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- [00:03]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
A vacation rental shouldn't come with surprises. It should come with verbo Care and 24. 7 Life Support. If the hot tub's broken, that's a verbo care thing.
- [00:09]
Anya Cain
If my teenager starts calling me Leslie,
- [00:11]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
that's a family thing. Leslie. Verbocare and 24. 7 life support. If you know you verbo terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details. And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [00:29]
Anya Cain
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [00:33]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league. Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent. Liberty. Liberty.
- [00:46]
Anya Cain
Liberty.
- [00:47]
Liberty Mutual Spokesperson
Liberty.
- [00:48]
Anya Cain
Hi, I'm Anya. And today we're going to be doing a cheat sheet that will see us going to many different states and covering many different cases. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, as well as the sexual abuse of children.
- [01:04]
Kevin Greenlee
And moments before we started recording, you said to me, Kevin, you said, I want to tell our friends, the dear listeners about premium stuff.
- [01:12]
Anya Cain
Yes, I do. So this is an option for folks, if you are interested. We are offering now Patreon subscriptions at the $5 a month level and Apple subscriptions at the $5 a month level where you will be getting early episodes. So pretty much like kind of sometimes as we make them, you'll be getting them early, you'll be getting ad free listening experience. And as we go forward, we are going to be expanding to offering some more exclusive content to those premium subscribers. Apple is new. We've had the Patreon for a while. It's a really fun community. We do two lives a month on Patreon that we're also likely going to be making accessible to the Apple subscribers as well soon.
- [01:58]
Kevin Greenlee
You have ideas for other.
- [02:00]
Anya Cain
I have a lot of ideas on how we can do this. I think it's fun. It's a fun community. And Apple is there if you prefer that and find that more seamless than Patreon. So we're trying to expand options to meet people where they are and we'll
- [02:13]
Kevin Greenlee
talk more about that at the end of the show. But if you're one of these people saying, oh, they only do four episodes a week, that's. That's not enough. It's good news.
- [02:21]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I thought we're going to be expanding. But anyways, that's that. And now we're off to the cheese. So I'm doing a Texas case and an Indiana case. Our. Our beloved home base of Indiana. What states are you doing?
- [02:34]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm doing Iowa.
- [02:36]
Anya Cain
Okay.
- [02:37]
Kevin Greenlee
And Ohio.
- [02:38]
Anya Cain
All right.
- [02:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Two great Midwestern states. Midland states, if you will. Oh, that. See, that's like a sneak preview of what we're talking about at the end of the show.
- [02:48]
Anya Cain
Oh, my gosh. There you go. All right, let's get to it.
- [02:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Not a very interesting sneak preview. No one's going to be rubbing their chin and saying, hmm, it's not like
- [02:56]
Anya Cain
one of your cornhole antics.
- [02:58]
Kevin Greenlee
We're talking about that later, too.
- [02:59]
Anya Cain
Oh, wow. We're saving a lot. Yeah. Gonna unload a lot on you guys at the end. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:06]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:09]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:11]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [03:17]
Anya Cain
We're the murder sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Referees and riots.
- [04:07]
Kevin Greenlee
Anya has put on her diving cap. She's giving me the thumbs up, so dive right in.
- [04:13]
Anya Cain
I haven't put on any such thing. So this is a case out of Indiana, and just, you know, for everyone, it's a pretty disturbing one. So I would just say be. Be very aware of that as we're going into this first one, because it involves sexual abuse of children. But I think. I think it is important to talk about cases like this, even if it's depressing and horrible, because these predators exist out there, and if we turn a blind eye to them, then we allow them to prey upon vulnerable children in the community. So we should not stick our heads in the sand. We should be confronting this evil firsthand and recognizing the people who confront this evil as part of their jobs. So this is a case of a man named Adrian S. Warren. He was from Williamsport, Indiana. He was born March 15, 1975, and he was doing all sorts of horrific things. I'm going to read from the probable cause affidavit, and we are going to discuss what happened here, how he got caught, and perhaps some things. Want what people can know about predators like these and how they're caught, so that perhaps if you see something, you can act upon it and put away one of these people. Quote. On May 29, 2025, Affiant received a cyber tip made to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children, or ncmec. Which included details of multiple transfers or digital media depicting a variety of sexual acts involving infants, toddlers and prepubescent children, many of which were exchanged via the KICK application. Upon receiving this information, several search warrants were sought and granted. Information obtained from the search warrants revealed that the IP address associated with the accounts transferring the child sex abuse material belonged to a Comcast account located on Monroe street in Williamsport, Indiana. Data received from KIK identified over a thousand image and video files contained within the various KIK accounts associated with the Williamsport IP address, most of which were child sexual abuse material depicting acts of vaginal, anal and oral intercourse involving infants, toddlers and prepubescent females. Some of these files were AI generated and some were not. Among the videos provided by KIK was a video file Created on 11-24-2024 at 07:12pm by user account after dark705 where over 500 images were located, many of which are child sexual abuse material. And then it proceeds to describe that file. I'm not going to go into too much detail but one I will describe some of the non horrifying and graphic elements of it. The image or the video rather shows a heavyset white male, he's in a dark baseball cap, white lettering, dark T shirt. The room's walls are dark white and dark spotted. And he looks at the camera and says the date 11-24-2024. And then other videos in the series depict that guy, that same male. And they, they identified this person as Adrian Warren. And there was also a 11-22-2024 video that or rather after dark 705 shared a video with another user and a horror, you know, just horrifying things happening to infants and children. I'm not going to get into the specifics, but suffice to say the stuff of absolute nightmares and just completely evil abuse of, of babies, of toddlers, of children. And you know this is, this is what people, you know, this is what these child predators do, right? They get online and they're sharing videos with other child predators and it's a whole ecosystem, it's a whole culture of trading these. In order to infiltrate it, you have to be sharing them. And you know, there's that kind of side of it. Also this After Dark705 account was found to be in a number of group chats and chat with different, presumably other predators talking about getting, you know, basically abusing this person's, one of their young female relatives, abusing a 7 year old, abusing a neighbor, a child who is his neighbor at one point saying, quote, it wasn't all that interesting. She had a bad home life, gave her a place to hang out, took it slow. So he's talking about the abuse of a child, the sexual abuse of a child. He talked about, I don't, I mean, kind of briefly, about trying to make it legal to, for adults to have sex with children. You know, I imagine that is a goal for many of these child sexual, you know, abusers and shared information about, you know, this situation with the neighbor said that was about 10 years ago. And talking about, oh, you know, I, I don't have any young female relatives around anymore. They're all older. So, yeah, so this guy was busted and he was, he was brought in and he actually, he's, you know, he's 50. I mean, he's 51 years old. He pled guilty and was sentenced on April 2, 2026. I mean, they caught him dead to rights, obviously. I mean, does that surprise you that he pled?
