The Cheat Sheet: Paternity and Prosecutions

Summary

Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Paternity and Prosecutions"

Date: June 19, 2026
Hosts: Áine (Anya) Cain (journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

Episode Overview

This episode of Murder Sheet delivers a compact roundup of disturbing and thought-provoking crime cases from the United Kingdom, Mexico, and the United States. The hosts, Anya and Kevin, address recent legal developments involving paternity battles, child protection failures, drug-related deaths, and controversial prosecutorial practices. The episode highlights the complexities and emotional toll of these issues, combining personal commentary, legal analysis, and a candid exploration of the failures and trends in justice systems on both sides of the Atlantic.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. UK Case: The Murder of Baby Preston Davey

[04:39 – 14:08]

• Case Summary:

  • In June 2022, baby Preston Davey was born to Sarah Davey—herself a convicted murderer with a history of repeated law enforcement contact since her teen years ([05:47]).
  • Due to Sarah’s history, Preston was removed from her care and placed for adoption ([08:38]).
  • Adopted by a couple in Lancashire—Jamie Varley (a teacher) and John McGowan Fazakerley—Preston suffered horrific abuse, including physical, emotional, and sexual abuse from March to July 2023.
  • Despite repeated hospitalizations for "bruising, seizures, [and] respiratory failures," social workers found nothing “remiss” and Preston was returned to the home each time ([10:11]).
  • On July 27th, 2023, Preston was pronounced dead following cardiac arrest. Autopsy revealed over 40 injuries, some consistent with sexual abuse ([11:00]).
  • Varley received a “whole life order” (life without parole), while McGowan Fazakerley got 25 years. The severity of the sentences is reflective of the rare and egregious cruelty involved.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “The concept of people adopting a child, a vulnerable child coming from an already difficult start to life, and tak[ing] him into their home only for them to inflict all manner of incredibly horrific abuse on him is unthinkable and has, you know, just—people who do that would have no place in society.” – Anya Cain ([13:24])
  • “Why more safeguards? I don’t know. Maybe there need to be more safeguards in instances like this.” – Anya Cain ([13:56])

• Memorable Moment:

  • The host discusses her shock that Preston was not placed with extended family or that the system failed to intervene despite multiple warning signs.

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2. Mexico Case: The Murder of McCalla Pendley

[17:17 – 21:01]

• Case Summary:

  • On June 8, 2026, the body of 30-year-old McCalla Pendley (from Indianapolis) was found in a small Mexican village. She was visibly pregnant and had suffered “extreme violence”—she was raped and beaten to death ([17:31]).
  • Pendley’s seven children, who were with her on the trip, were missing but ultimately found safe.
  • Mexican authorities arrested Joseph Jude Butler, Jr.—the children’s father, who was present when the kids were located.
  • Anya’s research revealed Butler initiated seven paternity cases in November 2025, seeking to establish legal paternity (he filed, she responded/refused DNA testing). A February 2026 decree recognized him as the father “without any DNA testing taking place.”
  • The situation hints at a history of family conflict or turmoil, although no prior violence is specified.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “When it comes to a pregnant woman, the most dangerous person in the household can be a male that they're in a romantic relationship with versus strangers.” – Anya Cain ([18:34])
  • “Very sad for her and her family. It's very disturbing and very sad for those seven kids who don't have a mom now.” – Anya Cain ([20:35])

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3. U.S. Case: Fentanyl Murder Laws in Texas

[21:01 – 25:43]

• Case Summary:

  • The hosts discuss a recent Texas case where Destin Scott was convicted (or pled) under a new "fentanyl murder" law after Morgan Peterson died from fentanyl Scott supplied ([21:01]).
  • This law, seen in other states (including Indiana), allows murder charges for drug suppliers when a death results from their sale.
  • Kevin references previous Murder Sheet interviews:
    • Zach Craig (proponent of fentanyl murder statutes) argues it’s a critical tool for law enforcement.
    • Tim Sled (public defender) voices concerns: Many prosecuted under such laws are themselves addicts; the laws may punish low-level offenders rather than major suppliers ([22:33]).
  • The hosts emphasize the importance of considering all sides of legislative change: "Good people can disagree on how to handle something." ([24:23])

• Notable Quotes:

