The Cheat Sheet: Perpetrators and Puzzles

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Perpetrators and Puzzles"

Release Date: November 22, 2024

Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee return to their "cheat sheet" format, presenting a compilation of intriguing true crime stories from various locales. They delve into the complexities of each case, offering insightful discussions on the legal implications and psychological aspects surrounding each incident.

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Case 1: Indianapolis – The Shanti Dixon Murder

Overview: The episode opens with a harrowing account of the murder of Shanti Dixon in Indianapolis, Indiana. Shanti was found deceased on September 9, 2024, at 1800 Wagner Lane. Detective Larry Krasnoy leads the investigation, which quickly points to Francisco Valadez, Shanti's Uber driver.

Key Details:

• Discovery of the Body: Shanti was discovered naked, with a sweatshirt over her head, lying on her stomach. Initial evidence included blue gloves, orange sandals, and items suggesting she was dragged (Transcript [00:00]–[10:33]).

• Uber Connection: Shanti had taken an Uber from the Sunset Strip at 3:34 AM and was later found north of her apartment. The Uber driver, Francisco Valadez, was promptly identified and questioned ([12:09]–[22:07]).

Valadez’s Inconsistent Statements:

• Initial Claim: Valadez initially stated that a black male attempted to rob Shanti, resulting in her being shot in the leg ([22:07]–[26:33]).

• Evolving Story: Under further questioning, Valadez altered his narrative, claiming he shot Shanti in self-defense after she allegedly attacked him with a gun ([26:33]–[30:44]).

• Final Confession: Valadez later admitted to sexually assaulting Shanti's corpse and disposing of her belongings, adding layers of complexity to the case ([30:44]–[38:00]).

Legal Implications: Kevin Greenlee highlights the significance of Valadez waiving his right to an attorney, a decision that allowed incriminating statements to surface without legal representation ([23:16]–[24:23]). The trial, initially set for November 18, 2024, has been postponed to February 10, 2025, amidst ongoing investigations and protective orders regarding discovery ([32:57]–[38:34]).

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain expresses empathy for Shanti’s family:
  “I just, my heart goes out to them. That's incredibly horrifying and traumatic.” ([08:25])

• Kevin Greenlee questions Valadez’s delayed response in reporting the gunshot:
  “I would not wait until I leisurely drive home to call the authorities.” ([17:39])

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Case 2: The Bronx – Self-Defense or Overreaction?

Overview: The hosts transition to a case from the Bronx, New York, involving Hiro Castillo and Julio Lebron. This case explores the thin line between self-defense and excessive use of force.

Key Details:

• Confrontation: In 2016, Julio Lebron threatened Castillo with a razor blade, leading to a physical altercation where Castillo shot Lebron as he was walking away.

• Legal Debate: The case has sparked debate among New York judges regarding whether Castillo’s actions constitute legitimate self-defense, especially since the shots were fired while Lebron was retreating ([33:04]–[40:17]).

Discussion Points:

• Self-Defense Boundaries: Kevin Greenlee and Áine Cain debate the legality and morality of using lethal force when the perceived threat diminishes.
  Kevin: “I would want more information... to understand what was in the mind of the person who fired the shot.” ([38:00])

• Judicial Discrepancies: The differing opinions among judges demonstrate the complexities in appellate court decisions concerning self-defense claims.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain emphasizes fairness in judicial decisions:
  “If it's something where you're like, I don't know, either way, it's kind of in the middle, then the thing to do is to say it's not.” ([39:24])

• Kevin Greenlee underscores the challenges in defining self-defense:
  “This is a tricky issue... it just has to be looked at... based on whatever the facts of the particular situation are.” ([40:17])

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Case 3: Los Angeles – The Mysterious Disappearance of Hannah Kobayashi

Overview: The third case centers on Hannah Kobayashi, a woman from Maui who vanished in Los Angeles after her last known communication on November 11, 2024.

Key Details:

• Flight Plans: Hannah was scheduled to fly from Maui to New York via Los Angeles but never boarded her connecting flight ([40:17]–[43:51]).

• Last Communications: Disturbing texts from Hannah indicated possible identity theft or a mental health crisis, raising concerns about her well-being ([41:49]–[44:07]).

• Sightings: There have been a few sightings of Hannah post-disappearance, but none have provided conclusive evidence of her fate ([43:51]–[44:49]).

Discussion Points:

• Mental Health vs. Foul Play: The hosts speculate whether Hannah’s disappearance is due to a mental health crisis or coercion by another party, emphasizing the need for public assistance in locating her.

• Family’s Role: Áine Cain applauds the family's efforts in raising awareness to aid in Hannah’s search, likening it to the strategies used in past missing person cases ([46:19]–[47:11]).

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain draws parallels to other missing person cases:
  “This reminds me of the 2006 disappearance of Jesse Foster... seemed like Jesse was a victim of sex trafficking.” ([42:25])

• Kevin Greenlee highlights the importance of public involvement:
  “Public pressure... is potentially a source of information for police and law enforcement.” ([46:19])

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Case 4: Pensacola – Jury Mishap in the Agee Case

Overview: The final case discussed involves Keith and Sheila Agee and Brooklyn Sims in Pensacola, Florida. The legal proceedings faced a major setback due to juror misconduct, resulting in a mistrial.

Key Details:

• Threat and Murder Plot: Keith Agee, influenced by his mother Sheila, threatened to harm Brooklyn Sims over alleged infidelity, as evidenced by incriminating text messages ([47:11]–[50:16]).

• Juror Misconduct: During trial deliberations, a juror engaged in inappropriate behavior by solving crossword puzzles and expressed feelings of unsafety, leading to the declaration of a mistrial ([52:42]–[56:30]).

Discussion Points:

• Impact of Juror Actions: The hosts discuss how one juror's lack of seriousness can derail the entire judicial process, causing additional trauma to the victim’s family and wasting public resources.

• Legal Boundaries: Kevin Greenlee points out the limitations within Florida law that prevent the replacement of a juror once deliberations have begun, emphasizing the rigidity of the legal system in maintaining trial integrity ([55:43]–[56:14]).

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain criticizes the mother’s involvement:
  “What kind of parent is going to encourage a young person... to do something that's going to take you away from your child forever?” ([49:36])

• Kevin Greenlee underscores the severity of juror negligence:
  “This one particular juror seems to be at the center of this. And the end result is that a mistrial is declared...” ([56:14]–[57:27])

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Conclusion

In "The Cheat Sheet: Perpetrators and Puzzles," Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee navigate through a spectrum of true crime cases, each presenting unique challenges and discussions. From questioning the authenticity of self-defense claims to highlighting the fragility of the judicial process, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive look into the intricate world of true crime investigations and legal battles.

