The Cheat Sheet: Retrials and Records

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - The Cheat Sheet: Retrials and Records

Episode Overview

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain, a seasoned journalist, and Kevin Greenlee, an experienced attorney, delve into the complexities surrounding retrials and the release of previously undisclosed records in various high-profile true crime cases. They adopt a journalistic lens, emphasizing the importance of due process, the dangers of social media sensationalism, and the ethical considerations in handling sensitive information.

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1. The Tragic Murder of Austin Metcalfe in Frisco, Texas

The episode opens with a somber discussion of the Frisco, Texas case involving the murder of 17-year-old high school student Austin Metcalfe. Austin, a student at Frisco Memorial High School, was fatally stabbed by Carmelo Anthony, a student from a rival school, Centennial High School, during a rain-soaked track meet.

Incident Details:

• Confrontation: Metcalfe and Anthony had a confrontation under a tent set up for Metcalfe's school. Disputes escalated, leading to Anthony stabbing Metcalfe.
• Race and Social Media Backlash: Despite the lack of evidence indicating a racial motive, the incident became a contentious topic online. Áine points out the unwarranted racial framing:

  "There's nothing there. I can't. People... are trying to make assumptions about a case before we even have a trial or anything." ([06:53])

Impact on Families:

• Both families have suffered threats, including swatting and death threats.

  "People with true crime brains... just make things worse for both families." ([07:14])

Involvement of White Supremacists:

• Jake Lang, a known white supremacist and a figure involved in the January 6 Capitol riot, exacerbates tensions by staging a "Protect White Americans" rally at the scene.

  "He's pointing out dark stains on the ground... throwing a Protect White Americans rally..." ([08:30])

Call for Responsible Reporting:

• The hosts express frustration over the media frenzy that divert attention from the pursuit of justice:

  "It's not about justice. It's about feeding the beast of content... It's just a tragedy." ([11:32])

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2. Retrial of Judge Jeffrey Ferguson: From Hung Jury to Guilty Verdict

Case Background: Judge Jeffrey Ferguson, a 74-year-old with a distinguished career, was involved in a domestic incident where he accidentally shot his wife during an argument. Initially claiming it was an accident, the prosecution contested this, citing his extensive firearms experience.

Trial Proceedings:

• First Trial: Ended in a hung jury despite an unconventional step where attorneys conducted additional closing arguments.

  "This trial ended with a hung jury in a mistrial." ([16:06])

• Retrial: Soon after, Ferguson was found guilty, facing up to 40 years to life in prison.

  "He was found guilty and is facing a maximum prison term of 40 years to life." ([17:26])

Key Factors Influencing Verdict:

• Firearms Expertise: His familiarity with guns diminished the likelihood of the shooting being accidental.

  "If a person who has been using firearms all of his life is handling them... it's much less likely for an accident to occur." ([18:47])

• Defense's Account: Ferguson's explanation of removing his gun from an ankle holster was deemed inconsistent and unconvincing.

  "His accounting for the situation didn't make sense." ([20:22])

Ethical Accountability:

• The hosts underscore that regardless of Ferguson's esteemed position, accountability remains paramount:

  "Just because you've done good doesn't mean you get a blank check or a get out of jail free card." ([21:15])

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3. Attempted Mass Shooting in Mooresville, Indiana

Case Overview: An individual in Mooresville, Indiana, allegedly identified as transgender, was charged with conspiracy to commit murder and intimidation. The incident occurred when law enforcement intercepted threats made via Discord, referencing admiration for previous mass shooters and specific violent intent.

Preemptive Measures:

• Law Enforcement Response: Detectives acted swiftly based on credible tips, leading to the defendant's arrest before any harm was actualized.

  "The mass shooting was averted... Police caught this before it happened." ([26:57])

Legal Proceedings:

• Competency Hearing: Amidst debates over the defendant's mental state, a competency evaluation was mandated despite initial objections.

  "There was a concern about the defendant's competency, leading to a mandated mental health evaluation." ([32:45])

• Bond and Release Conditions: High bond amounts were set, coupled with stringent release conditions, making pretrial release improbable.

  "Bond was set at $1 million in property or surety and half a million in cash." ([34:03])

Discussion on Media and Social Influence:

• The hosts explore the phenomenon of "social contagions," where mass shooters inspire others through media glorification, emphasizing the need for responsible reporting to prevent copycat incidents:

  "We're not going to glorify them... to make it clear that doing something horrible won't gain you notoriety." ([25:35])

• Mental Health and Preventative Action: Highlighting the urgency of addressing mental health issues among youth to avert such tragedies:

  "It's imperative... checking on your kids' mental health, making sure they're not like depressed." ([30:02])

---

4. Release of Robert F. Kennedy Assassination Files

Background: The National Archives recently released approximately 10,000 pages of previously undisclosed documents related to Robert F. Kennedy's assassination. Áine contrasts this with the more extensively covered JFK assassination files.

