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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Ever wonder who's out there making the world go round? It's truckers. Who unites baristas with coffee beans? Truckers. Who unites dogs with their favorite chew toy? Truckers. That's why Progressive offers truckers even more protection with cargo plus coverage to keep truckers moving right along with quote truck insurance. Today in as little as 8 minutes at progressivecommercial.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Coverage subject to policy terms, limits and conditions not yet available in California, New York and Virginia.
- [01:09]
B
Hi, I'm Anya and today we're going to be talking about a range of cases on the Cheat Sheet going from New York to Washington state. Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder, violence, rape, torture, as well as the murder of a baby. Okay, so Kevin, today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going back to my home state, the Empire State. New York.
- [01:32]
C
Empire State of the East.
- [01:35]
B
No, it's just the Empire State. It's the only one. Sorry, Georgia. Checkmate.
- [01:41]
C
I hope everybody had a great fourth of July. It's always a little bit sad after the fourth of July. You put on Yankee Doodle Dandy at kind of half speed, kind of a slow version as a fear goes down your cheek as you fold up your Uncle Sam outfit and put it in the closet for the year.
- [02:01]
B
So people really got a glimpse into our lives there.
- [02:04]
C
Kevin's very somber occasion.
- [02:06]
B
Kevin sits in a dark corner of our home weeping, listening to a sad slowed down reverb on version of Yankee
- [02:14]
C
Doodle Dandy as Anya puts away her Uncle Sam outfits, her whole Uncle Sam retinue.
- [02:22]
B
You're trying to bring that back.
- [02:23]
C
Yeah.
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, thanks for that. Even after we had our discussions, we
- [02:31]
C
have a closet that's like half full with Uncle Sam outfits. The other half full is, is, is full with illicit cereal. That's our life. That, that's a glimpse that's the life
- [02:41]
B
we're choosing to live.
- [02:42]
C
That's like one of us is living.
- [02:45]
B
You're the. You. You're the Yankee Doodle Dandy aficionado. Apparently that's. That's somehow worse
- [02:54]
C
doing all this silliness now because I think we have some depressing cases.
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, this is going to be a depressing case. We're probably not going to be in the mood to joke around afterwards. So, yeah, enjoy while it lasts. This is awesome.
- [03:03]
C
So just in case we're all just want to leave at the end, I want to quickly mention we've been having so much fun with premium. We're offering either via Apple or Patreon, extra episodes. We've done them every week, at least so far. Ad free episodes, early episodes. The works. You can shoot the works.
- [03:25]
B
Shoot the works. Do it. I mean, I will say somebody, one of our dedicated, loyal, lovely listeners, reached out to me just this morning and said, what are you using to record these premium episodes? They sound amazing. And I had to tell her our phones as we actually one phone as that we pass back and forth as we. Because usually. So with our premium episodes, we've been sort of having very casual kind of conversations, but oftentimes we're doing it when we're preparing a dinner. And, you know, you might get a recipe or two out of it too, but it's fun. I think people enjoy the kind of more casual chatty format and it's something that we enjoy doing. So it's been fun.
- [04:06]
C
And I don't know when. Dear listener. And you're listening to this. Sometimes I listen to podcasts the second they drop. Other times I listen much, much later. But if you are listening to this as soon as it drops. We're going to the Columbus, Ohio Book Fair this weekend.
- [04:24]
B
Yeah.
- [04:24]
C
On July 12th. Anya likes to say that this. We're going there because she sees herself as the Buckeye Buckaroo. So we will be there and we look forward to meeting you.
- [04:37]
B
Why is your goal in life to make me sound ridiculous on this show?
- [04:42]
C
I'm just stating the facts. And now that now is. Is it time to get onto the depressing? No.
