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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
Spring's here. Where are you going on break? I'm for some reason thinking a lot about Cleveland because they've got some wild historical cases. Or honestly, maybe Chicago or Detroit. Wherever you go this spring, travel in luxury without breaking the bank.
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
Check them all out. They've really got something for everyone.
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:39]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [03:09]
Anya Cain
Get adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives, but are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com wondery greenlight.com wondery content warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the death of a teenager and the we will also be discussing some crimes of a sexual nature, including stalking. So today on the Cheat Sheet we're heading all around. We're going to the United Kingdom, doing a lot of UK cases recently. We're going to Wisconsin, we're going to Tennessee and we're going to Oregon. And the two cases I picked were cases we've covered on the Cheat Sheet in the past and kind of wrapping up what happened in them. Ready?
- [04:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Do it.
- [04:18]
Anya Cain
My name is Anya Cain.
- [04:19]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.
- [04:22]
Anya Cain
I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:25]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We we're the Murder Sheet and this.
- [04:33]
Anya Cain
Is the Cheat Sheet. Mockingbirds and misconduct.
- [05:22]
Kevin Greenlee
I think people might be surprised if they knew how much time we spend just before we record these trying to come up with a title.
- [05:30]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that's fair. And we will be surprised by a lot of things going on around here.
- [05:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, but. But yeah, you don't want to clear the track for the Cane Train until we have a title for the episode.
- [05:42]
Anya Cain
Cane Train. Is it at least one of those fancy old timey trains that like the movies are on and there's like a mystery and like everyone has their own fancy little cars?
- [05:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay.
- [05:53]
Anya Cain
Yes. The answer is yes. If I'm gonna have to have a train. I want it to be a train with style and class. Yeah, I think that's what I deserve.
- [06:02]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, it's nice that you think so. No, you deserve an elegant, old fashioned, unwieldy train.
- [06:09]
Anya Cain
Thank you. I remember the first time I traveled to Amtrak business class. The whole long story. In college, we're going to a newspaper thing, and for some reason in my head, I was like, imagining something that was different than what was actually. I don't know what. Like, there was no reason for me to be thinking of like a fancy, like, murder on the Orient Express sort of situation. But I felt let down. And then I was like, trying to, like, why do I feel kind of disappointed? Oh, it's because I had completely ridiculous expectations here.
- [06:37]
Kevin Greenlee
So you've actually written about your experience riding trains in your former life as a reporter for Business Insiders.
- [06:42]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Some real hot, hot news there. A real hot scoop how I did on a train. I broke that story.
- [06:50]
Kevin Greenlee
It was quite a scoop.
- [06:51]
Anya Cain
Second only to the Watergate reporting. I. Geez.
- [06:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Anyways, with that in mind, why don't we get to it?
- [06:57]
Anya Cain
Let's do it. So this first case is out in, in the United Kingdom. This is a horrible murder, and we've covered it before. Again, my two picks are ones where there's kind of a conclusion in a case we previously covered. And this occurred on July 9, 2024. It's. It's absolutely horrifying, and it's kind of the stuff that nightmares are made of. But I think it's important to talk about. This is. This is the murder of a mother and two daughters, Carol Hunt and her daughters, Hannah and Louise Hunt. And they were murdered in Hertfordshire by Louise's ex boyfriend, a man named Kyle Clifford. And they were murdered with a crossbow and a knife. And this is just, just the most horrifying. Like, Louise was a young woman who met this guy Clifford on dating apps. And they. They had like a. I think they dated for like 18 months. He cheated on her. He had two relationships that he did not disclose. And he belittled her. He made misogynistic and racist and transphobic comments in front of her that made her really uncomfortable. And she just didn't want to be him with him anymore because he was a complete loser. I mean, like, there's nothing. There's nothing else. I mean, he was just a. He was not a person she wanted to be with anymore. Now, at first she got the impression that he was okay with that, and, you know, he sent her a Text talking about how they both heal and kind of move on. So it seemed like everything was. Was okay, but it wasn't because he was actually plotting to murder her and her whole family. And he. He said about that he talked. He basically got the mother, Carol, to open the door to the house and stabbed her to death. Once, you know, once she let