Content and Public Reaction:

• Bulk of Released Documents: A significant portion consists of mundane correspondences and unverified tips, leading to limited public interest:

  "So it's like 10,000 pages and nothing on. I love it." ([40:07])

• Autopsy Photos Controversy: Federal releases included unsettling autopsy photos, sparking criticism for lacking sensitivity and contributing little to the understanding of the case:

  "There are autopsy photos of Senator Kennedy's dead body. What purpose does that serve?" ([42:22])

Comparison with JFK Files:

• The hosts note that unlike JFK's bungled autopsy, Robert F. Kennedy's was conducted meticulously, rendering the autopsy photos unnecessary and disrespectful:

  "In the case of Senator Kennedy, the autopsy was done by the book... releasing these photos seems useless." ([43:47])

Future Coverage:

• Potential Deep Dive: Áine expresses interest in thoroughly examining the released RFK documents to uncover any new insights, advocating for responsible analysis over sensationalism:

  "I want to do it right... I'll go through them all before doing any big thing." ([46:05])

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5. Closing Remarks and Announcements

Upcoming Book:

• The hosts announce their forthcoming book, Shadow of the Bridge, set for release in August. They encourage listeners to purchase it through various platforms, including Bookshop.org and Amazon, and tease details about the audiobook version.

Merchandise Promotion:

• Murder Sheet merchandise is promoted, highlighting comfortable and stylish shirts that signify a listener's allegiance to the podcast community.

Final Thoughts:

• Áine and Kevin reinforce the importance of responsible consumption and dissemination of true crime content, urging listeners to prioritize factual accuracy and ethical considerations in their engagement with such narratives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain on Social Media Backlash:

  "It's a tragedy for both of these families. Carmelo Anthony's facing possibly a pretty serious sentence here, and Austin Metcalf is dead." ([07:22])

• Kevin Greenlee on Due Process:

  "It's not about justice. It's not about due process. It's just about... letting anger get the best of us." ([12:27])

• Áine Cain on Mental Health:

  "If your child is... keeping shrines, that's a bad sign." ([35:07])

• Áine Cain on Responsible Reporting:

  "We need to wait for the facts of the case to come out. There's absolutely no evidence that this confrontation or the subsequent stabbing was racially motivated in any way." ([12:25])

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Murder Sheet navigates the intricate landscape of true crime reporting, emphasizing the necessity for meticulous investigation, restraint in public discourse, and the protection of affected families from undue harm. Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee advocate for a balanced approach that honors due process and curtails the spread of sensationalism, reinforcing the podcast's commitment to responsible journalism in the realm of true crime.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

This episode contains discussion of murder and violence.

[Anya Cain]

So today we have a range of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Cases all in the United States.

[Anya Cain]

This time we are going to Texas, California, our home state, the Hoosier state, Indiana, and then we're circling back to kind of go to California again. But also it's sort of things happening in Washington D.C. so kind of an.

Odd route for the cane train. And speaking of that, a word of warning, A very kind listener sent us a train whistle for the cane train. So you will be hearing that whistle at some point or point during the program and perhaps later it will be done more effectively.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

And this is the Murder Sheet.

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

The cheat sheet, retrials and records. So I also thank you sincerely to the person who sent me that train whistle. That is such a cute thing and I just really appreciate it.

We've gotten a lot of, despite Anya's, we've got a lot of fun out of that. Over the last week we've gotten that.

Kevin's insulting my train whistling abilities, but he doesn't even know how to really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whistle in real life.

[Anya Cain]

So I don't think he should be talking.

Fair enough.

All right, so let's talk about a very depressing and awful story out of Texas. And this is of course Frisco, Texas. We already covered this case once. It's the murder of Austin Metcalfe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was a 17 year old high.

[Anya Cain]

School student at Frisco Memorial High School. And he was at a track meet where another student, a young man named Carmelo Anthony, who is at, I believe Centennial High School. So, you know, like different competing schools. There's some kind of confrontation. It's raining out. There's a tent set up for the students at Metcalf School. Metcalf tells Carmelo Anthony he's in the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wrong tent, he should leave.

[Anya Cain]

There's some kind of confrontation. Carmelo Anthony ends up Stabbing Metcalfe and he dies. So this is a tragedy. It's a horrible, horrible tragedy. Unfortunately, like, so many awful tragedies, people on the Internet want to make it worse. I mean, let's just not pretend like it's anything else. You have people, because awesome Metcalf was white and Carmelo Anthony is black, you have people making this a huge racial issue, and we're going to talk about that because I. There's nothing there. I can't. People, like. People with, like, true crime brain to the point where they're, like, trying to, like, kind of just make assumptions about a case before we even have a trial or anything. Information is known is just, like, not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not right.

[Anya Cain]

It's not good. It should be. It should be behavior that should get you publicly shamed, in my opinion, because it just makes things worse for. I mean, at this point, Carmelo Anthony's family has been threatened. They've been getting death threats. Unacceptable. You have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Austin Metcalfe's family has been swatted several times.

[Anya Cain]

That's where people call the police and say, oh, something's happening at this house, and the police show up. It's. It's like, it's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not right.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, no matter what, this is a tragedy for both of these families. Okay? Carmelo Anthony's facing possibly, you know, a pretty serious sentence here, and awesome Metcalf is dead. But you have people who want to make this, like, some stupid debate. So this is what's happening. White supremacists have gotten involved with this case. A guy named. Specifically a guy named Jake Lang. He's a pretty much avowed white supremacist. He's actually running for the US Senate in Florida. So that's fun for Florida. And he was one of the people who stormed the US Capitol on January 6, 2021. He was like all of those people. He was granted a pardon by United States President Donald Trump. So that case did not go to trial. But he was accused of. He's not accused of being one of the people just wandering around inside the building. He's accused him. I mean, he was photographed hitting at police officers with a baseball bat and a shield. So, you know, violent assaults on law enforcement. And he shows up in Frisco to make things worse, and he's, like, filming.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Himself trespassing inside the stadium where Metcalf died.