- [04:48]
B
Let me tell them the logistics. So, Columbus, Ohio Book Festival. Don't be showing up in Columbus, Georgia, and Columbus, Indiana, and getting mad at us and. And becoming a troll because you got the wrong Columbus. It's Columbus, Ohio, July 12, which is this Sunday, and there's gonna be a whole festival for multiple days. It's gonna be amazing. You should go check that out. But if you wanna come see us, we're gonna. We're going to be there on Sunday. We're going to be doing a panel about Midwest murders with some folklore thrown in at noon. We're going to be moderating that. We're featured authors and our book will be for sale at the festival. You can purchase it there. We're doing an author speed matching panel at 3pm after that, we will be going to the place where they do book signings, and we will be signing books for an hour. We get an hour at the table, so keep that in mind. And, you know, if you're. If you're planning on going, feel free to shoot us an email and just let us know. And we'd love to meet you and hang out and it'll be really fun. So we're so excited for this. It's gonna be a tremendous weekend.
- [05:50]
C
Anya, the Buckeye Buckaroo, you were also telling me, you said, Kevin, I was looking up some trivia that Columbus, Indiana, of course, is the Athens of the Prairies. And I believe you told me that Columbus, Ohio, is actually known as the Empire State of Ohio. So that's interesting. That's a little fun fact.
- [06:12]
B
It doesn't make any sense. How can a city in a state be the Empire State of anything?
- [06:18]
C
I can go on like this forever? Unless you just want to get to the defense.
- [06:21]
B
I thought you were going to call it the Corinth of the Cornfields or something. I thought you were going to go with a Greek influence.
- [06:26]
C
No, I decided to reference back something that we'd said earlier in this episode for humorous purposes.
- [06:33]
B
I'm. I just. I'm just, I'm. My name is. I don't even know what to say.
- [06:38]
C
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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B
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [06:43]
C
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [06:51]
B
And this is the Cheap Cheat, Rapes and Ringleaders.
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A
It.
- [07:41]
C
A quick moment before we get to the depression stuff. Did you say this is the cheap seat?
- [07:45]
B
I I Because that was. Something went horribly wrong there.
- [07:49]
C
That could be the name of, like, your new football podcast where you're talking about football from, like, the worst seat in the house. You're a newcomer to the game. It's Football from the Cheap Seats. And there you go. You branded it.
- [08:03]
B
I I. Something went catastrophically wrong with my mouth in that moment, but I'm going to leave it in because I think I think some humility in podcasting is definitely a good thing. I, maybe I could try to pass it off as quoting John Lennon. Would the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands and the rest of you if you just rattle your jewelry. But I was, I think it's just more of like, I don't know how to talk sometimes, even though that's my job.
- [08:27]
C
I could tell you, you, like, pause for just a second and I knew, and you knew. You were. You're going to say, well, should I? No, I'm just going to press forward and maybe Kevin is too much of a gentleman to call attention.
- [08:38]
B
Never bet on that. Never. That's a bad bet. That's, that's, that's going to lose. You're going to lose your shirt of Vegas with that bet. And I'm going to tell you something. I saw you smirking across the table when I said that and I was like, oh boy, here we go.
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C
Here we go.
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B
This isn't the last we've heard of that.
- [08:54]
C
Well, people are going to understand why, because we have some very sad cases and we need to, in this life, we need to grab any bits of joy we can. That's my philosophy. Oh, wow.
- [09:06]
B
How beautiful. We're going to get a bunch of emails. People say, kevin, that's so deep. Kevin. Oh, Kevin, you're so thoughtful. If only your wife could speak.
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C
That's the only thing that's holding us back.
- [09:21]
B
That's the only thing going wrong here.
- [09:24]
C
If only Anya could speak, we'd have much more success.
- [09:27]
B
Yeah, we'd have a really. We'd have a Razzle Dazzle podcast on our hands.
- [09:31]
C
You're on the cheap seat.
- [09:33]
B
Oh, yeah. I can't believe that happened. All right, well, now I think we're going to your case first.
