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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
It's spring. It's warming up outside. You might be thinking about spring break future travel plans. I know we have a few spots we'd like to go to to look at historical murder sites and maybe, I don't know, relax and chill out for once. But you know, when we're getting ready, we're going to be packing up some of our favorite quintessentials.
- [00:19]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:23]
Anya Cain
Bags from Quints, lounge sets, silk tops that are washable, European linen styles that are lightweight and perfect for spring. You can look and feel like a jetsetter without breaking the bank.
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:56]
Anya Cain
This spring I'll be wearing my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're cozy but lightweight enough for the spring weather.
- [01:03]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:38]
Anya Cain
Hormones can be a bit of a mystery and one well worth solving. From your skincare routine to the dinner you're eating to the air you breathe, hormone disruptors are all around us and those hormone changes can have a big impact on your quality of life.
- [01:52]
Kevin Greenlee
The good news is Happy Mammoth is on the case. Take their two minute quiz and get a tailor made recommendation to help you ensure that your hormones are in an optimal spot.
- [02:03]
Anya Cain
I've been taking Hormone Harmony supplements. These are great for women at all stages of life. I'm taking it because it's a great way of promoting gut health and reducing cravings. That's been my experience for women dealing with menopause and perimenopause. It can help relieve those symptoms, give you more energy and help you sleep. It's a wonderful solution for so many women.
- [02:22]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [02:30]
Anya Cain
That's great for me because as you probably realize from listening to the show. I'm often a walking personification of stress. Plus it's great because Hormone Harmony has no sugar, no gluten, no dairy or GMOs. I've also really enjoyed using Happy Mammoth's prebiotic collagen protein powder. It's got a sweet, mild vanilla bean flavor and it's helping me keep my skin healthy.
- [02:53]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [03:08]
Anya Cain
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- [04:16]
Kevin Greenlee
No prior consultation. It was like a Kreskin moment, only more romantic.
- [04:22]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And we also, I think it's Texas and California feel like they mirror each other in some way. They're both kind of extreme states, you know, big extreme states. So I feel okay. There you go, you know.
- [04:33]
Kevin Greenlee
And at the end of the episode, more information about our upcoming live appearance, including how do you get tickets?
- [04:39]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. So stay tuned. My name is Anya Cain.
- [04:44]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:48]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:49]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:56]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Provocations and predictions. I have a really important question to start out with for you, Kevin, and that's just. Did I say provocations correctly? I feel like when I I, no matter how prepared I feel for an episode, sometimes there are words that I see and it just is like the podcasting Equivalent of hydroplaning, where you're like, oh, here we go, spinning around. Don't know if I did it.
- [06:06]
Kevin Greenlee
It's very stressful because you're used to just reading as you do in life, and you're not always thinking, oh, I have to say this word in a moment.
- [06:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [06:14]
Kevin Greenlee
Like just looking at your notes for the first case you're going to do, there's like a stadium.
- [06:19]
Anya Cain
No, I'm pretty confident on the stadium. Or, gosh, I shouldn't be. I didn't look it up. I just, I've seen the same name in Indiana, so I'm going to pronounce it that way. Here's the. I used to be very much a perfectionist about this stuff, and I'd like, stop the presses. Like, we're going to figure out how to say words, and at some point it's just like, you're still going to get a bunch wrong. So what I prefer to do is just kind of say, try to do the research, try to figure it out when I can, and go for it, and then apologize afterwards.
- [06:51]
Kevin Greenlee
We have a great audience. They're always, if we make a mistake.
- [06:55]
Anya Cain
Whether it's, it will rip us apart. No, I'm just kidding. They will tell us which is good, which is what we want. So we appreciate you guys keeping us, keeping us getting it correct, and hopefully we don't mess anything up too bad. But here we go.
- [07:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Here we go.
- [07:10]
Anya Cain
Needed to start out with that's not like pronunciation. That's just more of like, how do you say a word? And I think I'm the kind of person where I don't talk to people or I, I, I'm not the most extroverted. So I feel like sometimes I read a word a lot, but I'm not used to saying it in conversation with somebody. So then I just, I wing it.
- [07:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. If you talk to people who grew up reading more than they talked, you're going to encounter a lot of eccentric pronunciations.
- [07:37]
Anya Cain
That's a nice way of putting it. All right, so this is a very tragic case out of Texas. Frisco, Texas, to be exact. It's gotten a lot of national media play so far, and it's gotten a lot of controversy so far, which is obviously unfortunate. But this is a case about two young men who had some kind of confrontation at a track meet, and one of them ended up being stabbed in the heart by the other and dying. And it's very tragic. So sources for this are the New York Post and wfaa. Local TV news station. So the two young men at the center of this were Austin Metcalf, he went to Frisco's Memorial High School. And then the other one is Carmelo Anthony. He was a senior at Centennial High School. So they're at both at a track meet in Kuykendall Stadium in Frisco, Texas, and there is some kind of confrontation. So it's. This is his situation where much of the news report reporting is based on the police, I believe the affidavit, the kind of police report describing the incident. And there's discussion of Anthony sitting in the rival high school's tent. It's rainy. It's a rainy day, so there's tents pop up, tents. And he's sitting there. So not really much context given to why he's sitting with the opposing team or what's going on. And Metcalf approaches him and tells him that he's not supposed to be there, that that's for their team. So at this point, there seems to be some statements, according to reports, that there's some kind of. There's words exchanged, basically, like, to the effect of, I believe touch me and see what happens from Anthony. And at some point, Metcalf basically grabs Anthony to bodily remove him from the tent. Anthony responds by pulling out a knife and stabbing Austin. Stabbing Metcalf once in the chest, stabbing him in the heart, which, of course, killed him. Metcalf died in the arms, tragically, of his twin brother, Hunter. So this is obviously something that escalated way beyond. I mean, I think I'm. You may have been to a high school where there's some rough housing between teams or, you know, maybe there's a fist fight between rivals. I mean, you're dealing with teenagers. You're dealing with the emotions and people trying to prove themselves. And so, you know, some level of violence isn't necessarily, like, totally wild here, but the, you know, the idea of someone getting stabbed to death is obviously pretty extreme.
