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- [00:00]
A
Are you really buying a car online on AutoTrader right now?
- [00:03]
B
Really?
- [00:04]
A
At a playground?
- [00:05]
B
Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers.
- [00:08]
A
Wow, your search can really get that specific.
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B
Really?
- [00:11]
A
And you just put in your info and boom, car's in your budget.
- [00:14]
B
Mom needs a second.
- [00:15]
A
Honey, you can really have it delivered.
- [00:17]
B
Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car.
- [00:23]
C
Mommy, look.
- [00:24]
A
I think your kid is walking up the slide.
- [00:25]
C
Kyle. Again? Really?
- [00:27]
B
Auto trader? Buy your car online. Really? When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery, so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:00]
D
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:31]
C
I'm Anya, and today we're going to be doing some cheat sheet cases. Two cases out of Indiana that I picked and then several others that Kevin picked. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, as well as sexual abuse.
- [01:45]
E
And we're at Crimecond. We're having a great time. Uh, we're staying at the Flamingo. I'm really loving those In N Out burgers.
- [01:54]
C
Yeah, you. We. You pledged to eat a lot of them. We're not recording this at Crimecon. Just so we don't confuse anyone. We're recording this in advance, but we will be in Crimecon at the Flamingo, a hotel, I think, founded by a gangster. So, you know, keeping the crime theme going. We're really excited to meet everyone at Crimecon, and hopefully everyone's having a great time. But I. I will say we. We tried to record this episode earlier, and there was a technical issue, and we lost a whole extended riff that Kevin did about dog casinos. Casinos for dogs. So I just wanted to give you a chance to go on that ramble again.
- [02:34]
E
What?
- [02:35]
C
Yeah, it was a lot like, that whole episode was just becoming about what would the casino for dogs, like, be? Like, what? And all. You know. You know what's ironic is our dogs were the ones who caused the technical issue. It caused us to lose that episode. And they. And they were promptly removed from the room after being remonstrated with.
- [02:58]
E
Now, my recollection is you weren't fond of me talking about dog casinos, so
- [03:03]
C
maybe you were the one that pulled the plug. Maybe I secretly bade them to sabotage it. No, I felt like you went on too long, but I felt bad that you lost all that. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to bring back your little dog. New little riff.
- [03:14]
E
Didn't you say in the middle of that that, like, the pit bosses would be pit bulls?
- [03:19]
C
There you go.
- [03:20]
E
That was one of your lines.
- [03:21]
C
No, I. I didn't say that.
- [03:23]
E
And you said they would be betting with, like, dog biscuits for, like, the smaller bats and the bigger bats would be steak bones.
- [03:30]
C
That's right. And I'm literally watching my dog try to get into. Into more treats, like, literally behind me. I mean, I'm just. There's gonna be some discussions about these dogs at the end of this, but they. They certainly don't get a treat by going to the casino. They would not be allowed in the casino. Nick would be on a list. I mean, he just wouldn't even be permitted in. I mean, he's just a. He's a miscreant.
- [03:54]
E
You have a bit of a grudge against the dogs today. Which we will.
- [03:58]
C
The dogs turned out to be my enemies. I thought I was adopting two beloved family members that I could cherish, but instead, there are enemies in my midst, and their names are Nick and Nora, and they're conspiring to humiliate me and do all sorts of things.
- [04:13]
E
Did you want to say any words about the premium stuff we're offering?
- [04:17]
C
Um, I think I was going to do another five minutes about my paranoid ramblings about my own dogs.
- [04:22]
E
That's why I interrupted you. I saw where that was going.
- [04:25]
C
So my. Yeah, we're doing. We've. We're unrolling more premium features, so if that's something you'd enjoy. We are offering now Apple podcasts subscriptions for $5 a month. And. And with that, you will currently get early episodes. Lots of early episodes. So you'll be hearing stuff before anyone else, and we'll be.
- [04:46]
E
Unless you belong to the Patreon. Cause we're offering the same thing on Patreon, right?
- [04:50]
C
Yes. Why don't I'LL explain that. So the Patreon. Well, let's go into the features first. So there's early and then there's ad free. So you just have an ad free listening experience. It's pretty much what you get on Patreon. And we'll also be putting our Patreon lives. We do two of those a month where we kind of hang out with listeners on Patreon. We'll put the audio from that on Apple too, so you can listen.
- [05:13]
E
And I just wanna make sure the Patreon people don't think, yeah, I can get to that.
- [05:17]
C
You're panicking over there. You're having a Patreon panic over there.
- [05:21]
E
Well, I care about them. I don't want them to think I
- [05:23]
C
care about them too. I'm not gonna. I did a whole post in Patreon saying, hey, don't get Apple because you're getting the same stuff now. For the people at Patreon who don't really like Patreon but might want to jump ship to Apple, you can do that. It's gonna be. You're not gonna join the lives personally necessarily. Cause I can't figure out how to do that. But you can still hear them. So that's an option too. But I will, I will just say, you know, Patreon and Apple are going to be very similar. You don't have to get both. We don't want people to waste their money. Everything's expensive enough as it is right now. So we want to keep, you know, a pretty flat rate and just kind of give you some stuff. And in addition to that, we're going to be expanding our, I guess, premium exclusive content over time, getting you some more behind the scenes stuff, getting more into that, you know, just getting more, you know, kind of having a value add. So if you have any suggestions on what to do with that or what you might enjoy behind the paywall. Murdersheetmail.com and you know, if you have other creators that you like and they're doing stuff with that and you think we should do it, you know, send us some inspourdersheetmail.com and we just want to expand the show. Want to keep pretty much most of our case coverage in front of the paywall so everyone can enjoy it, but also want to be giving extra stuff to the people who really support our show so much and we really appreciate them. So want to have a bit of a balance there. And yeah, I think it'll be, it'll be fun and we have a lot of fun with the premium stuff on Patreon. So we think it'll be really fun on Apple too. So definitely check that out. Subscribe if you are interested and let us know what you want us to do if you have any thoughts.
