the south. We're going to Texas and Louisiana as well as Kentucky and Vermont. So that's the outlier. We're just jetting off to New England, I guess.
- [03:24]
Kevin Greenlee
I guess we are.
- [03:26]
Anya Cain
Why is that funny?
- [03:27]
Kevin Greenlee
I don't know. I guess we're taking the Kane plane to New England in order to be efficient with our time because I think the train.
- [03:39]
Anya Cain
Oh my God.
- [03:41]
Kevin Greenlee
I know you love. I know you love the train and I know you love dressing up as the engineer, but I think today might be a good day for the Cane Club.
- [03:49]
Anya Cain
I'm just pushing the button. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:54]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:56]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:58]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:05]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Mandates and magicians, Sam. So I'm going to do my two cases first, and that's because these are really quite thematically linked in a rather bizarre way. They both involve a young boy, an adult man, some kind of trespassing or break in incident in a residence occurring at night, and a death, a murder. But they also both include a situation where because of the way the system is set up, because the way the law is set up, there's a prevailing sense of justice wasn't really served here and that possibly there's a risk, an ongoing risk to the community. So the first case, you may have heard of this one because it's getting a lot of attention for reasons that will become clear pretty quickly. This is out of Kentucky, involves a little boy named Logan Tipton. He was six years old and in 2015, he's, he's living with his, his family in Kentucky. And one night a man named Ronald Exantis travels from, I think Indianapolis to Versailles, Indiana, and then to Kentucky. And he breaks into Logan's family's home and proceeds to murder him and also attack his family, injuring one of his siblings, injuring his father. It's, it's a horrible, horrible tragedy. And I just want to be clear. There's no debate about what happened here. We know this is, we know Exantis was this man who worked As a dialysis nurse, he went into this unlocked home and he took a butcher knife from their own kitchen and proceeded to attack this family. And he admits doing this as well. But in 2018, a jury taken from the city of Lexington, Kentucky, found him guilty but mentally ill on assault and not guilty by reason of insanity on murder and burglary. So what not guilty by reason of insanity means. It's the classic insanity defense. And what insanity means and what it's typically defined as. I mean, it varies. It varies based on where you are in the world. And there can be different interpretations of this, but what it generally means. In the United States, insanity is not defined as you have schizophrenia or you have a specific psychiatric disorder. It means that at the time of the commission of the crime, you had some kind of something wrong with you to the point where you could not tell right from wrong. So the classic example is if someone goes and shoots somebody in the street and then turns to a nearby police officer and says, don't worry, sir, I've killed the dragon. Obviously, that person wasn't a dragon. Maybe they have some sort of psychiatric issue that made them think that therefore, not guilty by reason of insanity would be appropriate there, because truly did not know right from wrong, thought they were doing the right thing. And it's because of this, you know, mental illness, psychiatric issue that this all happened. So it's not saying you didn't do it, it's just saying you weren't responsible for your actions to that point. Whereas. So that's, you know, precludes cases where someone's trying to cover something up because they may have some sort of mental issue. But if they're trying. If they know enough, I did something wrong, and they're trying to cover it up, guilty, you know, kind of a guilty reaction, then that's gonna. So it's. As a result of that, it's rarely used. It's not. It's often used in the movies and stuff, but it's really not, you know, always going to work. But in this case, it did work. And, you know, without looking at the original case file, I don't. I don't know what to make of that. It's possible that the jury had every reason to think that this was a case of severe mental illness resulting in a tragedy. So I'm not going to criticize that original jury's decision. But, you know, the jury's decision does play a role in what's happening now, because based on the way he was convicted and based on, you know, just all the way all this went down. Ronald Exantis, who's 42, is. Is being freed under the state's mandatory re entry supervision law. We'll talk more about that. People are understandably outraged. Logan's family is devastated by this. His father's made comments to the media that if he ever sees this guy, he will kill him. Understandably, this guy killed his little son. I mean. I mean, if I were them, I wouldn't care if he was mentally ill or not. I just wouldn't. You know, I mean, like, that's. That's an emotional thing, but, I mean, a family's experience is going to be different from how the law is being applied. They're going to have, obviously, a much different reaction, and they feel like they've been let down by the law here. It's like, not only did this guy take away our kid, he's getting to walk now because of what seems to be a legal loophole. And understandably, people have been outraged. It's attracted a lot of attention. People are furious. But the thing is, they're taking it out on the wrong people. And here's what I'm gonna say. When you're. When we're all mad about something in crime, if we're blaming the wrong people, we're kind of being useless because those people can't help it. If we want change, we need to take it to the people who can actually change things. Is that fair to say?
- [10:50]
Kevin Greenlee
That's fair to say.
- [10:51]
Anya Cain
So, so the people who are getting blamed here are the parole board in Kentucky. So.
- [11:00]
Kevin Greenlee
And they're just following the law. The law is being followed here. This wasn't the parole board's decision.
- [11:05]
Anya Cain
The parole board voted against releasing him.
- [11:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Anya Cain
They're saying no, he should not be released. So they tried, but the parole board is bound by laws passed by the Kentucky legislature, and that means that he has to be released under the law. But unfortunately, people are trying to dox the parole board members. They're trying to threaten them, threaten their families. Like, Logan's family had to go through this. So now your family's going to go through this. And it's like, again, not only should you not be threatening anyone, it's literally not the parole board's fault. They. They tried. They tried to do what they felt was right here in saying he should be denied parole, but they are bound by the law. And I want to be clear, this law was, I believe, passed all the way back in 2011. Now, since then, there's been legislation that sort of closes this loophole, the Safer Kentucky act. And they say that it kind of closes the gaps, but it doesn't work retroactively. It doesn't work. They can't go and make it work for all the past cases. It's only on your.
- [12:16]
Kevin Greenlee
That wouldn't be fair. You're not allowed to change the laws to apply to things in the past because that's not fair to the people in the past. You can't suddenly make up new laws. Like if Anya doesn't like it, me wanting her to wear a beret, she can't pass a law saying, kevin, you deserve to be punished for making me wear a beret for dinner last night.