- [10:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [10:26]
Anya Cain
So here's where things get kind of off the rails to a certain extent. There's been. So there's been so much misinformation in this case that's been spread around ever since that the local police chief basically had to come out and say, basically, stop doing this. And if I'm talking about people spreading that Metcalf actually died of an overdose and not, you know, like a knife to the heart people, there's. There's a narrative. And I've seen. I've seen, like, some of these social media groups, and they're all like completely, like poorly moderated, you know, I mean, I was in one talking about this case. This is a, this is a Facebook group I was in. I'm not going to name it because I don't want to give it. Like, this doesn't, it's not worth your time. It just seems like there was just like virulent racism. There was people just, just like making stuff up. The thing I keep seeing is like, you know, oh, well, Metcalf was bullying Anthony. It, from what I read from like press reports, these kids didn't know each other. There wasn't like some long standing issue between them. This was like a momentary interaction that went way off the rails. So I don't know whether people are getting that. And there's a lot of victim blaming. You know, I mean, there seems to be like a, like a kind of a genre here of, of kind of basically saying, well, you know, he maybe pushed him, so he deserved it. I mean, I would hope that most of us could agree that like a teenager doesn't deserve to die because they shoved somebody. If this was a situation where Anthony shoved him back and he hit his head and died, that would be, I think I would, I would be in the sense, I would be in the mode of like, well, that was truly like. I'm sure he did not anticipate that. It was just a heat of the moment thing. But when you're pulling out a knife and stabbing someone, that, that, that, that, that's a different, that's a different situation. So there, there seems to also be a huge amount of like, racial division over this where whereas Metcalf was white, Anthony is black. So there's people sort of making assumptions around that. There's people being racist towards Anthony and sort of making all sorts of assumptions about him. I don't think that's fair. I also don't think it's fair about people making a bunch of assumptions that, you know, Metcalf was in the wrong because he's white. I mean, it's just stupid. Just, you know, race baiting grifters on both sides being, race grading, race baiting grifters. I just, like, I think the people who are despicable are the people in that category, you know, who are making this about some sort of racial issue. I think that's ridiculous. There's no indication of that. Now. Anthony's family has been out in the media talking about how he was a really good kid, he got a, you know, had a high gpa, was doing well, working a lot of Jobs responsible, you know, comes from a good family. I mean, all that can be true and somebody can make a really tragic error, obviously. But one thing that keeps coming up is self defense, the concept of self defense. So I actually looked up the Texas statute on self defense, and this is what I found. And I'm just wondering if we can kind of talk about that from the legal setting.
- [13:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Sure.
- [13:33]
Anya Cain
What does Anthony need to prove or need to have in his corner to show, yes, this was self defense and, you know, that's why this happened, and therefore that would allow him to. To make an argument in court on that. You know, all this social media stuff just, I mean, I would really strongly encourage people to ignore this kind of stuff, especially when a case hasn't even gone to trial yet. Just like, let it play out. We don't need to, you know, the thing is, like, responsible people let it play out, but then, you know, all the people who are lunatics come sweeping in and make it, you know, so it's like, I don't even know if we should let it play out, but we should not be. It's not responsible to spread some of this stuff around. And it really disgusts me. But anyway, let's look at the self defense thing. So, quote, except as provided in subsection B, a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary, as described by the subsection, is presumed to be reasonable if the actor one knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used a unlawfully and with forced, entered or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actors occupied habitation vehicle or place of business or employment be unlawfully and with force removed or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force the actor from the actor's habitation vehicle or place of business or employment or c was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery or aggravated robbery. 2. Did not provoke the person.
- [15:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay, that's a lot.
- [15:19]
Anya Cain
That's a lot to discuss.
- [15:21]
Kevin Greenlee
A lot of confusing word salad. Basically, what it's saying is if a person's actions fall into one of these named categories, then you don't have to prove that the use of force was reasonable on your part, it's just presumed. And those categories are, for instance, if someone's trying to break into your house, right. You don't have to go and do an in depth investigation to establish that you are reasonable to use force. If someone is trying to commit kidnapping or murder or sexual assault, then you don't have to prove that your use of force was necessary. It's presumed. So that's what this first category is. And that clearly is not something that applies in this case.
- [16:17]
Anya Cain
No, Metcalf was not attempting to break into Anthony's house and was, you know, he was. People might be saying, well, he was pushing him out of the tent. But that, that doesn't. That's not a kidnapping. Right? I mean, like, that's. So we're not seeing anything that really fits here. But let's go to the next. Section 2. Did not provoke the person against whom the force was used, end quote. What does that mean? So they're saying that if the actor did not provoke the person, the person against whom the force was used, there seems to be some kind of conflict between these two kids that precipitate, you know, that kind of precedes whatever happened between them.
- [17:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Right.
- [17:02]
Anya Cain
So I guess that may be to be determined or. But it seems like there's some kind of squabble. So the next part, quote, was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than a class C misdemeanor, that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
- [17:21]
Kevin Greenlee
So again, these, these are just categories that if it falls into one of these categories, you don't have to prove that your use of force was reinstallable. Does that make sense?
- [17:31]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And then here's the part where it says, when the use of force is not justified, quote, the use of force against another is not justified. 1 In response to verbal provocation alone.
- [17:43]
Kevin Greenlee
So that makes sense. So if Anya says, kevin, you're a big galoot, I can't shoot her.
- [17:54]
Anya Cain
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- [18:09]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [18:18]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [18:43]
Anya Cain
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- [19:11]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [19:38]
Anya Cain
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- [21:02]
Kevin Greenlee
Podcast because now you know you can get away with it.
- [21:04]
Anya Cain
Get away with it scot free. So can't just be like cursing at someone and be like, well, now I can shoot them. Gotta walk away from that situation.
- [21:13]
Kevin Greenlee
What's the next category where it's not justified, quote.
- [21:16]
Anya Cain
To resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under subsection C, Obviously it's not.
- [21:30]
Kevin Greenlee
A. Yeah, you can't shoot a cop who's doing his job.
- [21:34]
Anya Cain
Pro tip. So. Quote. That'll.
- [21:37]
Kevin Greenlee
That'll be relevant a little bit later in the episode. We digress.
- [21:40]
Anya Cain
Quote. If the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other. End quote. Is that like. If it's like, we're in a karate competition, like, don't pull out a gun and shoot your opponent?
