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- [00:00]
A
Fall's my favorite season and even more so this year because I get to bust out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. These are two of my favorite pieces of clothing that I own and I got them for such a reasonable price thanks to Quince.
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B
And since Quint's clothes stay in style, you'll be investing in fashion staples that last add some luxury to your life.
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A
Between Kevin's cool bomber jacket and my sweaters, it's the perfect clothing for our favorite fall activities like wandering around searching for old timey historical crime scenes or picking pumpkins.
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B
My Quince jacket looks nice and keeps me comfortable. Plus it's half the cost of similar products from Quince's competitors. Soon we'll be checking out Quince again and I will encourage Anya to finally get some more berets.
- [00:50]
A
Check out Quinte. This is a brand I'm so excited about. I'm constantly talking about it with everyone. Again, their pieces are like half the cost of similar brands.
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B
Find your fall staples at quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
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A
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- [01:28]
B
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- [01:51]
A
Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies have made me feel so much better. I tense up a lot, so I often deal with tension headaches and things like neck pain. With tasty flavors like watermelon and berry, these gummies help me with the pain and sleeplessness that I sometimes deal with. I can take them in the middle of a hectic workday or even at night. Once I want to just relax and watch some kind of old mystery movie with Kevin. These gummies make me feel like my stress is just melting away.
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B
Cornbread Hemp provides a quality product. They use hemp flowers to get you the purest, most potent CBD cornbread products are all third party lab tested and are USDA organic. So what you're getting is safe and pure cbd. And as a reminder, CBD is non intoxicating right now.
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A
Murder Sheet listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code MSHEET at checkout. That's cornbread.com msheet and use code msheet. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder as well as issues around mental illness.
- [02:57]
B
And if Anya sounds a little tired, it's been a big week for her. She's been wearing her beret close to 24 7. So it's been quite a week of highs. And now I just think you're finally crashing a bit from the beret high. So if she seemed a little low key today, that's why.
- [03:19]
A
What an insane way to start a show. I did not expect that.
- [03:25]
B
Well, your content warning was very low energy, so I was trying to defend you in advance.
- [03:33]
A
You know what? Well, I'll just move on. So we're going to New York, Oregon, Georgia and Indiana.
- [03:41]
B
Yes.
- [03:42]
A
Wearing our berets on the cane train.
- [03:44]
B
Well, one of us might be wearing a beret. I don't have a beret.
- [03:48]
A
Oh, well, maybe we can arrange that. How would you. How would you like me for me to make that a big issue going forward?
- [03:55]
B
If you felt I looked attractive in a particular garment, it would be my pleasure to wear it for my spouse without nary a complaint.
- [04:04]
A
I think you sound like you're being forced to say that. Let's go. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:13]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder sheet.
- [04:17]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:24]
A
We're the murder sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Nods and ne' er do wells it.
- [05:16]
B
You know, Anya, we. We gotten a great email this week from someone who included casually references to different states nicknames. And we are starting this week's broadcast by discussing a case from your home state of New York. So is a proud native New Yorker. Of course, now you're a Hoosier. Is a proud native New Yorker. What is the nickname of the New York state?
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A
The Empire State.
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B
The Empire State. So that's where we are opening up today. That evokes majesty.
- [05:53]
A
Excelsior. That's the same motto.
- [05:57]
B
Yes. And so Marvel Comics stole it from New York, not the other way around, because that would be pretty pathetic.
- [06:03]
A
Yeah. Marvel Comics stole it from New York.
- [06:05]
B
Yeah. So New York is the victim of the affair, obviously. So my sources for this syracuse.com and also a court Decision. So this is the. The story. Well, let me just tell you what happened, guys. On trial for murder. I'm going to butcher this name. Miquin Cheese.
- [06:31]
A
His last name is Cheese?
- [06:33]
B
Yeah.
- [06:33]
A
Okay.
- [06:36]
B
He's on trial for murder. Before the trial begins, as we all know, there's this process called voir dire. What is voir dire on you? What does that mean?
- [06:46]
A
Well, voir dire is like when it's basically. So it's. What we're talking about here is jury selection.
- [06:52]
B
Jury selection is what voir dire is. And so people come in as part of a panel, and the lawyers will ask them questions to try to determine whether or not they're appropriate jurors for this particular case. Because maybe they have a bias or maybe there's some sort of issue which makes them unable to try this particular case fairly. Does that make sense?
- [07:14]
A
Makes total sense. You don't want people on a jury say, if someone, like, you know, if you're doing a drunk driver case and someone's dad was killed by a drunk driver, that might make them more prejudiced against the defense. You don't want them on the jury.
- [07:29]
B
And there's two types of juror challenges. There's a challenge for cause. If Anya's on trial for stealing cereal and someone says, oh, I'm familiar with the murder sheet. I've listened to Anya.
- [07:41]
A
She's awful. I hate her. And I'm going to definitely convict her because she keeps making these stupid gags about serial on the show.
- [07:49]
B
Then that person, you could say that person's not gonna be fair and unbiased. So let's remove that person for cause. There's also something called peremptory challenges. Those are instances where the lawyer doesn't have to give a reason.
- [08:05]
A
I don't like your vibe. Basically.
- [08:07]
B
Yeah, I don't like your vibe. So we're Mr. Cheese's trial.
- [08:13]
A
That doesn't sound like a reason. Call it. That sounds like a children's book.
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B
Mr. Cheese is trial.
- [08:22]
A
Trial of Mr. Cheese.
- [08:24]
B
He's on trial for murder. And there's jury selection is going on. And the panel of jurors is asked, if Mr. Cheese chooses not to testify, would that bias you against him? And when the juror says, yes, that would. That would bias me against him. But then the judge says to the entire panel, the group of jurors in the box, well, even if you know instinctively, it might bias you against him, once you understand the rules of criminal procedure and you know he has that right not to testify, would you be able to set aside that feeling and give him a fair trial.
- [09:08]
A
Right. And so basically like, I don't want to throw out this whole panel.
- [09:13]
B
And that's very standard. And at that point.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, I mean, because they don't want to throw out a whole panel because.
- [09:17]
B
Then at that point all the jurors nodded and the lawyers go up to the judge and say, you know, that one guy who said it would biase, he'd be biased, why don't we throw him off for cause? And the judge says no, because he nodded and said he'd set that aside. And so then the defense attorneys used their last peremptory challenge to remove that juror from the panel. So I asked you, Ms. Cain, what is your reaction to what I've just told you?
- [09:52]
A
I think I don't blame the defense attorneys for wanting him off the, you know, for using the peremptory strike and for trying to avoid using a peremptory strike. You know, I mean, it. None of this seems like the sort of thing that they wouldn't want that person on the jury.
- [10:08]
B
Do you think the defendant's rights were, were harmed there?
- [10:13]
A
No. Because he wasn't on the jury.
- [10:15]
B
Right, he wasn't on the jury. But they had to use one of their limited number of peremptory challenges to knock him off.
