Kevin Greenlee (2:22)

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Anya Cain (3:07)

Get adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives, but are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com wondery greenlight.com wondery content warning this episode contains discussion of murder as well as domestic violence. So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going to Missouri, we're going to be going to Hawaii, we're going to be going to Tennessee, and then we're going to be returning to our beloved state of Indiana.

Kevin Greenlee (3:56)

You spent a lot of time planning that itinerary. I know. And then at the end of the episode, stay tuned because we're going to have some news about a live appearance. We have this coming up.

Anya Cain (4:05)

Absolutely. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (4:10)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (4:12)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (4:14)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

Anya Cain (4:20)

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Cheat Sheet. Self publishing and selfies it.

Kevin Greenlee (5:10)

I think we're going to start this week. Correct me if I'm wrong, misconductor, but we're going to start this week in the Show Me State. The great state of Missouri.

Anya Cain (5:19)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (5:20)

And our source for this was SCOTUS Blog and the Supreme Court of the United States of America. So one thing I really love about the law is that oftentimes in the law or in life or in the academic setting, you get kind of abstract questions that don't sound particularly interesting. And in the law, when those questions come up, there's always a really interesting story or a case behind it. And so the abstract question in this. This is the case of Shockley versus Vandegrift. Kind of the abstract question here is, well, in different parts of the United States, different courts of appeals have some different rules about what is needed in order for your appeal to continue. In some states, you just need one judge to look at it and say, hey, I think there's an issue here. And even if the other judges disagree, that's enough. And some other states, no, you need more. And so the question is, is that fair? Is it fair or right if in one part of the United States you get this right and you get this privilege to have your case continued, while in another part of the United States, the very same circumstances, you don't? So that's the question. And let me tell you about this case, and it is an interesting one, has a few twists and turns. So there is this man named Lance Shockley, and he gets involved in a traffic accident. It's actually a drunken driving traffic accident where his. A relative of his is actually killed in the accident. And he is investigated by the police for possibly being involved in this accident.

Anya Cain (7:20)

Well, like, I mean, like, as in he's possibly the drunken party.

Kevin Greenlee (7:24)

Yes. And he's also suspected of leaving the scene of the accident. So basically, he's under suspicion for causing a death as a result of his drunk driving, a pretty serious offense. As this investigation is going on, the investigator is murdered and the. And Shockley is charged with murder, murdering that man. And he's ultimately convicted of that crime and sentenced to death.

Anya Cain (7:57)

And, and that. And. And that that person he murdered was Sergeant Carl Dwayne Graham Jr. Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (8:06)

Thanks for making sure his name gets mentioned.

Anya Cain (8:08)

I always like to make sure we mention the name of the victim and not just the perpetrator, because the victim is ultimately who should be remembered. And he left behind a very young son. And I actually read an article on the Missouri State Highway Patrol website about him, and he sounded like a really terrific guy.

Kevin Greenlee (8:26)

Yeah, he was just doing his job, and he certainly did not deserve to have this happen to him.

Anya Cain (8:32)

And it's just. Can I just also say, how unusual is it? You and I know this? In movies, right? In films, you'd think that, you know, people were constantly trying to murder detectives, Journalists, like, anyone who's looking into anything really doesn't happen that often, so. Because it's a very stupid thing to do, you know, usually a sign of a pretty impulsive and, frankly, stupid offender. But in this case, obviously, it did happen.

Kevin Greenlee (8:58)

Unfortunately, law enforcement officers take that very seriously, understandably. And I remember, of all things, I'm having a flashback to an episode of the Colored Dragnet I saw years ago as a child where they're discussing the issue of cop killers. And Jill Friday says, yes, police officers take that extra seriously. And one reason is, if you're crazy enough to kill a police officer, what would you not do?

Anya Cain (9:26)

Yeah, yeah, fair.

Kevin Greenlee (9:28)

And certainly if you try to kill a police officer in what seems to be a pretty transparent attempt to stop an investigation into your crime, that's not going to work.

