The Cheat Sheet: Plazas and Pizzas

Summary

The Murder Sheet: "The Cheat Sheet: Plazas and Pizzas" Release Date: March 21, 2025

Hosts:

• Áine Cain, Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee, Attorney

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into five chilling true crime cases spread across New Jersey, New York, Maryland, California, and New Mexico. Utilizing investigative genetic genealogy (IGG) and other forensic advancements, the podcast uncovers the dark narratives behind these unresolved and historically significant murders. The hosts provide insightful legal analysis, emotional narratives, and thought-provoking discussions on the implications of these crimes within the broader criminal justice system.

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1. The Murder of Nancy Noga (New Jersey)

Timestamp: [05:38 – 07:21]

Case Summary: In January 1999, 17-year-old Nancy Noga disappeared from her apartment in New Jersey. Five days later, her frozen body was discovered behind the Mini Mall Plaza shopping center, approximately a 15-minute walk from her residence. Nancy had been brutally raped and died from blunt force trauma.

Breakthrough: In 2021, advancements in IGG led to the arrest of Bruce Symansky, aged 52, who was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment with 30 years of parole ineligibility.

Notable Quote: Áine Cain reflects on the case's complexity:
“The discovery has other suspects in it. Wow.” [07:00]

Discussion Points:

• Forensic Genetic Genealogy: The role of IGG in solving cold cases.
• Family’s Struggle: Nancy’s family endured the pain of this unsolved case for over two decades.
• Legal Implications: The controversy surrounding Symansky’s guilt, especially considering conflicting DNA evidence from other suspects.

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2. The Murder of Catherine Donahue (Maryland)

Timestamp: [10:29 – 12:08]

Case Summary: Catherine Donahue, a 31-year-old woman from Arlington, Maryland, was murdered in 1979. She was beaten, raped, and left in a parking lot in Prince George's County.

Breakthrough: Decades later, preserved DNA evidence was re-examined using modern technology with assistance from the FBI’s IGG team and Othram. This led to the identification and arrest of Roger Zotis Brown, an 82-year-old man residing in North Carolina.

Notable Quote: Kevin Greenlee muses on the nature of offenders:
“I think people have a hard time with the idea that someone can do something like this and go live their lives.” [12:00]

Discussion Points:

• Advancements in DNA Technology: How preserved evidence can transform cold cases.
• Behavioral Analysis: Understanding how individuals capable of such heinous crimes can continue mundane lives.
• Systemic Challenges: The difficulties in tracking and prosecuting elderly suspects for past crimes.

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3. The Murder of Scott Dwight Habermel (New Mexico)

Timestamp: [14:52 – 26:29]

Case Summary: Scott Dwight Habermel, a 63-year-old scientist and cyclist, was murdered on May 29, 2024, at Sandia National Laboratory. A group of teenagers deliberately crashed a stolen car into him, filming the act and posting it on social media.

Suspects:

• William Garcia, 15
• Jonathan Overbay, 13
• Unnamed 11-year-old

Discussion Points:

• Juvenile Delinquency: Exploring the motivations and psychological factors behind such extreme behavior in minors.
• Parental Responsibility: Debating the role of parenting in preventing teenage involvement in violent crimes.
• Community Impact: The significant decrease in crime rates following the arrest of the teenagers.
• Risk Factors for Delinquency: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee reference the 2003 US Department of Justice report outlining individual, family, school, peer group, and community factors influencing juvenile delinquency.

Notable Quotes: Kevins Greenlee highlights societal perceptions:
“There could have been some explanation...This woman was abducted, raped and murdered.” [09:05]

Áine Cain emphasizes the complexity of punishment:
“Maybe we should have an entire show about this at some point.” [32:00]

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4. The Case of Mikayla Reilersdom (California)

Timestamp: [26:32 – 37:37]

Case Summary: Mikayla Reilersdom, a 31-year-old woman, was involved in a tragic incident resulting in the death of Michael Dale, 56. Dale sought her services for extreme fetish activities, including being wrapped in Saran Wrap and having adhesive put on his eyes. The encounter culminated in Dale suffocating and dying from the imposed restraints.

Legal Proceedings: Mikayla has been charged with second-degree murder due to the recklessness of her actions, despite lacking the intention to kill.

Discussion Points:

• Consent and Safety in Fetish Practices: The fine line between consensual activities and criminal negligence.
• Legal Definitions: Clarifying second-degree murder where specific intent is absent but recklessness is present.
• Ethical Implications: Debating appropriate punishment for accidental deaths resulting from consensual but unsafe practices.

Notable Quotes: Áine Cain on the intent behind actions:
“It feels a little harsh to be a murder charge, frankly.” [30:22]

Kevin Greenlee discusses societal roles in punishment:
“Why do we believe we as a society are punishing criminals?” [33:32]

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5. The Assassination Attempt on Masi Alinajad (New York)

Timestamp: [38:33 – 44:56]

Case Summary: Masi Alinajad, an Iranian women's rights advocate in Brooklyn, was the target of an assassination plot orchestrated by Khalid Medivev. Medivev, aiming to infiltrate her life, employed unorthodox methods such as sending peculiar texts, staking out her residence, and even ordering pizza to maintain his cover. Despite his efforts, Alinajad survived the initial attempts due to the evidence captured by her Ring camera.

Breakthrough: Medivev was arrested with incriminating evidence, including a loaded gun and a ski mask intended for disguise. During incarceration, Medivev cooperated with authorities, leading to the identification of his employers, Rafat Amirav and Polad Amurov, who claimed the plot was a hoax to extort money from Iran.

Discussion Points:

• International Threats: The dangers faced by activists advocating for women's rights in oppressive regimes.
• Incompetence in Criminal Operations: Medivev’s numerous mistakes highlight the challenges in executing covert operations.
• Legal Ramifications: The prosecution’s stance on treating the assassination attempts seriously despite claims of it being a scam.