- [21:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [21:53]
Anya Cain
Okay. Quote. If the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless A, the actor abandons the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so, reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter, and B, the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor.
- [22:15]
Kevin Greenlee
So the use of force against another is not justified if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. So what I think they're trying to say there is. Earlier we said, if someone is trying to commit a crime or a kidnapping, what have you, if in the course of their commission of that crime, the person fights back, then the person is committing that crime. Can't say, well, hey, you're resisting me kidnapping you.
- [22:50]
Anya Cain
Now I'm justified to use lethal force.
- [22:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Does that make sense?
- [22:53]
Anya Cain
It does make sense. And here's another part. Quote. If the actor sought an explanation for, from, or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's. Actor's differences with the other person while the actor was A, carrying a weapon in violation of section 46.02, or B, possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of section 46.05.
- [23:17]
Kevin Greenlee
So none of these things fit this case?
- [23:19]
Anya Cain
No. No, no.
- [23:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Is there any part of the statute that you think that if you squint, it does fit the case?
- [23:29]
Anya Cain
Not necessarily. I mean, it's. It's a matter of. It seems like there's some recognition that Metcalf did touch him and pushed him or. Or put hands on him in some capacity. So it's not like this was simply a verbal dispute. It's not as if this was simply a conversation that got heated. So there seems to be some physical element coming from Metcalf but at that point you're looking at, does a shove or a push or a touch warrant a stabbing? Also, why does a teenager bring a knife to a track meet? I mean, that is something that I.
- [24:07]
Kevin Greenlee
Think is another kettle of fish.
- [24:09]
Anya Cain
Another kettle of fish. But I mean, I don't know, maybe, maybe it's for his own defense or there's some reason for that. I don't think that matters that much, but I do. I, you know, it just when, when you're looking at it, you know, I'd be also interested in what the circumstances were of him sitting in the opposing team's tent. Like, what was, was, was he friends with someone, were they chatting? And then he's interrupted and he gets mad. Like, I mean, this is more of, this has less to do with what, you know, self defense or not, but it really has more to do with just my own curiosity. Here's the other thing. I mean, we have the police report, we have, you know, Anthony's family has been out in the news saying that he didn't initiate the situation. That can very well be true, but that doesn't necessarily matter if he's the one who escalated it. Legally speaking, it's possible that Metcalf started it by saying, you need to leave, but that doesn't warrant stabbing of an unarmed teenager. So, you know, I think this is something where I think we can keep an open mind, we can look at it. And if there's, you know, if it comes out that Anthony was being attacked by multiple people and was afraid for his life, then you might start seeing, okay, there's, there's a, you know, potential argument for self defense here. Right, right. Just because, you know, a shove isn't a big deal, but a bunch of people punching you, you know, like that, that might be a big deal, that could, you know, you could die. So I would imagine that would be something that would change the game. If things transpired as has have been described, which is basically a request and maybe a shove. Do you see that being an effective self defense argument?
- [25:58]
Kevin Greenlee
No, it, it doesn't really seem proportionate at all.
- [26:04]
Anya Cain
It doesn't seem proportionate at all. And what's concerning now is that the New York Post reported that Anthony's stepmother has claimed that they have a PR firm. So I'm not saying that every true crime figure who gets a PR firm is, you know, spreading misinformation online, but it certainly happened in the Karen Reed case. And the fact that they have a PR firm, or so they claim. And we're Seeing just massive amounts of misinformation on this case spreading throughout social media really raises my hackles. That is that that may be a coincidence, but it may not be. And I think people trying to gain the system and what they're doing is they're essentially slamming a dead teenage boy who like lost his life. I mean, like, I, I, I, I, I, I find it sick. The Anthony families claim that they've gotten threats as well. And you know, who know, I mean, they, there's been a, there's been discussion about that and interestingly enough, the city manager spoke to WFAA and basically that this is, Wes Pearson basically said that like, quote, while the threats described are terrible, we caution against any conclusion, including about coordination without verified evidence. So it's interesting that as Metcalf is sort of being smeared in what looks to me like an organized campaign, the Anthony family is claiming that same is happening to them. So I guess we'll see how it proceeds. But either way, I think this is something where people make it about race or people make it about this or that. It's just frankly stupid because two young men, one died, one is not going to get it, live his life, and then the other one is facing a substantial prison sentence. This isn't like a football game. This isn't like two rival teams. This is like, this is a tragedy. Can we just like maybe sit with that for a minute before we start like making up stuff about them? I mean, like. Right, right. And like, I would want to know. I mean like, I, I think Anthony has a, a bad time possibly with a self defense thing. But if he's got some issues or if he's got some struggles, if he's got some mental health stuff going on, and this is like a reaction that's born out of that, I, I think that's something we should hear out. I don't think, you know, necessarily maligning him is like this. I mean, he's a kid too, right? It's just, it's tragic. It's tragic. So it makes me sick to see people making it into some stupid online blood sport. But I guess that's true crime for you. So anyways. Oh, and that Give Send Go website that like, does a lot of, you know, really controversial fundraisers for like, Luigi Mangione and I think Kyle Rittenhouse was all over there, you know, and they've been hacked a bunch of times. You know, GoFundMe does not allow for funds to be raised for defenses for violent crimes. That's just their Policy, they do not allow that. So, you know, you have other sites trying to get that business. And he's. The Anthony family has raised over $300,000. So that's where we are as a society now. Let's go to the United Kingdom. Go across the sea.
- [29:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Let's go across the sea. International edition of the Cheat Sheet. I hope you brought your passports.
- [29:24]
Anya Cain
Jeez. This is the. From the BBC. And also I read the sentencing remarks from Johanna Cutts, aka Mrs. Justice Cutts. Can I just say, as an American, the most delightful thing about the UK legal system is that they call their judges Mr. Justice or Mrs. Justice. I love that. That's just wild. I feel like a lot of judges here would love that, don't you think? Yeah, of course, Mr. Justice.
- [29:54]
Kevin Greenlee
I think you'd like it.