Call to Action: The hosts encourage listeners to support their work through merchandise purchases and Patreon subscriptions, fostering a community dedicated to in-depth true crime storytelling.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Áine Cain on the Indianapolis case:
  “I just, my heart goes out to them. That's incredibly horrifying and traumatic.” ([08:25])

• Kevin Greenlee questioning delayed reporting:
  “I would not wait until I leisurely drive home to call the authorities.” ([17:39])

• Áine Cain on self-defense fairness:
  “If it's something where you're like, I don't know, either way, it's kind of in the middle, then the thing to do is to say it's not.” ([39:24])

• Kevin Greenlee on judicial complexities:
  “This is a tricky issue... based on whatever the facts of the particular situation are.” ([40:17])

• Áine Cain on public involvement in missing persons:
  “This reminds me of the 2006 disappearance of Jesse Foster... seemed like Jesse was a victim of sex trafficking.” ([42:25])

• Kevin Greenlee on mistrial implications:
  “This one particular juror seems to be at the center of this. And the end result is that a mistrial is declared...” ([56:14])

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Note: This summary aims to encapsulate the essence of the episode while highlighting significant discussions and insights shared by the hosts. For a deeper understanding and comprehensive details, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of serious topics like mental health as well as violence and murder and sexual assault. So today on the Murder Sheet, we're returning to our cheat sheet format. For those of you who might be new listeners. This is where at the end of each week, we kind of run down a number of different true crime stories that we found interesting. We talk about some of the facts, some of the legal implications. At the end, we do an awkward advertisement for our T shirts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you feel that's. That's an integral part of the format.

[Anya Cain]

It is, It's. It's baked in at this point. Can't deny it. But that's where we are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we've been, we've mentioned on the show, we're interested in your suggestions for any changes we should make in the show going forward. A number of people love the ad so much, at least when one of us does them, that they feel that the entire show from now on should be ads with maybe no 30 seconds at the end for content.

[Anya Cain]

Why are you starting off this segment by threatening our audience?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't understand, but I'm just saying this is. This week is Anya's turn for the ad, and I'm sure she can live up to those high standards.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. So you're basically trying to set me up to fail, let everyone know, hey, don't worry. Check out next week. That's what I'm doing. It. Is that what you're basically trying to do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, no, I'm not going to hit the music yet. I'm going to give a description on what we're actually going to be talking about. So today, our cases come from all over the place, actually. First one's going to be in our backyard, Indianapolis, Indiana. And thanks very much to the tipster who brought that to our attention. Then we're going to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Second one's kind of in your old backyard.

[Anya Cain]

My own. My old backyard. My. My family roots. The Bronx, New York. And then we're going to do one where the, the, the person at the center of it is from Maui, one of the Hawaiian islands, but she is unfortunately missing in Los Angeles, California. And then the last one is in Pensacola, fl. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the cheat sheet. Perpetrators and puzz. So, as I mentioned, this first case comes out of Indianapolis, and I want to just have the caveat. This is a Very disturbing one. We're going to talk about sexual assault in depth, and it's just horrifying. So keep that in mind if you want to skip ahead. Skipping ahead a few minutes. That's. That's okay. But this, the information I got for this one, it pretty much exclusively came from the documents on my case. This was investigated by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, and it's an ongoing murder case. And the lead detective seems to be Larry Krasinoy, and he's also the affiant with the probable cause affidavit. So he's the detective saying, here are all the facts. Here's why we believe probable cause was reached in this case and why this man should be arrested. And spoiler alert, this man was arrested and is now facing murder charges. We missed a lot of this because we were covering the deli murders, but we'll go back. So I guess maybe what I'm gonna do is read portions of the pca, Kevin, and then we can kind of pause and assess them. Okay, so let's start out. Quote, affidavit for probable cause, State of Indiana, county of Marion. Detective Larry Krasnoy swears or affirms that on Monday, September 9, 2024, officers with IMPD. Southeast District were called to 1800 Wagner for a body found at a dead end. Officers arrived and located the female. She was pronounced deceased at 1.10pm the female was naked with a sweatshirt pulled up over her head and arms lying on her stomach. Homicide was requested to the scene. Detective Larry Krasnoy along with other homicide detectives responded to the scene. Crime lab was requested to process the scene for evidence. Detective Krasnoy spoke to RD who stated the female that was found was her daughter, Shanti Dixon. RD stated that her daughter had been missing since early Sunday morning, September 8, 2024. RD said that her daughter got off work at around 3:30am Sunday morning at the Sunset Strip and took an Uber to get home. No one had talked to her since. RD had reported her daughter missing around 5 9:53am on 9 9:24rd went on to say that they found her daughter when a family member found her Apple watch in her apartment and used the find my iPhone function. The application showed that her daughter's cell phone was north of the apartment in a wooded area. Once the family walked down towards the area, they located the victim. End quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, one thing I think officers would do pretty quickly in a situation like this would be in this day and age, there were security cameras everywhere. I imagine they would look to see if there were any security cameras that caught any relevant footage that would explain what happened to this woman.

[Anya Cain]

That's exactly right. And that's exactly what Officer Tony Barello started to do. They found a video with the apartment complex, but it didn't really show anything. In addition to that, I just want to say for, for RD and for Chantal's family, I mean, just what a horrible, horrible situation that they're looking for this young woman and they have to be the ones to find her like that. I just, my heart goes out to them. That's incredibly horrifying and traumatic. I also want to note that, you know, if the Sunset Strip is a strip club in Indianapolis, there's a couple of different strip clubs around town and that I looked it up that as one of them. So, you know, she seems to have been working as like an exotic dancer or something like that and was, you know, infuriating that a woman can just be going out, working and then should be able to come home safely. And unfortunately, that's not what happened. But from there they called a crime scene specialist, Blake Watson processed. They found the following kind of pieces of evidence. I'll sort of summarize. Blue Lake Tex gloves, an orange baby sandal, like kind of indication that the victim was dragged along a path. A black backpack, another orange sandal, a one piece women's romper in green. And the straps of the romper seemed ripped, so as if the garment had been ripped off her. They did not immediately find a wallet or a cell phone though. So then they called in canine officer Chris Wench. Sorry if I'm saying that name wrong. And so the canine and, and the, the partners kind of examined the scene and ended up finding two cell phones that had been sort of flung into the woods, as well as a tan sort of what was described as a wristlet wallet. And RD gave them the codes to open the phone, so they were able to get into that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What did they learn?