Notable Quotes: Áine Cain expresses disbelief:
“Baffling.” [43:14]

Kevin Greenlee comments on media portrayals:
“We make them often out to be really cool and competent in most TV shows.” [44:16]

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Final Thoughts and Reflections

Timestamp: [44:29 – 54:21]

The hosts reflect on the nature of criminal intent, the complexities of legal definitions, and the societal implications of punishment and rehabilitation. They discuss the balance between holding individuals accountable and understanding the underlying factors that lead to such extreme behaviors.

Notable Quote: Kevin Greenlee contemplates the essence of punishment:
“Is it simply to keep the public safe... Is it revenge?... Is it rehabilitation?” [33:42]

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Conclusion

In "Plazas and Pizzas," The Murder Sheet offers a profound exploration of diverse murder cases, emphasizing the role of forensic advancements and the intricate nature of human behavior. Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of true crime, blending meticulous research with empathetic storytelling.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode:

• Áine Cain:
  “The search for truth never ends.” [00:00]

• Kevin Greenlee:
  “We make them often out to be really cool and competent in most TV shows.” [44:16]

• Sponsors Mentioned: While sponsors are present throughout the episode, the hosts ensure that the focus remains on delivering in-depth crime analysis and discussions.

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For More Information and Resources:

• Join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook: Engage with other true crime enthusiasts and discuss cases covered in the podcast.
• Support the Show: Visit Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to contribute to the research and reporting efforts.

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This summary is crafted to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode for those who haven't listened, encapsulating key discussions, insights, and poignant moments highlighted by the hosts.

Transcript

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[Sponsor Representative]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

And just remember, by supporting our sponsors.

[Sponsor Representative]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

We recently gifted ourselves some luxurious pieces from Quince. I got their suede bomber jacket and I love it. And whenever I wear it out I get lots of compliments, which of course I enjoy. It is also highly functional and comfortable and I've really appreciated it during this cold Indiana winter.

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

Content warning this episode contains discussion of.

[Sponsor Representative]

Rape, murder and violence and may also contain some profanity. So today on the murder shoot, we're going to five states, probably more than that, actually, but we're going to at least New Jersey, New York, Maryland, California, and New Mexico. So we're going all around and we're going to talk about some cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So all aboard.

[Sponsor Representative]

How. Why would you do that? No, I'm not going to pit the button. That just is really that the energy you want to be bringing to our True Crime podcast?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hit the button. It's right there.

[Sponsor Representative]

Sad.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Podcast Host]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Podcast Host]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the cheat sheet.

[Sponsor Representative]

Plazas and pizzas. So don't worry, folks. I've been silently remonstrating with Kevin for the the past few seconds as the music played, reminding them him that this is not a podcast about Thomas the Tank Engine. It's about crime.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can't complain. It's time for the cane train. First stop. What? The first stop, I believe, is New Jersey and Maryland.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah, so, I mean, first two stops, I guess. Timetable's off, man. So these are two cases that were sort of both recommended by listeners. The one from New Jersey was emailed in by a listener, and then the other one was posted in our wonderful Facebook group that we love. And you should totally join, as long as you're not gonna break the rules. So this is. These are two cases that were recently solved by forensic genetic genealogy. So this IgG, as it's often called, investigative genetic genealogy, is been very much a tool in the solving of cold cases around the country. And both of these are kind of.

[Anya Cain]

Good examples of what tends to happen.

[Sponsor Representative]

So this first one took place in.

[Anya Cain]

1999 in New Jersey.

[Sponsor Representative]

You had a young woman named Nancy Noga.

[Anya Cain]

She was only 17. She had just recently enlisted in the.

[Sponsor Representative]

United States Air Force and was preparing to go to basic training when she left her job at a store and was, you know, not.

[Anya Cain]

Her father reported her missing after she.

[Sponsor Representative]

Didn'T come home on January 7, 1999.

[Anya Cain]

Five days later, January 12, 1999, her frozen body is found behind the mini.

[Sponsor Representative]

Mall Plaza shopping center, which was about a 15 minute walk from her apartment where she lived. So her family has had to endure that unsolved case, you know, since 1999. This is a young teenage girl, she's found face down, covered in snow. She died of blunt force trauma and she had been raped. And recently, in 2021 to be precise, through investigative genetic genealogy, a man named Bruce Symansky, who's now 52, was arrested just recently.

[Anya Cain]

He was found guilty of sentenced to.

[Sponsor Representative]

Life with 30 years of parole ineligibility. So I imagine that would mean he'd be in his 80s if he survives that long before he could get out. Interestingly enough, his sister in law, Madeline.

[Anya Cain]

Elizabeth, has posted all over Facebook a.

[Sponsor Representative]

Handwritten letter from this man talking about how, you know, he's so innocent. He's so innocent that he didn't take a plea agreement. Wow, where have we heard that before? Um, and, and everyone should read all the pages of discovery because, you know, Kevin, this may blow your mind, but the discovery has other suspects in it.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Sponsor Representative]

But it's so weird. The weird thing is that none of.

[Anya Cain]

Their DNA was found on the murder victim who had been raped.

[Sponsor Representative]

So it's almost like we can kind of disregard that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It sounds like it.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I'm so glad we have.

[Sponsor Representative]

These, you know, legal titans weighing in who are justifying their horrible relative. This is, this is a, this is.

[Anya Cain]

Something from his letter, a quote from.

[Sponsor Representative]

His letter that I wanted to read. Quote, DNA doesn't make a person a murderer. And it also doesn't mean a person was kidnapped or sexually assaulted either.

[Anya Cain]

End quote.

[Sponsor Representative]

Okay. This is actually a sentiment that I.

[Anya Cain]

Do agree with and I wanted to.

[Sponsor Representative]

Expand upon, so I agree with Symansky's general point here. Oftentimes, I think in true crime, DNA is talked about in a somewhat inaccurate or facetious way. If a body is found and there's some DNA on the person's shoe or.

[Anya Cain]

They have a hair on them from.

[Sponsor Representative]

Somebody else, you know, that kind of DNA can be pretty transitory. I don't know if that's the word, but sometimes somebody's hair can get on something and it doesn't really necessarily tie.

[Anya Cain]

To them to the crime scene.