  • “If you want to try to figure out a way to deal with a complicated problem, such as the growing use of fentanyl in this country, you really have to look at everything, and you have to look at the things that might support your point of view, you have to look at the things that might not support your point of view to try to figure out a way to go forward. The world is an unfathomably complicated place, full of nuance.” – Kevin Greenlee ([24:38])
  • “What everyone should want is for less or, you know, no fentanyl deaths and no people getting addicted to illegal drugs. So whatever we can do to do that, hopefully that's, you know, what everyone can just work towards and see what works, see what doesn't work, and go forward.” – Anya Cain ([25:18])

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4. Pennsylvania Case: Concerns about Prosecutors and Wrongful Convictions

[25:43 – 40:36]

• Case Summary:

  • The Pennsylvania Supreme Court recently ruled that the Philadelphia DA’s Office, led by Larry Krasner, could no longer be trusted to handle wrongful conviction cases independently. Their actions indicated they’d withheld key evidence while trying to overturn convictions—a breach of the adversarial process ([26:10]).
  • The hosts note that this approach—officers of the court seeking to vacate convictions without full transparency—erodes faith in both the innocence movement and the justice system. They emphasize that the adversarial system is designed to reveal the most accurate version of truth when both sides challenge one another.
  • As a result, the Attorney General's office in Pennsylvania will now review any further conviction reversals ([30:40]).
  • Anya draws a broad comparison to the impact that events like George Floyd’s murder had on police credibility, warning of a similar collapse in public trust if prosecutorial abuse persists ([36:28]).

• Notable Quotes:

  • “If you have one side saying, well, we're not even going to bother to defend this, that does raise some issues where perhaps a point of view is not being represented in court.” – Kevin Greenlee ([26:50])
  • “Anything that revolves around concealing information from higher courts can't be the way that we have a more just society.” – Anya Cain ([34:39])
  • “The truth matters. And the truth is, it's our fifth wedding anniversary and it's been, it's been a wonderful five years.” – Kevin Greenlee ([40:36])

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Memorable Moments

• Self-Reflective Banter & Transparency

  • Throughout, Anya and Kevin humorously discuss recording multiple episodes in a session, referencing “Match Game” taping loopy episodes and promising to maintain professionalism ([01:29–03:03]).

• Fifth Wedding Anniversary Mention

  • The couple reflects on five years of marriage and their working partnership—providing a charming, personal close to a heavy episode ([40:36 – 41:58]).
    • “You're the best. I love being married to this man because...you're a little sweetie and I love you and it's really fun to work with you.” – Anya Cain ([40:46])
    • “You're an endless delight. Endless fount of fun.” – Kevin Greenlee ([41:07])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Topic/Case | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 04:39 | UK: Baby Preston Davey abuse/murder case | | 14:08 | (Ad break – skipped) | | 17:17 | Mexico: Murder of McCalla Pendley | | 21:01 | Texas: Fentanyl murder law, policy debate | | 25:43 | Pennsylvania: Prosecutors, wrongful convictions, ethics | | 40:36 | Anniversary celebration and episode wrap-up |

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

• Tone:
  • Candid, empathetic, occasionally sardonic; the hosts balance journalistic rigor with personal commentary.
• Themes:
  • The tragic consequences of systemic failure (child protection, justice reform).
  • How prosecutorial ethics and legal policy (fentanyl murder laws, wrongful conviction units) deeply affect individuals and public trust.
  • Advocacy for full transparency and honest reckoning with uncomfortable truths.

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For listeners new to Murder Sheet, this episode stands out for its insightful legal analysis, clear-eyed reporting on emotionally charged crimes, and honest discussion about the complicated, often contradictory, realities of justice and social trust.

Transcript

[A]

My name is Shannon Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop. From the lens of artists and handmade objects, I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales, like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you is it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on shopify.com I'm

[B]

Anya and today we're going to do a cheat sheet that takes us abroad

[C]

to Mexico and the United Kingdom.

[B]

Content WARNING this episode contains discussion of violence and murder, as well as the murder of a pregnant woman and the sexual exploitation and murder of a baby.