[Anya Cain]

Well, first there was actually more processing to do. So once I guess this kind of the way this goes is you do the preliminary field exam, then you bring in someone from the coroner's office. So they called Calista Hernater. I'm sorry if I'm saying that wrong. There's a lot of names in this one that I'm like, I'm kind of winging here. But. But what, what this coroner found was that initially they believed, and I don't think this has changed, that there seemed to be a single gunshot on the left side of the victim's temple. She was nude again, except for the black sweatshirt over her head and arms. And so that was sort of what they found. So next, what did they learn from the phone? Well, the phones, they, they went back to Krasanoy, went back to the homicide office, logged in and saw that, as her mother had described, Ms. Dixon had indeed ordered an Uber at 3:34am from 2320 W. 16th St. On Sept. 8, and then took that to an address on East Washington street at 3:57am and then left in the same Uber and went to an address on Earhart street, which is where she lived. So this all kind of confirms and I guess like if you saw that, would you be immediately suspicious of the Uber driver? Because to me, I wouldn't necessarily. I would just be like, okay, this confirms what RD said.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

I'd certainly want to talk to him.

[Anya Cain]

You'd want to talk to him, But I mean, Art, would you immediately be like super suspicious?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would be. I'd be a little. Suspicious is too strong of a word.

[Anya Cain]

That's how I feel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'd certainly be curious. I think you don't want to overestimate people's thinking capabilities, but you would assume that if you were going to commit a murder of someone who wasn't known to you, a stranger murder, you would not do it when you were their Uber driver and that information that you had them in your vehicle was accessible, Right?

[Anya Cain]

That was my initial thought as well. But we're gonna, we're gonna find out some things, I guess. So they, they looked more at the Uber order and the ride came up as completed at 4:05am and the the driver was a man named Francisco Valadez. And the Uber information had him driving a BMW that was registered to an Angela Valadez at an address on Aristocrats Circle in Indianapolis. Krasnoy asked some officers, hey, drive by the address. They, they contact him quickly after and saying, yeah, we see the BMW. So he goes there and asks to talk to Valadez about this ride. And Valadez readily agrees. So here's, here's the next part of the PCA quote. Detective Krasnoy and Mr. Valadez sat in Detective Krasnoy's department vehicle and began to take a recorded statement from him. Before having Mr. Valadez get in his department vehicle, Detective Krasnoy asked Mr. Valadez if he had a gun or knife on him and briefly patted him down. Mr. Valadez said he had a gun, but it was inside the house. Mr. Valadez said he did pick up Shanty and began to tell a story about how when he dropped her off, there seemed to be no issues. He said that he had dropped her off at the intersection of Prospect and Earhart. Mr. Valadez then made a comment that he had called the non emergency number and when asked why he did that, he said it was because when he dropped her off and was driving away, he heard a gunshot. This call was made around 5:30am After Mr. Valadez got back home. End quote. What are your initial reactions to this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, several things come in mind. First of all, there is people are always told that you shouldn't talk to police without an attorney present. And certainly if this man had had an attorney, this information would not come out he wouldn't have been sitting and talking to these people and giving what's clearly suspicious and incriminating information. And secondly, it occurs to me that in a lot of cases we have covered or read about, we see instances where the person who is involved in the crime tries to deflect suspicion by saying, oh yeah, sure, I was there, but it wasn't me. I saw something suspicious and I tried to call that in. So therefore you shouldn't suspect me to a degree. We saw this in the Richard Allen case.

[Anya Cain]

How so?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Richard Allen contacted authorities and said he was on the trails at the time Abby and Libby were killed.

[Anya Cain]

This is a very, I mean, I don't know if it's common, but it's certainly not unheard of that a possible perpetrator will try to control the situation. Like, I mean, and we, I think we, we, we, most of us can probably think of a time where, you know, maybe you wanted to explain yourself or get ahead of something and say, okay, I, you know, I know you're going to see this. So here, you know, and, and like it can be a lie or it can be telling the truth, but there's a, there's a, there's a need to control a situation so it ends up better for you. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And so he, he comes up with a story where he apparently called the police non emergency number around 5:30 to say he heard a shot like an hour and a half earlier. Yeah, that's odd because if, if I heard a shot and thought that a crime had been committed and that a person who had just been in my vehicle may be endangered, I would not wait until I leisurely drive home to call the authorities.

[Anya Cain]

Here's, here's what I want to say. Sometimes when there's weird behavior in a case, you might just be dealing with someone who's kind of weird or just is sort of not super thoughtful or whatever. So I never want to read too much into it. That being said, I'm at the point in like covering true crime cases where I'm willing to just say that's really weird. That doesn't make any sense. Someone without anything to hide. If you're concerned enough to call something in, why do it in such a lackadaisical, strange way? It's odd. Let's go back. This story is going to change so many times, Kevin, that we're going to just kind of go through a saga here. So I'm going to read the next part. Okay. Please do quote Mr. Valadez then added to the story saying that actually a black male came up to his car when he was dropping her off and tried to rob her and shot her in the thigh. He said that she then threw herself out of the car and he drove off. Detective Krasnoy asked if there was still blood in the car and he stated that he had already cleaned it up. End quote. First of all, yes sir. I bring this up because the Susan Smith parole hearing just went down where this is a woman kind of who became infamous for murdering her small children by locking them in a car and then drowning them back in 1994. This is a little three year old boy named Michael and a one year old named Alexander. So horrible, horrible crime out of South Carolina. And she infamously said that a black man had carjacked her and stolen her sons. So this is yet another instance of unnamed black men being, you know, you know, IDed as the, the possible suspect by, by somebody who may have something to hide, which is always troubling and disturbing to see in my mind. I just wanted to note that. And for you, what do you make of this new iteration of the story? So we went from I didn't see anything to I heard a gunshot to this happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, earlier I heard a gunshot. So about an hour later I decided to call the police. Now he actually witnesses a shooting, drives off, and then again waits about an hour, hour and a half before he calls anyone for help. And that's hard for me to believe because I imagine, ask yourself what you would do in that situation or what you would expect a rational person to do in that situation. I think they would contact authorities immediately. And I'm also not. He says that he cleaned the blood up and this is just a day or two after the crime, right?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If something like that happened to me, I would not say, okay, now I'm going to clean the car. I'd call the police, let them examine it, get what they need.