- [09:41]
C
Ready to be sad, everybody? Okay, so this is a case out of Missouri. My source for this is ABC news.com and this is one of those stories that just the, the more you hear about it and the more you think about it, each new detail just makes it sound more and more of a terrible, terrible tragedy. And this is the story of a 10 year old boy in Missouri who has just become the youngest person in Missouri to be charged with murder. He supposedly found a gun under a bed or a mattress in his residence and he used it to shoot a seven month old infant in the head. And the infant passed away despite the best efforts of medical personnel. And the 10 year old was taken into custody, charged with murder, obviously a very serious offense. Also, the child's Father or the infant's father. Pardon me, as a 19 year old, I may be mispronouncing this name. Kamarian Parnell. Mr. Parnell was also arrested and he is facing he's child endangerment charges and second degree murder charges because. Well, the endangerment charge is based on the fact that he had a live firearm in his residence that children were able to access and use and that this was improper on his part and it actually resulted in a death. So he is facing charges for that. Because of course, if you are a gun owner, it is your responsibility not only to use the weapon safely yourself, but also to keep it out of the hands of people like children who may not fully understand or be trained or know how to make decisions involving the use of the firearm. This 10 year old who's been charged with murder, he has told police he always knew where the gun was, he knew how to get it and he'd even taken it out and handled it in the past. You may be asking, okay, what kind of charges does this child face? Well, he can't be tried as an adult because he is under 12 years old. So whatever happens with the murder charges, that's going to be handled by juvenile division. So just a very tragic story there and everywhere you turn and look there is more tragedy there.
- [12:58]
B
Yeah, that's, that's for sure.
- [13:00]
C
What do you think of it all?
- [13:02]
B
I think it's absolutely tragic. I think what kind of parent is storing a loaded firearm under a mattress? Like to me, like a lot of the responsibility in this situation lies with the adults of the house. 10 is extremely young. Do you know right and wrong from 10? I mean, I did. I'm sure you did. Does everybody? I don't know. It's very young.
- [13:28]
C
It's very young. It's very young.
- [13:30]
B
I mean, and I would want to know, I mean more for my own Curiosity, is this 10 year old a kid who's being raised in an environment where it's not turning out well and he's already shown violent tendencies in other settings and has already been a problem. Or is this a 10 year old who's relatively fine and was goofing around?
- [13:50]
C
Yeah, I would be curious and I didn't see this, at least in the coverage I read. When this 10 year old had this gun and was handling the gun, did he intend for it to go off or was it an accidental discharge? And did he intend for it to go off and hit this infant?
- [14:11]
B
Like you get them like. I'm just, I'm totally speculating. This is speculation. I have no idea what the truth is in this case. But you know, if, if the baby's crying, you know, the 10 year old's getting frustrated, goes up and points at it, but doesn't necessarily intend to kill it. Like it's certainly concerning and that's concerning behavior. But you know, you could, maybe there's, there's some mitigating something and not intending to kill when you're 10, you're not necessarily thinking through the consequences. It's just hard to know without knowing the facts. I mean, either way I, I really just, I mean I condemn these parents for raising children in an environment. Why are you, why do you have all of these kids when you can't. You obviously are not interested in maintaining their safety and well being and taking care of them. I don't know.
- [14:55]
C
And I should say there was also another child, a seven year old in the home at the time. I'd be curious. Were these, these kids by themselves, what kind of supervision did they have with this gun in the house that they knew about? Having a loaded weapon in the house with kids who are not being supervised but who know where the gun is, that really seems to be a recipe for disaster.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah, and that's why for me it's like this is horrifying. And listen, some kids, I think for lack of a better word are born, you know, something's wrong and they're a problem and they need intervention, they need help. But other times I could see a kid who's, who's just kind of not necessarily ill intentioned doing something really horrible because just there's mistakes made and things get out of control. And in that situation I really feel like the ire needs to be directed at the parents who are allowing this to happen. And again, like, why are you not taking care of your children? You've set up your 10 year old to be in a horrible situation and now a baby is dead and it's just, it's horrifying and it's like the lack of, you know, where are the parents? You know, it just, it's horrible.
- [16:09]
C
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C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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A
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- [19:49]
B
And, and the, the. It's the father of the. So the father of the, the infant's father is 19?
- [19:56]
C
Yes.
- [19:56]
B
Okay. Presumably not the 10 year old's father though.