- [10:21]
A
Maybe that was unreasonable of the judge. I don't know how that typically works.
- [10:27]
B
Do you think if when the juror panel was asked the question as a unit and everybody just nodded, is that good enough?
- [10:37]
A
Yes.
- [10:39]
B
Well, your home state disagrees with you because the verdict was overturned.
- [10:46]
A
Okay, but based on what? That he had to waste a preemptory strike or that people were nodding instead of saying yes?
- [10:53]
B
Well, both. Because when you're nodding as part of a group, the court found that individual is not making an unequivocal statement on his own. He's just nodding. That's not clear enough. And so they had to use their peremptory challenge, maybe they could have used that peremptory challenge elsewhere and gotten rid of another juror. And so they feel that that juror should have been struck for cause. I'm curious, do you agree with the court?
- [11:23]
A
Well, I mean, I don't know. I'm not an attorney, so I mean, I don't if that, if that's what they feel. That's what they feel. For me, like, it seems kind of like from a, from an outsider perspective, it seems kind of like, like one of those, like egg headed decisions that kind of, you know, seems like, ah, yes, you know, we're men of law, and we must, you know, kind of, I don't know, split hairs over stuff. But at the same time, I don't know, I mean, it, it seems like, it seems like a little bit ridiculous, in my opinion. It just sounds like one of those things, like the, the public's never going to understand stuff like that because it just sounds stupid. But I think when you're in the law, stuff like that is important and ultimately they're trying to defend this guy's rights. So I can understand.
- [12:06]
B
I thought this would be like poking the bear and you'd be infuriated.
- [12:09]
A
No, I mean, like, I, again, like, just because I don't really get it on a gut level doesn't mean that I can't understand it from the fact that, like, the law works in those ways and that's what an appeals court is designed for. Do I think I have less of an issue with them? The issue around them having to waste a preemptory strike does seem fair because I feel like, I don't know, maybe that guy should have just been taken off. But as for the nodding thing, that just seems like something that again, is kind of eggheaded, doesn't really exist in the real world.
- [12:48]
B
Well, you know, the thing is, have you ever been part of a group where the group is asked a question, maybe you don't fully understand the question, but everybody else seems okay with it and they're just nodding? In that situation, would you say, wait a minute, I need this question fully explained to me, or would you say, oh, yeah, I guess it's okay.
- [13:05]
A
I, I don't, I, I, I don't know, I don't, I don't think I've ever been, I mean, I, I can't remember a situation where I've just been nodding along with something.
- [13:15]
B
I think a lot of people have been in that kind of situation, perhaps.
- [13:18]
A
But like, I don't know, you know, I mean, I can understand why the appellate team's doing what they're doing.
- [13:23]
B
And to me, if it was an.
- [13:26]
A
It does seem like a huge waste of money for just what was essentially a badly run jury selection to me.
- [13:33]
B
If it wasn't a whole panel of people, if the question was being asked to this one individual juror and he chose to nod on his own, maybe that would be different. But the fact that it's being asked to a group and it's not clear that this, this person even understood what he was agreeing to, it becomes somewhat problematic to me.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah. And just jury selection seems like the time where judges and, and parties have to be so careful. So it just seems like there are a couple things here that were not ideal.
- [14:07]
B
Yeah, so his conviction was thrown out and he's currently being retried. And I'm not happy that it happened, but I feel like it's a reasonable decision.
- [14:20]
A
I feel bad for the family of Laquan golden, who is the 26 year old young man that Mr. Cheese is said to have murdered in 2019. So it's obviously very upsetting.
- [14:33]
B
It's obviously very upsetting. Mr. Cheese's attorneys also tried to get the verdicts thrown out based on their claims. There wasn't enough evidence to support it, but the court said no, there was enough evidence to support the guilty verdict. The issue is whether or not he got a fair jury.
- [14:52]
A
Right. So, you know, it's not surprising you're going to go for an appeal based on a number of different issues and see what sticks. And obviously this stuck.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah. It sounds a bit ridiculous when you say it got thrown out because of a nodding juror, but as I say, I think it makes sense. What do you think?
- [15:09]
A
I think it's still a little bit stupid, but it's within the realm of like, I can understand why the appeals court did what they did. You know, it's not, it's not something to get mad about. Ultimately, when you have an appeals courts that are enforcing stuff like this, you have more protections for everyone's rights. And that may not feel that way because you're thinking, well, you know, we're just protecting criminals with this. And, and I understand why people think that, but in reality it's, it's to ensure that the state and the courts are doing things correctly when anyone's going through, you know, regardless of who you are. So it's protecting everybody's rights.
- [15:49]
B
And if it's a close call, you want to err on the side of ensuring the defendant gets a fair trial. And so if it's at all debatable whether or not this person should or should not have been thrown out for cause, throw him out for cause.
- [16:02]
A
You know, I, I'll. And, and I think the judge should have done that, but I think it's, it's a situation where I do also understand why the public kind of looks at stuff like this and is like, are you kidding me? You know, and I also think like, honestly, sometimes the headlines around things, you know, don't really dig into it beyond what happened. So people are like, somebody nodded. And so the what? And, and maybe there's a Little bit more reasoning behind that that we can go into. So, you know, it's interesting, as busy true crime podcasters covering so many cases, we have to make a pretty strenuous effort to clean our house at the end of the day. That's frankly time we unwinding and relaxing after a day in court or on the phone wrangling FOIA records. That's why we find our wonderful new sponsor, Homaglow, so amazing. Homaglow is a top rated home service platform. They're all about making your space clean and tidy. Their online booking capabilities ensure you can hop on there, schedule a cleaner in an instant. They're affordable, convenient and sometimes so necessary for beating the stress around house cleaning.
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B
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A
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B
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A
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- [17:53]
B
Take home cleaning off your plate this fall by using homaglow. Head to homaglo.com murdersheet to get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. That's h o m e a g l o w.com/murder sheet. So let's go to Oregon and the sources for these case for this case is oregonlive.com so all the way back in May, the Oregon Court of Appeals made a decision in a case involving a man named Adams in which basically they said ballistics science is unreliable. They said ballistic science is subjective. And so because of that, it's not good enough to be used in court. And how does this affect criminal law? And how did this affect Mr. Adams? He was a convicted murderer and a key part of the case against him was that a gun said to be linked to him was traced to some of the bullets used in the crime. So now they're saying, well, this kind of evidence is unreliable and they threw out his conviction. And we've talked a lot about ballistics on the show generally. I'm going to really oversimplify here. Generally, people on the prosecution side think it's great, and people on the defense side think it's junk science or they.
- [19:32]
A
Say it's junk science.
- [19:33]
B
Yeah, probably the truth lies somewhere in between. What do you think?