- [10:31]
Kevin Greenlee
No, absolutely not.
- [10:32]
Anya Cain
Yeah. So he pled to multiple felony charges, child exploit. Four counts of child exploitation, a level four felony. Five counts of possession of child sex abuse material, a level five felony in total. And this is great News. He got 60 years in the Indiana Department of Correction. Ten years of those are suspended to probation. But 50 years, and he is 50. So one can only hope that this man will perish in prison before he has the chance to continue to victimize other children.
- [11:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Absolutely.
- [11:09]
Anya Cain
You know, I don't really have any sympathy for people like this at all. I mean, I don't. Maybe that's a controversial view. I, I think I would imagine a lot of people agree with me on some level. I just think that anyone who's doing stuff like this to children is just irredeemable. And I don't want them in society anymore. And I don't, I don't find that controversial. I think there's a lot of crimes that I really don't think makes you a monster. I really don't. And maybe I would prefer for prisons to be more of a place of rehabilitation and healing and, and not, you know, not making people worse or being better criminals. I'd rather it be something that actually can be productive and help them rehabilitate to society and be safe people to be around and be not doing crimes, but I don't. With stuff like this, the, the prolifera. I mean, just the, the callousness and just disgustingness with, with which he speaks about children is just, it's like, no, there's Something, something deeply wrong here. It's just not. We don't need this. Now. One thing that is kind of interesting to some of you who follow the show, the affiant for this, and I'm assuming the lead detective for this was actually none other than somebody that you've heard on, heard about on the show before. It's actually Detective David Vito from the Indiana State Police, who of course worked on the Kegan Klein case, that was a child sexual abuse predator out of Peru, Indiana, who manipulated many, many young girls into passing on child sexual abuse materials to him. And also Detective Vito worked on the Delphi murders case. So this is another instance of him, you know, working to protect children in Indiana. And cases like this, I imagine, are very, very difficult for detectives to work. And I think people who are in the system, whether they're prosecutors or detectives, really deserve an immense amount of credit for working these cases and ensuring that these people go away for a long time. The Warren county prosecutor on this was also Bonnie J. Adams. So I just think I, I like to see cases like this happen, not because I want these crimes to happen, but because I know these crimes do happen. And it's good to see people decades on this. So that's what happened in Indiana. Now I think we can go down to Texas.
- [13:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Take us to Texas, the Lone Star State.
- [13:43]
Anya Cain
We're going to go to Texas. We're going to go to Austin, Texas. And specifically this is, of course, Austin is in Travis County, Texas. We're going to talk about a situation involving the District Attorney down there, Jose Garza. And that's something we've covered in the past. I know we've, we've had on, you know, we've covered the, the murder of Anita Byington, talked to Anita's cousin, Christina, talked to the Innocence Project of Texas, kind of got different viewpoints on that case. That's a case where, you know, what happened was. I mean, basically there's all these. Anita Byington was a, you know, beautiful young woman who was brutally murdered. Years later. The Travis County District Attorney's office sort of said, well, we think the wrong guy was imprisoned over that. I mean, I would encourage people, if you're interested, go back and listen to those episodes. You're going to get all the details. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I know Christina felt very, very just ill, used and betrayed by the District Attorney's office because I think there was just a sense from her. What she told us was, you know, one minute you're saying this guy is guilty, but now you're, now, now you're saying he's not. And the Innocence Project is involved and the DA's office is working with them. And it was announced to her in a way that was very like an afterthought. So there's a lot of hurt over that. And I think DA Garza has gotten, you know, he has gotten criticized from that I've seen from victims families in certain situations. And so if you work in university
- [15:17]
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- [15:46]
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- [16:47]
Anya Cain
The other side of the criticism towards DA Garza that I've seen has been in his relationship with police officers in Austin and the law enforcement side of things. There was a previous cheat sheet where I did an episode. I mean, I probably could have done its own spin off, but there was an awesome police officer named Christopher Taylor where he, you know, The Travis County DA's office actually got a conviction of him for shooting a gentleman named Dr. Maurice Da Silva who was having a mental health episode. And what happened was the, you know, the Officer Taylor was in an elevator with a number of other law enforcement personnel. And they go up and they immediately see Dr. Da Silva with a knife. And there's like a kind of a split second choice. And Taylor shoots him and that was over. So he got a conviction that was overruled by a higher court saying like, they did not meet the standard that you would, you would need for this. And it's like, you know, cases like this are difficult, right, because, you know, you're asking people to do a job that's very difficult. And it also does require a lot of split second decisions. Then again, it's really important to hold police officers accountable so that they're not inflicting harm on the community that's unnecessary or unlawful. You want to be looking at, I think what I look at when I see a case involving questions about an officer's conduct and whether or not it becomes a crime versus part of their job. I look at are they following their training, are they following the law? Those are the two big questions. If you're following the law, you know, that's good training. I think that gets into like, whether you could be like, you know, negligent or like, you know, what you're doing is technically not illegal, but it's so irresponsible and like crazy that, you know, you should know better and you've been trained not to do that. Then I also think that is important. And I think that's, I mean, again, I think this stuff gets very heated. I think it gets unfortunately politicized. I don't think that. I think everybody of all political stripes should want police officers who are safe, effective, and making lawful and well trained and informed choices. Right?
