The Cheat Sheet: Repeats and Radicals

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – The Cheat Sheet: Repeats and Radicals

Hosts: Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Date: October 3, 2025
Theme:
This episode of Murder Sheet’s “Cheat Sheet” dives deep into a cluster of recent violent crimes on the East Coast and Pacific Northwest, focusing on cases involving repeat offenders, issues around criminal justice rehabilitation versus long-term incarceration, and the influence of radicalizing media consumption. Áine and Kevin thread personal reflections and debates throughout, maintaining their signature blend of journalistic rigor, snark, and banter.

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Major Discussion Points

1. A Brutal Double Murder in Queens, New York

[05:03 – 13:06]

• Victims: Frank and Maureen Olten, an elderly couple living in Belrose, Queens.

• Crime: On September 8, 2025, career criminal Jamal McGriff—already a sex offender and with an extensive record—uses a ruse (needing to charge his phone) to gain entry to the Oltens’ home. He proceeds to commit a brutal robbery, torturing and tying Frank to a post in the basement and stabbing him to death; Maureen’s body is found badly burned in the resulting house fire.

• Investigation: Police tracked McGriff through surveillance footage and his use of the victims’ credit cards. NYPD's pickpocket unit and modern technology played a crucial role in his capture.

• Reflections: Áine notes the tendency to downplay robberies and points to how lesser crimes like robbery can escalate into fatal violence.

  “If you’re going around and like pointing a gun in a lot of people’s faces, that’s not a mistake…those crimes should also be taken seriously because they can escalate to something like this very easily.” – Áine ([11:04])

• Trauma Reminder: Kevin recounts a lasting trauma of a past non-lethal robbery victim to illustrate that even ‘lesser’ crimes have profound impacts.

  “The memory of having the gun in his face and all of that was obviously still very fresh and still very traumatic for him.” – Kevin ([11:39])

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2. Serial Domestic Violence & Justice Failures – The Robson Case (Massachusetts)

[13:06 – 21:29]

• Case Summary: Kenneth Robson, 68, pleads guilty to killing his second wife, Kwesita Holmes. Shocking revelations emerge—Robson had previously been convicted of murdering his first wife in 1984 and attempted to kill his landlord in 1979.

• Sentencing Lapses: Despite a 10-year sentence for attempted murder, Robson was out early enough to kill again. Áine and Kevin highlight the legacy of lenient sentencing, especially regarding violence against women.

• Quote:

  “Don’t you feel like at a point in the past almost judges...were almost like, you can have a little violence against women as a treat?...It was like, we’ll give him a pass on that. It was just his wife.” – Áine ([19:13])

• Discussion:

  • The historic and systemic devaluation of violence against women.
  • Whether tough sentencing, as in the case of rapist Donald Forrester, can and does save lives:

    “He looked at Donald Forrester and said, this is a very violent man... We need to protect women from people like this.” – Kevin ([20:03])

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3. The Recidivism Debate: Rehabilitation vs. Public Safety

[12:08, 21:29 – 24:24]

• Both hosts wrestle with the idealism of rehabilitation versus the grim reality that some offenders continually pose threats, even after release.
• Áine becomes “more convinced over time” that some people “just cannot function without being violent” and long-term incarceration is justified.
• Reflection on how working in true crime affects their outlooks:

  “The more we do true crime, the more I become very much convinced…some people should just not be out.” – Áine ([22:40])

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4. The Kevin J. Doherty Case (Massachusetts)

[26:33 – 33:27]

• Victim: Kevin J. Doherty, 56, shot dead after reportedly confronting a man, Sneel Srivastava, who was graffitiing a bridge. The attack happened in front of the school Doherty’s child attended.

• Offender's History: Srivastava had a violent record: attacking a stranger with a machete (2022), a family member (2018), and a 2020 armed home invasion, but wasn’t incarcerated due to psychological findings and the court’s failure to prosecute.

• Concerns on Competency Proceedings: Áine wonders why, if Srivastava was declared unfit for trial, he wasn’t held in a secure facility until fit.

  “My understanding was being unfit to stand trial shouldn’t mean that someone’s released…why this guy was allowed out after committing such a violent attack is beyond me.” – Áine ([30:40])

• Societal Implications: The hosts debate the balance between not returning to abusive mental institutions and the clear danger posed by releasing violent offenders.

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5. Radicalization, Media, and a Washington State Murder

[33:27 – 45:58]

• Case: Alex Wagner, 22, kills Abdelkadeer Sharif after a minor traffic incident. Wagner claims self-defense, but is convicted of second-degree murder.

• Defense Argument at Sentencing: Wagner’s lawyer argues he had been “mesmerized” and radicalized by self-defense–related gun content on YouTube, which fueled paranoia.

• Debate:

  • Áine acknowledges that social media and algorithms can “rewire brains,” but is firm on personal responsibility:

  “Just because…algorithms…radicalize them…we all have choices…The fact that you were watching all these stupid YouTubers and it made you a nut. That’s your problem. Like grow up and log off.” – Áine ([38:42], [38:50])

  • Kevin connects the defense’s argument to historical moral panics over comic books, gangster rap, and violent video games, noting these arguments are recycled:

  “There’s always a tendency…to blame media for their own bad actions or for the bad actions of others.” – Kevin ([39:50])

• Judicial Response:

  • Judge Okrent rejects the YouTube defense:

  “This was not about watching videos…Not one video says take out your gun and shoot somebody…when someone is trying to apologize…Very few people in that situation would pull out their gun and empty 11 bullets into a man.” ([45:05])

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6. Broader Social Commentary & Personal Reflections

[24:24 – 26:02]; [45:36 – end]

• Crime Trends: Áine reassures listeners that crime rates are down overall, though shocking stories do continue to happen.
• Personal Impact: The hosts joke about how working in true crime (and especially doing the Cheat Sheet episodes) has affected their own attitudes toward crime and punishment.
• Societal Dilemmas: The episode frequently circles the fundamental question: how do we balance public safety, the rights and dignity of the mentally ill, and the legitimate concerns over past abuses in institutionalization?