- [12:41]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And so, you know, so again, like, he stabbed a six year old to death. The outrage is understandable, but the parole board members are not to blame. And this 27, 2011 law is. This is what that law says around mandatory re entry supervision. So these are mandates that somebody has to be released. The mandatory re entry supervision six months prior to projected completion date of inmate sentence for inmate not granted discretionary parole. 1. The board shall order mandatory reentry supervision in six months prior to the projected completion date of an inmate's sentence for an inmate who has not been granted discretionary parole. 2. Provisions of Subjection 1 of the Section shall not apply to an inmate who A Is not eligible for parole by statute. B. Has been convicted of a capital offense or class A felony C Has a maximum or close security classification as defined by administrative regulations promulgated by the department D. Has been sentenced to two years or less of incarceration. E Is subject to the revisions of KRS 532043. F has 6 months or less to be served after his or his sentence, his or her sentencing by a court or recommitment to prison for a violation of probation, shock, probation, parole or conditional discharge. G If recommitted to prison for a violation of probation, shock, probation, parole or conditional discharge, has not served at least six months since being recommitted or H has twice been released on mandatory re entry supervision, end quote. So because he was found not guilty by reason of insanity, you know, the capital offense thing doesn't apply here. So ultimately it's the combination of the jury making the finding that it did, which again I'm not going to question because I don't know, maybe very compelling evidence was released that he was insane. And then reacting to this 2011 law which is seemingly was passed mostly about. So it was the Public Safety and offender Accountability Act HB 463. And it was about, I think maybe saving costs by having people be released and then freeing up space in prison. And it sounds like, I mean, according to Pew, it did save $29 million and it helped. They credit it with reducing new offense rate by 30%. So it's not necessarily even just a bad law by itself, but the fact that it has this loophole where someone like this who did something like this could be released in a situation like this, that's what's truly horrifying. You know, and it's those cases that are going to inflame the public and sort of have them lose confidence in the system and how things are being spread spelled out. Like, I mean, we never gonna hear about a bunch of people got released under this mandate early and did a good job. And like, we're fine, but we are gonna hear about this guy who I think everyone can agree if you do something like this, even if you're mentally ill, you should be committed for life in a secure psychiatric facility. And that's it. There's no, there's no, we don't need people like that out here. And maybe it's not his fault, maybe it's not this Exantis guy's fault. Maybe he's just totally a mess psychiatrically and that's fine. But then he should be put away for life one way or another. Like, I just don't. We don't need people who are going around and killing six year olds, whatever their reason, obviously. So I think the outrage is understandable here. I think the outrage hopefully can serve one thing that one of the state representatives now is saying, and this is Representative, I think. I'm not going to say his last name. Right. So I apologize. It's Jason Neemes. So this is attractive. You know, the White House has commented on it. The. There's been a lot of outrage. So what he's saying is that, you know, he wants to introduce something called Logan's Law to ensure that people who are found guilty by, of, you know, by, from not guilty by reason of insanity are put in mental health facilities. And also that, you know, something about protecting a victim's family when a criminal is released. Not really sure what that aspect is about. That's pretty vague. But there's an interest in looking at the case under a federal level and maybe like seeing if something can be done on that front. Although I don't really know. I mean, he did travel from Indiana to Kentucky to do this. I, but I, I don't know what the federal nexus here would be. But you know, I don't know, it's sad. I feel bad for this kid's family. This, this shouldn't have happened. But sometimes the law, the law is written by humans and there can be loopholes and those loopholes can have a pretty devastating, devastating impact on people. We all love true crime. That means getting to know a ton about some scary stories and situations. We are all aware of the danger, but that means we can prepare for the worst and possibly protect ourselves and those we love.
- [17:45]
Kevin Greenlee
That's why we use SimpliSafe. We've used and trusted them for years to protect us as well as our dog and executive producer Lani. Right now. Murder Sheet listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system. Just go to simplisafe.commsheet Bad things happen, but you can take action. Just join us and 4 million Americans who also trust Simplisafe with their home security.
- [18:13]
Anya Cain
I love that Simplisafe doesn't force you into long term contracts. Plus they have a 60 day money back guarantee so you can try it out without committing right away. They provide you with agents that monitor your home. These agents can detect possible prowlers and intervene before the break in even happens. The agents can just hop on a two way audio system to confront the intruder and set off the sirens and spotlights. They're not reactive, they're proactive, keeping your family and property safe from all harm.
- [18:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Try out SimpliSafe. We have and we'd love their proactive approach to home security.
- [18:49]
Anya Cain
Right now my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk free today@greenlight.com wondery that's greenlight.com wondery it's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline. Which means if you're not approved, they.
- [19:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Won'T hurt your credit scores.
- [19:52]
Anya Cain
Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores. Experian. That was about a case where an adult man got into somebody's house and killed a kid. Let's talk about the opposite. Now this is a listener suggestion. This is out of Texas. So January 18, 2022, a young man, 32 year old, Brandon O' Quinn Raspberry, is found shot to death murdered at the Lazy J RV park in Nixon, Texas, which is about, I think like 60 miles away from San Antonio. He shot once in the head. And then the Gonzalez County Sheriff's Office gets called into the Nixon Smiley Independent school district on April 12, 2025. The principal calls them that. I guess the. So at that point, one of the, I think school officials became aware that a child was a 10 year old boy was threatening to kill and assault another student on the bus the prior day. So a deputy goes out to do the investigation and school officials tell him that the kid said something else. This kid made the statement that he shot and killed a man two years prior. So authorities take the boy to a child advocacy center, they interview him and he confesses to this murder. So he says that January 16, 2022, he's visiting his grandfather at the lazy JRV park. And now it's in original reports this didn't come up. Now it's claimed that he, he claims and you know, who knows what if he's telling the truth, that this Raspberry guy told him to shut the F up at some point, but they didn't have really any interaction other than that. And at the time, some of these reports don't even mention that. So I don't know if that's true or not, but he steals his grandfather's 9 millimeter pistol from the grandfather's truck's glove compartment, goes into Raspberry's RV who and Raspberry is sleeping and the kid shoots him in the head and also shot the pistol into the couch and then left. And yeah, contemporaneous reports said they don't quarrel, but then later on there's allegations about this quarrel and then the investigators are able to track down the gun. They found it at a pawn shop. They find, they analyze the spent shell casings and they determined that it's a. Now here's the thing. The Kid was seven when. When he did this. And Texas law says that you. You're not criminally culpable until you're 10. So he was too young to charge with murder. What do you make of that? Just like this is an extraordinary story.
- [23:01]
Kevin Greenlee
It's an extraordinary story. I certainly would not be comfortable with the idea of charging children with murder, if that's what you're asking.
