The Cheat Sheet: Mushrooms and Melees

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary: "The Cheat Sheet: Mushrooms and Melees"

Release Date: July 11, 2025

Hosts:

• Áine Cain – Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee – Attorney

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Introduction to the Episode

The episode begins with Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee setting a somber tone, indicating that this installment will delve into particularly heinous and distressing cases. They emphasize the seriousness of the topics ahead, preparing listeners for intense discussions without the usual light-hearted banter.

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1. Flora, Indiana Arson Fire (2016)

Timestamp: [04:58 - 10:59]

Overview:
In 2016, a tragic arson fire in Flora, Indiana, claimed the lives of four young sisters: Kayana Davis, Kiara Phillips, K. Rayleigh MacDonald, and Kiani Welch. The case remains unsolved and has been frequently mentioned alongside the Delphi and Burger Chef murders due to their geographical and temporal proximity in Carroll County.

Key Points:

• The FBI's ongoing involvement includes door-knocking and public inquiries, indicating persistent efforts to solve the case.
• Áine Cain remarks, “It’s a sign to me that if the FBI is kind of tipping off the media, hey, guys, we’re going to be up there. That’s good” ([08:17]).
• They discuss the inherent challenges in prosecuting arson cases, primarily due to evidence destruction by fire.

Notable Insights:

• The hosts clarify misconceptions about the FBI's presence, noting that federal agents have been involved for years, countering recent media portrayals.
• Kevin Greenlee emphasizes the importance of public tips, advising listeners to provide concrete information rather than speculative theories ([10:05]).

Conclusion:
Áine expresses a heartfelt hope for justice for the four sisters, highlighting the community's ongoing grief and desire for resolution.

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2. Sarasota Springs Double Murder, Utah (March 2023)

Timestamp: [11:33 - 18:27]

Overview:
In March 2023, a double murder occurred in Sarasota Springs, Utah. A 17-year-old girl discovered her mother, Jessica Lyman, and her 8-year-old brother, Eli Painter, gravely injured. The 15-year-old brother, initially present, survived but provided conflicting statements during the investigation.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain details the crime scene, noting disturbing evidence such as dried semen on sheets and mismatched fishnet stockings found in both bedrooms ([15:27]).
• Surveillance footage revealed a masked individual near the residence at 2:30 AM, bearing a mask similar to one found in the 15-year-old's room.
• Text messages from the 15-year-old exhibited extreme hostility towards his mother, raising suspicions about his involvement.

Notable Insights:

• Kevin Greenlee finds the case haunting, particularly the handwritten note stating, “this is a murder story” ([16:36]).
• The hosts ponder why no arrests have been made, speculating on the investigative hurdles presented by the lack of concrete evidence.

Conclusion:
The episode underscores the complexity of the case, emphasizing the need for vigilant public cooperation to aid in solving the murders.

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3. Connecticut Teenager Trial – Raul Valle vs. James McGrath (May 2022)

Timestamp: [23:23 - 34:20]

Overview:
Raul Valle, a teenager, was accused of stabbing four individuals during a chaotic party scuffle in Connecticut, resulting in the death of 17-year-old James McGrath. The trial concluded with Valle being acquitted of major charges, sparking public outcry.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain describes the incident where Valle allegedly used a knife in what he claims was self-defense amidst a violent brawl ([25:00]).
• Witnesses provided conflicting accounts, with some alleging Valle instigated the violence by returning to the party despite knowing he and his friends were unwelcome.
• The jury’s partial verdict acquitting Valle on charges like murder and intentional manslaughter was met with surprise and dissatisfaction from the community.

Notable Insights:

• Kevin Greenlee discusses the broader issue of increasing difficulty in obtaining guilty verdicts in certain cases, reflecting on societal shifts in perceptions of justice ([28:22]).
• The hosts debate the role of "beyond a reasonable doubt" in juries' decisions, questioning if emotional biases influence verdicts.

Conclusion:
The acquittal remains controversial, highlighting systemic challenges in the criminal justice system and the delicate balance between legal standards and public sentiment.

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4. Michigan Supreme Court Decision on Juvenile Sentencing

Timestamp: [34:20 - 46:52]

Overview:
A recent Michigan Supreme Court ruling has retroactively overturned mandatory life without parole sentences for individuals who were 19 or 20 years old at the time of committing first-degree murder. This decision impacts several high-profile cases, including that of John Ortiz Kehoe and the 2000 murder of Willie Jones.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain explains the retroactive nature of the decision, requiring prosecutors to reassess past convictions and potentially seek sentence modifications ([43:48]).
• The case of Willie Jones involves brutal abduction, robbery, and murder, with initial sentences being life without parole now subject to reduction ([46:14]).
• Kevin Greenlee expresses discomfort with the retroactive decision and the limited time frame prosecutors have to address existing cases, noting potential legislative responses ([46:52]).

Notable Insights:

• The hosts discuss the moral and ethical implications of sentencing young offenders, balancing neurological development considerations with the severity of crimes.
• They highlight the community’s mixed reactions, with victims’ families seeking justice against the backdrop of legal reforms aimed at rehabilitation.

Conclusion:
The episode delves into the tension between evolving legal standards for juvenile offenders and the unyielding demand for justice from affected communities, emphasizing the complexity of balancing these interests.

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5. Australian Poisoning Case – Aaron Patterson (2023)

Timestamp: [47:00 - 69:48]

Overview:
Aaron Patterson, an Australian woman, poisoned multiple guests at a lunch party on July 29, 2023, resulting in the deaths of her parents-in-law, sister-in-law, and brother-in-law. Only her estranged husband, Simon Patterson, survived.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain narrates the event where Aaron served a beef tenderloin dish laced with mushroom paste, leading to severe illness and death among the guests ([58:00]).
• Surveillance footage and inconsistent testimonies raised suspicions against Aaron, particularly her suspicious behavior and changing stories about the source of the mushrooms.
• During the trial, Aaron’s defense strategy of taking the stand was critiqued as ineffective, leading to her conviction on all counts ([65:06]).

Notable Insights:

• The hosts explore the lack of clear motive, with preliminary investigations pointing to domestic discord and past attempted charges against Aaron for similar offenses.
• Kevin Greenlee reflects on the nature of motivation in criminal behavior, citing examples like Ted Bundy to illustrate that horrific acts often lack rational justifications ([64:30]).

Conclusion:
The conviction of Aaron Patterson serves as a chilling reminder of the randomness of violence and the challenges in prosecuting crimes devoid of clear motives, highlighting the depths of human depravity.

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Closing Remarks

As the episode concludes, Áine and Kevin reflect on the distressing nature of the cases discussed, reiterating the importance of understanding the complexities behind each crime. They share a personal anecdote about a recent car trouble incident, using it as a metaphor for unexpected dangers, and emphasize the significance of personal safety and vigilance.

Final Thoughts:

• The hosts encourage listeners to engage with the show by submitting cases and tips, fostering a community dedicated to uncovering truth and seeking justice.
• They also briefly discuss their personal interests, such as comic books and the upcoming Superman movie, providing a light-hearted end to a heavy episode.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain: “We don’t need a motive in most situations and certainly not in this one to get anywhere with a murder case.” ([65:06])
• Kevin Greenlee: “There are not reasons good enough that will make you say, ah, this makes sense.” ([64:30])

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Final Notes

The episode "The Cheat Sheet: Mushrooms and Melees" from the Murder Sheet podcast offers a deep dive into some of the most unsettling and complex true crime cases across the United States and Australia. Through meticulous analysis and heartfelt discussion, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with comprehensive insights into each case, urging a thoughtful contemplation of justice, motive, and the human psyche.

