The Cheat Sheet: Resentencing and Revenge

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – The Cheat Sheet: Resentencing and Revenge

Release Date: May 16, 2025

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the complex themes of resentencing and revenge through the exploration of four poignant true crime cases across Indiana, Nebraska, and California. This detailed summary encapsulates their in-depth discussions, key insights, and the nuanced perspectives they bring to each case.

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1. Allison K. Davis Trial – Indiana

Overview: Áine and Kevin revisit the high-profile trial of Allison K. Davis, who stood accused of murdering her husband, Kevin Davis, in New Haven, Indiana. This case garnered significant attention due to parallels with the infamous Delphi murders, particularly the involvement of defense attorney Andrew Baldwin and Judge Francis Gall.

Key Points:

• Defense Tactics: Andrew Baldwin, known for his involvement in the Delphi case, represented Allison Davis, showcasing a pattern in handling high-stakes murder trials.
• Judge's Role: Judge Francis Gall's previous interactions with Baldwin raised concerns about potential biases, though ultimately, Allison Davis was acquitted.
• Evidence and Verdict: The prosecution's case, centered around the state’s contention that Allison staged her husband's death to appear accidental, was not persuasive enough for the jury. The defense effectively cast doubt on the timeline and authenticity of the evidence presented.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee [07:40]: “Let's see whether his fears proved to be justified or if he got fair treatment.”
• Áine Cain [09:44]: “The jury apparently felt that this was not a case where the state proved its case and they acquitted Allison K. Davis.”

Insights: The hosts emphasize the importance of respecting the jury's verdict, acknowledging that while public opinion may be divided, the decision reflects a comprehensive evaluation of all evidence and testimonies presented during the trial.

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2. Sedoni Pettis Case and Revenge Killing – Indiana

Overview: The episode shifts focus to a tragic incident in Hendricks County, Indiana, involving Sedoni Pettis, who, while on probation for an aggravated battery charge, crashed his stolen car into a family, resulting in the deaths of two young children. This act of violence set off a chain of retaliatory events.

Key Points:

• The Crash: On February 5, 2025, Pettis's reckless driving led to a fatal accident on US 40 Ronald Reagan Parkway, killing baby Iris instantly and later leading to the death of three-year-old Aries due to severe burns.
• Mark Vaughter's Revenge: During a court transfer at the Hendricks County Courthouse on May 5, 2025, Mark Vaughter, the great-grandfather of the victims, attempted to assassinate Pettis but was fatally shot by deputies.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain [22:26]: “This story starts on February 5, 2025, and it goes into a couple of directions. A man took his two young children... and the unimaginable happened.”
• Kevin Greenlee [24:28]: “When you take the law into your own hands, a lot can go wrong.”

Insights: The discussion highlights the destructive nature of revenge, contrasting cinematic notions with the grim reality where such acts often result in further tragedy. Áine and Kevin reflect on the limitations of the justice system and the dire consequences when individuals feel compelled to enact personal vengeance.

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3. Jeremy and Bailey Coke Tragedy – Nebraska

Overview: The hosts examine a heart-wrenching case from Dawson County, Nebraska, where Jeremy and Bailey Coke and their two sons, Hudson and Asher, were found dead with fatal knife wounds. The evidence suggests a murder-suicide perpetrated by Jeremy, driven by severe mental health struggles.

Key Points:

• Mental Health Struggles: Bailey Coke had publicly shared their battles with Jeremy's mental health issues, portraying a family deeply affected by his condition.
• Social Media Reactions: Post-incident, Bailey’s online presence became a target for blame and harassment, highlighting societal tendencies to scapegoat survivors rather than understanding underlying mental health challenges.
• Systemic Failures: The tragedy underscores the inadequacies in mental health support systems, advocating for humane, long-term care solutions to prevent such devastating outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain [30:37]: “Some people are not going to thrive on the outside without a lot of intensive work. Or maybe some people will never thrive on the outside and that's okay.”
• Kevin Greenlee [35:17]: “If there were places that were humane, that's a very important part of it, that were humane and well run, that would be an option.”

Insights: Áine and Kevin passionately discuss the critical need for improved mental health resources, emphasizing that stigma and lack of support can lead to irreversible tragedies. They advocate for compassionate and practical solutions, such as humane involuntary commitment options, to better support individuals struggling with severe mental health issues.

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4. Menendez Brothers Resentencing – California

Overview: The final case delved into is the Menendez Brothers from California, whose conviction for the murder of their parents, Jose and Mary Louise Menendez, brought forth significant legal and ethical debates. Initially sentenced to life without parole, recent developments hint at potential resentencing.