him in, he claimed to be returning some of her daughter's possessions. Then he waited until Louise came into the house. She had been out in kind of the garden. There was a kind of an area where she did some work with her dog grooming business. And he attacked her, tied her up, raped her for hours, for several hours. And then as her sister started coming home, he shot her with the crossbow, shot Louise, and then attacked Hannah when she came in. And she was able to text her boyfriend that she was being tied up by Clifford and to call the police. And, you know, that kind of got things rolling. It seems apparent that Clifford was also planning to kill John Hunt, who is the father of Louise and Hannah and the husband of Carol. He's a racing comment commenter for. So he's like, you know, well known for that. But because Hannah did this, he was, you know, police were alerted, and when they got there, Hannah was still alive, but she died shortly thereafter. And it just like just the senselessness of this and the cruelty of this. Recently, before the sentencing, John Hunt, again, the father who lost these two girls and his wife made a comment or, you know, gave a statement to the court talking about this. And I wanted to read excerpts from this because I thought this was just so incredibly powerful, this man speaking about his loss, speaking directly to the man who killed most of his immediate family. 1. One of Hunt's daughters, Amy, does survive. She was, you know, not there, but he lost two of his daughters. I mean, just the unimaginable loss. And. And again, our source from this is the BBC. And thanks to the listeners who recommended this and sent us these statements, because incredibly powerful, this is what John Hunt said, Quote, I also want to confirm to the world the truth, especially how Louise conducted herself within a textbook mature breakup on her part. Understanding the conflict of saying goodbye to someone she once loved, but not allowing those memories to cloud her certain knowledge that you simply failed to be the person she needed. You failed. I am so proud of all my girls. Unlike you, Kyle, at every step of their lives, they made the correct choices to improve themselves as people. Louise enjoyed more success and fulfillment in one morning than you achieved in your entire miserable life. End quote. And it continues Quote, do you recall, Kyle, how kind we all were to you, helping you and Louise enjoy trips away? Do you remember how she loved a swanky hotel? You were always invited to meals out, a Sunday lunch at the pub or a special celebration. You were always made welcome. The only Christmas you spent together was at our house. Was it four or five days you spent with us? The food, the games, the laughter, the normality. What was it about that blissful existence you hated so much, Kyle? Could you not handle how pleasant it was? Such a contrast to what you were used to, End quote. As I mentioned, Louise ended up coming into conflict for him. Like, just some of his views were really radical and messed up. And keep in. Keep in mind that this guy Clifford, his older brother, is also a murderer.
- [12:12]
Kevin Greenlee
He.
- [12:12]
Anya Cain
He killed somebody in, like, a road rage incident. And, you know, she was disturbed by the fact that he didn't seem to think that was a big deal. And let me just ask you, like, I know we're not supposed to do this, but I don't really care. How badly do you have to mess up as parents to raise two people like this? I understand their aberrations and that I believe that good parents can produce a kid who turns out bad for any number of reasons, be they socioeconomic, mental health. You know, there can be a number of factors. But how bad? Like, I mean, at that point, like, good Lord, at some point, you have to be looking at, like, what are people learning in their upbringings that make them think it's okay to, like, kill other people? Anyways, I'll continue. This is. This is something that made me tear up. So. John Hunt continued. Quote, Louise's favorite novel from her school days was Harper Lee's classic To Kill a Mockingbird. She was captivated by the goodness of Atticus Finch, both as a father and as a lawyer. She would often quote lines from the novel to match life's challenges. One of those quotes that comes to mind right here in this moment is that of Ms. Maudi reasserting Atticus's assertion that it's a sin to kill a mockingbird. She said, your father's right. Mockingbirds don't do one thing except make music for us to enjoy. They don't eat up people's gardens, don't nest in corn cribs. They don't do one thing but sing their hearts out for us. That's why it's a sin to kill a mockingbird. All their lives, Carol Hannah and Louise similarly spent their time bringing joy and color and happiness to other people's lives. You killed three beautiful mockingbirds, Kyle. I'm sorry. That's just. My heart goes out to Mr. Hunt and his daughter Amy. And he went on to tell Kyle Clifford that he's going to burn in hell. And I think that's appropriate. I just think the fact that their family went through this, it's just. It's shocking. It should horrify everyone and it should make people examine, you know, exactly the level of misogyny that led to this. The level of wanting to control this young woman, Louise, despite the fact she treated this man with kindness when he was obviously worthless. I think society has a real sickness that we're producing young men like this.