[Anya Cain]

He's pointing out dark stains on the ground. The police had to release a statement. Being like, he's not even on the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right side of the stadium.

[Anya Cain]

That's not Even where it happened, he's just, you know, I mean, it's like it would be funny if it wasn't so serious. Then he threw some sort of Protect White Americans rally which had very few attendees. And in the middle of it, Jeff Metcalf, who's Austin's father, his grieving father calls him up and tells him to stop. This exchange happened over the phone in front of media. Jeff Metcalf said, quote, you're trying to create more race divide than bridging the gap. I do not condone anything you do. And this is what this piece of work says to Austin Metcalfe's father. Quote, you're creating more Austin Metcalfe with your weakness, sir.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What a disgusting thing to say to this man.

[Anya Cain]

Like, I just can't even get appalling. The inhumanity, the bottom feeding grifters that scurry out from the, like, sea floor whenever something like this happens and try to use divisive tactics. I mean, like, why can't we just wait for the facts of the case to come out? There's absolutely no evidence that this confrontation or the subsequent stabbing was racially motivated in any way. If there, if there is on either side, that will come out in trial. Otherwise we can just all shut up. And so, but I mean, unfortunately, unfortunately the mess abounds because you also had a situation where Carmelo Anthony's family had a press conference talking about. And like they have, you know, they have every right to do so, but they seem to have gotten linked up with this quote, unquote activist Dominique Alexander, who the Dallas Morning News in their editorial talking about this said is, quote, not comparable to a bottom feeding racist like Lang, end quote. I think that's fair. But he, he has a history of violence. He's like a convicted. He in, he shook and hit his girlfriend at the time's two year old child. So he beat a toddler. He got probation in 2011. He's charged with felony forgery, felony theft, assault charges for being violent to the mother of his children, although she later dropped those. At the time she claimed he choked and headbutted her. So it's like, where are these people? Like, where are they getting these people? You know what I mean? Like, all these people kind of come out and try to attach themselves to a tragedy like this and take advantage of either side or either family. I mean, it's just, it's really unfortunate. I think it's, I think it's despicable and I think that people should be aware that this stuff happens because that is how families get taken advantage of. And that's how the narrative and the whole true crime discussion and discourse honestly spirals out of control to the point where it's not about Carmelo and Austin anymore. It is about. It's not about justice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not about due process.

[Anya Cain]

It's not about anything. It's just about, like, let's feed the beast of content about, like, doing hot takes about a case that's just ultimately a tragedy. It just makes me. It makes me mad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you have any tips on media.

[Anya Cain]

Manipulation going on that case or other cases, please send them to us. We will keep you anonymous. I'm very curious about the firm working that's seemingly working allegedly on behalf of the Anthony family. But they have their own agenda, I would imagine. I. It's. It's just things should be. The more I get into true crime, the more I just don't really care about anything other than what happens in court. Because what happens in court is, like a level of vetted evidence that can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Be discussed and confronted.

[Anya Cain]

That's what's important. It's not just people saying, well, somebody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Told me that, no, you have to.

[Anya Cain]

Get up on the stand and you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you, Unless you want to perjure.

[Anya Cain]

Yourself, tell the truth. We're going to, like, bring in experts who are going to talk about things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other experts may contradict them, but they're.

[Anya Cain]

Going to do so hopefully in a way that's responsible and based in fact. That's what I care about.

And there's rules, obviously, in court. You can't just come into court and introduce things that aren't relevant. There are rules. It has to be relevant. It has to be something that someone has sworn to. Yeah.

And let's just confront the obvious fact. Young teenage boys, teenage young men, they.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They make bad decisions.

[Anya Cain]

Okay? So just like we can. We can be very upset that Carmelo Anthony made the decision to stab awesome Metcalf. Maybe there'll be evidence that indicates why he did that, or maybe there was some kind of fear for his life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thing that maybe he saw the wrong.

[Anya Cain]

Thing or thought this was happening. So there might be explanations. I wouldn't say there would be any excuse, but there might be explanations. So why don't we just wait to hear that and maybe not assume that he's trying to kill somebody because they're white. And also, even more strenuously, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People going around calling Austin Metcalf racist.

[Anya Cain]

Who is, like, trying to bully Carmelo Anthony. There's no way. No one, like, no one knows this. If there's evidence to hint at anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That will come out in trial, there's no point in this social media frenzy. It does nothing but cause harm to both families.

[Anya Cain]

It really just it doesn't do anything.

Well said.

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[Anya Cain]

All right, where are we going now?

Another update. This is a recent development in a case we have covered several times here on the Cheat sheet and our source for this is a story that appeared on the website of the Cable News Network otherwise known as cnn. Not sure why I said it that way, but I did.

It was a choice.

You may remember a few weeks back we talked about the case of Judge Jeffrey Ferguson. This is a 74 year old man who during a night with his Wife. He got into an argument with her publicly. At one point, he made, like, a gun. He, like, put his hand in the shape of a gun, like he was pulling a trigger on her. Alcohol was involved. They go home, he ends up shooting her. And he contended it was a tragic accident, that he was just trying to hand the gun to her. But he does admit readily the gun was in his hand when it went off. And the prosecution says, no, it wasn't an accident. This man has experience with guns. This came to trial very recently, surprisingly recently, actually. And we ended up with a hung jury, even though the judge allowed this rare step, which, again, we talked about in a previous episode, where the jury had been deliberating for a while. They were having trouble with some of the issues. So the judge called them back in and let the attorneys from both sides.