[D]

So I want to say a couple things quickly. First, we've been having a lot of fun doing special episodes for Apple Premium and Patreon Premium. And if getting the. If you want even more episodes from us acting crazy, please join us there. You also get early episodes, ad free episodes.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

[D]

And then I wanted to say we're doing something today that's unprecedented and it might just blow up in our faces, leaving us looking like Yosemite Sam after the ship full of explosives blows up.

[B]

Yeah, that's how we look every day, though.

[D]

We're going to try to do, for reasons I'm sure I knew at one point, but we're going to try to do three episodes of Cheat Sheet today and release them, you know, the next three weeks. So first of all, a lot can happen in two weeks. And so, like, by the time the third of these episodes is released, you know, I could be dead and then it would be like an eerie message from beyond the grave. And also there could be like all sorts of major technological advancements that would make these episodes sound like something from. From a more antiquated time.

[B]

Why do you say things to upset me?

[D]

And then it's also entirely possible. I remember I'm so old. It's. As a child, I used to watch the Match Game game show and they always used they would do five episodes a day. They would record and they'd always say, the last couple of episodes, everybody's loopy because they were tired from recording all day. Plus sometimes they had, you know, a liquid lunch. And we're not going to have the liquid lunch. But I wonder if by the end of episode three Three, will we be be completely loopy and crazy and insane and is that something people should be listening for? What do you think, Anya?

[B]

No, I think we're respected professionals who are going to keep it together and do a job, and that's how it's going to go down.

[D]

So. So you're saying if I'd kept quiet, no one would know? It's not going to be eerie messages from beyond the grave? It's not going to be a message for more anti.

[B]

No, I think we can just go the music now.

[D]

Okay. Okay, let's do it.

[C]

My name is Anya Cain.

[B]

I'm a journalist.

[D]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[C]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[D]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[C]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet.

[B]

Paternity and prosecutions.

[A]

It.

[D]

So this is episode one. So this should be no problem here. This one should be up.

[B]

I feel like you're just confusing people.

[D]

This one should be up to the rigorous, high standards you're used to.

[B]

Just skip it, you know, I don't. I don't think everyone needs to know how the sausage gets made around here. That's my take, you know. You know, let's. Let's not air out our dirty cheat sheet laundry.

[D]

I believe in transparency with our dear friends listeners.

[B]

Yeah, well, let's go to Mexico. No, actually, no. Let's go to the United Kingdom first. I always try to start with the most depressing case simply to kind of get that over with. And Kevin tends to pick less depressing cases than I, so. I mean, all cases are depressing if they end in murder, Right? But it was something about a case involving a young child, or in this case, a baby. Especially galling and upsetting. So if you want to skip ahead through this first case, you know, if that's a sensitive issue for you, then certainly please feel free to do so. This is a case that a listener asked us to cover and it. My source for this was predominantly articles with the BBC. And what, what happened in this situation is. I mean, it's. I don't know, it's very, very sad and it's very, very disturbing. So on June 16, 2022, a baby boy named Preston Davey was born. And he was the child of a woman named Sarah Davey, the biological child of her. And she was a woman with an extremely troubled history. In 1998, when she was only 14, she and another girl lured a 71 year old woman named Lily Lilly, who is a vulnerable, frail, elderly widow and grandmother living in Failsworthy near Manchester, I think. And these girls basically encounter her and they say she, I guess, invited them back to her house for a cup of tea. And 14 year old Sarah Davey and 15 year old Lisa Healy attacked her in her home. They put shampoo in her eyes, they gagged her so tightly that she ultimately choked on her own dentures. So they brutally murdered this woman and then put her body into a wheelie bin and were like giggling and chuckling before dumping that bin into a canal. They stole a bunch of her pension money to buy snacks. And yeah, ultimately they were caught and Davey was given a mandatory life sentence with a minimum term of eight years. But, you know, I think partly because she was so young when this happened. I mean, I think in the United States a case like that often leads to a pretty significant time in prison, even when it's a younger offender. And sometimes there are efforts to charge young offenders as adults if the crime is heinous enough or if the circumstances merit it. In this case, she, she gets out, but she continues to have a bunch of legal issues throughout her, her life. And she's, you know, she's in and out of jail essentially for, for her whole life. So my understanding, like the term there is like breaching license, like she keeps getting in trouble. So when, when Preston is born, therefore he's, you know, significantly more at risk for, you know, possibly getting removed from her care. Right. And, and that is, that is exactly what happens when, you know, essentially he's, he's taken from, from Sarah and her family and then placed in up for adoption. And he ends up going to a