- [19:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Absolutely.
- [19:20]
Anya Cain
I don't like that. It's like one side's, oh, we're just going to back the cops. And one side's like, we're never going to back the cops. It's just like, why don't we just, like, let's just, let's just not like be some weird binary thinkers and let's actually just assess things on an individual basis. But, you know, I, I have seen these cases with the Travis County DA's office where I honestly felt that, that Christopher Taylor case, I looked into it, you know, with some considerable depth, I felt. And I don't understand why they brought those charges. I still don't like. And there may have been very good intentions or reasons for that, but frankly, it felt very thin to me. And I just, I question it because obviously you don't want to be just basically Monday morning quarterback backing an officer who made a difficult decision in a split second over a safety concern. And Then basically kind of making an example out of them in order to kind of get political points. You don't even want the perception of doing that, even if that's not what you're trying to do.
- [20:31]
Kevin Greenlee
Right.
- [20:33]
Anya Cain
And to me, I'm not saying that's what it was, but I am saying that it concerned me. You know, it just didn't seem. And again, I think I was adamant in that episode. The death of Dr. Da Silva is an utter tragedy. He was a very accomplished man. Seemed like a really nice guy. People loved him. He was an accomplished scientist. I mean, a brilliant person who struggled with mental health. You know, he doesn't deserve what happened to him. It's a tragedy that he was killed by Officer Taylor, but sometimes things can be complicated and things can be in a situation where it's like, yeah, no one. No one wanted this outcome. But is. Is it murder? Is it manslaughter? Or is our society failing people who have mental health crises to the extent that then basically the officers are called to come and clean it up, and then we get mad at them when somebody pulls a knife and someone ends up dead. To me, it's like we're kind of forfeiting. Forfeiting our duty as a society to take care of people like Dr. De Silva and help them. Help them deal with whatever mental illness they're having or whatever issue or crisis they're going through. Help them deal with that and don't make it a legal matter. We can be proactive rather than reactive, but that's just my take. What's going on now is not about a death. It is about more of a. An injury. And it's kind of like. It's just it. To me, it's interesting because it seems to be indicating some kind of, like, level of distrust between The Travis County DA's Office and Law enforcement, which, I mean, I'm just curious, what do you think about that, when there is that kind of. Kind of dis, I guess, divide between the prosecutors in a city and the police force, law enforcement community?
- [22:18]
Kevin Greenlee
Obviously, it's not a good sign. There's always, or at least there's frequently some tension between the two groups because sometimes, sometimes police officers feel that prosecutors aren't bringing charges in enough cases, and sometimes prosecutors feel that the detectives aren't doing as much work or doing as much investigation as they should. So it's not unusual to see some tensions, but to this level is certainly disheartening.