Anya Cain (9:38)

Yeah, it's stupid and it's impulsive and it's definitely a scary thing because as you said, what will they do next?

Kevin Greenlee (9:46)

So he, as I say, he's charged, he is tried, he is convicted, he's ultimately sentenced to death. But something. Let's go back to the beginning of his trial. Anya, as you know from our experience in Delphi elsewhere, what's like the very first thing that happens in a trial?

Anya Cain (10:05)

Jury selection.

Kevin Greenlee (10:06)

Jury selection. And so as they're seating the jury, one person who's being considered for the jury says, you know, I think you guys should know, the lawyers, the judge, you should know I'm a self published author. It's important for you guys to know that.

Anya Cain (10:26)

Buy my book on Amazon.

Kevin Greenlee (10:28)

And the lawyer's like, oh, okay, good for you. And they don't really take that too seriously. And so the moment passes. This man ends up getting seated on the jury. And so what the attorney didn't do is ask, well, tell us about your self published books. And his self published book was, he described it as like a fictionalized autobiography where a character apparently based on this juror himself is upset that a person was involved in a drunk driving incident and got probation for it, got a slap on their wrist from the system, and this person goes out and gets revenge against the drunk driver. And that's a set of facts that is not identical to the situation that Mr. Shockley was in. But it's also not that far off.

Anya Cain (11:25)

It's intriguing.

Kevin Greenlee (11:27)

And if you have a person on the jury who obviously has very strong feelings about that and has feelings of people charged with this might get off too easily, that's a potential issue. And so this actually comes out and is revealed between the time the man is convicted of the crime, but prior to the sentencing. And so when that comes out, the judge says to the defense attorney, obviously I'm paraphrasing. The judge says, hey, this is a pretty big deal. If you want, we can call the jurors in and you can ask them about this on the record, about if they knew about this book, if it influenced them, anything of that nature. And the defense attorney says, nah, we don't need to do that. And so because of that, a lot of information that could have been relevant was not put on the record. And as I say, the man went on to be sentenced to death. So subsequently it is revealed that this man, this self published author, and I should say he was kicked off the jury once that was revealed. But he shared copies of this self published book with court personnel, I think some bailiffs. He shared copies of the book with other jurors. And so why would that be troubling, Anya?

Anya Cain (12:57)

I guess if he's giving out this book that reflects his opinion on drunk drivers slash violent people, then he is potentially influencing other members of the jury with his opinions. Is that it?

Kevin Greenlee (13:17)

Yeah. The obvious question would be, how would you feel? You're on trial for stealing cereal and one of the jurors wrote a self published manifesto about how people who steal cereal and love trains should be killed. And then he gives this to everybody on the jury. I think you might be concerned that maybe that influenced some opinions.

Anya Cain (13:39)

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess one gap for me here is he's on trial for murdering a police officer. Right? I mean, he's not on trial for drunk driving.

Kevin Greenlee (13:50)

That is correct.

Anya Cain (13:51)

So we're kind of beyond that point, you know. And you know, I guess to me, I mean, I think of myself as, you know, if I was on a jury, some guy was passing around a self published book about this, I'd be kind of like, okay, I'd probably be like, that's nice and like, that's kind of quirky. But I wouldn't like be like, I'm going to adopt this man's opinions on everything wholesale. So I don't know. I mean, I think I can, I understand why they made a big deal about it. Not really sure why the defense attorney at the time didn't make a bigger deal about it. It just seems to me like it's weird enough but like, I don't necessarily, I don't know, am I minimizing it too much? Maybe I'm just putting my own, my own feelings about it would just be, I'd be like, okay, thanks for the book, man, like, whatever. Kind of, kind of odd. But you know, good for you. You're out there hustling, we're trying to sell books, he's trying to sell books. You know, you gotta respect.