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Notable Quotes

• On rehabilitation vs. incarceration:

  “Some people just aren’t going to be rehabilitated…keeping people like that in prison for a long time to the point where they…can’t hurt anybody, that’s okay with me.” – Áine ([12:08])

• On violence against women:

  “Violence against women and children, frankly, at a certain point in this country was just not taken very seriously…and maybe even into the 80s, there’s a real leniency in sentencing…and it’s appalling.” – Áine ([19:13])

• On new media’s influence:

  “YouTube and social media in general are, I think…I mean, having adverse mental health effects on people…It just puts them down a rabbit hole and can radicalize them.” – Áine ([37:09])

• On the responsibility for violent crime:

  “If you keep on knowingly ingesting drugs and then violently lashing out at people, that’s a you problem.” – Áine ([22:40])

• On attempted media defense at sentencing:

  “There are lots of videos on gun safety, lots…on protecting yourself. Not one video says take out your gun and shoot someone…when someone is trying to apologize…” – Judge Richard Okrent, as recited by Kevin ([45:05])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | |--------------------------------------|------------| | Content warning/opening remarks | 03:13 | | NY double homicide (Oltens) | 05:03 | | Reflections on robbery & trauma | 11:32 | | Robson case – two wives murdered | 13:06 | | Judicial/cultural leniency debate | 19:13 | | Effects of true crime on hosts | 24:02 | | Doherty murder/sentencing issues | 26:33 | | Failures to detain the dangerous | 31:16 | | Washington State, YouTube defense | 33:27 | | Rejection of “YouTube defense” | 45:05 | | Events, apologies, local banter | 46:05+ |

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Memorable Moments & Banter

• “Cane Train” banter: Ongoing playful ribbing about who is responsible for the “train” running off the rails.
• Franklin, Indiana vs. Franklin, Tennessee: Áine’s mix-up of restaurant recommendations showcases her “research pole” antics ([48:13]), and sets up an amusing apology to local listeners.
• French spam woes: Kevin’s pursuit of a French true crime case leads to an inbox overflow of French-language emails, and mutual reflection on the hosts’ linguistic challenges ([54:25]).
• Audience Q&A: Listeners wonder about Kevin keeping Áine “on a leash,” which is met with good-natured mock outrage ([53:07]).
• Apology tour: Multiple self-deprecating apologies about book-date errors and cheerful shoutouts to audience members showing up at local eateries, rounding out the episode with warmth and humility.

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Final Notes

This episode, “Repeats and Radicals,” showcases the Murder Sheet’s ability to dissect serious issues—violent recidivism, system failures, media influence—while retaining a conversational, relatable tone. Highlights include candid, sometimes controversial viewpoints on criminal justice, and the hosts’ growing skepticism about rehabilitation in the face of continued, egregious violent crime. Personal anecdotes, event announcements, and apologies to listeners (and each other!) ensure the episode is as personable and dynamic as it is sober and thought-provoking.

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Transcript

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[A]

Experience.

[B]

Content warning. This episode concludes discussion of domestic violence and murder.

[A]

So today, this cheat sheet is going to be a very Massachusetts, New York, east coast dominated affair.

[B]

But as you know, the journeys of the cane train are never well planned, because we're going to go all the way from the far end of the east coast of this great land all the way over to the west coast to Washington State for a case at the end.

[A]

Wow. I feel like you sound kind of disappointed, like this is my planning, but I'm gonna just make it clear. The cane train is your own invention.

[B]

But you are the chief engineer because of your deep love of trains.

[A]

What?

[B]

And then at the end, promotional announcements, Kevin's apology tour. Yeah, because I definitely owe one of our listeners an apology, and his family and I arguably owe you an apology.

[A]

I agree, and I think you do, even though I don't know what it's about. But I think you should hang your head in shame.

[B]

You don't even know what I'm talking.

[A]

About at the end of this episode.

[B]

Yeah. And then we're gonna see some of you tonight in Franklin. If you're listening to this on the day it's released. If you're listening to it later, we're not gonna see you in Franklin.

[A]

Yeah, don't show up. All you Saturday listeners, come on.

[B]

And so, Anya, I wouldn't necessarily call it a story, but Anya's anecdote this week is going to be Franklin themed. So it's a full program. And let's get started.

[A]

You're gonna have to remember, remind me of what it is. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[A]