Key Points:

• Original Trial: In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Eric and Lyle Menendez were convicted of first-degree murder, with the defense citing prolonged abuse at the hands of their father.
• Resentencing Efforts: As of 2025, Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Jessick has resentenced the brothers to 50 years to life, opening the door for possible parole consideration.
• Abuse Allegations: Emerging testimonies, including those from individuals like Roy Rosello, bolster the credibility of the brothers' claims of abuse, complicating public perception and legal judgments.
• Rehabilitation and Parole Potential: The brothers have shown remorse and contributed positively within the prison system, prompting discussions on the balance between justice and rehabilitation.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain [43:21]: “I think the original, you know, I don't, it's not that I think that, oh, it was so awful that they were charged with first degree murder or anything like that.”
• Kevin Greenlee [47:03]: “I think you make a lot of good points, but it comes down to whether or not we as a society are committed to having the resources, making the resources available to make something like that a reality.”

Insights: The hosts engage in a nuanced debate about the possibility of leniency in cases where severe abuse is involved. They weigh the justice for the victims against the potential for rehabilitation of the perpetrators, questioning whether the legal system adequately accounts for deep-seated psychological trauma in sentencing.

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Final Thoughts and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Áine and Kevin intertwine their analyses with personal reflections and broader societal implications. They emphasize the importance of humane treatment within the justice and mental health systems, the destructive allure of revenge, and the complexities involved in sentencing decisions influenced by past abuses.

Key Takeaways:

• Respecting Legal Outcomes: Trusting in the jury's verdict despite personal disagreements underscores the integrity of the legal process.
• The Cycle of Revenge: Acts of personal vengeance often perpetuate further loss and tragedy, highlighting the need for systemic solutions.
• Mental Health Advocacy: Addressing mental health with compassion and adequate resources can prevent disasters and support affected families.
• Balancing Justice and Rehabilitation: Reevaluating long-standing convictions in light of new evidence and rehabilitative progress can lead to more just outcomes.

Notable Quote Summary:

• The importance of systemic changes: “We need to have humane, nice to use, you know, to, for lack of a better term, places where people can go in the long term while they deal with some of these issues.” – Áine Cain [34:12]
• On societal commitment: “It comes down to whether or not we as a society are committed to having the resources...” – Kevin Greenlee [35:17]

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Conclusion: In "The Cheat Sheet: Resentencing and Revenge," Murder Sheet offers a compelling exploration of how legal systems grapple with deep-seated personal and societal issues. Through meticulous case studies and thoughtful discourse, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee shed light on the intricate dance between justice, revenge, and the pursuit of humane treatment for those afflicted by mental health challenges.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we start this week's Cheat Sheet, need to give credit where it's due. Anya did all the prep work on this because I was so wrapped up getting the next couple of Temujin Kinzu episodes ready. So kudos to Anya for her hard, valiant work preparing what I'm sure would be an outstanding episode of the Cheat Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And if it's a disaster, you know who to blame. Well, I really appreciate that, Kevin. I appreciate you doing the research and digging into the murder of Scott Macklem. So happy to do it. Happy to linger in the Cheat Sheet minds. Today we've got four cases in three states. We've got Nebraska and California and also two in our home state of Indiana. So looking forward to talking with you about those. One of the Indiana cases is a new one, and in the other one it's a new one involving an old haunt of ours. And the other one is a case we've covered before involving some people we have profiled on this very show. Let's get to it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The Cheat Sheet Resentencing and revenge it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you are the sole conductor of the cane train this week and also, of course, my soulmate. Where do we begin?

[Anya Cain]

What are we doing? Well, we're going to start in Indiana. We're going to start in a place that's pretty familiar to Us, Fort Wayne. And we're going to start in a courtroom that's pretty familiar to us. That's quite. Courtroom. I think it's two in the Allen county courthouses, of course, where Judge Francis Gull presides. And it's very beautiful courtroom. It's very greenish.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a very beautiful courtroom. And it's. It's disappointing to me that we can't, like, share pictures of it with you because obviously we weren't allowed to take phones in to take pictures of it.

[Anya Cain]

We would have been shot. No, I'm just kidding. But we. They would have maybe confiscated, probably.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The whole courthouse is shockingly beautiful.

[Anya Cain]

It's gorgeous. So, yeah, if you. If you're going through Fort Wayne for any reason, definitely check it out. It's like, absolutely beautiful. Just make sure you leave your phone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In your car, otherwise you'll be shot.

[Anya Cain]

Shot on site.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Allen county people, very strict.

[Anya Cain]

Very strict people. So, you know, so this is a case that's been, you know, we covered in the past. It's the trial of Allison K. Davis for the murder of her husband, Kevin Davis. And this is a case that sort of saw people, you know, interested, who are interested in the Delphi murders case, of course, the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams to Delphi teens who were killed by a man named Richard Allen. And so Richard Allen's attorneys included a man named Andrew Baldwin. And the judge in that case was Francis Gall. Judge Francis G. From Allen County. So this case also saw Andrew Baldwin as defense counsel and Judge Gall as the judge. So. So people were like, wow, they're back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Rematch.