- [14:30]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree.
- [14:32]
Anya Cain
So let's go to Tennessee now.
- [14:35]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, let's go to Tennessee. My sources for this are the Williamson Herald and WSMV.com I think one thing, Anya, that's important to remember when we talk about crimes, especially when there are crimes involving people who are related to each other, the crime itself is like a snapshot of a particular moment. And if you really want to have an understanding of why that moment happened, you have to go into the past and try to get some context. So before I get to the new stuff, I want to go back all the way back to July 20th of 2020 to talk about an incident some of you might remember. An 18 year old young man named Grant Solomon was with his father, a former WSMV news anchor named Aaron Solomon. And Grant, the young man, I believe, was unloading some stuff from the back of a truck. And the father, Aaron, says he turns his head and the next thing he knows, the truck runs over his son, ultimately causing him injuries which tragically take his life. You may or may not recall hearing about that story back in 2020. If you do recall it, the odds are the reason you do is because a number of people, rightly or wrongly, I haven't looked into that case in depth. But a number of people seemed concerned or became convinced that the whole truth of the incident was not being told and that the father, Mr. Solomon, bore some sort of criminal responsibility for his son's death. Now, I think at this point it's important to stress that, you know, investigation was done and the father, Aaron Solomon, never faced any charges. Despite that, Solomon's wife and daughter, his daughter is named Angela Solomon and his, pardon me, his wife is named Angela Solomon and his daughter is named Gracie. They were some of the ones who were saying, maybe something's not right here. And they were the ones who said, oh, there's suspicious circumstances. And maybe the father Aaron bears some responsibility here and they had some theories involving he was allegedly trying to cover up some sort of abuse that was going on. And again, these have not been substantiated and the father Aaron strenuously denies those claims.
- [17:40]
Anya Cain
Was there any history of like CPS calls, domestic violence calls, anything like that to?
- [17:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Not that I'm aware of. But if you go looking into this case online, it won't take you that long to stumble across some of these conspiracy sites who have very complicated theories accusing the father of basically killing his son.
- [18:05]
Anya Cain
Staying hydrated is a key part of health. But how can we stay hydrated without breaking the bank when we've got all kinds of microplastics and impurities and weird tastes to contend with from our tap water?
- [18:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Those weird tastes definitely get me. I tend to prefer the taste of bottled water, even though that's not the most budget friendly option.
- [18:26]
Anya Cain
That's where Aqua True comes in for us. We love our new Aqua Tru with its four stage reverse osmosis water purification system.
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [18:51]
Anya Cain
Whatever kind of water purifier you want, they've got it to best fit your lifestyle. Countertop purifiers that don't require a plumber to install them. High capacity under the sink options. They even have one that connects to WI fi. That's the one we have now and we love it. It's so easy to use. Plus it's got both of us drinking a ton more water and staying hydrated all the time. The water tastes great, it's delicious, it's healthy and it's saving us a lot of money.
- [19:19]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [19:46]
Anya Cain
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- [21:29]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, and it's, it's unclear what evidence. His wife, now former wife and daughter have to back that up. So this happened again back in 2020. And the reason I'm going into all of that history now is because Aaron Solomon's now ex wife, Angela was recently arrested because she was caught trying to hire a hitman to kill Aaron.