- [23:11]
Anya Cain
No, I. I don't think you should either. I think that's appropriate. But I also am not comfortable with the. Well, we'll go into more about this child's history. I'm not comfortable with where things are now. Let's just say that. So he was taken to a psychiatric hospital in San Antonio. And then, you know, he was booked on a terroristic threat charge for what he did on the school bus. And, um, Kenneth. Kenneth Raspberry, who is the victim's father, he. He's forgiven the boy in hopes that he can be rehabilitated. But what's happening now is even wilder. So. Okay, I don't. I'm not a child psychiatrist. I think that this kid's whole situation shows some pretty extreme red flags. The. The boy's initials are J.C. we don't know his actual name, and his. He's currently in the custody of his grandmother, PC So these are some things from a recent plaint. A recent lawsuit between the Gonzalez Independent School District and this family. So this is the introduction quote. In January 2022, JC murdered an adult male, but was never charged with a crime, given his age, 7 years old at the time he committed the murder. After confessing to the murder, Jaycee underwent various psychological examinations and participated in therapy, but his behaviors persisted. Moreover, Jaycee did not show remorse for his actions, concerns about the consequences he would suffer, or any internal motivation for self improvement. Indeed, a May 2024 evaluation described Jaycee as a sociopath. It is under this context that the district seeks a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction allowing the district to place JC at the Shiloh Treatment center pending the outcome of the special education due process hearing. End quote. So this is what's going on. JC is 11 now, and his grandmother, PC is saying that he has a disability and he's eligible for special education and related services under the Individuals with Disabilities Education act because he has an emotional disability and therefore he should be placed in school in this district and in their. Basically make it their problem. And the school is saying, we don't feel like that's safe at all and we don't want him. We don't want him around the teachers. We don't want him around the other students. He's literally murdered somebody. And he's a complete sociopath, and we can't deal with that. And he should be in a treatment center. And I don't know about you, Kevin, but I think obviously the school is correct. And I don't know why this kid has been placed back into the hands of this family who did such things as, like, leaving a gun around for him to find. And it gets worse than that. Some of his behavior, he was known to in school, deliberately pee on the floor, pretend to throw up, spit on the floor, bitten. Bitten. Other students, hit other students, damaged furniture, broke a window, threatened to kill himself. Yeah, just left, just absconded. He has no remorse for this murder. And I just. He would. He will choke his own grandmother and hit her. He's been aggressive to his younger sibling. There is a indication that his younger sibling has claimed that he has sexually abused him. And there are. There was a belief that he killed a litter of puppies in the neighborhood. And he also ordered a CO2 cartridge pistol on ebay using his grandmother's credit card. So, first of all, why does this woman have custody of him? Why is he not being put into a situation where he can't continue to harm himself and others? And two, why should other parents and children have to have the concern of this kid running around? I just don't even understand that.
- [27:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, those are good questions.
- [27:25]
Anya Cain
Someone like this should be in a rehabilitative center that's. Frankly, he's probably only shot at having a remotely normal life. Although, frankly, I don't even know if that's in question at this point. You know, I guess maybe some kids will respond well to treatment. I'm sure some won't. Not everything's like a happy ending, but I think it's totally outrageous that they're basically holding this school district hostage so that, you know, grandma can get a few days off. I mean, put him in a rehabilitative center. I mean, again, like this. I don't. I'm not going to say it's the family's fault he turned out this way. I don't know. Maybe they did a great job raising him and there's just something deeply wrong with him. Or maybe they've been doing a terrible job and he turned out that way because of that. I don't know. But I don't think this kid should be around other kids. Like, again, that's just dragging everybody down for the sake of one person. And I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's safe for this learning environment.
- [28:26]
Kevin Greenlee
And I. Yeah, it's very troubling.
- [28:29]
Anya Cain
Yeah, like what? I mean, and this is why I do not want to hear it when people say things like, oh, I can't believe they think a teenager did this. Kids and teenagers can be sociopaths, too. And in fact, because their brains aren't developed yet, you know, they can even be potentially wilder than some adults. And I think this, again, this kid's JC's only shot here is to get some really intensive help in a situation where he is removed from his family so he cannot continue to hurt them and others. Like, that's not. I don't. I wouldn't even know why they would be fighting to put him in school rather than put him in something like that. What do you think?
- [29:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I think you raised some excellent points. Is a very troubling story.
- [29:21]
Anya Cain
Like, this kid, like, there's a. In interviews with these psychiatrists, he's talking about how he really enjoyed shooting a baby hog while hunting with his grandfather. And then like, talking about how the mama hog died, too. I mean, there's something wrong with this kid. And I mean, his family is clearly just not part of the solution at this point.
- [29:44]
Kevin Greenlee
We should keep an eye on this one.
- [29:45]
Anya Cain
I would be so freaked out if I were a parent in this school district. It's like, oh, you know, future school shooter situation, you know, that that's not what anybody needs to be worrying about. Kids are going there to get an education, not to get potentially attacked or sexually assaulted by a violent offender who's already killed an adult man for no reason and has no remorse about it, you know, and again, he's a child. It's sad. Whatever turned him into this, whether it was genetics or bad experiences, who knows? But it's. It doesn't have to become everyone else's problem as far as the children who are doing nothing wrong and just trying to get an education. It should be everyone else's problem in terms of getting him treatment and putting mental health dollars towards putting him in a safe environment where perhaps he can be treated and taught to deal with his sociopathic tendencies in a way that doesn't hurt other people.
- [30:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Well said.
- [30:43]
Anya Cain
What are your cases?
- [30:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, before I get to my actual cases, I want to do something unprecedented, something unauthorized. I don't think I sought your approval for this. Not sure if you'd give me your approval for this if I asked you to do it, but it's something. I'm curious about what you think about something. And I'm curious about what our listeners would think about this topic as well. So when I was looking for cases, I came across a story about an exchange on, of all things, the Dave Ramsey Show. Are you familiar with the Dave Ramsey Show?
- [31:17]
Anya Cain
Vaguely. I often get, like, YouTube ads for that, but I don't really know what it is.
- [31:23]
Kevin Greenlee
I've never partaken of Mr. Ramsey's program. I believe it's some sort of a financial show.
- [31:30]
Anya Cain
I think I've seen stuff from one of his friends whose name escapes me now but gives psychological advice. But, yeah, I think that's part of the David Ramsey universe.
- [31:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Universe, yeah. All of our shows, we all have our own universes.
- [31:44]
Anya Cain
Extended universe, exactly.
- [31:47]
Kevin Greenlee
So somebody writes in and says Dave. I'm assuming the listeners would call him by his first name because everybody's friends with the hosts of a podcast, right?
- [31:58]
Anya Cain
Yes, you're everybody's friend.
- [32:01]
Kevin Greenlee
That's why you call me Kevin. You call Anya Anya, because we're all buddies here.
- [32:05]
Anya Cain
It's Ms. Kane. I'm kidding.
- [32:11]
Kevin Greenlee
They say my wife is very, very upset because there was a murder that happened in the house next door. And so she's thinking, we really need to move. And Dave Ramsey just, like, focuses on the financial thing. But he says, well, I looked into this murder, and it looks like it was just a domestic murder, so there's no reason for her to be afraid. And that way you wouldn't have to worry about any financial implications of just staying in the house. But I'm curious, Anya, if, God forbid, there was a murder at a house in our neighborhood, perhaps next door, would you want to move?