- [19:36]
A
I think the truth lies far more on the side of it not being junk science and far more on the side of it being relatively reasonable. I think a lot of things when I look at the criticisms seem overstated. That being said, I think it's fair to say that a course correction was necessary in the way things were going. And so I think today some of this is forensic firearms examination is better than it was, say like 30 years ago. And I also think there's something to be said for forensic firearms examiners having to tone down the language. Like instead of saying this bullet matches, you know, saying these are consistent. I think that's all fair. So I think some of these changes that have been brought about by the criticisms have been positive and fair. But I, I tend to, I just, I mean, having read about this, I'm not a firearms person. I'm pretty open minded about it too. But I tend to see a. What I see is overstatement. And when something is traditionally been overstated, when something's not perfect, that doesn't necessarily put it in a junk science category in my book. It puts it in a category of how can we speak about this in a way that's fair, reasonable and as accurate as possible?
- [20:53]
B
So needless to say, the state is going to appeal that ruling. It'll probably take a couple years to totally play out. But meanwhile, this ruling about the unreliability of ballistics science is the law in Oregon. And so we're seeing it come into play into other cases. There is a man named Reza Mardani, and last week he became the first person in Oregon to have his murder conviction overturned as a result of the Adams decision. Because the court found that the linchpin in the case against him was again, ballistics evidence tying him to the murder weapon. And the court found if you don't have that, what's left isn't enough to convict him. At the same time, they looked at another case where a person was convicted of murder and ballistics evidence was used. But they found, well, in this case there was other evidence that it was sufficient to get the conviction. So there's going to be a situation now where a lot of old cases in Oregon are going to be examined very carefully by defense attorneys who are going to be making arguments that the verdicts against their clients were based on entirely on ballistics evidence. And also, meanwhile, working prosecutors in the state are going to be structuring the cases they present to juries differently because they don't want to rely too much on ballistics evidence while this decision stands as it is. What do you think?
- [22:43]
A
I mean, I don't know. It's a complicated issue, and it's one of those ones where I'm not a technician around this, I'm not a firearms examiner, and I, I think, personally, I think this seems like an overcorrection. That's my gut instinct. But, you know, I don't know. What do you think?
- [23:07]
B
I think it'd be interesting to see if other states start making similar rulings.
- [23:13]
A
It's possible. Some will, but I, I don't. I don't necessarily see this catching on in every state. I think, I think they're reading on. I think the Oregon court's reading on this is, you know, reading this article seems pretty extreme in my view. What do you think? You've. You've looked into ballistics, too?
- [23:43]
B
I have. And the thing is, when you talk to scientists about things like this or when you talk to doctors about mental health in courts, they always say lawyers are great. Everybody knows lawyers are great. That's a given.
- [24:00]
A
Nobody says that.
- [24:02]
B
Well, you say it all the time.
- [24:03]
A
I say it about one lawyer.
- [24:07]
B
But having a legal background may not necessarily make you best qualified to evaluate science or mental health issues or things of that nature.
- [24:19]
A
I think all the lawyers in our audience just angrily just turned off the podcast, shaking their heads. No, I agree. That's why I kind of, I side eye this a bit, you know, like, I don't, I don't really know if, like, a group of judges in Oregon would be who I would trust to make this decision.
- [24:40]
B
One of the attorney general, I believe in Oregon suggested, if there was a problem with the particular analysis of ballistics, why not just have the jury make their own decisions based on vigorous cross examination of the alleged expert?
- [24:58]
A
Precisely. And that makes me feel like this is agenda driven. And I don't know that that's the case. I have no idea what their agenda is. But it feels like when you have an obvious solution of, well, we can bring in experts who can trash ballistics and maybe get the jury on their side, that seems more fair than just suddenly sort of saying, well, no, this is all completely, you know, I think you mentioned a report that came out. Right. That kind of cast doubt on the, you Know, the. Historically, there was a. You know, I think in the President Barack Obama's administration, there was like sort of National Academy of Sciences looking at.
- [25:43]
B
Yeah, I don't think I mentioned that today, but that did that.
- [25:45]
A
Did we. That. We've talked about that on the show before and that, that, that plays a role in this. But, you know, when I talk to people about that, you know, when I talk to people in forensics fields, that. That report was sort of like maligning. These people are pretty nuanced, they say, like, it identified some key issues and it identified ways where we could be more careful. But, you know, in some ways it was. I don't know if that should be taken as the end all. Be all of everything. A lot seems to be resting on that. And I don't know how. I don't know if that. I don't know if I feel super comfortable about that.
- [26:21]
B
Certainly this is one of the most controversial topics, certainly, that we've aired on our show because we've occasionally had experts on who say ballistics is junk science. And when we do that, we get angry messages.
- [26:38]
A
Not angry, I mean, just forceful.
- [26:42]
B
We get forceful messages from people on the other side saying this is really misrepresenting the science. When we have people vigorously defending ballistics evidence, we get forceful messages, to use your word, from people on the other side. So it. It's hotly debated.
- [27:01]
A
That's true. Yeah.
- [27:05]
B
Yeah.
- [27:05]
A
I mean, it's. It's complicated. I'm certainly not saying no one should question ballistics. Nothing to see here, folks. Move on. I'm just saying that, I don't know, whenever judges are kind of doing stuff so unilaterally here in a way that sends aftershocks throughout their state. You know, I question the prudence of that personally, especially when there's measures that can take ballistics to task that don't involve doing this. But, yeah, I mean, is that everything? Can we leave Oregon?
- [27:44]
B
You don't like hanging out in Oregon?
- [27:47]
A
No. I mean, nothing against it. I've never been to Oregon, actually.
- [27:50]
B
Never been to Oregon.
- [27:51]
A
I've never been to the Pacific Northwest in general. I'd like to visit. I'm sure it's really cool, but I've never been there.
- [27:58]
B
I've never been to Oregon either. And I'm sure that's our loss.
- [28:03]
A
Yeah, I'm sure it's pretty. I like the idea of, like a rainy kind of vibe. I don't know if that's more of Washington, but that's sort of. I always associate the Pacific Northwest with kind of raininess. And I. I like rain. So I think I would like it.
- [28:18]
B
Oregon has a state motto which translated means, she flies with her own wings.
- [28:25]
A
That's fun. Is it in Latin?
- [28:28]
B
Yeah. So I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to try to say it.
- [28:31]
A
Let me see it.
- [28:32]
B
Okay.
- [28:32]
A
I want to say it in Latin. Alis volat propris. Flies with her own wings. That's fun.
- [28:41]
B
So it sounds like a very poetic.
- [28:43]
A
Who knows what that means? But anyways, so shall we move along?
- [28:47]
B
Yes.
- [28:48]
A
So you had a theme of two overturned convictions. My theme is foiled mass shootings. So I don't know why we're doing themes now, but it just. I just. One made me think of the other. So the first one I'll talk about is in our home state, the Hoosier State, Indiana.
- [29:06]
B
I should mention that Oregon, of course, is the Beaver State.