If you're interested in more in-depth true crime coverage, thoughtful legal analysis, and expert interviews, MurderSheet.com is your go-to podcast.

Transcript

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Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet content warning this episode contains discussion of topics like rape, cannibalism and murder. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going abroad. Mostly we're staying in the United States, though. We're going to be going to our home state of Indiana. We're going to Utah, Connecticut, Michigan and then Australia. So we're going all around. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Mushrooms and melees it. Let's start out in Indiana. This is close to home on a number of fronts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is home.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, this. This case is too. And I mean, interestingly enough, you and I usually end up picking a case like one of at least one case in the Cheat Sheet that's like not so bleak. But all of our episodes, all of our cases today are pretty horrible and bleak. So that's kind of interesting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Tells you about where we are mentally.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not gonna be a lot of laughs at this point.

[Anya Cain]

No, no. There's not gonna be any weird sports teams asides. So I just wanna. I wanna be very upfront about that before we get started. So this first one is this. This case that has long been something we've been aware of and sort of looked at. We have not really covered it in any depth for a couple of reasons. But this is the Flora, Indiana arson fire that claimed the lives in 2016 of four little sisters. These four beautiful, adorable children. Kayana Davis, Kiara Phillips, K. Rayleigh MacDonald and Kiani Welch. These are four little girls, four sisters, and they were all killed in this horrible house fire. And it still remains unsolved. One of those cases that gets brought up a lot in conjunction with the deli murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Because both of these horrible events happened in Carroll County, a pretty rural area, and they happened in close proximity. But one thing that we've found it difficult to parse is that a lot of people connect them with completely incorrectly and inappropriately. In my view. I don't think these cases are in any way linked. It's just two horrible events that happened to happen in close proximity, you know, time wise and location wise, but certainly deserves attention. But it's one of those cases where we've never felt we've had much to add to what's already out there in the mainstream press. So we sort of for. We don't like to cover cases just to cover them, you know, like you don't. Oh, here. Here's all the information other people gathered. What's. You know, it just felt like not a good thing to do. But there have been developments that have come out in the mainstream press recently that we confirmed, which is that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has agents in Flora or had agents in Florida Flora recently knocking on doors, asking the public questions about what happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gosh. Anya that sounds like a pretty big deal. Is it?

[Anya Cain]

No. I mean, no. And so news wise, it's not really a big deal because we've been aware that federal investigators have been in this case for a very long time, like years. So the framing of this as like the FBI has arrived is not accurate. They've been there for a while. They've been helping Indiana State Police have the case. They became the lead several weeks after it happened. I believe they took over from Carroll county and then the FBI. I think the ATF has been involved. Homeland Security, there's been. The thing you have to understand about arson cases is that they're very, very difficult to prosecute and investigate. Why? Why would that be?

[Kevin Greenlee]

One obvious reason is the evidence gets destroyed in fire.

[Anya Cain]

Exactly. By the very nature of the fire. By the very nature of the crime. Rather, it's destructive. It destroys evidence. It's hard to prove. So the reason I do think this is a positive thing that we're seeing, though, even though it's not really new, even though it's kind of presented by the media is new, is it's a sign to me that if the FBI is kind of tipping off the media, hey, guys, we're going to be up there. That's good, because they're going back and they're talking to people and they're keeping it alive. And they are continuously pushing for answers. And by including the media in this, it's basically letting more people know, hey, we're up here. Maybe relationships have changed. Maybe things are different now. Maybe you saw something and you want to talk about it. So I think that's all great. So it's a, it's a good development in that sense. When I see people sort of thinking it's a really, really big deal just because the FBI is here, it's like, again, they've been here. But again, that doesn't mean it's not nothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It.

[Anya Cain]

It. It shows that they're continuously working on it. And I really do pray that these four beautiful children get justice because it's, it's really horrible what happened to them. And it's. It's upsetting that this is still unsolved. So I will read the tip number that the FBI has posted. I will just say this. In cases like this, you know, what they really want to hear from is people who have information on the ground. You know, I conjecture theories that's maybe better to share with, like us. If you want us, like, send us, like, hey, here's what I think might have happened. That's all cool and we can have a discussion with you about that. I just think in the case of like tipping stuff to law enforcement, it should reach the threshold of like what you know or what you've experienced firsthand. Not like investigative suggestions and not like you know, putting it together in your head. Because I think that's just maybe better for a true crime setting. Does that make sense, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That makes sense.

[Anya Cain]

Not to say that's invalid. It's just maybe that would be not the best thing for the FBI to have. It's better to have like, oh my neighbor said this or like oh, I saw these people doing this right after. Like that's just a little bit more concrete. So that number is 1-800-225-5324. So that is the FBI tip line for this. And they're taking anonymous tips too. So keep that in mind. If you might have something that you're scared to share, you can be anonymous. So that's, that's what's happening in Indiana. Shall we go to Utah?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's go to Utah. This is my sources for this were KSL and also the heraldextra.com and this is some information was recently released via the release of some search warrants on a double murder that happened in Sarasota Springs, Utah back in March. And some of the details that were released in this search warrant I just found really, really haunting and memorable. So I'd like to share this case with you. It's not one we previously covered. I believe so all the way back, as I say, in March of this year, March 28th in fact, about a little after 10 in the morning, 17 year old girl goes home and in the townhouse she calls home, she finds her mother, Jessica lyman and her 8 year old brother Eli Painter lying unconscious and bleeding from the head. And she obviously calls police and she lets them know there's also the possibility that her 15 year old brother may also be in the home. So the eight year old is pronounced dead at the scene. Ms. Lyman, who is 44, died a few days later at the hospital and there was indeed the 15 year old brother was also in the home. He said he'd been in his room napping, says he didn't hear anything. One interesting thing that came out was one of the officers on the scene asked him if there were any weapons in the home and the boy said, well, I don't know about any guns in the house. And what's interesting about that is at that time he had not been told that a gun was the Murder weapon. Let's talk a little bit more about this crime scene. Jessica Lyman's underwear was pulled down around her knees and dried semen was found on the sheets near where she had been laying. Another detail that's kind of haunting is that they found a variety of items in both her bedroom and, and the bedroom of the 15 year old. One of which was a matching pair of fishnet stockings. And one of these was found in her room and the other one was found in the young man's room. And also in his room. There were several pairs of small female panties in his room. They also discovered two BB gun pistols, pistol plate carriers, a handwritten note which talked about things like DNA and firearm testing. They also found another handwritten note which said, quote, this is a murder story, end quote. Another interesting wrinkle is that surveillance footage provided by a neighborhood shows a masked person in the vicinity of the residence around 2:30 in the morning. And the mask that the person is seen wearing in the video is similar to a mask that was discovered in the 15 year old's room.