- [20:01]
C
Yeah, yeah, presumably.
- [20:03]
B
This whole thing just sounds like a mess.
- [20:04]
C
Yeah. Like the further you go when you start thinking about some of these angles, they're just layer.
- [20:09]
B
I mean, he's a kid himself.
- [20:10]
C
I mean he's a child himself.
- [20:12]
B
Well, I wouldn't say, I don't know, but he's, I mean you, you know, better at 19 not to leave a loaded gun around. But it just sounds like a, just a hub of dysfunction in this, in this situation. I mean just from the outside, I think it's probably safe to say I don't know any responsible gun owner who stores their gun in that environment in that sit in that kind of situation with kids around, with kids unsupervised. I mean that's just like I, that's not, that's not right.
- [20:39]
C
Right. You want to move on to your case?
- [20:43]
B
Sure. So my first case is in my home state of New York. Very sad situation here and an ongoing situation in many ways. My primary source for this one is the Democrat and Chronicle. I've done some good coverage of this. And this is the murder of Sam Nordquist. And recently there was a development in this case on Friday, June 26, 2026. Oh, and a listener recommended this one. So thank you to that listener in Ontario County, New York. That's in upstate New York. A woman named Precious Arzwaga admitted to torturing, sexually assaulting, kidnapping and murdering 24 year old Sam Nordquist in 2025. She is 40 and she is one of just, you know, a whole of seven defendants who had been charged in connection with murdering Sam. And the development is she's now pled guilty to all 10 charges. She did that in front of Ontario County Judge Christina Carl. And she will be serving life in prison without parole. And when you hear the details of this case, you'll probably think, good. Sam was a young man from Minnesota. He had a mother, Linda, a sister Kayla. They were both there at this guilty plea. And he essentially started a romantic relationship with Arzwaga, who he met on TikTok in the summer of 2024. So they met online, they got to talking, started a romantic relationship. And Sam flew from Minnesota to New York to stay with her. And his, his family is like, okay, he's gonna be gone for like two weeks. It's a two week vacation for, you know, to meet his new girlfriend. And he never returned, he never came back. He apparently decided to stay with Precious Arzuaga in the Patty's Lodge at Hopewell in all in Ontario county, room 22. She was living there in this Patty's Lodge thing with her two young children. And so, you know, like, at first it seems like, okay, well, he just made kind of a pretty big life change, deciding to move in so quickly. There's some red flags with that, but he's an adult, you know, we don't really know what's happening. So he, he makes his own decisions. But unfortunately he was never going to get out of that room alive because between January 1 and February 1 of 2025, he was tortured to death. His fee, his body was ultimately disposed of in a field in Yates County. The perpetrators, in addition to Precious Arzuaga, who was the ringleader by the way, authorities believe she was the ringleader and there may be actually federal charges coming down the line towards her. It's unclear at this point, but that is a possibility. It was alluded to in court. She's the ringleader. Other participants, Kyle Sage, Patrick Goodwin, Jennifer Keanu, Kimberly Socia Thomas Eaves, those ones are all pleading not guilty. So they're all saying, you know, we didn't do it. 20 year old Emily Motiaka, sorry if I'm saying her name wrong, pled guilty to second degree murder and second degree kidnapping. So one person is pled guilty, the rest are pending and saying they're not guilty. So what happened to, to poor Sam? Well, his hands were bound with duct tape. He was prevented from leaving this motel room thing with chairs. And this group kicked, punched and sexually assaulted him with a broomstick. And that caused his death after many days of torture. And even more horrifyingly, this group also coerced two young children into participating in watching this torture of this young man, Sam, by his family is talked about as a very kind person, a funny person, a good person, a very trusting person. I should note that Sam was trans. He was a trans man. But at this point, I have not seen anything from authorities indicating that they think that that had anything to do with his murder. In other words, you know, a hate crime angle. I've not seen that. It's possible that they're looking into that. I don't know. But either way, this guy was a really nice young man, and he was brutally murdered for no reason by just a vicious group of people. And I say that. I mean, I feel certainly comfortable saying that about the women who pled guilty. I think as far as everyone else's culpability, we'll have to look at the evidence and say, okay, who did what and what implicates who or, you know, whatever. But it's just horrible. And it won't bring Sam back. And his family is heartbroken. And so the ringleader, at least, is getting life in prison without any chance of parole. Nordquist's mom is saying she doesn't want her to get the death penalty through federal charges because she wants her to suffer and linger in prison like her son did and like Sam had to. And that's just heartbreaking. So my heart goes out to Sam's family and people who loved and cared about him. I wish this didn't happen to him, and I hope they can get some measure of justice by the time all of this is over. But, of course, you know, the heartbreak remains.