- [29:09]
A
Ah, okay. I didn't know that. Well, this is the Hoosier State, whatever the heck that means. It's the state where people in Indiana are from. Yes. Yeah, like that. That seems kind of redundant. So my source for this is Fox 59 and some court filings. So I. We previously covered on the case that a student in Mooresville, Indiana, former student, was arrested for plotting to do a mass shooting at the school in Mooresville. And I'm just gonna give everyone a note here. I'm. I'm not going to use any pronouns for this student because it's not clear to me how they identify or what their pronouns are. It's been reported that in the. In the press they are trans, but without, like, you know, I just. I'm just gonna be careful because I just don't know what the truth is and I don't know what's going on. So that's just my call on this. And it seems like at one point this. This individual, Trinity Shockley, did identify as trans or said. They did what? Again, without. Without having a more direct line on the situation and without any sort of name change being official, I just am making the call to just be cautious here. So it's Morgan County, Indiana. And as a reminder, this all kind of went down on February 11, 2025. Trinity Shockley was on different social media making statements to people. This person apparently worshiped other school shooters like Nicholas Cruz, who shot up Parkland high school in 2018, and they essentially wanted to recreate that. They also admired Dylann Roof, who was the white supremacist shooter who murdered a bunch of people at a Church in South Carolina. So you know, this is, it's, it's, it seems like a real sickness here where you're having young people through social media idolizing mass murderers and wanting to recreate what those mass murderers did. That's horrifying. So I mean it's, it's becoming almost like a fandom but for murder. So you know, what the heck is going on in these kids lives or what isn't going on or what should have been happening with their parents or what.
- [31:43]
B
Have there been any studies or something to suggest why people.
- [31:47]
A
I really hope some sociologists tackle this because I, I would love to know more about like, what are the warning signs and how can like communities intervene? In many cases, I imagine the parenting is not up to snuff. I'm just going to be very brutal here and say, go out on a limb and say, I'm sure some of these parents are, maybe they're not horrible, maybe they're not horrible people, but they're not, they're not what their kid needs if they're doing this. And in other cases, I imagine the parents are pretty blameless and they're trying their best and there's other issues at play. So I'm not saying it's one or the other, but it would be good if parents and communities could be aware of some of the risk factors here and what to look for so that they can prevent tragedies. So in this case, fortunately though, some tipsters who are aware of what this trinity Shockley was saying online were able to intervene and give a tip to law enforcement that came in. So the, the latest development here is that there's been a plea agreement in the case. And it's going to be the, the plea is basically for pleading guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit murder, which is a level two felony. And that, that makes sense given that Shockley was, you know, had the, had the AR15 rifle, had a bulletproof vest, had, had what they needed to, to do this. And thank goodness somebody from, you know, from this Internet space was able to tip this in. And so essentially my understanding is that the signed plea deal has shockley sentenced to 20 years, 12 and a half served in the Indiana Department of Correction, five years probation. And you know, that's within the range of the sentencing typically. And there's going to be requirements for probation around seeing a qualified mental health professional around not owning any firearms, around not even doing any research or reading any materials about school shooters.
- [34:05]
B
Do you feel that this is all an appropriate sentence?
- [34:08]
A
Listen, If I were in Mooresville, I think I'd be probably, like, lock. Lock this person up and throw away the key. They were gonna, like, kill my child or, like, attack my child's school. So I don't know. It seems reasonable. This person, this Trinity Shockley, was. Was quite young when this happened. And I. I think on. On some level, like, maybe there's ability to get some people help so that they don't ever think about doing this again. This person was born in 2006. So, again, they're young. But the night. I mean, without knowing more about what makes these shooters tick, it's kind of like, what's the recidivism? You know, like, can someone get better with treatment? I really hope so. I hope this person gets better with treatment. You know, what we should want is for them to live a productive, safe life where they don't harm others.
- [35:06]
B
Right.
- [35:07]
A
And that's what I hope. But at the same time, I can understand where people are like, I don't know if you were willing to do this once. You know, we're kind of playing some Russian roulette with bringing them back into it. So I don't know. I tend to feel like, because no one was killed in this situation, I feel more optimistic about possibly them getting help because that line wasn't crossed. So I'm hopeful. I mean, I hope. But again, like, what does that mean in this context? But it's. It's a. It's sad. And the community's trust was obviously lost here, and hopefully this person can do the treatment and can come out of this experience a safer person for themselves and others. So my other foiled mass shooting and did not come from an Internet tipster, actually came from the family of the accused man. So my sources for this are Fox 5 Atlanta and CBS News.
- [36:03]
B
So this is in Georgia, and it's kind of interesting. We started in New York, which, as you reminded us, is the Empire State. Georgia is the Empire State of the South.
- [36:17]
A
What?
- [36:19]
B
You heard me. Georgia is the Empire State of the South. So it's like there are two sister states. I guess. You're looking at me like you think I made that up.
- [36:31]
A
Is that the state nickname? The Empire State of the south is like the south of the south in parentheses.
- [36:39]
B
You're looking at me like I made it up.
- [36:40]
A
You sound like you made it up. And frankly, I wouldn't be put it past you at all. After the. After what you pulled on the last cheat sheet with the Chunnel bit. Yeah, everyone heard that. That was a betrayal.
- [36:56]
B
My information is Georgia has two state nicknames, one of which is the Empire State of the South.
- [37:03]
A
And what's the other one that people actually use? Because that's so sad. No offense to Georgia, but, like, that's, like, what. What it. Like, was Alabama gonna come in over the Hoosier state of the South? That doesn't even make any sense. Stay in your lane.
- [37:19]
B
Don't you think we should be promoting state sisterhood and brotherhood?
- [37:23]
A
What is Oregon gonna come in and be, like, the Golden State, But. But kind of. Maybe. Maybe more like a bronze. I mean, what are we. Come on. We should be. We should be doing our own things.
- [37:32]
B
Okay, I think you're making a mockery of the whole idea of state nicknames. Oh, and I think. I think that you said lawyers were turning off. I think you just lost us the state of Georgia.
- [37:48]
A
Georgia just left.
- [37:52]
B
And it was her. It wasn't me. I love Georgia.
- [37:55]
A
I. I have no problem. I have no problem.
- [37:57]
B
They have a Coke.
- [37:58]
A
You're the only one who has a problem with any states here.
- [38:01]
B
First of all, they have a Coca Cola museum where you can go into a room and there'd be, like, Coke flying all over the ceiling, and then it comes down to your cup. So that's Georgia.
- [38:09]
A
Okay, I forget. Were you doing that bit like a billion times in a live, or was it like, one of. One of our actual episodes? Because either way, I'm horrified. But I remember we were recording something, and every five minutes, Kevin kept on talking about how there was a place where Coke was flying all over the ceiling and it was where he really wanted to go and. No, it was on a. It was on a Patreon live. It was. Thank God it's only. The damage was minimal.
- [38:36]
B
But Georgia. I love Georgia. Georgia can have whatever nickname they like.
- [38:40]
A
Have you been to Georgia?
- [38:43]
B
Spiritually, yes.
- [38:44]
A
What does that mean?
- [38:46]
B
I was in Georgia as a little child.