[Anya Cain]

In what world would, would, I guess like, would an Uber driver who's, I mean, in this case, if someone's, you know, you know, grabbing someone out of your Uber, shooting someone in your Uber, maybe even if you're not a direct victim, you are, I mean, you're, you're part of this. Why wouldn't you just call that in? You know, I, it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense at all. So it's one of those things where, yeah, this immediately becomes, and also just again, the kind of the cliche of blaming a black man for this. It's just, it's distasteful and frankly racist. But it also doesn't make any sense because, you know, I've used Ubers, I've used Lyfts. Most of the drivers I've had have been very nice, responsible people. I don't see any instance where I could imagine myself being shot in their car, falling out and then them just driving off and being like, well, back to work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, back to my next call.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Like, no. And then, and then cleaning it out. I mean, there's going into shock and then there's, there's whatever that is. So it's obviously not adding up. So let's go to the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I imagine at this point the detective doing the interview was thinking, okay, this, this interview is going to be a lot more important than I thought.

[Anya Cain]

Well, like in the beginning, like his first story made some sense of like, I dropped her off. And then you could imagine maybe he did it or maybe this is scenario where someone grabbed her or something happened later on. But, but, you know, but now, I mean, he's, he's given them enough.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what happened next?

[Anya Cain]

Quote, Detective Krasnoy stopped the interview and transported Mr. Valadez to the homicide office for a full interview. After Detective Krasnoy left with Mr. Valadez, his mother approached the uniformed officers outside and said that she was aware of the person that had been shot in her son's car and that some of what he cleaned out of the car was still in the house. Detective Krasnoy obtained a warrant for the house on Aristocrat and, and Detective Ronald Clayton worked with Crime Lab in processing the items found at the house. Detective Krasnoy took Mr. Valadez to the homicide office for an interview where Detective Krasnoy and Lt. Eli McAllister attempted to interview him. Prior to starting the interview, Detective Krasnoy read a written waiver of rights to Mr. Valadez, which, to which Mr. Valadez signed and agreed to speak with detectives, end quote. So what are the. I want to talk about the waiver here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, the main thing is that a person in that situation when he's clearly suspected of being involved in a crime, that person has the right to have an attorney present when he's speaking with police. And any attorney who would be present would say, don't speak with police. So he. When you waive your rights, you're basically going into battle on an unfamiliar field alone instead of having someone there to help you.

[Anya Cain]

Why do people do that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think some people do it because they're actually innocent and they don't want to impede the investigation. If someone hap. If something happened to someone you knew and loved and cared about, you would not want to impede the investigation. You want to give them what they need to know. Other people who are actually guilty and who are involved in a crime, maybe they think they can outwit the police. Maybe they think, well, if I ask for a lawyer, I'm going to look guilty and I can just handle it myself and talk my way out of it. Who knows? It's not a smart decision.

[Anya Cain]

No, it really isn't. It's one thing if you're just like a minor witness and police are canvassing and oh yeah, I heard a scream that night, like, I don't think you need a lawyer for that. But when people are calling you into the homicide office because you know your story's getting more and more outlandish, that's probably a pretty bad sign for you. So I'll read the next part. Please do quote Mr. Valadez told two different stories as to what happened with Ms. Dixon. Mr. Valadez first claimed that when he got to the intersection of Prospect and Earhart, a black male approached the car and tried to rob the victim. He said that suspect came up to the passenger side rear window and stuck a black gun into the car, pointing it at the victim, telling her to give him all her stuff. The victim, Ms. Dixon, told the suspect no, that she works hard for her stuff and she was not giving him anything. According to Mr. Valadez, the suspect then shot Ms. Dixon in the leg. He said that Ms. Dixon then threw herself out of the passenger side of the car and he drove off. He went into detail about how he looked in the mirror and saw blood coming from her leg and she was getting out. When pressed on certain details, like the fact that Ms. Dixon was not shot in the leg, he changed his story and said that the unknown suspect shot her in the head and killed her. He then said that he took off with Ms. Dixon in the back seat and panicked. He drove to the dead end of Wagner Lane and once there he drug her out of his car and placed her where she was later found and he threw her stuff into the wooded area. When asked about cleaning the car afterwards, Mr. Valadez claimed that after he called the non emergency line and no officers ended up coming to his house, he decided to clean the blood out of his car. He said that everything he cleaned out was placed in the trash at his house and that the trash man had already picked up the trash. Detective Krasnoy had been informed by Detective Clayton that while executing the search warrant at the house on Aristocrat that they had found bloody towels and clothes in a bedroom belonging to Mr. Valadez. Detective Krasnoy informed Mr. Valadez that detectives had recovered the items from his room, and he said that those items were from the second cleanup he did of his car. He claimed that the items from the first cleanup were picked up by the trash man. End quote. Okay, so now it went from she was injured and threw herself out to he's the one disposing the body.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he's, instead of talking himself out of trouble, he is getting himself deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble.

[Anya Cain]