- [26:25]
C
It does. It's very tragic.
- [26:28]
B
My next case is a case out of Washington, and my sources for this are the Santa Fe New Mexican and K uow. And I. I didn't mean to pick two cases involving trans people this week, but we did get requests from some of our audience members, and I thought these were both very sad and interesting cases, so I wanted to cover them. But this is the case of Juniper Blessing. So let's go back to May 10, 2026. There's. We're.
- [27:00]
C
We're in.
- [27:01]
B
We're in Seattle, Washington. And there is, you know, in. There's the university, There is University of Washington, and there's off campus student housing. There's like a complex there. And of course, you know, if you've ever been in student housing or any kind of housing, there's a laundry room, right? You go and wash your clothes, blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately, something went horribly, horribly wrong in the laundry room that day because somebody came in there and found A body found the body of a woman with more than 40 stab wounds. Someone had been viciously stabbed to death, and that person was unfortunately, 19 year old Juniper Blessing. She was from Santa Fe and she had come there to go to the University of Washington, and she was stabbed to death in this laundry room in off campus housing. So one of a recent development has been that a Washington judge has ordered a competency evaluation for Christopher Leahy, who's 31 years old. He is the suspect in this case. Now, Juniper was transgender, and whenever there's a situation like that, they're gonna look into. Was this a hate crime? Well, at this time, authorities are saying they do not believe. So they believe that she was essentially randomly targeted and unfortunately at the wrong place at the wrong time. At least that's what's being stated now. Things can always change. The King County Prosecuting Attorney's office is prosecuting Leahy. He is an individual from Bellevue, Washington, and he didn't live in Seattle. And we're going to talk about why he was there later. But he apparently, yeah, he's from Bellevue and he turned himself in after a search. And this, apparently this turning himself in with his parents occurred after his brother recognized him and publicized images of the suspect and called it in. So I just want to say good for his brother, like, doing the right thing. I feel like a lot of people have this kind of just nutty mentality of like, oh, blood is thicker than water. Yes, it is. I mean, in many respects, you. I mean, loyalty to one's family is good, but loyalty when, like, we're talking about a brutal murder of an innocent young girl, I mean, like what? Like that. Like that, Yeah. I don't get that. But this guy did the right thing and, and, you know, his parents did the right thing by taking him in, so good for his family. And here's some of the evidence against this guy. The King County Prosecuting Attorney's office says that he stalked another student at the complex. And this was just minutes before running into Juniper. There were different tracking apps and video recordings placing him in different campus buildings. He's apparently following a woman around. And he was also attempting to enter private homes in the Ravenna neighborhood of Seattle. He was going around the murder site, like, up to two days after the murder. I guess. A woman told police he stalked her all the way across the complex into the. Into the laundry room. Oh, I'm sorry. A different woman then said that a man followed her into the laundry room. And then he said, oh, I'm just waiting for my laundry. So stalking, bizarre behavior, all of this. And apparently there are fingerprints in blood on the door leading into the laundry room, and those were a match for Leahy. So, I mean, it's looking like a pretty good case against him. The question is why? And one thing that's happening now is that a judge has ordered a competency evaluation. Back on June 4, he was committed to Western