- [29:56]
Anya Cain
No, I'm not a judge, so I just. I love that. So this is also a very tragic case that makes me sick to my stomach. It's not because of misinformation, just because, like, I'm going to say something and then maybe at the end when we talk about this case, you'll kind of understand it. But, like, there's this type of crime that makes me angry, where, like, a lot of crime makes me angry. But, like, I can understand, like, in the Anthony Metcalfe, you know, that sort of situation, like, you know, heated situation can turn bad and people can make bad decisions. And it's really sad and tragic at the end of the day. But there's another type of case where it's just like a loser man or a loser male basically decides that, like, their inability to, like, you know, have friends or have a life is like, all the problem of all women and just slaughters women for no reason because they are just a loser. Instead of working on themselves and trying to become a better person or become a more interesting person, it's like, no, it's. I'm just a. Like a lazy piece of garbage, so I'm just gonna make it everyone else's problem. And I. I have mixed feelings about the death penalty, but I feel like people like this should be like, you know, thrown into the fucking sea. Like, I. I just. It disgusts me. Shot into the sun.
- [31:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Like, strong words.
- [31:14]
Anya Cain
I know. It's like, you're just a waste of space and you're making it worse for everybody else instead of just dealing with your own issues. Like, how dare you. Like, what a. Like, I can. I do not. I cannot. You know, and it's like, you know, you're not supposed to say that, because, like, it's. It's all supposed to be, you know, but it's like, no, no, no. Women are not going around. Women who are losers, they might be. They might be making people's lives worse in some, but they're not going around and like, hunting down random men to kill them. That's not happening. That's only happening with, you know, men doing it to women. So, I mean, like, men need to figure their stuff out with this. Like, I really, like, what is. What is going on? And in this case, I don't think this guy was linked to any sort of incel. Subculture. I don't think it's necessarily. I don't think you can put it all on that, because this kind of thing has been happening, you know, since people were people. I think. I just think it's. It's. I don't know, it just pisses me off because these women had the rest of their lives ahead of them. They were. They were doing everything right and just somebody being a total loser, you know, was enough to make it so that one of them is not here anymore. And I'm not going to read this guy's name. And the reason why is because whenever I read about a killer seeking notoriety, my natural impulse is to be like, well, we're not naming you on the show. Thanks for playing. You know, like, why, why give him that?
- [32:35]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, so what, what happened? What's the case?
- [32:39]
Anya Cain
So on May 24, 2024, two friends named Amy Gray and Leanne Mills were on the beach at a place called Bournemouth. Sorry if I'm saying that wrong. And they, like, lit a fire and they were just catching up. It was just like, you know, two friends. It was just a normal situation. And then this guy wearing a hood comes up and starts stabbing them. So he is. He's stabbing them, he starts stabbing Miles first, I believe. Then he turns his attention to Gray when she sort of distracts him. Ultimately. Gray is stabbed 10 times and succumbs to those wounds. Leanne mills is stabbed 20 times, mostly in her back, and survives. And there's no forensic evidence. So this is why, you know, when people say, okay, well, how could there be no forensic evidence? There's sometimes there just isn't. There just isn't. Sometimes, like, we have to get out of the CSI effect. We have to get out of assuming that a case is like a Chipotle, where you can come in and order stuff of like, okay, I'll have some DNA and a murder weapon. You know, police can't do that, they can't bend reality to suit their needs. Sometimes killers are prepared, as in this case, and sometimes killers do get lucky. So you know this, this, the one thing that this, this case did have though is there were a lot of CCTV surveillance footage cameras in the area and the police were a Dorset police were able to essentially like put it together like a tapestry where they're following the killer and they had to follow him for quite a while. But ultimately they follow this guy into a convenience store and he purchases something and this doofus used his bank card. So this guy is this 20 year old guy, he's a criminology student at the University of Greenwich and he, I think he thinks, you know, he's studying criminology and criminal psychology. He thinks he's this, you know, criminal genius and he's going to be able to get away with this. But he uses his bank card to make the purchase. So they get his name and they arrest him. Here's what they never get from him. They never get a murder weapon, they never get a piece of forensic evidence. So again, when, when I ever I hear people saying I can't believe X case didn't have X, it's like that's just because you don't know what you're talking about and you're not widely read about crime and you've never listened to a podcast in your life because many cases don't have everything you want them to have. Even cases involving knives and stabbing people can get rid of stuff, they can get rid of evidence. Sometimes things just don't work out. Sometimes offender DNA is, you know, sometimes somebody just doesn't happen to cut themselves when stabbing somebody, right? Or they're wearing gloves, protective gear, you know, it just doesn't always happen. So this is how weird this guy was. He creeped out his own lecturers where like there were people who were talking about like self defense and DNA evidence and he, you know, or rather he, they were talking about like different things and then he was asking about like well what counts as self defense and like tell me about DNA evidence. Even though like the seminar he was at didn't get into any of that. And so his lectures were kind of like one of them was Dr. Lisa Maria Rice and she asked him, you're not planning a murder, are you? But he was. Unfortunately this is something that did not come into trial and this is something that often happens where like things don't actually get brought up in trial but they're very telling. But they're just Prejudicial. They're not, they're not something that should be shown to a jury because they're just too damaging and they don't necessarily prove anything. So he, in front of a female prison officer, he started touching himself sexually when he was. While asking her questions about how much press the case was getting.
- [36:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:40]
Anya Cain
So that was why I didn't want to name this guy. He was a total social misfit. No friends, no girlfriend, no real interest, I guess, in improving himself in order to like get those things if he's unhappy about it. And you know, people might be thinking, did he have any sort of deep seated hatred of women? The court said yes, but he's not part of any sort of like online forums or movements about like anything like that. Seemingly. He just watched a lot of horror movies. He really liked the Strangers. That's a horror movie. And he said it was because the killer had no motive. So just a weird freak all around it. Just a waste of space. And, you know, there's people who just like come into this world and don't really do anything of merit and just kind of take away from others. But let's take a moment to focus on the victims here because I think Mrs. Justice Cuts had some really poignant things to say to them, to say about them. So this is about. Oh, also he tried to, I think, argue autism for mitigation. So continuing the trend that we see very. I mean, like, you're hearing a lot of parallels between this and Brian Coburger.
- [37:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Right? You seem to.