Just do more closing arguments, sudden death penalty round.

I admired the spirit of that, but ultimately that didn't help. That trial ended, as I mentioned, with a hung jury in a mistrial. This was very recently. And meanwhile, they didn't waste any time. They didn't let grass grow under their feet. They had another trial, and that one has ended with a verdict. And the judge, perhaps not surprisingly, has been found guilty. And he's actually facing a maximum prison term of 40 years to life. And again, the man is 74 years old. And the key question that the jury had to wrestle with was whether or not it was an accident when he pulled the trigger that shot the gun that killed his wife. And I think one thing that was crucial to them, I'm guessing, is the fact that this judge has a lot of experience handling firearms. I've only handled firearms, like, once in my life, and so I'm not going to handle firearms anywhere near anybody. But if I'm handling firearms and you hear they went off, yeah, that could be an accident.

That sounds like Kevin Greenlee, people would say.

Exactly. That's one of my trademarks. But if a person who has been using firearms all of his life is handling them, you would imagine even if he's had a drink or two, it becomes much less likely for an accident to occur.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did they get into how drunk he was?

[Anya Cain]

Because I'm almost surprised the defense didn't kind of, like, say he was really drunk.

They mentioned he'd been doing some drinking. I don't think I saw in the press accounts that I read a particular blood alcohol content information. He did pretty immediately. He was, like, making confessions. He was telling people on the scene, I did it. I lost control. This is a man who been a judge, he's been a prosecutor, he's had a respectable career, and now all of that is gone.

Yeah, it's brutal. I mean, it's like. And like with him being so old, he'll never get out.

And even the man that prosecuted him, they've known each other for years. It's a very strange and unusual situation. Imagine, like, it suddenly falls to you to prosecute someone you've worked with and known for years, years in a professional setting.

It's weird, but it's. I think the jury made the right call because, I mean, they're having all these feuding. He's kind of vaguely, you could say, jokingly threatening her. But then when that actually then comes to pass and there's no real clear explanation. Also, it doesn't, his story doesn't add up because he's saying his whole thing was, okay, well, I have my gun in an ankle holster.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then just to make my wife.

[Anya Cain]

Feel more comfortable, I'm gonna take that out. So it's like you're moving it from somewhere. You're not gonna, like, be able to, like, lift up your leg and shoot her that way. Like, you're taking it into your hands. That's immediately gonna be more threatening. So, like, I felt like his accounting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For the situation didn't make sense.

[Anya Cain]

Like, I, I, I, it just didn't. Like, I mean, it didn't, it didn't.

Hold for me either. So I'm not surprised by the verdict. As I mentioned, the district attorney, Todd Spitzer, he knew the man, the judge, Judge Ferguson, for decades. He said at a press conference there, justice was achieved. But I'm very sad for the Ferguson family. And in a written statement, Spitzer made the point that this was not an accident. Ferguson was trained to never point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. And he pointed the gun at his wife.

Yeah. And that's really well said.

So it is sad. This is a man who had a long and distinguished career, and he did some good in the world. But just because you've done good doesn't mean you get a blank check or a get out of jail free card. You're still accountable, just like everyone else is.

And I'll say this. The thing that really seals it for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Me is if she told him, you.

[Anya Cain]

Know, why don't you point a real gun at me?

Yes.

Like, and then that happened, and then she was killed. I mean, I, I tend to think. And also, just because someone might have a distinguished career, have a certain Background or have a certain level of wealth does not mean they're not capable of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Doing something really stupid and really horrible.

[Anya Cain]

That has devastating consequences. We all are capable of that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

None of us are immune to that.

[Anya Cain]

That's a scary thought, but it just kind of. It should keep us all holding ourselves accountable. And in a situation like this, not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Letting anger get the best of us.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, like, just. I mean, geez, like, every spouse gets annoyed with their spouse once in a while. That no one. No, no relationship is perfect and sunshine and rainbows all the time.

But what about us?

Well, I mean, except for us, obviously, as you know, when you listen. But. But, you know, but, but truly, I. It kind of blows my mind. I know when I hear responsible gun owners talk about guns. Like this is the kind of thing they would never do. You know, first of all, drinking and guns don't mix. But. But second of all, you never point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A gun at somebody, even if you're.

[Anya Cain]

Convinced the gun is empty. You don't point a gun at somebody. That is what every responsible gun owner will tell you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Unless you're trying to.

[Anya Cain]

Unless you're open to killing them. And so the fact that he did that and the fact that you could do that to somebody you vowed to love is. Is shocking to me in and of itself because I. I can't imagine that no matter how annoyed, no matter how much your husband spreads rumors about you stealing cereal and having a secret train, you know, I just can't imagine getting that angry. I just don't understand that. Kevin looks really worried.

Let's just move on. What's your next case, dear?

We're going to our home state of Indiana. This is a case I wanted to cover at the time, but we kind of just were busy, so we didn't. And just a caveat here, I.

What are your sources?

Well, actually, my sour.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I should have said my sources for the Texas one, but I didn't.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, I noted that.