- [22:47]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And it doesn't. You know, it's. It's very Unfortunate, because ultimately it doesn't serve anybody. And I think it leads to bad things. I think, you know, and you can see both sides of it in a way, because on the one hand, you can see instances where perhaps, you know, there is a law enforcement body that is in need of reform, and you might have a crusading DA Come in and say, we're going to clean this up. And people may not like that. They may react poorly to it. That doesn't mean that DA Is wrong. You also could see, I think, situations where it's like, you know, bad things happen and the D A feels they need a scapegoat or to kind of score political points. They go after weak cases against officers to kind of say, look, I'm. I'm a reformer, you know, and I. I kind of leave it up to people, you know, what they think. But so this goes back to May 31, 2020, and people may remember in, you know, there were that summer a number of protests that occurred throughout the country over the murder of George Floyd. And there were instances where protests were very peaceful, well ordered, people kind of making their concerns heard. And then there were instances where those protests turned into straight up riots and got violent and led to a lot of, you know, injuries, property destruction, what have you. So in Austin on May 29, there were protesters around the Austin Police Department's 8th Street, 8th street headquarters. And so, you know, my understanding from just reading about this case bit is that those start out very peacefully and those protests continue, though as they continued, perhaps things became more agitated, things became more violent, and maybe more of went from a protest to a riot. So what the officer at the heart of this is named officer Chance Breches. And what he's looking at or what rather he's charged with is I think the date itself was May 31, 2020. He fires a non lethal round. I think there were like. Or maybe not. Maybe not non lethal. Maybe the word is less lethal. And these are sort of beanbag munitions that he fires. These are department issued. And he fires them in response to some of this violence, according to him. And a woman who I guess identified as a street medic, was hit and was injured and apparently sustained pretty severe injuries to her hand. And so, yeah, so he's charged with that. So a number of charges, aggravated assault being kind of one of them. And what his defense team is saying is like, the munitions were defective. That was what caused the more severe injuries. He was acting according to his training. He was acting under supervision. He should not be penalized for this. And, of course, I mean. And he is actually still with the Austin police department. He's not been fired. But with the Travis county district attorney's office, they're saying it was a crime. It was aggravated assault. And now there's been claims that this is politically motivated. And not only that, but the district attorney, basically, there are claims that the district attorney has hidden evidence in the case. So what. How do we analyze that? Cause obviously, in a case like this where it's so heated, you know, people are gonna be making claims. And I think it's important to look at it, you know, you know, with so. With some. With some thoughtfulness. And so I guess this is something where. What the claim is from Brech's, you know, defense team is that Jose Garza, the DA Held negotiation with city leaders, basically talking about whether or not they could actually hold the city of Austin criminally liable for injuries to protesters instead of the individual officers. And that prosecutors basically identified Austin itself as the alternate suspect, but never disclosed that because doing so would obviously undermine the case against bretches. If you're saying actually it's the city of Austin's fault for, I don't know, maybe the faulty munitions or the faulty training or. I don't know. But, you know, there was a hearing for this, and judge Karen Sage was. Was hearing about hearing it in. So that was May 4, 2026. And what. What she's held so far is that basically what. What the defense team was asking for was a court of inquiry. So that would have been, like, a criminal investigation into the. The d. A. Himself and his team. So they said that the. They did not have enough information to do that. But she also ruled that it's not clear to her at this point whether or not prosecutors actually did turn over this information that was favorable to bretches and that could hypothetically prompt her to dismiss the case. Does that make sense?
- [28:54]
Kevin Greenlee
That makes sense now.
- [28:57]
Anya Cain
So what she's asking for now is like, basically, give me timelines on what the flow of the evidence is over the years. I mean, it's been six years, right? So it's a lot. And give me that information, and I will look at that. So, you know, the person who is representing Chance Breches is Doug o'. Connell. He's saying that Garza broke the law here. And it sounds like the court's like, we're not quite there. But I do want to know more about what the timeline is, and let's look at this carefully. And, you know, and also, the judge also Noted that, you know, even if the ammunition was defective, you know, the officer could still face liability for firing it, you know?
- [29:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, absolutely.
- [29:50]
Anya Cain
Like, it could be. It could be defective, and you shouldn't have fired it, you know, so that's one thing. If the. If. If the. If the prosecutors are on some level acknowledging that the city would be at fault, somehow the officer sounds like could still be at fault. Yeah. So this is just. I do think, though, this is interesting that it's. It's gotten very political. It's gotten very heated. Without really knowing much more about the absolute circumstances of, you know, this situation. I. I hesitate to really sort of say, oh, it's unfair for branches to be prosecuted, because obviously, like, there can be a lot of factors in that. I will say, though, that there have been 19 Austin Police Department officers indicted for things like, you know, excessive force, you know, often due to injuries to protesters. And of those, my understanding from. From reading media reports is that 17 of those have been dismissed. That's not a very promising track record. There's also been kind of criticism over. And we talked about this in the Taylor case, there have been, like, situations where, you know, two police officers are pretty much doing the same thing. One's offered a deal, and basically it's like, you know, charges dropped, and then the other one isn't. And it just. To me, it seems kind of like a mess from the outside. I don't know. What do you think? Do you think? Do you. I mean, from what I've said, I don't want to just dismiss any attempts to reform police. And obviously, there can be bad things police do during protests that aren't right and, you know, maybe require better training or maybe in some cases, do require charges being filed or people being fired or what have you. But then it just. It seems like this. There's been a lot of attempts to do stuff here, and it's like, if, like, 17 of these are getting thrown out, it's like, I don't know. It just doesn't really sit right with me.
- [32:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, we'll have to keep an eye on it and see what comes out in the court hearings.
- [32:11]
Anya Cain
Mm. I'll be curious. So now I think we're doing your cases.
- [32:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Let's do my cases. So my first case is out of Iowa, and my source for this was an opinion from the Iowa Supreme Court, and I want to. I find it interesting, Anya, to look at murder cases. As we both know, it's pretty rare for cases to be just thrown out entirely. A murder case, a murder conviction to be thrown out. So I think it's interesting, and hopefully you think it's interesting, too, to look at instances where courts are asked to throw, throw out verdicts and throw out trials and look at the reasons why and see what the judges came down on. And so with that in mind, I will tell you about the case of a man named James Wiggins. I don't think we need to go into all the nitty gritty of the actual crime, but I'll just give you the very, very basics. It was some kind of an altercation at a bar. He says it was self defense, that the person he ended up shooting pulled a gun on him. He testifies to that. The jury ultimately, I guess, didn't find him credible because they convicted him. He got a pretty long sentence. So what his attorneys are saying now is when he got up to testify, the judge said in open court in front of the jury, you know, we have a policy in this court. I'm paraphrasing. He said, we have a policy in this court that when someone who is in custody testifies, we have an armed guard behind him. And, you know, he's going to be just three feet away from the jury box, so we need to have an armed guard there. And what Mr. Wiggins is saying through his attorneys is that by doing that, by suddenly saying, hey, guys, we don't trust this guy being so close to you, that the state is basically putting its finger on the scale and saying, maybe you shouldn't believe this guy because personally, we think he's dangerous.