- [22:03]
Anya Cain
Oh, there you go. There you go.
- [22:05]
Kevin Greenlee
And she says apparently one of her motives was she wanted to ensure that her daughter would get access to some kind of a trust fund.
- [22:13]
Anya Cain
Are you kidding me?
- [22:15]
Kevin Greenlee
So that's that.
- [22:16]
Anya Cain
So she's not saying I want revenge for my murdered son who wasn't really murdered, she's saying I want the money. So that sounds about right. So like basically bashing him in the first place was probably similarly motivated.
- [22:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. If you end up getting caught trying to kill someone, your earlier comments about what allows they are seem to have a lot less credibility.
- [22:40]
Anya Cain
They have no credibility. Yes, because a person who, like once you, once you cross the line of murdering someone or attempting to have someone murdered, you're done. In my book, that's it. You know, unless there's, I mean, I guess there would be some very, very specific circumstances where it's like, okay, we can still hear somebody out or they both could be bad, but I mean, in this, I mean, trying to exploit the death of her son in order to, like, stick it to the husband and then trying to have the man killed. I mean, what a sickness.
- [23:14]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. She met with an undercover law enforcement officer who was acting as a hitman or pretending to be a hitman on April 11, less than a week ago, and tried to arrange this. And soon after that meeting, she was arrested. If you go to the conspiracy sites, it's all a big frame up.
- [23:34]
Anya Cain
Oh, naturally, of course, when you say conspiracy sites, like, what are you talking about? Is this like social media or they set up their own little sad websites?
- [23:45]
Kevin Greenlee
More of the latter. I found a couple of websites with stuff going back for quite some time about it. I vaguely recall hearing about the tragic truck accident at the time. And I remembered that it had caused a stir at the time in some quarters. I didn't realize that conversation was ongoing. And I always assume that investigating officers generally have access to a lot more information than I do. And if a decision is made not to charge someone with a crime, there's usually a good reason for that. And if you're someone who, as we all should be, we all should be concerned about wrongful convictions. We don't want people facing criminal charges just because there is a hubbub online. And just because some people can point at a detail or two and say, I don't understand that, it must be suspicious. Get him.
- [24:42]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Oh, he has a bruise on his thigh. Well, maybe that could be determined through the investigation to have been caused by the truck. Yeah, like, there you go. If I have a coroner, or rather a pathologist saying that or a medical examiner saying that, I'm going to trust that a hell of a lot more than some random person who's posting picture online and saying, well, I don't get this. Yeah, you don't get a lot. That's why you're making a website like this. Obviously. I mean, like, that's not, that's not credible. And I'm not. I think there are cases where you have a mysterious death and where there may very well have been a crime committed, but there's not enough evidence. And that must be the most frustrating thing for a family. And my heart goes out to families who are in that situation. That, that's like, I know something happened that kind of looks like something happened, but we just can't quite get there to facilitate charges against a specific person. But there's. Then there's cases where people are just trying to find someone to blame and that's where I kind of don't. Yeah, I don't. You know, it's like my heart, my.
- [25:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Heart goes out to families. In that first instance that you talk about where it's generally known that this is the person responsible, but for a variety of reasons, charges can't be filed.
- [25:50]
Anya Cain
Or there's just like, who gave them the fentanyl? We don't know. Or like, yeah, it looks like it could have been one thing or another, but we'll never know because the bodies to get decomposed there. There's situations where you won't find answers through the criminal justice system because you need evidence for that and there's not enough evidence. And that. That's horrible. And so I, I don't denigrate people who, or. Or people who feel like, hey, I think the police kind of gave a glance and glimpse at this. They didn't really do a thorough investigation. I want a second look. Like all of that, all of that can fit into what I think is absolutely fine. And you should do. And you should advocate for your family. But then there's the side of this to where it's like, let me use this tragedy as a cudgel to beat other people down. And I do not care for that genre of this, of this.