[D]

couple

[B]

named Jamie Varley and that he was a teacher and Varley who? Varley's partner, John McGowan Fazakerley. Sorry if I'm saying that wrong. And that's in Lancashire. And so, yeah, so he goes to this couple. So you're thinking, okay, well good, you know, maybe being with a woman who doesn't have her life together and is capable of extreme violence, like that may be good, but this story gets so much worse than that because it's not, it's not as I told it to you in one way, but the whole, it's gonna flip on its head in a minute. So, you know, he's nine months old when he goes into Varley's care, when he's put up for adoption, the adoption process, and that's in about March of 2023. From March to July of 2023, Preston is subjected by his adoptive parents to physical abuse, emotional abuse and sexual abuse. We're talking about a nine month old child, we're talking about a baby. And over the course of several months he is hospitalized a number of times. They're concerned, you know, there's concerns around that there's, he's going to the hospital, but every time he's put back out and he's given back to this couple, social workers are not finding anything

[C]

remiss

[B]

about the home, but he's having these kind of telltale injuries that are, you know, bruising, seizures, respiratory failures all at once. And yeah, unfortunately, maybe if someone had caught this then he would still be alive. But on July 27th he's at 20, 23. He is taken around 6:30 in the evening. He's taken to Blackpool Victoria Hospital. He's unconscious, he's in cardiac arrest and he's pronounced dead. Later that night, both of his adoptive parents are arrested because Varley's story makes no sense. He says, I just left him for a few minutes and I went. And then he drowned in the bath. He's not wet, there's no indication of drowning. Instead, what a post mortem, rather an autopsy finds, is just 40 external internal injuries, traumatic injuries which are, some of which are consistent with sexual abuse and I'll leave it at that. But we're talking about a baby. So ultimately, yeah, jury, the juries heard this, they, you know, kind of weighed over this, these murder charges. They actually had to start one of the trials over again because a juror couldn't handle this. Like just one can understand that certainly. But ultimately the outcome of this is that this, this, well, they both got different sentences. So McGowan, Fazza, Kerley, he got 25 years, right? And then Varley was found guilty of murder and multiple sexual offenses and he received a whole life term. So what does that mean in terms of how does that play out then for Varley? What ends up happening is that he's not eligible for parole with a whole life order. He's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. Although they said that there can still exist exceptional compassionate grounds. So I don't know, I don't know why anyone would extend compassion to someone who did this to a baby. But I guess that's still on the table. But what we've been informed by, you know, British and UK based listeners is that these kinds of whole life orders are pretty rare. So the fact that the court handed that down is a testament to the absolutely horrific abuse that little Preston went through and how serious this is. And the concept of people adopting a child, a vulnerable child coming from an already difficult start to life and take him into their home only for them to inflict all manner of incredibly horrific abuse on him is unthinkable and has, you know, just people who do that would have no place in society. Yeah, that is, that's the story of Preston. Very, very sad and just kind of shows you that, you know, I mean, I don't know why he wasn't placed with closer family members, you know, but I mean, seemingly one can, one can look at his mother's history and understand some of that. But why, you know, why More safeguards? I don't know. Maybe there need to be more safeguards in instances like this. Anyways, that's that story.

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[B]

