The Cheat Sheet: Mentality and Memorabilia

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Mentality and Memorabilia"

Release Date: August 8, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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1. Addressing Online Harassment and Safety Concerns

Timestamp: [03:09] – [08:34]

In this episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee begin by addressing recent harassment from an individual named Temujin Kinzu (formerly Fred Freeman). Kevin emphasizes the severity of Kinzu's actions, stating:

"Our inbox is full of communications from people who have been abused and who find this sort of situation to be very triggering and who feel unsafe about participating in those kinds of discussions." ([04:40])

The hosts clarify their stance against engaging with individuals who threaten or harass, particularly highlighting the alarming behavior of Kinzu and his wife, who have been doxing and intimidating their own daughter. Áine adds:

"We're not backing down here, and we stand by our reporting and they can lie about us all they want. It doesn't really change the bare facts of the situation, which is people are seeing this for what it is." ([06:25])

The segment underscores the podcast's commitment to maintaining journalistic integrity and protecting their audience from harmful interactions.

2. Update on the Kayla Farmer Murder Case

Timestamp: [14:49] – [19:10]

Áine provides an update on the tragic 2023 case involving the murder of Kayla Farmer by her estranged husband, Joshua Farmer, in Fishers, Indiana. Emphasizing the severity of domestic abuse, she notes:

"This is just a quick note on a case we covered previously... domestic violence can escalate, the abuse can escalate to the point of murder." ([16:37])

Áine highlights newly received body cam footage that reveals the ambush at a gas station, where Joshua Farmer took Kayla's life. The discussion serves as a poignant reminder of the dangers of unchecked domestic abuse.

3. Serial Killer Investigation: Jesse Lee Calhoun

Timestamp: [20:03] – [21:22]

Kevin shifts the conversation to a concerning serial killer case in Oregon involving Jesse Lee Calhoun, a 39-year-old charged with multiple murders, including that of Kristen Smith. He explains:

"He is being investigated for involvement in yet another murder. So this man sounds like a serial killer." ([20:08])

The hosts express frustration over the lack of detailed evidence released by law enforcement and commend the resilience of the victims' families, particularly Diana Allen, who remains patient and respectful of the legal process despite the anguish.

4. Alabama's Felony Murder Law and the Lakeith Smith Case

Timestamp: [26:32] – [43:05]

A significant portion of the episode delves into the controversial application of Alabama's felony murder law through the Lakeith Smith case. Kevin recounts the 2015 incident where Smith, then 15, was involved in a burglary that led to the death of Adante Washington, a 16-year-old who was fatally shot by police during the intrusion.

"The boys were running out of the house when the cops arrived. And in the confusion, my son was shot three times in the back by the police and pronounced deceased at the scene." ([40:00])

Áine and Kevin critique the felony murder charges leveled against Smith and his accomplices, arguing that applying murder charges to acts committed during a felony, especially when the resultant death is by law enforcement in self-defense, is unjust. They draw parallels to a past case they covered involving Redline, where felony murder charges were overturned.

Kevin reflects:

"It's really hard for me to understand how felony murder is being applied here... I don't see how it's a murder if it's a justifiable homicide by police." ([36:32])

The discussion highlights systemic biases and the disproportionate impact of such laws on young Black men, calling for legal reforms to ensure fairer treatment.

5. Upcoming Book Release and Event Announcements

Timestamp: [57:50] – [67:19]

Áine and Kevin announce their collaboratively authored book, A Shadow of the Bridge, set to release on August 26th. They discuss plans for book signings, including a notable event in Delphi at the Biscuits Shop, and promotions for their upcoming appearance at Denver's CrimeCon.

"If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, consider doing Code MurderSheet, because you'll get 10% off your standard badge." ([59:36])

The hosts invite listeners to join their Patreon and other support platforms, emphasizing community engagement and upcoming live events.

6. Lighthearted Moments and Community Engagement

Timestamp: [43:02] – [80:54]

Towards the latter part of the episode, the hosts share humorous anecdotes about their personal lives, such as Kevin earning a letter in high school through participation in the varsity AV Club, and awkward experiences at book signings. They also promote merchandise like shirts and mugs from their online shop, engaging listeners with relatable and entertaining conversations.

"But if you do, you can get it from us, but not John Irving..." ([75:03])

These segments provide a balance to the heavy true crime discussions, showcasing the hosts' personalities and fostering a deeper connection with their audience.

7. Final Thoughts on Personal Safety

Timestamp: [80:54] – [81:26]

The episode concludes with Kevin and Áine discussing the importance of home security, especially given the emotional and sometimes threatening nature of true crime reporting. They endorse Simplisafe as their trusted security system provider, highlighting its reliability and comprehensive protection features.

"With Simplisafe, we're able to keep the Murder Sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure." ([81:12])

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Key Takeaways:

• Commitment to Integrity: Murder Sheet stands firm against harassment and continues to deliver in-depth true crime reporting despite external threats.

• Critical Legal Analysis: The podcast critically examines the application of felony murder laws, advocating for legal reforms to prevent miscarriages of justice.

• Community and Engagement: Through book releases, event participations, and engaging discussions, Murder Sheet fosters a strong connection with its audience.

• Personal Touch: The hosts balance serious content with personal stories and humor, making the podcast both informative and relatable.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee: "The idea of intimidating people into silence enrages me." ([07:35])
• Áine Cain: "Domestic violence can escalate, the abuse can escalate to the point of murder." ([16:37])
• Kevin Greenlee: "I don't see how it's a murder if it's a justifiable homicide by police." ([36:32])
• Áine Cain: "This is something that's gonna give the facts and not really varnish the truth here." ([66:05])

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For more detailed discussions and updates on these cases, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode of Murder Sheet.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

So before we start the show proper, I feel like we should very, very briefly address the topic we discussed at the very beginning of last week's episode, which is namely the fact that this individual, Temujin Kinzu, formerly known as Fred Freeman, has begun to go into online forums and attack and harass people. He certainly has been lying about us, but more importantly, he has also been harassing and doxing his own daughter. And this is something that I said last week. I didn't feel like I was going out on a limb. I said this is bad, and I had no idea that in some quarters that would be viewed as controversial. And so this has become a big issue, at least among some people. I don't understand why it is a big issue. I think there are certain lines that once they are crossed, you write a person off and say, this is not a person I think is worth having a conversation with if you engage, engage in behaviors that make people feel unsafe. Our inbox is full of communications from people who have been abused and who find this sort of situation to be very triggering and who feel unsafe about participating in those kinds of discussions. So I just want to say our position on this has not changed.

[Anya Cain]

Nope.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also I further want to say that yes, Mr. Kinzu and also his wife, Mrs. Kinzu, have been lying about us. I think this is an attempt to try to intimidate us into stopping covering them. There's indications they go, oh, we're going to sue them. I have no idea.

[Anya Cain]

Cover what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I have no idea what they think they can sue them.

[Anya Cain]

What's the cause of action?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have no idea what they think they can sue us for. But this is what just as how Mr. Kinzu's pattern throughout his entire life has been to abuse people and intimidate them into silence, he has apparently succeeded in doing that in some corners of the Internet. He is not going to succeed with us. We've already said we're not going to cover the case every week, but we're not done covering the case. I think it is fair to say that we are getting a fire hose of information right now about this man and his life. We're also getting information about Scott Macklem, who is actually, despite what Team Kinzu tries to claim, Scott Macklem was a great young man. And it's very upsetting that certain elements of the podcast wing of Team Kinzu really is trying to defend the idea of let's tear down Scott Macklemore. We're getting a lot of information. We are going to cover it all in the due course of time.