State Hospital for 15 days of evaluation. And a forensic evaluator with the Washington Department of Social and Health Services is going to conduct or probably has at this point conducted a competency evaluation, and he has not entered a plea yet. He's facing first degree murder with a deadly weapon enhancement. And no, I mean, if there's a mental health aspect here, I would hope that people could agree that even if that is something that maybe perhaps mitigates some legal responsibility, that somebody who's that violent and that predisposed to harm innocent women should not be out because we shouldn't have to live in fear of violent, disturbed males killing us. I mean, that's just not fair. And even if it's a situation, I think we can all. I tend to have a sympathy for people who are mentally ill. And it's, you know, it's diagnosed, it's very firm. They're showing all the symptoms. To me, it's like, you're not as culpable in that situation. You're. Maybe you're not culpable at all because you're insane, like, legally. But I still don't think people like that should be out, you know, maybe a mental hospital for life at that point. You know, if. I mean, if. If jail might be not appropriate, but maybe, like, you, like, I just don't think it's fair to have to. You know, if someone does something like this, I don't think they should ever get out one way or another. But meanwhile, Juniper's family is. Is absolutely mourning her. She was described as, you know, a very creative, a very kind, a very compassionate young lady. I think she was very artistic and, you know, was going to do cool things. She graduated from New Mexico School for the arts in just 2024. So just a very young person, only 19. She's just getting started, and her life is just senselessly cut down in this random act of violence seemingly. And it's very. It's very heartbreaking. If Leahy is convicted, he faces 22 to 28.6 years in prison. To me, that really doesn't sound like enough.
- [33:06]
C
Yeah. And some of these crimes, no matter how much a person get. It never, never seems like enough when you look at the harm and devastation they leave behind.
- [33:14]
B
I feel like her life was worth more than 28.6 years in prison. I think. I think a life sentence for something like this is appropriate. And I don't understand, you know, but, you know, different states have different laws.
- [33:29]
C
Well, let's move on to Wisconsin. This is not a murder case. We actually got a couple of emails from people asking us about this and to talk about it. This is the latest developments in the ongoing case of the writer and the novelist Neil Gaiman. I'm curious, Anya, did you ever read any of Neil Gaiman's stuff? No, I read some of his stuff. Frankly, it wasn't my cup of tea.
- [33:54]
B
It really doesn't seem like that's. I mean, and that's just your taste. I'm not. I'm not making any sort of judgment call on the art. I just. That sounds like something that you would. That would not be what you typically read.
- [34:08]
C
Yeah, it's not my cup of tea. With that said, a number of people out there, big, devoted fans of his.
- [34:18]
B
I know a lot of people who have loved his work over the years
- [34:20]
C
and they felt a real sense of, for lack of a better word, betrayal and disgust when it came out recently. Some of the things he was doing in his private life. And I don't have that experience with him, but certainly in my life there have been other celebrities whose work I've enjoyed and really even been a big fan of. And then I learned they were not who I thought they were. One example that comes to mind is Bill Cosby. I was a pretty big fan of Bill Cosby. I'm a very old man. So I remember. I remember having his old LPs even before they were released on, in the CD format. I loved his standup. I saw him live. And then it turns out, guess what? He's a horrible human being. Is there anybody that comes to mind for you that you really liked and admired and then it turns out they weren't who you thought?