[Sponsor Representative]

Like if you, if you live with somebody, maybe, maybe their hair gets at the crime scene. You know, this is. Hair gets everywhere. I mean, like we, this is just what happens. But there's a huge difference between that and somebody's semen.

[Anya Cain]

Getting somewhere in a.

[Sponsor Representative]

In a rape murder case when there's.

[Anya Cain]

No tie between the victim and that person.

[Sponsor Representative]

So had Symansky been dating this young woman at the time or had some kind of connection?

[Anya Cain]

And there could have been some explanation. Okay, there was consensual sexual activity, then she was murdered. That can be a discussion.

[Sponsor Representative]

But it seems like the evidence in this case, the circumstantial evidence, is that.

[Anya Cain]

This woman was abducted, raped and murdered.

[Sponsor Representative]

And the fact that there were other.

[Anya Cain]

People who came up over the years of investigation whose DNA did not match the scene is irrelevant.

[Sponsor Representative]

One interesting thing I found when I researched this guy because I was just trying to figure out, like, who is this person? He actually comes up on a website.

[Anya Cain]

Called Sedition Hunters, which is an online.

[Sponsor Representative]

Community that identified a lot of people who were. Were present during the attack on the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021. And he is, he was not someone who got into trouble over that. He was someone they identified as being at.

[Anya Cain]

On Capitol grounds wearing a hat that.

[Sponsor Representative]

Said, fuck you pay me. So they linked him to that. They linked him to the Proud Boys Far right organization. So that seems to be, you know, something in his background. But he is obviously now incarcerated. My sources for this were newjersey.

[Anya Cain]

Com, my Central Jersey and Sedition Hunters, as I mentioned.

[Sponsor Representative]

But yeah, I do think it is important though, about the DNA thing because sometimes I think DNA is overstated. You know, people say, oh, let's just test it again. It's like, if it's touched DNA, who cares? You know, that's not necessarily super damning unless someone had absolutely no reason to be there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Sponsor Representative]

Now let's talk about the next one. Kind of a similar theme. This is my information's from Newsweek and.

[Anya Cain]

A press release from the Prince George Police Department.

[Sponsor Representative]

So a young woman named Catherine Donahue was, Was murdered many, many years ago. So I think it was in 1979 in. In Maryland. She was a young woman from arlington. She was 31, had her whole life ahead of her, but unfortunately was beaten, raped, murdered and left in a parking lot in Maryland in Prince George's County. So fortunately, in that case, the police.

[Anya Cain]

Preserved DNA evidence or traces of DNA evidence, and at a certain point, they.

[Sponsor Representative]

Were able to, through advances in technology, submit that. And they had some help from the FBI. The FBI, specifically their IGG team, as well as othram, which of course is a company that does a lot of these IGG cases. And you know, they. These different agencies worked together and they.

[Anya Cain]

Were able to identify a Suspect.

[Sponsor Representative]

And that was Roger Zotis Brown. He's 82, and he's living his life in North Carolina. And they came in and arrested him. And I would say, you know, good.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, and there's some additional reporting from.

[Sponsor Representative]

The pilot that I also cited. So this is a. This is a case where, you know, you have a lot of. I think one thing people have a hard time with is the idea that.

[Anya Cain]

Someone can do something like this and.

[Sponsor Representative]

Go live their lives. But I think what people are forgetting.

[Anya Cain]

Is that some people are awful and.

[Sponsor Representative]

They can do that, and that's fine for them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Sponsor Representative]

You know, I don't. I. Too much is made about that. You can't really understand the kind of thinking from somebody who would willingly kill somebody in order to achieve an orgasm, in order to, you know, sexually gratify themselves or work out their rage or. Why ever. Why. Why on earth anyone would ever attack, rape, and murder a stranger? I mean, I. I don't think we can. I don't think people who are not.

[Anya Cain]

Going to do that can necessarily fully.

[Sponsor Representative]

Fathom why that happens. So when people say, well, you know, it's serial killers or bust, that I.

[Anya Cain]

Think fundamentally understands that just sometimes people.

[Sponsor Representative]

Do one really, really awful thing, and then they go back and live their mundane little lives. Not everything's a serial killer, but it doesn't make it any less heinous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, not. Not at all. Person's just his dad.

[Anya Cain]

Yep. So, on to the next case, I think.

[Sponsor Representative]

So we're going to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, as we ride the rails down to New Mexico, which is the next case, I gotta take credit for you picking this case, because as we were looking for cases, I said, oh, Anya, this is an interesting headline. And I read it to you and you cried out, I want to do that case.

[Sponsor Representative]

This. This headline was so wild. It's. This headline was from ABQ Raw, which is sort of a blog that compiles a lot of news in the Albuquerque area. And the headline was, third Scumbag Teen.

[Anya Cain]

Arrested and Murder of Beloved Scientist Slash Cyclist.

[Sponsor Representative]

So this is one I thought it.

[Anya Cain]

Might be also interesting a little bit.

[Sponsor Representative]

To talk about, like, how. How headlines and how angles can sort of shape coverage. Right. So. So at a lot of publications, this.

[Anya Cain]

Kind of headline would not fly.

[Sponsor Representative]

You know, calling someone who's alleged to have committed a crime a scumbag in the headline would not fly, even if people agree with the sentiment.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think you see that, like, in the New York Times.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe the Post.

[Sponsor Representative]

Maybe the Post. Yeah, the Post. That would probably put scumbag in quotes cuz they got somebody to say that, you know. But you know, it's just important to remember when you're reading different out. Like it's. I think, I mean this had some really interesting information. So I'm not actually criticizing it necessarily. It's just more of like we have to be very aware when we're reading different things. There might be different perspectives, there might be a different angle, there might be a different way of framing it and all that's fine. We're humans, we're all going to frame it in a way. But just be aware if that's like influencing your opinion, you know, it just different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Also I guess at this point we should in our heads be hearing not scumbag but alleged scumbag.

[Sponsor Representative]

Alleged scumbag teens. This is. And I also got some information from Kob Koat.

[Anya Cain]

They have done a lot of extensive.