- [07:07]
E
Because we'll do whatever anybody asks.
- [07:10]
C
That's not true. That's not true at all. We're not going to do anything anyone asks.
- [07:14]
E
So what? What's an example of something we wouldn't do?
- [07:17]
C
I can think of many things. I mean, we're not going to do anything unethical.
- [07:24]
E
What if someone asks really nicely?
- [07:27]
C
I think a great Patreon subscription service would be if you killed people's spouses for them. It's like, we're not gonna do that. You know, I don't go for that. No can do. That's what hall and Oates said.
- [07:40]
E
Yeah, you're a Hall and Oats fanatic.
- [07:42]
C
No, I'm not. But I do know that lyric.
- [07:44]
E
You wake up every morning humming a Holland Oats tune.
- [07:48]
C
That's not true. But anyways, so we. Shall we move you just whatever you're, like, all spent from your stupid Dog Casino riff that just went on for five hours. I. I was trying to make sure everyone else had to, too.
- [08:01]
E
It was delightful. People would have loved it. But it's gone. It's lost.
- [08:06]
C
Destroyed by our dogs. By our fricking dogs who don't know how to behave and are.
- [08:13]
E
I can't recreate it. It wasn't written down. It was all magic off the top of my head.
- [08:18]
C
He's really over exaggerating, folks. You're not missing that much.
- [08:22]
E
I think people would have been sending in ideas for the Dog Casino names for the Dog Casino.
- [08:26]
C
Well, maybe they will. Maybe they will again. Maybe the Dog Casino will ris from the proverbial ashes of our dog's destruction. So shall we move on?
- [08:35]
E
Yes.
- [08:37]
C
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [08:39]
E
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [08:42]
C
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [08:44]
E
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [08:53]
C
And this is. And this is the cheat. Just let me finish it. And this is the Cheat sheet. Roblox and racism.
- [09:48]
E
You missed your cue.
- [09:49]
C
I did.
- [09:50]
E
You just like looking at stuff on your phone.
- [09:51]
C
No, I was thrown off by your dog weirdness and just.
- [09:55]
E
That makes no sense. She was looking. She. She was looking at stuff on her phone.
- [09:59]
C
You were texting me about the dogs, about their. Their crime con accomm. So they're throwing everything, everything off.
- [10:08]
E
Why don't you tell us about the cases you selected?
- [10:11]
C
I took. I selected two Hoosier cases, two Indiana cases. And I was delighted recently when you told me you were reading an old book or no old short story, and a strange stereotype of Hoosiers came up. Do you want to talk about that?
- [10:28]
E
Oh, it said the stereotype for.
- [10:30]
C
What were you reading first?
- [10:32]
E
Oh, Henry. And it said that there was a stereotype that Hoosiers just set around writing novels because at that time there was a number of prominent Indiana authors or novelists such as Booth Tarkington, Meredith Nicholson, Indiana's literary renaissance.
- [10:47]
C
So this, unfortunately, you know, whenever the Indiana comes up on the cheat sheet, it's not for good reasons like writing novels. It's for, you know, crimes. But. But nonetheless. So my sources for this first Indiana case are a press release from the Indiana State Police as well as a couple of legal motions. And there are some gaps in this one I will note, and some things that I'm still wondering about. But I think we're going to kind of get into and maybe get a sense of why some of this information may not be immediately forthcoming and why we may kind of need to wait for further developments, whether that's a trial or a plea agreement in order to really figure out some of what happened here. So let me read from you a statement from the Indiana State police. Quote. In October 2025, detectives from the Indiana State Police were asked to investigate an allegation of a sex crime that occurred in Indianapolis. After a lengthy investigation, a grand jury indicted the man for sexual battery. The incident occurred in October of 2025 while the suspect was visiting a person known to him in Indianapolis. Detectives turn their case over to the Marion County Prosecutor's Office who subsequently presented the case to a grand jury. The suspect is identified as 46 year old Timothy C. Healy of Virginia. At the time of the allegation, Healy was employed as an agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigations. He was incarcerated May 7, 2026 in the Marion County Jail. Healey is not assigned to the Indianapolis FBI office. For information about his employment, inquiries should be made to the FBI's National Press Office in Washington D.C. end quote. So this is obviously a very serious and disturbing story. Obviously, in any instances of sexual battery, that is such a horrifying and serious crime. But then to have the person who is accused be a representative, be an agent, a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you know, widely considered, you know, one of the most well known and formidable law enforcement agencies in the United States is. Is especially scary, you know, if someone's misusing, you know, taking advantage of someone else. So obviously these are all allegations. For now, there's not been a trial. But, you know, one thing that struck me is like, you're not really, definitely not learning, like, a lot about what happened here. I will look through some of the legal filings, though, and kind of get into other things we could piece together. So this first document is from April 30, 2026, and it's the state's motion to file information under seal. So the state of Indiana, represented by Marion County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Anne Frangos, asked that the information and affidavit from this case be sealed. They noted that the defendant was charged with sexual battery and that they were essentially concerned that if there's no seal that the defendant, unidentified co conspirators or others sympathetic to the defendant may hide or dispose of evidence or even flee or help this guy flee prosecution prior to the execution of an arrest warrant, if such a warrant is granted. So they asked that the charges be sealed until the defendant was taken into custody. What do you think about that development, Kevin, as far as, like, can you seal it until we get this guy?