[Anya Cain]

It's not really a rematch because she's like the referee, but. But yeah, people have billed it as a rematch because obviously there was no love lost between the defense team in Delphi and the judge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And before you remind us the details of the crime itself, I would like to remind people that at one point in the proceedings for this case, Baldwin actually filed saying that Judge Gold should remove herself from this case because obviously she didn't like him and wouldn't be able to be fair to him.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, Andrew Baldwin's martyr complex resumes as. As usual. But in this case, I. Well, I mean, I don't want to. You can. What were you going to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we're see whether or not his fears proved to be justified or if he got fair treatment.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's pretty safe to say he got fair treatment because Allison K. Davis was acquitted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Remind us about the crime.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So this is a story that is one of Those situations where, you know, there's kind of a married couple, Allison and Kevin Davis. There was testimony from people like, she seemed to get along with his parents and whatnot. And like, you know, not necessarily like outward signs of trouble from just the media reports that I read. But on August 12, 2023, she calls 91 1. And first responders arrive to the scene and. And one of the new hate. This is in New Haven, Indiana, in Allen County. One of the officers, Kate Hetrick, said that there was so much blood, he thought Kevin Davis had shot himself in the head.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But they find him at the bottom of a staircase. Am I correct?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, they find him, his body next to a staircase, although I think the state's contention was that was neither here nor there. So they find him, he's severely injured. And first responders find Allison Davis's demeanor disturbing. She's doesn't seem that concerned about his welfare and is giggling with them at some point. I think it's appropriate to point out here that people react to shock in different ways. I don't, you know, that's. That can mean something or it can mean nothing. I think you have to go where the evidence is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the ultimate question is, this man is bloody and dead at the bottom of a staircase. Did he accidentally fall down the stairs and basically cause these injuries to himself, or did his wife beat him and then try to stage it to look like that?

[Anya Cain]

Well, physicians who examined him, I believe he died in the hospital. Physicians who examined him did not believe he fell down the stairs. They felt that his injuries were. They said they looked like something out of a really bad car crash or maybe someone who'd fallen 20ft down. They felt that they did not match the story of a man falling down the stairs. Investigators at the scene felt like there was not evidence that, you know, the scene to support the stairs theory. They said that his body temperature was only 91.6 degrees. And when they look at that, they say that moves the timeline of his injuries back quite a bit. So it kind of throws Allison K. Davis her version of events, at least according to the state's experts and according to these physicians, it throws that out because it basically like, she waited till he was dead or dying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And my recollection of events, correct me if I'm wrong, is that according to all evidence, there were no other human beings in the house during this time frame other than Allison and her husband Kevin. So it's not a situation where maybe someone broke in and did this to him. It comes down to this man is dead is either through his actions or his, his misstep by falling down the stairs or, or it's because of her beating him. There's no mysterious third party. Has to be one of those two options.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Correct.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And he had been out drinking with friends that night, and there had been some texts. The state sort of said, oh, they're kind of tiptoeing around each other. There seems to be tension. I. That's their interpretation. I thought it could, I mean, maybe, or it could just be like, you know, him, he's like, oh, I'll be out a little bit longer. And I think that he had him texting other people saying he was gonna. Had to go home to his wife and stuff. So, I mean, like, I, I don't know, it didn't really seem that ominous to me. But anyways, the jury apparently felt that this was not a case where the state proved its case and they acquitted Allison K. Davis of. Of this charge. So she, she is no longer on the hook. And, and that's kind of that. That's it. So Baldwin and his team succeeded in that endeavor. And there was, you know, even, even despite, you know, again, the persecutorial martyr complex around Judge Gull. I think that's telling that he succeeded in this. In this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He succeeded.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I remember thinking when we covered it up earlier, I believe we read the pca or big chunks of the pca.

[Anya Cain]

We did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought there was a pretty strong case there. Ultimately, though, you have to respect the jury's verdict. And that's not just talk. I mean, we really have to. Because the fact of the matter is, Anya and I did not have the time to go and sit and listen to all the testimony in this, in this proceeding. The jury heard it all.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they got to hear all this. They got to look the witnesses in the eye. They got to hear what the witnesses said. They got to hear the arguments that the state presented. They got to hear the arguments that Mr. Baldwin and his co counsel in this case, I believe it was Max Wiley, got to hear what they presented and they ultimately reached the verdict. They did. And you have to respect that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. The thing that bothers me the most is the temperature. But at the same time, as you said, they got to hear the totality of everything and this is the decision they made. And so that's that. That was the kind of. I always, I always like to cover the, the final verdict or the final outcome of a case we previously covered just to kind of get people. Oh, yeah, we mentioned this, but here's more information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I said based on what I saw in the pca, I may have gone a different way, but I haven't been paying attention. And so it's entirely possible that the jury was privy to more things. You just have to assume the people who got here at all, you really have to respect the analysis and the opinions they reached.