[Anya Cain]

Weird.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Another wrinkle is they got some text messages from the young man's phone. The 15 year old's phone and his exchanges with his mother, the woman who was murdered are very angry and profane. He says things like, I wish I died in your stomach. He calls her a witch, says he's happier when he's not around her, and things of that nature. And as we record, the Sarasota Springs police have yet to identify any suspect in the case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, what is the purpose of releasing this warrant at this time? Like, I mean, like charges obviously haven't been filed against anyone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Charges haven't been filed?

[Anya Cain]

I'm not sure I would say that given what this warrant includes. It certainly paints a pretty strong picture of what they're looking at though.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It certainly shows where the investigation is headed. I would be curious if they had analyzed the semen stains for DNA. And there's something about that, that note being discovered in the 15 year old's room saying this is a murder story. That's just something about that is really haunting to me.

[Anya Cain]

Some of the things that he messaged his mother are pretty extreme. I don't know. I wasn't really a particularly rebellious teen, I guess, but I can't imagine there's a bunch of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want to read some of the other things?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, can I? So this is from one of the articles you posted. I'm just going to read some of them. I don't like you go away. Okay, that's not really that big of a deal. Honestly. That's pretty mild. Then do you need to learn how to shut your mouth? I'm more happy when I'm not around you. Shut up, witch. Do you know how insignificant you really are to my life? Very insignificant. And I wish I died in your stomach. All taken together, that's kind of disturbing. I think. I. Well, I don't know. I wouldn't have gotten away talking to my parents like that when I was 15. I would have gotten. That would not have flown. I don't think it would have flown with your parents either.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

So I find that interesting and odd. Certainly pointing some tension, obviously with teens and parents is always going to be tensions and saying things like, go away. I don't like you. That's really not that big of a deal to me. But if all I wish I died in your stomach is pretty extreme.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is, it is. It's certainly there's some. As I say, there's disturbing and haunting details and I'm very curious about this case and it's one that I'm going to keep a very close eye on in the future.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I'd be curious of why hasn't there been an arrest yet? You know, what do they. What do investigators in this situation feel that they need in terms of procuring evidence in order to move forward to charges and an arrest? Whereas, you know, what are they. What are they looking at with that? I'd be very curious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sometimes we mess up technology on this.

[Anya Cain]

Podcast, one time, if anyone remembers this, we made a reference to a train whistle but accidentally edited out the train whistle sound so nobody knew what we were talking about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have not recovered from that.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think I ever will.

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So do you want to. I think we're going to Connecticut yet. Next.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. This is a case you found?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, well, actually I didn't find it. It was a listener request. Somebody who asked us to talk about it on a Patreon live and I'd never heard of it, or at least I wasn't super aware of it, and they suggested we kind of look into it. So I did. And thanks to that listener for suggesting it. It's definitely an interesting one. And it's one that kind of came to a conclusion that surprised some people very recently. So my sources for this are WSFB and the C T post and Fox 9. Actually not. Not Fox 9 that was just thrown in there. Whoops. That's a different case entirely. So ignore the Fox 9 bit. But this is something that dates back to May 14, 2022. And it's a kind of a complicated story that sort of touches upon things like, you know, self defense, you know, like things of like duty to retreat and whatnot. But this was a situation where you have like a lot of witnesses, you have a lot of chaos. And what ended up happening was a teenager named Raul Valle. He was accused of at a party stabbing four people in a kind of a large scuffle, a brawl between teenage boys and killing one of them who he stabbed in the heart. And the one who did not survive was a young man, a 17 year old named James McGrath or Jimmy. And he was a popular lacrosse Player, by all accounts, a great kid. By all accounts, just. Just a really lovely person. He was not throwing punches. He was not. He's sort of an innocent bystander to the extent that he's not like, fighting people in this. He's just kind of in the middle of it. So he gets stabbed in the heart and he gets killed. And turns out that Vale and his friends had previously gotten into a fight at a different house party that day with a bunch of kids from St. Joseph's High School. Then they go to a second party, they get into a fight with the kids from Shelton High School, and valet didn't bring the knife. The story that was given, well, he told a conflicting story from other witnesses, but witnesses say that he asked for the knife in the car prior to this sort of final, fatal confrontation. He says his friend in the car just gave it to him just like, as a possibility. He claims that they went into the second party to, like, make peace or whatnot. He also claims that that party's host, like, attacked his car and, like, sprayed them and stuff. It's just one of those things. Like, it's like, it's really tragic because if there hadn't been a knife there, it would have just been like teenage drama, people fighting. I mean, not good and certainly dangerous. And certainly the amount of, like, alcohol these kids were consuming and the kind of wild, out of control nature of all this is disturbing. But take away the knife and everyone goes home at least. And so, you know, his argument was, hey, like, there was this chaos. I was in fear for my life. You know, I'm kind of like, using the knife in self defense. And a tragedy ensued. And what prosecutors said was, no, this is murder, or at least manslaughter. They kind of provided a number of different charges for the jury to look at. And jury deliberations happened starting July 3rd. They ended up sending a couple notes saying they were deadlocked on reckless manslaughter and assault charges. And they ended up coming back with a partial verdict in which they acquitted him of all of the major charges, including murder, intentional manslaughter, and assault. So one of our listeners asked us, what do we feel about this? And I mean, I. I think it's a situation where on the surface it seems a little surprising that he wasn't at least convicted of manslaughter, because I think once you bust out a knife, regardless of the circumstances and you end up killing somebody who wasn't hitting you, that sort of feels like something that would be expected. But at the Same time the jury had all this evidence. They had all the time to, to look at this and see all the nuances. I, I've scouring social media. This does not seem to be a popular verdict. This seems a lot of people seem pretty upset about this, but I myself don't really. I kind of reserve judgment and obviously a jury's verdict is what, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What you gotta respect is what stands.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we haven't really followed the case, so. It is interesting that one comment I've heard from several different people over the last few months is, Is. Is that it appears that it is getting more and more difficult to get guilty verdicts in some cases.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I wonder if that's in certain states, frankly, or in certain cases or. I mean, in this case, the, the perpetrator, the guy did the stabbing. And no one, no one's disputing that he was the one doing the stabbing. Very young, kind of a chaotic situation. You know, I, maybe, maybe he's viewed as more sympathetic because of that. So. Yeah, I, I think it is. I think people misunderstand what beyond a reasonable doubt means. And I think also, I don't know, there's kind of like a. Sometimes I feel with. People are like, oh, like I want to be absolutely sure and da, da, da, da, da. And I want basically like a angel from God to come down and tell me exactly what happened. It's like, that's not going to happen. Like, you know, you kind of. At some point you gotta like, make a common sense call. I think common sense is becoming less common. But I'm not saying that's what happened here because, you know, it's. It's possible that they just felt that this was such a chaotic environment. He. From what I was reading, it sounds like he chose to go back into a situation where he knew he and his friends were not gonna be welcome. But it also sounds like there were a lot of other people. Like the guy who gave him the knife and everyone's drunk. And it seemed like maybe there was an element of this where it's like they're kind. Maybe the jury was reacting to, well, he did the stabbing, but a lot of other people went into creating this situation that led to someone dying. So, you know, we don't feel it's fair to hang it all on him. Does. You know, I, I don't know. The jury hasn't come out and shared what their thoughts are. I'd love to talk to one of them if they're up to it. Like, I mean, I would just be curious. And, But I, I, I did see a lot of surprise. The, the, the general sentiment I got from people was this. Not necessarily lack of surprise, not necessarily surprised over not being convicted of murder, but surprised over the manslaughter. I think that's where people were like, well, I thought they'd convict him of something. And they hung on the lesser charges. It's not even clear if he'll be retried on those, although civil litigation against him is pending. And, yeah, it's very sad. I mean, it sounds like this Jimmy McGrath, you know, was a great kid. His father spoke outside the courthouse after the verdict. He said, quote, at the end of the day, the jury made their verdict. I'm not sure if they were in the same courtroom as we were all together, but that's the verdict, and we'll live with it. I can't even imagine that I'm standing here giving this part of the speech. I mean, I was ready for maybe manslaughter. I was not ready for not guilty. Yeah. So, I mean, it's very, very tragic. And at the end of the day, this young man is dead, and it's, it's horrible. Um, but as far as us having an opinion, I just, I, I don't really. It's just that, I guess reading about it, a little bit surprised, but maybe if I, like, looked into all the testimony and all the hours of witnesses coming forward, maybe I would be, like, less surprised. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we, at some point do an episode? You mentioned that this person was acquitted in a criminal court, but he still faces civil suits. Is it worth doing an episode on how that can be, how you can be acquitted of a crime but still find to be civilly liable?