- [37:54]
Anya Cain
Yeah, crim, criminology student, you know, things like that. So this is, this is a, this is something about, this is something about the killer first. And then I'll get into the victims actually quote, why did you do as you did? Dr. Ruthenberg's report sheds some light on that. You have experienced difficulty socializing and communicating with others by reason of the fact that you have some autistic traits. Although you do not have asd, it seems that you have felt humiliated and embarrassed by repeated rejections or perceived rejections of any advances you have made, particularly towards girls, which has over time resulted in a deeply suppressed rage toward. Directed towards society and women in particular. You developed an obsessional fascination with violence, horror, crime, and in the mind of those who kill, in the mind of those who kill. And a deep seated urge for revenge against society. In Dr. Ruthenberg's view, you identified yourself with the mind of a killer because you wished to feel the power of which you felt society had robbed you by rejecting and Humiliating you. The idea of being recognized as a dangerous killer became appealing to you, end quote. We need to be raising our children with the idea that, you know, they're not owed anything. They're not owed like a hot girlfriend, you know, and, and, and relationships are not some sort of prize to be won. They are, they are about companionship and finding someone who loves and cares about you and that you want to share your life with. And if you want to attract a good person for that, work on being a good person yourself. It's, it's not, it's not just something where, hello, I am a man. Give me girlfriend. That's not how any of this works. And it just seems like that's not being communicated to like a certain subset of young men for some reason. So let's, let's talk about Amy. Quote, that crime left a family devastated by Amy's loss. A family understandably struggling to understand what has happened and to cope. At the time of her death, she was 34 years of age and much loved by her close family and by her friends. She was clearly an exceptional young woman who was full of life and always there when anyone needed her. Cousin Megan speaks of Amy being her safe place, making her feel loved and welcomed wherever they were together. She was brave, strong and independent, always striving to be better. She was a carer for her 90 year old grandmother who has Alzheimer's. Her mother speaks of the great future she had ahead of her. She was happy, having recently been made head coach of Dorset Futsal, which she loved and for which she had received an award which made her justifiably proud. She had just started to plan a new work venture. She had much to live for, not the least her young daughter, who must now face a life without her mother's love and support. This was the person whose life you took in your act of random brutality. You must face the consequences of your action in the punishment I impose upon you today. But I recognize that nothing this court does can bring Amy back and her family must forever live with her loss. That said, her warmth and personality continues to shine as you serve your sentence over the many years you were in custody and are quickly forgotten. She will live on in the hearts of those she inspired and who loved her. So let me get the actual sentence. So I believe talks about mitigating and different factors. I just want to make sure I have the right number before I say it. But you're hearing, I mean that, that, that, that exact sentiment is why these kind of cases enrage me like this. Woman's life was lost because this guy's a loser, right? So he has to serve a minimum of 39 years. That's where this comes down to, essentially. I don't think that's enough. But that's just me. I mean, he could get out and have life to live. And I. I just don't. I. I respect the judge's decision here, and obviously they have a different system than us, but I feel like once you do something like this, like, meh, nah, it's not for. At that point, it's beyond rehabilitation for me. That's just my opinion. What do you think?
- [41:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I think he makes some good points there. Certain people don't change.
- [41:49]
Anya Cain
I don't even care if you change. I mean, like that. I mean, what. What are you gonna. This woman doesn't get to live her life because this guy had made this decision. So it's like I. I think some people are primed for rehabilitation. And I think doing something out of the heat of anger or something like that, that's fine. This was a calculated, disgusting, planned out murder that happened for no reason and deprived people of Amy. And there's no making that right.
- [42:16]
Kevin Greenlee
No.
- [42:16]
Anya Cain
And you know when people say, well, yeah, but we don't have to punish people for it. I don't mind that. I can live with that. Anyways, let's go to your UK case.
- [42:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, my source for this is the Guardian. And before I really get into it, actually, I feel kind of bad because you did two really great jobs researching those cases. You offer some good commentary, some very passionate commentary. And mine, the two cases I picked this week, they're just cases. They're like pretty much all I have to say is, what do you think of that?
- [42:51]
Anya Cain
Well, that's good. It's more light, right?
- [42:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I don't know. I feel the fool. So I apologize to you. I apologize to the listener.
- [43:02]
Anya Cain
Kevin, everyone. You're a delight. Okay. You're gonna do a great job. And just because I like to rant and I get ticked off by some of this stuff. Also, thank you to the listener who recommended the previous case from England. So I appreciate them, wanted to shout them out. Thank you. But, you know, you. I think you. We both bring a different vibe, and that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with your cases. I looked at them, so I think they're interesting.
- [43:28]
Kevin Greenlee
So the Cain seal of approval has been given.
- [43:31]
Anya Cain
Yes, it's been granted. It's been bestowed.
- [43:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, pretty much all I have to say about this is. Huh. So the UK Government. This isn't really a case per se. The UK Government apparently at some point saw the movie Minority Report and decided, hey, that sounds pretty good. And Minority Report is about a future where you can tell someone's going to commit a crime before it happens. And so the UK government is now developing a murder prediction program where it can use personal data of different people, including victims of crime, to try to identify people in advance who they say see are at risk of committing serious violent offenses. And that, to use a technical term, it sounds creepy. We all hate it. We've all had the experience where we say something like, oh, I'm looking for a hairbrush, and then you go on Facebook or Amazon and suddenly you're inundated with ads for hairbrushes. So there's so many invasions of privacy, and we all deal with different algorithms and the like. And so now whatever data they have, they're going to try to predict who is going to commit violent crimes. People there are concerned justifiably, so that perhaps some of the conclusions they reach might be either classist, by which I mean, they might tend to target more people who have lower incomes, might also be racist, by which I mean, they might target people who are not white. And also, it's not entirely clear to me what they plan to do with this information. So it's, It's. It's disturbing and odd. What do you think of it?
- [45:33]
Anya Cain
I feel like maybe those resources could better go into a different kind of, like, crime mitigation or, you know, preventing people from entering a criminal life. Youth programs, you know, helping people deal with addiction, substance abuse, domestic violence mitigation. Helping people get out of toxic relationships. Yeah, I feel like that those things could perhaps be the emphasis, you know, I. I don't.
- [46:03]
Kevin Greenlee
What.
- [46:03]
Anya Cain
Yeah. What will they do with it?
- [46:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it's not really entirely clear. The Ministry of Justice spokesperson said this project is being conducted for research purposes only.