- [14:18]
E
Yeah, in some cases, certainly. Yeah. It's not super unusual.
- [14:21]
C
No. And then eventually they also filed the motion to unseal information, and they talked about how they got this order filed, and it was sealed April 30, and the defendant has now been arrested on the arrest warrant. And so we don't need to seal it anymore. So it was. That was lifted from there. We have the order finding probable cause. And this was granted from. From the court. And it talked about how the state got an indictment by a Marion county grand jury. Kevin, I guess one question people might have is like a grand jury. What. What is that?
- [15:05]
E
A grand jury is ordinary people that the prosecutor in some cases will present a. And basically say, what do you think? Do you think there should be an indictment or charges in this particular case?
- [15:19]
C
And what's the kind of truism in true crime about grand juries as far as getting. Getting a.
- [15:27]
E
Typically, the cliche is the grand jury will do whatever the prosecutor wants them to do.
- [15:32]
C
So you can indict a ham sandwich?
- [15:34]
E
Yeah.
- [15:34]
C
Yeah.
- [15:35]
A
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?
- [15:38]
B
Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget.
- [15:42]
A
You can really have it delivered or pick it up. Kid is walking up the slide.
- [15:47]
C
Really.
- [15:47]
B
Auto trader. Buy your car online. Really, if the world were like a Sleep Number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort. Because as your life changes and your body changes, Sleep number mattresses adapt and shift to give you personalized comfort night after night. And now it's the final days of our everything's on Sale event. Save up to $1,200 on mattresses. Our Memorial Day event ends Monday. To experience a whole new world of comfort, visit a Sleep number store or go to sleepnumber.com sleep number to a good life sleep.
- [16:20]
C
So I mean, but it can be a very useful tool as far as, you know, getting that indictment. And this is what they found. So and this is the for the crime of sexual battery, the grand jury of the county of Marion under upon their oath or affirmation, do present that on this date of in Marion County, Indiana, honor about October 16, 2025, Timothy Healy, with the intent to arouse or satisfy his own sexual desires or the sexual desires of person with the initials G.E. did compel G.E. to submit to touching by force or imminent threat of force and or touch genitals, pubic area, buttocks or female breast when GE was unaware that the touching was occurring. All of which is contrary to the statute and against the peace and dignity of the state of Indiana. So that is how they were able to get the indictment through a grand jury and through that grand jury by getting that indictment, it said, quote, the court now finds the indictment is a finding of probable cause for the charges filed by the state of Indiana and issues a warrant for the arrest of the above named defendant. So it's you get the grand jury, you get them to indict the person and then that's probable cause. Is that pretty much how it works?
- [17:48]
E
That's basically how it works.
- [17:51]
C
So now this healing is represented by attorney Ronald Gemma Hope I'm saying his name right. And in filing defendant's motion for expedited initial Hearing, he notes, Mr. Gemma notes that, quote, the defendant has surrendered himself on outstanding warrant in this matter on today's date by appearing to the authorities at the Marion County Sheriff's Department and then notes that this ahili resides in Stafford, Virginia and flew himself to Indiana at his own expense to surrender to the warrant and that the defendant has a $5,000 cash bond in the matter which had been paid prior to the filing. The defendant requests the court schedule this matter for initial hearing at the court's earliest convenience to address the current sealed status of the matter, conditions of bond and any other issues. This matter currently under consideration so that is some of what's happening. You're really not getting a lot of details from this. You're not getting like kind of your probable cause affidavit put together by an investigator. It's, it's kind of a bit scant on that now to a certain extent, you know, no one should name a, a victim in a situation like this or, or somebody who's an accuser when it comes to sexual assault. I mean, that's pretty standard for media, but we're just not really getting a lot of information about what happened. I was able to kind of dig around and go on Wayback Machine and find a little bit of information about Healy and his career. So this is what a quote is from. It's called the Conflict Transformation Lab. So this is what it said and this has been since taken down. That's why I had to go on way back, quote. With over 23 years of combined federal service, Timothy C. Healy manages FBI Regional Field Office crisis negotiation programs, deploys for high risk operations and conducts training and research both overseas and domestically. Tim has a Doctorate of International Affairs Conflict Resolution from Johns Hopkins University and a Master of International Public Policy from the same and has a Master's in Forensic Psychology from Argosy University. Tim merges academic, scholarly and practitioners experience to advance structured professional decision making during crisis incidents. Tim has published numerous articles on hostage and kidnap ransom negotiations in the National Tactical Officers association official publication Criminal justice and Behavior and the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. Tim is a High Value Detainee interrogation group augmentee, FBI adjunct faculty instructor and FBI National Academy session 291 graduate. He was a commissioned officer in the US army where he deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. Okay, so you're kind of getting a sense of his background. This isn't really like, this is somebody who's been in the FBI for a long time obviously and on a lot of like specialized teams. So this has gotten definitely a lot of interest in the Indianapolis media market because people are, you know, disturbed by these allegations and want to know what ends up happening with this case. And we'll certainly be following along and hoping to get more information as things go on.
- [21:07]
E
Absolutely. What's the next case?