[Anya Cain]

O.J. simpson, baby. Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's the most famous example. You know, why is that, why is that allowed? So maybe that's something that might be worth discussing. The O.J. simpson case is certainly the case that comes to my mind immediately.

[Anya Cain]

And like, I, I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm in a position at this point with true crime where I'm like, I don't, I, I don't feel juries get things wrong, right? Juries get things wrong. O.J. simpson was guilty of murdering Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson. So, I mean, like, jury, they got that wrong. They messed that up, like, for what? You know, I mean, I'm not saying the prosecution did a perfect job in that. And I also understand that there were, you know, the racial tensions around racism in the lapd, that kind of set that off. So I'm not. I understand all that, but he was guilty, so I don't feel like I'm in the camp of, like, oh, everything a jury does is valid, because we know juries have wrongfully convicted people, and I think juries have wrongfully acquitted people, but that's just the nature of the game. At the end of the day, I don't think, like, hurling abuse at a jury is right, even if you disagree with them. But I also don't think you have to just be like, no, that. That everything is great and valid. You know, I. I think you can kind of be like, well, I think they got this wrong, but I understand, you know, Like, I think we can be more nuanced about it. And so. Yeah, so with this one, I don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You just want everybody to come together?

[Anya Cain]

Well, no, it's just. I'm like, I. I see some people being like, well, the jury did it, so we can't talk about it anymore. It's like, no, you. Like, I don't know. I think you can, but. But that doesn't mean you should be, like, yelling at the jury, because I think you have to. You know, you have to consider that they were the ones who actually sat through all this testimony. They're the ones who had that experience. They're the ones who examined all the evidence, hopefully. And, you know, it. It. It is. It is the nature of the beast. But I. I don't. I don't know enough in this situation to feel like they got something, quote, unquote, wrong. It's surprising to me. But it's also something where I would really want to hear from one of the jurors there and say, okay, what, for you, was kind of the deciding factor of. He's not really culpable here. And because maybe it was just the level of chaos. I mean, I've seen sort of clips and videos, and it does seem very scary and chaotic, but at the same time, he went back into that situation. Seems like his testimony didn't really line up with testimony from other witnesses. So did that throw them a bit, or did they believe him over those other people? So I would just be really curious on hearing from them directly. So do you want to go to, I guess, Michigan?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're, like, asking me?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, I mean, are you just, like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Picking a state at random?

[Anya Cain]

Just random. Let's go up to Michigan. I love Michigan, so, I mean, like, I always enjoy it when we visit there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Michigan is a Fine state.

[Anya Cain]

It's our northern neighbor.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Northern neighbor. Great university there that one of your sisters attended.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And also, every one thing I find amusing about Michigan is every time we cross the border, it's immediately like, weed billboards everywhere. Like, you don't. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Billboards advertising marijuana.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which is legal there.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. It's not legal here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here in the great state of Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also, if I recall correctly, like, as soon as you cross over, don't you start seeing signs saying, like, oh, there was a prison near, so don't pick up any hitchhikers.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah, we always go past that, and it's like, you always get. It's like a really creepy side. You feel like you would see a sign like that in a horror movie, you know, like, I don't know, is this a problem?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, are there a lot of escaped convicts getting rides?

[Anya Cain]

See, like, a guy wearing a trench coat and, like, his, like, it's like his pants look orange. Just drive along. Don't worry about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Big metal ball attached to his foot.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know. I, I always feel. Yeah. I mean, I. But, but, no, but Michigan's great. And also, I think some of those prisons are definitely in Indiana, too. Right. Northern Indiana is like, I feel like, got a ton of prisons.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have you ever picked up a hitchhiker?

[Anya Cain]

Are. Are you kidding me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just, I'm just making conversation.

[Anya Cain]

Have I ever? Have I, a millennial woman who's into true crime ever picked up a hitchhiker? No. Okay. I've just tried to conversation. I would be disturbed. I, I. Oh, my God. When. When we were in a place recently where people were trying to hail a taxi that we were in. I guess, like, I don't know, maybe the light wasn't on. I thought they were trying to hitchhike for a minute, and I almost had a heart attack. I was like, what are you doing? And, oh, they. It's a. It's a. They're trying to hail a cab. But I was like, guys, like, I wanted to get out and, like, have, like, an intervention and just be like, come on. You don't, like, don't, like. This is super dangerous. Have you ever picked up a hitchhiker?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Once back.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You are so lucky you're not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Back in that dark period. Before I knew you, there was an occasion where I saw a young. Well, I saw a woman walking down the street.

[Anya Cain]

Now you sound like a potential murderer. I saw a hot lady hitchhiking and. Oh, yeah, what were You. What were you thinking?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was. I was, like, in my early 20s.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. Say no more. Jesus Christ. That's just ridiculous. I don't. I don't see anyone hitchhiking nowadays. I feel like it's not really a thing where we are in America right now. I know in some places, it's like, kind of like people, you know, are dependent on cars to get around. They don't have a car, they lose their license, and it can happen. So I'm not trying to shame people who do it. It just is very high risk.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You talk to people who were around in the 70s, and it sounds like that was regarded as, like, a legitimate way to travel across the country. Yeah, I'm just going to hitch rides.

[Anya Cain]

I understand. It's one of those things, like, most people who hitchhiked are fine, and they. They survived. It just. It just does seem crazy. It seems like a very high trust activity in this. In a society where, you know, someone might just, like, you know, kill you in their car and then murder, like, dump your body somewhere. So I don't. I. I. Have you ever considered hitchhiking?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

No, not. Nor have I. So. But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, there was one time.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God, what now? What are you doing past Kevin? What the hell?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I had car trouble, and someone, a person came and offered me a ride, and he was an army recruiter, and he just drove me to. He drove me to the army recruitment office and was like, I just want to get my tire fixed. And he was like, well, you know what? In the army, they'll teach you how to fix tires. And, like, no matter what I said, he would say, well, you can do that in the Army. He said, I just want to be a lawyer or do journalism. So, you know, Stars and Stripes. Stars and Stripes newspaper. And also, there's lawyers in the army. Huh. What do you say?