We're the Murder sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Repeats and radicals, Sam. So this first case that we're doing is a case out of my home state of New York, specifically the New York City area. And Queens, Belrose, Queensland, a neighborhood that's, you know, residential. And it concerns a couple named Frank and Maureen Olten. And they had grown, and they lived for years in this neighborhood. They raised their children in this neighborhood. Maureen was a schoolteacher, and Frank seemingly worked for Child Support services in New York City. So they, you know, are just living their lives and this horrific incident Takes Place on September 8, 2025. To give you a sense of where I got this information from, I relied on sources like eyewitness news, NBC New York, Fox 5, New York, K, Fox TV. This has gotten a lot of coverage because it is a particularly brutal and horrible homicide. So this, this guy, his name is Jamal Jamal McGriff. He's a career criminal. He has a lot of different charges to his name. He's a registered or he's a sex offender, but he failed to register in November of 2024. He is allegedly committed to robberies in Manhattan pretty recently, a Gamestop store and a Verizon store. And the Verizon store robbery proceeded until the employees, you know, realized he had a fake gun and fought him off. And so he also then served a pretty lengthy stint in prison for a robbery in 20 in 2006. So, you know, this is a, this is a bad person who's done a lot of bad things so far. He was going around this neighborhood in Queens asking people if he could. He basically indicating that he needed help and saying, my phone battery's dying. Can I come in your house and charge my phone? And he goes to one place and they say no. And when he gets to the Olten's place, Frank Olten seemingly lets him into their backyard. And surveillance video captures him going basically through the back door of the home. Now from what I read from some of these sources, police say, say that maybe he shoved his way in, like pushing his way in. And this is an elderly couple we're talking about.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, and so, and that Frank tried to fight him but unfortunately was not able to fight him off. And the house was. The next thing anyone knows, the house is on fire. The Olten's house is on fire. And when police and firefighters respond, they discover the. The two Oltens murdered inside the house. And 77 year old Maureen was. Her body was badly charged, charged, rather burned in this fire. And 76 year old Frank was tied to a post in the basement and stabbed to death. So this is like a torture murder. It's horrible. And police then got to work really trying to find this guy. And what ended up being critical was he was using credit cards from his victims and he was being picked up in surveillance footage. So they're able to kind of follow where he went right around in the city. And ultimately the nypd, they have like, I guess a group of police who, you know, focus on pickpockets. They were able to recognize him before that, you know, all this is from a kind of an eyewitness news where they kind of broke down each aspect of the investigation. And it's worth reading because it's very interesting about how they pieced it together. And you can kind of see how police definitely benefit from some of this more modern technology in terms of surveillance. And they, they talked about how like one of the detectives actually, like they were able to trace him to this movie theater where he went to see a film. One of the detectives like ran, jumped on the 6 train and got to the theater right after he left, like just missing him. But that at that movie theater they're able to get more video and kind of follow along where he's going next. So eventually these police focusing on pickpockets, they were able to pick him up based on some of these descriptions from the videos and kind of going around. But you know, it just like, I don't know, you see something like this and this guy is like committing all these crimes and has added nothing to society. And the Oltens are horrifically murdered after presumably being tortured and possibly in fear for their lives for hours. They had kids, you know, they, they didn't deserve this. No one does. But like, I don't know, like if this guy. This is why like when people almost like make it out that like, things like robberies aren't a big deal, like if you're going around and like pointing a gun in a lot of people's faces, like, that's not a mistake, you know, I think those crimes should also be taken seriously because they can escalate to something like this very easily.

[B]

I certainly recall that at one point a few years ago when we were discussing and researching the Burger Chef murders, we found a person who was a victim of the so called Burger Chef robbery gang that was going around that time and robbing different restaurants at gunpoint. And at the time we talked to this man who was a victim of a robbery conducted by this gang. Decades had passed. Over 40 years had passed. But the memory of having the gun in his face and all of that was obviously still very fresh and still very traumatic for him.

[A]

Yeah, I know there's like, I don't know, there's been like a push in society in the United States to really, you know, oh, we want to have rehabilitation and we want people to, you know, get out of prison and make their lives better. But the thing is like, people have to choose to do that, you know, and I, and I don't, I appreciate the idealism of that viewpoint and I certainly Appreciate in theory, pushing for rehabilitation and whatnot. But some people just aren't going to be rehabilitated. And like, honestly, keeping people like that in prison for a long time to the point where they like can't hurt anybody, that's okay with me. I don't think that's a bad outcome. I think that's good for society. So that's the New York case. Very sad, very upsetting for the Oltens. My heart goes out for their sons and people who knew them. And it's just horrific. And this guy needs to have the book thrown at him over this. This is, I mean, appalling.

[B]

So we don't discuss our cases with each other really until the program. And we don't, you know, collude on case choice.

[A]

Sounds really defensive.

[B]

Well, no, I'm just saying that this case I'm about to discuss in some ways thematically similar and it's a case. Anytime there's a murder or loss of life, it's a huge tragedy and we should be outraged by it. But with that said, some cases make me especially angry and I'm going to tell you about one of those now. My source for this was boston.com I also use newspapers.com to look up some old newspaper articles for some context. And what's going on now is a 68 year old man named Kenneth Robson recently pled guilty to killing his wife, second degree murder. His wife is 45 year old Kwesita Holmes. He called 911 shortly before 5am about a year and a half ago and told dispatchers he had just hit his wife with a hammer and that she might be deceased. And they did indeed discover the murder weapon. And this poor woman, she wasn't immediately dead, but she did pass away a few weeks later from the wounds she suffered in that horrific attack. And now this man has been sentenced to life. So he's not going to get out. Well, pardon me. He's been sentenced to 25 years to life. He's 68 years old. I don't think he's going to ever leave that cell again. But what upsets me is this man has a previous murder conviction. Back in 1984, he killed his previous wife.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Yes, and her name was Joan Casson. In both cases there's allegations at least from him that he'd been using some sort of drugs or something that helped spur on the attack. And he served his time for that, was released and then committed this other crime. And the newspaper article, or rather the article that I read about this from Boston.com notes that it's not clear how long his sentence was for the murder of his first wife. So that's why I went to newspapers.com and I found out that he was sentenced to 18 years for that murder and that he killed her. It was a stabbing. And what upset me further was one of these articles from 1984 mentioned that this man had previously been convicted of attempted murder all the way back in October of 1979 for beating his landlord over the head with a golf club. And at that time he was sentenced to that crime for 10 years. And you're saying, well, if he was sentenced in October of 1979 for 10 years, how on earth was he able to kill his first wife in 1984? And the reason for that is that the judge in the case ended up cutting his sentence in half after this man's attorneys successfully argued that it was too long. And again, in the golf club beating, there were claims on his part that it was somehow related to drugs. So basically this man has been in and out of the system and anytime he's allowed to leave the system, he seems to commit violence on people. And tragically, two of the people he committed violence on were women who loved him enough to marry him and it cost them their lives.

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[D]

Not great with finances.

[A]

That's okay.

[D]

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[A]

Experian. My God. I mean, like, don't you feel like at a point in the past almost judges or, you know, people within the system were almost like, you can have a little violence against women as a treat. You know, like, it was like, it was like, almost like, we'll give him a pass on that. It was just his wife. I mean, like, I, I feel like there's like a weird misogynistic streak in a lot of this, like, violence against women and children, frankly, at a certain point in this country was just not taken very seriously. And as it, I think it's taken more seriously now, actually. But I think in like, when I look at cases in like the 50s, 60s, 70s, it just, there's, and maybe even into the 80s, there just almost strikes me as like, there's a real leniency in sentencing and with how judges react to this stuff. And it's appalling. It's led to a lot of appalling circumstances. Like, we all know the true crime cases where it's like, this guy was paroled five times and in the last one he like, decapitated five people. It's like, yeah, okay, like, did we not, did we not, like, see all the other things this guy was doing? Like, what?