[Sponsor Representative]

Reporting on this and I'm going to.

[Anya Cain]

Read from something from the Department of Justice as well because it kind of.

[Sponsor Representative]

Gets at the heart of the matter here. So there was a horrible, horrible situation involving teenagers who killed a 63 year old man named Scott Dwight Habermel. This was a, this was a man, he was a scientist, he was cycling to his job at the Sandia National Laboratory and you know, very early in the morning and a group of adolescents, teens, what have you filmed themselves purposely crashing into him with a stolen car.

[Anya Cain]

Killing him, running him over.

[Sponsor Representative]

Just a horrible thing. And these children posted this on social media. So now you have a beloved man.

[Anya Cain]

Who is, is dead.

[Sponsor Representative]

This occurred on May 29, 2024. But despite some of the evidence, you.

[Anya Cain]

Know, I think the video resurfaced later.

[Sponsor Representative]

But despite some of the evidence, arrests have, have kind of come about lately. I think this was an investigation where they were really looking at the fact that they posted online, figuring out whose.

[Anya Cain]

Account it belonged to.

[Sponsor Representative]

But you know, of course these, these kids are not just, this is not just like a random one time thing. The, the kids involved are 15 year old William Garcia, 13 year old Jonathan Overbay, and then an 11 year old.

[Anya Cain]

Who interestingly enough, I think in typical.

[Sponsor Representative]

Circumstances someone as young as 11 is not necessarily named by the media. And I think I'm going to make the editorial call of not naming the 11 year old.

[Anya Cain]

But it's out there, I mean if.

[Sponsor Representative]

You find it, I mean it's you know, pretty easily accessible and I think even some of these sources name him. But this 11 year old was reportedly basically perpetuating a one man or One boy, I should say crime spree throughout these different neighborhoods in Albuquerque. He was part of a group, they were stealing cars, throwing rocks at homes, stealing alcohol and cigarettes, driving a car into a convenience store and like to the point where police say that after he was in, you know, apprehended, like the crime rate went down. Um, let's talk about one of our favorite people who also happens to do one of our favorite podcasts.

[Anya Cain]

Obviously I'm talking about Jason Blair and.

[Sponsor Representative]

His show the Silver Linings Handbook.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You probably recognize Jason's name because we've been on his show and he's been on ours to talk about true crime, ethics and the media. He's always got thoughtful insights to share. Plus he's got all kinds of ideas on how to make true crime a more respectful and compassionate space.

[Anya Cain]

The Silver Linings Handbook is a weekly podcast that's totally interview centric, so you get to hear Jason's in depth conversations with all kinds of inspiring people. You'll hear discussions about well being, mental.

[Sponsor Representative]

Health, the law and the criminal justice system, true crime, religion and marginalized communities, and just about everything in between. For all you true Crime fans, he's had on the hosts of the Prosecutors, the Consult, and yours truly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jason is a wonderful person with a seemingly endless well of compassion and empathy for others that serves him quite well as an interviewer. We were really gripped by his recent conversations with the daughter of a murdered police detective, the sister of a missing native woman in Montana, and Gabby Petito's father. These were all humanistic and in depth talks that got to the heart of topics like grief, advocacy and abuse.

[Anya Cain]

We've always enjoyed our conversations with Jason on the Silver Linings Handbook and behind.

[Sponsor Representative]

The scenes, getting to listen to his.

[Anya Cain]

Show is a bit like dropping by.

[Sponsor Representative]

For one of those talks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook Wherever you listen to podcasts, get this.

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[Sponsor Representative]

So, I mean, this is just kind of classic. Or maybe, maybe classic is wrong. Extreme delinquency, juvenile delinquency from these, these kids. Yeah, but the one who was driving was seemingly the Jonathan Overbay, the 13 year old. The other two were like egging him on, like, oh, let's hit him, tap him, you know, and whether or not the intent was to kill, obviously when you're hitting a cyclist with a car, I mean, it's pretty reckless disregard for human life. Uh, these kids have been arrested. And a lot of people I've seen in the commentary is like, where are the parents? What, what causes an 11 year old to go that bad? What causes a 13 year old, a 15 year old? I mean, these are kids, so what gives? Well, I thought it'd be interesting to go over some of this. And so I looked at. This is kind of an older report. It's from 2003, but I thought it was still interesting. It's from Michael Schrader.

[Anya Cain]

It's called Risk Factors for Delinquency and.

[Sponsor Representative]

Overview, it's from the US Department of.

[Anya Cain]

Justice, Office of Juvenile justice and Delinquency. So these are the risk and protective factors.

[Sponsor Representative]

Okay. And they're by different domains based on.

[Anya Cain]

Individual, family, school, peer group and community.

[Sponsor Representative]

Protective factors is like the opposite of a risk factor.

[Anya Cain]

What can prevent or what, what are.

[Sponsor Representative]

Some factors that kind of point away from delinquency? So they've divided it up by early.

[Anya Cain]

Onset, which is delinquent 6 to 11.

[Sponsor Representative]

So I guess one of these kids would certainly fall into that late onset, 12 to 14. So I want to go over some of these because it might be interesting for people to be aware of. Like what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Sponsor Representative]

What points to kids possibly going bad? So for individual, when you see an individual ages 6 to 11 who is already engaging in general offenses, who is engaging in substance use, who is a male, who is an aggressive young male, who is hyperactive, who has a problem or antisocial behaviors, who has A lot of exposure to television violence, who has medical or physical problems, who has a low iq, who has antisocial attitudes and beliefs, and a dishonest male. Those are some factors, some, some risk factors for late onset for the individual. You can, you can also have general offenses. You have a sense of restlessness for, for males, a difficulty concentrating, just general risk taking. For males, aggression, again, being a male is a risk factor. Physical violence, antisocial attitudes or beliefs, crimes against persons, problem or antisocial behavior, low IQ and substance use.

[Anya Cain]

So those are some of the things.

[Sponsor Representative]

You are going to get here are protective factors. An intolerant attitude towards deviance, a high iq, being female, positive social orientation or.

[Anya Cain]

Perceived sanctions for transgressions.