- [35:23]
B
You know, I'm a. I'm a really good judge of character, so all the celebrities I like are perfect. No, I'm just kidding. No, I mean, definitely. I'm sure. I think even just. I mean, this is a stupid example, but, like, sometimes you read old authors and you're like, wow, I love this guy's work. It's really speaking to me. And then you look them up and then they're like, oh, they made a bunch of anti Semitic comments. Well, that's just great. You know, like, you definitely. I like a lot of like, you know, old timey British authors. So naturally, you know that's gonna happen. But, you know, that's, you know, and then you read that and you're just, oh, that's really disappointing. You definitely get that. And in different, in different phases and it's, it's hard and people debate, can you separate the art from the artist? Can you do that in some cases? Can you? You know, I always thought Kevin Spacey was a good actor and all that stuff came out and it's like, yikes,
- [36:18]
C
you know, so this is the long way of saying I don't feel the betrayal that some people out there feel about Neil Gaiman, but I understand it because I felt it about others. And so I understand the interest in this case and I understand the horror, the things it has been revealed that he was doing in his private life. With that said, I want to talk about what's going on there. I'm going to read a few excerpts from a recent opinion of the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Quote, scarlet Pavlovich is a citizen of New Zealand, although she presently lives in Scotland. Gaiman is a citizen of the United Kingdom, although he presently lives as a lawful permanent resident in Wisconsin. During the relevant time frame, Gaiman, his wife, their young child Ann Pavlovich, lived in New Zealand. Gaiman and his wife kept separate homes near each other on an island about 16 miles from Auckland. Pavlovich first came involved with Gamin's family in 2020 when she met Gaiman's wife. Pavlovich was then 22 years old, economically distressed and intermittently unhoused. During this time, she ran occasional personal errands for Gamon's wife and was only sometimes paid for this work. In early 2022, Gaiman's wife asked Pavlovich to babysit the couple's child at Gaiman's house for a weekend. It was at his home that Pavlovich first met Gamon and he first sexually assaulted her. Gamon's wife formerly hired Pavlovich as a live in nanny in both her and Gaiman's home. Desperate for secure employment and housing, Pavlovich took the job. For weeks she endured repeated brutal assaults by Gamon, which ended only after he left for Scotland three weeks later. After these assaults, Pavlovich became suicidal and sought psychiatric care in New Zealand. She filed a criminal complaint against Gaiman in New Zealand, although she alleges the authorities took no action. On her complaint. Okay, so that is the background. Then. In 2025, Pavlovich sued Gaiman and his wife in Wisconsin under a US Law, and she's seeking money under that act's provisions for a civil remedy. So the first thing I want to make an obvious point. I think one thing we've all come to understand and appreciate is some of the key battles, for lack of a better word, in a trial or in a civil action take place outside the actual courtroom. And one of the big battles can be even something as simple as, where do I file this suit? And in this case, you listened to me there a moment ago, talk about all the different places these people were and where they are now. And it sounds like she decided to file in Wisconsin under U.S. law, partly because Gayment currently lives in Wisconsin, and also partly because that is the law under which she could potentially get the most civil remedies for the damages she says he. He caused her. So Gaiman then says, no, this isn't right. He says, I'm not even sure you can sue me under a US Law for something I allegedly did in another country. And even if you could, it makes more sense for this to be handled by New Zealand, because all the witnesses and all that stuff is in New Zealand. I'm perfectly happy to be sued by New Zealand and have this tried in New Zealand. And the court agreed, said, yeah, do it in New Zealand. And Ms. Pavlovich appealed that and said, no, we should do it in Wisconsin. And that's what prompted this opinion. And first of all, one thing that's always interesting about courts and judges, they're just like us. You know, judges are just like us, which is you always want to do the least amount of work possible. And if it's a situation where, okay, we need to decide whether or not this. This trial, the civil action should be heard in Wisconsin or somewhere. El and one of the possible ways to determine that is to decide whether or not US Law even applies. Well, if we decided on the other one, we don't even have to discuss that. And so in this opinion, they say, well, we're not making a decision, ladies and gentlemen. We're not making a decision. We're not doing it. We're not deciding whether or not this law applies to actions in other countries. We're going to assume for the moment it does, but that's not a formal decision. So they're punting that, and they're making their decision based on this question of where is it most convenient? Where does it most make sense to have this be adjudicated. And they're saying there is a stronger connection to New Zealand. She would get more damages, quite likely in the United States, but she could still get damages in New Zealand. So it's not a question of her not having any remedy there. And they say it's not up to the courts to basically intervene on behalf of whoever's filing the suit and saying, we're going to pick the place the lawsuit should be based on where we think this person could get the most money.
- [42:19]
B
Yeah.