[B]

And I'm sure there are cases we don't know about where people were given long sentences and lives were saved. As you were talking, you can't know.

[A]

Who they would have killed had they been out.

[B]

Well, I'm to tell you, the example that popped into my head is my second Burger Chef reference of the episode.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

A man named Donald Forrester raped a woman in 1979. And a judge gave him a 95 year sentence for that, which is a very, very long sentence, I think even today for a rape charge. And I think the primary reason this judge gave him this sentence was he looked at the man in front of him. He looked at Donald Forrester and said, this is A very violent man who has a history of violence against women. He doesn't need to be out on the streets amongst women. We need to protect women from people like this. And so because of that, gave Forrester a much longer sentence than you might otherwise expect. And I think you would agree with me, the fact that the judge in that case gave such a long sentence in 1979 or 80, whenever the sentencing was, it saved lives.

[A]

That man was fixing to become a serial killer. It absolutely saved lives. And I feel like nowadays people. Oh, that's kind of harsh. Oh, well, you know, he can be rehabilitated. No, some people cannot. That guy was going to kill somebody. I think you could pitch me on the idea that he did kill people. I don't think he killed anyone in Burger Chef. I don't think he's related to that case. But I mean, I could buy him killing someone and we just don't know about it yet. I, I, I think. But again, like today, again, like, it's like this. Oh, well, you got to rehabilitate everyone. You know what? Like that's a, that's a Russian roulette game. You know, you better hope they're rehabilitated or then you're going to get something. Something like that guy killing like two wives in a row and, you know, causing untold misery. You know, at some point, it's not really society's problem. Also, if this guy keeps on doing drugs and violently on, you know, a lot of people abuse drugs and don't necessarily kill people. So that's just an excuse. Like, I don't care if you're going around killing people. I don't care if you're on drugs or not. I care if you're mentally ill. That's something that you can't help but. And then if you're that mentally ill, then you also shouldn't be out. So, I mean, that's more of a societal failing. But if you keep on knowingly ingesting drugs and then violently lashing out at people, that's a you problem. That's not like, are people supposed to feel sorry for you in that situation? Like what? Like, I, I don't know. I think, I think society and the criminal justice system has gotten tougher on crime over time. After kind of the massive crime wave that this country experienced into the 90s. I think there have been more tough on crime. And you can argue about whether or not those are good or whether those are merciful or whether whatever, but at some point it's like, you know, if people are out in the streets doing violent and vile actions, I don't really care if they go to prison for a long time. I actually think that's a good thing. Maybe that's controversial, but also the more we do true crime, the more I become very much convinced of that. Like, you know, some people should just not be out. They can't handle it. And, and some of those people aren't even going to be violent. And I think they should get help, but I think they should get help in some place to stay. But the ones that are going to be violent, who just cannot function without being violent, you know, it's interesting. Long sentence is fine.

[B]

It's interesting. You say maybe you're. You've changed your mind because of doing True.

[A]

I'm not changing my mind. It's more solidified beliefs. I have.

[B]

Maybe at some point we should do an episode. We just talk and say, how. How did. How has doing true crime changed us for the better or the worse?

[A]

Messed us up mentally? Not good. We chose to read a lot about bad things happening and broke our brains. Is that basically the Anya and Kevin story?

[B]

Well, don't give away that episode.

[A]

Oh, sorry.

[B]

Spoilers, spoilers. That episode will be coming soon to a device near you.

[A]

Honestly, I think it's cheat sheet, too. I think cheat sheets wrecked me. You know, like, again, people have the perception that crime is out of control. It's not. And I certainly don't want our listeners to think that it is. Crime rates are down significantly all across the board, including violent crime rates. If you look, if you look at statistics over time, we're in a very good place with that right now, you know, but that doesn't mean that there isn't wild stuff happening. And certainly from my view, you know, it doesn't something. Crime rates can be down and then still. Stuff can still be happening. That's still a problem and needs to be dealt with. So it's not really mutually exclusive, but I think just getting into some of these horrible things happening and then like, you know, reading about, oh, this guy had like an extensive criminal record or this guy had a history of his family trying to commit him and, you know, judges would just not let them. And then this tragedy happened, it just sort of makes you feel like, okay, well, something could have been done here and it wasn't, and that's messed up. Also, if you were like, that guy's attorneys, like, oh, he, he needs a lighter sentence. He's always. So he didn't. He was just on drugs, you know it's too mean to put him in prison for a long time. Do you think they sleep. Slept at night after they heard that his second and that his. That his wife was then subsequently killed after the landlord attack? Or do you think they just don't care? I would feel like that would haunt me for life, but I don't know. They're doing their jobs on one hand, but if your job leads to someone getting killed, I mean, that's. That sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sucks more for her, though. So we're going to Massachusetts now.

[B]

We are in Massachusetts.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry. Are we gonna stay in Massachusetts?

[B]

Some chief engineer.

[A]

You've given me so many different roles within this train. Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm over taxed. Maybe I'm doing too much. Maybe I'm overstressed and burdened by the labor that it takes to run the frigging train.

[B]

It was your idea to start doing the program from a train.

[A]

No, it wasn't. You made up the cane train. That was something you did because you think it's whimsical.

[B]

And I was correct.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

But go on.