- [26:34]
Kevin Greenlee
And again, whatever credibility she had about her original concerns, that credibility is gone now. And it seems like there was no chargeable evidence against this man. As you say, there are frustrating situations for families sometimes. I'm not saying this is one of those where they feel that they know who did it and why and charges can't be filed. My mind goes back a few years ago. I don't think we talked about it on the show, but we went to a public meeting between families of homicide victims and police officers and the prosecution, the Marion County Prosecutor's office, and there was an instance there. I'm not gonna go into a lot of detail, but there was an instance where someone's family member got into a car with someone else and the someone else shot them. And so we know who shot this person and who killed this person. But that person is claiming self defense. And the problem is, since the crime or since the incident happened in a closed car, no one else saw it. So there's no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self defense. As it turns out, the victim was kind of, I believe she was an older woman and the perpetrator was a larger guy. So maybe that is an argument against self defense, but it doesn't rise to the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. And my heart went out to that family, but there's nothing that could be done.
- [28:07]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think people need to be aware of the limitations of the criminal justice system so that they can brace themselves in situations. Because you expect, we're going to get help, we're going to get justice. And that's not always going to happen, depending on the circumstances of the case. And that's brutal to say, but it's just true. Because if you, if people are aware of that, then they can seek healing elsewhere. And honestly, I think a lot of people who go through the criminal justice system, they don't find healing there because the whole process is so brutal and clinical. And that's not anyone's fault. That's not anyone being mean. It's just the way it needs to operate. And yeah, I think the expectations, but in this case, I just have suspicion of any of the claims of somebody who's then willing to go hire a hitman to kill somebody in order to get money. Like, I think it's Angelia. Is that it? Angelia Solomon. I mean, and the fact that, like, you have these conspiracy websites that are probably, like, run by her friends or, you know, fellow obsessives who then can't, when faced with this, can't even really engage with that in an honest way, can't say, well, okay, let me reassess what I've been told over the years. They can't. Like, I have so much respect when people are kind of being fed one thing and then they have a moment where they're like, wait, maybe I should at least consider the other side. No, of course it's. Actually, let me just protect my own ego by saying it fits in the grand conspiracy. Oh, she's being framed it all. It goes all the way to the top. It's like, come on, grow up. Like, literally just grow up and like, like, get a brain. You know, like, it's really not that hard.
- [29:41]
Kevin Greenlee
I've said this on the show before. Up until I was in my early 20s, I was a devout believer in JFK conspiracy theories. But finally, looking at the evidence, I was convinced that belief was incorrect. So I changed my mind. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind.
- [29:59]
Anya Cain
Or at least you don't even have to fully do an about face here. You can literally just say, well, this kind of raises some questions. Let's look into it. You know, like, you can just like, like, I need to process this. And instead of just going into defensive mode of, like, my whole life for the last four years. It will be completely wasted unless I make this mean something. So obviously she's being framed. It's like, you know, like whenever I see someone kind of crouching to protect their ego like that, it's just, you know, it's. I like that. That makes them not have any credibility to me. So. But I mean, it's true crime. So I guess that's what we see a lot of.
- [30:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Let's hit the tracks and go over to Oregon. And my sources for this are the Portland Tribune and KPTV.com this is an older case again, that has some more recent developments. This involves the 1989 murder of Oregon Corrections Director Michael Franke. And as it turns out, a man named Frank Gable was arrested for that crime and convicted of that crime. But subsequently, it is developed that the case against him was very, very weak. And in fact, it was compromised. I'm going to quote a few lines from Appeals Court Judge Jacqueline Union. She writes, quote, the facts on appeal are extraordinary. Since the trial, nearly all the witnesses who directly implicated Gable have recanted. Many explained they intended to frame Gable after hearing he was a police informant. They attribute their false testimony to significant investigative misconduct, which the state remarkably, does not dispute. End quote. Because usually when there's a wrongful conviction case or an alleged wrongful conviction case, that's something that's alleged by the defense. And the state says, no, it wasn't a wrongful conviction at all. And the things the defense are saying are not true. But in this case, the state is saying, well, yeah, they were true. And so, in fact, the state has formally recognized this guy is not guilty. And so because of that, the case has become an open, unsolved murder once more, all of these years later. And it's unclear who's responsible for Mr. Frankie's death. @ the time, he was said to have been doing some investigations into allegations of different things. So it's unclear if that was a factor in his death. But in any case, I thought it was very interesting that recently the Oregon House of Representatives. In a bipartisan effort, Republicans and Democrats have asked the FBI to open a new investigation into this decades old murder.