- [42:20]
C
They're saying, no, we're just going to pick a place where there seems to be the most logical connection between what happened and where all the witnesses are. And as long as that person still has remedies available to them, that should be good enough. And so because of that, they're saying, no, the court did not abuse its discretion when it said, let New Zealand handle this. And Gaiman said he's willing. He's not going to contest being sued in New Zealand. He's. He accepts that New Zealand has jurisdiction there. So in essence, it has been dismissed as a US case and will now be tried in New Zealand. This doesn't mean the court is weighing it and saying, well, we think Gayman is innocent or we think Gamon is guilty of sin. They're just saying the forum where this should be decided. It makes more sense for it to be New Zealand. Does that make sense?
- [43:23]
B
It makes sense, yeah. Do you agree with the decision? Do you think it's fair? Do you think. I mean, what do you think?
- [43:30]
C
I always have. I always struggle between my logical side and my emotional side. And my emotional side is this woman was really wronged by him. Let her pick where she wants to sue him and let her pick the place where she can get the most damages possible and make him pay through the nose. That's my emotional side. My logical side recognizes the truth of what the court is saying. It does seem to make more sense for it to be handled by New Zealand. What about you?
- [44:01]
B
When you let the emotional side rule in a case where you feel sympathetic to the victim also, then you can imagine that kind of precedent also happening in cases where someone is abusing the system in order to, you know, get people dragged into lawsuit. So, I mean, it's like, I. That's where I am too. I was like, oh, man, you know, that kind of stinks. But at the same time, that's probably a better way to handle it than going with emotion.
- [44:26]
C
Yeah. And all the witnesses and who would be called all the Discovery, presumably. That would. That would be from news people in New Zealand and documents and such. From New Zealand.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah, it makes sense.
- [44:39]
C
It makes. It makes sense. So this was our special depressing cheat sheet.
- [44:47]
B
They're all kind of depressing. All of them involve murder.
- [44:50]
C
Yeah.
- [44:50]
B
But, yeah, this one definitely was sad. A lot of innocent people harmed and killed and, you know, even a baby. So very sad. But we do talk about murders, so.
- [45:03]
C
But we'll have fun. This weekend, the book fair in Columbus, Ohio, with the Buckeye Buckaroo. Anya Kane. She might.
- [45:13]
B
If any of you. I'm just gonna say this. If any of you call me that at this thing, I will. No, I'm just kidding.
- [45:18]
C
I think you're gonna be bringing your Buck Owens records, maybe your Buck Rogers videos.
- [45:25]
B
I think you just like saying Buck. I think that's what's happening here.
- [45:31]
C
Well, you. You don't like it when anyone else says Buck, because you are the Buckeye Buckaroo. So you see, you hear her? She wants to have.
- [45:39]
B
I dare you to say that to me at this thing. I dare. Some of you guys are coming to this and you say that you don't know what's gonna happen. Things get crazy pretty quick.
- [45:48]
C
And you'd sign a Buck Owens record or Buck.
- [45:51]
B
I don't know. I know what Buck Rogers is. I don't know what Buck Owens is.
- [45:58]
C
Well, you've got a couple of days to train and educate yourself on the.
- [46:03]
B
I'm not gonna educate my. Oh, my. My husband is telling me to educate myself about Buck Owens. I, I, Sir, I've got way too much to do.
- [46:13]
C
And I really wish I could think of something else in pop culture involving somebody named Buck, but. Buck Owens and Buck Rogers?
- [46:21]
B
Bucky Barnes from Captain America.
- [46:23]
C
That's Bucky, but. Yeah, but I guess I defeated Buck to a professional. You're obviously the Buck expert, which is what I would expect from the Buckeye Buckaroo.
- [46:37]
B
I can't believe you're. Nick's coming over to comfort me because of your taunts.
- [46:42]
C
So is that it? Do you have anything else to say?
- [46:46]
B
No, that's it. Well, thank you all for listening, and I hope we can see some of you in Ohio this weekend. But take care. Anything else, Kevin?
- [46:55]
C
So long, Buckeye Buckaroos.
- [46:57]
B
What about Nick? You got anything? No? All right, thank you.
- [47:00]
C
Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime. Please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [47:21]
B
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [47:44]
C
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [47:55]
B
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [48:17]
A
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