[A]

So I picked a Massachusetts case too. This is a listener recommendation. Thank you so much to the listener who recommended this. They were super helpful and pointed out some good sources and places to do some research on this. So again, shout out to that listener. Thank you. This is a horrible case as well. This is the case of the murder of Kevin J. Doherty, a 56 year old man who was dropping his 6 year old son off at elementary school in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, near Jordan Pond. And he. Witnesses say that he went to, you know, after doing this, at some point he, he, he went to confront a man who was seemingly doing graffiti, like at a, at a bridge, vandalizing this, this local bridge with graffiti. And they're arguing and then the witness sees this guy pull out a handgun and shoot dy. Multiple times. Doherty manages to call police and say he'd been shot. He'd been shot five times specifically. But unfortunately he passed away. So he died after confronting this vandal. And you know, I guess police dug into this and then they ultimately arrested a 26 year old man named Sneel. I'm not, I'm not going to say this right. Srivastava. Srivastava. Srivastava, of course, had a very violent criminal history dating all the way back to 2018. And this includes, but is not limited to, he literally attacked a man in 2022 in a regal Cinema parking lot with a machete. This Guy Natish Sharma was in his car minding his own business. Then this Srivastava starts circling his car, running around. Sharma gets out of his car and is like, what's going on? This guy swings a machete at him and Sharma grabbed the blade. You know, trying to, you know, and just saying, I don't know who you are. Like, what is going on? He survived. And then he told Boston 25 News now that he, this guy killed someone. Like, basically, like, it's horrible because had he gone to jail for that or had he been prosecuted for that, Kevin Doherty would be alive. And when with this machete attack thing, the, that was dismissed by the court. And, and what Boston25 said is that the paperwork cited failure to prosecute. And, and what Sharma said was that, that this, this, this machete wielding nut case, I guess present. His lawyer presented a psychologist's report saying that he's unfit. So he went through a number of competency evaluations. Now this is what Sharma believes. I don't know what happened in this case specifically. Like, I would have, we would have to look at the records closely. So maybe other. But I mean, my understanding was being unfit to stand trial shouldn't mean that someone's released, right? You can be declared unfit and then sent to a mental hospital where you have to reside until you are fit to stand trial. So I don't know why this, I don't know why this guy was allowed out after committing such a violent attack against Sharma. So that's horrifying. But of course, Srivastava's criminal history doesn't end there. He attacked one of his own family members in 2018, terrorizing them. And in 2020, he did a home invasion armed with a hammer. So, you know, really swell guy. Super glad that he was, you know, out there to deface public property and attack innocent civilians going on about their day, you know, like, why this guy wasn't locked away somewhere he couldn't hurt anybody is beyond me. Apparently his house is completely covered in graffiti. And you know, I mean, instead of just basically acknowledging that, you know, some people don't like to see others just publicly defacing things and committing crimes, you know, he had to kill this father. I mean, like, you know, like, why is this guy out? Like, I mean, like, what do you think?

[B]

Good questions. I, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know the answers.

[A]

Yeah, it's horrible. Well, I'll include the links to, to this, this case in terms of. I looked at WCVB. I mentioned Boston 25 Mass Live had some good coverage, but, you know, now he's facing charges over this killing and whatnot. But I just. I don't know. I just. This one bothers me. It's just like, this guy should not have been out. This is, you know, I, I don't. I don't think his handgun was obtained legally, but it doesn't even matter. I mean, it. It's just, you know, he obviously was a ticking time bomb before he killed somebody. And I think as a society, I mean, I think there's political will on both sides of the political spectrum to have, you know, not have people like that running around. But the question is, you know, how do you. How do you ensure that this doesn't happen? You don't want to have a situation where we go back to mental asylums where a. A husband can commit a wife for, you know, being mean to him or something.

[B]

Well, I'm not so sure about that.

[A]

I was looking pointedly at Kevin when I said that. I mean, mental institutions have a dark history in this country in that sense. You know, you can have people committed for the wrong reasons. You can have mentally ill people warehoused and forgotten about and mistreated and abused, but the answer is certainly not, like, just let people just vibe in when they're being violent publicly. I don't even know if this guy has a mental illness. I mean, it sounds like he got some sort of psychological report saying he was, but, I mean, a lot of mentally ill people aren't violent. If he was, I mean, he shouldn't have been free to do this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And also, we're just basically using our. I mean, it's not like nothing happens to people. Ultimately, they kill somebody and then they go to prison for life. So, I mean, maybe there's like a. An outcome where nobody has to die and nobody has to go to prison for life, and they can go to a place that's safe and is going to be able to deal with their, you know, constant crises and, you know, not be an abusive system. I don't know. Yeah, that's. That's my cases for today.

[B]

Well, I still have one more all the way on the other side of the country in the great state of Washington. And my sources for this are myedmondsnews.com and komones.com and so first I'm going to jump back and I'm going to tell you about the actual crime in this case, which unfortunately is murder. And it took place close to two years ago, back in January of 2020. 4. And then I'm going to tell you about an issue that the defense raised in the sentencing hearing much more recently, which is why I'm really talking about it. And I guess when I say there was a sentencing hearing, I'm kind of giving away the end here. It tells you that there was a conviction. So there's this man, Alex, Alex Wagner, 22 years old, and he is out walking and a car driven by Abdelkadeer Sharif nearly hits him. It's a, it's a near miss. It's characterized in different ways, but it's not a situation where this car caused him to like, suddenly have to leap out of the way. It's more like he just kind of has to out of the way. But still, that's kind of a disturbing thing by anyone's account. And so after this happens, Mr. Sharif stops his car and rolls down his window because he's going to apologize for the incident. And at that time, Mr. Wagner takes out a gun and shoots Mr. Sharif to death.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And he tries at his trial to suggest that this was self defense. What the. I, I suppose he thought this guy was deliberately trying to hit him or something like that. And his defense is his state of mind. That counts. Blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Paranoid nut job. So, I mean, was that.

[B]

Get into that in a minute.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That'S not bought. And as I indicated earlier, he is convicted of second degree murder. In my opinion, rightfully so. It sounds like you agree with that verdict. And so now it comes time for the sentencing hearing. And the defense at this time suggests, well, maybe we should take it easy on him when it comes to the sentence. Because the client, Wagner, who killed a man, he became really, quote, mesmerized by YouTube videos that were going around about guns and self defense. And because he was so engaged with this YouTube content, it basically, for lack of a better word, it, it radicalized him or it made him very, very paranoid. And so that created this situation that led to the murder. So I guess my first question to you is, what do you think of that? Do you think YouTube is changing people and making people more paranoid? And if so, do you think that should be a way for those people to evade responsibility for their acts?