[Anya Cain]

That's right. And also, you know, we're not backing down here, and we stand by our reporting and they can lie about us all they want. It doesn't really change the bare facts of the situation, which is people are seeing this for what it is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm sorry I sound angry, and that's probably because I am angry.

[Anya Cain]

You're very angry. I know you are, but let's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's move on.

[Anya Cain]

I'm supposed to be the angry one. You're supposed to be the calm one. So the fact that they've pissed you off this much is, I think, pretty interesting. You know, but I. I think we just. We don't like bullies here. You know, if the. If these people want to talk to us, they have. They have our. They have our contact information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I reached out to them. We reached out to them.

[Anya Cain]

They can use their words like adults and say their side of the story. And we told them we were interested in getting that, but they want to have their own pity party here because they're losing control of the narrative around this case. It's not because we're doing anything insane. We're just putting out actual information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And just the idea of intimidating people into silence enrages me. And the idea that they are abusing and harassing Mr. Kinzu's daughter Lena, who was so brave and so articulate when she came on our program, the fact that that is happening and they are still welcome in some quarters, and some people say, oh, yeah, let's support them. And in the course of supporting them, let's tear down the man Mr. Kinzu killed.

[Anya Cain]

If that sounds like you, you're in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. I think. I think that's true. I think that's true. And I. I've made that position clear privately to some people as well.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. You made it very clear. I'm. This is a situation where I just want to note, like, people who think he's innocent. There's nothing wrong with that. Just, I mean, I think people who think he's innocent and people who think he's guilty, there can be not a lot of daylight between that, because some people might just say, well, listen, he's done a lot of bad stuff. I think there's no, I wouldn't feel comfortable voting for guilty in a verdict, you know, if I was on the jury, because I just don't think there's enough evidence. That's fine. I mean, I, I, I don't agree with that at all, but I, I do understand it, and I have a lot of respect for some people with that position. There's nothing wrong with that. I think what we're seeing now is. What we're seeing now is basically the separation of people who think his behavior towards people online is okay versus people who don't. And I think the people who don't think it's okay fall into the vast majority, from what we've seen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I should make that clear. The vast majority. The vast, vast, vast majority of people who have weighed in on this, who weighed in a particular way, and that is on the side against Mr. Kinzu being able to abuse people with impunity. But I guess there's really nothing more to say.

[Anya Cain]

Nope. So we're going to another one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's put Mr. Kinzu on the other side of the tracks and let's hop on the cane train. Let's do so with enthusiasm and vigor. I know we're recording at 11:12am, but you're wide awake.

[Anya Cain]

I'm wide awake for once.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we're recording on Wednesday. So who knows if in the next two days before you hear there's some crazy things happen, even in the cases we cover. Who knows? But we have to record early because we're taking a mysterious secret trip out of town.

[Anya Cain]

You were so hyper today. I love it. I love it. So we are. I'm awake, even though we stayed up very late watching a terrible docu series the other night.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was like two days ago.

[Anya Cain]

That was like two days ago. But I usually take a while to recover. So the fact that I'm peppy. You're completely hyper. Everything's great. I'm so excited.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But this mysterious secret trip is not what you think.

[Anya Cain]

It's not on the cane train either. Or is it, I don't know, cane drained in our minds or metaphorically. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we can't tell you about it now, but we'll tell you about it later. It's not what you think. Although some of you may be thinking, who knows?

[Anya Cain]

They're pretty smart. I think they. Some of them might have figured it out, but.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you think some people sleuthed it.

[Anya Cain]

They sleuthed it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some of these Internet sleuths, we got.

[Anya Cain]

Sleuthed by our own audience. How embarrassing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've been hoisted upon our own pre tard. Everybody knows what this mysterious trip is about, and they're just bored by it.

[Anya Cain]

They're just rolling their eyes right now. I mean, as I'm sure is often the reaction to listening to our show, especially the cheat sheet. I would say that. So I. I do want to say. I. I do need to bring something up here because this is important. I saw it in our Facebook group. Somebody went on vacation in Hawaii. And thank you so much to this person for sharing this. They mentioned they were actually on the cane train, but it was actually the sugar cane train, so. K. No, not K. C. I don't even know how to spell C. A warning on. Yeah, I'm folks. C, A, N, E train. I was like, wow, someone ripped off my branding. Meanwhile, I. I'm sure that cane train has existed for, like, centuries in Hawaii for many years. But of course, I was all hostile, like, oh, my God, they stole it. Even though I don't even want. You're the one who made it up, so I don't know why I'm getting offended on your map. I want to go there and just be like, yes, I ride for free. And they'd be like, please, ma', am, please, like, leave. Or before we call the police, as.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Long as we're already derailed.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, it's derailed. The cane trains off the tracks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's something else I want to mention.

[Anya Cain]

List of grievances this morning.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is just the opposite of a grievance. We love our listeners. All we ask of our listeners is just listen. Because we're so flattered and honored that you give us some of your time. Because think about it. Really, the most valuable resource any of us have is our time. And the fact that you give us some of your time, that is an incredible honor, and it is something that means the world to us. Is that fair to say, Anya?

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, first of all, I apologize for wasting some of it, but that's all you need to do. Some listeners, you don't need to do this. Some send us gifts.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that was. Yeah, that was that is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You don't have to do that. You don't have to do that.

[Anya Cain]

No, actually, I demand homage. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And a lot of the people who send gifts is like, oh, here's chocolate or something, which is an entirely Anya centric gift, because I don't like.

[Anya Cain]

Those people are my favorites. Thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because I can't do that. I can't eat chocolate.

[Anya Cain]

You're not allergic. You just don't like chocolate. That's very suspicious to a lot of people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm gonna say, if you are going to send us a gift and you don't have to, feel free to make it a Kevin centric gift.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone sent us.

[Anya Cain]

What a nice husband.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone sent us a box of 11 bags of old Bay Goldfish crackers. I don't know if I'm allowed to say their name, but thank you.

[Anya Cain]

That was a really sweet gesture, and Kevin really appreciated it, and we were not expecting that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it was kind of in the midst of all that. Temujin Kinzu abusing women online.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. We were like, what's this lunatic doing next? Oh, we gotta. Let's look at what this box is. And then it was all these goldfish. And we're like, that's so nice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So thank you for that.

[Anya Cain]

It was really sweet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's literally eating the goldfinch crackers gives the bad taste of other things out of your mouth. And so hopefully it's gotten the bad taste of Kim Jong Kinzu's abuse out of our mouths and we can proceed with this episode. Anya, hit the intro button, please.

[Anya Cain]

Sure. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder sheet, and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The cheat sheet mentality and memorabilia. Sam.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You said you had some opening remarks to make.