- [21:09]
C
Another Indiana case. So this concerns a case that we've covered pretty extensively. That's the murder of Hailey Busby, 17 year old girl from Fishers, Indiana who was abducted and lured by a predator she seemingly met on the Internet and who ended up murdered in Ohio. We've covered that. If you look at our webpage and you know you can find a bunch of episodes on her case. This is something that is related but is a little bit tangential. My primary source for this one is the Indiana Lawyer, which is a great publication and also the, the court filing itself. So we'll talk about it. But essentially what's happening is Indiana's Attorney General Todd Rakita is suing the makers of different. Basically in Haley's case it she met a guy on this Roblox gaming platform and was communicating him with him on this messaging platform Discord. So Rakita is suing both of them over what he says is basically they're enabling online predators to get to kids and have failed to put up enough protections in order to stop this. So the lawsuit he filed was in the Hamilton County Superior Court. And of course Hamilton county is where Fishers is. That's where Haley disappeared from. And the company's Discord and Roblox are accused of violating the Indiana Deceptive Consumer Sales Act. And they just basically say, you know, it's, it's basically saying like they're just throwing young kids to these child abuse abusers and whatnot. So obviously I'm sure those companies are fighting back. They gave statements to the Indiana Lawyer sort of saying that they are safe and they are doing stuff to protect kids and whatnot. I'll read to you from some of the introduction to this case as far as the actual lawsuit. So this is from the lawsuit. So quote Spaces for children must be designed with children in mind. The Attorney General on behalf of the state of Indiana seeks to hold accountable corporations that corral children into their online communities and then open the gates wide to adult predators. These actions, coupled with the deceptive promises of safety to parents must be remedied. Assurances about safety and security of children must be honest and straightforward to allow parents to choose what to permit and how to guide their children to safely and responsibly grow. Indiana's parents have felt the devastation, devastating impact of the dark web of the dark side of these platforms. Earlier this year, authorities charged an Ohio man with crimes in connection with the death of 17 year old girl from Fishers, Indiana. She was reported missing in early January 2026. Later, investigators revealed that her contact with this 39 year old man began through playing video games including the on the number one gaming site for kids and teens defendant Roblox. The Attorney General is empowered to protect Hoosier consumers through enforcement of the Indiana Deceptive Consumer Sales Act. This enforcement action seeks to hold defendants Roblox Corporation and Discord Inc. Defendants accountable for their decisions to prioritize profits and growth over safety of children and to deceive Hoosiers through calculated campaign to lull parents into a sense of security when their children are using Defendant's products. Defendant Roblox operates interactive online gaming service. Roblox will be used for both the corporation and the platform. And Discord owns and operates a voice, video and text communication application that runs on desktop and mobile operating system Discord app. Both platforms have known problems with preventing the facilitation and distribution of child sexual abuse material and the sexual exploitation of Indiana's minor children through their interactive online products. The Attorney General brings a suit to seek restitution and or disgorgement of defendants illicit proceeds impose civil penalties, recover attorneys fees and costs, obtain injunctive relief and obtain actual damages and obtain other such remedies of orders and judgments as authorized by Indiana law. So what do you think about this?
- [25:41]
E
It's an interesting situation. It's always difficult to come up with ways to handle this sort of thing when it comes to social media because if you start requiring a lot more of social media, it might have to become more regulated overall. But then if you don't require enough from social media, there's tragedies. It's hard to know where to strike the balance. What do you think?
- [26:12]
C
I think like, if we lived in a town and there was like a big red button in the middle of the town square and anytime anyone went over and pressed it, a pedophile would material, materialize from midair and grab a child and run off. Then, you know, and there was a company basically being like, you know, come press the button. Then, you know, I don't know. I think people would probably burn that company down. And I think online companies get away with a lot more because we perceive as the Internet is not being real and we perceive some of this stuff as like, well, you know, teach your kids this. And like, I think you should teach your kids about this. Don't get me wrong. I mean, get your kids to make good choices and not connect, you know, with weird creeps online. But at the same time, they're kids, you know, and they might be getting something out of getting some attention from an adult that, you know, that unfortunately leads them down a path that's very dangerous. So it's like, I. I think I agree with you. I don't want to see, you know, like government control of everything online. But at the same time, I think there's probably room for some kind of happy medium. And I I've heard so many bad things about Roblox and Discord in particular that it just seems like they are just a playground for pedophiles. That's my perception. That's my perception just based on the number of cases we've seen on this. I think if that is. I mean, I think like, if you are awash in pedophiles and also specifically marketing to children to some extent, especially with Roblox, there's a problem there and acting like, well, we're doing everything we can. Well, are you? So I'll be curious to see where it goes. I mean, I don't know. I think, I think parents should be extremely careful with what, like, platforms. I mean, honestly, like, I think a lot of this stuff probably starts early with maybe limiting your child's ability to get on some of this stuff, delaying it until they're a bit older and maybe a bit more capable being savvy about this stuff. But at the same time, like, you know, that's not going to happen for every family. And maybe, you know, it might be some are already on this. And it's, it's just, I feel like we're in a society, like we often just blame the consumer, blame the consumer, blame the parents, blame the kid. And it's like, what about the companies that are like, becoming gathering, you know, grounds for child abusers who want to sexually exploit children? You know, like, if somebody has a bar in town and it's the NAMBLA hangout, I don't know. And like, people are going out and doing things to kids around that bar. I don't know, it seems like there is some responsibility there. And I would like to see, you know, tech people who are making huge profits off of the backs of children in particular. I like to see them feel some kind of, like, need to protect those children. Like, I don't know why they wouldn't.