[A]

Yes and no are my answer to those two questions.

[B]

Care to elaborate?

[A]

Yes. To YouTube and social media in general are, I think, I mean, having adverse mental health effects on people. That's, I mean, I guess I'm not a scientist, but the anecdotal evidence is pretty abundant when you look anywhere. And I think when people are consuming content and then algorithms on YouTube are feeding them more like minded content, it just puts them down a rabbit hole and can radicalize them in terms of ideologies and politics or, you know, whatever. I mean, it can be anything. Like it doesn't have to be one thing or another. And it's certainly not isolated to one political spectrum or another. It's just like, you know, you kind of double down and if someone's sort of weak minded and, you know, not perhaps not that bright in the first place, I think it's very easily, you know, kind of rewiring people's brains and like just making them, making them into almost a different person. But I mean, at the same time we all have choices, you know, and, and just because like if I, if I read a bunch of books and stuff, I mean, like that doesn't, you know, and think I'm, you know, living in Jane Austen times. I mean, I'm not like I have to take responsibility for my own actions and this person does too. I mean, listen, we, we know drugs are brain altering. If I do a bunch of PCP and kill a bunch of people, it doesn't really make me any less culpable. Maybe people might make excuses, oh, Anya would have never done that unless she was on pcp. But like, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, legally. I mean, am I wrong? I mean, I mean, I don't, yeah.

[B]

I tend to agree with you in some way.

[A]

That's a you problem, buddy. The fact that you were watching all these stupid youtubers and it made you a nut. That's your problem. Like grow up and log off.

[B]

In some ways they reminded me, you know, I'm a comic book guy. And back in the 50s there was a lot of hue and cry in this country about so called horror comic books or violent comic books. That it was being suggested by some people that this was somehow damaging the minds of children and making them have a greater propensity to commit crimes. So it feels like this is a discussion this country has been through before. I'm also old enough to remember similar discussions over the years about violent television or gangster rap. Gangster rap or video games. So there's always a tendency for people to want to blame media for their own bad actions or for the bad actions of others.

[A]

My darling son would have never done this if not for the influence of horror comic books.

[B]

But I do agree, I value free speech very highly and in my opinion, ultimately we have to take responsibility for our own actions. I just Wanted to highlight this because, you know, if this guy is trying this, this defense attorney is trying it, I imagine we're going to see more and more people trying this over.

[A]

I mean, props to the defense attorney for doing something. I mean, obviously, you know, that's his job or her job, but, you know. Yeah, I'm. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility, too. I mean, I, you know, it's kind of if something's negatively affecting your life, you know, you have the power to stop it. If you're. If you're, you know, if you're drinking too much, you know, at some point, like, get help and stop it. Like, like. And. And it's the same thing with this. If you have, like, an addictive behavior around consuming content and it's making your life worse and it's making you into a worse person, you have a responsibility to stop that before it becomes someone else's problem. And this guy made this poor driver, you know, he doesn't. He doesn't get a shot at life now. He's dead, you know, so, like, I mean, he. He certainly made it someone else's problem. I. I'm gonna, like, I. People are gonna get mad at me for saying this. I'm of the belief that, like, I do think that sometimes violent media can be a bad thing. As far as, like, desensitizing people to violence. I'm not. Listen, Anya.

[B]

Worth them.

[A]

My Tipper Gore era. No, I'm like, I. I do, but I don't really think, like, it doesn't. It doesn't circumvent personal responsibility. Like, like, what I'm saying is, like, you know, when. When you. When you look at some of these serial killers. I've been reading a lot of serial killer books recently. A lot of them are like, you know, I realized I wanted to kill people when I was looking at all these detective magazine covers, which are all, you know, very violent, lurid, kind of painting images of women in distress or tied up or being strangled or screaming because a guy with a knife is coming at them, you know, should they have banned detective magazines? No, but, like, is having a society awash in violent and misogynistic imagery constantly, like, a good thing for people? No. Do I think that that's the main thing that do I think, like, they would have been normal guys who were just, you know, chilling if they hadn't seen those detective magazine covers? No. There was obviously something seriously wrong with them.

[B]

You're, like, interviewing yourself.

[A]

There's two. Two. Two sides, I guess. I'm just saying, like, I do think that stuff can be desensitized. Like, I don't think it's the main culprit in anything. And with YouTube, I think something like that maybe can start someone down a bad path. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's. It's up to them and it's up to all of us to figure out, like, what's good for us and do the right thing around that. And, you know, unfortunately, these social media platforms are built to be addicting. They're built to hijack your brain and make you want to post more and do more and more. I think it's a good idea for people, for most people, to try to detox from that as much as possible and step away when we need to and not be on platforms that are making us feel worse.

[B]

Yeah, I value free speech pretty highly, so I'm not going to be inclined to support anything that limits that. I'm all in favor of studying things and trying to figure things out, but if you start saying, oh, this type of speech is bad and might have a bad impact, so let's get rid of it, I don't feel comfortable when we start limiting speech in this country.

[A]

That's not what I'm advocating for.

[B]

I understand.

[A]

I don't know how you could even do that without violating everybody's First Amendment rights. And I think what you can do is if your buddy's getting, you know, down some wild Rabbit hole on YouTube, you can just tell them that that's stupid. Like, come, come and, you know, let's touch grass together. Like, that's what we can do. We can connection over all this other slop or, you know, I mean, like, again, and like, you know, like these, these social media giants, like, you know, they're. They're trying now to sell people like AI friends. That's just going to make this stuff significantly worse. What we can do, what we can quietly revolt by doing, is just not playing into any of this crap and going on and living our lives with other human beings instead of these virtual echo chambers that are just radicalizing people. Yeah, I don't think you should. I don't think you should or even could tamp down on free speech. It's. But it's about, you know, I mean, part of. It's also, like, about raising your kids not to be idiots who just believe everything a YouTuber says, you know, And I say that as a podcaster. Right? Like, you have to, like, you can't just make your whole personality Getting into one corner of YouTube because that will wreck you. I mean, we saw people wreck themselves in the Delphi case on YouTube. We saw people like get radicalized on that and just go off the rails and their lives all like suffered for it. And it was just like watching these like lemmings run off a cliff. It was like, this is just sad. At some point.