Let's jump into the next part and then I'm going to probably summarize maybe the last part because it's kind of graphic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Quote, Detective Croy informed Mr. Valadez that detectives had also recovered a firearm from his house, which he confirmed was a Walter PPX 9mm. Lieutenant Mallister asked Mr. Valadez if there was any explainable way that once the bullet was recovered from Ms. Dixon during the autopsy, if it would match his firearm. Mr. Valadez hesitated for a second and said, and then said, okay, I shot her in the head. It was self defense. Mr. Valladez then told a story about how he was driving Ms. Dixon and she was obviously angry about something and at some point started slapping him in the head repeatedly. He said that he grabbed his gun, it was in the driver's door, and fired over his shoulder, striking her in the head. He said he the pan. He panicked. And that is when he took her to the dead end and dumped her body. He made it a point to say that she had her clothes on and whatever happened after he dumped her, he knew nothing about, end quote. So now we're into self defense territory because a woman randomly decides to attack this Uber driver and he responds by shooting her in the head.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So a woman who is apparently unarmed and in the backseat of a vehicle decides to start hitting somebody on the head and his response is to kill her.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I listen. I think ride share drivers have a tough job. I'm sure everyone's had a nightmare passenger lash out. I don't think that's at all what happened here. I think he's lying. But let's just take it seriously for a second. You know, wouldn't the thing to be to do would be like to pull over, pull over, exit the car with your keys and call the police, if you're being assaulted, not like randomly start shooting in your own car. Doesn't make any sense. Okay, that then, then I, I'll kind of summarize this last portion of the PCA because it is, it is graphic and disturbing. This is where Valadez told yet another version of his story. And what he said was that he was, he was 29, according to court documents, but he talked about being a 30 year old virgin who asked Ms. Dixon to take his virginity and he offered her money to do so after she laughed at him. He said they parked at the dead end and they, he went to have sex with her in the back seat and that she took her clothing off and he, he said he could not get inside her and had trouble performing sexually and that she laughed at him and made fun of his small penis. And then he got angry and shot her in the head. And he also claimed that she smacked him in the head and he said he, he did ejaculate and then he also shot her. You know, after shooting her, he threw her out of the car and drug her down to where she was found. And then he also talked about sexually assaulting her corpse after she was dead and then throwing her cell phones and wallet into the woods. And we also got some information in this PCA from the September 10th autopsy which was attended by Detective Steve Gray and forensic pathologist Dr. Chris Polos. And they, they noted again the single gunshot wound and they took swabs from her, different parts of her body. So yeah, I guess. What do you, what do you think about a case like this where it, you know, we, we talk a lot about confessions because we covered the Deli murders case and that was like a kind of a different situation. This is like changing stories that's kind of almost. It's like a spiral. We're getting closer and closer seemingly to like, to the truth. To what? Actually, I'm not going to say the truth because this man's innocent until proven guilty. But I'm going to say to what matches the evidence at the scene. What do you make of that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you mean?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know. Like it, it's just this guy. This. Yeah, this, this guy's like a nightmare client for an attorney, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And at this point when he's giving all these confessions, again, he doesn't even have a. An attorney. So he's not a nightmare client. Yet.

[Anya Cain]

He's not a nightmare client, but he's assumed. I mean he. So now he's represented by Christopher M. Esq And Benjamin Jaffe from SQ Law. The prosecution was initially handled by Yassine Hariri from the Marion County Prosecutor's office, and now it's been taken on by Nathan Leffler. Abigail Joe Chikala is the second chair deputy for him. And then, you know, Ryan Mears is listed, but he's, he's the prosecutor from Marion County. So that's why. And like, I, I mean, more that like, you know, when you're like, I imagine a defense attorney looks at something like this and looks back and is like, if you had just shut up, we'd probably be in a pretty bad position because all the DNA in this case. But maybe it would have been a better situation had we not gotten these bizarre cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It would have been, it would have been a better situation. Certainly wouldn't have been a worse one.

[Anya Cain]

That's true. So that is what's going on currently. The trial, which was originally scheduled for November 18, 2024, is now going to be February 10, 2025. And there has been some public access where the judge. Cindy, I'm going to say this wrong. I'm sorry. Cindy Wheaton is allowing Rich Nye of WTHR to, you know, possibly record audio and video of as much of the trial as possible. She's kind of saying that, you know, media must pool resources for only one video camera, one still photographer. They can't capture the jurors or witnesses or juveniles. So there's some limitations, but she's allowing some of that in this case. And also there's a protective order regarding discovery. So I'll be curious to see what goes on in that case. Thanks again to the tipster who recommended we look at it. But I mean, geez, what a mess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, for our second case, why don't we go to your old neck of the woods in the Bronx?

[Anya Cain]

And it's really my, my mom's old neck of the woods. In fairness, I don't feel like I can claim that street cred.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And my source for this was the Westchester Journal News.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, hey, there you go. Well, I'm, I'm from Westchester, so yeah. And that's right next to the Bronx, so it's exciting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So your old stomping grounds?

[Anya Cain]

In some ways, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this case is interesting to me because one thing that courts always have to struggle with is how do we define certain things? Like, I, I believe every one of us would, would, would agree that if a person is in danger, they have the right to use self defense to protect themselves, even up to the point of using Lethal force. But then the question is, it's very easy to come up with situations where, yes, absolutely, lethal force, force was a necessary occurrence here. So that's fine. And it's also easy to say, no, lethal force was not necessary here. The person overreacted and needs to be punished. I believe there's a case where, where, for instance, a person accidentally pulls into the wrong person's driveway and the person who's at home shoots them and kills them. It's as though I was in self defense. And no, that was clearly an overreaction.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it was the Kalyn Gillis case, I believe, in upstate New York.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what do we do with the many, many cases in the middle that aren't so clearly defined? Where do we draw the line of what should be considered self defense and what shouldn't be? And keep in mind, this case that we're going to talk about is one where even the judges of New York State had disagreements about whether or not this was a self defense case. And it involves a man named Hiro Castillo who was, he said he was acting in self defense. He had a confrontation back in 2016 with a man named Julio Lebron and At one point, Mr. LeBron actually held a razor blade against Castillo's or Castillo's face and threatened to cut him from ear to ear. After that, though, he turns and he walks away and he is shot. And many of the shots that hit him were fired when he was walking away because he was hit in the back. So the question is, if you fire at a person who is walking away from you, should that be considered self defense? I think we could all agree if for some reason he was shot and given a fatal wound when he was in the process of pressing this razor blade against Castillo's neck or face, that's obviously self defense. But is it still self defense when he is no longer doing that and is walking away? What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, I'm not a studied legal, you know, sage here, but yeah, it does seem marginal. It seems like it's kind of something that could go either way. I mean, in the case of, of, of Gillis, where this young woman is in a car that they make a wrong turn, they go up somebody's driveway by accident, they're not hurting anybody. They're not, they're not going to hurt anybody. It's ridiculous that somebody was so paranoid that they like freaked out and shot at their car because it's like, you know, you're so scared of other people and you're, you Know, moving through life in such a terrified fashion that, you know, that that's your initial reaction. I mean, that's ridiculous. But in this case, a guy had just held a razor blade to his face and said he was gonna slit his throat. That's a different situation to me. That's like an ongoing. That's like a. Kind of like an assault or something. I don't. I don't know if it's technically assault, but, like, that is, like, that's a pretty grave situation, in my opinion. I kind of feel like in a case that's marginal in self defense, you have to give it to the defendant in the interest of fairness. So I guess I would come down on this is self defense because for what was in Castillo's mind, this guy who just did this thing to him could have easily turned back around and, you know, killed him or slashed him with the razor. So, I mean, again, I think it's marginal. I certainly understand why the prosecutor's office would have charged him, but I can also understand why people would feel like this is more in the realm of self defense, but it's marginal. And I could see where people would disagree. I just think, like, if it's. If it's something where you're like, I don't know, either way, it's kind of in the middle, then the thing to do is to say it's not. It's to say it's. It's okay, I think. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't. This case bothers me because the guy was walking away, and the appellate court did say, well, he could still have posed a threat. I guess he could turn back around. Who knows? But at the moment, someone is walking away, it's difficult for me to understand how he's posing a threat to you.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, it would be preferable to have a gun on the guy as he's walking away, and if he turns back around to come at you again, then shoot him. But I can also imagine someone being so jarred by that experience that they're maybe not making the best decisions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Frankly, I guess I would want. Before I would make a decision, I'd want more information. I would want to know the history between the two. I'd want to know what was in the mind of the person who fired the shot, why he waited until he was walking away. I want more context in order to.