[Sponsor Representative]

So if you do something bad, there's not a permissive attitude, there is a. There are consequences. So these are ones that have to do with the domain of family. For early onset, we see low socioeconomic status or poverty, antisocial parents, poor parent.

[Anya Cain]

Child relationship, harsh, lax or inconsistent discipline, broken home, separation from parents, other conditions.

[Sponsor Representative]

That'S pretty vague, abusive parents or neglect. For late onset, it's poor parent child relationship, harsh or lax discipline, poor monitoring, supervision, low parental involvement, antisocial parents, broken home, low socioeconomic status or poverty, abusive parents, or for, for males, family conflict. Interesting that it's harsh, lax or inconsistent discipline. You'd think, okay, maybe someone who's really.

[Anya Cain]

The parents are way too harsh. The kid rebels by being a delinquent.

[Sponsor Representative]

Or if there's two, lax, they rebel. But it's really either king kind of be a problem. It's better to have a more democratic family where people are kind of treated with respect and you know, kids have.

[Anya Cain]

Input but they're not running the show.

[Sponsor Representative]

I think that the moderation kind of comes in there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's interesting.

[Sponsor Representative]

For protective factors.

[Anya Cain]

For family, warm, supportive relationships with parents.

[Sponsor Representative]

Or other adults, parents, positive evaluation of peers and parental monitoring are all protective factors.

[Anya Cain]

A few more for school, for early.

[Sponsor Representative]

Onset, poor attitude, performance. Same thing for late onset, but add to that academic failure. For protective, there's commitment to school, recognition.

[Anya Cain]

For involvement in conventional activities.

[Sponsor Representative]

For peer group.

[Anya Cain]

For the early onset, it's weak social ties, antisocial peers.

[Sponsor Representative]

For late onset, it's weak social ties.

[Anya Cain]

Antisocial delinquent peers and gang membership. No surprise there.

[Sponsor Representative]

For protective factors, it's friends who engage in conventional behavior.

[Anya Cain]

Community, there's nothing for early onset. For late onset, it's neighborhood crime, drugs.

[Sponsor Representative]

Neighborhood disorganization, and no protective factors. So it's not only parents, it's not Only parents. And it's not only lax parents, it can be overly authoritarian parents too. But either way, parents are obviously parents and familial upbringing are an important part of this. And certainly I'm of the attitude, and I'd be curious of what your take on this is, Kevin, but I'm of the attitude that parents can do most things right, hard to do everything right, but parents can do most things right and kids can still turn out bad for whatever reason.

[Anya Cain]

Generally though, when you have an 11 year old who's engaging in a one.

[Sponsor Representative]

Kid crime spree in Albuquerque and having guns and stuff, that that seems to be some level of failure in parenting.

[Anya Cain]

I would, I would imagine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would imagine too.

[Sponsor Representative]

So, yeah, it's important to get kids.

[Anya Cain]

To remain in school.

[Sponsor Representative]

It's important to have kids be doing.

[Anya Cain]

Activities when they can so that they.

[Sponsor Representative]

Do not fall into sort of the gang lifestyle and develop sort of this.

[Anya Cain]

Antisocial clique when then they're going around.

[Sponsor Representative]

And mowing down cyclists and ruining Batman's family's life because they have to live with this horrible thing that happened to their loved one and ruining their own lives. It's just not a good situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree. Shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, let's journey over to California, a short journey. And my source is Fox 5 San Diego. And I'm going to do my best both with this and the case we're going to conclude with. But knowing me and my history with such matters, I think there's an excellent chance I'm going to be mispronouncing some names. And so I do apologize for that.

[Anya Cain]

Is it a cheat sheet if we don't badly mangle some pronunciation and humiliate.

[Sponsor Representative]

Ourselves in the process?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what the people want.

[Sponsor Representative]

No, it's not. It's definitely not. Judging from our inbox.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is a case I'm often drawn for whatever reason, I don't know what it says about me is I find interesting the cases where someone ends up getting charged with murder and they did not wake up that morning intending to kill someone or expecting this to happen in their lives. And this is the story. And again, I apologize for surely mispronouncing this woman's name. Mikayla Reilersdom. She is a 31 year old woman, apparently has an account on OnlyFans. She also advertised on a website for escort services. A gentleman named Michael Dale, 56 years old, reached out to her to procure her services and they had an exchange of texts and emails. And Mr. Dale had some very specific Fetish requests. As Anya is across from me reading some of these requests, I see her making some faces. He wanted to be wrapped up in Saran Wrap like a mummy. He wanted a woman's boots glued onto his feet. He wanted adhesive on his eyes to seal them shut. He wanted a bag placed over his head and apparently sealed. And while this is going on, he wanted the woman to be performing sexual acts on herself. And she agreed to this. And she was going to even film some of these acts and put on her OnlyFans site. And perhaps not surprisingly, some of those activities he was interested in are inherently dangerous. And he ended up suffocating and dying. So clearly this woman did not intend to kill him. She was only doing what he asked. So he was consenting, even though I believe he was intoxicated at the time of the encounter, but it resulted in his death. And there was a certain recklessness to taping a bag over someone's head and not checking in on them. And so she has been charged with second degree murder.

[Sponsor Representative]

Ish.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What are your thoughts, if any, on the matter?

[Sponsor Representative]

Well, I was making faces because some of this is pretty.

[Anya Cain]

Just seemed very dangerous to be doing.

[Sponsor Representative]

This, you know, like, I think, you know, the news articles talks about BDSM and those practices. I think, you know, whatever somebody's fetishes, if they're doing with other consenting adults and it's safe that, you know, for the most part, I don't really see how other people can object to that. If this consent and it's safe. Obviously this had consent, but it was not safe to me. I don't know, maybe it's because he.

[Anya Cain]

Asked her to do these things.

[Sponsor Representative]

Maybe that's what's hitting me.

[Anya Cain]

It feels a little harsh to be a murder charge, frankly.

[Sponsor Representative]

Obviously there's some recklessness and I certainly.

[Anya Cain]

Think there should be some accountability here.