Egads. So my te. My Texas sources. And this will be in the show notes, too. Dallas Morning News, C E R A News, Kara News, the Guardian website called Sedition Hunters, and the New York Post. So that was my stew of that. In this, I only relied on the legal filings that I found on my case. This person I'm trying to keep with not naming shooters, mass shooters when I can, or even attempted mass shooters because I don't want to give these people any attention. So I'm going to be doing that here. I apologize if it's confusing, but I'm just going to call them the, the accused, you know, the, or the, the attempted mass shooter. I think that's what I'll call this person.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the accused attempted mass shooter.

[Anya Cain]

Because obviously this person's not been convicted of a crime yet. And you know, somewhat confusingly, it's been reported that this person is, is transgender. But then a lot of media does not seem to be reflecting that and it's really under. Unclear where that stands. So I'll just be using gender neutral pro pronouns. That just feels the safest thing to do. I just, I don't know. But yeah, when, when we're talking about things like mass shootings, there's, there's research being done on this, but sometimes it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Starts to look like maybe these are.

[Anya Cain]

Social contagions in the sense that shooters are influencing and inspiring one another. So by basically having the media not glorify them, maybe not even name them, we may actually be kind of making it clear that like, no, if you do something horrible, we're not. You're not going to get all over the news and get like, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some kind of little profile and people are going to pay attention to you.

[Anya Cain]

Finally, you're just going to continue to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Be a loser, but you're going to.

[Anya Cain]

Just be a dead or imprisoned one. So this person was alleged with hit with the charges of conspiracy to commit murder, intimidation and conspiracy to commit intimidation. Again, this happened in Mooresville, Indiana, which.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'Ve been to a lot.

[Anya Cain]

We have actually trespassed on someone's property there once and got yelled at. But that was. We were in the wrong there. So. But that wasn't, that had nothing to do with this.

Why on earth are you telling the people that?

Well, sometimes we need to admit our faults too. But this is a. But it's really, you know, it's like a kind of just a Indiana town.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's actually where John Dillinger, the famed.

[Anya Cain]

Bank robber is from. Speaking of glorifying criminals. But this is so it was pretty shocking when this came up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't cover it at the time.

[Anya Cain]

But the mass shooting was averted. And I think this has some really, the PCA and things like that really have some interesting information on how police caught this. And I'll be curious about your take about sort of the legality. The per. The affiant is Detective Matthew D. McDaniel and this is from the PCI. I'll just read this aloud. On Tuesday, February 11th, 2025, at approximately.

[Kevin Greenlee]

1900 hours, I was contacted by Morgan.

[Anya Cain]

County Sheriff's Department Detective Sergeant Joshua Sparrow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

About a potential threat tip. I was told that the FBI Sandy Hook tip line had contacted Sergeant Sparrow.

[Anya Cain]

About a potential threat to the Mooresville High School. This tip included the following.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tipster stated that their friend is planning a shooting in Indiana on the 14th of February.

[Anya Cain]

Tipster stated that has access to AR14 and has just ordered a bulletproof vest.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tipster stated that this offender admires a Florida mass shooter.

[Anya Cain]

Tipster stated that the offender stated he.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Will kill his best friend first.

[Anya Cain]

And this person just coming out of the PCA for a minute, this person on Discord actually has a. I'm sorry, yeah, as a name that seems to reference a pretty well known Florida school shooter. And yeah, so the intimidation around this seems to kind of go from maybe this person being on Discord and threatening other people they were talking to on social media. And in addition, on that same day, the alleged attempted school shooter asked to speak with their school counselor at Mooresville High School. And they said this, that they were, quote, sexually attracted to a Florida school shooter. They spoke about how they wanted to have multiple children with the Florida school shooter and that they already named the children, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we're really seeing like this glorification of other recent.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, we see that, we saw that a lot with Columbine, the shooters in that, but we're seeing it more and more people, these young people are relating to the shooters. Troubled people are kind of. It's like what you see in the Internet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The Internet can be great because you.

[Anya Cain]

Can maybe find a community if you enjoy knitting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can go find a knitting community with this.

[Anya Cain]

It's like, it's, it's freakish, it's awful. And, and like people, I think are just like falling asleep at the wheel with what's happening to their children. Frankly, the fact that like some kid.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Could go off the deep end to.

[Anya Cain]

This extent and not ruffle any feathers is shocking to me.

Yeah, to me too.

And why do you think these kids are glorifying these shooters?

That's a mystery to me. I don't understand that. Maybe because the kids see these shooters getting criticized by others sometimes. There's a certain type of contrarian spirit in some kids who want to glorify what others criticize.

I think that's true. I think they're also seeing. They can get a lot of attention. And I think there's kind of like this. If you're not having. Listen, I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only one here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I did not have a good time.

[Anya Cain]

In high School, you know, I was pretty awkward and just socially not adept. I know you were one of the, the cool, popular guys, but. No, I was, I was. Yeah.

Not at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we were both like kind of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Socially inept nerds, I would say.

[Anya Cain]

Is that fair to say for you?

Yeah. Pretty harsh, but.

Yeah, well, but it's like, but it's okay to be a socially inept nerd because like as long as you're not hurting other people, like, you know, you usually. People grow out of it. They go to college, they go get a job, they go move on and high school is in your life. But, but kids don't really have that kind of sense of proportions and, and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think sometimes they see it as.

[Anya Cain]

Like, I'm gonna make everyone sorry and everyone's gonna know my name and I'm gonna do something that really cements my legacy. And it's just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They just spiral into this nonsense and.

[Anya Cain]

It'S, it's imperative, you know, checking on your kids mental health, making sure they're not like depressed. I mean not every kid who's depressed is going to do something like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But some will, right.