[Anya Cain]

Well, this is just a note, and thank you so much to the person who sent us this. Like, seriously, you're the best. I didn't know this development had taken place. So this is just a quick note on a case we covered previously. In 2023, Kayla Farmer was murdered by her estranged husband, Joshua Farmer. Very tragic case. She was the mother of three children, and he ultimately, you know, he ambushed her at a gas. A gas station in Fishers, Indiana, which is a city in Hamilton county to the north of Indianapolis. Just a really horrible case. And he eventually pled guilty Seemingly, you know, I think the death penalty was on the table. So I think there was a deal ultimately made where he pled guilty. And, you know, that was Hamilton county prosecutor Greg Garrison on that one. But what this person sent us recently was the body cam footage from this horrible case where this man again ambushed his estranged wife at this gas station. So I'm including that. That is a case that I think underscores the real tragedy and severity of domestic abuse. There had been domestic abuse. There was a sort of case pending around that that Kayla was due to testify against Joshua at and unfortunately he kills her. And so there was an element of sort of killing a witness in this situation. And I just hope things like this underscored that domestic violence can escalate, the abuse can escalate to the point of murder. And people need to be very watchful and we need to take the scourge of our society very seriously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very well said.

[Anya Cain]

So, yeah, that's one. I think we're going to one of your cases next.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, I wanted to talk about a case out of Oregon sources for this is ABC News. And this just strikes me because we are so inundated with terrible crimes and terrible things that happen. And this is a name I hadn't heard yet. This man's name who I'll be discussing is a gentleman, not a gentleman, I guess an individual named Jesse Lee Calhoun, a 39 year old. Last year he was charged with three murders. Charity Lynn Perry, Bridget Webster and Joanna Speaks. Police didn't indicate what evidence they had to tie him to those murders which had taken place the previous year, but they charged him with them. And this came up relevant again because just this last week he was charged with another murder. In this case, it was the murder of a 22 year old named Kristen Smith and he is being investigated for involvement in yet another murder. So this man sounds like a serial killer. Because the investigation is ongoing, the law enforcement investigators have not released a great deal of evidence about what ties this man to these crimes. One thing that really struck me is the mother of one of the victims, a woman named Diana Allen, indicated that it was frustrating for them not to have the answers. But she said that she had a lot of respect for the district attorney. She is quoted as saying, even though they wouldn't give me the answers, I knew they had answers. And that is a very patient woman who clearly understands how the process works. Because in situations like this it is very frustrating. It's frustrating for me. I want to know what happened. I want to know what evidence they had tying this man to these murders. But imagine how much more troublesome and frustrating it would be if the murdered person is someone you loved and cared about and you weren't getting those answers. So the fact that she is still patient with the process and respectful of the process, I think that speaks very well of her.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's speaks incredibly well of her. And understandably a lot of families do get frustrated in many ways. The system is built to protect defendants rights and protect the overall sort of sanctity of a trial versus get immediate answers, get the immediate gratification of knowing everything. And you know, when, when it's your baby, you want to know everything. So that anger and frustration is very human and very palpable and very understandable. And we shouldn't judge people for, you know, having that reaction. But I think the more people can understand about the process and why some of this is necessary, the more they can cope with it. Right. And it sounds like this woman is doing a wonderful job and showing a lot of grace. And you know, I hope, I pray that these families get justice. So this guy's a serial killer basically, or at least.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Alleged accused serial killer. At this point they had not proven a case against him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I imagine that as his case goes to trial, presuming he doesn't plead out, that we will get more and more information and perhaps we will become more and more familiar with his name.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you mentioned plead out at that point if the case was closed, you could also possibly get some more information. But it's, it's interesting if he is a. He is. If this is a serial killer, kind of a classic serial killer situation. It, you know, I, I don't know. That's always interesting that sometimes it feels like we don't hear as much about serial killers anymore. Right. Like there's like the big cases from the past and it's not something that you necessarily see all the time anymore. You see a lot of speculation about serial killers, but just doesn't seem sometimes like that's happening as much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Shall I talk about a situation in Maryland?

[Anya Cain]

Please do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is, as I say, it's a situation in Maryland. My source for this is none other than the Washington Post. And this is a case that goes all the way back to 2014. It involves a woman named Catherine Hoggle, who was the last person to be seen with her two youngest children back then. And back then police strongly suspected her for a variety of reasons. She was the last person seen with them. They disappeared. They are sadly presumed dead just hours, hours after they disappeared. When Hagel was at a treatment program, she said, I just strangled my kids and then made a choking motion. But then she indicated that she was joking. She has a long history of mental illness. She also at one point drew a picture of her children in a trash can. A lot of reasons to really look at her. But because of her history of mental illness, it wasn't clear if she would be competent to stand trial. By competent to stand trial, Anya, as you know, Anya was just talking about defendants rights. We want a defendant to have the right to participate in their trial. That means they need to be in a mental state where they understand the charges against them and are able to assist their lawyers in preparing a defense of those charges. Because the idea is if they are not in such a mental state and not able to assist their attorneys in some way, that's not fair to them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I mean, and that ultimately is fundamentally, the system is about making it fair for people. Right. Protecting people's individual rights under our Constitution.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So she was put basically hospitalized for the better part of a decade. She a couple of times, she escaped from the hospital. A month or so ago, she was released from the hospital. Her attorney said she was doing better. And now that she is doing better, the charges against her have been filed for the deaths of these two children.

[Anya Cain]

What's the difference between that and like an insanity defense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So an insanity defense is essentially if you don't even understand the difference between right and wrong, if you are so unwell that the classic example would be if, God forbid. Anya imagines. Imagine that I am an alien come to take over the earth, and when she looks at me, she sees an alien and she murders me.

[Anya Cain]

Wow, I thought you were gonna go with like a fun serial example. Geez, it's getting dark in here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if she in her mind honestly believes that I am an alien, she doesn't understand that she's done Something wrong. She doesn't understand that she's even committed a crime. She doesn't have an understanding of it. And so because of that, well, maybe she is not someone who should be released and be amongst the general public, but maybe she should be handled differently than a person who like plots to kill someone, who kills someone deliberately. So that would be different from if Anya is just so mentally unwell she doesn't even understand the concept of murder or things like that.

[Anya Cain]

I'll be curious to learn more. If this woman, why she had custody of her children or what happened with that or were there red flags or is this somebody who really didn't demonstrate, even despite a mental illness or documented mental health history, didn't demonstrate a ton of red flags prior to this or if this was a failure on somebody's part or. I don't know, just it's hard to know on the surface, you know, and obviously in many situations system is understandably biased towards helping parents keep their children as long as it's safe. And maybe it didn't look unsafe until it was too late, but it sounds like the case against her is pretty, pretty bad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Pretty bad, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So that's all you wanted to say on that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so I'll do for my first case. This is a listener recommendation. Thank you so much for this person. I had not heard about this case at all and it's one I am like shocked by, honestly. So one source for this is WSFA and the other one is the Elmore Autoga News and also Alabama Daily News. So this situation kind of goes back a number of years and involves the death of Adante Washington. So this occurred in 2015 and essentially what you had was a Dante Washington who was 16 and you know, a group of other young kids, including Lakeith Smith, right. Who they're going on a, basically a days long crime spree. They're doing all these illegal things and ultimately in Alabama they broke into a home and they're, they're armed with firearms and they're trying to commit a burglary. Right. And you know, so this is bad and no one, I just want to be clear, no one's disputing that this is, you know, not a good situation. They're, you know, doing dangerous and illegal things. So what happened then was police respond to this situation back in 2015 and you, you know, Keith Smith, to be clear, is 15, he's the youngest in this, you know, group of several different kids. Police show up and one officer kind of comes into the house to Respond to this situation and that offer officer is fired upon. So he's almost hit by these bullets and a second officer goes around the side and encounters adante Washington against 16 and, and he had a gun and he was aiming it at the officer. That officer shot Washington and Washington was killed. So this was examined, this was investigated. His body camera footage was on and rolling and it shows Washington running toward him with a gun. So I guess when we're talking about an officer involved shooting. Kevin, when you have a situation like this, did the officer act appropriately? If someone has a gun, you know, and is running at the officer and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Aiming it at them, that would seem pretty clearly, that would be yes, a self defense.