[Anya Cain]

This is like a drug deal gone wrong or a drug dispute, something like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think so.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I. I think it's interesting. It as you mentioned a lot of judges have disagreed about this one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, the trial court said, no, this is obviously not self defense. And the court of appeals said, no, it is obviously self defense. So it's a situation where even the experts who know the law better than any of us because they're actually experts in New York law, even they disagree.

[Anya Cain]

And you don't want to get into a situation when you're basically like emboldening everybody. Like this guy vaguely threatens you blow his head off. You don't want to, like, you don't want to get in a situation where we're a nation of vigilantes, where you're basically telling people act upon your most ludicrous fears and create all kinds of chaotic and horrible situations. But at the same time, you don't want to handcuff somebody from defending themselves in a potentially lethal situation by being like, well, if you shoot this guy and it's not in the exact perfect way, you're going to ruin your life even though you were defending yourself or others. So it's, it's, it's, it's a tricky issue. I don't think it's one. There are so many manner of kind of wild situations that can come up. I don't think it's anything that could ever be fully resolved. It just has to be looked at, as you said, based on whatever the facts of the particular situation are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's move on. There is a sad and mysterious case involving a woman from Maui. I'm talking about Hannah Kobayashi. I read a lot about this case online. I, I think the primary source I'm using for this particular discussion was a story I saw on abc7.com Hannah is a woman again from Maui. Back on November 8th of this year, just a couple of weeks back, she took a flight from Maui to Los Angeles and she was scheduled to then hop on another flight and go to New York. And as it happens, she was taking this flight with her ex boyfriend. I guess they weren't exes at the time they booked the flight. He, he's cooperated with authorities. She never got on her flight to New York. The ex boyfriend did. There have been a couple of spottings or sightings of Hannah in the area of Los Angeles. She was seen at a bookstore. She was seen at a Nike store. No one has seen or heard from her since November 11. She sent some disturbing texts to family members in which she says, deep hackers wiped my identity, stole all of my funds, and have had me on a mind f since Friday. For instance, another one Says I got tricked pretty much into giving away all of my funds for someone I thought I loved. Loved. So it's, it's mysterious, it is disturbing and it's ominous. And her family wants to know where she is and if she's okay.

[Anya Cain]

This is really awful. I. My heart goes. Having a situation where a loved one disappears in, like, an area where they're not from so far away is horrifying. This kind of, in some ways reminds me of the 2006 disappearance of Jesse Foster. We talked to her mother, Glendine Grant, on the show, and she was a young woman from Canada who vanished in Las Vegas, Nevada, and she's never been found. And it's not, you know, it's. It seemed like Jesse was a victim of sex trafficking in that situation. But there can be all kinds of reasons for someone disappearing far away from home. And either way, it just adds to the horror, in my opinion, because the family has to kind of wait and, and, and they're not familiar with the local authorities and things like that. It's just horrible. That text, that's really upsetting. I wonder. It feels like a couple of horrible possibilities come to mind for me. I mean, this is all speculation, obviously, but I wonder, could that be Hannah having some sort of mental health crisis or could that be somebody has her phone and it's not her who's actually texting? Either one is really concerning. Yeah. If anyone in crisis, they're especially vulnerable, or the, the even more disturbing, if, if that's not from her, then who has her phone? Who's sending that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there are sightings of her in the day or two after she misses the flight to New York, which indicate there's nothing there to indicate that she's already been harmed or is there under duress?

[Anya Cain]

I'd want to know more. And I, I'm, I would never accuse anybody or say anything like that. Just what does the ex boyfriend have to say? Why exactly did they become separated? Obviously, if you're in a couple and you go. Or, or maybe not even a couple, if you're, if you're, you know, going somewhere with somebody and you come back and they don't. Getting information from that person about what happened, what made her skip out on these. Obviously, if she was seen after the flight left, then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And my understanding is he's cooperating.

[Anya Cain]

Good. Okay, good. I mean, again, just because someone's with somebody doesn't mean it's their fault or they have a lot of information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She is seen long after he's already in New York.

[Anya Cain]

But he could provide context for maybe the state of mind she was in. And what, you know, did she, did she meet someone? Did she want to extend the trip because she was having a good time? Did, did she, was something off, like what, what happened to make her want to, you know, go, go stay in the, you know, I don't know, but yeah, I don't. It seems like this might be. I hope this is a situation where the public can kind of get together to help find Hannah and, and kind of get her help and get her back to her family. That's, that would obviously be the, the best outcome to this. I mean, what do you think, what do you think needs to happen for some answers to come out of this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I'm really glad that her family is having such success getting attention to this. They're holding events to try to draw attention to the situation involving their daughter. And that's often the absolute best thing a family could do in a situation like this. Because public pressure, not only is that a further prod to police and law enforcement, but it also is potentially a source of information for police and law enforcement. Because if a missing person's face is plastered all over, then the odds are somebody might see it who might have information.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, absolutely. I have a phone number for Los Angeles police. If anyone has any information, please share it. So that's call 1-877-527-3247 and if you have any information on Hannah's whereabouts, call that number to get to the Los Angeles police. And on, you know, just kind of. We. They don't need to hear theories. I know our audience knows this but like if you send it to anyone else, they don't need to hear like possibilities. They just people who have seen her that I think needs to be stressed and hopefully she can be found and be put in a safer situation. Because I just, my heart goes out to her family to be so far away and I mean the feeling of helplessness must be awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Want to do just one more case? And this is one. In order to talk about what happened this week, I have to go back a ways. And my sources for this are the Pensacola News Journal, WKRG MyNBC 15 and Wear News. And this is a case involving Keith and Sheila Agee and 18 year old Brooklyn Sims. So Keith AG is a 20 year old man involved in some sort of relationship with Brooklyn Sims who is 18. Again, she is the mother of his daughter and she is working at a Home Depot. And Keith's mother Sheila is also working at that Home Depot. And so last August, I believe Keith gets some bad information. He gets the impression that he has contracted a venereal disease, and he believes that the person who gave it to him was Brooklyn. And to his mind, that means that she has cheated on him. And he is very upset about that. And he exchanges some text messages with his mother. And his mother basically encourages him to do something drastic about this turn of events, namely to do harm to Brooklyn. And she goes so far. The mother goes so far is to give Keith the address of the Home Depot says, when you come here, be sure you don't shoot me. Just shoot her. And you've read these texts. What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