[Anya Cain]

Right. And in my research in this, I was looking at the. My case documents. But it's also some coverage from Wayne.com and 21 Alive. So I'll include those sources in our show notes. The next case is a new one that we haven't covered before. It's also in Indiana, but it involves a place that you and I have hung out around mostly a lot. So this is the Hendricks. So my sources of this are the Indianapolis Star. So two articles from them. It's an incident that occurred around the Hendricks County Courthouse. Hendricks county is to the west of Indianapolis. Some of the best people ever live around there and hang out with us a lot in Danville, which is where Hendricks County Courthouse is. Danville's adorable. It's really cute. I love Danville. Love hanging out with these people. Sometimes we go to the Mayberry Cafe. It's really cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The Mayberry Cafe is indeed a restaurant that is inspired by the Andy Griffith Show.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The first time I took you there, because of course I'm going to take on you there. Obviously you'd never even seen the Andy Griffith Show.

[Anya Cain]

I had not, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you didn't appreciate all of the care that went into this fine establishment.

[Anya Cain]

Exactly. And I have really fond memories there. I remember you and I strolling around this courthouse, which is beautiful, as many Indiana courthouses are. And I remember thinking, this is before we were a couple of. I remember thinking like, you were the best person ever. It's like, this guy's great and I'm obsessed with him. So you know that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's very sweet.

[Anya Cain]

I always have, like, positive memory. I have always positive associations about Hendricks county because of that. And, you know, it's very nice, but unfortunately, something very bad happened there. If you're like us, you sometimes struggle to lose weight or maintain a healthy weight.

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We love Delete Me. We've used it long before this company even sponsored us. The reason we love it is because it works. And to be frank, we've run into our fair share of weirdness online. That includes all manner of threats, a few stalkers, and one person who even said they wanted to harm Kevin so that they could marry me. So fun. The thing is, when you run a true crime podcast and you talk about some of these cases, you just attract the attention of some people who are kind of unhinged. And seriously, that can be pretty scary.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

So obviously a huge tragedy. And this, you know, this guy is a habitual criminal, and it's just like, took the lives of two kids because he's awful. I mean, like, just like terrible, terrible outcome. So you can imagine the. It's enraging for people who knew this family, I imagine. So let's go to May 5, 2025. Hendricks county deputies are bringing in inmates for hearings at the Hendricks County Courthouse, the place where we were just talking about bringing them from the jail. And one of the inmates getting. Going into the courthouse is Pettis on that day. Then suddenly an older man sort of steps out. He was lying in wait. He pulls a gun at them. He pulls a gun on them, aims it at the group of inmates and deputies, and fires a shot. Deputies return fire, hitting and killing this man. Turns out it was Mark Vaughter. It was the great grandfather of these children. The obvious supposition or, you know, guess that you want to make is he was aiming at Pettis, the man who killed his grandchildren, and this was some sort of revenge thing. But nobody in the group of inmates and deputies would. Was hit. The deputies fire back, hitting Vodder. He dies at the scene. Ultimately, no one was hurt except for him. And this really does kind of speak to me about revenge and why it's. It's often a. A very cinematic kind of theme. And like, fictional stories and epic stories of revenge. And most of the time, it's not, you know, to quote the Sopranos, it's not going to be cinematic, and it's not going to be successful. And I think, unfortunately, that's what happened to this man. I think we can all perhaps understand the rage he would have felt about losing two grandchildren in a horrible way just because of one man's callous carelessness about what he was doing in a vehicle. So I think we can. We can understand that, but we can also say that when you do that, I mean, what if he had hit one of the deputies? What if he'd hit one of the other inmates who had nothing to do with his situation?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

You know, when you take the law into your own hands, a lot can go wrong. And in. In this case, his family is now going through the loss of him. His life mattered. Now they lost him too, on top of all this other stuff. So at the end of the day, it's very. It can be very glamorous to kind of praise vigilantism and, oh, yeah, you got to step in and do it. But, like, it just never works out, and it just usually just makes everything worse. So I think that's important to remember as understandable and as human as the impulses.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's always better to just let the professionals who run our justice system, let them do their jobs and have faith in that system and just concentrate on your own life and being there for your family. And, yeah, you don't do this.

[Anya Cain]