- [32:52]
Anya Cain
It would depend on the situation. Not necessarily, no.
- [32:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Would you be like Mr. Ramsey and do, like, a cold cost benefit analysis and think, well, I'm not in personal danger here, so even though someone died horribly next door, I'm fine, I'm gonna stay here?
- [33:10]
Anya Cain
I mean, probably, yeah.
- [33:13]
Kevin Greenlee
I think it might affect my enjoyment of the neighborhood.
- [33:17]
Anya Cain
It depends. But, I mean, I guess I. I just see it as like. I mean, if, like, crime rates are going up in an extreme way in your neighborhood, that's going to affect me more so than a single solitary murder. Is the murder like somebody's troubled grandson got into an argument, got a gun, and shock Grandma? I don't know. I mean, that's tragic, but they probably got them, and it's not really at risk to everyone else. If it's a situation where it's like, oh, my gosh, this is a gang war erupting on our street every other week somehow. Yeah. Then I'm.
- [33:50]
Kevin Greenlee
So, you see, like Ramsey, you're not so much looking at the emotional implications.
- [33:55]
Anya Cain
In the decision about whether to sell my home and move. Yes, I'm not going to be looking at that emotionally. You, in the. In the aspect of, oh, that's really sad, and it's sad someone lost their lives. Yeah. I mean, as a human, I'm gonna be looking at that, but not. I don't think you should be making financial decisions just based on pure emotion.
- [34:13]
Kevin Greenlee
It might spoil my. My feeling for the neighborhood a bit. I'm not gonna lie.
- [34:17]
Anya Cain
Even if it was no threat to us.
- [34:22]
Kevin Greenlee
I think, you know, going down to the old fishing hole down at the end of the street or doing.
- [34:26]
Anya Cain
The old fishing hole.
- [34:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Don't we have a fishing hole in our neighborhood? I think, metaphorically, we all have a fishing hole in our neighborhood. So I'm thinking maybe I. I understand what the wife in this situation feels like, and I wonder what the listener thinks. If, If, If. If something like that happened in your area. Is that something that would bother you to the extent where you'd seriously consider moving?
- [34:49]
Anya Cain
I think that if. I'm sure people who are listening maybe have had that happen in their neighborhood. I mean, it can happen, right? And, I mean, I went my hometown, there were kind of two murders associated with it, but there was one house that was kind of the murder house because it was like, the only house in town someone had gotten literally murdered at. And I remember my dad saying at one point, like, oh, man, maybe we should have bought that one, because I bet we would have gotten a good deal. Gotten a good deal on it. I don't even know if that would have been true, but I think. I'm sure people have had that. But, yeah, no, I mean, I guess, personally, there's so much money tied up in any house, in any place where you're living, that I would just say that for me personally, you know, I. I would hate. I would hate to just move based on something of like, oh, the vibes are off now.
- [35:39]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, let's go to your. To your father's question. Would you be willing to buy a house where a terrible crime happened if you thought you got a good deal on it or even that even come into play? Sure.
- [35:52]
Anya Cain
I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be seeking it out. I know there's instances where there can be infamous crimes. I think I've read articles on this where realtors are almost like, oh, yeah, this happened there. And then people like, ooh, mysterious. And it used to be something where, like, they wouldn't want the house, but now some people are so into true crime, they're actually, like, they want it. They're intrigued. I don't think it would factor in for me at all. It's. Is the house right?
- [36:13]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, my understanding of real estate practices and. And correct me if I'm wrong, Realtors, is that if something terrible happened in a house, you don't have to tell potential buyers that. But if they ask you, hey, did something terrible happen in this house?
- [36:30]
Anya Cain
You need to tell them, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
- [36:36]
Kevin Greenlee
To me, it wouldn't have affected my decisions, but when we got a house and earlier when we were living in Brooklyn, I suddenly looked up the address in newspapers, dot com, and there was.
- [36:47]
Anya Cain
A murderer who boarded there for a time. Remember that?
- [36:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. In Brooklyn.
- [36:51]
Anya Cain
He was executed.
- [36:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. A guy. A guy who was a killer lived in our apartment. Not while we were there.
- [36:57]
Anya Cain
No. It was like, in the.
- [36:59]
Kevin Greenlee
That would have been like, a really bad sitcom or some sort of HBO drama or something.
- [37:07]
Anya Cain
Yeah, we. I mean, I think it's. It's. Here's the thing for the. For the wife who was calling that in, if somebody. If you feel, like, unsafe, you know, if you feel like, okay, this. This, like, there's a lot of crime and things are, you know, gonna. This is gonna go wrong. I. I think I. And I found the. The Brooklyn case, by the way, so I'll read about that in a second. But I think that's when you have to listen to your gut. But you also. I. I think sometimes we tend to get emotional with decisions based on the wrong data, you know, and, like, if it's something where, like, this is a tragic, isolated incident, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna affect you and your family. Like, your neighbor can get very sick and die, and if there's a contagious disease going around and that's part of it, well, then that might put you at risk. But if it's something where it's just, you know, that just happened to him and it's not contagious, then that's kind of an isolated thing. And you can be sad about it, but it doesn't necessarily mean you need to move.
- [38:08]
Kevin Greenlee
And certainly earlier in our. In our lives, earlier in our relationship, we lived at a residence where. Next door, or actually two houses down, at one point, there was a police standoff, and no one died. And so that just seemed colorful.
- [38:22]
Anya Cain
Didn't was upsetting because we like, couldn't get back home. And suddenly like, we, we literally. Oh my God. We probably told this story on the show, but we literally go, we're going home.
- [38:32]
Kevin Greenlee
And we have our dog Lanny with us.
- [38:35]
Anya Cain
Thank God we had Lanny with us that night. Cause we were going to see Kevin's parents.
- [38:39]
Kevin Greenlee
And yeah, to be clear, we're not the couple who just takes our dog everywhere. We're not like the Harts or Nick and Nora Charles. It's not like we're going to McDonald's and we're taking our dog in with us. We were visiting my parents and we, we took the dog with us. And then when we came back, there was police saying, you can't come back here. There's a police standoff.
- [38:58]
Anya Cain
Yeah, like these.
- [38:59]
Kevin Greenlee
And the people who were there weren't allowed to leave their homes.
- [39:02]
Anya Cain
It was like the state police have this bus thing. Like, I don't trailer that they bring to like, I guess standoffs. Wasn't that there? Am I like hallucinating that that was there? That was there we go. And I, I. We've seen that before. So we're like, what is what, like what is happening? And it was weird because as we were leaving our subdivision that day, we saw two police cars. I think it was like two or three police cars just kind of sitting on the side of the road there. And we were like, that's odd. But this, you know, this meth head guy, I think shot a couple of police officers. Fortunately, no one was hurt seriously or killed because they were wearing vests. But it was just a mess.