- [29:24]
E
Well, some extreme behavior on social media is also at the heart of one of the cases I wanted to talk about. So if you're done with your case.
- [29:32]
C
Absolutely.
- [29:33]
E
This is a Tennessee case and I got it from WA n e dot com. So apparently there's a guy online who calls himself Chud the Builder.
- [29:46]
C
And what's his real name? We're not calling him that.
- [29:49]
E
Absolutely not Dalton eitherly.
- [29:52]
C
Okay.
- [29:52]
E
He goes around and live streams himself in public places making racist comments to people of color.
- [30:05]
C
Okay.
- [30:06]
E
That's, that's his thing. He's, I suppose, trying to incite people or try to get reactions from people.
- [30:18]
C
So he's Like a miserable piece of garbage, in other words.
- [30:20]
E
Yeah, that's fair to say it. A lot of people like this are attracted to social media where you just try to.
- [30:31]
C
It's all performative nonsense.
- [30:32]
E
Yeah. You do extreme things and you get attention. And even if it's negative attention. Oh, I'm getting attention.
- [30:41]
C
It feels your wound that your parents inflicted upon you by not paying enough attention to you at some kind of critical stage. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Or something like that.
- [30:51]
E
Someone Claire Martin, who works near where this guy does some of his antics, says this guy is well known in Clarksville, Tennessee for antagonizing people to see what he can get them to do. And she says he's not a contributing member of society.
- [31:10]
C
No, he's not. Get a friggin job.
- [31:12]
E
He was in court on some other matter and he got into some sort of a confrontation with someone and both he and the other person ended up getting shot. And now this man is being charged with attempted murder.
- [31:32]
C
So the Eaverly guy.
- [31:34]
E
Yes, eitherly is charged with attempted murder.
- [31:37]
C
Good, you can go away for a long time with that. Yeah, and then no one has to deal with your nonsense anymore. Is the other guy being charged?
- [31:45]
E
I haven't seen any indication of that. The other guy hasn't even been publicly identified.
- [31:52]
C
What are the circumstances of what happened? Was this yet another incident where he was trying to incite Rachel?
- [31:57]
E
That's not even clear. He was at court for some other matters and this, this was a confrontation that happened outside the courthouse. Again, he's known for saying racial things to.
- [32:13]
C
Racist things.
- [32:14]
E
Racist things to people of color. I'll quote a line from this article. Quote. In one video taken into market, he says to a passing black man, you chimping out a reference to chimpanzees. He then uses the N word a number of times.
- [32:33]
C
What a disgusting waste of space.
- [32:36]
E
He's been charged with some financial things too. He once became unruly at a steakhouse in Nashville, it says, and refused to pay a bill that was several hundred dollars. So this guy's a real piece of work and I wanted to just highlight it. I think it's.
- [32:57]
C
This is what social media rewards.
- [32:59]
E
Yes, it gives attention to people who do extreme behavior.
- [33:05]
C
Like in. In pre Internet times, this guy would probably write a bunch of racist letters to his local newspaper that would like not get published and he'd seethe in his house and you know, die in obscurity. But the Internet, all the other people like him give him power over the Internet by giving him views. And also, frankly, everyday people do. They may not agree with him, but they watch him because it's like, oh, let's see this guy get beat up or let's see what happens. And it's like the, the thing we have to do with people like this is ignore them. Is really ignore them. Someone going around trying to incite racial hatred is just not. It's like you're lower than, you know, you're lower than dirt. Like, just go away and stop bothering people who are trying to go about their day.
- [33:54]
E
Yeah. If you think this is funny or bizarre and you just click on it for your own amusement, ultimately you are giving him what he wants, which is attention.
- [34:04]
C
I'm just glad no one got killed here.
- [34:06]
E
Yes.
- [34:07]
C
Like, you know, I'm glad no one got killed because, you know, that could ruin an innocent person's life here. And he obviously has been like, angling for something like this happening for a while to get more attention. You know, I mean, I, I hope. I mean, I hope whatever it is that it's a. It's a slam dunk case and that people don't have to deal with this stuff anymore. It's like, there's just such a strain of like, just severe personality disorders amongst some of these online creators that are just completely going untreated. They're not like, they're not looking for help for this. They're not looking to help themselves or help themselves not hurt others. It's just like lean into it and it's like that. That is so. It's such a toxic cesspool. I mean, I don't even know. I just like, I just can't imagine, like, living your life like this.
- [34:56]
E
And I just wanted to. Briefly, very briefly, I got this from cnn. It was also widely reported elsewhere. Out of taxes. We are all well aware of the Austin yogurt shop murders. We have covered it extensively on this program. We also, I think we're all aware that four men were accused of that crime. One of them was actually sent to death row. Another was sentenced to life in prison. And those four men had nothing to do with that crime. These are Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott, Forrest Welborn, and Maurice Pierce. And so now the city of Austin will be paying $35 million to those men. And one of them has passed away. And his share will be going to his family. And I wanted to highlight that because I think you and I quite rightfully try to shine a light on what we call innocence fraud, which is rampant. It's rampant. There are a Lot of people out there who make claims, oh, I'm innocent, I didn't do this, and they're lying.
- [36:07]
C
And their podcasting allies are grifters.
- [36:10]
E
Yes. Yes.
- [36:12]
C
Yeah. I mean, like, it's.
- [36:14]
E
It.