- [46:17]
Anya Cain
Okay.
- [46:19]
Kevin Greenlee
Help us better understand the risk of people on probation going on to commit serious violence. A report will be published in due course.
- [46:28]
Anya Cain
So it's for people on probation.
- [46:33]
Kevin Greenlee
That's not clear either, because also it's including data from crime victims, the whole thing. It feels odd to imagine that once you have the capability to do this kind of research and to gather this sort of. To just limit it for research purposes. It feels like you don't gather a lot of materials just for research. You gather to do something with it other than just have it.
- [47:01]
Anya Cain
Well, yeah, I think a big part of the problem with this is that it's so vague. I mean, like, there might be some world where they describe it and it's something. Okay, well, that doesn't sound so bad, but it sort of sounds like. I don't. This may just be the way the article's written, but it just seems a.
- [47:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Little bit like, okay, Philip K. Dick.
- [47:19]
Anya Cain
Philip K. Dick. We're doing this. Don't worry. Why don't.
- [47:23]
Kevin Greenlee
It's just for research purposes, folks.
- [47:25]
Anya Cain
Don't worry about it. It's like, okay, I don't know. I would want to know a lot more about that and what.
- [47:33]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, I would be curious about what sort of information they're gathering about me and what sort of conclusions they're using, drawing from that information and what exactly they plan to do with that.
- [47:46]
Anya Cain
I just imagined a bunch of alarms blaring at the researcher's headquart reporters. And they're like, get in here. It's an emergency. And, like, there's like, a printer and your. Your face is printed out, and they're like, oh, this is the worst one yet. Somehow. Somehow you've gotten into the system in the UK and they just. They have concerns. They don't know what you're gonna do.
- [48:06]
Kevin Greenlee
I might buy an issue of the Sad Sack comic book you would like.
- [48:10]
Anya Cain
Is that a crime? Is that.
- [48:12]
Kevin Greenlee
I think in your mind it is.
- [48:13]
Anya Cain
Should we move there? Could be penalized for that. I. I don't know. I. Yeah, it's troubling. And I just, you know, again, sometimes things sound really dystopian, and then you look into them. This is kind of overstated in the press, but, like, if you don't have officials explaining exactly what they're doing.
- [48:29]
Kevin Greenlee
And that's true. Sometimes things sound dystopian and they're not, and other times things sound dystopian, and they are.
- [48:36]
Anya Cain
They definitely are.
- [48:38]
Kevin Greenlee
So that was one of my cases.
- [48:39]
Anya Cain
No, it was good. Well, you know, I mean, as we kind of get into more and more of this, you know, technology, you know, it's important to discuss this. I mean, like, you don't want people being spied on because they might commit a crime. That's really disturbing.
- [48:59]
Kevin Greenlee
The technical term is creepy. So the other case, my source for this was Yahoo. And actually, as soon as you got out of bed this morning, I said to you, I called dibs on this.
- [49:10]
Anya Cain
You did. Although I don't know why I'm waking up, man. What's going on? Dibs on the Weezer case.
- [49:16]
Kevin Greenlee
I don't know why I wanted it, but I wanted it.
- [49:20]
Anya Cain
I don't know. What, you don't even know the band Weezer? You don't even know it. I don't. I barely know it.
- [49:25]
Kevin Greenlee
But, you know, wasn't Weezer affiliated with the Little Rascals and our gang back in the 30s?
- [49:30]
Anya Cain
Oh, my God. What generation are you, Kevin? You. And here, here's the thing.
- [49:35]
Kevin Greenlee
We're talking about the group Weezer.
- [49:37]
Anya Cain
Kevin is a fake Weezer fan. And I don't mean the band, I mean. Well, you're not really a fake Weezer fan. I think you do genuinely appreciate. We watched a bunch of old, Our Gang shorts, also known as the Little Rascals, and wow, some of those have not aged well, but Weezer was like the original star, and I grew up watching the Weezer ones and, and so I, I. And the later ones. But you only did the, the last, like the.
- [50:00]
Kevin Greenlee
I did the mgms.
- [50:02]
Anya Cain
MGM era. So you, you were unfamiliar with Weezer at all. But, you know, anyway.
- [50:07]
Kevin Greenlee
But anyway, we're getting, we're getting way off and we're getting way the wrong Weezer, and we're getting way ahead of ourselves. So. There is a woman, a true crime author, among other things, among other items on her resume, named Gillian Schreiner. She wrote about Samuel Little, the serial killer. I believe she spent like 40 some hours interviewing Mr. Little. She's also, as we have indicated, we don't want to say. The most important thing about a woman is who she happens to be married to. Pardon me, I'm not sexist like my co host.
- [50:44]
Anya Cain
So that's why you're my co host, Kevin Greenlee's wife.
- [50:49]
Kevin Greenlee
That's why I'm highlighting her other personal accomplishments, such as the true crime. Also, this is getting some attention because she does happen to be married to a gentleman who's affiliated with a musical aggregation known as Weezer. And so she is in her home in her neighborhood, and the details are a little unclear, but in the vicinity, there was some sort of a hit and run car accident. And three of the people involved in that incident, they flee, they try to get away, and they run into this neighborhood where Gillian Shriner lives, and police seal it off. They go in there and they're trying to get these guys. And Ms. Shriner decides, well, what I'll do is I'll get my gun and I'll go outside.
- [51:44]
Anya Cain
Always a bad idea. Almost always.
- [51:47]
Kevin Greenlee
It's not clear what her motive was. Maybe she wants to protect her property, I don't know. But she goes out there with the gun and she has an encounter with the police. And the police tell her, drop the gun. Drop the gun. And here's one thing to remember. If you are given an order by the police, even if in your heart of hearts you think, well, they're going too far, this isn't right. That moment is not the time and the place to litigate and figure that out. In that moment you obey the order. And then if you are convinced it was wrong or improper or you've been victimized, there are times down the road where you will have an opportunity to deal with that, perhaps in a courtroom, because it's unsafe and you should, but you don't do it in that moment. So I don't know what was in her head, but she did not drop her gun when they ordered her to. And then she did the worst possible thing she could do in that situation. She raised her gun and she pointed it at police. And at that point police shot her. Her injuries were relatively minor and non life threatening. But she has now been charged with attempted murder for pointing the gun at the police.