I guess this is going to sound harsh maybe to some people, but all I could think is, how stupid are these people? How stupid are Keith and Sheila Agee? But I guess, you know, also, like, what kind of. I mean, I don't know, like you think of a parent, a mother, any kind of parent, as somebody who's going to be, you know, hopefully providing guidance and counsel to a young person, like a 20 year old.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, she is, because she's telling him where to go to commit murder.

[Anya Cain]

These, these, these. I mean, all I could think of is these people are awful. I'm sorry. Like, that's, that sounds kind of harsh, but, like, they're, they're having this, like, stupid, like, stupid entitled conversation about, like, we're gonna kill this young woman. And, and the, and the mom, Sheila, is just like, just don't shoot my MF car. Don't shoot me. It's like, what is wrong with you? Jesus. I'm sorry. Like, I was disgusted. It just. It's just like this poor young woman. I mean, I don't know what happened between her and Keith Agee. I don't really care. She's the mother of his children.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Child.

[Anya Cain]

Child. She's the mother of his child. And, and he's basically just talking about throwing her away and throwing her life away in a fit of anger where frankly, the facts don't even seem particularly clear to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And his mother is supporting him in that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You would think a mom in that situation would be like, no, don't ruin your life. Let's get all the facts and maybe, like, we can figure this out. Like, don't, don't do something that's going to take you away from your child forever because you will inevitably get caught because you are texting about it with me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So again, it's not a situation where the mother even just knows about what's going to happen. She's helping it happen. It's almost like she's helping planet because she's giving him information about where to find this, this, this 18 year old.

[Anya Cain]

@ one point she says, don't call nanny and tell her. She will try to talk you out of it. It's like, maybe that's what you should have been doing, Sheila. Like, what the heck?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sheila also says at one point, hold up, let me erase the text because I don't want nobody to know I was texting you.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant deduction there. It, you know, it's, it's, it's like at one point she says, okay, whatever. I, I don't care what you do. Idgaf because I'm going home today. Not to hell or to jail. I mean, I don't like to. Does it. Apparently this is not, that's not even a possibility for her in her mind. Like, it just, I don't, I find it really, really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, so that's, that's the background. Keith ag, he already was tried and convicted a few months ago. So now Sheila has also been charged with first degree murder. And again, it's because of these texts which indicate that she was helping, helping her son plan this crime, helping give, giving him information to make the crime possible. So if these texts are accurate and to be believed, she was an active participant in this crime. And so she is charged with first degree murder, which is obviously an incredibly serious offense. And she went on trial just this last week. And there were some jury problems.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, were they?

[Kevin Greenlee]

In, in fact, the judge, Judge Coleman Robinson, announced a mistrial and there were some jury problems. Some jurors reported that they were worried for their physical safety. Of the loud disagreements in the jury room. Someone said that she felt her physical safety was in danger. Another person, one of the jurors expressed to the judge that she doesn't feel, I'm quoting, she doesn't feel physically safe due to racial issues. Another juror mentioned health concerns, said this arguing is raising my blood pressure and could affect his pacemaker. And obviously if you have a situation where jurors are intimidated or scared, then you have to be concerned that they are not in a position to really fairly and accurately go through and weigh all of the evidence. And in addition to all of that, there was another juror. Why say another juror? I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

We don't know who's who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We don't know who's who. It may be the same juror because there, there are Some indications that in some of the press reports, it's not clear, but there are some indications that one juror was at the center of a lot of this. And this is a juror who was apparently doing crossword puzzles while the trial was going on and was also doing crossword puzzles while the jury was deliberating.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This juror has also made comments like it was. The other 11 jurors were against her, which indicate that maybe some of these arguments, she was on one side of them and everybody else was on the other side.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, maybe because you weren't taking the process seriously at all. If you're doing freaking crossword puzzles during, like. Yeah, I would be against that, too. You know, our whole System relies on 12 everyday people taking this seriously. At the very least, you don't have to be an expert. You have to just use your common sense. But it requires you to pay attention. And to have someone disrespect the process that flagrantly. That. That makes me. That makes my blood boil.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Judge Robertson addressed the jury said, there is a particular juror who has not treated this case. It's evident with the seriousness it should have. And it continued back into the deliberation room. The judge added, I cannot ever recall a juror doing a crosswood word puzzle during a trial.

[Anya Cain]

Why could the judge not just boot this fool?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, apparently at some point, some jurors suggested, why don't we just replace this one juror? And that seems to be prohibited under Florida law.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. So basically, one person being a jerk cost, I'm sure, the county a lot of money and wasted everybody's time because this person couldn't be bothered to put the crossword puzzle down and pay attention. It's disrespectful, and it, frankly, makes me sick.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The crossword puzzle juror was a woman named Sally Sue Smith. She says, I didn't know it was a bad thing. I do that when I'm. I concentrate and I'm listening. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do it.

[Anya Cain]

Basically, like, figure it out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She said. We retired to the jury room and started to deliberate. It became obvious to me right away that I was in the minority of one versus 11 other people. A lot of shouting. I can shout, too. I do have a loud voice.