- [39:42]
Kevin Greenlee
And eventually it was like everybody knew he was going to end up being arrested. He seemed to think, well, if I just stay in here long enough, all my problems will be over. And so he's not coming out.
- [39:52]
Anya Cain
The police are just gonna be like, all right, we're gonna go now.
- [39:54]
Kevin Greenlee
You got us.
- [39:55]
Anya Cain
You got us.
- [39:56]
Kevin Greenlee
It's quitting time. And so it was a very, very cold, wintry day. And eventually what they did was they turned off the heat of the house and then they broke some windows and they sprayed them with a fire hose.
- [40:09]
Anya Cain
So, yeah, that was. We found all these like, I guess like, I like spent. I think there were non lethal rounds in our yard and our neighbor's fence got like driven over something. It was. But this is the murder that we lived at. So we. I'm not going to say the address, but we, I guess it doesn't matter.
- [40:30]
Kevin Greenlee
But it doesn't matter.
- [40:31]
Anya Cain
For Green In Brooklyn, there was a guy in 1947, on January 3rd, Friday, January 3rd, 1947, 23 year old Leslie Natter was shot down and murdered during a holdup in Brooklyn. And then detectives got a tip and they kicked down the door at where we used to live and burst in and arrested 19 year old Matthew Wallace and 18 year old Javin Jackson and found a.38 caliber revolver with one shot fired. And Natter had been a partner at the RMR Metal products company at Dean street and the, you know, so I guess this Jackson and Wallace invaded that and shot him during a struggle. And so in 1948, because this is how quickly things used to go. Javin Jackson, 20 years old, was walked, quote, walked the last mile at Sing Sing last night for a fruitless payroll holdup murder a year ago, end quote. He apparently ate two last meals, smoked four cigarettes and I'm sorry, four cigars and four packs of cigarettes and he was pronounced dead within five minutes. So yeah, that's kind of wild. And that the sources for that are the Brooklyn Eagle. So that was our connection to murder. Anyways. Proceed.
- [42:07]
Kevin Greenlee
See, I, I'm curious. Would it bother people? So I, I would certainly be curious.
- [42:11]
Anya Cain
With that email us post in the murder sheet. Facebook group shouted from the rooftops. I don't know, I'd be uncomfortable.
- [42:22]
Kevin Greenlee
See, if you shout it from the rooftops, then people will be moving away to get away from you.
- [42:28]
Anya Cain
Our listeners are charming. People are going to be moving to get to hang out with them. I don't know, I'm just. Whatever, just move on.
- [42:35]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, you're going down it.
- [42:36]
Anya Cain
So trying to suck up and then this is all going wrong.
- [42:41]
Kevin Greenlee
I think we have a couple of listeners in our neighborhood, don't we?
- [42:46]
Anya Cain
Do we?
- [42:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, haven't we been. Haven't been.
- [42:48]
Anya Cain
Oh yeah, yeah, I guess we do hi to them.
- [42:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Um, yeah, well, and hopefully they won't go on Facebook and reveal their addresses.
- [42:57]
Anya Cain
And hopefully we can all just make a pact not to get murdered. So it doesn't. Doesn't prompt some of these difficult conversations.
- [43:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Good, good thinking, Anya.
- [43:10]
Anya Cain
You're welcome.
- [43:12]
Kevin Greenlee
You always have an answer to a, to a problem.
- [43:15]
Anya Cain
You look out the window and I'm like shaking hands with our neighbors. You're gonna know what we're talking about.
- [43:22]
Kevin Greenlee
And you're making a business deal to not get murdered.
- [43:27]
Anya Cain
It's, it's free real estate advice.
- [43:31]
Kevin Greenlee
So you don't need to listen to Dave Ramsey. You've got.
- [43:33]
Anya Cain
Just listen to me giving big business advice. Oh, what the heck are we Even talking about. Let's just go. Move.
- [43:43]
Kevin Greenlee
So let's go to Louisiana. I just want to talk. Pardon me? Let's not go to Louisiana quite yet. Let's go to Vermont. I want to talk about a case involving a man named Sir Hat Gumruko. And I just want to spend a few minutes on this. It is interesting because Mr. Gumruko, or perhaps I should say doctor. Doctor. Dr. Gumruco or Ruku. I'm not good with names. And I should also say my source for this is sfgate.com and they also referenced the materials from VT Digger, which is an excellent local journalism site out of Vermont. Dr. Gumroku. So he has an interesting background. Prior to his medical career, he actually performed as a magician. He called himself Dr. No, wait, like.
- [44:51]
Anya Cain
The James Bond villain.
- [44:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And his act, all the information I have about his act is that it involved levitation and dancing with a cane.
- [45:05]
Anya Cain
That sounded cool.
- [45:07]
Kevin Greenlee
I dance with you. So that's a bit of an act.
- [45:09]
Anya Cain
You don't really dance with me that often.
- [45:11]
Kevin Greenlee
Dancing with a cane. So that's his background. So he doesn't really have a medical or an academic background.
- [45:20]
Anya Cain
Wait, then where's. So he's just calling himself Doctor?
- [45:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, let me quote from one of their press releases. Dr. Gumroku is one of those rare geniuses that is not bound by scientific discipline or dogma. So that means.
- [45:40]
Anya Cain
So he's a fraud.
- [45:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. All your book learning, all that stuff, you don't need that for him. He just figures things out on his own science.
- [45:51]
Anya Cain
It's holding me back.
- [45:54]
Kevin Greenlee
And one of the things he claims to have figured out is a cure for hiv, the virus that causes aids.
- [45:59]
Anya Cain
Are you kidding me?
- [46:01]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm not. And so he was going to swing this big business deal involving in some way monetizing the cure for aids.
- [46:13]
Anya Cain
Wow. Jonas Salk, he ain't.
- [46:15]
Kevin Greenlee
No. Well, certainly for many reasons. For many reasons. Some of which we haven't gotten around to because I haven't checked Wikipedia lately. I'm pretty sure Jonas Salk never had a man killed.
- [46:28]
Anya Cain
Nor was he a magician, presumably, but he was a hero, so let's move on.
- [46:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, this guy's not a hero.
- [46:35]
Anya Cain
No, I'm saying Jonas Salk was.
- [46:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. So this guy has this deal that he's trying to get to monetize the cure for aids. And a former business partner of his named Gregory Davis makes it clear that he may be bringing legal action against him because of fraud. And so Dr. Gamrouku, who's not bound by our conventional Thinking he says, I know how to get out of this. I'll have him killed.
- [47:05]
Anya Cain
Oh my God.