Quince.commsheet and I picked two abroad cases today. So I mean two, two cases outside the United States where we're based. So we're going to Mexico next. Source for this one was wthr predominantly. I also got on my case, looked at some things. Very sad situation where recently, Monday, June 8, 2026, the body of a 30 year old young woman from Indianapolis, Indiana was found in Mexico in a small village. Her name is, what was McCalla Pendley. And unfortunately her, her body apparently bore signs of extreme violence. She'd been raped, she had been beaten to death. And that's according to her family and a local prosecutor. She had been dead between 8 and 12 hours. And even more disturbingly, I mean, not that that's not horrific enough. She was six months pregnant and even worse than that, she was on a trip with seven children. Her seven kids were with her and they were nowhere to be found. So that's all very concerning. Fortunately, Mexican authorities find the kids safe. So I will say that they survived. But you know, this is one of those scary cases and I think initially maybe some people were like, oh, did she just get randomly murdered in Mexico like on vacation? Is it one of those kind of really scary things where you Go abroad for a nice trip, and then it goes wrong. Well, at this point, Mexican authorities are saying that the danger for McCalla was actually a lot closer to home. They arrested Joseph Jude Butler, Jr. Butler was the father of McCullough's children, her seven children, and he was with them when he was found. So he has been arrested and they're looking at that. Her family has expressed surprise about this to media outlets, but unfortunately, you know, and I'm not weighing in on this case yet. I mean, obviously authorities can get things wrong, but when it comes to a pregnant woman, the most dangerous person in. In the household can be an. You know, can be a male that they're in a romantic relationship with versus strangers. Now, here's what I. I went on my case for this reason. I wanted to see what the history between Butler and Pendley was. When I searched her name, all I found were seven paternity cases, all filed the same day, November 21, 2025. Butler was the petitioner, so he was the one who filed these. And McCullough was the respondent or responder. I forget what the term is. But the. Basically, Butler was seeking to establish paternity. There was a motion to compel DNA testing. Butler's team accused Pendley of not, you know, making herself or the children available for that. And ultimately, on February 5, 2026, a decree of paternity was signed saying that Butler was the father of the children, although it noted that it was signed without any DNA testing taking place. All that points to certainly some back and forth or some, I guess, I don't want to say drama, because that minimizes it some. Some kind of a consternation, I guess, between these two about the paternity of the children and kind of a quarrel about that. So certainly doesn't indicate, though, anyone's gonna kill anybody, but can point to something. So that's what happened in Mexico. Very sad for her and her family. It's very disturbing and very sad for those seven kids who don't have a mom now. And then that poor unborn baby.

[D]

It's just awful, terrible, terrible stuff. So I'm going to return to this country, country, the Great United States of America, and going to Texas. And my source for this was dpdbeat.com and it's the main reason I wanted to talk about this is because it touches on something we've covered earlier, and this is the fact that in Texas, there was recently a case where a person named Morgan Peterson died after taking some fentanyl. I believe that he procured from someone named Destin Scott. And for the first time in Texas, Mr. Scott was able to be convicted of this new offense, or actually, I think he may have pled to it. But it's a new offense called fentanyl murder. And this is a new offense that we've seen in other states, including Indiana, where basically it says that if you sell a drug to someone which results in them dying, you can be charged with murder. And this is something we've covered extensively on this show. We went up to Muncie, Indiana. We had a long talk with Zach Craig.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he was great.

[D]

In which he discussed all the reasons why he thought this law was important. He's actually running for judge now. He discussed all the reasons why he felt this was an important law, why he felt that it is an important toolbox for people in law enforcement to be able to use to help fight the scourge of fentanyl in this country. We also, on this program, we always love getting the other point of view. We also had a conversation with Tim Sled. Yeah, love Tim, Public defender down in Bedford, in which he talked about some of the concerns he has with the law, one of which I believe is that a lot of the people who get convicted under it are themselves people who are addicted to drugs and who themselves may be victims of drug abuse.

[B]

Also, that, like, if you're in a war and you're targeting the lowly foot soldiers, you know, maybe that's less effective. I think he had a kind of a logistical or practical view of it, too.

[D]

So I mention this because I think it's an interesting topic, and I think it's well worth diving into maybe listening to those old shows and thinking about. But it's also very interesting because, you know, you heard Anya. She loves Zach Craig. She loves Tim Sled. These are both.

[B]

I love everybody. I'm famous for it.

[D]

That's right. These are both. Anya. Anya is like a kid show host. She just loves everybody of all races.

[B]

You guys know that. You guys know that.

[D]

She's easygoing, pleasant.

[B]

I never get mad, Fred. Well, never been mad in my life.

[D]

We see that holds out through the end of the program.

[B]

But, oh, no, what did you do?

[D]

But I think it's important to note that good people can disagree on how to handle something. Just because someone has a different point of view in a complicated matter doesn't mean that that person is a bad guy. And it's also important to note that if you want to try to figure out a way to deal with with a complicated problem, such as the growing use of fentanyl in this country, you really have to look at everything, and you have to look at the things that might support your point of view, you have to look at the things that might not support your point of view to try to figure out a way to go forward. The world is an unfathomably complicated place, full of nuance.