- [33:01]
Anya Cain
Wow. Republicans and Democrats working together toward a common goal in this. In this 2025. That is pretty remarkable.
- [33:11]
Kevin Greenlee
That's remarkable in and of itself. That's what caught my eye.
- [33:14]
Anya Cain
Wow. I mean, yeah, because, I mean, geez, it sort of seems like everyone's in agreement here. I mean, without looking into. Without looking into it. I don't know. I'm always Very reluctant to jump on an innocence bandwagon, necessarily, without really digging into it myself. But a lot of this seems pretty significant, that all of these parties are in agreement to me, and I mean, gosh.
- [33:41]
Kevin Greenlee
U.S. magistrate Judge John Acosta said, this court concludes that it is more likely than not that no reasonable juror would find Gable guilty in light of the totality of all the evidence uncovered since that time, particularly the newly presented evidence of witness recantations.
- [34:02]
Anya Cain
And I'm seeing this. This is fascinating. Now. Now I'm falling down the rabbit hole. There's. There's one witness who said a different drug dealer did the killing, this Timothy Natividad, who was then murdered, who then killed him himself later on. So you're probably. I mean, oh, man. See, this. Like, this is what I think it is important to realize and hopefully kind of keep in your minds. And this is why it's so difficult sometimes to talk about conspiracy theories. Sometimes conspiracies do happen, and you have to go where the evidence is. That's the only difference between a conspiracy theory and a real conspiracy. If the evidence is pointing towards something that's, you know, then that. That could be real, and that should be taken into consideration. That should be seriously discussed. But if, you know, if it's something. If it's something that's just kind of like that sounds good, but we don't really have any evidence for that, then that's not so. Not so good. Geez, what a case.
- [35:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it's a case that's full of twists and turns, and I hope the FBI does what the Oregon House of Representatives is asking and reopens the case and begins investigating it once more. I should note that the Franke family supports those efforts.
- [35:24]
Anya Cain
Really? So even they're like, well, we don't think this was.
- [35:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. They have long maintained that this person who was convicted is actually innocent.
- [35:33]
Anya Cain
What's your thoughts going. Going. Just looking at this. And obviously, this is a cheat sheet, so we're not, like, doing a huge deep dive, but, like, your initial thoughts on looking at this.
- [35:46]
Kevin Greenlee
It'S very, very troubling. And I know Mr. Gable has filed a suit against some of the investigators involved. Yeah, it's troubling. What do you think?
- [35:58]
Anya Cain
Well, no, I mean, I told you what I thought. I thought, you know, it was interesting, but, I mean, you know, it probably a little bit better. So I was curious if you.
- [36:04]
Kevin Greenlee
I. I'm not convinced it was a big conspiracy, but I. I. Now I do tend to think, more likely than not, that Mr. Gable is not the person responsible for this. I accept all the authorities who say that he is not responsible for this. And that means whoever did this crime has escaped punishment for it. And the family deserves answers, and there needs to be justice. So, again, I hope the FBI does with the Oregon House of Representatives is requesting and reopens this case.
- [36:35]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it doesn't have to be a conspiracy, but. But seems like there's a lot of questions here.
- [36:41]
Kevin Greenlee
All right, Are you going to bring us home? One more case on the way.
- [36:44]
Anya Cain
Wisconsin. Yeah. So we're going to go back to Wisconsin.
- [36:47]
Kevin Greenlee
This is kind of our neighbor to the north.