[Anya Cain]

Well, it sounds like someone who's just really obstinate and, you know, wants conflict. Because I tend to think that, you know, there's a. There's. There's a. There's a 12 angry men situation. Where you're the one principled person who convinces everybody logically. But then sometimes if you're the one who's like, I don't know, not paying attention at all, maybe you should consider. Maybe I'm in the wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

You know, maybe that should at least cross your mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The judge said this same juror now in deliberation, had another crossword puzzle. The same juror now took comments from another juror, is a physical threat for her safety. So, again, this one particular juror seems to be at the center of this. And the end result is that a mistrial is declared in order to protect the rights of miss Agee. And now everybody has to go through and have another trial because this juror didn't take her responsibilities seriously.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Because this irresponsible and unaccountable person didn't take her responsibility seriously. Now, I imagine the family of this young woman is going to have to go through all of this again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And people who loved her are going to have to go through all of this again. And frankly, I was critical of the defendant earlier because I think her texts make her out to be really bad. But, I mean, this means that she's going to have to go through all of it again. And her attorney. I mean, it's unfair to everyone. And the entitlement of this is just like. I mean, like, there's just certain people who just do not seem to ever acknowledge that they might be in the wrong in a situation. And, And. And. And to. To be like whipping out crossword puzzle after crossword, you know? No, you're not focusing if you're on a crossword puzzle. And if you've got some kind of. I'm sympathetic to people who are neurodivergent, or if you have some kind of trouble concentrating because of whatever reason, that's something that should come out in VO deer, because that could affect your ability to be a responsible juror in this situation. People need to know about it. You know, this. I'm, like, watching her interview now. Just the smugness of this. On Wear Channel 3 news. Just like, I don't know what I did. Everyone was mad at me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

God, you speak with such passion.

[Anya Cain]

I'm mad about it. Everyone. Everyone got. The whole process got basically messed up by just one person just not doing the right thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. It's an outrageous situation, and I think that wraps up our final case. But I wonder, is there anything else you want to speak passionately about?

[Anya Cain]

There might be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're welcome, by the way, for that transition.

[Anya Cain]

Thank You.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which I think was very artful.

[Anya Cain]

I thought it was really good, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

I'm snapping my fingers. So in celebration, like an applause, you know you're losing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get it back. Get back your mojo.

[Anya Cain]

So we have T shirts for all of our listeners, if you would so choose to purchase one. We have these beautiful T shirts. They have our logo emblazoned on them in beautiful succulent color.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Succulent.

[Anya Cain]

That's probably the wrong word. I'm sorry. In beautiful. In gorgeous color.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People have been looking forward to the return of these ads.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is what you're giving.

[Anya Cain]

Why, you know what? Why are you being so negative? Why are you gonna shoot me down so early? Let me get into the groove.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What.

[Anya Cain]

I have to deal with every day of my life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I set you up wonderfully.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wow.

[Anya Cain]

It's all about you, then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

I'm stepping back, entitled as that juror. So we. What were we talking about? Okay, so the ads. So the shirts, rather these beautiful shirts, Murder sheet shirts. They have our logo on them in beautiful color. They have murder sheet people on them. If you know there's a lot of murder sheet lore. I understand, but if, you know that's a reference to. We were dubbed the murder sheet people in a hearing once. And so you can be a murder sheet person, too, if you buy a shirt and you know, they're, They're. They're priced affordably beautiful garments for you and your family, a number of different sizes. And they're all available for purchase on murdersheetshop.com. you just go there, you purchase them and you put in all your information and we will send them to you and you will have them to enjoy as a shirt, as whatever you want, honestly. You can do whatever you want with them and then you can, you can wear them proudly and that's. That's how it goes. I don't. And if you join our patreon at the $5 level or up, you get a free shipping. We'll send you a code and you can plug that in, and then you don't have to pay for shipping. So some, Some deal. Some. Some synergy there. And I think the people who've gotten the shirts have. I mean, we haven't like strenuously polled everyone, but I don't think it's speaking out of turn to say the people we have heard from them don't hate them. And in fact, they love them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they've made a novel. A number of extravagant claims about those church, which have not been evaluated by the fda? No, but still seem pretty persuasive. People buy these shirts and get new jobs. People buy these shirts, and if they have a cold, they recover from the cold. People buy these shirts and they meet the love of their lives.

[Anya Cain]

Wait, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That could happen.

[Anya Cain]

Could happen. Could happen tomorrow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, because the world is full of possibilities if you trod the street in a murder sheet people T shirt.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. It's kind of beautiful. And you can be part of the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Merch, much like the shirt itself.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, the shirt is very beautiful. It really is a very nice shirt. And I think people found it was, like, true to size, so they appreciated that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And my flowery words are not nearly as beautiful as these lovely garments.

[Anya Cain]

God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you say you can use them for anything. I wouldn't be surprised if people were buying these shirts and, like, framing them and hanging them in honored places in.

[Anya Cain]

Their home to the consternation of their entire family. Honey, what is this? People have to do a murder sheet intervention. Oh, my gosh. But, yeah, no, and we. And they. They support us. They help us. They help us out a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the shirts.

[Anya Cain]

The. The.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The shirts support you buying the shirt.

[Anya Cain]

The act of buying the shirt. Okay, so you're, like, trying to hijack my ad and make me sound insane.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You said the shirts support me.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, the shirts support me more than you do. The shirts don't interrupt me and say weird things to throw me off my game. At least not yet. The shirts are going to kind of muscle their way in here one day and just start doing the ads themselves. Like. No, no, no. This. This is terrible. We're taking over.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We can make many claims about the shirts. They're not sentient.

[Anya Cain]

Not yet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And don't tell people that the shirts are going to come alive and terrorize them because we want them to buy the shirts.

[Anya Cain]

Wouldn't that be kind of fun? You know, you could experience magic shirts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. If you want to have a shirt that comes alive and will scare you, boy, we got good news for you. You need to work more on this.

[Anya Cain]

You led me astray. You led me astray. That's. It's just to make your own ad next week look better. And I'm sure it'll be something totally unhinged, and you'll act like I said it with confidence, so it's good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's not what I say. That's what the people say.

[Anya Cain]

That's what the people say. Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we're done.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think we are. But murdersheetshop.com. that's the thing you remember when I didn't even put the URL in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That happened more than once. You tell people, buy these shirts. Good night everybody. Didn't even tell them.

[Anya Cain]

It's a mystery you just solve. It's a scavenger hunt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You stumble across the URL randomly by chance, and sales plummeted after that and still have not recovered.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my gosh. Are we done? I said we were done a minute ago. You didn't hit the stop record button.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't you have to push a button?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I. I'm sorry, I did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's your responsibility to end the show. All right, push the button.

[Anya Cain]

Goodbye everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com/murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's, it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. Show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated quotes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To me all the time.

[Anya Cain]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and, and you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's compassionate, it's affirming. But I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And he's got a great community that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're fans of the show. We love it. And we would strongly encourage you all, just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wherever you listen to podcasts, Very easy to find.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.