[Sponsor Representative]

I'm not saying that because her actions led to him suffocating. So I'm not saying, well, you know, he paid for it. No, it's not that. It's just that, I don't know, it's different in different jurisdictions. To me, murder just is to be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Clear, I should specify this is second degree murder, where in specific intent.

[Sponsor Representative]

Ah, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is not required. So this would be compared to like if someone goes out drinking and then gets in a car accident and kills somebody or something like that. Yeah, there's not, there's not specific intent.

[Sponsor Representative]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But the argument would be there's.

[Anya Cain]

There's a recklessness there certainly seems reckless.

[Sponsor Representative]

I think I'd have to. She's, she's saying she didn't put the bag on his head. So if, but if he was all saran wrapped, then I don't know how he could do it. I'd be curious to see what the facts come out. I guess for me, when I'm seeing a case where someone obviously didn't intend to kill somebody and you know, like, I feel like maybe there's some room there for some kind of plea deal.

[Anya Cain]

Where it acknowledges the severity of what.

[Sponsor Representative]

Happened without necessarily like, you know, ruining somebody's life. If it was really, truly unintentional and a tragedy, you know, I guess I'm just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For what it's worth, she fully cooperated. She let police review and take material from her phone, you know, presumably some of the text messages and emails which indicated the details of the encounter.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe I'm being too utilitarian, but in.

[Sponsor Representative]

A case like this where again, there doesn't seem to be any really intent of harm, is it, does it do much to ruin a 31 year old woman's life? I don't, I don't know. I mean, ultimately the law is not about trying to make sure you don't ruin someone's life. It's about holding people accountable for infractions or, or breaking the law. In this case, it seems very reckless. I would be curious like, had she, had she done anything in this before? Like, did she have any experience? I know there was an onlyfans, but like I would think someone who was.

[Anya Cain]

Doing this would know.

[Sponsor Representative]

Don't put a plastic bag over somebody's head. That, that's just like, I don't know, that's so, that's so incredibly dangerous. I feel like you hear all the time about people, you know, a kid suffocating by accident or something through that. It's just like, it just kind of boggles my mind that people, you know.

[Anya Cain]

Somebody would think that that was okay in any sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She told police this was the first time she had done this sort of fetish service. So obviously there's safe ways to gratify yourself and gratify your fetishes and she just didn't have the experience to do that. But when we talk about punishment, maybe we should have an entire show about this at some point. Because when we start trying to figure out, oh, is this punishment right or is that punishment right? It goes to the issue of why do we believe we as a society are punishing criminals? Is it simply to keep the public safe? Oh, this person did something dangerous. Let's lock them up so they don't do it to someone else. Is it revenge? This person said, did something bad, let's get them. Is it rehabilitation? Is it something else?

[Sponsor Representative]

Well, I know the, yeah, the popular.

[Anya Cain]

Thing and the civilized sounding thing is.

[Sponsor Representative]

To, you know, oh, it's all about rehabilitation. But let's. It's obviously not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's also, there's an argument. Is it for a deterrent? If someone does something bad and they're punished and that's publicized, then perhaps other people who might be contemplating such a thing would see that and then not do it. So these are the different arguments. Maybe we should have a discussion.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah, I mean, for me, there's certain crimes. There are certain crimes where personally, this is my own personal opinion. I don't care about rehabilitation. You know, if you're, if you're a child predator who murders victims, I don't think you should be out anymore. I think you should not be out in society. You're.

[Anya Cain]

You're done by.

[Sponsor Representative]

You know, I don't. I.

[Anya Cain]

People who are, who are sexually motivated.

[Sponsor Representative]

Criminals, people are doing that. You know, I'm personally not overly concerned with trying to, you know, get them.

[Anya Cain]

On the same page with everyone else.

[Sponsor Representative]

Who'S not doing such offenses. As far as I'm concerned, they should be locked away and forgotten and, you.

[Anya Cain]

Know, resources can be best expended elsewhere.

[Sponsor Representative]

For people who are in other situations.

[Anya Cain]

In crime, I think rehabilitation should be more of a focus.

[Sponsor Representative]

You know, if you have people who are, you know, falling into drugs due.

[Anya Cain]

To addiction due to lack of economic.

[Sponsor Representative]

Opportunities, providing them with help that they need to get sober or that they need to get on a better path.

[Anya Cain]

And paving the way for them to.

[Sponsor Representative]

Be successful in that I think is wonderful. And that should be the goal. I don't think it. I don't think that's necessarily reflected in how the system currently works though. But yeah, that's. I don't know. That's my opinion. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's a very complicated issue.

[Sponsor Representative]

Wow.

[Anya Cain]

Dodging the question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't want to go into it in like a 30 second thing, but I'm just curious. Maybe we should do an episode on it at some point.

[Sponsor Representative]

I went into my 32nd thing. So I think in this case case.

[Anya Cain]

Though, I mean, there obviously wasn't the intent.

[Sponsor Representative]

So I guess to me, if you see a person where they're not likely to reoffend and it's kind of a.

[Anya Cain]

Specific situation, there's negligence. I think there needs to be accountability here. Absolutely.

[Sponsor Representative]

But I think that could be balanced with some measure of looking to, you know, not, not necessarily throw the book at someone.

[Anya Cain]

That's just my take.

[Sponsor Representative]

I don't know. People can disagree.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And yeah, it's, it's very sad that.

[Sponsor Representative]

This man lost his life in this way. And I would, I would hope that stuff like this would, you know, as things like only fans and you know, sort of this Internet sex work culture kind of become more prominent. I think it's important that like above anything else, whatever's going on, safety is really important. And doing things like obstructing somebody's breathing in any way, even if they're asking for that, is just not a good idea at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I believe earlier on the cheat sheet, a while back we had some sort of similar story where a person had a sexual fetish involving a specific type of anesthesia or something.

[Sponsor Representative]

Chloroform.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they ended up dying.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's exactly.

[Sponsor Representative]

You know, I, I'm in that, in that case, I think the post death behavior was a lot less open, if I recall correctly. So I mean, for me there's a.