- [36:14]
C
You know why? Because that is a better story for a lot of people and makes people feel like, oh, I'm a moral crusader versus, like, I'm listening to some kind of even handed coverage of anything. And that's what people want, you know,
- [36:27]
E
and other people just get duped. And sometimes people can just honestly disagree with us about particular cases. But I think even if you do honestly disagree with us about particular cases, you'd have to conclude this is a problem. It is widespread. There's an awful lot of claims that are just not true and end up victimizing the families of the victims and.
- [36:52]
C
Yeah, and also victimize everyone else's intelligence, frankly.
- [36:55]
E
And I think it's right to be cynical about that. It's right to be suspicious.
- [36:59]
C
I think you would be better off being suspicious of any claims of innocence versus being overly accepting. And you'd probably be right more of the time by being, like, more skeptical.
- [37:09]
E
But at the same time, despite our skepticism, it's important to acknowledge and remember, wrongful convictions do happen. And one of the things that upsets me most about innocence fraud is it makes the actual cases of wrongful conviction even more difficult to find and spotlight and to help the people who deserve it. These men had nothing to do with this crime. They did not deserve what happened to them. This $35 million is an awful lot of money, but I'm not even sure it makes up for what they went through. Imagine being innocent and being sentenced to either life in prison or death. That's horrible. They did not deserve that. So.
- [37:56]
C
And even getting a cool. I mean, I think they were let out and, like, the DNA kind of acquitted them to a certain extent. I. I forget whatever the legal maneuvering was, but they got out. But I think even for years before Robert Eugene Brashears, the serial killer, was identified as the true killer of those four girls, I imagine they kind of lived under a cloud of suspicion of, like, well, they got out, but maybe they really did do it. I'm sure people were kind of like, I don't know. And it is tragic how it affected all their lives. I know some of them were somewhat troubled to begin with, but they didn't do this. There's a difference between being, like, a troubled teen and being like, a really, like, heinous murderer who does this to four girls. And I Don't know, it just, it. I imagine it really negatively affected all of them and their families too. They're victims in this too, as far as I'm concerned.
- [38:44]
E
So, yeah, I think we should be suspicious of claims of. Suspicious is the wrong word.
- [38:49]
C
Skeptical.
- [38:50]
E
We should be skeptical of claims of wrongful conviction, and we should look at them. But we can't let our skepticism blind us to the fact that there are legitimate claims of wrongful convictions out there, and the people who are affected by those legitimate claims deserve to be made whole.
- [39:09]
C
I agree. I think we just need to be discerning. And frankly, by being discerning, we are doing true cases of wrongful convictions or. Or other similar miscarriages of justice. A better service because we can focus our energy on the ones that deserve support versus ones that, you know, someone's launching a podcast and they gotta make a. They gotta hit Apple number one. You know, I mean, like, that's what. That's what so many of them are. It's just a cash grab, true crime industrial complex. We can do better by actually saying, like, here's a case where. And also what happened in this case that made this happen. Like, the intensive, grueling interrogations, they'll, like, just kind of going with it. Even though there was, you know, the development of DNA evidence being more crucial. Like, there's all kinds of lessons we can take from these that can also help innocent people in the future.
- [40:04]
E
So with that said, can I start telling a story and then perhaps you finish it?
- [40:09]
C
Yeah, I guess so. My dogs, ladies and gentlemen.
- [40:14]
E
The dogs.
- [40:15]
C
The dogs.
- [40:16]
E
So, first of all, I should mention that maybe some of you have seen Leave it to Beaver. The mother on Leave it to Beaver often wears, like, little dresses and frocks as she goes about her business in the house. Anya dresses like that at home?
- [40:31]
C
No, I don't.
- [40:32]
E
Well, certainly today. Certainly today you're wearing a dress.
- [40:35]
C
Sound like some 1950s housewife.
- [40:39]
E
I'm saying you always dress in a stylish way.
- [40:41]
C
That's not true.
- [40:42]
E
And today you happen to be wearing a little dress.
- [40:44]
C
People, if you see me out there, I'm. I'm not going to be dressed salishly. Don't get excited.
- [40:49]
E
Are you wearing a little dress today?
- [40:50]
C
It's a crucial dress. I wouldn't call it a little dress. That just sounds weird. But I am wearing a dress.
- [40:54]
E
You're wearing a dress. Today is crucial to the story. And something happened at our house. We need a service person to come in and help us because God knows we're inept. And if we tried to fix something ourselves, people would die. Is that fair to say?
- [41:12]
C
I think that's fair to say.
- [41:13]
E
I think the house would collapse, follow
- [41:16]
C
the house of Greenlee.
- [41:18]
E
It would be a disaster. So someone's coming. And I said, well, you know, Anya, we have these dogs. Why don't we, like, tether them upstairs so they won't bother this service person at all? And Anya says, no, Kumbaya. I want them to meet the serviceman. And why don't you take over the story from there? You said it'd be all peace and love. We'll all be out in the mountains singing about how much we love Coca Cola. It'll be wonderful.
- [41:45]
C
Yeah, that is what I envisioned, actually. And, yeah. So the guy comes, and I'm like, okay, we'll just kind of, like, have them on the leash and kind of introduce them to him slowly. You know, they need to get used to people and not trying to, you know, go nuts. So we. The guy comes in, and Nick, in particular is like, I'm gonna kill this guy. Like, he was so mad that there was another person in our house. Now, we've had friends over. We've had Kevin's parents over. You know, we've had different people over, but for some reason, he was really pissed with this guy. And it wasn't anything the guy did. It was just. I don't know, he was in a mood. Maybe we handled it wrong. I don't know.