[B]

Yeah, we watched it again and again, again and again.

[A]

It was like, I'm, I'm going nuts and I'm going all in on, you know, the Delphi defense, daddies and Richard Allen. And then it'll be like, now I'm getting divorced and like in a financial crisis. And it's like, because I've devoted all my time to this and it's like, what the. That's just sad.

[B]

So he ended up getting sentenced in this case, Mr. Wagner, to 19 years, seven months. I'm going to read you some of the comments.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I'm going to read you some of the comments that the judge, Richard Okrent made. He said this was not about watching videos. There are lots of videos on gun safety, lots of videos on protecting yourself. Not one video says take out your gun and shoot somebody in the dark. When someone is trying to apologize to you for a mistake, he accidentally almost hit you and stopped his car and he tried to apologize. Very few people in that situation would pull out their gun and empty 11 bullets into a man. Fair.

[A]

That's all well said. And I'll also add that like, you know, I mean, it's ironic that he's, you know, some big into second amendment because I mean, he's the kind of bad guy with a gun that you would fear. You know, I mean, like way to become what you were like, probably freaked out about against in the first place.

[B]

So now that's the conclusion of the case part of the program. So now we have Kevin apologies, we have promotional announcements, we have Anya's Franklin themed anecdote. Because we're going to Franklin today and look forward to seeing. Well, I can tell it and it's about you, but I can tell it. So what's the order? We should do these.

[A]

How about I do events first? I'll just kind of rattle off. So as is. If you're listening to this on Friday, October 3, 2025, we have an event tonight in Franklin, Indiana. Doors open at 5pm Event starts at 6pm and it's a ticketed event and you can purchase your tickets. We have it linked to the ticket page at murdersheet podcast.com events. That's where you can see all the events we're going to have. So that's in the every single show note. So just follow along there. We'll add stuff if more stuff comes up. But after that, Saturday, October 11th, we have a the Louisville Book Festival in Louisville, Kentucky.

[B]

Look forward to seeing the Kentuckians.

[A]

Yes, we look forward to seeing the Kentuckians. And we also will be speaking at that.

[B]

And you often speak of your love for Louisville.

[A]

Louisville's a cool town. I like it. October 18th, in Carmel, Indiana. We're going to be signing books from noon to 4pm at the Barnes and Noble. That's noon to 4pm noon to 4pm.

[B]

Is that Eastern time?

[A]

We're leaving at 4 on the dot now.

[B]

Is that. Is that Eastern time?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Always want to make sure we get the time zones correct because there was always the potential for confusion.

[A]

Bloomington, Indiana, we're going to be there on Sunday, October 26, 2025. We're going to be speaking at the Bloomington Book Festival. And that is also at 1:00pm That's Eastern Time. Get your tickets on our website, murdersheetpodcast.com events. And then Saturday, November 1, 2025, we're going back up towards the Delphi area. We're going to the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette. So. And we will be there from 1pm to 4pm Eastern Time. So we can't wait to see you all there. So that's our. That's our events. And what were the other things we had to do?

[B]

Well, you know, Anya, I'm not what you'd call a foodie, but I do enjoy eating.

[A]

Where is this going?

[B]

So on one occasion, you and I are planning to take a trip.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Either for business or pleasure. Down to Franklin, Indiana, where we're also appearing tonight.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And you say, Kevin, when we go these places, you just want to go to, like the Franklin Custer stand or something, which is great, by the way. And we'll be there on Friday.

[A]

Are we going to be there?

[B]

We're going to go to the custard stand either before or after the event. But you say, kevin, why don't we try to find something new? Why don't you let me do some research on restaurants in Franklin? And I'll bet I'll come up with options you're not even aware of. And so Adi, like, runs down to her research pole and slides down into the Internet where she busily starts doing research on restaurants in Franklin. And when she emerges, by gum, Ana's a Miracle worker, because I've been going to Franklin all my life. She has a list of really amazing sounding restaurants. I've never heard of any of them. And so I very excitedly pick out one. And we say, oh boy, let's go down and we'll enjoy this meal. And when we get down to. And I said, we don't even need to worry about. Frankly, it's so small, it'd be easy to find it. And so when we get down there and it's time to eat, we can't find this place. And Anya reads the address to me. And the street this restaurant's on doesn't seem to exist in Franklin, Indiana. At which point I say, let me look at this. And it turns out what Anya has done is she has looked up restaurants in Franklin, Tennessee, which is useful information but not terribly relevant to our needs that day. So that's the Franklin themed anecdote.

[A]

Oh, man, I feel like the denizens of Franklin are going to be mad at us, mad at me for promoting Franklin, Tennessee right before we go to an event in Franklin, Indiana. Yeah, I was pretty excited for those restaurants. It's like, wow, we never even heard of these. Took us way too long to figure it out.

[B]

Yeah, and there's a great custard stand in Franklin, Indiana, which we'll go to either before or after. And like, like we went to Kendallville last week.

[A]

What do you have flavors you like?

[B]

Oh, they always have flavors.

[A]

I know they always have flavors. Oh my God.

[B]

We went to Kendallville last week, which I'll be talking more about in a second. And I said beforehand, oh, you know, Anya. And dear listeners, before the the event, we'll be going to Grop's Fish Shack and feel free to come by and say hello. I think people thought I was kid, but two listeners did come to Grupp's Fish Shack.

[A]

We salute those listeners. God bless you guys. Hope you enjoyed the fish at the Shack.

[B]

Didn't they tell us afterwards?

[A]

They did, they did. It's very good fish. So I'm a fan.

[B]

So we've had the story.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

[B]

So at Kendallville, we have a great time. And afterwards there's a very nice man comes up to the table with his family. His name is Sean and he makes a reference to Athens of the Prairie, my hometown, Columbus. And I'm so stunned to hear this phrase uttered by another human being that when I sign his book, I misdated it. I've been putting the month in the year on the books. And instead of putting down 9:25, which it was last week, I put down 10:25. And I, like, stared at it. I was like, oh, my God, what can I do? And I thought I might mark it out, but then he'd have a big, ugly inkblot in his book.