- [38:50]
A
What were you doing there? Your parents shipped you off to Georgia? Oh, was this when they were driving to Disney World or something?
- [38:57]
B
Or something, yeah. And we stopped. We visited. We had relatives in Georgia. And this was when.
- [39:03]
A
Like, when. Before. They had, like, car seats for babies. So weren't you, like, just on the floor of your car?
- [39:08]
B
So you think. You think I went down there in, like, 1922?
- [39:13]
A
Well, I would. Would anyone else be that surprised if we found a picture of Kevin, like, in, like, a straw boater hat and a suit from, like, the 1920s Georgia, like, at a fair or something? I feel like I wouldn't even blink at this Point I'd be like, yes, Kevin went on some time traveling adventure. I'm not even gonna worry about it.
- [39:32]
B
Because you think I'm that powerful, but I can even master time space.
- [39:36]
A
You're very whimsical. I could just see somehow you'd get, you'd like leave for lunch and then come back and it wouldn't even be a thing, but, you know. Yeah. So I, I have no problem with Georgia. I just. You really threw me off with that state nickname.
- [39:49]
B
It really seemed to throw you for a loop.
- [39:51]
A
It just doesn't make any. I just, I don't even know what to say to something like that.
- [39:55]
B
Why don't you return us to the Empire State of the south, tell us what happened and what didn't happen.
- [40:02]
A
Well, thank God there wasn't a mass shooting. So this occurred on October 20, 2025, and involved a 49 year old man, Billy Joe Cagle. I don't, I. We talked about trying not to name people when they are doing something and recovering them. And in this case, he didn't actually kill anyone. So I feel like whatever, we can talk about this guy because he got caught. So Billy Joe Cagle, I guess his family, in statements to media, talked about how he was on medication, but when he doesn't take his medication, he starts hallucinating and stuff. So he may deal with some kind of psychosis. It's not really that clear to me if this man has a diagnosis, but I'm just basing that off of what his family has told the media. And he worked at a hay farm in Cartersville, Georgia, struggled with a lot of mental health issues. He apparently made some kind of like live stream on social media talking about how he was going to the airport at the Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport to shoot it up. And his family sees this and they immediately contact the police. I just want to say to his family, I imagine that's so difficult. You have a mentally ill relative that you're, you know, you love and you want of support and seeing something like this, what a nightmare. And they saved lives because they, they didn't sit on it, they just acted. And I'm, I'm glad that he did not kill anybody. I'm glad that he himself was not killed. So ultimately there was a, a peaceful resolution to this. But I just think we should, when things like this happen, when things go right, we need to commend people for making these difficult decisions that maybe make them feel like, oh, I'm betraying my son or brother or cousin, but Ultimately, they saved his life, I think, as well as everyone else's. So, I mean, God bless them. He was Cagle. You know, there was basically a situation where, you know, they, I think Cartersville police got the call, and then they. Cartersville called the Atlanta Police Department and they're all like, you know, there's like this kind of like, okay, we need to watch out for him. And ultimately, he was busted. His car, his truck, rather outside of the Terminal had an AR15 style rifle, 27 rounds of ammunition. And he was arrested at the south domestic terminal. And they think that he was heading back into his truck at that point to get his gun and use it. But when you see something, you should say something, right? Like, that's a classic. That's a classic line, and it's almost like a meme at this point. But if we see something, say something, that's what saved lives at Mooresville High School in Indiana. That's what likely saved lives in Atlanta. And, you know, here's the thing about someone like Billy Joe Cagle. If he, if he truly is having mental illness, I mean, that's horrible. And that's. That's very sad that it came to this. Maybe he can receive some help because he's alive now and it's not a situation where he's going to be in a gunfight with police and they're going to kill him or he's going to die by his own hand. It's a situation where, you know, like, he's facing charges. He is a convicted felon, too, but, you know, he's. He's alive. And that's a better outcome for anybody, you know, including the perpetrator. But I just. I feel bad for his family. But I also think they should really be commended because they were heroes in this situation and so were the police officers who were able to stop this guy before he did anything.
- [43:39]
B
I agree completely. Would it be all right if I said a few words about my alma mater?
- [43:44]
A
Yes, please do.
- [43:46]
B
My alma mater is located in Indiana, which of course, the crossroads of America. I went to Indiana University. Lots of great things you can say about Indiana University. And one of the great things you could have said until very recently was that Indiana University had an excellent journalism program. That's something that the university was really well known for. One of my favorite journalists of all time, Ernie Pyle, great World War II correspondent, went to Indiana University. And if you ever feel like you want to cry, look up the column he wrote on the death of Captain Wascott. Do you remember that? One Anya, that made me cry. Very, very sad column about the war. So I remember a year or so ago, actually a little more than a year ago, Carl Bernstein came to IU to give a speech or give a presentation. This, of course, is one of the famous Watergate reporters. So Anya and I attend because we.
- [44:51]
A
Had both seen Bob Woodward separately before we ever knew each other. So we were like.
- [44:55]
B
We wanted to complete the set.
- [44:56]
A
Yeah.
- [44:57]
B
And we're just odd people. So we go down to Bloomington, and it turns out it's not just him talk. He's being interviewed. And he's being interviewed, it turns out, by, like, the dean of whatever schools is in charge of media and journalism there these days. And as the guy comes out, this dean comes out and starts talking and starts asking his questions. One thought became inescapable in my mind, which was, this guy's a real doofus. And I didn't say that publicly at the time. Carl Bernstein did a fine job. This guy did a terrible job interviewing Carl Bernstein. Awful job.
- [45:41]
A
It was bad.
- [45:42]
B
He didn't really know what he was doing at all. And it's like, imagine me, your friend Kevin, if I'm asked to interview, like, a stock car driver, that's a fine race, a fine sport. I know nothing about it. So imagine I get this assignment, like an hour before I'm supposed to do it, and I skim a Wikipedia article. I'm not a dumb man, but I would do very badly in that situation because I have no background in it.
- [46:14]
A
I feel like you could probably fake it better, though, than this guy did.
- [46:16]
B
This guy, he just seemed to be flailing, and it was kind of pathetic to see. But Carl Bernstein was. Bernstein was great. And we thought, well, no more of it. But it turns out if a person is a doofus and doesn't really know that much about the subject of the school he's supposed to lead, it turns out there can be some consequences to that. And this guy, this guy who really did an awful job, that interview, he's also done a terrible job with the journalism program. At my alma Material, he tried to control and basically censor what the student journalists were allowed to put in their paper, which goes against everything that program stands for and also goes against my understanding of the charter for the paper. And it's outraged a lot of people, including the faculty advisor who was in charge of the newspaper. So this guy fired him. It's really stoked national outrage. A number of prominent alumni from IU who said they will stop giving money to the school over this, he's now doing. This dean is now doing this pathetic thing you do. If you want to be seen to be doing something, but you don't want to do something, what do you do? You form a committee to study it. So that's what he's doing now. So, you know, I just wanted to talk about that a little bit. It's an outrageous situation. It really upsets me and it's kind of front of mind because we were in Bloomington over the weekend last weekend for the book festival and we were.