[Anya Cain]

And some, you know, they're going to enact their rage or whatever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they.

[Anya Cain]

This, this affiant talked about how this attempted school shooter had a mass shooter who killed a bunch of African Americans in a church who was pretty, that was a pretty well known one. They had a collage on the wall of that person. They wrote notes about a Michigan school shooter that they related to. So this person was really like had a fandom around some of these school and mass shooters and they seemingly kind of got like sucked into this discord community where they were telling others about their plans and what they were doing. And I just hope that if we ever get into a situation where, you know, people are alerting others that they're doing. Gonna do something horrible like this in advance, that if people sit on that information and do anything that there are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Legal consequences for them as well.

[Anya Cain]

Because that's.

Yeah, that's good.

We need to have that. So this got a lot of ink at the time, a lot of headlines talking about the situation in Mooresville, understandably. And it's kind of dropped off ever since the. To give you a sense of the legal players, Dakota Van Leeuwen is the judge on this in Morgan County.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Cassie Melody is the chief deputy prosecuting.

[Anya Cain]

Attorney and the attempted, alleged.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Attempted school shooters.

[Anya Cain]

Lawyer is Joseph de Gaunt. In February it came up that, you know, basically that there was some question about the defendant's competency to stand trial. And the defense actually objected to this person getting psychological examination on the grounds that there was no hearing. The defendant did not make the request.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And reports from court appointed psychologists are not confidential.

[Anya Cain]

So there's a fifth amendment concern there. What are your thoughts on this?

Well, obviously defense attorneys are going to defense attorney and they're going to raise whatever issues they can. But I think in a matter like this where some of the charges to some degree or another actually rely upon the competency of the defendant, I think such a hearing needs to be held.

Yeah, well, it was, you'll be glad to know that it was. And that took place on the, the competency evaluation and mental health evaluation were filed April 11, 2025. And in addition to that, there was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some more back and forth about bond.

[Anya Cain]

And there, at first there was no bond set, but then the defense pointed out that, you know, there hasn't been a murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're talking about conspiracy to commit murder.

[Anya Cain]

So there should be a hearing. Judge Van Leeuwen ordered that, you know, the bonds be set at $1 million in terms of property or surety and half a million in terms of cash.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And.

[Anya Cain]

If, if she, if this, if this person manages to make bond, which it doesn't seem, they have no contact order with some of the people involved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Home detention with GPS monitoring, pretrial release.

[Anya Cain]

Officer meetings twice a week, treatment plan for mental health providers and therapists taking prescriptions. No firearms or ammunition. But it seems unlikely that this person will get out. You know, they are young, they are 18. But this is. Yeah, I mean, I'll be curious to see where this goes because it's, it's not like they're prosecuting something that actually happened. They're prosecuting something that could have happened. And I'm sure the defense might be like, well, it was just all an elaborate fantasy. Right, Right. With the prevalence of mass shootings and stuff like that though, it's, it's good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To know that there's seemingly a system.

[Anya Cain]

For kind of some catching some of these things before they happen. I mean, in that way that's, that's very good. But I think we need to get even more proactive and robust with that. I don't know, because it's like these things shouldn't be happening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People shouldn't be scared to send their.

[Anya Cain]

Children to school for this reason because somebody with, you know, whatever is going on with this person, you know, decides to just, you know, this is what they want to do. That's, that's ridiculous. And people need to talk to their kids. Like, if your kid's spiraling, if your kid has a. A mass shooter on their wall, you know, collage style, if they're keeping shrines, that's a bad sign.

Yeah, that's not being edgy. That's a. That's the side. There's a serious issue going on.

It's edgy to, like, some kind of bands that are a bit, you know, risque or whatever. You know, in my day, that was like the emo stuff. Right. But, like, I. I don't, like, I don't remember like that. That shouldn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You shouldn't be glorifying murderers.

[Anya Cain]

And if your child is, they.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They need some serious help.

[Anya Cain]

And I would say that that's a risk because I. I think a lot of this comes from glorifying people who get, you know, all this media attention. And. Yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But anyways, how was that case?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, we're going to move on to discuss the final case of the week. And the case is a bit loose of a term, I guess. The sources that informed my discussion of this are the National Archives, CBS News, and the New York Post. So, as I'm sure most of you are aware, not too long ago, the National Archives released a whole bunch of heretofore unreleased documents in the JFK assassination case. It's our intent to cover that at some point. I'm being very me about it, and I want to make sure I actually look at every page first before I do that.

That's why we love you, Kevin. You're very thorough.

But meanwhile, the National Archives has also released about 10,000 pages, heretofore unreleased pertaining to the Robert F. Kennedy assassination. I've probably looked at maybe three or four hundred of those pages. And in addition to that, I've read some newspaper and press coverage of it. So I'm just going to riff on some things about it. First of all, I think it is interesting that the release of the Robert Kennedy files has gotten a lot less attention. Just obviously, a president probably gets a lot more attention when he is murdered than when a senator is killed. But in terms of the interest of the crime, this is something that is counterintuitive. And I want to be very specific and clear. I believe Robert F. Kennedy was assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan acting alone. But with that said, I think there are more interesting wrinkles in this case than there are in the JFK case. And as I say, that's counterintuitive because in the JFK case, you have the President being shot by an unseen gunman up in a building somewhere. And in the Bobby Kennedy case, you have Senator Kennedy being killed in a tiny room full of people, and you have the killer being apprehended immediately with the gun in his hand. And so you would think, well, that's the more open and shock case. But there's actually, as I said, there's just a few little things in there. Ultimately, it's not enough to dissuade me from thinking that Sirhan Sirhan ocked it alone, but to me, it's more interesting, maybe. Do you think we should cover that case at some point?