- [53:16]
Anya Cain
I mean, wild. And I just. What was going through her head? I'd be really curious to know. Like I, I don't understand that.
- [53:28]
Kevin Greenlee
You should know if you point a gun at police officers, it's not a good idea and it's not going to end well.
- [53:35]
Anya Cain
The only thing that I can think of, like, I mean that, that gives her the benefit of the doubt is a very poorly timed mental health crisis.
- [53:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Or maybe she didn't understand that they were police. Maybe she, maybe her raising the gun is misinterpreted and she's. I was trying to return it to them like that judge in California we keep hearing about.
- [53:56]
Anya Cain
Right.
- [53:56]
Kevin Greenlee
So. So who knows what sort of defenses they will, they will raise.
- [54:00]
Anya Cain
Well, you know. Yeah. And, and was this caught on video or.
- [54:03]
Kevin Greenlee
I believe there's footage of at least part of it.
- [54:05]
Anya Cain
Okay. And maybe body cam footage, I would imagine potentially so, you know, we might get more context. Maybe it maybe absolves her somewhat. Maybe it, maybe it makes it clear that the police is version of events is accurate. Either way, it's just sad. I mean it's just like, I don't know, it's like what, like it's not even like she was on the run here or like what? Like, like it wasn't like targeted at her. So.
- [54:31]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, there's no connection between her and the people who were involved in the hit and run and trying to escape. So it's just a bizarre incident and I'm going to do something Very artful here. And I wonder if maybe she would have handled it differently if she had spent more time, like, in a library.
- [54:48]
Anya Cain
That's not artful. That was just dismal. Yeah, I'll go on, but I'm shaking my head. So this is something that we heard recently from one of our librarian friends. So if you listen to the show, you are aware, most likely, that there's been a couple times where our audio sounds really different, and that's usually because we're in a library. So we, when we're on the go, oftentimes or we don't want guests to see our messy office, we will do our interviews in a library. We'll record a show in a library. And libraries has been just a terrific resource for Kevin and I. With this show. It's just very easy to just book a conference room. Very easy to go and research cases there if they've got some books on crime that we want that we don't. Kevin, for some reason, doesn't have in his own vast personal library. You know, the librarians, libraries are our friends. I mean, they're just wonderful places. And we've had just a great time sort of meeting some of the people who work there. We've done events at. We did an event at the Greenwood Library, the Danville Library, to name a few, the Indianapolis Public Library. They're just, you know, they're awesome places staffed with awesome people. And as you can tell, we're huge fans of libraries. Oh, we've recorded at Peru Library. We recorded at the library in Kokomo, the Delphi Public Library.
- [56:09]
Kevin Greenlee
The Fisher's Public Library.
- [56:10]
Anya Cain
Fisher's Public Library. So, like, this is something where, you know, we really. We are very partisan pro library. So it. It made me sad when we heard from one of our library friends that apparently in Indiana, there is a Senate bill, one that is what the Indiana Library Federation is saying is that they feel that this will be incredibly devastating to libraries throughout Indiana, particularly rural libraries. This is going to hit the small rural libraries that the hardest. This is bad because libraries aren't just a place where you store books. They're a place where, you know, there's community events, is programming. It's. It's helpful. It's good for communities. And this bill is basically going to cut funding in a big way, and federal funding is getting cut at the same time. So this is just kind of a huge disaster. To be honest, it makes me. It makes me really sad. You know, I feel like that's. I don't know. So you know, it's going to be fewer staff, fewer programs, limited, very limited hours, you know, limits to the collections, ebook collections, things like that. And they're going to be losing, I think, like, a ton of money in terms of, you know, what's going to be offered anymore in terms of the, you know, I think they said that, quote, the Legislative Services Agency's fiscal impact statement shows that SB1 would reduce public library funding by over 40 million in 2026, growing to nearly 6 million in 2028. Libraries depend on the steady revenue from property taxes to provide vital community services. Any disruption to this funding would have devastating consequences for their survival. End quote. There's been a massive push to reduce income taxes and taxes in general in Indiana. And obviously, I think a lot of us don't like paying taxes, but I also really don't like my quality of life, you know, plummeting and the quality of education and frankly, like, things like law enforcement. So, I mean, like, I think we need to look at, like, are we cutting bone or are we like, like, like what? At certain point, you know, this just gets to be ridiculous. And I think going after libraries is personally, in my opinion, that's. That's ridiculous.
- [58:32]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree. Thank you for mentioning that. And, you know, I'm about to do something very artful here. You know, another town that has a library is Columbus, Indiana.
- [58:41]
Anya Cain
Oh, wait. Can I just say one more thing? Please do, before we do this, because, yeah, you're being a little too artful for your own good. On Monday, April 14th at 10:00am at the State House, the Indiana Library Federation is staging an event and they're asking library supporters join them for that Library Advocacy Day again at the State House with the Indiana Library Federation. Monday, April 14, 10am they really want people to show up to show legislators how important these library services are and, you know, maybe convince them, hey, maybe we don't slash and burn to the same degree that we were going to do.
- [59:19]
Kevin Greenlee
And as I mentioned, there's a library in the great town of Columbus, Indiana. It's the Cleo Rogers Memorial Library. And I forget, have I taken you to this library? Because of course, Columbus is my hometown. There is this structure at the library, this huge structure which looks almost like the back legs of a dinosaur. And I'm not making that up. And that's there. And you can go look at it before you go into or out of the library. And I mentioned this not only because it's my hometown, but we will be appearing at Columbus, Indiana for a live event at the Swine and Dine. We're going to do a live recording of an episode. We'll be taking questions from the audience and the event. Anya is going to include cereal, which is why Anya insisted we go.
- [60:13]
Anya Cain
I have a question. When is it?
- [60:15]
Kevin Greenlee
It's on May 13th. The link for tickets, I believe is going to be included in the show notes of this very episode. And last week we talked about how Columbus is my hometown. It has all these great buildings. And I said some people call it the Athens of the Prairies. And we got an email and it turns out the person who first called Columbus Athens of the Prairies, Lady Bird Johnson, the distinguished former first lady of these United States.