[Anya Cain]

That's clearly the officer is acting appropriately according to their training. Right. When we think, when we. Obviously it's never a good outcome where someone ends up dead, especially a young man at 16. That's a tragedy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When you become a police officer, you're not like signing an agreement to let people kill you.

[Anya Cain]

No, no, no, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you have a right to defend yourself in a situation that calls for it. I think we can all agree that if an armed man is coming at you and is refusing to stop, you have a right to defend yourself in that situation.

[Anya Cain]

Again, it's something can be a tragedy. But that officer did not do anything wrong. And it's Sad that a 16 year old young man, you know, kid was killed. I mean 16, that's super young that somebody whose brain's probably not done developing, making bad choices. It's a tragedy. But you know, not every officer involved shooting is something that the officer did wrong. That would seem like the officer relied on their training and you know, followed the law. So I, I think that's, I just, I'm stressing that because it's kind of important for what happens to Lakeith Smith. Right. So he's killed and all of these kids are arrested and they are hit with felony murder charges for Adante Washington's death. You know, they're, they're hit with first degree burglary, first degree theft, second degree theft. And the reason they're hit with felony murder is because there's an Alabama law that says if you are engaging in any way or assisting in certain criminal offenses, you know, you can be, you know, held responsible as accomplices. Right. And it's called this, is this also, you know, the proximate cause theory that's in place here. You know, you can actually throw in murder charges if certain felony offenses lead to the death of an accomplice. And I have a huge problem with this. But we're gonna, we're gonna talk about it. So the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because reminiscent of something we've covered.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I feel very passionately about this. So my understanding is lakeith Smith was the only one who didn't take a plea deal. So he ended up getting hit with the, the full force of this and he ended up getting hit with like 30 years in prison for this. And it got, Obviously it's been 10 years and why this is in the news is that he's sort of back in court, sort of. I think they're arguing for, you know, ineffective counsel perhaps, or there's a ineffective assistance was kind of filed previously. There's just, you know, there's just a lot going on here where they're fighting it. But I guess to me, what this is reminiscent of is a case we covered early on in this show. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, this is, this case is very fresh in my mind. This is actually the first episode I ever edited and so it took me forever to edit it. And prior to that, this was a case I actually learned about in law school. This is a case involving a man named Redline. He and a friend of his were robbing a brothel restaurant. It went very badly wrong. Hostages are taken. And at one point during the incident, Mr. Redline's partner is shot and killed by a police officer acting lawfully in the course of his duty. And then Mr. Redline was charged and convicted with felony murder because the thinking was, oh, Mr. Redline agreed to participate in this felony. His partner got killed by the police officers. So Mr. Redline is responsible for that death and we're going to call it a murder. And it went all the way up to the high courts and it was ultimately ruled that, no, that wasn't a murder. Because a murder is inherently an unlawful act. And if the police officer acted lawfully, then that's not a murder. And since it's not a murder, Mr. Redline can't be charged with a crime. And so he ended up being released and we had a great conversation with his son. So that was that case. And it sounds in many ways to be quite similar to the case you just told us about.

[Anya Cain]

If the police officer did nothing wrong and followed his training. Again, as you said, it's not a murder, it's a, it's a justifiable homicide. It's a self defense situation involving police. So it's really hard for me to understand how felony murder is being applied here. I Understand it by the laws of Alabama. And I'm, you know, on the one hand, I. I'm very much a proponent of having tools for prosecutors to essentially ensure that culpability is assigned in situations like this. And frankly, you know, I. They were very young when they did this, so I'm not saying people can't be rehabilitated, but I mean, what they were doing sounds like it was pretty bad and pretty inherently dangerous. And running at the police with a gun is, you know, is going to get most people shot in most situations. So it's like I. On the one hand, I, I kind of feel like accountability absolutely needed to be handed out in this case. People needed to go to jail even though they were kids. But at the same time in this situation, it doesn't seem fair that this rule is being applied in this situation. I just don't see how it's a murder if it's a justifiable homicide by police. I don't. And what's kind of weird is that, you know, so these other accomplices got 25 years as part of their plea deals, right? This is, these are these other guys. So it's Anthony Shemandez, uh, Jadarian, Deshawn, and I'm gonna say this wrong, but Javarsky, Jackson. So they are all getting the 25 year deals. Originally, this was, this was worse. Originally, originally Lakeith Smith turned that down, got 65 years. Then in 2023 there was a resentencing, it was 30 years. So he's not really getting that much more than these other guys. But at the same time I do think there's an element of like, the principle of the thing here seems quite flawed and we don't want felony murder, which again is something I very much support. Right. Like I support felony murder sometimes. Felony murder, I think is the only way that you are actually going to get someone held accountable for doing something really horrible and dangerous. And you know, people die as a result of it and holding them accountable. But we don't want to overuse that. We don't want to abuse it. And what this listener pointed out to me was that there's discussion, and I think rightfully so, that this can be applied in a way that, you know, mostly affects black men. So this kind of a racial undertone of like felony murders being used to throw the book at certain people. You know, I don't even know if there's even any intent needed around that. Right. It doesn't have to be like an evil prosecutor being racist, like haha I'm going to do this. It's just if it often kind of is used in that way, there's just systematic biases and issues going on with that. Right. And you have to pay attention to that because that's not fair. And again, the James Red lion episode we did meant a lot to me because you know, you look at the article and you're like, oh, this guy's kind of a dirtbag. He's like robbing this brothel slash restaurant also. Why is there a brothel slash restaurant? But that's neither here nor there. You know, he's doing this and then he kind of, oh, it's kind of a law school quirk of like ah, yes, and then they overturned it. But then we got, we met his son, we heard about him. He became like a pillar in his community. Like he got a job and like, like raised a child with a woman and stayed with her and was a great husband and like was beloved by people in the community, was a volunteer firefighter. So that was a situation where if you just said, ah, just throw, throw away the key, all of that cool stuff wouldn't have happened and you know, he wouldn't have made a difference in his community. So I mean you got to give people, especially one so young as lakeith Smith. You know, I don't believe in just throwing people away here. This is a situation where the, the officer was justified in killing Washington, as tragic as that is. And it doesn't seem like this is fair. And I'm going to add one thing. The Washington's father has actually spoken out on this and he said, you know, essentially, quote, a neighbor called the cops when he saw a strange car in the driveway and the group, a group of boys run into the backyard. I would have done the same thing. The boys were running out of the house when the cops arrived. And in the confusion, my son was shot three times in the back by the police and pronounced deceased at the scene. My son lost his life and now I'm having to sit and watch another son's life be thrown away. Adande's friends involved in the break ins were held accountable for the burglary and theft, which is understandable. But they were also held accountable for Adante's death and left my family to deal with the loss of not only one child, but two as lakeith Smith is now a young adult behind bars. So they're saying, you know, our son was the one killed here and we're saying that perhaps something should change here. And I think I, I think his father is right. You know, I think that there needs to be some more understanding here. I, you know, I, I don't. If the father of this child, if, you know, his name is Andre Washington, if Andre Washington is saying, I don't consider this man to have murdered or this young man to have murdered my son, then I think that's a pretty good. I don't know. I mean, what do you think? Am I being too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Certainly that Redline case has really affected my thinking on, on things like this. So I, I, I tend to agree with you.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think the district attorney here is, like, doing anything that's not allowed by Alabama rules, to be honest. Like, I mean, I don't think it's like, oh, my gosh, this is so, you know, this is insane. It's just more of, like, this seems like a situation where, you know, if the laws are kind of allowing this, then there needs to be some tweaks, I think. You know, I just don't, this isn't, I don't think it's fair to look he. Smith, and I think he deserves to be able to be rehabilitated and possibly come out of this. I mean, you know, essentially, such a long sentence for participating in a burglary is not. I don't think this is fair. But that's just my take. Other people can certainly disagree, and I understand that, but I appreciate the person who raised this to my attention. Yeah, I was like, wow, I'm really having, like, these red line flashbacks. Right. So my next case is going, I guess, all the way back to Indiana. Right. Can't change. It's coming full circle.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're going home.