Yeah, 100%, why not?

So then let's get to these documents that were released. This reference is probably going to be before your time, but, Anya, when I was a little child, back in bygone days of yore, I had access to, like, three or four TV channels, and that was it. And then when you started hearing about, oh, now you can get, like, hundreds of TV channels, you were, like, so excited because all this great new content and. And they're all, like shopping channels. And so that's why Bruce Springsteen, as I'm sure you will recall, Anya, back before you were born, he released a song called 57 Channels and Nothing on.

Ah.

And the reason I'm going into this bizarre riff is because that's what some of these files releases are like. We're getting thousands of pages of documents, but a lot of them aren't really super relevant or tell us anything new or, dare I say, interesting. As I say, I looked through a couple hundred pages of the RFK files, and most of what I saw were just, like, letters regular people wrote to the President saying, basically, isn't this a bad thing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are you kidding me?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why would they even include that?

[Anya Cain]

Well, if someone sends a letter to a government agency, typically it's a record. You save it. Other things that came out was, there was a group of people on vacation in Israel, like, a month before the assassination, and someone there told them, you know, oh, I just heard Robert Kennedy got shot in Milwaukee. Gosh, this is a tip. Let's report it. Maybe they had foreknowledge, but, you know, and the FBI reports that says, no, it wasn't foreknowledge, had nothing to do with it. It was just a random incident, things like that. So there's a lot of leads that go nowhere and a lot of stuff that isn't super important. So it's like 10,000 pages and nothing on. Does that make sense?

10,000 pages and nothing on. I love it.

And that's especially interesting in the case of Robert F. Kennedy because most of the investigation of his assassination was actually not done by federal agencies. It was done by the State of.

California, the Los Angeles Police Department, or.

Yes, the Los Angeles Police Department. And those files have by and large already been released by the State of California. And that's where maybe some of the more interesting stuff is.

And those are. And you just said that those are already released.

Yes, those are already available from the State of California, except for reasonable redactions. And that's something else I wanted to talk about because these releases that have come out recently there doesn't seem to be thought put into what is included and what is not included with the JFK documents. Recently, for instance, there were some instances where the Social Security numbers of some people still alive were included. And that's sloppy and obviously opens up people to the possibility of having their identity stolen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's also.

[Anya Cain]

Why just take a bit of time to redact it and then put it out there.

I think there is something even worse in these Robert Kennedy files, which is that the federal release includes autopsy photos.

Oh man.

Just really unsettling photographs of Senator Kennedy's dead body. And what purpose does that serve? I even went to look in the State of California. They specifically said when they released their records it goes against California law to include autopsy photos. That we're not including those. Which is. Which is reasonable and it just seems kind of grotesque.

Well, you know, it allows a lot of un.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Informed people who've already made up their minds to comment on it endlessly and.

[Anya Cain]

Use it in their content. So I guess that's what the benefit is.

The interesting thing is there is a lot of questions about the autopsy of John Kennedy. We don't need to go into detail now, but I'll say that autopsy was really bungled and done very badly. So it would make sense that the photographs of his body be preserved and be available to view by qualified researchers like doctors, for instance. You know, a person like you and me is like, if I handle a gun, I don't have experience, I'm going to shoot somebody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

People.

If I don't have a medical degree, I don't really know what to look for in autopsy photos. I'm not going to be able to look at the autopsy photos of John F. Kennedy and really understand them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I frankly don't care what people say.

[Anya Cain]

In an autopsy unless they have a medical degree or some other Kind of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Specialty that would really allow them to comment in an informed and intelligent way.

[Anya Cain]

Otherwise, it's just vibes.

Yes, as I say, the autopsy of President Kennedy was awful. So it makes sense. Let's occasionally allow qualified researchers and doctors to look at these photos and draw their conclusions about some of the crucial issues of the case. Because in that case, if the placement of a wound in different parts of his bodies could impact our determination of who fired the shots. So that makes sense to a certain degree. But in the case of Senator Kennedy, the autopsy that was done on him, I believe by Thomas Noguchi, that was a great autopsy. Everything was done by the book. Whatever you need to know about his death and where the wounds were and everything of that nature, it's all there in that autopsy. So that just underscores to me the uselessness of releasing these photos of this man's body. And even one of his daughters made a public statement. Why are you doing this? I don't need to have my memory of my father now be this. These autopsy photos. So it just seemed really tasteless and didn't really contribute to our understanding of the case at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why are they doing things in this way?

[Anya Cain]

Do we have a sense? I mean, why not have it be more organized and thoughtful? I mean, I would like why our.

President said, let's release these documents as quickly as possible. So that. That is now what is happening. I wish some more care had been placed. I don't think the public really needs to see the photos of his. Senator Kennedy's dead body. Maybe there's some value in reading some of these other files. I'm going to continue to go through them and if there is, I will report back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you.

[Anya Cain]

But, you know, people did want to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hear from you on the JFK ones.

[Anya Cain]

Because they were like, whoa, Kevin. Must be. Must be having a field day right now.

Must be having a field day.

He's feasting over there. And I think behind the scenes, you had a bit of a different reaction.