- [47:05]
Kevin Greenlee
And so he conspires with other men and they actually hire a hitman who's a 37 year old Montana man named Jerry Banks. He shows up at Davis's home in a vehicle fitted with flashing red and blue lights. He's pretending to be from law enforcement. He kidnaps Davis, shoots him and flees.
- [47:29]
Anya Cain
My God.
- [47:30]
Kevin Greenlee
And this all unravels because they discover emails connecting all these people and it's, it's a satisfying ending because everybody is currently being sentenced for their roles in this bizarre, bizarre affair.
- [47:46]
Anya Cain
That is bizarre. I mean, yeah, this is like you do feel. I mean, I feel like I remember the, the case we covered of the con man. We talked to the one, an author about this. It was this like guy who had all these different personalities and doing all, you know, like he was, he was. But he was also like this kind of fraudulent homeopath kind of doctor type of person that was very popular in the earlier part of the 20th century. And it was something that like, I think that kind of, those kind of conmen can get violent if they're cornered. This was when we interviewed author Jerry Jamison. The, the book was the Vanishing Act. A crashed airliner, fake death and backroom abortions. Very interesting book. But it kind of reminds me of that because you do have. Sometimes they, they're playing all these cons, they're doing all this quackery and then, oh, it's all gonna go, you know, go up. And so I don't even think you.
- [48:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Have to be an elaborate con man for that. I think a lot of the people out there, certainly some of the people we've covered, build up false versions of themselves that it is important to get other people to believe in. And some people do believe in it, but when people don't, they get upset or they get violent. I certainly see some of that when you look at the history of Fred Freeman, AKA Temujin Kinzu. Yeah, you build up these false things and when reality inevitably creeps in, you get very, very upset and violent.
- [49:24]
Anya Cain
Your ego, death can't handle it. Almost. Yeah.
- [49:29]
Kevin Greenlee
So shall we move on?
- [49:31]
Anya Cain
And you, I just want to say you do love magicians, except not the murderous ones. I love magicians, love a magic act. You love a sleight of hand.
- [49:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [49:43]
Anya Cain
You do.
- [49:44]
Kevin Greenlee
That's why I always want you wear big hats and love to have you walk around with a cane, put in a little show.
- [49:51]
Anya Cain
I do want. Just move on. Good Lord.
- [49:56]
Kevin Greenlee
So, L.A. my source for this is ABC News. Go, come. And I believe that the story I used was actually from the ap. And Anj, before I get into this one, I think a lot of things that lawyers discuss involve defining things. So even before I get into the facts of this particular story. Ms. Kane, I'm curious. How would you define. If we say a person has been exonerated of a crime, what does that mean?
- [50:26]
Anya Cain
Well, I think it means to me they've been, I guess, cleared.
- [50:32]
Kevin Greenlee
What does it mean to be cleared of a crime?
- [50:34]
Anya Cain
To me, it means that you've. It can be after you've been convicted. So it's not cleared. Almost implies that, like, oh, we looked into this possibility the person was involved, and U.S. detectives cleared it. So we. We don't think he was involved. Exonerated can mean that things come out later, it turns out that prove that they're not guilty of a crime or that someone else was guilty. So to me, it's like. Like if. If, for instance, like hypothetical, someone is raped and murdered and someone is convicted for that based on some evidence, and then it turns out the DNA actually matches a known serial rapist and serial killer, then. And they have no connection to the person who was convicted, then I feel like the convict could be exonerated by that evidence. And perhaps they. Perhaps they overturned the conviction, perhaps the prosecution moves to have them released and things like that happen. So there's like some kind of formal process. A conviction is reversed, essentially. I think exoneration tends to. My association with. It tends to be after post conviction. It's not before. Before you'd be cleared after you'd be exonerated.
- [51:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay, so keep your.
- [51:48]
Anya Cain
That's just my vibe.
- [51:49]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm not a lawyer. Well, keep that framework in mind and we'll see if. How it applies to what I'm about to share. I'm about to share the story of Calvin Duncan, who is currently running for clerk of criminal court in New Orleans, Louisiana. He years ago was convicted of murder and he spent a lot of time in prison teaching himself law.
- [52:20]
Anya Cain
Oh, okay. That's pretty common.
- [52:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. He ultimately, the courts took a look at his case. A judge was presented with some evidence of his innocence. The judge vacated his conviction under a legal statute of factual innocence, and the charges against him ended up being dismissed. Does that sound like an exoneration to you?
- [52:56]
Anya Cain
Charges can be dismissed because they don't feel like the case will hold up once more. Right.
- [53:02]
Kevin Greenlee
The judge vacated the conviction. Factual innocence, I guess. Yeah. To me, that's Pretty clearly, I'd say, so exonerated. And so he's saying, I'm exonerated. I don't want other people to go through what I went through. And then one of his political rivals says, ah, ah, ah, you weren't exonerated because at one point he took a guilty plea in order to get out of prison. In 2011, there was a plea deal for manslaughter and armed robbery. Of course, when you take a plea deal, that means you are admitting guilt. So does the fact that he took that deal, does that mean he's not considered exonerated in your mind, even though the charges were dismissed in the conviction vacated? That's what his opponents say.
- [53:53]
Anya Cain
Well, to me, like, you can, I mean, I could certainly see it raising eyebrows, but I could envision scenarios where someone wrongly confesses to a crime and then later on says, no, I actually didn't do it, and then gets exonerated. So I, I could, to me, that's more in line with that, where it's like, I could see why that would make people think he was guilty at the time. But if there's evidence the contrary that, you know, I, I don't necessarily think that means someone can't be exonerated, but it can also, I can understand why people would.
- [54:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I, I, I tend to think, I mean, we live in the real world. Sometimes people will take a deal to get out of prison just because they want to get out of prison, even if they are, in fact innocent. And so to me, the fact that the charges, the conviction was vacated and the charges dismissed, that, to me is the telling point. And so I'm not even getting into the other details, if any, about who should be clerk of the criminal courts. I'm just saying in my mind, he has been exonerated. And it feels like these charges suggesting otherwise by his opponents are not entirely fair. What do you think?