[Anya Cain]

Big difference between I killed somebody by.

[Sponsor Representative]

Accident and I'm kind of covering it up versus I killed someone by accident. I'm immediately.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She called 911.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah, I'm immediately open about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And while on the scene, she, she provided the evidence from her phone about what had happened.

[Sponsor Representative]

Right. So it's, it's a, it's a situation where I think that for me does play a bit of a role in this. But with the chloroform death, it was the same thing. You know, he, it kind of obstructed his breathing. When you're, when you're doing something like that, it's just the risk is usually, I imagine, too great. And these, obviously neither of these people knew what they were doing, but at the same time, like, I think if you knew what you were doing, you.

[Anya Cain]

Wouldn'T even try it.

[Sponsor Representative]

Probably because it's just too dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this other guy, this other young man who. Or this other man who was killed, a 40 year old Thomas Kreider.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He, he was the chloroform case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, he was reported missing.

[Sponsor Representative]

And then a few days later this guy shows up and says, there's a dead guy in my house. So that, that to me doesn't look as good because I. Why would you wait?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, let's go all the way back across the country near where we started out to New York. And my source for this is The New York Post, oddly enough, I think we referred to them earlier in this very episode. And this involves an Iranian woman named. Again, I apologize for the name. It looks like Masi Alinajad.

[Anya Cain]

You don't apologize for the name.

[Sponsor Representative]

You apologize for mispronouncing it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, it's a beautiful name. And I. I should do better. I apologize. I'm pronouncing it Masi Alinajad. She lives in New York, actually lives in Brooklyn, where we used to live. And she advocates for women's rights and she encourages women in Iran to do things like show their hair. And this is seen as a dangerous message for women in Iran. And so the government of Iran indicated they would pay big bucks if someone would come to America and murder her. So that's horrible. That's absolutely horrible. It shouldn't happen, obviously. But if you ever find yourself in a situation, heaven forbid, where a hitman has been sent to kill you, you really would want it to be a hitman like the hitman that was sent to kill this woman. This is a man named Khalid Medivev. And his first move was, well, what I should do is I should insinuate myself into her life. And so his first step was he sent her a text, the letter U, followed by the best journalist, which is interesting because that's like the first message I sent you.

[Sponsor Representative]

I knew that was coming.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That didn't get the response he wanted. So then another text he sent her was, hey, how are you? I want to make immigrants paper. Do you can help for that? Not surprisingly, she did not respond. And apparently one of his assassin buddies said, you know, it's not a good idea to be texting your victim. Come up with something better. So his next step was, I'm going to stake out her house. And he parks his car out there, and he stakes out her house. But then what if you get hungry? Well, what he did was then he called and had pizza delivered to his car in the middle of his stakeout, which also is a way of letting. You're leaving a record of where you are.

[Sponsor Representative]

Oh, my gosh. Wow. And he's from Yonkers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Another point, he just walks up to her door and says, oh, what the heck? What have I got to lose? And he tries to open it, and it's locked. So what are you going to do? And of course, she has a ring camera. So that is picked up and recorded. So there's a great deal of evidence out there about his behavior. He ultimately is arrested. There is a loaded gun in his car, and A ski mast. He was going to use the ski mast to try to disguise himself when he killed her. And he revealed to authorities the names of the people who had hired him for this. Rafat Amirav and Polad Amurov. And in fact, at one point when he is incarcerated early on, he's able to get his hand on a cell phone. He gets a smuggled cell phone. And he actually called up Omerav. And Omerav wasn't too happy about that. Omerav started screaming, where the F you at? How the F are you in jail? You were at the journalist's house. And Omerov also threatened to kill the assassins, the attempted assassin's family, in rage. So at this point, he is cooperating with authorities and he's testifying against the two people he said hired him to do this. And their defense is, well, obviously this guy is an idiot. So the whole thing was just a scam. We were trying to prank Iran out of all this money.

[Sponsor Representative]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's just a hoax. It's a scam. They're saying this guy's such an idiot. That proves we weren't serious about trying to kill this woman.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Doesn't sound like a terribly compelling defense, at least according to what I read about this case. But it'd be interesting to see what the jury makes of all of this. What do you make of all of this, Ms. Cain?

[Anya Cain]

Baffling.

[Sponsor Representative]

I mean, just.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Also, the text and such sound sound.

[Sponsor Representative]

Like it's not just a prank, bro, or whatever. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You good journalist.

[Anya Cain]

You good journalist.

[Sponsor Representative]

I. I feel terrible for this woman.

[Anya Cain]

It sounds like she survived a couple.

[Sponsor Representative]

Of assassination attempts from Iran. And that's horrible. I think. Yeah. This is. I mean, wow, what a bumbler. I mean, it's basically everything you can do wrong as a hitman, which is fortunate in this case. You. You don't want competent hitmen because then people get murdered. But geez, like, I mean, the. The pizza thing is just shocking, honestly, like. But I think. I think for as much as we kind of celebrate, in a way, hitmen and, like, kind of assassins and all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That stuff, do we celebrate hitman?

[Sponsor Representative]

And like, we make them often out to be really cool and competent in most TV shows. But I think, you know, I think a lot of people watch those and they think I can get away with murder if I'm really careful. But I think more.

[Anya Cain]

More things are probably in line with what this guy's doing.

[Sponsor Representative]

Maybe not as extreme of what this.

[Anya Cain]

Guy'S doing in terms of the level.

[Sponsor Representative]

Of incompetence, but kind of some of those key mistakes and not, not being really able to, to rise to the challenge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Ordered pizza.

[Sponsor Representative]

That sounds like something I would do. I'm really bored. Let me. Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't be trying to kill anyone so that I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think you'd pack a lunch. I know, I know.

[Sponsor Representative]

Pack to a light lunch. I wouldn't be trying to kill you.

[Anya Cain]

That's what you should be saying to your wife.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I could just see you in the kitchen with a lovely little sundress, packing a little pun punch.

[Anya Cain]

Punch.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Packing some punch and Is part of our lunch.