[Anya Cain]

Could be Tom Cruise and A Few Good Men.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So does that count as being picked up by a hitchhiker?

[Anya Cain]

It sounds like it counts as being kidnapped. Or was he, like, trying to conscript you or something?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He really wanted me. But obviously, you take a look at Kevin Greenlee, you think that's a super soldier?

[Anya Cain]

That is a super soldier.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We need that guy in our armed services.

[Anya Cain]

If only.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know why he saw me as such a plum pick.

[Anya Cain]

If only we saw you. If only we had you and Nam, Kevin would have gone differently. I. That's like. I just don't understand. Was he, like, cruising around, trying to find, like, stranded young men to, like, try to recruit like that just sounds really weird. So needless to say, it didn't work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Didn't work?

[Anya Cain]

No. I don't know. Oh, well. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What have we done?

[Anya Cain]

What have we done? Where are we? We need to hitchhike back to the point of this frigging episode.

[C]

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[Anya Cain]

We got stranded on the side of the road recently. Cause our tire. We had a blowout on the highway.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was the two of us and our dog.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So of course this is like we bring our dog. Cause we want. We were going to see Kevin's parents. And you know, Lanny is like one of those dogs where she loves us, but she's kind of like bored with us, you know, like we'll play with her and she'll be like, yeah, I don't know. And then like she meets random people in the street and she's like, I love you, you're the best people ever. And I'm like, oh my God, this is so offensive. But we wanted to bring her. She loves Kevin's parents so much and we're, you know, bringing her to see them and we were going to have dinner with them and then we get this like, you know, exploded tire. And I was really freaked out because that's. I've never had that happen to me before. And I just kept on thinking, what if they just find our car and we're gone and like Lanny's wandering on the side of the. I just kept on thinking about it true crime terms because I'm like, anxious. And then there's like big trucks zooming inches away from me. And I just kept thinking of like, this would be a really good setup for an episode of a case. But like, oh no. But we're the ones missing. So I don't know, I just. It was a stressful day, but Lani was actually a really good girl. She was very calm, considering I thought she was. Normally if we stop at a stoplight, she's crying and whining and it's like, oh my God, what a disaster. It's like, Lani, we have to stop. But in this situation, she was pretty stoic about the whole thing. So anyways, that's our story. We didn't get murdered, by the way, in case you were wondering.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're quite the racket.

[Anya Cain]

We didn't hitchhike either. And Kevin was not recruited into the army, so it all worked out. So let's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do I even do this case if we just wrap up the episode? Because it's like a dark case. How do we go from what we just did to this?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, just do it. You did the research. I mean, people are expecting darkness. It's a true crime show. I mean, and we, and I set them up in the beginning saying, hey, we're not going to have too many laughs here. And we had some laughs about hitchhiking just now. But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But did we, did anyone laugh? Is anyone even still listening?

[Anya Cain]

I think some of them are smiling at least. I don't know. I can't see them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think people are reassessing their decision to listen to this.

[Anya Cain]

I think actually we just got a bunch of unsubscribes. Just do, do your case and then I'll do my final case. I cannot not do my final case because the Australians are counting on me. So you do Michigan, then I'll do Australia.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, so my source for this is wwmt.com this I won't go into all of the details. I'll just do this quickly. You may recall that we covered that there was a decision by the Michigan Supreme Court that said people who were 19 or 20 who were convicted of first degree murder could not be given mandatory life without parole sentences in Michigan anymore. And it was a retroactive decision, which meant that if you were 19 or 20 at the time you committed a crime, your life sentence is no longer necessarily valid. And that the prosecutor, who is the prosecutor of the county where you committed your crime would have to make a decision whether or not he would want to go to the judges and try to convince them, no, no, this person who got this mandatory sentence, that sentence should still hold. This person still deserves the, the life sentence for their crime. And so because of this, out of Michigan, we see a lot of stories now about people who were convicted of horrible murders in the past when they were 19 or 20 and now face the possibility of getting released and prosecutors making efforts to keep them in incarcerated. And this particular case involves a man named John Ortiz Kehoe who committed a brutal murder of 18 year old Rose Larner. I'll spare you the details, but I'll.

[Anya Cain]

Just say they're bad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're bad. They're about as brutal as you can get. The prosecutor, prosecutor David Gilbert says homicides don't get worse than this. The victim's mother says, why should we have to go through this? I thought we were done with him. I thought the world was safe from him. But needless to say, prosecutor David Gilbert is making an effort to, to get this person's previous sentence to remain in force.

[Anya Cain]

I'm gonna, I know, I know we were somewhat critical of the Michigan court's decision here, especially making it retroactive. And I understand where they're coming from because I do believe that the science shows that people who are younger, in their early 20s, even their brains are not done developing. But I guess my question and when I look at the details of what they did to this girl, I'm going to say this. I think an 18, a 19 and a 20 year old would have their brains developed to know that this was not okay. You know, to me it's like it's not so much that they don't have any sort of point. I think they do, but I think the question is does to me the appropriate application to cases like this are not first degree murder. That has intent and you know, premeditation and this level of brutality. For me, something like this would be a little bit more helpful if like somebody knocked over a gas station and panicked when the clerk jumped up and shot them. That's somebody I do. I mean that's a hor that clerk law, you know, their family is going through it. That's a horrible, horrible murder that didn't need to happen. But I think somebody who does a crime like that is possibly capable of being rehabilitated and of, you know, there's not necessarily a lot of like horrific like torture in that kind of thing. It's like I think someone like that may have just made a mistake and doesn't excuse it and they should be punished. But maybe if you let them out at a certain point, they're not going to do it again and they might be able to actually contribute something to society and perhaps that can be a good thing rather than just keeping someone locked up. But in a case like this, like I, I, it's, it's horrible to read about. So what, I mean, what do you think? Do you think it's applicable for some cases and not others? Do you think it shouldn't have been done in the first place? What are your thoughts?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I not comfortable with the way the decision was made retroactive and the way it also imposed a deadline on the prosecutors where the prosecutors all over the great state of Michigan had a very limited amount of time to go through all of the cases their offices had prosecuted and find the cases that were applicable to this and make the determination whether or not they were comfortable with these people's sentences being reduced or not. I will note in terms of that deadline that the Michigan House of Representatives has begun work on a bill that would extend the deadline that was originally put forth by the Michigan Supreme Court.