- [34:41]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [34:42]
Kevin Greenlee
So I, I'm curious, Anya, I don't know if you read ahead in my notes to see what the ruling was, but I'm curious. What are your thoughts?
- [34:50]
Anya Cain
That sounds pretty bad. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, I'm sympathetic with the idea that, like, you do need to keep safety in, in a court. I mean, like, safety is a concern.
- [35:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [35:02]
Anya Cain
Maybe, like it could have been done in a more tactful way or in a way that didn't require the judge to be, like, making a big announcement.
- [35:10]
Kevin Greenlee
It kind of does prejudice the jury when you do it that way.
- [35:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [35:15]
Kevin Greenlee
I think especially, especially when the whole, the whole case to some extent revolves around whether or not you think this man is credible.
- [35:25]
Anya Cain
Right. And like, you know, he might grab you guys. Like, that's not what they're saying. But, like, you know, watch out, like, he's coming, he's coming at you. I, that, that concerns me, and I do feel like that does prejudice things. I mean, yeah.
- [35:39]
Kevin Greenlee
I'll tell you, it was thrown out. Yeah, the court threw it out.
- [35:41]
Anya Cain
It doesn't surprise me.
- [35:42]
Kevin Greenlee
And they said, we know it would have been different if, you know, this guy had made some threats. And there was a reason why we need to have guards just for this guy because of what he did.
- [35:54]
Anya Cain
But why not just get an extra guard and have it be there for everybody so it just doesn't look different? I mean, like, is that. Is that kind of choreography so hard? I don't know. Maybe. I mean, maybe the overtime problems or whatever, but I think you gotta kind of work around it.
- [36:09]
Kevin Greenlee
And also just mentioning, oh, this guy's in custody. The listeners of this program are sophisticated enough to know that people on trial for serious crimes are, in fact, in custody. But some people who show up and get seated on juries may not realize that. And to those people, knowing that a person in custody, that might prejudice them. And that's one of the reasons why we don't have people on trial in front of juries wearing prison outfits or, like, shackled.
- [36:39]
Anya Cain
You know, I mean, it's. It's. I think you have to just be cautious. I'm a bit surprised that the judge made this kind of spiel. Now, here's the thing. Had. Had the scenario you outlined been like, oh, they had a deputy near him while he was testifying, but no one else. I'd be like, and that was it. And there was no statement made about it. I'd be like, yeah, that is problematic. But they do have. If they are concerned and if this guy is, like, a hothead or whatever, and that's the whole case, then maybe I'm a little bit more sympathetic with the state in that matter or with the court in that matter, because, like, you do have to keep people safe. But making a whole big deal of, like, yeah, we're gonna have a guard. Don't worry, guys. We're not gonna let him come at you. I mean, like, again, he didn't say it quite that ridicul, but, you know, I just. I do think that violates the guy's rights.
- [37:27]
Kevin Greenlee
There's a line in here. Quote, the stationing of a uniformed officer next to a defendant as he testifies is the kind of government action that constitutes an unmistakable indication of the need to separate a defendant from the community at large. I agree with that. It sends a very clear message.
- [37:46]
Anya Cain
What do you think about just having a guy if, like, you're concerned about the defendant? Just have a guy, like, with every witness, though, and, like, he's really there for the one guy. But like, just, you know, it doesn't look any different then that works.
- [37:58]
Kevin Greenlee
It also works. Think about in the Delphi case, Richard Allen. There were guards in the courtroom and they were dressed very unobtrusively. They were dressed in suits and ties.
- [38:13]
Anya Cain
Yeah, yeah, I, yes, I do remember that. And they, you know, they, it was, it was a lot more chill and you know, I'm sure, I'm sure sometimes, you know, like, as we say, sophisticated people who know a trial's work, they know there's not just a bunch of suited men hanging out, you know, but, but, you know, here's another thing.
- [38:32]
Kevin Greenlee
They, they say, quote, security officers posted generally throughout the courtroom invite many innocent inferences that they are there to prevent disruption from the gallery, to keep tensions from boiling over, and to provide ordinary security. But a deputy who appears behind the witness box only when the defendant takes the stand sheds those alternative explanations. That is true. It just makes it very clear to one and all, this guy who's about to testify and tell you the story upon which his life depends, we don't trust him. We think he's dangerous. We think he might hurt you. I, yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. I, I feel bad for the people involved to have to go through a trial again. But I find this troubling.
- [39:20]
Anya Cain
I do too. It stings when it, it stinks when you have to redo it. And on some level it's like, you know, I mean, the, like, did it make that much of a difference? Who knows? But it's, it's not, it's, it's, you can't necessarily measure that and you have to, I think, just kind of be, maybe assume that it, that it is a problem and you just don't want to violate people's rights even if they're guilty. Yeah, it's frustrating because you're just like, yeah, I mean, it sounds like the jury didn't find him credible. It sounds like he very well may be guilty. It's just that you have to do it things in the right way. It's really incumbent on everyone to do things in the right way because we're talking about people's lives here. It's not a casual loss, you know, it's a loss of liberty. And that has to be done correctly.