- [48:00]
A
Complaining loudly about it there as well with people.
- [48:02]
B
Everybody was complaining.
- [48:03]
A
Yeah, everyone.
- [48:04]
B
This guy has really done a lot of damage and I hope it can be undone.
- [48:11]
A
It's a situation where he, obviously, he has no journalism background. I mean, listen, if it's a media school, I'm not saying you have to have a journalism background, but I think, think if you are going to be making decisions like this, having some humility, studying what, what is appropriate and what's not appropriate is, is what any leader should do. And it's a situation where all it's done is given IU a black eye in terms of, you know, its reputation with this. And, and, and frankly, when I look at the controversy, what I see. And again, there may be undercurrents here that we're not aware of, but, but nonetheless, the, the, the criticism still stands for a reason. I'll get into in a moment. The undercurrents here, you know, like, it's been said that, okay, IU has like a, you know, I guess like an early edit. Like they, they, they diminished their press or rather their print output gonna be focusing mostly online. And there was a dispute over, okay, one of their special print features. They wanted to include news in it and they were told no, just make it, I guess, more evergreen, generic stuff. And they were like, no, we want to do that. And then after their advisor basically didn't force them to do what the dean wanted, he fired that guy and then has like revoked further resources from the. And it's like, why would you. Like, this is not a. Like, it's, here's why. I think it's also just incompetent. You know, it's been handled badly because. You know why it's been handled badly? Because it's gotten out and it's just been a big mess and has made them look bad. Even if someone is dealing with, even if you're breaking news to people that they don't want to hear, or you have to lead people through a situation where you're like, okay, well, I know you guys aren't going to like this. A leader comes in and is able to get the different shareholders on their side understanding what they're doing, if they have a reasonable point and if they're criticized for it later, is able to flag with people why they did this in a way that sounds reasonable. And I don't feel like this guy's been doing that.
- [50:15]
B
Yeah, he's done a lot of damage for no discernible reason. And as I say, the word doofus comes to mind. We were not impressed with him last year. I mean, even less impressed with him today.
- [50:28]
A
Certainly less impressed. I mean, it's one thing to do poorly in one interview. It's another thing to make decisions that just actually damage your reputation, you know, with everyone who hears about it. Here's the thing. Like with. With. I was a college newspaper editor, right. I think I've talked about that on the show sometimes. It was really fun. It was a situation where we got money from the school indirectly through a media council. So, I mean, our. Our paper in 1945, Marilyn Kamarla, who is the editor in chief, then wrote a column, wrote a op ed or whatever, talking about Lincoln's job, half finished, which was about how the school should desegregate. She was quite literally expelled. And then I think they let her back in later. But, like, she was run. Brought through the ringer over that. And after that, our. Our school newspaper basically sought independence at all costs because it was determined that administrators. Petty bureaucrats cannot be trusted in this situation. And. And that was. And that was the attitude. And unfortunately, this guy's living up to why people feel that way.
- [51:34]
B
And I'll say just one more thing about it, and I'll preface this by saying, this is really petty on my part, but this guy, this dean, his parents had a bunch of old VHS tapes, and so he donates them to the school. And he acts like this is just a real big noble thing. And there's like a picture of him looking all smug about donating this stuff. It's like, if I clean out my parents, Atticus. And donate to my alma mater, I'm not gonna be sending out press releases.
- [52:09]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's just like this guy. I mean, he shouldn't be in charge of a journalism program. Maybe he'd be great as the screenwriting dean or whatever his background is, but he.
- [52:19]
B
But to be a good screenwriter, you need to have empathy and understanding for other people.
- [52:22]
A
Well, that's true. And here's the other Thing that I did find a little bit uplifting about this situation is that the Purdue University newspaper, that's your father's ALMA material, they actually, in solidarity with the students at the ids, their newspaper ran what their print edition was supposed to be, even though they're rivals. Obviously Purdue and IU are rivals, but they. I thought it was really nice that they did that. I thought that was a class act. And that's the Purdue Exponent is the newspaper there. So, you know, as someone who was immersed in student newspaper drama in college, definitely interests me. And I hope that the IU situation can be corrected and that the reputation there can be saved. Because who wants to go to, like, a media program where it's going to. You're just going to be stifled for just no reason. And things are going to be done in what very much appears to be, you know, an underhanded and less than ideal way.
- [53:21]
B
Yes. So now Anya is going to move on to the promotional announcements. The book promotion is coming to an end, so you don't have to worry about hearing anecdotes much longer.
- [53:36]
A
And thank God, because we're running out of anecdotes. Our lives are not that interesting.
- [53:40]
B
Our lives are a fascinating pageant of endless riches and delight.
- [53:47]
A
You sound so full of yourself. Can I say one other thing? I'm sorry, I need to unload on people. I want to say one other thing about that Bernstein talk. And this is actually not shading the dean. This is.
- [54:01]
B
Oh, I know what this is.
- [54:02]
A
You know what? I was going to. Yeah, okay. And I understand it's a very difficult time in journalism. It just is. A lot of my friends have been laid off from where they were working. A lot of people we know are gone. It sucks. It's a bad situation. So I'm. I'm prefacing with where I kind of understand where people are coming from. But when people asked questions for Carl Bernstein, I wanted to just curl up in my seat and die. Because it was like, this is what. Like this happened like five times. They'd get up and say, I'm a journalist. And you'd be like, okay, great. This person knows how to ask a question. And then the person would proceed to info dump all over Carl Bernstein for like, five hours talking about. And then I got divorced. Then my parents moved to Florida. And it's like, what the heck is going on here? Like, people could not formulate. It wasn't. Like, there are certain questions where I. He is like, is there a question in this? Like, it's like, they're just trauma dumping on this, this man of letters. And I was very embarrassed because I was like, guys, this is not how you ask a question. And certainly it's not, you know, civilians, like people were not journalists. That's fine. You know, you're not used to that, but you should certainly know how to ask a question if you're a journalist. And I was just, I was, I was just, I was dismayed. But, yeah, that was, that was grinding my gears, as the viper bit would say.
- [55:20]
B
With that, let's progress to the promotional portion of the program, followed by the anecdote, which would then be followed by the good nights.
- [55:32]
A
You've got it all planned out. You've got it all figured out.
- [55:41]
B
I'm like playing 3D chess over here.
- [55:42]
A
I know. You're sailing through the Chunnel. Can't believe that happened still.
- [55:49]
B
Okay, you don't sail through the Chunnel.
- [55:51]
A
Whatever. You know what? You would. So the events we have on tomorrow, Saturday, Nov. 1, 2025, at the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana. Lafayette, Indiana, from 1:00pm to 4:00pm we will be signing books after that, Tuesday, November 4, 2025, in Zionsville, Indiana. We were gonna, we're gonna do a talk and sign some books at the Curious Squirrel Bookshop from 6 to 8. And our go to murdersheetpodcast.com events. And there's like a place to sign up for that.