- [42:22]
E
Maybe one of us handled it wrong by saying, well, you know, oh, oh, hippie, dippy, love fest. It'll be wonderful. Kumbaya.
- [42:30]
C
When we've done. When we put them upstairs in the past, they bark so loud, I can't hear what the service person's saying. So I didn't want to. I wanted to avoid that. I wanted them to just calm down and be well behaved for two seconds of their lives.
- [42:41]
E
So totally unrealistic.
- [42:43]
C
Yeah. Which apparently is totally, totally, way too much to ask of these freaking dogs. So anyways, so then the guy, he's coming in, and I'm talking to him, and these dogs are going nuts. They're going crazy. I'm embarrassed. I'm like, look, you know, there's nothing more humiliating than, like, my dog is so badly trained, he's losing it right now. You know, we've tried with both of them, and it's just, you know, it's always, you know, two steps forward, three steps back, and we get them. And then Nick, I'm like. I'm just like. I've been Betrayed by my dogs. Like, that's why I say, like, I've been betrayed. I get very easily embarrassed. So Nick is jumping up and his. He's jumping up behind me because I'm kind of trying to hold him behind me to prevent him from, you know, kind of going at this guy.
- [43:31]
E
And Anya's wearing.
- [43:32]
C
I'm wearing a dress. His nails get caught in my skirt, and then he jumps up. So I'm like, I'm really hoping this guy didn't see anything. But it was. It was certainly more than anyone bargained for today. And I was just like. I was just like, my dog humiliates me in front of this working man who is just coming here to try to fix part of our house. And Nick, you know, is essentially trying to, like, you know, make me look like a complete idiot in front of him. I. I'm just. I'm humiliated again. Kevin assures me he's pretty sure the guy didn't see my underpants, but I'm still devastated. And I. Again, this is going to haunt me. It's just going to haunt me for the rest of my life. And Nick, the poor choices he made. The poor choices we made, and sort of just. It's just.
- [44:20]
E
The poor choices one of us made.
- [44:21]
C
The poor choices you made for frickin single.
- [44:24]
E
Hey.
- [44:24]
C
Hey. Anya, this is a dog I want you to meet. Hey. He's a really mentally ill, husky mix, but we can handle that. You know, I'm like, you're the one who wanted this insane dog. Everyone who sees, like, he looks absolutely insane. When you take a picture of him, he looks insane. He's like, he. He gets. He looks normal one minute, and then the next thing, you look over and his eyes are, like, all black. You know what I'm talking about? When you see a dog like that and you're like, whoa, you're totally nuts right now. He's so insane. I'm humiliated. My dogs are traitors. Nora didn't help matters. Nora was also running around. Nora is like, oh, he's freaking out, so I better freak out, too. It's like, nora, you're. You're a phony. You don't even care. This doesn't matter to you. You're just doing it because he's doing it. It's ridiculous. And I'm just. I'm. My dogs are just bad people sometimes. And that's what I just have to. They're bad.
- [45:13]
E
In fairness, dealing with these dogs has made us lose a lot of weight.
- [45:22]
C
Yeah. Made you lose a lot of weight.
- [45:25]
E
I've lost about £50. I think. You lost about 20.
- [45:28]
C
Yeah. That is one thing I will say for husky mixes. They force us to be walking and outside constantly. And I think we were both, like, really depressed, because now I feel a lot better and a lot more energy because we're walking with them. So in that way, they're actually, like, really rude and unpleasant personal trainers, but in many other ways, they're just an embarrassment. The thing I always say about Nick and Nora is a lot more chill. So, like, actually after. After they were messing around with the wires and doing all sorts of stuff, we kicked Nick out of the office. He can still see us. He's chilling behind the baby gate. He's very mad at us. But Nora is just chilling in here with us because she's more relaxed and she's just kind of snugged up on the couch. But this is what I say about Nick. There's, like, a tweet that I always think is funny, and I quoted it to Kevin, and we decided this. This tweet captures Nick's energy. Is that fair to say?
- [46:24]
E
Yes.
- [46:25]
C
So the tweet is. It's. I don't. I don't know how much pop culture we should get into, but it's basically like there was a. There was a time where the. The singer Sabrina Carpenter was dating the actor Barry Keoghan. And this is how. This is how the tweet goes. And I guess he was playing the joker. So it's like Sabrina Carpenter. So what's the joker? Barry Keogan. He's sort of like an evil person. So whenever we're out with Nick and he's doing something bad, we always just say he's sort of like an evil person. He really is. It's like just. He just goes into his demon mode. I mean, but, like, not in a violent way, just in more of, like, a. Like, this bad choices way. And he's so proud. Like, like, we. We came. We gave him a walk the other day, and he was all hyped up, and I swear, it was like I was walking him. It was like walking one of those balloon characters from the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. He's, like, in the air, all four paws, well, off the ground, just, like, hovering. Like, I mean, like, he's, like, airborne. He's the bounciest dog I've ever met. He's, like, flying in the air. He's running around. He's doing, like, commando roles. Do you remember that?
- [47:50]
E
Yeah.
- [47:50]
C
Like, what was that?
- [47:52]
E
But you've lost £20.
- [47:56]
C
Yeah, you've lost 50. I mean, I. I am impressed. I mean, I'm impressed with his energy. And I'm. I'm. Don't. Before anyone comes at me, I love these dogs. I did jokingly say that we should bring them back to the shelter after the guy. After the working man left. The workman left.