- [40:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, the government has the power to take away our liberty and incarcerate us and even execute us. That is a pretty awesome power. It is absolutely crucial that that power be operated openly and that it be operated in an above board way that is fair to everyone. And I'm not. I don't feel this was fair to this man, Mr. Wiggins. So I agree with this opinion that overturned his murder conviction, even though I don't like the idea of overturning murder convictions. Obviously. And none of us do.
- [40:42]
Anya Cain
Well said, Kevin.
- [40:43]
Kevin Greenlee
What do you think?
- [40:44]
Anya Cain
I concur.
- [40:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, you concur with my analysis? I do now. You know, Anya, there's a lot of talk being bandied about you and I having a cornhole. A cornhole showdown.
- [41:01]
Anya Cain
Okay.
- [41:02]
Kevin Greenlee
And a nice listener. I think we owe her a message. Even said we can do it at her home.
- [41:10]
Anya Cain
We're just going to show up. We're not even going to tell her when we're coming. She's going to show up because I
- [41:14]
Kevin Greenlee
think a lot of people are concerned that passions and the excitement would rise to such a fevered pitch that it might result in some sort of untoward incident.
- [41:27]
Anya Cain
What?
- [41:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Especially among your fans.
- [41:30]
Anya Cain
Oh, like the Anya people will ride against the Kevin people or something?
- [41:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. After I defeat you.
- [41:35]
Anya Cain
Oh, I see. That's interesting.
- [41:38]
Kevin Greenlee
And with that in mind, there is this case in Ohio, which is, you like to remind me, is the Buckeye State.
- [41:45]
Anya Cain
I do like to remind you of that. Every day when we wake up, I just say, remember the Buckeye State. Remember Ohio?
- [41:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. You're a very odd person in many respects. My source for this is News 5, Cleveland. And there was some sort of flag football game and somebody was upset about some sort of call made by a referee. The guy that was upset was Timothy Ruble. And so this guy tries to kill the referee by running him over with his car.
- [42:22]
Anya Cain
What, over a flag?
- [42:24]
Kevin Greenlee
I mean, over a flag football game. The guy is. Is alive, so he'll be okay. I certainly don't mean to make light of it, but it's. It's. How stupid to potentially throw away your life or forever alter your life by being sent to prison over a dispute over a flag football game?
- [42:51]
Anya Cain
Like, was it one of the players or like, was it a child's league or what? What the heck happened here?
- [42:59]
Kevin Greenlee
That's unclear to me. I'll tell you. The person who ran the guy down was 19 years old.
- [43:08]
Anya Cain
And.
- [43:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [43:10]
Anya Cain
So the 19 year old was the attempted murderer.
- [43:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And the victim, man named Brian Williams. Again, he's in critical condition. These are adult flag football games. A player became upset over a call. And you're getting more and more into sports. But I think.
- [43:28]
Anya Cain
I mean, I was a jock in high school. I was a swimmer. I'm not like just getting into sports. I was the captain of the team.
- [43:38]
Kevin Greenlee
You're really.
- [43:38]
Anya Cain
I'm getting into sports people care about.
- [43:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. You're becoming a football head.
- [43:44]
Anya Cain
I'm not becoming. No, I'm not. What. Would you stop saying bizarre things for like two minutes? Would that be okay? No, I, I just, I like IU football now. I'm loyal to, to that program. I salute them. And, and that's it. It's not, I'm not, I'm not going nuts here.
- [44:03]
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- [44:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Every morning you shake me awake, say, kevin, it's the Buckeye State. And then you hop out of bed and you salute an IU flag.
- [44:42]
Anya Cain
Not, does not happen. But like, I, I, I can't imagine. I actually used to referee soccer as a teenager. That was a terrifying job. Parents can be very mean. People get way too in this, into this stuff, and it's like, yeah, I know I'm not that good of a referee. I'm trying my best. I'm really, I'm a very awkward 16 year old. Like, I, I, it's one of those things, though. Like, I, like, I can't imagine even having seen some of that parental behavior up close where people do yell at you or they make mean comments or whatever. I'm not trying to excuse that. I don't think that's appropriate at all. And I think it teaches kids a pretty bad lesson. But I can understand, like, losing your temper and maybe saying something unkind. I don't understand losing your temper to the point where you want to kill somebody over something like that.
- [45:29]
Kevin Greenlee
It's just a game.
- [45:31]
Anya Cain
It's just a game.
- [45:32]
Kevin Greenlee
It's a fun game. It's good to care about the game. But your life and your continued freedom is more important. And people should remember that.
- [45:44]
Anya Cain
I think, I mean, the fact that he's 19. I'm not trying to make excuses, but obviously, like, you know, pretty young, but I think at a certain point, you know, I think men in particular really need to, like, there's a lot of men with some pretty serious anger issues that are just not being dealt with by them or by those around them. And it's like you, the best thing you can do for, I think your son or, you know, a young man in your life is to, you know, if they have that kind of explosive temper or personality is helping them deal with that in a way that doesn't prompt them to totally wreck their lives over something so stupid.
- [46:27]
Kevin Greenlee
So do you think it would be better for us to do cornhole in the fevered, high intensity atmosphere of a baggers town? Or do you think there would be violence from your supporters and that we should instead do it at someone's private residence and maybe just record it and post it?
- [46:49]
Anya Cain
I think the stereotyping of the Anya supporters is disgusting and should stop immediately. That's what I think. How dare you?
- [46:57]
Kevin Greenlee
I. I think you, I think your supporters, they'd all start getting sassy. They'd get sassy with each other, they'd see your performance and they would just fall apart into acrimony. That's my prediction.