[Anya Cain]

We're going home, baby.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Homeward bound.

[Anya Cain]

Homeward bad, too. Remember that? So we watched that, that movie about the cats, the cat and the dogs coming home homeward bound so many times. But when my sister was little, she always called it two dogs and a cat.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I was gonna quote the Simon and Garfunkel song Homeward.

[Anya Cain]

Oh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because you derailed things last week by talking about Bruce Springsteen. So I was thinking, why don't I derail things by talking about Simon Garfunkel? But I digress.

[Anya Cain]

Are you a big Simon and Garfunkel guy? Just so people can know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There have been times in my life where I certainly enjoyed that music.

[Anya Cain]

So you kind of go in and out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You like Paul Simon, though?

[Kevin Greenlee]

There have been times in my life when I've enjoyed Disney music. She did. Of all things, he did a Broadway musical about a real murder Case.

[Anya Cain]

Wait, what murder case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

The cape man.

[Anya Cain]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

See you.

[Anya Cain]

I've never heard of that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have a lot, actually, folks. She has. Because I've discussed it with her in the past.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry, baby. I'm sorry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is like a real life exposure of how little attention she.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I'm not. It's not ringing any bells. So what's. What was the murder? It was a guy wearing a cape.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe we. Maybe we can cover it sometime. So no spoilers, but continue with your.

[Anya Cain]

Spoiler real life event. Okay, so. Okay, so I guess my last one. Let's see, this one was also from a listener. And I think this person probably wanted you to cover this because they know that you are famously a big lover of the sports teams. Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, I remember that debacle. So did they say. Yeah, I know Kevin loves to talk sports.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry. I can't even get through it. I want to see. I remember they phrased it in a really funny way. And I want to, like, read what they said. You were. You were going on about the sports teams, and you love all the sports teams, and you. You were like a big fan of all the sports teams. And she said Kevin can root for his favorite sportsball teams again. I know that's a big deal for you, Kevin. Oh, my gosh. So you're. But I took it on instead, so I'm giving you that chance. Giving you that gift. Talking about your sports teams.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're more the jock.

[Anya Cain]

Am I a jock?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You are the captain of your high school swimming team.

[Anya Cain]

That sounds more impressive until you realize that no one ran against me, so I was captain by default.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you were, like, doing sports in high school. I was.

[Anya Cain]

I was. I was. I was a swimmer. I wasn't super fast. I'm not Katie Ledecky, but I. I was. I think I had a pretty good technique. My. My stroke was so vain. My stroke was the breaststroke, which sounds embarrassing. And people. Me. You make fun of it a lot, but it's a real stroke. And I think I'm just gonna say this for all the swimmers out there. I think breast. And I'm gonna piss a lot of people off because, you know, everyone likes the freestyle, laid back backstrokers. The people who do butterfly are like the beasts. But I think breaststroke is for the intellectuals. That's all I'll say.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Speaking of.

[Anya Cain]

And I did the. I am too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anyway, speaking. Speaking of embarrassing. First of all, let me ask you. Did. Did you get. Did you earn a.

[Anya Cain]

A letter that wasn't really a thing at my school. I did get. I don't know if this is what you mean, but there was like, they gave us, My school started with a B, so they gave us like a blue B one year. So I, I guess I did. I literally got, I literally received a letter. I don't know if that. I know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did you earn it with these letters given to anyone or was it something you had to work for and earn?

[Anya Cain]

So I was on the varsity team. So the. I was on the varsity team from. We. I went to a very small school, so there was no JV swim team. And I joined varsity in seventh grade.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because, you know, one of us sitting at this desk.

[Anya Cain]

You earned a letter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I earned a letter.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I know what this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So maybe we should just stop there.

[Anya Cain]

No, no, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because it sounds, it sounds pretty good.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kevin earned a letter on one of your sports teams. Yes, it was a sports related letter.

[Anya Cain]

I earned it sports related.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Through my hard work.

[Anya Cain]

Related is doing a lot of work there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's talk about your case.

[Anya Cain]

What was the letter for, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you said it's a local case out of Indiana involving sports memorabilia.

[Anya Cain]

Was that the varsity AV Club? Was that it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

My high school, we had our own, they called it a television studio. And you had like, cameras and stuff. And some of these sports teams, like the girls basketball team, of all things, would say, oh, we want you to come videotape us. And so I said, oh, girls basketball team. That sounds good.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so I, I, I videotaped a bunch of sports events. And the rule was that if you videotaped a certain number of sports events, then you earned a letter. So I learned I earned a sports letter for videotape.

[Anya Cain]

Jesus Christ. So they just try and do like, nerd inclusion on the varsity teams or something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All I know is that one of us here got a letter.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I got a literal letter. And I was the captain of the team. And I will say this. I do remember that was like, probably one of my earliest sort of leadership management experiences. And I am very surprised that there was not a cane mutiny, so to speak, on that swim team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it was one of those things. I worked really hard to get this letter, and then they give me the letter and it's like, now what? It's like I had a goal and I achieved the goal, and then it didn't really mean that much by the time I got it. Because what, am I going to walk around with my little jacket say, hey, girls, I'm a Lettered, man, you're a letterman. When I was in Cub Scouts, I got the coveted Arrow of Light, which is the highest honor a Cub Scout can achieve. And then by the time you get it, it's like, okay, you're like, that's really depressing.