- [60:43]
Anya Cain
Wow, that's pretty cool. And then didn't you say you looked it up and there's a lot of places that say they're the Athens or the Prairies?
- [60:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. Well, you were slaving over your cases this week before I slapped mine together. I was like looking up Athens of the Prairie. The great actor Vincent Price visited Columbus and he referred to the Athens of the Prairie slogan.
- [61:04]
Anya Cain
He said, it's not quite that, but it's still pretty good.
- [61:08]
Kevin Greenlee
It's got great buildings. It's got the library.
- [61:13]
Anya Cain
We love Columbus.
- [61:14]
Kevin Greenlee
The Haricos, an old time ice cream parlor.
- [61:17]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it's awesome. And we'll be there on May 13th. Check out the time's gonna be in the show notes. Check out the link. If you wanna buy a ticket, buy a ticket. We'd love to see you there. We don't know if Swine and Dine is owned by the same people behind or, you know, by, by the swine himself. AKA true crime swine 89. We don't know. This may be an elaborate trap by him. So I just.
- [61:40]
Kevin Greenlee
This may be your last chance to ever see Oddwin.
- [61:42]
Anya Cain
Yeah, we may. And you, you're gonna be there. Unless you're gonna just throw me to the wolves or the swines in this case. But yeah, I think it may be an elaborate trap. It may be for real. Either way, it's going to be a good time and we're really excited about it and I'm just kidding. It's not a trap. It's just, it's it's a joke. Some people are listening to this and they have no idea that the Swine lore. And I'm not going to explain it right now and I'm going to leave them confused. And that's okay. That's part of the show. You're not leaving confused about at least some weird thing. We said.
- [62:15]
Kevin Greenlee
But if you have questions about true crime swine, one way to get answers is to go to this event and corner Anya. And then she will give them. She'll tell you more than you want to know.
- [62:27]
Anya Cain
I'll look really shifty. I'll be looking around trying to get out of it, and then I'll tell you all about it. But it'll be really fun. It'll be really nice to see some of you guys. And we're really looking forward to it. And these are awesome people throwing the event. And so you should check it out and come see us.
- [62:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Columbus, Indiana, right off the interstate. Easy access.
- [62:42]
Anya Cain
I think there's limited tickets, so you should, if you're interested. I would lock that down.
- [62:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [62:46]
Anya Cain
Lock it down. Can't. Can't go wrong with that.
- [62:49]
Kevin Greenlee
But yeah, Columbus was, like, covered with floodwaters this week.
- [62:53]
Anya Cain
It was. It was flooded. But hopefully that's. I'm sure that's gotten better. But, yeah, so. But, you know, it's a great city and I guess the last thing is just my hometown. Yeah, it is. That is where you. You were raised. So there is. We have a book coming out, obviously, Shadow of the Bridge, about the deli murders. Pre order that. And we will really appreciate it. We're really excited about it coming out. I feel like it's going to answer a lot of questions. What do you think about it, Kevin? You look a bit nervous. You're not so sure what it's going to do.
- [63:32]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm also looking forward to the book. We've gotten questions. The book is not about Anya and me. It's not one of those books where it's like, oh, yes, we were living our lives and we got interested in a case. Hmm. No, it's a book about the case itself. There's almost nothing about us in there. We might at some point do, like, an episode of the podcast where we talk about the experience of reporting on the case, but that's not in the book.
- [64:01]
Anya Cain
And it's just a huge honor to get to work on this book. And we're really grateful for that opportunity. And so we really hope people read it and find it helpful and interesting.
- [64:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Indeed.
- [64:13]
Anya Cain
And tell your friends if they like books or true crime, or true crime books, then tell them about this one and see if they like.
- [64:21]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm going a little bit further. If you have friends who don't like books, still, tell them about them. Maybe this will change their minds about this whole book business.
- [64:30]
Anya Cain
Yeah, let's convert some readers here, get them Involved. Let's save the libraries and read some books.
- [64:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Maybe even dip into the savings account and get a billboard.
- [64:44]
Anya Cain
Oh, God. Don't. Don't. Don't. Don't be saying that. That's just stupid. What's wrong with you? Why are you trying to, like, get people to. Don't. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna nix that here. Don't listen to Kevin. Don't get a billboard. You don't need to get a billboard. Just. We appreciate it. If you say something to your friends, you're asking for the moon. That's ridiculous. These people don't owe us a billboard. I'm grateful that they're spending time with us, listening to us, after all the nonsense we've, you know, been saying over the years. But I. I think. I think we. We don't need a billboard. But if you can spread the word to your friends, that means a lot and thank you. A billboard.
- [65:19]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. I was gonna get you a billboard for, you know what?
- [65:23]
Anya Cain
Knowing birthday last week, knowing you, you would pick a weird picture of me. There's some weird. Remember that picture you took of me where my hand looks like, bigger than my head? Remember that? Where I'm, like, reaching out and it's, like, terrifying. I look like some kind of monster. That one. That one. That one is so funny. People will be driving on the highway and be like, ah, like giant me with a giant hand. See, that's no explanation.
- [65:50]
Kevin Greenlee
That's how advertising works. You want to get people's attention by.
- [65:53]
Anya Cain
Making your wife look like a monster.
- [65:55]
Kevin Greenlee
That's what it takes, monstress.
- [65:57]
Anya Cain
That's your whole. Is that, like, am I gonna, like, drive out here one day and see that? You'd be like, it's all for the book. Don't worry, babe. It's all marketing.
- [66:08]
Kevin Greenlee
All I'm going to say is, in the next few months, you definitely have some surprises ahead.
- [66:13]
Anya Cain
Oh, my God.
- [66:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Push the buttons. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [66:35]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [66:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [67:10]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [67:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Can we talk a little bit before we go about quints, a great new sponsor for us, I think. In one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?
- [67:51]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [68:17]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [68:20]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [68:21]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [68:22]
Anya Cain
Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who, like, wears the same thing. All the. This was a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [68:58]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [68:59]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.
- [69:03]
Kevin Greenlee
You made me sound awful, so. No, I. I wash my clothes.
- [69:07]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
- [69:08]
Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [69:08]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [69:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.
- [69:20]
Anya Cain
There you go. So you can go to Quince. Com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's Quince. Com msheet. That's Q U, I, N, C E Com, msh, E, E T.