[Anya Cain]

Good. Yeah, yeah, that's appropriate. I mean, because that was one big concern I had too. If you're going to do something this extreme, you should give people a lot of leeway in terms of dealing with it. You know, the whole thing just seemed very impractical in my opinion. But yeah, well, I mean I, I saw someone posted in our group one of the, one of the other cases that you know, took place like in Michigan. That was then they kind of looked at again. So thanks to that listener. This was actually the murder of 66 year old Willie Jones. And this was in Grand Rapids in 2000. He was abducted, he was carjacked, robbed and then stabbed with scissors and beaten to death and left in the trunk of his own car. I mean it's so horrible. And you know, they, his body was dumped. But a guy named Mark kopp who was 18 at the time, and then Joshua Rogers and Chad Molesky who are 17 were all sentenced to life without parole for felony murder, kidnapping, robbery and carjacking according to Wood TV. And then 18 year old James Rivero got 35 to 60 for carjacking, kidnapping, robbery and second degree murder. And Molesky and Rogers since had their sentence reduced to minimum of 35 years because Supreme Court of the United States ruled the life of that parole for people under 17 was cruel and unusual. And now cop is getting his sentence reduced. So people seem to have pretty mixed feelings about this sort of thing and I can understand why. Mr. Willie Jones deserved a lot a hell of a lot more than this. And, and what they did to him is, is, is really horrifying to a 66 year old man. I mean like what little cowards. But yeah. So this guy cop is now going to be eligible for parole in a decade. So he was resentenced in Kent county to 36.25 years to 60 years. So he'll be up for parole pretty soon. So let's go to Australia. This is, I want to say we have like a strong contingent of folks from Australia who listen to the show. Love you guys. I actually have family that lives in Australia, so shout out to my cousins. I've always wanted to go. We've never been to Australia, but I have an affection for the country because I've got family there. And this is the case of Australia recently. Like this is the case people were talking about. So we actually heard from a lot of listeners who wanted us to talk about it. I believe we did cover it in a past Cheat sheet. So now we're revisiting it and actually I really appreciated one of our listeners even like took us through like the kind of media landscape of Australia kind of breaking down, like what outlets have what biases and how they tend to operate. So thank you for that. And the, the, the network, the sources I used for this was actually the abc and this is not of course America's abc, this is the Australian abc. And I, I felt they were the most even keeled in depth. They had a lot of really good information so primarily relied on them. So those are my sources. Um, this is, centers around a woman named Aaron Patterson. By all accounts is just sort of this like regular person, regular mother, middle aged woman. She's in 2023, she's estranged from her husband, Simon Patterson. He's, you know, they're separated for a number of years. It seems like that was amicable, but over time maybe some tensions arose over child support and whatnot. So July, but like again, this is one of those cases where, you know, it's a reminder you don't, you don't need a motive in most situations and certainly not in this one to, to get anywhere with a murder case. So July 29, 2023, Aaron Patterson in has a lunch party, right? And she's, she invites her father in law, Don Patterson, her mother in law, Gail Patterson, and then Gail's younger sister Heather Wilkinson and her husband Ian also come. And Simon, who is Aaron's estranged husband, is invited. He declines to go. He texts her saying basically he's too uncomfortable to go. So but you know, the in laws show up and she prepares, Aaron prepares them a juicy beef tenderloin dish or you know, beef Wellington basically. But she also adds a sort of mushroom, mushroom paste to that. And as she tells it, she initially was kind of adding these store bought mushrooms and then she finds this Tupperware of dried mushrooms in the pantry and adds those too. But everyone enjoys the lunch and during it she actually announces to everyone that she believes she has cancer and it's going to be life threatening. So she's kind of getting the sympathy from everyone and everyone leaves. And I think even witnesses said Heather afterwards was telling people, oh, it was really nice, it was really good food. Unfortunately, later the people who are the lunch guests start falling severely ill, vomiting, diarrhea, like, you know, maybe at first it looks like food poisoning, but pretty quickly it becomes apparent this is something more serious. And pretty soon they're all suffering from multiple organ failure. And one thing that these lunch guests sort of point out or remember from this is that they all thought it was a little bit weird, or at least some of them noticed that Aaron had used a different plate than them. Like they all had gray plates and she had this kind of tannish orange plate. So, like, that's kind of weird. But then they were like, maybe she doesn't have a lot of plates. It's kind of weird. But honestly, we have a hodgepodge of plates. So I mean, like, it's not necessarily like. But anyways, they noticed that and they all start to die. I mean, it's horrible. So. So Gail and Don pass away, Heather passes away. Ian is the only one to survive who, who was sick. And Erin survives and she claims to people that she was also sick and she, you know, was going to the toilet and whatever, and it was really bad for her too. But the. But evidence came out during trial that she drove like a very long 180 kilometer round trip to like take her son to this flying lesson. And she had some story about like, well, I had to stop and like poop in the wilderness during that trip. And her son was like, I don't remember that. And I was sitting in the passenger seat. So she's kind of trying to claim that she was sick too. But she's also on surveillance footage buying like a chicken wrap sandwich and sour lollipops. And like, people remember her drinking coffee. So it's like, you know, she's saying, well, that's for other people. Or I was doing that by, you know, force of habit. And it just, you know, weird. So she starts claiming, you know, as this is being investigated, that she got the mushrooms that she used in the dish from a Woolworths grocery, but then she changes it to an Asian or Chinese grocery store. This is something you and I think kind of focus on in our initial coverage. We're like, that's kind of racist to be like, oh, you know, like, I got this poisonous thing at a Chinese store. It sort of feels like weird othering stuff. But she's, she's examined in the hospital. I thought this was kind of amusing. One witness said she just kind of had chapped lips, but she was in good health. There was not really any indication that she had been poisoned. And pretty quickly, when you have a situation where all these people die after your lunch that you prepared and then you're the only survivor, I think that's gonna be getting a lot of people interested in, you know, what you did. And there was a trial recently, right? Again, there was not Really a lot of motive discussed here. Although the 1, 1 ABC article I read noted that Crown Prosecutor Nanette Rogers, who is like cross examining and was kind of, you know, featured a lot in this article, kind of hinted at some discord between Aaron Patterson and her estranged husband. Messages where she called him a deadbeat to other people, where she kind of bashed his family. And interestingly enough at this trial, Erin Patterson herself took the stand. By the press accounts that I read, she was a like what, what her own defense team described as pedantic and blinking a lot and just an off putting presence. So why would you, what are the benefits of putting someone on the stand, Kevin, when you're a defense attorney, obviously it's a huge gamble.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a huge gamble. But the fact of the matter is, even though they know it's not necessary, and even though they know when a jury spends a trial looking at the defendant, they are wondering what's their story? Why aren't they coming up and explaining what really happened? If they're innocent, what do they have to hide? And the jury who is thinking those things may know intellectually whether there's a lot of good reasons to not take the standard, the defense doesn't have the burden, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But on some emotional level they want to hear the story. And so that is a reason why a lot of people do go ahead and take the stand. Also, a lot of people believe that, oh, I am so smart that I will be able to come across well and I will be able to deflect all of the questions I don't want to answer or deal with.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And in this situation, what, what the, the kind of analysis I, I looked at was that she essentially, I mean, she spent days up there on the stand, but they may have wanted to do this because she was, when she was interviewed by police, she was clearly lying a number of times. So it's like they can maybe try to undo some of that damage, explain away, you know, what was happening. And so in, in terms of the outcome of this. And again, this really captured the imagination of a lot of people because again, it's like it's not what you'd expect and it's this sort of like elaborate almost, you know, almost sounds like something out of a classic murder mystery fictional story of like, you invite all these people to a fancy luncheon, you prepare a fancy dish and then they all start dying. And it's like, you know, why? And they, I mean, these people died horrible deaths. I mean it's really really horrible. And their families emphasize that they really died with a lot of dignity. But it's just like. I mean, it's, It's. It's terrible. And this poor survivor, Ian, like, losing his wife is so many years like that. But, but anyways, so what. I guess this was, this was something where, from what we heard from our listeners and actually what I've seen on social media a bit, people were thinking this might have gotten a hung jury. They were like, kind of. People were anticipating that because there was this sort of idea that they felt that the jury instructions were a bit, you know, confusing or really pushed reasonable doubt over everything else and kind of were like, you know, intended to prevent further appeals, but also like, maybe kind of tip the scales a bit away from the prosecution. People were kind of, maybe this isn't going to go that way. And the jury came back after a number of days of deliberation, and they convicted her on all counts. So, I mean, she, she has appeals that she can take, you know, going forward and whatnot. But at the same time, you know, this was a resounding win for the prosecution here. They, I mean, they got her on murder and everything. So, yeah, definitely an intriguing case. Thank you to all our Australian friends for recommending it and kind of keeping us apprised of it. And I'll be curious to see, you know, what her defense team's strategy is going forward into the sort of appeal side of things. But, I mean, now that the case is over, I'll just. I mean, I. It seemed pretty clearly that she poisoned these people. She became, like, obsessed with mushrooms, was always posting about mushrooms and was telling people, like, she could identify mushrooms. I, I don't know why she did it. I mean, I think the fact that her estranged husband was supposed to come to this dinner is, Is, Is. Is interesting. And you might be thinking, well, if he was the target, why wouldn't she have changed face? But I'm not saying necessarily that he was the target. It seems like her tension with him and his side of the family, you know, lashing out, basically annihilating people, getting revenge, all that can come to mind. But I guess to me, and I'd be curious if you feel differently, Kevin, maybe this is a sign of burnout, I don't know, but I don't. I've. As I've. When I started out with this, I always wanted to know motive. Why are people doing this? What's going on? Why would you do this? I want to get in your head and tell me, like, why this would happen or why would a murderer behave this way? The more I go into this, the more I just. I'm like, I don't care. Why do I care what someone who's stupid enough to resort to violence or hurting other people or killing other people thinks? Like, I don'. Tit doesn't matter. It's just like people do all sorts of stupid stuff all the time, including murdering people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. There's a writer I really like, Stephen Vincenzi, and in one of his novels, he has the line, reasons don't matter. And to me, one of the things that means is, when you look at a horrible act, when you look at a horrible crime, is there any reason good enough that will make you say, ah, this makes sense? And I think not. There's not.