So next we're going to go west to Nebraska. So my sources for this one are a. Is a press release from the Nebraska State Patrol, as well as Bailey Coke's Facebook page and her blog. So. So this is. Occurred in Nebraska's Dawson County. And this is the. The. So the Dawson County Sheriff's Office heads out and gets to the scene of a what appears to be a murder suicide. And it's at the home of Jeremy and Bailey Coke. This is a married couple. They have two sons, Hudson and Asher. Jeremy was 42. Bailey was 41. And then the boys were 18 and 16. Hudson had just graduated from high school. So all four have fatal knife wounds. There's a knife found at the scene. And what. What investigators surmise is that Jeremy Koch killed himself after killing his whole family with a knife. Obviously a really horrible, horrible situation. But this is one of those things where social media kind of, you know, like, you wonder, like, who. Who could annihilate their whole family like that? How could this happen, but social media kind of filled in some of the gaps on this one. So this is a, this is a situation where Bailey had actually for years posted about Jeremy, her husband's mental health struggles and how that affected their family and what they were going through. And I, from looking at this, I don't, I don't know anything about diagnosis. I, I tried to look at some of the posts and whatnot, but I don't know what the specific diagnosis was. And I think it's really important before we delve into this to remember and we're actually going to have someone on the show to talk about their experience with this soon. But like mental illness, even illnesses or disorders that can cause psychosis do not necessarily mean that someone's going to be violent. Some, some people might be and that might be a manifestation of their mental illness. Others won't be. So just because someone has a mental illness does not mean that they're going to stab their whole family to death. Maybe they're going to do more self harm or maybe they're not going to be violent at all. Maybe they're just going to be, it's just going to be something that is weighing on their mind. So I think it's just, let's remember that and, and let's remember that. I mean, I've heard from a lot of people who have struggled with their own mental illness. Like a lot of when, when we see violence, it's people making bad choices or it's psychopathy or it's, you know, people being horrible narcissists. It's not, it's not always just mental illness. And it's really important. We don't want to stigmatize people who are mentally ill further than they've already been stigmatized. So anyways, this is the description of the Facebook page run by Bailey Coke, quote, high school sweethearts, now together over 25 years. Our love story consists of fighting suicidal thoughts and attempts publicly. So, you know, you're not alone. We fight with you. And our God is stronger than this battle. End quote. So unfortunately, when I kind of looked some of this on social media, you see a lot of discourse, as they say. You see a lot of people flooding the comments of this dead woman's Facebook page about trying to help her husband and basically blaming her for what happened. You know, like you were, you're a bad mom because you didn't take your kids and just leave him. I saw on other social media posts men saying, well, she was putting his business out there for everyone. So of Course he snapped and killed her. First of all, shame on everyone saying that. I really feel like, what, what are you adding to? Like, I mean, like why do I. Who. I don't understand the mindset of someone who feels the need to even do that. Like, like it's always free and easy to shut up, like when someone's died. But second of all, we don't know their situation. We don't know them. And second of all, I don't think those are very interesting conversations. First of all, I don't think a man is justified in killing his whole family because he doesn't like his wife's Facebook posts. And also, there's no indication to be anywhere here that he felt like his privacy was being violated. When I look at these Facebook posts or blogs, regardless of how I personally feel about them or what I would do in that situation, I, I, not I, I see a woman who is in a lonely struggle, who is trying to find community. And I think we can all understand that. And I think it is a lonely struggle when you have a spouse dealing with something to this magnitude. So that's one thought. And I also saw some kind of hints at, unfortunately, you know, what ultimately happened. And this was from her blog. This is an incident that, piecing together the timeline, I think happened in 2012. She talked about multiple suicide attempts and whatnot. So quote, he's not a murderer. But at one point his brain told him he had to be. This man, this loving husband and father of two boys, this son, brother and friend goes out of his way to help anyone and everyone. This homecoming king, college graduate and successful small business owner. As we crawled into bed, Jeremy stopped and looked at me. Darkness. Evil. My husband was nowhere to be found physically here. His brain was overtaken by med induced psychosis. He slowly walked toward me and I backed up against the wall like a scene in a movie. And I picked up the phone behind my back. I was able to distract my husband with the words, hey Mike, it's Bailey. As I actually dialed 91 1, I spoke to the operator as though it was Mike, a friend of Jeremy's, and told my husband to go unlock the door because Mike would be stopping by. It worked. Thank God it worked. I was out of the corner and police were on their way. When they arrived, Jeremy explained how he needed to kill me in order to protect me. He couldn't be too far from me or he would lose the game and then lose me forever. But if he killed me, we would be together forever, only by his hands. That was the rule. My husband was involuntarily committed to an inpatient mental health facility that night. End quote. Okay. So obviously a pretty serious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's terrifying.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Again, people want to pick apart her choices or leaving him or not leaving him. I mean, the thing is, you know, she's, she's got two kids with him. If she kicks him out one day, I mean, maybe that sparks him coming back and killing everybody. Like we need to think bigger than one family. I think when we talk about this and when a mental illness might prompt someone to be violent, it's very easy to judge and say, well, I would have just taken my kids and ran at that point. Maybe you would. Maybe that would have worked out for you. Who knows? I think for me, I mean, what I'm gonna say is probably not super popular, but I'm gonna tell you, having like looked at a lot of these cases and having talked to people who have been on both sides of this and, and whatnot, I think we need to have long term options, possibly involuntary commitment options for people that are not that, that are not horrible, inhumane options. Okay. The reason why nobody. One of the reasons I think people are uncomfortable with that is because of the history in this country where people were with issues, were essentially warehoused in filthy, horrible, inhumane conditions where they were subjected to all manner of abuse. So no one wants to return to that. No one should want to return to that. That's horrible. It's, it's, it's disgraceful that it happened. But basically what's replaced that is, well, diy. You know, it's on your family to deal with this and, you know, wrangle insurance and deal with all the headache and heartache that comes from this and possibly be in danger. At the end of the day, that's not acceptable either. That's completely unacceptable. What we need is for humane, nice to use, you know, to, for lack of a better term, places where people can go in the long term while they deal with some of these issues. And it needs to be not stigmatized and it needs to be something that a loving partner would be okay putting their spouse in. You know, I, I just don't think we have a lot of those kind of options anymore or if maybe we never did. But I think that's. Some people are not going to thrive on the outside without a lot of intensive work. Or maybe some people will never thrive on the outside and that's okay, but there's still people and they need to be taken care of in a place where they can't hurt themselves and others. And I, I just see this and I, I think maybe that would have been the best thing, but that was not available to this family. I don't believe, I don't, I don't think that's available to anyone right now. But it, I, it's unpopular because I think it would take a lot of money and it's reminiscent of bad stuff that happened in the past. You know, it's easier to just cheap out and then people in those institutions suffer. But if you poured a lot of money into it, I think it could be a good option for everybody. And I think right now it increasingly feels like we are walking around in an open air mental asylum. That's not good. That's not good for anybody. That, that's putting the people that is the worst for, I think are the people who are dealing with mental illness. They don't have the resources. They're on the streets, they're dealing with addictions on top of everything else. It's not right. And in some cases, maybe it could help some people live a better life and then maybe others, if, if they can't deal with it on the outside, if they can't take their medication, if they can't live a life that's safe for them and others, then perhaps it could be a humane option for them. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think you make a lot of good points, but it comes down to whether or not we as a society are committed to having the resources, making the resources available to make something like that a reality. I've been very close to situations where people are raising a child with severe mental health concerns. And these are people who may be treated very horribly by this child and be receiving physical beatings from this child, but they don't have anywhere to turn. And if there were places that were humane, that's a very important part of it, that were humane and well run, that would be an option. And I have no doubt in my mind that lives would be saved.