- [56:27]
B
And then after that, we're done until my birthday. Right?
- [56:30]
A
Yeah. We're just making sure to work and toil on your birthday specifically because you.
- [56:34]
B
Wanted to make it a day where there'd be no joy. No, no. Because obviously, what, what greater pleasure is there in, in. In meeting our friends, the listeners?
- [56:44]
A
Yeah. That's going to be December 6th. Let me.
- [56:47]
B
My birthday.
- [56:48]
A
Yeah, I know. I'm looking it up. What that's going to be, what, what that is called? It's the 2025 holiday author fair at, with the Indiana Historical Society. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be from 12 noon to 4pm at the Eugene and Marilyn Glick Indiana History Center. We're going to be there, we're going to have fun. And if you come to the table, obviously make sure to wish Kevin a happy birthday or we will scowl at you, turn up our noses and hiss.
- [57:18]
B
Have you, Anya Kane. Have you, as we record. Have you already got me my birthday gift? No, but you know exactly what it is and it's going to be delightful. Right?
- [57:29]
A
Very hard to shop.
- [57:30]
B
Very easy to buy shops.
- [57:31]
A
No, that's not true. I had no idea what you want from me. I already wore a beret this year.
- [57:39]
B
So that was my birthday gift.
- [57:40]
A
That's it. No, I got to think of something good. I want to get you something nice. I got you something nice last year, and you were obsessed with it for five minutes, and then you lost interest.
- [57:53]
B
Oh, I remember that.
- [57:54]
A
You know what I'm talking about.
- [57:55]
B
I know what you're talking about.
- [57:56]
A
That didn't sound weird. It was a juicer. Okay. It was to make juice, so don't get any weird ideas, people.
- [58:04]
B
Well, it was, like, one of these juicers that had, like, 10,000 parts that you have to very carefully. It's quality juice, but it takes hours to assemble. And then you make your juice, you enjoy your juice, and then it takes hours to disassemble and then wash them all.
- [58:19]
A
In fairness, I think we were both kind of depressed last year and also have been depressed probably for the past. Yeah. And we're starting to come out of it emotionally. So I think part of the. The. The overwhelm around the juicer may have been caused by just feeling overwhelmed in our lives. So I'm. I think now that we're. Now that we're maybe emerging from the fog.
- [58:43]
B
So you are on the record predicting a juice renaissance.
- [58:47]
A
Yes. And confessing that we're both clinically depressed. But I think we can. We can. We can have the juice take us out of that, maybe. So I think we can make it work better right now in terms of where we are in life. Everyone's thinking, jesus, these guys are soft. Like they're getting depressed over a juicer. You're really tough.
- [59:16]
B
So I don't talk about it a lot on the show. I think I may have mentioned it once or twice in passing, but I've had some chronic pain issues. It's much better now than it used to be, but I still have issues. So if you ever see me out in public and I'm, like, sitting down or when other people are standing, or if I have a churlish look on my face, it's not because I'm unpleasant or lazy. It's because I'm probably having some pain issues.
- [59:44]
A
Sometimes you lean against the wall, and it's not because you think you're a cool guy. It's just because you need the support.
- [59:51]
B
So about five, six, seven, eight years ago, whenever it was, the issues are really at their worst. I'm not in great shape, and I'm aware that some people claim that they can get relief from chronic pain. Through the use of marijuana, which, of course is illegal in the great state of Indiana, but it becomes legal in Canada. And so I go to Canada and I go to a marijuana store. Never used marijuana before. I go into a marijuana store, and I don't know if you've ever been in a marijuana store, but this one was like an Apple store. It was like very pristine. Everything was white. You'd go up to the counters and there'd be like a little leaf there with a little something signed by it with some ridiculous name saying, oh, this marijuana will do this. This marijuana is slightly different. Would do this. And one of the marijuana clerks comes and says, you look like a guy who's never used marijuana in your life. Because I think I just exude that. Right?
- [61:06]
A
Well, some people might be surprised because you got the beard going, you got the long hair. They might think you're a bit of a hippie.
- [61:14]
B
But those people haven't seen me looking confused in a marijuana store.
- [61:17]
A
That's true.
- [61:18]
B
And he says, well, I tell him about the pain issues. He says, what I recommend here is some gel capsules, and here is one that has the lowest concentration of marijuana that we sell. Take this. And that will be your first experience. And because it's in the gel cap form, it will just hit your bloodstream like that. Boom, boom. Hang on to your hat, he said, because there'd be fast marijuana action for you, and it'll hit you for a loop because you've never had it before. You're just going to be knocked out of your socks. He was just using all the cliches, but maybe he had already partaken the marijuana, so we can't really blame him for it. So I buy a bottle of this small dosage marijuana, go back to my hotel in Canada. In Canada. And I take a capsule, and I'm hanging onto my hat, and I'm also, with one hand, my other hand is hanging onto my socks. Nothing happens. Nothing happens. No pain relief. I'm not high or anything like that. So I said, okay. And I have the stupid guy attitude that, okay, if one didn't do it for me, what I should do is, I'll take five.
- [62:39]
A
Don't do that at home, kids.
- [62:41]
B
So I took five of these capsules and again, hanging onto my hat, hanging onto my socks, nothing happens. And so then after a half hour, I took. Well, over the course of the next couple hours, I think I took about 15.
- [62:58]
A
Jesus Christ, you're insane. I wasn't here. This was before my administration.
- [63:05]
B
Yes. This was in The Ba era before Anya, nothing happens. Nothing happens. No impact whatsoever. There may as well have been water pills or sugar pills.
- [63:17]
A
And so sad for me, because you just wanted to not have pain. You weren't even trying to have a good time. No, you didn't care about having a good time. You just wanted to, like, relieve that.
- [63:27]
B
So the next day I go back, the clerk who helped me isn't there. There's another clerk. He says, have you had experience with marijuana before? I said, yes, very experienced. And I say, give me the strongest gel caps you have. And so he gives me, this is a much more expensive bottle and it has the highest possible concentration of marijuana that you could buy in the store. And I get a bottle of those and I go back to my hotel and I take one holding onto my hat, holding onto my sock. Nothing happens. And you see where this is going. And I think that day I probably had maybe eight of the ones that were super powerful. No reaction.
- [64:13]
A
Your medical mystery.
- [64:15]
B
I'm an enigma.
- [64:16]
A
Yeah, you are.
- [64:18]
B
So I come back to the States, I meet Anya. Anya has some addiction issues, which she's been very open about.
- [64:31]
A
What a weird introduction to me.
- [64:36]
B
Well, I'm trying to say this was early on.
- [64:39]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [64:39]
B
This was early on in your sobriety journey.
- [64:44]
A
I didn't really know how to do it.
- [64:46]
B
And you were like, marijuana pills that have no effect on you and are just basically a waste of money. Sign me up. And so we have our first trip as a couple. I'm in Indiana, you're in New York, we meet in Canada, and we get some of the low dose marijuana. You wouldn't do this today?