- [36:49]
Anya Cain
It's not our neighbor, but I mean, it's the same general. It's Midwest, but. So this is a case that was requested a long time ago by somebody in Wisconsin, and appreciate that listener, thanks so much for kind of keeping us informed on this one. And this is the case of Wisconsin versus Stephen James Weiss. And Weiss is a sexual offender. He's. He's pled no contest to these things. So I think I feel comfortable saying that he was a guy who worked in IT At Frater Hospital in West Bend, Wisconsin. And Froeder is a kind of. A major kind of hospital chain, I take it to be in Wisconsin. So there's several different ones, but the one in West Bend is where he worked, and he also worked at the Freighter Clinic, which has since been torn down. So he. I'm not going to get into all the disgusting details. There were so many, and we covered this on previous episodes, but this guy was taking pictures of teenagers in his apartment's pool. He was stalking people. He was stalking children. He was surreptitiously taking pictures of children, surreptitiously taking pictures of women in their rooms that he could kind of see across the way. He was stealing women's menstrual products from work. He was the most. Perhaps he was putting his own bodily fluids in women's food at work. And one of the most significant things is he installed a camera in the employee bathroom at his workplace and was filming women use the bathroom without. Without their consent or knowledge. So the. The. The sheer magnitude of what this guy was doing cannot be understated. There was just, like, constant stalking, you know, sexual misconduct. Just really, honestly pretty disgusting to read about it. So he ended up pleading no contest to 31 counts. Before we go on, what does no contest mean?
- [38:55]
Kevin Greenlee
No contest is kind of like a halfway house or a halfway point between you're not saying you're guilty, you're not saying you're Innocent. You're basically saying, I'm not going to contest these charges. So you're basically acknowledging, okay, I think the state can prove their case. I'm not going to contest it. But you're not formally saying you did it.
- [39:19]
Anya Cain
Is there any benefit to doing that versus, like, just saying I did it?
- [39:25]
Kevin Greenlee
If there's possibilities of civil suits, you know, that's one issue.
- [39:28]
Anya Cain
There's, you know, okay, well, yeah, so he was doing these things from 2015 to 2019, gets busted and. And now he has since, based on those 31 charges, he's been sentenced to 44 years in prison and then 35 additional years with extended supervision. Given that he's in his late 40s, this is a pretty significant sentence. I don't know how things work in Wisconsin as far as, like, offender, you know, like, how. How long you end up being there. Some states, you know, 44 years doesn't necessarily mean 44 years. It can, you know, this time off for good, good behavior and things like that. But obviously, again, a pretty significant sentence. It kind of reminded me a little bit of the Keg Incline case here in Indiana, where you just had this kind of really prolific sexual offender doing all these kinds of, like, really just disgusting things. And, you know, oftentimes when you see that, you don't necessarily think that person's going to get a long sentence because that just tends to not be how things work. But if prosecutors can really put together a strong recommendation that's based on the law and sort of stacks up these different charges, then you can end up getting a pretty long sentence. So Weiss got a long sentence. I imagine that's a relief to his victims and people in that community. And that is kind of the end of that saga, I think. So that's. That's good. But is this.
- [40:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Is it also the end of the episode?
- [40:55]
Anya Cain
I think it's the end of the episode, too. I guess just any, buy our shirts if you want. If you don't.
- [41:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Actually, even if you don't go ahead and do it.
- [41:03]
Anya Cain
Kevin. Trying to manipulate them with your lawyerly ways.
- [41:07]
Kevin Greenlee
My lawyerly tricks. And I feel also I should apologize because we talked the last couple weeks. We're doing an appearance in Columbus, and a number of you got excited about that, very kindly. And it sold out very, very quickly. Much more quickly than I thought. I thought I'd have to come on this program for weeks and talk, talk up Columbus, Indiana. And I think me mentioning Sahara coast, the ice cream parlor, is what really pushed us over the edge. So it sold out very quickly. And as a result, a number of people who wanted to come and who we would have loved to have seen there are not going to be able to come. So I apologize for that in the future. We're trying to figure out if and when we do another live event. We're trying to figure out a way to make it more easy for more people to get access.