[Anya Cain]

You can't enjoy anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I have a sad life.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks a lot. Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah, so anyways, I'm not a jock. I was not very good at swimming. I just want to make that clear. Like, I was, I was like, okay, but we've digressed. Yeah, I just don't, don't be expecting that much here. Let's see. So what the hell were we talking about? Okay, so thank you to the person who suggested this. We're back off the rails. This is out of Indiana. And this is one of those things where you look at and you're like, what? And then you look at, you're like, oh, that's kind of depressing. So this is Indiana. This is. Previously we talked about a case out of Fishers, which is in Hamilton County. This is in Westfield, which is also in Hamilton county and right by Fishers. So this is all in the same area. Everything is popping off in Hamilton county right now. Not really, but there was a guy. So there was. So essentially, police got a tip, Westfield police about fraud around counterfeit sports memorabilia. And it traced Back to this LLC, Mr. Man Cave, and it was like an online store and sports memorabilia. So they got the tip from a woman from North Carolina, sort of said, I, I got this stuff is fake and it's a fraud. So obviously in this situation like that, you know, counterfeiting and, and you know, fraud and duping your customers is obviously illegal. It's not necessarily like, you know, the violent crimes that we're typically covering here, but it's still, you know, bad to do. So police go to the name, you know, the, the man associated with this LLC. And it's a 45 year old man named Brett Lemieux. And he, they go to his house and then, you know, they search the location where it's based. The Mr. Man cave is based. And then the next day they find a body, and it's Lemieux's body. And he apparently was found in the driveway of his home. And he, you know, died by suicide. He, he, he. Very tragic. Obviously, I mean, just because, I mean, he's doing fraud, that's not a good thing to do. But in a situation like this where it's like he dies, it just sucks. And it's A horrible thing to happen. But what's really wild about this is that on a social media post before, you know, before he died, he posted a bunch of stuff about this, like, very overarching counterfeit situation. And he was talking about how, you know, they're, you know, forging stamps, using auto pens, doing all this stuff, making $350 million. And he also named other people involved in this thing. And so what, you know, Westfield police are doing now is they have all this stuff that they have to look through. And, you know, now that they have this, like, whole Facebook situation, they're also looking at that and digging into whom he else have been involved. Because this sounds like it's way bigger than it initially appeared. Right. Like they, you know, I think this is a whole can of worms that's been open. So Westfield's involved, I believe. Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. Fisher's Police Department. Carmel Police Department. Carmel. Carmel's another city in Hamilton county. And now the Federal Bureau of Investigation is involved. So they are doing, you know, a lot on this and hopefully they're able to bring everyone to justice. And again, it's very sad that this, this gentleman died. I mean, again, sounds like he was involved in some pretty shady stuff, but that doesn't mean you deserve to die, obviously. So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Weird, weird situation. So that's where the sports memorabilia is coming in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're really slamming Hamilton county this week.

[Anya Cain]

Hamilton County. Come to Hamilton County. It's chaos burning down.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is it like just a big cesspool? I mean, what is it with you in Hamilton County?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I love Hamilton County.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone there cut you off in traffic or something?

[Anya Cain]

You think I'm so funny. I'm gonna, like, put a place on blast because I had a bad time there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Well, Indiana is not the state I would do that to. Let's just say that maybe one of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Our neighbors, Anya, is alluding to the fact we recently traveled through a neighboring state and had some experiences that were not entirely positive.

[Anya Cain]

I want you guys to guess what state this was, because it's a neighboring state to Indiana. That could mean any number of things. I. I'm not going to put it on blast because I'm sure there's a lot of lovely people there. But it's one of those things, like when you go to Indiana and you're like, in a gas station, either people are normal or they're like, pretty friendly. Like, oh, hey, you know, like, who's your hospitality? Like, that is a real thing. And you don't like it because you're like, get away from me. But I like it, right? But I. But this state, I. Again, like, I don't. I don't really need people to be super friendly. But in this state, anytime we showed up anywhere at, like, a food place or whatever, people would act. Like the people there would act almost. And even, like, the other customers. I don't know. Do I, like, look weird? But, like, people will be looking at you like, you just showed up in their house and demanded food. You know, like, they was like, what are you doing here? Like, like, kind of scared of you. And I was like, what the heck?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, Anya, those were people's homes. You were very, very confused.

[Anya Cain]

I was breaking and entering. I don't know, maybe it was just the state was having a bad day, in fairness, but, yeah, I'd be curious if anyone knows what I'm talking about. But it's a state where every time we've been in a city, there I've had a great time, and I love those cities. So it's like, I don't. I don't know what's going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're very confused.

[Anya Cain]

I wasn't breaking into people's houses. They were. These were business establishments.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They were closed.

[Anya Cain]

They weren't close. I took hostages. Where's my cereal? You've really spread a lot of propaganda about me on this show, haven't you? I spread a lot of propaganda? That's what he wants you to believe about me. And I'm crazy and I'm doing serial schemes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What are you, Anya Kinzu?

[Anya Cain]

I'm gonna join in this lawsuit that he's filing against us. Like, I get my own lawyer and I sue myself. The murder sheet's always spreading lies about me, too. Timogen, let's team up and take it all down. This sounds like a fever dream. Oh, my goodness. Anyways, well, what else is going on? So what are you laughing at me for?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So are people upset with us? Because we always tried to have the stupid part of cheat sheet at the end, but I feel like the stupid parts are getting more and more throughout the show. Should we be more disciplined and keep the stupidity at the end?

[Anya Cain]

Wow, way to open us up to a lot of flack, Kevin. Hey, everybody. Make us feel bad about showing more of our personality on the show. That's what we need right now. We're being attacked on all sides by Temujin and me and just every. Oh, God. This is all we need. No, I'm just kidding. We always welcome feedback. Seriously, I never want you guys to Ever feel like, oh, my gosh, if I offer honest and, like, you know, feedback that they're gonna, like, be super pissed or offended? We're not, I swear. You know, like, we love. We love that because it means you actually care about the show, which is flattering. So, you know, I just want to say that I know some people don't like that we're more personable or silly or whatever. And I. I get that. I mean, we try to. We try to keep it about ourselves, though, instead of, like, joking about cases. So hopefully we're holding to that. But. So I guess some things that we should note coming up. Right? So the book of that we wrote is for A Shadow of the Bridge is going to be coming out on August 26th. So it's really coming up. This is a situation where if you're a creator, if you have a book club, if you have an event that you want us to do, email [e-mail]. you know, I'm not. I can't promise everything will work out, but, I mean, it can't hurt to ask. And we. We'd really love to make it work on, you know, one way or another. Why are you looking at me like that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can't promise that everything will work out. That just sounds like a line from an old TV movie or something.

[Anya Cain]

What's the TV movie about? Trying to market a book. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Go on. I'm just gonna turn my head.

[Anya Cain]

Today on a very special episode of the Murder Sheet, Anya unveils her marketing plan for a book that she and her husband wrote. So I think. Yeah, so just email us. We'd love to make it work. And we'll. We'll, you know, we'll. We'll definitely make efforts to do that. As many things as possible. If any of it can be remote events and in person events. So that's one thing. So book clubs, other creators, and, you know, I'm really excited about this book. I think it's really gonna be a necessary thing for people to understand the Delphi murders case. Cause there's been stuff that's come out that's been fine, but not necessarily giving, like, a ton of stuff about what really happened behind the scenes. And then there's other stuff that's come out that's kind of just sucked, to be honest. So, you know, I think this is something that's gonna give the facts and not really varnish the truth here. In addition to that, I want to note that we are coming to CrimeCon right, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

We are so excited. We're going to be at the Denver Crimecon. And if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, consider doing Code Murder Sheet, because you'll get 10% off your standard badge. And, you know, you should come and hang out with us. Also, our friends Steve and Dave from the Detectives podcast are going to be there. We just had them on. They're awesome. You should definitely go listen to that show because it's awesome. Like, seriously, it's really good. They're actually working detectives and they know what they're talking about. It's very refreshing. So they're going to be there with us, and it'll be really cool. I know there's going to be a whole Delphi panel. I know some of the family members of Libby and Abby from, you know, deli are going to be there. They're going to be talking. I'm really excited for that. I think that's going to be a really wonderful thing. And I just, you know, I'm. I'm. I think that's going to be a terrific thing to be able to go and see. So we're excited and. Can I say this, Can I. Can I say this awkwardly? I. Even though we, like, haven't gotten, like, official confirmation yet, or should I shut the fuck up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't. Why don't you say it? And hopefully before you release this episode tomorrow, we'll have gotten official confirmation, and if not, I'm just flagging. We should remove it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we should remove it. So we understand that we've been nominated for the Clue Award at Crimecon, which I take People's Choice. People's Choice. That is so flattering and so nice, and thank you all very much. That means a lot. I think there's an opportunity for people going to Crimecon to vote. Obviously, we. That's just. I'm completely touched that we're even nominated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, if you like our show, if you think we did good work on the Temu case or on the deli case, if you appreciate the way we tend to really deep dive, and quite frankly, in the Temukin case, we got a lot of information out there that hadn't been out there before, if that's the sort of thing you like, feel free to vote for us.