- [65:08]
A
No, I wouldn't do that because again, I didn't know how to do sobriety.
- [65:12]
B
This was like five, six years ago.
- [65:14]
A
Also, I wasn't, I never really, I mean, I, at that point, I mean, I think I can confess. I, you know, maybe experimented with pot a little bit in college, but.
- [65:26]
B
Why do people say experiment? You weren't in a laboratory.
- [65:28]
A
I was, I was wearing a lab coat and, and, and a visor and I had test tubes. I, I, well, I just didn't want to give. I wasn't like, smoking weed a lot. And frankly, anytime I did, I was usually very drunk, so I wouldn't really. I always kind of thought maybe it doesn't affect me, you know, because I just, I didn't really feel anything different other than extreme.
- [65:47]
B
Oh. And I should say the capsules I had, I was traveling with someone and they sampled one of the lower ones and it made Them high? Yeah, they were like, Dave, all the lights, you know, Suddenly it was like 2001 A Space Odyssey. So it wasn't like, I got two bottles of bad stuff. But you were like, I'm curious. You wouldn't do it today. No, but we go there.
- [66:13]
A
But I am very novelty hungry. So I was like, oh, I want to try that.
- [66:17]
B
We get some of this low dosage stuff. I may have had a couple at that point. I don't remember if I did or not. If I did, it didn't affect me. You said, well, Kevin, I'll be prudent. Even though I'm confident, I'm like you. And I'm not affected by marijuana. I'm just going to have a single one of these low dosage marijuana capsules. So you pick it up from there.
- [66:44]
A
I just want to be clear. I, I, I, I, not, I, I don't, I, I avoid this stuff now mostly actually because of this experience. But I proceeded to take it. And for a while I'm just like, oh, that didn't do anything for me either. And then suddenly, I'm high as a kite. It was terrible at first. So, like, I don't know how to describe this. I became like the most arrogant person in the world. And here's what I mean. Like, when we were talking, I was like, I was like, wow, I have so many good. Like, this is, I don't know how to describe this. This is my thought process. I was like, I have so many good ideas. And, you know, I have all these problems in my life, but you know what? I know if I just dig around in here a little bit, I'm gonna find the solutions to them. And I was just like, it was almost like I was like, all these little ideas are like, shimmering past me, and all I have to do is sort of like, cast my fishing net into the river and pull out the salmon of knowledge, like Finn McCool or something, and of Irish myth, and I will have all of my problems solved. So the, the piece that that feeling gave me was just insane. I was just like, I've got it all worked out. No problem.
- [67:58]
B
One capsule.
- [67:58]
A
One capsule. If you know me, then you know I would have to be extremely high to feel that way. Cause I'm very anxious and I'm.
- [68:06]
B
And during this time, she is fully clothed, laying in bed, motionless.
- [68:13]
A
Didn't you say, like, my eyes were, like, black? Yeah, yeah. So I, I'm just having the best time of my life. And Kevin starts talking to me. Everything he's saying, he Made. You made some dumb jokes.
- [68:25]
B
I made a dumb joke, and you said, so. Wow, that's really deep.
- [68:28]
A
I thought. I thought it was the deepest thing I've heard. I was out of my mind.
- [68:34]
B
And then she was trying to tell me some of her thoughts, and it was just gibberish.
- [68:37]
A
Yeah, it didn't make any sense, but I was really. I was really proud of them. And I kind of like. I felt, well, he's not getting them. But I was like, don't worry. I'll be able to. I'll be able to explain it to him later. I.
- [68:48]
B
And then. And then she slept for 36 hours.
- [68:52]
A
I really passed out. It was crazy. I. Now that's what I hated. I did not like that because I kept on trying to wake up and being like, okay, I'm gonna get up now. And then I'd be like, no, I'm not. So that was terrible. And I would never want to do that again. And I would. Honestly, I've avoided THC in any variety since then because I did not like that feeling. And also, I don't like feeling stupid afterwards because it's like, it made me feel all relaxed at the time. But then I woke up, and I still had all these problems. I was like, I didn't solve anything.
- [69:21]
B
Plus, this was our first trip as a couple. We'd been communicating over the phone. We had, like, five days. You slept for 36 hours.
- [69:27]
A
Oh, you're pretty boring.
- [69:30]
B
I'm delightful.
- [69:32]
A
Well, you know, it was. It was definitely not the high point of our. Of our relationship, but it was. It was pretty funny. It was pretty. But, yeah, that's. That's how I learned that THC is not for me. Plus, it's illegal in Indiana, so obviously we wouldn't break the law. But. But second of all, it was just, you know, it just. I just. I. Also. Learning more about sobriety and learning more about, like, what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do sort of pushed me over the edge in terms of being like, no, I'm not really interested in that anymore. I'm sure it's nice for some people, but for me, I'd. I'd rather be in control of my faculties because otherwise things can go completely off the rails, as we found.
- [70:14]
B
Yeah. And for me, even if I wanted to get high, I can't.
- [70:17]
A
You're not allowed? No. Yeah. It's weird. I wonder if you have some kind of, like, enzyme that you're lacking in your digestion system or if it's something more severe than that because I know some people can't get high off of edibles, but I don't know.
- [70:30]
B
I had a huge amount of those, those capsules, and it didn't help my pain, didn't help me get high. It just did nothing.
- [70:38]
A
Oh, poor Kevin. But, you know, fortunately, your pain has gotten better over time.
- [70:44]
B
Still have bad days.
- [70:45]
A
You still have bad days, but you. You've definitely gotten better. Yeah. If you ever. If we're ever out and you see Kevin looking really, like, not happy, it's not, you know, it's not.
- [70:53]
B
Not because I'm unpleasant.
- [70:55]
A
It's not the listeners. It's not anyone to see. He has, you know, it's people with chronic pain. It's just there's, you know, there's stuff there that, you know, I didn't, you know, I didn't know that at first. I always thought you were always leaning on desk. Like, if we were up at, like, cash register or someone's desk, you wouldn't lean on.
- [71:13]
B
You thought I was like Fonzie.
- [71:14]
A
I thought you were trying to be like Fonzie. I thought you were trying to be like, oh, I'm Mr. Casual. I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And then later on, you're like, oh, no, I'm just, like, dying, just, like, falling apart over here. I felt really bad. I was like, oh, he's Mr. Cool Guy leaning on the desk all like, hey, it's just like, I'm in agony. I can't walk any further. Poor Kevin. All right, well, yeah, that's what happened. There.
- [71:47]
B
Is it now time to move on to the good nights, which will be followed by a button being pushed.
- [71:52]
A
Why are you making sections for everything?
- [71:56]
B
Isn't that helpful?
- [71:57]
A
I guess so.
- [71:58]
B
Well, good night, everybody.
- [71:59]
A
Good night. Bye.
- [72:02]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [72:22]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [72:46]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [72:57]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [73:27]
B
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A
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A
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