[A]

Well, Kevin, you did that with some people, so now you're gonna make them feel like they got a big, ugly inkblot.

[B]

Did I mark out other people's dates? Yes. Well, I apologize to them.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Sean's going home with no inkblot but an incorrect date. So I apologize if he knows that.

[A]

Book for, like, an alibi, Police are gonna look at it and be like, you went in October. This doesn't add up.

[B]

I may have wrecked this young man's life.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And then I was like. I was gonna explain it to him, but he's such a nice man. He was there with his family, his lovely wife, his lovely child. They were all so charming that they walked out before I could apologize. I was charmed and delighted. Cause he talked about the Athens of the Prairies, and I misdated his book.

[A]

We apologize.

[B]

So apologize to Sean. I apologize to anybody who. If I did scribble out a date. I apologize. If I neglected to put in a date. I apologize. And people on this tour, sometimes they ask us questions. I think people like the idea of thinking about us having arguments, because they say, oh, do you ever fight about a case? Do you ever disagree about a case?

[A]

There's no peace in our household.

[B]

Or they say, oh, Kevin, you're keeping control of Anya. You let her go a little bit on a leash. But then when she goes too far, you have to pull it back.

[A]

Wait, I'm on a leash? What the.

[B]

Someone said that?

[A]

Good Lord.

[B]

And so usually we don't argue about cases, but I wanted to mention that this week, there has been a case that has been a source of quite a bit of contention in this household, because last week, I got very interested. I covered on Cheat Sheet Cedric Jubilar. And I want to cover that case again when it all wraps up. But meanwhile, I wanted to keep following the case. But as I learned, it's really hard to. To is a French case, and it's very hard to find a lot of English coverage of this trial. So I've been trying to go, like, French websites and have things translated to me and getting, like, trial subscriptions to different French newspapers. And so because of this, our inbox, the murder sheet inbox, has been inundated with French emails, by which I mean emails in French, a language that neither Anya or I speak. And she has expressed. Ms. Kane has expressed her dismay about suddenly receiving hundreds of French emails. So I publicly apologize.

[A]

It's okay. I understand. And I probably overreacted to it because I was like, why are we getting all these French emails? But then I was like, oh, I remember. Then I was like, can you turn them off or just make it so you only get the. The crime ones? And you were like, yes, yes. Just. Yeah, definitely. And then we're getting. We needed more bombarded, and I'm just like, I. We get enough emails in English that we can understand. And I just felt like we were being like. Like important stuff was being covered by all of these French emails, and I couldn't. I was just. I was dismayed. I wasn't mad at you, but I was just like, oh, geez, like, what is this? Like, is this even about a crime or is this about, like, French politics? We're not going to follow this.

[B]

You think maybe it should inspire us to take a French language course together?

[A]

See, unfortunately, I mean, I would like to do that. And, I mean, we should expand our horizons. But I've always been very bad at languages.

[B]

I muffle it.

[A]

Including English. Yeah, I'm languages, so I feel like I was never, you know, I loved. I took Latin in. In middle school and high school, and I was one of those. I. I love Roman history and Roman culture and all that, but the Latin, actually, this language, I was that, like, I actually did well in class, but, like, I didn't retain a lot, except for, like, just weird drama about, like, what happened in the late Republic. I can talk about that. I can't. I can't tell you how to, you know, conjugate and all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, my. My brain is messed up. I've told you this. Because I had a serious speech impediment as a child and actually took me, like, well over a decade of speech therapy in order to communicate at this fine, elevated level. I did it at that.

[A]

I have a wonderful voice and a wonderful way of speaking now, so.

[B]

Because it was a real struggle to learn how to speak. And then at some point, as an adult, of course, I go to college. I try very hard to learn French. I can't. I work harder in that class than all my other classes combined. And I just do miserably. And I wonder why. And then at some point, as an adult, I get a brain scan and the doctor tells me my brain looks like I've Had a stroke because there's so much damage around the language center. So I wonder, I speculate, if whatever that damage is that impacted my ability to speak also may have impacted my ability to try to learn another language.

[A]

You're a fascinating mystery. Honestly, I love it. But honestly, that's more impressive then because you're essentially like, you know, your brain's almost like a cobbled together boat that shouldn't be floating, but somehow skipping along, that's impressive.

[B]

It's just an old junker.

[A]

No, it's very good.

[B]

My brain is like a combination of Fred Sanford's truck and the Beverly Hillbillies car.

[A]

Aw. Very fun. I think it's very impressive, but, yeah, I mean, I wish I had an excuse like that. My brain's never been imaged. I shudder to think what they would find in there. But I've always been not so good at the languages. And again, including English, I feel like sometimes the way I talk and the way I write is more of coasting on vibes than anything else.

[B]

I think if they imaged your brain, they'd probably find, like, a poster of Jamie.

[A]

Yeah, they probably would. It's like the Zuniga map of the fort.

[B]

Are we done? We've gone off on a tangent. I've apologized to everybody. Oh, and also I might have to apologize on Sean's behalf to the listener because one of the things Sean said to us last week was, oh, you should definitely continue the stories. So if we continue the stories, it's Sean's fault and so he owes an apology to all of you.

[A]

Yes. He's gonna have to come on and we're just gonn you the apology tour. Endless. It's going to be endless. Oh, man. Anyways, thank you guys for listening and putting up with all this tomfoolery. Goodbye.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[E]

You know how everything's a subscription now? Music, movies, even socks. I swear.

[B]

If to continue this ad, please upgrade to Premium plus platinum.

[A]

What?

[E]

No. Anyway, Blue Apron, this is a pay per listen ad.

[B]

Please confirm your billing.

[E]

Oh, that's annoying. At least with the new Blue Apron there's no subscription needed. Get delicious meals delivered without the weekly plan.

[B]

Wait, no subscription?

[E]

Keep the flavor, Ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.