- [55:13]
Anya Cain
To me, there's been so much bunk as far as, like, you know, oh, everyone's wrongfully convicted, everyone, you know, blah, blah, blah. So I would, I think, like looking at that, doing what we did in the Kenzu case and looking at the original filings, and it's like, was that judge reasonable to let you out? I think that's fodder, but I don't think it's fought. I think it seems like really semantics kind of to be quibbling about, oh, he's technically not exonerated, or he is exonerated. It, I think he's exonerated based on what you said, you know, That's a judge saying, I think he's actually innocent, and I'm overturning this. That's kind of meets whatever definition I was thinking of. So, yeah, I think that that seems more semantics. And again, like, if there's something factual there where they're saying, no, we actually think he murdered this guy, you know, have at it, as far as I'm concerned, because there's certainly been a lot of innocence fraud over the years. But it should be about the facts. It shouldn't be about, like, kind of quibbling over language when, frankly, the language seems to support what he's saying. Yeah, I know. I mean, we've talked to family members of victims who run into situations where they feel like someone has not been exonerated, where they feel like, this isn't an exoneration. This person, they just, you know, he got out of prison and there's been dispute, and they're listed as exonerated anyway. And this can be very frustrating for family members of victims because they're like, this isn't even an exoneration, but you have to look at the facts. It has to be fact by, you know, case by case, fact by fact. And, you know, I think. I don't know. I think it kind of. I'll be curious to see how it affects. I mean, I guess it's like. It's also like. I mean, he's probably running on the platform. Hey, I was in prison, and I want to help the system. So it's not like he's, like, trying to hide that aspect of.
- [57:14]
Kevin Greenlee
He says, I don't want to happen to other people what happened to me. He's certainly already in his career. He's had an impact on the legal system. He was involved in a movement that ultimately led to a Supreme Court decision overturning a practice in Louisiana. Up until that time, it wasn't necessary for a jury verdict to be unanimous, and he helped change that, and that was something that goes back to the Jim Crow era. So he's. He's making positive changes in the legal system.
- [57:51]
Anya Cain
What I'm reading here is that there's generally no legal standard that's like, this is the definition of exoneration, which. Which does seem to make it a little bit vague, and. And there might be different definitions within that, but.
- [58:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, yeah, but I think if a judge says you're factually innocent and all charges against you are dropped, I think you've been exonerated.
- [58:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I. I've. I've. Again, I've grown so weary about some of this innocence fraud that I would want to look at, at the, at, at everything before I would, like, come down on something like that. But I think in this case, it just seems to be more political mudslinging than anything else.
- [58:35]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [58:36]
Anya Cain
You know, like, I mean, if a judge says you're innocent, I think you can call yourself exonerated. I think that's within the definition. Whether or not that should have happened, we're not even commenting on. But as far as, like, how you should be publicly considered, I think exonerated is the word that comes to mind.
- [58:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Now. I guess we should wrap up. I know you're anxious to start going door to door striking deals with people not to get murdered. But before we do that, I believe there is some promotional announcements to be followed by an anecdote featuring young Anya Cain.
- [59:13]
Anya Cain
Why did you start doing this decades.
- [59:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Before you even knew me?
- [59:17]
Anya Cain
So today is, what is it even? It today is The, I guess the 10th of October, 101010101010 wins.
- [59:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Saturday 1010 WCSI.
- [59:30]
Anya Cain
Saturday, October 11th. So tomorrow we're going to be at the Louisville Book Festival in Louisville, Kentucky. And we're really excited for that. It's going to be super cool. And I think we're going to be doing a talk for people at 3pm you think? No, we are. I mean, we are.
- [59:51]
Kevin Greenlee
You've got a hunch.
- [59:53]
Anya Cain
So we're really excited about this. It's going to be super cool to meet some of you guys. We'll have a table. It's going to be awesome. And then Saturday, the following Saturday, October 18th, we're going to be doing a book signing at the Barnes and Noble in Carmel, Indiana. From noon to 4pm, swing by, get a book, get it signed.
- [60:11]
Kevin Greenlee
And I should say, when you say Carmel, Indiana, that is the correct pronunciation because sometimes people think, oh, it should be Carmel. And earlier you were telling a very serious story involving Versailles, Indiana. And I was imagining, oh, there's probably people out there saying, oh, Anya's mispronouncing it. It's actually Versailles. But no, Indiana has some unique ways of pronouncing some of our local towns. It is Versailles and it is Carmel as opposed to Carmel.
- [60:40]
Anya Cain
Sunday, October 26th, we're going to be going to the Bloomington Book Festival and we're doing a moderated talk at 1pm so that's gonna be super cool. And Saturday, November, and there's gonna be all their cool people. Like the awesome guy from Reading Rainbow is like inspiring kids to read in Kentucky. It's going to be In Louisville.
- [60:57]
Kevin Greenlee
He's not going to be in Bloomington.
- [60:58]
Anya Cain
And Bloomington, Michael Kita is going to be there. That's going to be super cool.
- [61:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Everybody loves Michael Kurita.
- [61:03]
Anya Cain
He's awesome. We've interviewed him on the show. He's a thriller and mystery writer. Super cool guy. And also like worked as a teen sleuth, which is like he was working for a private investigator when he was a teenager.
- [61:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Is John Green going to be there?
- [61:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah. So some cool authors are going to be there and us. And Saturday, November 1, 2025, we're going to be signing books at the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana from 1:00pm to 4:00pm Again, come swing by, say hi to us, keep us company, please. And again, like it. Christmas is coming up. So if you know of any true crime fans in your life who might want a book, this is a good time to get it signed. Saturday, November 4, 2025 in Zionsville, Indiana. We're going to do a book talk and signing at the Curious squirrel bookshop from 6pm to 8pm and that is in Zionsville, Indiana. Cannot wait for these events. Cannot wait to meet some of you guys. You.
- [61:55]
Kevin Greenlee
I can't wait to meet all of you.
- [61:57]
Anya Cain
Just some of you. The others know who you are. No, I'm just kidding. I, I, I think it's gonna be delightful. And if you want us for an interview, if you're in the news media, if you're in New Media, murdersheetmail.com or if you have an event in mind, we're doing some zoom events too, so that can be worked out.
- [62:14]
Kevin Greenlee
So I'm curious, I can't wait to meet young Anya Cain. Cause I'm curious, is, was she kind of similar to how she is now? Was she different? I want to know. I demand answers. I think it's time for an Anya anecdote.
- [62:29]
Anya Cain
Okay. Yeah. So, okay. So I, this is, I think this just kind of says something about me as a person, but also like, I don't know, kids have personalities and then they become adults and like they kind of often stay the same somewhat. So this just says something about me. I think I was, and I vaguely recall this, but I also was filled in also by my mom who thought it was very funny and I think witnessed it.
- [62:56]
Kevin Greenlee
I've seen the pictures.
- [62:57]
Anya Cain
There's photographic evidence of this happening. So I was probably like about 4 years old, I want to say. And my younger sister was two years old and we were with my parents at their friends had had a young son and it was like his like Maybe first birthday party. And so we're at their house and they. Hi. I guess they hired a woman to wear a Winnie the Pooh kind of costume. Like you know how you see at Disney World, but like, probably less nice than that. But so they have this Winnie the Pooh impersonator there and apparently, and I kind of do vaguely remember this, I got really, I got really suspicious of this Winnie the Pooh person. And apparently I was telling people I don't think that's the real Winnie the Pooh. I was, I guess I got so suspicious first of all, like, I mean, I guess I was 4, so I don't know, like I was correct, it's not the real Winnie the Pooh, but.