[Anya Cain]

I saw something where Willowbrook was a famous mental asylum, I believe, in New York. Geraldo Rivera exposed abuses going on there. Very disturbing situation. And I saw, I forget where I saw this, but it's like we've gone from having Willowbrook to a thousand tiny Willowbrooks in poorly run group homes or in some cases, people just going on the street because the family can't deal with it anymore and they're an adult and they're, you know, shuffled off. It's disgraceful. It's a sign of a Dysfunctional society.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Some of the stuff in small group homes really is quite disturbing.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm going to tell you, if you had a situation where you people were pouring money into this, and again, you need a lot of money to make a place humane and good. You need to attract good staff, you need to pay them well. You need to have a good situation. But I think the quality of life, improvement that everyone would see would be tangible and it would be something that we could be proud of as a nation. Because I don't know the story of this particular family other than what Bailey posted, but if what she posted was accurate, if this guy was just a loving husband who dealt with a mental illness and that was it, then he, he doesn't deserve this either. Even though he was the perpetrator, his mental illness led to something tragic. His sons did not deserve this. Bailey did not deserve this. None of them deserved this. And maybe giving them an option that felt humane and loving while also keeping them safe, keeping everyone safe in this situation, that would have been the best outcome. And I, I feel like people get uncomfortable when you talk about forcible commitment or putting people away for a long time. And I think we need to get more and more comfortable with the situation because what we're doing right now is not working. It's not safe. You know, like, it benefits people with milder situations that can be treated on the outside, perhaps, but it's to the detriment of people with more extreme symptoms who are, who are having trouble. And it, I don't know, it makes me very sad. Anyway, so let's go to California. This is our last case of the day. This is going to be from the Associated Press. And this is a case I'm sure a lot of you have been following. I think we, I got some texts from one of our friends about this. It is the, the murders of Jose and Mary Louise or Kitty Menendez, by their sons, Eric and Lyle Menendez. This was one of the it cases of the late 80s to 1990s. You know, this was one of those cases people were really following, especially the first trial. I think there was less public access to the second. So the interest kind of went down a bit. But, you know, the story we were all kind of shown and told was these two, you know, very wealthy family in Beverly Hills, the two sons brutally murder their parents, gun them down. And what the defense argued, at least in the first trial, was that they, they had been subjected to abuse from their father Jose, severe abuse, sexual abuse. And that went into the Killings. And what the state contended is there are spoiled rich boys who wanted the money, they wanted the inheritance. So it's, you know, their dad was this powerful record executive and they were both 8. So I think they were 18 and 21. So it was one of those things where people, you know, they were ultimately convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. So a couple of notes, like, there were kind of shenanigans in this. Like, I think Lyle Menendez at one point offered his ex girlfriend money to like lie for him in court to say, like, Jose came on to her as well. You know, there, there was, there were a couple of things where, you know, it was like their honesty was put into question. So I think that made some people wonder, like, was that was the abuse they talked about just an excuse. But on the other hand, they had cousins, two cousins at least I think it was Andy Kano and Diane Vandermolen. They testified that the brothers, or at least, you know, Lyle and then Eric separately told them that they had been abused by their father sexually and that there were also family, family members testifying that, you know, it was a very dysfunctional family. And I think Vandermolen even testified that she told Kitty, the mom, and that she basically like, was like, no, that's not true. You're lying. So, you know, this kind of got some more attention in 2023 when a member of the boy band Menudo, Roy Rosello, tested, kind of came out and said that Jose Menendez raped him as well when he was only 14. They drugged him and raped him. That obviously gave a lot of credence to the Menendez brother's story. Because if he's doing it to his sons, you know, then he's doing it to other people, other boys he's in contact with. So what's happened recently is that Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Jessick has re sentenced the brothers he sent. He just changed. So he had the option to sentence them to manslaughter or kind of like change it to. To that where they would have been released from prison immediately. But he ended up switching it from life in prison without parole to 50 years to life. That means they are currently up for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Parole, at least have the potential of being paroled, right?