[B]

Well said, sir. And I would say, you know, in terms of. In terms of that, I think, you know, it is complicated. What everyone should want is for less or, you know, no fentanyl deaths and no people getting addicted to illegal drugs. So whatever we can do to do that, hopefully that's, you know, what everyone can just work towards and see what works, see what doesn't work, and. And go forward.

[D]

But I'm talking about the principle of let's lay all the facts on the table, let's test all the facts. And that's obviously something that's very important in everything, including this fentanyl issue and also other areas as well. Which brings us to the great state of Pennsylvania. I think you told me you like to call that state the Keystone State.

[C]

I never.

[B]

I never told you that.

[D]

Well, maybe. Maybe I miss. I misremember. But I thought that's what you said. You said, it's the Keystone State, Kevin. It's the foundation for everything. So there is a case going on there, and my source for this is the Hanford Sentinel. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court recently issued a ruling concerning some actions taken by Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner and his office. Mr. Krasner's office has been seeking to overturn a lot of murder convictions, saying, oh, we think that the prosecutor's office in the past has done some bad things, so we can't stand by these convictions. And first of all, one problem there is. The whole foundation of the criminal justice system is based on an adversarial system, which means that basically, if Anya gets arrested for stealing boxes of cereal, we're going to have someone stand up and talk at length, which would be very easy to do. Talk at length about how bad Anya is, talk at length about all of the massive evidence against her. But then Anya is going to have someone stand up and say, no, I'm actually a princess among women. I would never dream of stealing cereal, blah, blah, blah. And then both sides are going to test the other person's point of view and arguments. And through that process of each side challenging each other, each side presenting its best evidence, some semblance of truth is going to be reached that's what our system is based on. And if you have one side saying, well, we're not even going to bother to defend this, that does raise some issues where perhaps a point of view is not being represented in court. And maybe the end result isn't something that we might have as much confidence in as we would have otherwise. It's obvious that this office, when they are taking these positions and making these arguments to toss out convictions, they're not telling the whole story. They are withholding key pieces of information and evidence. For instance, in this particular case, there was a key witness who identified the defendant, Mr. Brown, as being implicated in a murder. And the prosecutors did not disclose that statement to the other side or to the judge. So they're holding stuff, facts that doesn't support their position.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, they're like true crime podcast.

[D]

Yeah, I was going to say that. What I fear we are seeing here is innocence fraud, which we see so often in true crime podcasts. The techniques of that are now infecting how some prosecutors offices are doing business there. There's another case where a supervisor in the appellate unit of this office was disbarred because he lied while trying to overturn a death penalty.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[D]

It's a disturbing pattern where this office is withholding information that challenges their contention that certain people are innocent or have been treated unfairly. And then their conclusions are not being challenged in court because there's no one really saying, no one in a position to say, wait a minute, they're not telling you this or this or this. Because again, if Anya is being accused of stealing cereal, and I present only half of the facts to convict her, you need someone else to stand up and say, here's the rest of the story. Here's why. Some of the things that Kevin, as the state is saying may not be completely accurate. So they are holding stuff back. There's no one really there to challenge them. And it's troubling. It's deeply, deeply troubling. And so what the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania has done is they've said, well, from now on, basically, we don't really trust this office. So from now on, if they are going to say a conviction should be overturned, we're going to have the state Attorney General's office look at it and analyze it and see what they think. Because basically this. This prosecutor's office is no longer worthy of our trust. What do you think of all this, Anya?