To the JFK files again, 57 channels and nothing on. I want to go through them all, though, before I do any big thing. So at some point we will go through that, and if there's interest, maybe at some point we'll cover the Robert F. Kennedy assassination again. Sirhan Sirhan acted alone, but there was a bit more stuff there to chew on, in my opinion, than there is in the President Kennedy assassination.

You're more like a little bit more on the, like, understanding the. Maybe the idea of a conspiracy in RFK Jr. In RFK vs. JFK? Is that what you're saying?

Basically, it's something that when you look at the facts, if I were just to tell you a couple of things now that are true, it would make you say, hmm. But then if we go into it into a lot more detail, it makes you say, okay, I think I understand. And there are instances. One of the foremost proponents of the thesis that Oswald acted alone is former Los Angeles District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi. He spent some time researching the RF Kennedy killing because he wondered. So there are questions there. I think they have been answered in such a way to make me convinced that he acted alone. But I think there was more meat on those bones than there are in some other cases.

Well, yeah, you give more of a hat tip to it. So I think I really appreciate how thorough you are with these because, yeah, this guy is not going to just talk about JFK and RFK and those assassinations without looking through all of this. So I appreciate your time.

I want to read every letter people wrote to President Johnson about it.

Oh, but I think that's great. I think that's thorough. You know, I mean, I, I mean, I, Geez, I, I, I respect the hell out of that. So you're saying we might get some JFK and RFK discussions down the road, but you. Down the road, you want to do it right?

I want to do it right, yes.

Well, I think that's wonderful. So I commend you, Mr. Greenlight.

Well. Well, thank you, Ms. Kane. Now it's time for you to tug at your little engineer's cap, hop back on your train, shovel in some cold. What kind of noise does a train make just before it goes down that track?

I feel like that's just gonna get really annoying for people. So I'm sorry, it may not be.

In any other episode.

We may never speak of this again.

But before the cane train disappears, like 500 emails.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I stopped listening after that. That was a low point.

[Anya Cain]

Before the cane train disappears down those lonely tracks. Wow. Do you have any parting words?

Yes, we have a book called Shadow of the Bridge coming out in August. Please buy it. Purchase it. You can Purchase it on bookshop.com Is it org? I'm sorry? Bookshop.org Buy it on Amazon. Buy it, I think, through Simon Schuster's website. So there's some places to buy it. One thing everyone asks us is, is there an audiobook? And the answer is yes, but we don't have any information about where, when, how, anything like that that will come out, but it will it will happen, but we don't have any information. When we do, we will tell you. And then. And then you can do that. And if you prefer that to a hard cover, but if otherwise, you're free to do both. Do both.

You're free to buy a hardcover, a Kindle, and the audio.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because, like, you can't show your audiobook to friends.

[Anya Cain]

You can, but you can, like, you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Know, take a tasteful inst.

[Anya Cain]

Instagram picture of your hard copy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right?

[Anya Cain]

You take an Instagram video of yourself listening to the audiobook and nodding, nodding.

Along, shaking your head.

The narrator of the audiobook almost certainly will not be us. And I think one thing to consider there is, I think that when you listen to the story, I don't want you to be thinking, oh, it's Kevin and Anya. I want you to be able to concentrate on the people involved. Any other thoughts as you prepare to ride the rails of this great nation? Looking for content.

What? What? It's gotten more elaborate. I would say that we have some.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We still have some shirts. Could purchase them.

[Anya Cain]

The shirts are very good cotton shirts of the murder sheet people. They designate you as a murder sheet person.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very important.

[Anya Cain]

Let people know you have great.

In these troubled times.

In these troubled times, you must let everyone know you have wonderful taste in true crime and podcasts. And then they might start a conversation. Maybe you meet some new friends.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hey, what's that mean?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, well, let me tell you. And then you can tell them all about us. It's a great way to meet people.

Also, I bet if you go to, like, a fancy restaurant, you don't have reservations and you just say, point to the shirt that you're wearing. Maybe the maitre d says, oh, I'll get you a seat. Top of the house. What's the good stuff?

Top of the house? Yeah, they're going to lead you up to the roof and lock you up there.

A penthouse table.

Kevin, what do you.

I don't know a lot about fancy restaurants. Maybe it's time to hit the button.

I want to unpack this first. So if you. If you go and wear a shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To a restaurant, you will be separated.

[Anya Cain]

From your party, led up to the roof, and forced to eat alone on the roof, because that's. No, that's what you're guaranteeing.

You go to the restaurant with your party. There's no seats available in the house because it's a popular restaurant and they say, oh, look, you're wearing the murder sheet shirt. Maybe they make room for you in the front of the restaurant. So not only do you get a desired seat, but patrons walking by, look, look through the window and they see, oh, this person attracts, this restaurant attracts Murder Sheet fans.

Are people, like, looking in the window at our listeners, eating just like, watching them? The whole thing sounds very ominous.

Well, as I said, I think it's time for a button to be pushed.

All right, thanks, everybody, so much for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Anya Cain]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're a brand that just does this.

[Anya Cain]

Sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think I have, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And deservedly so.

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

These are so soft.

[Anya Cain]

They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great, they feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket, I mean, that's a little bit of a. You, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this was a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[Anya Cain]

You got something a bit different.

I do wash my.

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

But you don't really.

I launder them.

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Of the norm for you, but I.

[Anya Cain]

Think you really like it and it looks good.

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.

There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com msheet that's Q U I N C E.com M S H.

[J]

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