[Anya Cain]

And I think in some cases, maybe there is. Right? If you have a situation where you're like, somebody took a gun and shot this man, why? And then it turns out, well, that guy was lunging at him with a knife, okay, well, then, yeah, reason, self defense. That matters. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you look at someone like Ted Bundy and someone says, well, you know, back in the day, there was a lady with long hair who was a little bit mean to him, so that's why he killed all the ladies with long hair. But that doesn't.

[Anya Cain]

Doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, it's like, no, he just wanted to. Everything went towards satisfying his.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also my problem with that is that sort of thinking basically says, oh, the woman who was mean to him once, allegedly all the murders are her fault. Yeah, no, it's. It's all. It's all Bundy's fault.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's because he had, you know, disgusting sexual proclivities to want to, you know, be a necrophile and stuff. I mean, like, that. It's not it. But, yeah, I just. I guess I. So, I mean, I would encourage people. When you're looking at true crime cases, motive is interesting, but it's not necessary to get a conviction, as this case certainly proves, because why she did this is baffling. She seemed to have a nice life. I mean, she had kids. Like, you know, not everything was perfect, obviously, with her marriage and whatnot, but it seems pretty shocking that someone would resort to this. But. But people do. I mean, it's just. It's. Some people are just not right. It's just. But I mean, I can understand why this gripped Australia because it really is a bizarre. I mean, it just sound. Doesn't it just sound like something Crafted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

By a fiction writer like Agatha Christie.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, Agatha Christie style situation. But, you know, I, I, I appreciate everybody kind of talking us through and it's kind of interesting, like, you know, you kind of, as you read about some of this, you sense of some of the differences between Australian cases. It sounds like it's much more strict in Australia as far as media outlets being free to report on things. Right, right. Like, you can't just, it's not willy nilly like it is here. You kind of like, have to, you know, wait till the end of the trial to, I think, I guess, like, really kind of be more of like, okay, yeah, she's definitely guilty. Which, you know, I think also when.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We talk about reasons, we have to understand the difference between reasons and excuses.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also this is something that's going to betray something about my background and my interests. But another thing that pops into my head in situations like this, and we're talking about, why did this person do this? Or why did this person turn evil? In the old Superman stories from the 1960s, Superman's arch enemy is Lex Luthor. And in the comic books, the reason why he turned evil was that because there was an accident once, he blamed Superboy for causing his hair to fall out. And that is such an inherently stupid reason that it just makes you think, well, if his hair had never fallen out, he probably would have turned evil anyway and just come up with a different reason or a different excuse. So sometimes when I hear people talking about their reasons or their excuses, I just think to myself, ah, that's a Lex Luthor thing.

[Anya Cain]

That's, I love that you think that. I love the way your brain works. I remember when I was a kid, I grew up watching Phineas and Ferb with my little sisters. And the similar thing happens where one of the villains, Doofenshmirtz, like, they have, they meet an alternate universe version of him where he's much more evil. And the one who's like the good one, he had all this childhood trauma. Like, both of his parents didn't show up to his birth and all this stuff. And like, he was raised by ocelots. And like, did they just, you know, it's, it's, it's a nightmare. But he's like a pretty nice dude at the end of the day, even though he's evil. And then this other guy, he, like, lost his toy train and then he went, like, became like a world dictator. It was like, horrible. And it was like, you know it. At a certain point, you're right. Like It. It really doesn't matter. And I will say this, though, one thing, I was kind of like, okay, is this an isolated incident? Did this woman just do this one day? Because that makes it more baffling. But what some of our listeners told us and what the media is sort of noting now is that Simon, the Patterson, the surviving estranged husband, now ex husband, I imagine, you know, he had had a number of kind of bizarre hospital stays and health issues over time. And at first there were actually more attempted murder charges against her over some of this in the beginning, although I think those kind of fell away. But when you look at this, sometimes. Sometimes a kind of bizarre event can reveal, oh, there were past behaviors that no one picked up on. This did not come out of the blue. It's just that there's not really enough evidence to charge those and adjudicate those. And so I think that's important to remember. And, like, we may never get answers on that. Right. In a lot of cases, but if you do dig deep, there might be certain threads that you can pull that don't explain it, but may hint at what is to come later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Exactly. Are we done with that case?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're leaving Australia. Thank you to everyone who recommended this one. Thanks to everyone who recommends cases. We always appreciate hearing from you guys because it really tells us what we can focus on and it allows us to kind of learn about some interesting cases around the country and around the world.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And let's talk about Superman, because this underscores how patient Anya can be because there's this new Superman movie coming out, and I'm not going to like this movie because it's not made for me. What I want is, like, the Superman from before I was born, like, 1958. So I'm going to be very pedantic and say, this is not the movie for me. So I shouldn't even go see it. Shouldn't even waste my time or my money. But on the other hand, it has crypto in it.

[Anya Cain]

Crypto, the super dog.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I've been agonizing. Do I go to this movie? This is going to disappoint me, or do I not? And Anya has been listening to these, agonizing my ponderings, my Hamlet, like, equivocating.