[Anya Cain]

They have the potential, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's going to be ultimately up to the parole board.

[Anya Cain]

That is correct. The previous LA County District Attorney was George Gascon, and he opened the door to this by asking a judge to reduce their sentence. But the, the current D A Was, was con. Honestly concerned about that and felt like, you know, this was not the way to do things and this was not right. So they were, they became opposed to it. But now, you know, it is up to the state board. The, the hearing at this thing saw the brothers. They spoke, they apologized, they acknowledged what they did. Family members smoke. Inmates spoke about how the Menendez brothers helped them in prison and changed their lives. Prison officials spoke about them being rehabilitated. And like, I guess I'm curious about your take on this. I think what they did to the parents was absolutely premeditated, in cold blood, first degree murder. No question, that's what they did. But I really do think the abuse was real. I believe that. I think the abuse allegations against Jose and, and kind of the idea that Kitty was covering it up are credible. And I do think that complicates things. And I don't know if we had that understanding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think we had that understanding in the 1990s. I think people are a lot more sophisticated and knowledgeable about those issues now in 2025 than they were back then. And I tend to think that if something like this happened today, they very likely would not have received such an extreme sentence.

[Anya Cain]

Like, nobody wants murderers to smear their victims and be able to get away with a crime based on saying, well, you know, he was abusing me. If that's not true, I just think there's enough. When I look at it, I see that, I see enough there that I'm like, yeah, I believe, I believe he was. I believe that. And I think at the time, people, society, the media sees these kids, sees, sees the Menendez brothers, you know, running around in flashy cars and all this stuff and having all this money that they inherited from their murdered parents. And they see like, oh, they're laughing it up, they're yucking it up. But I, I see, I see people who are impulsive and maybe dealing with what they went through. And so I, I guess I'm like, I'm, I'm okay with, I don't. And based on the testimony of people who talk about the pro social things they've done in prison, based on the testimony of people who talk about, you know, how they've been rehabilitated prison officials, I, I feel like for me, I don't know that society is served or protected by the continued incarceration of them. And I, I'm okay with a parole board reconsidering this. I really don't like to jump on bandwagons in True crime because it's like, you know, you, you're like, oh, the Menendez brothers, they sound great. And then you look into and you're like, oh my gosh, this is a nightmare. But I really can't, I really don't necessarily see a reason they've acknowledged what they did at this point. They've, you know, they said this was cold blooded, this was bad, like we did the wrong thing, we put our families through something awful. You know, I, I, so, yeah, I, I, I see this as something where it would be appropriate to look at it. I don't think the original, you know, I, I don't, it's not that I think that, oh, it was so awful that they were charged with first degree murder or anything like that. What they did was not manslaughter. But I do think that they've served enough time that it's okay for a parole board to kind of consider and maybe they can have some years of freedom and do some good. I don't know. I, if we want people to be rehabilitated, this seems like a case where we can hear that out. And it also seems like a case where I don't, they did not attack a stranger. They did not like just attack some random person. I think the abuse allegations are credible and if they attacked their abuser and person complicit in the abuse, then to me that, that does weigh in. What, you know, like they're, if they were traumatized by their father, you know, their brains were going to be different and affected by that trauma. And it's all relevant, it's all, it's relevant to discuss and I think it was too easily dismissed back in the day. Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us. That's audible.com wondery us. So, yeah. So do you agree that. I agree you're up for, you're open to some leniency in this case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, I guess we'll see what happens next. They're not out of prison, but this is obviously a pretty big step in that direction, potentially.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I think it's time for you to temporarily take off your oversized hat and take a well deserved bow for your great job preparing this week's episode.

[Anya Cain]

Meanwhile, the listeners are booing and saying, no, no, I, I appreciate that. You know, I, I'm really excited about the work you're doing, so I was happy to do this and explore some cases. To everyone who suggested one of these cases, thank you for, you know, posting it in our Facebook group or sending it to us. We always really appreciate the amount of engagement you guys, you know, send our way with the, with the cheat sheets and it kind of helps us find some interesting ones. So we really appreciate that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I was, we had a great time this week in Columbus. We had a live appearance there that we really had a lot of fun with and met a lot of great people.

[Anya Cain]

It was a blast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And apologize, apologies all the people who weren't able to get in because it sold out very, very quickly. So we're going to try to do more things like that in the future. Great event, great time. We got like two pieces of news in Columbus and like, one of them deeply humiliating on the worst level possible and the other was like, really exciting. Should I talk about these bits of news?