- [41:55]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And you know, I mean, we're hoping the book's coming out. The book we're doing.
- [42:01]
Kevin Greenlee
The book is coming out. We're not hoping the book is coming out.
- [42:03]
Anya Cain
I mean, the book is coming out, but we're hoping, you know, we can do events around that. So we really hope that we get to see each and every one of you at some point because that would be fun. It would be nice to meet you guys. We really enjoy sort of talking to you, but it's like a one way conversation. Right now. We're just like talking at you. You're sitting there shaking your head, thinking, why can't I get into word edgewise? But maybe eventually you will so you can meet us in person.
- [42:28]
Kevin Greenlee
I think our listeners understand they're listening to a recording, shaking their head ruefully.
- [42:32]
Anya Cain
These guys just never shut up. They are just yapping and yapping.
- [42:42]
Kevin Greenlee
So are you suggesting we start having long pauses in our episodes for people.
- [42:45]
Anya Cain
To talk back to us and now what do you think?
- [42:50]
Kevin Greenlee
That's a great point. I can't believe Ani and I didn't think about that.
- [42:55]
Anya Cain
Thanks for letting us know. Oh, man. But yeah, we had fun. Well, was there anything else that we had to do or. I don't know.
- [43:11]
Kevin Greenlee
We said even if you don't want them, you should buy the shirts. Right?
- [43:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Is that a. Is that an order from you?
- [43:19]
Kevin Greenlee
Sure, why not? That was not an order.
- [43:23]
Anya Cain
It's not madness gone to your head. Well, we hope you guys all stay safe and have a nice weekend and just let us know if there's ever a case you want to cover or a tip you have on a case or inside knowledge. We always appreciate getting those.
- [43:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, let us know if there's a case you want us to cover.
- [43:38]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Wait, didn't I just say that?
- [43:40]
Kevin Greenlee
I thought you say let us know if there's a case you want to cover.
- [43:43]
Anya Cain
Oh, yeah, if you. I think I was saying you want us. I don't know what I said. Yeah, if you guys want to start a podcast, make some bad decisions.
- [43:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Anja has a spreadsheet.
- [43:55]
Anya Cain
I don't.
- [43:56]
Kevin Greenlee
What don't you have like a tips or Something.
- [43:59]
Anya Cain
It's called a PowerPoint, sir.
- [44:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Ah. It's all the same spreadsheet that's not.
- [44:03]
Anya Cain
Going to razzmatize people. That's what a PowerPoint's for. So. But, yeah, but we appreciate you guys listening. Seriously. It's, it's, it's fun and it's fun to get to engage with you. And in case some of you probably have noticed, but I'm on a massive, massive email trip to email back people as part of our backlog that we've gotten. Unfortunately, since trial, it's gotten worse. So if you send us an email like a year ago and you suddenly get a response, don't worry about it. I mean, you can respond, but I'm that. Apologies for the delay.
- [44:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. Ani's been working very hard. She, she actually has gone all the way back and she's been responding to people even for like 2022.
- [44:39]
Anya Cain
I've been going nuts. People are going to be horrified, shocked. But I just feel bad when people write us and we don't get back to them. So I like to make that right and that's good for my mental health right now. So we don't need to talk anymore about it.
- [44:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Just hit the button. Hit the button. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [45:15]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [45:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [45:50]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [46:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman. But can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?
- [46:31]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs. Really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [46:56]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [46:59]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [47:01]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [47:02]
Anya Cain
Also, like, I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a, you're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [47:37]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [47:39]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.
- [47:43]
Kevin Greenlee
You just made me sound awful. So. No, I, I wash my clothes.
- [47:46]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
- [47:47]
Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [47:48]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [47:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.
- [47:57]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quinns.com msheet that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com M S H E-E-T.