[Anya Cain]

I actually. We were walking Lanny the other day, and I actually compared to Kevin to Hamlet, but over stupid stuff. Because he's not agonizing over whether to take revenge for his father. He's agonizing over whether we should go to this frigging Superman movie. And I was just like, just go and see it. And then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she says that Anya says that knowing that if the movie is two hours long afterwards, I will spend at least six hours saying what was wrong with it. I'll say, well, you know, anya, back in 1958, they would have done it differently, you know.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question though. This may cause when the thing is, people, like we mentioned that you like superheroes or Superman, you know, and you. And people think, ah, yeah, you know, what'd you think of? And it's like, no, no, no, no. He likes silver age Superman as envisioned by. What's that guy? Mort Wisinger.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wisinger. Your Jack Kirby's, your Steve Ditkos. I maintain that very few good comics were published after I was born.

[Anya Cain]

He is very he mainstream.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love, I love non superhero comics that are more recent.

[Anya Cain]

Oh yeah, you like non superhero, but you're. You like, you love like superheroes so much that you hate superhero comics by and large.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the great Kelly sue, we love her.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, love Kelly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there are great work being done.

[Anya Cain]

To Kelly sue deconnick. Listen to our episode with her. We talked to her about her wonderful comic fml, which I'm obsessed with. So you gotta listen to that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also her husband has done some great Jimmy Olsen stories.

[Anya Cain]

Oh yeah, I love Jimmy Olsen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's not all comics. Comics I don't like.

[Anya Cain]

You're very snobby. In fairness, you are very snobby about what you like. You have. It has to meet a very high Kevin specific.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think today's comic book industry, we need more Kelly sue. We need more Matt Fraction.

[Anya Cain]

Aw, there you go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But yes, I'm gonna say, well, you know, Anya, this movie doesn't have this and it doesn't have that.

[Anya Cain]

Can I ask you though, because I. People may be wondering, like, what. What do you want out of a Superman story? What is a Superman story for Kevin? Like if. If you basically had been able to kidnap James Gunn and make him do what you wanted to with the Superman story, what would that have looked like? Because I want to see if that would have any mainstream appeal at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Back in 1958 through like 1963 or 1964, they would occasionally do what they called a three part novel in the comic books where the entire issue of 24 pages told one story. They call that a three part novel. So any one of those, there's a great story where Superman, through a time traveling accident, actually accidentally gets sent back to his home planet of Krypton just before it is destroyed and he thinks he has no way to escape. And so he's seeing his parents and all of his friends and family members from before the destruction of his planet. He's making human connections. For once in his life, he's really connecting with people in a way he can't do on Earth. But he knows it's all going to end soon, and there's nothing he can do about it. That's a good story.

[Anya Cain]

That's bleak. I guess what I'm asking, though, more in the abstract, what makes a good Superman story? Like, not what ones you would adapt, but more of. Like, what about those do you think is superior to, no pun intended, to more modern day superhero stories?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I like that they're compact and there is an air of tragedy to them because he's kind of. He's kind of a lonely figure, right?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, yeah, it's kind of a classic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he's also filled with self loathing. At least in the old ones, right? Because Superman wants Lois to love him as Clark Kent. But then, at least in the old ones, he always makes Clark Kent to be as unlovable and as unattractive as possible. So he's like sabotaging himself.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that is really. That's actually really interesting. So he's sabotaging himself, but he's setting it on this woman to, like, fix his problems. But it's like, that's never gonna work because you kind of make yourself suck, basically. And why can't he just be okay? Like, yeah, that's odd. Well, I feel like that's some interesting psychology right there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're deep stories back in the 1950s.

[Anya Cain]

Deep. Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because the editor had a lot of personal props. He hated himself. And so all of his neuroses came out on the page.

[Anya Cain]

Don't they always? But that's. That's really interesting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we are like us. We keep our neuroses.

[Anya Cain]

Well, you guys don't know the half of our neuroses. Everyone's sitting there. Like, I think we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's nobody sitting here.

[Anya Cain]

No one's sitting here at this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, Anya, can we talk about hitchhiking?

[Anya Cain]

People? People hitchhiked away from us after that when they just. If they were listening in their car. They pulled over the side of the road and they hitchhiked away from there just to get a. Get out of Dodge, get away from.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The start of the episode by saying, we're going to be very, very serious this week.

[Anya Cain]

And it's. No, it's our stupidest one yet. Yeah, well, I mean, like, when you talk, I mean, it's a cheat sheet. People expect. I saw somebody in the Facebook group recently was like, I kind of, like, expect, like, certain things go off the rails with these. And that's. Yeah, that is the cheat sheet. That's where we can get a little zany, I guess, for lack of a better term, maybe stupid would be the better.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're recording this on Thursday. We're going to put it out on Patreon almost immediately, but then by the time it is released to the general feed, we will have already have seen Superman.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're going to Superman tonight. And I'm. I'm looking if I can kind of emergency order some earplugs or something, you know, super earplugs, some kryptonite. Ward you off now. I'm just kidding. I like to hear your take on stories. I just think it's really funny, though, that you have very specific, very strict preferences when it comes. Like, normally, I think people are like, oh, I like Batman. I like Superman. I like Spider Man. And you're like, I like specifically 1958 to 1963. 1965. Get it away from me. Like, like, that's amazing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This starts to be a deterioration, and then by the time.

[Anya Cain]

I'm the same way, though. Yeah, I have a very. If you're going to come and talk to me, no one's going to do this. Like, I have very few friends. For this reason. If you're going to come and talk to me about Jamestown, I don't want to be talking about Bacon's Rebellion. Okay. I don't even, frankly, want to be talking about, like, 1611 onward. What I want to be talking about is several months in 1607. And as we go further from that, I don't know. So I, I. We're. This is why we're married. We both have very specific interests, and, you know, we're not afraid to voice those.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And. And I. I'm. I'm going to tell you, Anya, tomorrow night, Friday night, Anya and I are going to a birthday party for an old friend of mine. And there'd be a lot of people there who share my interest in comic books. And I bet, to a man, they will be shocked that I went to see this movie.

[Anya Cain]

Really?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

They're gonna. What, are they gonna have, like, an intervention at this thing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're gonna say, what were you thinking?

[Anya Cain]

So they're not gonna go?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, absolutely not.

[Anya Cain]

They would spin off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They would understand my hesitation.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not trying to force you to go to Superman. I just think, you know, you're gonna be. Frankly, I mean, selfishly, I just want you to see it so you can stop agonizing about it, because you're gonna see it at some point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I haven't seen the last couple.

[Anya Cain]

Right. Well, crypto's in it. And I just don't want you to be sad about crypto, because that would.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Make me sad to a man. They will be shocked.

[Anya Cain]

They might disinvite you from the party.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If they hear this.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my goodness. Well, I guess wish me luck, folks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All right, hit the button.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you guys for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're very sorry.

[Anya Cain]

And we're sorry. Don't hitchhike. Okay, be safe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a. A difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show with SimpliSafe.

[Anya Cain]

SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisave, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard, outdoor protection. That's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. We're obsessed with our quint's pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is quints?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just gonna get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses cause like, I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the, the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing is right for you. And it's just a great deal for Murder Sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quint. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.