[Anya Cain]

Or if you remember Burger Chef, that we were doing that a long time ago. But anyway, I just want to say thank you. I. I don't. You know, it's very. It's very sweet that we're even in the mix, and I Did not expect that at all. So thank you. And, oh, there's, you know, there's shirts, right? We got the, we got the shirts. The one that is sort of our previous situation where we can buy it on murdersheetshop.com, that has the kind of a limited selection and, you know, we're kind of winding down the supply with that for now, but we still got shirts and that's a great way to get it. And you can get a discount from Patreon on that, on those ones. And then we also have the murder sheet. The murder sheet.dasherY-A-S-H-E-R-Y.com and that's going to have some more inclusive sizes, so. More sizes. There's a wild one about me doing breakfast heists and there's a design about you can't unring the bell, which is something. I said that the wonderful people at Dashery were like, let's make a shirt about that. And I was like, I don't remember saying that. And they're like, you did? Here's the timestamp. And I was like, ah, yes, thank you. And they also have a little tote with that, which is cute. And they got a murder sheet mug, which is awesome. And I'm probably gonna get that because I think it looks cool. But, yeah, so there's lots of different options there. I think that's kind of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we are going to do a book signing in Delphi at the biscuit shop.

[Anya Cain]

We're going to be announcing some of our live events around Delphi soon. Hopefully soon, because we're going to. We have a couple of things planned and we want you to know, like, you can come and see them and you can get your book signed and biscuits. And you can purchase biscuits.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, at least at one of the events.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Not all the events, but the one where we go to the biscuit shop, you can definitely purchase and should purchase biscuits, because if not, then what are you doing? They're the best biscuits. I'm not even like, oh, my gosh. Like, I, I. That was one of those things where. Yeah, that was, that was quite a fine. The Delphi Biscuit Company is just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm not even. I'll be frank, I'll be honest. I will be blunt with you. The audience. I'm not even a biscuit guy.

[Anya Cain]

He's not a biscuit guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not a guy that wakes up in the morning, says, I could go for a biscuit.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we. There's this biscuit shop. And I think, well, I'll try it. It'll be better than nothing. And I get it. It is heaven. It is heaven on earth, these biscuits. I cannot exaggerate how good these biscuits are. I could not overstate it. So I'm still not a biscuit guy, but I'm that biscuit guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, I, I, I respect that because you're, you're holding out for quality biscuits. You're not going after them. See, I, I'm, you know, I, I like biscuits, so I might. Okay, this one's fine. I'll eat it. These ones are amazing. They're sublime. I, I can't even. I do. I need people to go eat there and tell me what you think because I just. And I also really like the waffles. I kind of mix it up. I got the waffles ones. I like that a lot. Biscuits are definitely my favorite. I like to just go the plain biscuit with some just, you know, butter jam. Just nothing, nothing crazy. I don't, you know, I need, I don't need anything nuts, but it's perfect. So what are we talking about? I don't even know. Oh, about the book. Sorry, we're jumping around wildly. Do you want to. You look like you want to say something first. What do you want to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just, I'm just.

[Anya Cain]

You're thinking about the biscuits.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, no, it's just I said something about the biscuits and the next thing I know you're talking about waffles, so I'm just thrown for a loop. But you, Whatever you had to say.

[Anya Cain]

But the waffles, they sell it at the same place. Yeah, I'm talking about the biscuit shop.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

What do you. Geez. So this is where I was gonna so the book. Right. You know, we're not necessarily gonna be able to go to like every city and sign things. And I'm sorry for that. I wish we can come go meet a lot of you because, you know, you're awesome and we really enjoy talking at you every week. But I, there's for people who don't think they're gonna be able to make it out to something or if you just want to do this, everyone who pre ordered can fill out a form and get a pre signed book sticker.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me be a little bit more clear. You say everybody who pre ordered. That makes it sound like it's done. The offer is done. You've missed the boat if you haven't pre ordered. And that's not the case.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Up until the book comes out, you can pre order it, and anytime you pre order it, you can fill out this form.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Where could a person find this form?

[Anya Cain]

Two places you can find the form. If you go to our Facebook group, which is a great murder sheet discussion group run by our wonderful and intrepid moderator, Ellen. The form is there. I posted it. And if you need help finding it, you can ask anybody for directions on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Where to get that or anybody in the group. Like, don't, like, go to the grocery store.

[Anya Cain]

Just go to the random grocery store. The cashier knows us. It's fine. Just tell her, where else can I find this? Don't do that. That would be really embarrassing. She will have no idea what you're talking about. The other place you can find the form is you can email. If you're not. A lot of people aren't on Facebook, that's fine. If you email murdersheetmail.com and say, hey, send me the form, I'll just send you the form. So you can do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You fill out the form. We'll send you an autographed book plate.

[Anya Cain]

Book plate. Like a little, you know, paper book plate you can use as bookmark. You can stick it in one of the pages. So it's. It's, you know, it's. It's a. That's a. That's a way to have it. And we just. It's a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And to be clear, autographed by us.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're not going to randomly have someone else. We'll have Lania stamp her paw on it. We are super grateful to everyone who pre ordered. Some people are saying, well, I ordered off Amazon. Can I do it? Yeah. Everyone, it's everybody. Oh, I got an ebook. You can still have a book plate. I don't care.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I once went to an event featuring the author John Irving, and they had, like a big stacks of pre signed book plates, and at the end of the event, there was still stacks of them, and they were throwing them away. And so I got, like, a huge stack of these. And so I'm not gonna be sending those out. It'll be not. Not John Irving, but it'll be Kevin and I.

[Anya Cain]

Can you a prayer for Kevin? Greenlee? Oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah, we're not going to do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have you, anya, have you, Ms. Kane and I know the answer to this. Have you ever been to any book signings?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've seen an awkward photo from that event.

[Anya Cain]

That is the most. It was a crime nonfiction book. Most awkward photo of My life. It was one of those things. I just wanted to get my book signed. But then they were like, everyone, line up. Give us your phones. Take a photo with the author. Move on, get it signed. And it was like, what did I sign up for? Oh, gosh. And I was there alone. I am the most socially awkward person. Guys you don't like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is before we were a couple.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, so you say you made me less socially awkward? Is that what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, you said you were alone. People said, where's Kevin?