[Anya Cain]

Hit them. Yeah, do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there is a wonderful listener we have. Actually, all of our listeners are wonderful. I looked at the demographics and it says murder sheet listeners are the best people in the world. That's what the report said from the audience analysis report. Of course, one listener has always stood out in my mind. I don't think I have permission to use her name, so I won't. But she was like the very first listener to ever email us about the show. And so I always get always happy to hear from her. And at one point she gave Anya a little train whistle. And so I think there are a couple of times, oh, it's the cane train. And we've blown it on the show and laughed and had a great time. And so she's one of the people at this event. It's great to meet her in person. And we say, oh, didn't you enjoy hearing the cane train whistle? And she said, I didn't hear the whistle. So what happened?

[Anya Cain]

The whistle's been dead for 40 years.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just hear you say, oh, here's the whistle. And a moment later, Anya is cackling.

[Anya Cain]

That sounds about right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So why didn't anyone Tell us this.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks, guys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What it is, is we are so unprofessional. We record in an environment where there's always, like, dogs walking around. I'm always, like, coughing or cyan or eating chips. There's all these noises in the background. So we have this special audio editing software which goes through and removes everything except for our voices. And so apparently, when we've blown this majestic cane train whistle, we weren't thinking, and we didn't realize that that audio was also getting erased. And so we just made ourselves look the fools.

[Anya Cain]

What's so annoying is this thing takes out my beautiful cane train whistle, but it won't take out Lanny click clacking with her nails in, like, a different room. She's not even the same room with us. And it picks that up. So what's going on here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So. So should this be a rare episode? We don't run the audio software so people can hear the cane train whistle?

[Anya Cain]

I think so. I think this thing deserves to be heard. Ready?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do it.

[Anya Cain]

All right, get ready, everybody. This is. This is happening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So hopefully you heard the whistle. We. Hopefully we've all had a ball with that.

[Anya Cain]

We all had fun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So thank you. And we're so, so humiliated.

[Anya Cain]

It embarrassing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the other thing is, for some reason, I've talked a lot on the show about how there's this. I love fish sandwiches, and there's this great place for fish sandwiches in Columbus called Ye Olde Fish House. And so I've talked on the show about it enough that when I got to town, like, everybody is, like, buttonholing me to make sure I know that Ye Olde Fish House has now expanded their hours of operation. They're just something very nice about everybody. Obviously, you only know I'm interested in this if you listen to the show and then you wanted to give me good news so that I thought that was very nice, that everybody was doing that.

[Anya Cain]

People chasing down the car, beating on the windows.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also very nice that Ye Olde Fish House, which has great fish at a reasonable price, generous portions. It's nice that they've expanded their hours. When we were in Columbus, we stopped by to visit my childhood best friend who I haven't seen in, like, 25 years. And one of the first things he says is, Kevin, Ye Old Fish House has expanded their hours.

[Anya Cain]

The whole town was a buzz.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if you are anywhere near the Columbus area, I think you've got to make it to Ye Olde Fish House and have these fish sandwiches are very good, generous portions, reasonably priced. Mr. Pibb on tap. It's right there for the taking.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For a pittance.

[Anya Cain]

For pittance. And yeah. And just. We love Columbus. So thanks to everyone who came out. Love Bespoke, which was the wonderful business that hosted us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Formerly known as the Swine.

[Anya Cain]

And yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That wasn't a joke that you made.

[Anya Cain]

That was not a joke that. Some people were confused. They're like, is this part of Anya's weird expanded universe? Nope. They were called the Swine and Dine. Now they're called Bespoke. Very elevant, very fitting. And the owners were super nice and we really appreciate them. And also thanks to Bonnie for organizing everything. We had a blast. And so we'll be putting out that live episode soon and you'll get to hear us be really somewhat awkward. But. But hopefully it was still a good experience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And like the bookstore I went to when I was a kid, still in operation. This is the bookstore where I learned to love reading. They're doing. They're accepting pre orders for the book.

[Anya Cain]

So that's a. Viewpoint Books.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Viewpoint Books in Columbus, Indiana. So support Viewpoint.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And thank you all so much for listening. As you know, we have the. The book coming out, Shadow of the Bridge. Order that. You can order that on Amazon. We can order that. There's going to be an audiobook, so I'm sure. Who's on out yet?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm sure whoever does the audio would be very carefully chosen and I'm sure it would be an exciting choice for us all.

[Anya Cain]

I think it definitely will be, as long as they're not a diva. But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How could that possibly be the case?

[Anya Cain]

And then we. Yeah, we're gonna be doing a lot of events around the book, I think when it comes out in August. So just stay tuned. And if you have any suggestions, feel free to always email [e-mail] Is that it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that it?

[Anya Cain]

Did we do it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Look, you've done this so masterfully. There's no stupid, embarrassing banter or anything. You just. You run a tight train.

[Anya Cain]

I'm a very strict conductor. Conduct dress. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening. We really appreciate it. And talk soon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do [e-mail] murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.