- [48:11]
E
But after he stripped you in front of a stranger.
- [48:13]
C
Yeah, after he totally humiliated me while I was trying to talk to somebody about necessary home improvements. But I also. But I also love them dearly. I mean, they're just. They're just so crazy. They're just like a whirlwind. But, you know, if you're. If you're looking to get more physically active, I definitely. I mean, everyone told us they were like, don't get the. Don't get the husky mixes. Don't get the huskies. They're crazy. Because you said you wanted a talking dog, and everyone's like, the huskies are nuts. And I definitely see that, but they're really funny, and they really amuse me a lot. And they're actually getting along really well. We were worried at first. We were worried that Nick was kind of too much of a brat sometimes, like, and jealous. And we were worried he was going to resource guard. But we took it pretty slow in introducing them. And now they seem to really like each other. Sometimes they'll kind of snuggle a little bit, so it's very cute. He'll give her kisses, you know, So I. I think it's actually, you know, you gotta watch them. Gotta make sure that they don't start competing over some dumb thing. But I think they're. They're. It's working.
- [49:13]
E
So before we go, be honest. Be honest.
- [49:16]
C
What?
- [49:17]
E
In our Lost episode, I went on probably for what, what, 10, 15, an hour? 20, 30 minutes? About two hours painting a delightfully whimsical picture of what a dog casino would be like.
- [49:32]
C
Yeah.
- [49:32]
E
And that was lost because of a technical problem.
- [49:34]
C
Because of the dogs.
- [49:35]
E
Anya, did you pull the plug? No, because I don't think you were enjoying the picture I was painting of the dog.
- [49:42]
C
It just seemed to be going on a long time. I was fine with the picture you were painting, but the dogs were like, what were they, like, playing over by you? And they were both jumping on you. And then, you know, Kevin is going back to his old habits because he, you know, we're recording on this desktop. He's got, like. Instead of having the audio appear so you can actually see it and make sure it's being recording. He loves to have the text of our notes up so he can read it, even though he has a laptop. And there were. There were. There were demonstrations about this recently. But. But, you know, we gotta just keep him. We gotta monitor the situation. That's my motto. Gotta monitor the audio situation. But these dogs. Yeah, they're. They're funny. They're just menaces, you know, so.
- [50:27]
E
I didn't even know you had a motto.
- [50:29]
C
Well, that's my. I gotta monitor you and them, apparently, and the audio, so.
- [50:34]
E
Is that what you want on your tombstone? Anya Cain, monitor the situation?
- [50:38]
C
No, I don't want that.
- [50:41]
E
What do you want on your tombstone?
- [50:42]
C
I don't want a tombstone. Just cremate me and dump me somewhere.
- [50:46]
E
I don't know, maybe dump you in an ash heap behind the dog casino.
- [50:55]
C
That makes it sound like the dog mobsters murdered me.
- [50:58]
E
Well, you wiped out our dream. The picture I painted. I didn't do anything.
- [51:05]
C
I didn't do anything. And I even contributed a little pun to you because we're going to be staying in the Flamingo right now. I mean, I guess it's. I guess we could tell people that.
- [51:15]
E
Well, we already have.
- [51:16]
C
I guess we did. We're doxing ourselves in Vegas.
- [51:20]
E
It's a big hotel. We're not giving out our room number. Anya. Don't worry. Aren't we.
- [51:26]
C
That's for the subscription people. But, yeah, we. I said, you know. You said. What would that be called? I said, it could be called the Dingo, so. See, I was. I was trying to support you in your dog casino dreams. I just thought it was like, you were, like, acting like people can come there with their dogs, and I'm, like, the only people who would come there would probably be pretty severe gambling addicts.
- [51:49]
E
Let's not try to recreate the magic of the dog casino.
- [51:53]
C
Okay, fine.
- [51:54]
E
It's. God.
- [51:55]
C
It's the magic, and you're blaming me?
- [51:58]
E
I think you pulled the plug.
- [51:59]
C
The rift caused a rift in our marriage. I didn't do anything. I don't know how I. What did I. What did I train the dogs to go interrupt you and pull a wire? Or is it more likely that the dogs correctly see you as an easy mark?
- [52:16]
E
Let me.
- [52:17]
C
Yeah, no. Okay, let's talk about.
- [52:20]
E
Let me say this, and then we'll wrap. You're saying I'm an easy. You are who? You're the fun parents. Which one of us was publicly stripped today?
- [52:30]
C
Me, because I was trying to enforce discipline.
- [52:34]
E
They can't.
- [52:34]
C
When I tell the dogs to do something, they do it more often than not. When you tell them to do something, they're like, ha. And then like, suddenly you're on the ground being like, you know, licked and bitten and all this stuff. They, they, they respect my authority. You are not the fun. You are the fun parent.
- [52:50]
E
And yet I was fully clothed.
- [52:52]
C
Yes, because you're not wearing a dress.
- [52:55]
E
They said, let's leave Kevin's pants up.
- [52:59]
C
I would say you're losing a lot of weight. So I would not boast about this because there's like a non zero chance something happens on a walk at some point.
- [53:10]
E
I think the dogs have too much respect for me.
- [53:12]
C
I, I don't think that. I don't think that's true at all. I think Nora is more respectful of both of us, but sometimes she just wants to add to the chaos that Nick is creating.
- [53:21]
E
I think we need to go.
- [53:22]
C
All right, bye, everybody.
- [53:25]
E
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [53:45]
C
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [54:09]
E
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [54:20]
C
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. It we mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.