[B]

I think it's a disgrace. He's quoted as saying that acting as an advert acting as an adversary and overturning wrongful convictions is, quote, doesn't help safety, it doesn't help democracy, doesn't help freedom. But that's okay because we know where we are in the fight, and once we get past the fight, we all win. End quote. Yeah, except for the victim's family, sir. And except for the cause of justice. If you're basically lying, I mean, like, that's what this is. I mean, listen, I'm a. I'm, in many ways, I consider myself, you know, a bit of a bleeding heart, right? Like, I think if someone is. Is wrongfully convicted, do I want a prosecutor's office to stand in the way of that person getting out and perhaps the correct person being identified? Of course not. No one should not want that. We should all want that. But a lot of these cases are a lot more complicated than we've been led to believe. And when you have one side basically views prosecutors. I mean, when you have one side who views prosecutors. I'm sorry, when you have the prosecutors themselves who view their role as essentially the bad guys, Right. I mean, I think people like this tend to think, oh, the prosecutors are the bad guys because they're locking up the. The poor and the downtrodden. Right? And we. We need to undo that. Like, it's not your job to remake what a prosecutor's office is and what they're doing. Like, this is our system of laws. It's our systems of government. Have a revolution, right? I mean, like, throw, like, burn down the country. Burn down, you know, the way we do things. Fine. And change it. But, like, you don't get to come in and say, actually, I want to. You know, if I apply to be a bus driver, I don't get to say, well, I think I'm actually gonna just start driving on the bus paths because I think that is better for all the drivers and myself, and I think that's the way we should do things. And it just feels like increasingly you have prosecutors who are doing that. And it's not to say that they don't have any points. In many ways, our justice system has issues of inequity, has issues of, you know.

[D]

Absolutely right. Like, I'm like, wrongful convictions happen. There are people sitting in prison now.

[B]

They don't happen to any degree.

[D]

There are people sitting in prison now who are genuinely wrongly convicted. And I believe stuff like this makes it more difficult to find and remedy those actual cases. I don't.

[B]

I don't think it. I mean, honestly, like, we I mean, like, that's a nice thing to say, but I don't even know if that's the, the big issue here. I think the big issue is that you have people essentially blowing up what they're supposed to be doing, you know, and, and, and frankly, you know, maybe, maybe in some cases it obscures the true wrongful conviction case, but I don't think those are the things most harmed in this. I think the most harmed is you have people who have been harmed either because they're, you know, their loved one is dead or because they've been, you know, themselves the victim of a crime. And, and when you have prosecutors sort of just unilaterally deciding, well, we're just going to withhold information in order to get those people out, I think those people are the most harmed. I mean, honestly. And I think. But what I was saying is that, like, some of these people have this idea that it's, you know, that the justice system is racist or there's inequity based on how much money you have or this or that. And I think some of those things can be true and some of those things can be real problems. But anything that revolves around concealing information from higher courts can't be the way that we have a more just society.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely not. Because if your position is right, then you should have confidence that looking at the full picture will justify that. And I would have a message to people out there who make this, that one of their big issues, wrongful convictions, being something that they are uniquely concerned about. If you are one of these people who believe wrongful convictions is a huge problem, you really should take a close look at things like this, because we are getting to a stage in things where most people hear about a wrongful conviction, either via a podcast or in the media, and the first question that comes to their mind, and I see this in emails we get, I see this all over social media, the first thing that comes to their mind is, what is this person leaving out? People are becoming more and more skeptical of this sort of thing. And if you believe that wrongful convictions is a huge problem, by supporting this sort of thing, you're making it worse because you're making people doubt the claims of wrongful convictions more and more. And you're going to make it harder to find and help the people who truly are victims of wrongful convictions, because you are going to be judged with everybody else in the group who's basically saying everybody under the sun is wrongfully convicted.

[B]