- [47:12]
Anya Cain
I think you're besmirching an honorable group of people. Honorable group of concerned citizens. I think you're going too far and I think you're going to just turn everyone against you. I think some of the Kevin supporters will be disgusted by this. No, Anya's not sitting around disparaging the Kevin supporters. I tip my hat to them. You know, they can do what they want. They're adults. They can make their own choices.
- [47:35]
Kevin Greenlee
How can you not tip your hat to the Kevin supporters? Because remember, I looked up the demographics and it said people who believe I'm going to win the cornhole game are right thinking Americans of every race, creed and color. That's the demographics. Yeah. You have to tip your hat to them.
- [47:52]
Anya Cain
And who are the Anya supporters?
- [47:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, let's not go into that.
- [48:00]
Anya Cain
I think, I think there's been some appalling statements made on today's murder sheet and I do, I do apologize for all listeners who were offended. I don't know what's happening over here.
- [48:12]
Kevin Greenlee
We are going to do this cornhole thing, right?
- [48:14]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Somebody was like, come to my cornhole patch. And we said, sure. And, and yeah, we replied. I did. Yeah. I was like, heck, yeah.
- [48:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay.
- [48:22]
Anya Cain
And now, you know, now this person's gonna have to live in fear of us just showing up at their house with a bunch of beanbags. That's not what anyone wants to deal with, but unfortunately that is what they signed up for.
- [48:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Anya Cain
So sorry to that person.
- [48:37]
Kevin Greenlee
And if we do that, we'll record it and post it somewhere.
- [48:39]
Anya Cain
I don't know if we'll record the whole thing.
- [48:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, well, because you'd be embarrassed if people see how badly you do. I understand that. If you'd rather.
- [48:48]
Anya Cain
You're really setting yourself up for a
- [48:50]
Kevin Greenlee
fall, you'd be like Nixon and there'd be like an 18 and a half minute gap when it's your turn to throw the beanbags. So I understand that. I understand that. If I were in your position, I'd want to do the same thing. You're.
- [49:04]
Anya Cain
You. You are out of control. You're besmerging me and my supporters. Totally not. Not collegial at all. Just absolutely the state of the state of you today on this episode.
- [49:17]
Kevin Greenlee
But I talked about potentially posting it somewhere. You said you wanted to talk a little bit more about premium stuff.
- [49:23]
Anya Cain
Oh, I mean, I don't know. I kind of said most of it. I mean, I'm gonna listen. Like, I mean, it really helps us. We appreciate everyone who subscribes to the Patreon. It really kind of helps us a lot and helps support the show, keeps it going. So. Love you guys. I think some people, you know, they may not like Patreon. They might actually just make a lateral switch to Apple Podcast. So I'm kind of announcing it for. For them too, so they can kind of like make a choice on what they prefer. Patreon. The benefit is you can go to the Lives in person. I don't really know how we'd have people go to the Lives on Apple, but you could still listen to them afterwards. And I guess the other thing is we're kind of in a position where we're trying to explore some options that we could give to subscribers exclusively.
- [50:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Let me ask you this, Anya, if I'm one of our dear friends, the listeners, and there's something. Oh, I'd like to see this. Do I just keep that to myself?
- [50:19]
Anya Cain
Yeah, don't tell us.
- [50:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Or can I.
- [50:21]
Anya Cain
Can I let you know, you know, just keep that to you? Yeah. Mind your own business. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, definitely stifle it. We get. We get enough feedback. No, you can email us.
- [50:37]
Kevin Greenlee
That's so funny.
- [50:38]
Anya Cain
You can email us@murdersheetmail.com and, you know, it's like, just like, what would be like. Because honestly, like, it's very important to me to keep all effectively of the case coverage in front of the paywall so everyone can listen. So we'd be wanting to do other things behind it, but not deprive anyone of any coverage of any case.
- [50:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Right.
- [50:59]
Anya Cain
So that's kind of what the balance is. So we're looking for some creative ideas. We have some ourselves and, you know, just offering some cool features for people who might want to subscribe and might enjoy that, but without forcing everyone to do so, because, again, it's very, very important for. I feel like us to keep our reporting and analysis as accessible as possible to everybody.
- [51:22]
Kevin Greenlee
But speaking of our reporting and analysis, our book Shadow of the Bridge, got an honorable mention from the Midland Authors Society.
- [51:31]
Anya Cain
That's right.
- [51:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Which is an organization. Ring Larder, one of my favorite writers, was involved with this organization back, you know, when he was actually alive. When he passed away, after he died,
- [51:43]
Anya Cain
he didn't come back as a ghost.
- [51:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, after he died, he cut off his ties to the organization along with
- [51:49]
Anya Cain
everything else, I guess. You love Ring. He's always talking about Ring.
- [51:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Always talking about Ring Larner. But, yeah, so we. We got the award and we drove up to Chicago.
- [51:58]
Anya Cain
Well, we got. We got an honorable mention. We didn't get the award, but we
- [52:02]
Kevin Greenlee
were very honored to be mentioned.
- [52:04]
Anya Cain
Yes.
- [52:05]
Kevin Greenlee
And there's a big dinner, and you get free food if you're an honorable mention. And Anya said, sign me up.
- [52:11]
Anya Cain
Get me in there.
- [52:12]
Kevin Greenlee
And on the way up to Chicago, the other day, we stopped at Delphi. That's always fun.