Kevin Greenlee (14:47)

Wait in My mind, I can understand why the defense attorney, the guy says, oh, I'm a self published author. I could imagine why the defense attorney doesn't say, oh, tell us about your book, sir. I can understand that he should have. Obviously he should have. I could understand why he chose not to do that. I don't understand why, when the trial judge basically is saying, there's a big enough problem here, we should have a hearing where you look into it more and get more information. I don't understand why he didn't take that invitation up.

Anya Cain (15:20)

That seems like a big mistake. But I mean, is it enough to like, overturn it is an ineffective.

Kevin Greenlee (15:27)

Well, there is a quote, the Supreme Court was asked to hear this case. And I will get to that in a moment. But a quote from Sonia Sotomayor, justice of the Court. She says it is difficult to see how an attorney's decision not to call witnesses in support of a credible mistrial motion when invited to do so by the presiding judge in a capital murder trial could fail to constitute an effective assistant of counsel.

Anya Cain (16:00)

Yeah, I can understand where she's coming from there.

Kevin Greenlee (16:03)

I think that's pretty, pretty extreme. So with that said, this was taken to two different appellate courts in Missouri, and they did not side with Mr. Shockley, although in one of the court of appeals, one judge did. It was heard by a panel of three judges, I believe, and two judges says, no, this, this isn't an issue. And one judge said, yes, it is. And in some other jurisdictions, that would be enough to get the appellate process to continue, but not in Missouri. And so Mr. Shockley's attorneys went to the Supreme Court and said, can you guys look at this? One of the things the Supreme Court does is if two different high level courts in the United States are saying different things, sometimes the Supreme Court will look into it and say, well, here's how it should be resolved. But in this case, the Supreme Court decided, well, you know, this is just an administrative matter for the different courts, not really worth looking into. And so they are not going to hear the case.

Anya Cain (17:11)

Okay, do you agree with that or you think they should have?

Kevin Greenlee (17:15)

I think that my opinion is I think they should have over and above the specific facts of this case. It makes me uncomfortable when there are situations where if I am in Indiana, I have a different set of rights than I have in Missouri than I have in California. I would think that if I qualify to have my court case move forward in one state, it should be very similar, especially when it's a federal issue.

Anya Cain (17:46)

So I want to make sure I have one thing clear. I don't know if I understood this properly. So this jury foreman, he was the foreman, the author, the self published author. So did he was. He kicked off the case after the.

Kevin Greenlee (18:03)

Conviction, but before the sentencing.

Anya Cain (18:05)

Okay.

Kevin Greenlee (18:07)

And so I should have made that clear. And I should also make it clear. These are like federal courts in different federal courts across the country have different standards about how things should move forward. So the Supreme Court is being asked to decide federal law and settle it, and they chose not to do it in this case.

Anya Cain (18:28)

Yeah. So what I was going to say before the sentencing. So he didn't have ultimately, I mean, I guess who decided the sentencing? The judge.

Kevin Greenlee (18:38)

The judge ultimately decided the sentence.

Anya Cain (18:39)

Okay.

C (18:40)

So.

Kevin Greenlee (18:40)

Because the jury couldn't agree.

Anya Cain (18:42)

So the. Okay, well, okay, that's one thing where I'm kind of like, I don't know in this case. Because if, if the concern is this guy infected, like this guy whipped everyone into a frenzy and we need to give this guy the death sentence. And then they voted for that. And that's how he got the death sentence. I think that's. Although I guess you could say maybe he prevented them from being able to vote against the death penalty in this case. So maybe there's that.

Kevin Greenlee (19:09)

Maybe he said, oh, it's so awful when people involved with drunk driving get a slap on their wrist. We have to take this very, very seriously. Make sure this guy pays the price.