[Anya Cain]

Kevin. Kevin left me all by myself. No, it was really awkward. Crime nonfiction book that is. You know, I don't think it's aged super well, but, you know, whatever. It was just. I. I just. I saw that picture. I was like, you ever see a picture and it just, like, of yourself, and it just ruins your day like that? So it was one of those ones.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was like, yeah, it wasn't. You looked really unhappy and uncomfortable.

[Anya Cain]

I just. I'm like, I don't want to. Like, I just want to get my book signed. I don't also, if we do anything, you don't have to take a picture with us. Like, you can ask, like. Like, that can be something that you can get done. But I. We're not doing that. You don't have to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I've been. I've been to lots and lots of book signings, and you mentioning. You referenced A Prayer for Owen Meaney, which is, of course, a novel by John Irving. So the most awkward thing that ever happened that I witnessed at a book event, shockingly enough, does not involve me in the slightest. Maybe a month or two from now, we'll have awkward things involving me that we can talk about. But I'm at a book event, a lecture, and a book signing by John Updike, another fine American author. A lot of great books, which is why I'm saying John Updike's in town. I'm going. So.

[Anya Cain]

I'm there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I said, hold my coat. I'm gonna see this. So I go to this event. He reads an excerpt from his then most recent novel and says, okay, before we start signing, I'm gonna take some questions from the crowd. And there's a couple of questions. And then one woman stands up and says, oh, Mr. Updike, I'm a huge fan of your work. Maybe one of your most devoted fans ever. And can you just. There's one thing I've always wondered about. Can you right now do an impression for us of what Owen Meaney's voice sounds like? And of course she's asking about a book another author wrote. Oh, no, this is John Updike. This is not John Irving. He looks very baffled and confused. And then his handlers come and quickly rush him off the stage. You've seen, like, when a rabbit run. I don't mean to be the least bit political, but you've seen, like, the Trump attempted assassination, how the Secret Service agents come and rush him away. It was very much like that. He's rushed off the stage. It was very, very awkward. And like, everybody in the crowd is like, why'd she ask that? Why'd she ask what's wrong? And then it gradually dawns on the woman. It's like, o, so that's my book signing story. Do you think that anything that awkward is going to happen to us?

[Anya Cain]

Probably. I feel like that would make me just want to be illiterate for life. Like, I just wouldn't ever want to read another book. That's so awful. I feel so bad for everyone there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She looked uncomfortable. I think if she started asking the question she was phrasing, if he was, like, enjoying that, oh, God, this guy wrote the World According to Garp. No, no, he didn't. You're praising another author's work.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, gosh, I'm just like, oh, man, that's horrible. I just feel bad for everyone in that situation. I, I, I don't. We, I don't want to say, oh, our book signings are going to be that awkward. I don't want people not to come. This is a great, great advertisement. Hey, come and, like, something horrible will happen and we'll run away. Nothing like that's gonna happen. Honestly, at this point, if you want to come up there and be saying stuff like, wow, I love. I don't know what's a, what's another true crime book that came out recently? I don't know. Really loved your work in college. Girl missing. We'd just be like, ha, ha, okay. And then people admit the murder. She took cred. Now we're just trying to avoid public humiliation for somebody who's nice enough to come to one of these things. Gosh, Jesus, that's just bad. I mean, I thought the freaking. The Carl Bernstein signing we went to got pretty awkward at times. Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do.

[Anya Cain]

Do you remember how, like, it was? It was one of, it was a humiliate. It was a humiliation for my profession, journalism. Right. Because I, and he was great. Carl Bernstein was awesome. Like, he was very funny. He did a whole talk at Bloomington. Loved that Just was awesome. So, you know, nothing on him, but like, you had all these people standing up to say. And they're all, you know, a lot of them are journalists, right? They're like, I'm a journalist. And then they would proceed to ask the most long winded biographical question where they're like, telling him their life story in their lives. And it's like, God, for a bunch of journalists, you guys sure ask, like, freaking terrible questions. Be like, hi, Mr. Bernstein. Back when my father was born in Florida, it's like, what the. I'm just sitting there, like, cringing. It's like, we are here for like, it went on. I think he only answered like three questions because everyone's question was like 30 minutes. And it was like, gosh, the state of journalism.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I don't want to end on a bad note. So I also, at one point, I attended a signing and a lecture by the great crime fiction novelist Elmore Leonard.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I remember his presentation was witty and delightful. And I remember there were a few audience questions which were brief and pertinent, to which he gave very witty and delightful replies. And then he signed a lot of people's books afterwards. And it was just a great experience. So that's what it'd be like when people come and see us.

[Anya Cain]

It was out of sight.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Would be like, Elmer Leonard.

[Anya Cain]

Well, don't say that. Don't embarrass, like, a famous author. That's so embarrassing. We'll be our awkward selves. But it'll be really nice to see all of you. And you know, you shouldn't, you know, you should definitely come if you can, because we'd love to see you. And even if you, you know, you can always come to one and then just if you're near another one's near you, come say hi. You don't have to buy another book. We're not gonna force you to do that or anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if you want to.

[Anya Cain]

That's not my scheme. We're not gonna, like, conscript you into buying another one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, but seriously, one object if you do.

[Anya Cain]

No, he won't. But I also. But also, same with Crime Con. Come and hang out with us. It would be really nice. I mean, that's why we're going. I'm going to Crime Con because I want to, like, meet people who are listeners and chat with them. So that's very much what we want to do the whole time. Right. Why are you looking at me suspiciously?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not looking at you suspiciously.

[Anya Cain]

What are you. What's going on here. I'm still traumatized by that John Updike story, by the way. I need to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That before.

[Anya Cain]

I think you had. I think I blacked it out. No, I do remember you telling me that. But I, like, as. As you were telling me again, I was just like, oh, no. It's about. That's like a short story in and of itself. It's like a. Like a dreadful short story that just like, oh, gosh, I need to lie down. I hope that woman's okay. What would you do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

What would you do? I mean, they just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They just came and rushed him off the stage.

[Anya Cain]

That's the. That's the worst part of it. So, like, Like, I just imagine. I do imagine a bunch of Secret Service that just like, get down, sir. They run in. That.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a bad question.

[Anya Cain]

That question was like a bullet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe when we do public events and if we take questions, we should have Dave and Steve there, the detectives.

[Anya Cain]

Why? Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they can rush us out if there's a bad question.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. But maybe it'll, like, get twisted and they'll be like, Anya and Kevin. We love that episode you guys did about Hollywood versus reality and investigations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, no.

[Anya Cain]

It's happening to everyone now. No, I. I think. I. I don't know. I just need to lie down after that. I need to think about some things. I get really bad secondhand embarrassment, so. And. And, you know, just something to. It'll be fine, though. That's not gonna happen to us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But he was fine. Cause he still signed books. I have upstairs on. On one of my shelves, I have a signed copy of I believe It's Brazil that I got signed that day. He. And that was fine because I. I thought at the time, oh, my God, is he dead? But he was fine. He was fine. It was fine. Just hit the button. Just hit the button. Do it, do it, do it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We're obsessed with our Quint's pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say. What is Quint's Quints is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors and you're just gonna get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses cause like I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits, fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret and yeah, I just really think Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quints. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet you know, Anya, we are in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was simply safe.

[Anya Cain]

Simplisafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, were no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisave, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard outdoor protection that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened, they're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe.

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