I'm going to go further Than that. I'm going to go further than that. Oh, George Floyd. We saw a massive, massive backlash and a crumbling of the credibility that police agencies have in this country. You know, there were. There were signs before that. I'm not putting it all on that, but that was definitely, like, the point of no return. And we saw that, right? And there were. And I think there were absolutely understandable and good reasons for that. And, you know, and if it spurred on changes like body cameras, you know, good. But we saw that. We saw that collapse in real time. And if this keeps going the way it's going, I'm not saying it'll be quite to that degree, but there will be a collapse of credibility in the innocence movement, and it will have reverberations beyond just an individual case. And from what we see, you know, that the normies are waking up, and people are sick of being lied to. People are sick of being conned into supporting criminals, and people who are not wrongfully convicted. People are sick of being manipulated. So much of this is about manipulation. You know, that's why they're lying, because they need that. Like, that's all they have. And. And I think that there's going to be a collapse. And, you know, as. As someone who considers myself very skeptical of the innocence movement, I still think that in at least some cases, that can be a good thing. Or maybe they have, like, maybe like, just because, you know, you have to, like, at least scrutinize things. I would. I don't want to see it collapse in the sense that it's like, oh, I just want the lies to stop. You know what I mean? Like, I want. I want us to save some of this for when there's actually a case where it merits it and not like, every case being treated like it needs this. And I. I've just grown incredibly skeptical of the whole thing. I grow incredibly skeptical of activists associated with it and. And of. Of attorneys associated with it in any. Whether they're, you know, whether on the defense side or the prosecution side. In some cases, I think people are being. People are sick of it. People are sick of the lies, and they have an integrity problem, and they have a credibility problem, and it's not going to get any better. Like, they need to dial it back. And frankly, it's very hard to fundraise on, oh, well, this guy's probably guilty. But there were some legitimate problems with the trial. It's hard, right? The public doesn't care about that. The public's like, good, we're not going to let him out in a technicality. You and I know actually the integrity of his trial matters because it affects all of us.

[D]

Right, but that's not a message that people respond.

[B]

No, it's not emotional.

[D]

The message people respond to, the message that makes people reach into their wallets is this person is actually innocent.

[B]

And this person's good. This is a good guy, this is a nice guy. This could have been you. That's what they respond to. And again, I think it's a lot, a lot about money. It's a lot about like, you know, social cloud. It's about positioning themselves. But the problem with all that is then when you rely on unethical and frankly, dubious tactics in order to get there, you know, you have clay feet and it's going to fall down at some point. I think it's already starting. But yeah, this is like the, you know, the justices and the, the higher courts are even catching on to it. I really just don't feel like this is a prosecutor's job. I mean, listen, I, again, I don't know what the remedy is here. I don't know enough about like, I'm not saying someone shouldn't have a wrongful conviction unit or in conviction integrity unit or that a prosecutor should just fight to the death to keep someone in prison when the case is falling apart. I'm not saying that. But you shouldn't need to hide information from a court in order to like do the right thing in any situation. Like that seems pretty self evident.

[D]

Absolutely. So the truth matters. And the truth is it's our fifth wedding anniversary and it's been, it's been a wonderful five years.

[B]

You're the best. I love being married to this man because, because you're a little sweetie and I love you and it's really fun to work with you. You're very, you're very, you're very silly. But you're also very smart. And it's very, it's fun. It's fun. I'm always very impressed. I'm always like very, you know, you come to me with like something you found and I'm like, dang, that's awesome.

[D]

And you're an endless delight.

[B]

I don't think I am.

[D]

Endless fount of fun.

[B]

That's not true. But I, I'm just like, I'm just very honored and, and I love you so much. And if any of you guys are looking for love, get on newspapers dot com. No, I'm just kidding. But no, you should, but if you, you know, I think Just look for stuff where you're interested and you'll find like minded people and you might find some good friends or you might find the love of your life. And that's what I did.

[D]

Should I admit to people that we almost forgot it was our anniversary?

[C]

We literally.

[B]

Wait, weren't we doing something case related when. No, we were. We were talking. We were talking with somebody and like, I saw, like, on Facebook, it was like, wedding pictures. And I was like, oh, no. And I think I texted you while we were talking to someone like, is it our freaking anniversary? And you were like, oh, no, but we're gonna go do something. It'll be fun.

[D]

We're so romantic. No, we're gonna go, like, look at flowers and eat at a restaurant.

[B]

That's pretty good. That's pretty romantic.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know,

[D]

that's our plan that we put together.

[B]

Pretty crazy.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we appreciate y' all listening.

[D]

And so this is the end of the first of three episodes we're recording.

[B]

Why do you keep.

[C]

Tell.

[B]

Tell them about that?

[D]

I believe in being transparent and people can, like, listen.

[B]

Nick is literally burying himself in the couch. Covering. His head is covered. We. Oh, this. I. I'm seeing this all unfold in real time. Okay, Nicholas, this is.

[D]

This is uncouth, but this episode was fine, right? So let's see if we can maintain this high quality for the next two weeks worth of.

[B]

I guess we'll find out. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening.

[D]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[B]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[D]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail].

[B]

if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[C]

We do try to check our email

[B]

account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.