- [52:17]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I love Delphi. We did swing by Delphi. That was fun. Always nice to. Nice to see people there. Nice to see the town. And we. Yeah. Then we headed up to Chicago. I love Chicago. I think it's a wonderful city.
- [52:30]
Kevin Greenlee
We should spend more time there. Basically, we drove up there, we went to this event, and then we came home. So we didn't do anything fun other
- [52:37]
Anya Cain
than, well, the event was fun. It was fun. I humiliated myself at this event, by the way. I'm still thinking about this. This is one of those things I'm gonna think about for a long time. So I always, you know, like, there's some wonderful podcasts out there. Immense, immensely wonderful podcasts. I listen to, podcasts I enjoy. We try to be a good podcast that adds something to people's lives. But sometimes podcasting, I feel kind of has a bad rep because you have bad actors, especially in the true crime space. And they kind of make us all sound like lunatics. So, you know, you're like, hi, I have a podcast, and, oh, like, you know, what do these fancy authors think of us? But everyone was super nice. But I. I really. I was so embarrassed. I. We were talking with people and, like, I want to show them, you know, we're intellectuals, you Know, like, we were
- [53:25]
Kevin Greenlee
with, at our table, there were some
- [53:28]
Anya Cain
very learned, very learned men and women,
- [53:30]
Kevin Greenlee
very, very brilliant people, very kind people.
- [53:33]
Anya Cain
But, you know, I'm like, you know, we're not, we're not just, you know, like, we're not just like saying, you know, like, weird stuff all day. Like, we, we talk about some historical cases. So I'm trying to, trying to sound fancy to these people, and I say, well, we, we did. Not long ago, we talked to a really wonderful author named C.W. goodyear. And also this is a, this is a president from Ohio, right? So it's a, it's a, it's a Midwestern thing. We, we talked to C.W. goodyear, wonderful author, about the assassination of Andrew Garfield.
- [54:05]
Kevin Greenlee
And I, I said, no, Anya, that was James Garfield.
- [54:08]
Anya Cain
They got Spider man, folks. Yeah, I think I just turned bright red and then evaporated into dust at that point. The people across the table were like, Andrew. I was like, oh, no, he's okay. Sorry, he, he's fine. Oh my gosh. I mean, loved him in silence. But, yeah, that was, that was, that was not my finest hour of talking to people. This is what happened. Like, I talked to Kevin all day. I don't really talk to anybody. I talk at you guys. You're a captive audience. You, you're not talking back to me, you know, and if I make a really egregious mistake about a well regarded actor, I can just edit it out. But I'm talk, I get out there, I'm talking to people, I'm in Chicago, I just forget how to talk. It's just, oh, man. But, yeah, so that will haunt my dreams forever. But other than that, it was great. Everyone was really nice and we got to talk to some really cool authors. And it was really a little bit inspiring to me because it was something. First of all, having our work recognized by these people that I'm so impressed with meant a lot. And second of all, it was a situation where it's really nice to see. Sometimes I kind of feel like we're like living in kind of an increasingly post literate society where everyone's just getting their information from like TikTok, and seeing people putting the effort into writing books and, you know, writing books for children, for adults, nonfiction, fiction, putting work into their art and being celebrated for that was really inspiring and really nice to see. And I would just encourage everybody. You know, I think if you want to do something, I, I. So I used to read all, I used to read prolifically because I had a commute that Would. I'd be on the train going into New York City, and then I'd be on the subway. And that was when I did a lot of my reading. And then I kind of stopped that for a while. I think, like, for me, though, getting back into reading has been one of the singular joys recently in my life because it just. It's so. I mean, I just feel myself becoming less. Less scattered and more focused and more, you know, like, it, it's just expands your mind in such a way. So if anyone's, like, kind of looking for one thing they can do, I think to improve your life is just read more. Like, find the time and do it. It's hard to find the time. I, I, I know, but I would just encourage people if you're in my. I remember I was miserable not reading, and then I got back into it, and then I went to this thing, and I was just like, oh, this is so nice to see. So that's just some, Some advice that I found helpful.
- [56:42]
Kevin Greenlee
And the last thing I'll say is this place, they had on the wall a head of an animal that was killed by Teddy Roosevelt. You remember that?
- [56:54]
Anya Cain
Yeah. What. What was that? Like, kind of like an ox or something?
- [56:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Something like that.
- [56:58]
Anya Cain
Ox. I don't know what he was doing, but, yeah, it was in the Cliff Dwellers Club, which was awesome.
- [57:03]
Kevin Greenlee
Very nice man told me. That is weirdly.
- [57:05]
Anya Cain
Yeah, he was super nice and, and just everyone was nice, and I was just, Congratulations to all the winners and to all the honorees and thanks to the judges. Again, that recognition meant the world to us. And I will say, it was really cool to see the sunset or we kind of were there in the evening, and watching Lake Michigan turn different colors was really beautiful. So it was a really special evening, and we had a lot of fun. And we also had fun seeing. And, you know, it was kind of nice to go to Delphi first, because it was like, that's why we're here. Like, that's the story we wanted to tell. And that those are the girls that we wanted to kind of elevate above all the noise of this case. And having people be there and say, yeah, the girl's story resonated with us. Even though we're not true crime people, even though we don't. We didn't know everything about this case going into it. It just really, really touched me, and
- [58:00]
Kevin Greenlee
I think we should end there before we wreck that nice ending.
- [58:04]
Anya Cain
Yeah. All right, thanks, everyone, for listening.
- [58:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [58:27]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [58:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [59:02]
Anya Cain
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.