[Sponsor Representative]

So now you're helping me. I, I, I don't, I think, I think killing people is awful. And I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to be involved in something like that, but. Yeah, this guy just seems generally unprofessional as well. And, And I shouted out Yonkers. Because I grew up near Yonkers, so that was kind of fascinating to see Yonkers getting involved in something like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So kind of a hometown story.

[Sponsor Representative]

Hometown story. Not really a hometown hero, but. But certainly a hometown disgrace in the.

[Anya Cain]

In the, in the.

[Sponsor Representative]

This guy trying to, you know, kill this woman for, you know, for exercising her speech.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the cane train ends its journey for the week in your hometown or near your hometown?

[Sponsor Representative]

Not, not in my hometown. Just near it. But, but, yeah. Well, that's, I guess, kind of. Our episodes for this week. If you haven't already, please buy our book, Shadow of the Bridge, about the Delphi murders. It's available for pre sale now.

[Anya Cain]

Pre sales help us.

[Sponsor Representative]

That's what we've been told. So if you can, you know, get someone to buy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, also, we verified it. It's not like we just. Somebody told us out on the streets and, and we believed it.

[Sponsor Representative]

How have we verified it? How do we. How have we verified.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've talked to people in the business about pre sales, and they say Anya and Kevin, they matter, but that's what I said.

[Sponsor Representative]

But I'm saying I don't really know how or how that works. That's all I'm saying. Why are you calling me out?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just saying we verified it.

[Sponsor Representative]

I didn't say we had it. I didn't say we had it.

[Anya Cain]

Unverified.

[Sponsor Representative]

I just said people tell us this.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know why.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, people tell us that because they know it's relevant to our business.

[Sponsor Representative]

Oh, my gosh. I'm saying I don't. Do you know how Pre sales. Help us. Do you want to explain that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want me to?

[Sponsor Representative]

I don't. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the way things work is.

[Sponsor Representative]

Who cares? This doesn't even matter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You don't want me to explain.

[Anya Cain]

Don't.

[Sponsor Representative]

Because I don't.

[Anya Cain]

No one cares.

[Sponsor Representative]

I. I just don't really know why. But I'm just saying, the important thing is that we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If people care, I'd be delighted to explain.

[Sponsor Representative]

Kevin can explain it to you later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I understand.

[Sponsor Representative]

Come to your house and explain it. You'll order PIZ pizza. It'll be great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I understand. How. Why they matter.

[Sponsor Representative]

Okay. Wow. So informed. You're so ornery today. You and your freaking cane train gag, and now this. Anyways, what.

[Anya Cain]

What else are we.

[Sponsor Representative]

The T shirts. If you want to buy them. They're also available in.

[Anya Cain]

In our show notes.

[Sponsor Representative]

The link is there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Anya once wrote an article of Business Insider about her experience on a train. Not the cane train, but it was a train.

[Sponsor Representative]

You're, like, shouting. You're like, plugging my old article.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People are interested in the cane train. You actually wrote an article about you riding a train for a long time. It's more interesting than that.

[Sponsor Representative]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Actually, it's one of those articles. There's, like, a lot of pictures with really big captions, and you wrote it before I knew you. And I remember reading it before I knew you well and wondering if I had competition because you make a reference in there to a friend, and it wasn't a romantic friend.

[Anya Cain]

It wasn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I was. Fine.

[Sponsor Representative]

So you were, like, doing reconnaissance on me is what you're saying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't you think that was the smart thing to do? You look at a person like you. Meanwhile, you're so you can go either way.

[Anya Cain]

Your social media presence was so baffling to me that I didn't know what.

[Sponsor Representative]

The hell was going on. Like, my recon was like, why does this. Why does this man have a Facebook profile that is a picture of a taxidermied passenger pigeon? Doesn't that sound like a red flag, folks?

[Anya Cain]

What the hell was I thinking?

[Sponsor Representative]

Anyways, I'm glad it worked out. I still don't understand that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's whimsical.

[Sponsor Representative]

This is weird.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's whimsical. See, you're laughing with delight.

[Sponsor Representative]

No, if I recall correctly, you had it as that, and then you turned it back to something more normal, and then you had it as that again. You're like, this passenger pigeon thing. Everyone loves it. I'm bringing it back, folks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because you came and said we're going to be interviewing people together. You should have a Facebook profile.

[Sponsor Representative]

Oh, that was it with your picture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On it because otherwise people will think you're a nut. And so I temporarily made it my picture again. And then when you left, because we weren't a couple, then I put it back to the passenger pigeon.

[Sponsor Representative]

Back to the passenger pigeon. Give the people what they love. Oh my goodness, what are we even talking about? Should we wrap this up or do you have something else you want us?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Push the button.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murder sheet mail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Podcast Host]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[Sponsor Representative]

We do try to check our email.

[Anya Cain]

Account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

They're a brand that just does this.

[Sponsor Representative]

Sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs. Really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Sponsor Representative]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Sponsor Representative]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My Skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me.

[Anya Cain]

These are so soft.

[Sponsor Representative]

They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.

[Anya Cain]

They look great.

[Sponsor Representative]

They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a.

[Anya Cain]

A gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[Sponsor Representative]

You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I do wash my clothes.

[Sponsor Representative]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Sponsor Representative]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Sponsor Representative]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out.

[Anya Cain]

Of the norm for you, but I.

[Sponsor Representative]

Think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.

[Sponsor Representative]

There you go. So you can go to quince.com/m sheet and right now they're offering 365 day.

[Anya Cain]

Returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com/m sheet.

[Sponsor Representative]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com M S H E-E-T before.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Sponsor Representative]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non thc CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help.

[Anya Cain]

Me get more into that state where.

[Sponsor Representative]

I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a.

[Anya Cain]

Wonderful support to us.

[Sponsor Representative]

They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show.

[Anya Cain]

So if you are one of your.

[Sponsor Representative]

Loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Sponsor Representative]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head.

[Anya Cain]

To viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off.

[Sponsor Representative]

And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I A Hemp.com and.

[Anya Cain]

Use code msheet at checkout.

[Sponsor Representative]

Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.