- [64:00]
Kevin Greenlee
I was, there is no real Winnie the Pooh.
- [64:01]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I guess I was concerned that this was like fraud, but I was like, I guess I was right in one sense. But I imagine I probably thought there was a real Winnie the Pooh and this person had stolen their identity. And I, I went up to them and there's again, there's pictures of this and apparently I just start fucking grilling this person. Who do you know here? Do you know the birthday boy? Like, you know, like almost like what's the evidence that you're the true Winnie the Pooh? And there's pictures of me like wildly kind of gesticulating, kind of like pointing and the, and you can see the woman in the bear costume kind of has her hands up like woken.
- [64:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Before.
- [64:48]
Anya Cain
My, before my mom intervened. But she was kind of had her hands full because my other sister, my sister was busy trying to steal the birthday boys presents. So she was trying to prevent that. So then I'm running over and interrogating this Winnie the Pooh impersonator like she's committed a crime. So I joked to Kevin that I guess I was, I was an early adopter of the Reid technique on this poor woman who was just trying to work a children's birthday party and then is subjected to a kind of very suspicious and obstinate interrogation by a 4 year old me who's just sort of like, I don't believe you're the real Winnie the Pooh. Like, what did you do with him? Like, I, I was a strange child. It was weird. Like I was very quiet. Like I could be very quiet. I think at that age I was a lot more, you know, I was, I was a little more outgoing. So I was just like, you know, I'm gonna fucking get the truth here.
- [65:36]
Kevin Greenlee
You're a bulldog.
- [65:38]
Anya Cain
I knew something was Wrong. But yeah, that's my story. But there are pictures. I just think it's so funny because you can, you can, you can see in them.
- [65:46]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm just like, I've seen that same look on your face. It's in these pictures. You look very angry. You're wagging your finger.
- [65:55]
Anya Cain
Oh man. So sorry. To that person. I don't, I wasn't like freaking out, but I was like very annoyed about it. Anyways, that's my, that's my stupid anecdote.
- [66:09]
Kevin Greenlee
My closest version to that is like when I'm like 6 years old or so, there's something in the newspaper that says you can go somewhere and get some free comic books from Spider man and Captain America. And by the way, the person who is dressed as Captain America giving out comic books, I later learn is Jonathan Frakes, who of course is Riker on Star the Next Generation. Of course, that shows years in the future because I'm very, very old. So I go there thinking, okay, I'm five, I'm six, I'm going to get a couple of free comic books. You can't go wrong. And I go there and there's this guy in a dopey Captain America outfit and there's a guy in an even worse ill fitting Spider man outfit. And you know, a lot of these, these, these comic book characters, costumes look really good or cool on the comic book page, but when they were translated, you see a guy just wearing this spider mask and this ill fitting outfit. It's not majestic at all. It just kind of makes you feel foolish for, for buying the things. Of course I wasn't buying them. They give them to me and then to my horror, to my horror, they grab black Sharpies and they scrawl on the front cover of the book Captain America in big letters all over the COVID and then Spider man in big letters all over the COVID And even though I'm a child, I know that just destroyed the collectibility of these things.
- [67:42]
Anya Cain
You were always a collector.
- [67:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, I always have that mindset. So I'm very upset and very disappointed. And a couple of weeks later, I happen to be talking about the incident with an older child who I believe is either a freshman in high school or in middle school. And he says, oh, that's really cool. Those comics are worth a lot more since Captain America and Spider man signed them. And I remember my, my first thought was, what did you, you're older than me, sir, don't you know? And then, then I said, do you want to buy them? So that that, that's my closest friend.
- [68:26]
Anya Cain
Did you make a buck off of them?
- [68:28]
Kevin Greenlee
I made a pretty penny by taking advantage of this child. But he was older than me.
- [68:33]
Anya Cain
I mean, you were like seven, so.
- [68:35]
Kevin Greenlee
I was like five, six.
- [68:38]
Anya Cain
So that was. You were, you were conning the older kids to get your, you know, fake.
- [68:42]
Kevin Greenlee
I mean, did he really think Captain America. First of all, he doesn't exist. These are fictional characters. And if they do exist, are they going on a cross country tour giving out comic books to strange children?
- [68:52]
Anya Cain
Don't you think they'd come to the Athens of the Prairies if they're going anywhere?
- [68:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, this did happen in Columbus, Indiana. Athens of the Prairie.
- [69:00]
Anya Cain
That says something about our personalities. Because I think I, I was more like getting obsessed with the idea that this wasn't Winnie the Pooh walls and miss Missing that Winnie the Pooh is a fictional character. Whereas you were just like, you were just gaming the system right there.
- [69:13]
Kevin Greenlee
I almost just threw them away.
- [69:15]
Anya Cain
Then you made a buck, so, you know, that works.
- [69:18]
Kevin Greenlee
And then years later, I was, I was able to add an unsigned copy of the Captain America comic book back to my collection because it was by the great Jack Kirby.
- [69:26]
Anya Cain
You were very serious as a child. You, you, you, you were, you were thinking you had a, you had a impressive sense of critical thinking at a pretty young age, whereas I did not. I had to develop that later on.
- [69:38]
Kevin Greenlee
But I don't think you would have thought, oh, this guy in this dopey Spider Man Underoos situation. This is the real Spider Man. How majestic. I can imagine him.
- [69:49]
Anya Cain
I probably wouldn't have paid that much attention. I would have probably just been like, oh, Spider Man. I probably wouldn't have been thinking it. Okay, is this the real Spider Man? I think there was something about this woman in the bear outfit that just set me off where I was like, that can't be real. So I think most of the time I was just in kind of La la land of like, oh, imagination, you know? So I don't, I don't think, I don't know how. I probably would have been like, oh, maybe I probably would have thought it was valuable too. Honestly, knowing me at that age.
- [70:16]
Kevin Greenlee
The la la land of imagination.
- [70:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that's where I pretty much lived.
- [70:22]
Kevin Greenlee
That's like your children's podcast. Join Anya in lala, the Land of imagination. And each week you tell a little fairy tale.
- [70:30]
Anya Cain
That sounds terrible, but thanks. You're always pitching new podcast ideas as if we don't have enough to do this. All right, well, thanks everyone. For listening and just appreciate you dealing with all our antics. Want to say goodbye?
- [70:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Sure. All right.
- [70:47]
Anya Cain
Bye bye.
- [70:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [71:08]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [71:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [71:43]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Not great with finances? That's okay. Experian is your big financial friend. Explore credit card offers, some labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. See experian.com for details. Applying for no Ding Declined cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. 2025 Experian Experian.