Anya Cain (19:17)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Again, at this point we're beyond drunk driving. So I mean, if you wrote something about. If he wrote a similar story about a cop killer, then I might be a little bit more like, yeah, that's one for one. Obviously this is a good lesson to like, not do anything like this if you are called to a jury. And also just, you know, if you have something where you wrote something and it kind of even just barely mirrors the facts of the case, be really loud about that. Like, you don't want something going on like this. Right?

Kevin Greenlee (19:51)

Yeah, this guy tried. In fairness, he brought the issue to the attention.

Anya Cain (19:55)

I don't blame this juror. I don't. I mean, like, know, we kind of joked a little bit about him bringing in his books, but I, you know, he did. He wasn't like, he was concealing it. He was like, this is what I, this is what I do. And no one asked him about it. So I mean. Yeah, but I think, you know, I don't blame the defense train for not picking up on that immediately. It is kind of odd that they didn't do anything when they were kind of basically nudge, nudge. You want to do something about this?

Kevin Greenlee (20:20)

But I don't know, it's also a lesson to attorneys if someone in the jury selection process thinks to raise an issue.

Anya Cain (20:29)

Yeah, like why are you bringing that up right now?

Kevin Greenlee (20:31)

Yeah, why do you think it's relevant to mention that you're a self published author, sir? Yeah.

Anya Cain (20:36)

Tell us more about this. And if it's just something like, oh, I write, you know, like just like something like romance novels, then okay, well, we don't need to worry about it. But if it's something more than, then you can be aware. But yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Hello again, murder Sheet people. Thank you so much for sticking around. So. So here's that special sneak peek we let you know about earlier. Check out this new podcast from ABC Audio. It's called the Crime Scene Weekly, and it's awesome.

Kevin Greenlee (21:02)

The Crime Scene Weekly features ABC News correspondent Brad Milkey interviewing journalists who report on the ground about the hottest headlines and the most disturbing tales.

Anya Cain (21:13)

In the latest episode, Brad is going to talk to ABC News reporter Matt Gutman about one story that's gripped true crime, the resentencing efforts of Eric and Lyle Menendez. Keep listening and you'll get to hear the first few minutes of the episode. Anyways, here's the clip. We think you're going to really like it.

D (21:33)

35 years after the gruesome double murder that gripped the nation, the Menendez brothers are back in the spotlight and fighting for their freedom. But it's not just what you know, it's who you know and who you can get on your side. Over the last couple weeks, that's all changing. Welcome to the crime scene. I'm Brad Milkey. I host ABC's Daily News podcast. Start here. And every week we're bringing you the latest on what's big and what's new in the true crime scene. This week we're talking to ABC chief national correspondent Matt Gutman, who's based in LA and has been following this case for years. He's with us now. Hey, Matt.

C (22:11)

Hey, Brad.

D (22:12)

Before we get into the recent news, I just want to revisit some important details here because I grew up in Southern California, Matt, like I grew up on the OJ Trial, the Tupac killing. And yet this still remains one of the most infamous double murders of its day. So Lyle and Eric Menendez, 18 and 21, gunned down and killed their parents, Jose Menendez and Kitty Menendez in Beverly Hills that's not in dispute, right? They were convicted of murdering their parents. Can you take us back to that time? What was life like for this family?

C (22:41)

We're talking about Kitty and Jose Menendez. And Jose Menendez was really a star in the entertainment world, right? He's involved in music producing, he has become a millionaire, he has single handedly raised his family and all of his extended family up. This is an American success story, right? Basically came from Cuba, they were virtually penniless. And now he is living in a multimillion dollar Beverly Hills mansion. He's got these two kids, Eric and Lyle, chiseled faces, forearms muscled and veined from tennis and sports. And they're just like poster children of Beverly Hills kids, you know, with these mops of thick dark hair, you know, they look the part. But obviously something went very, very wrong. And on this hot August 20th night, 1989, Kitty and Jose are gunned down. And not just gunned down. This is like brutal, nasty, visceral, up close murder. Shotgun blasts to the kneecaps, to the back of the head on Jose. The mother is crawling, at some point she's shotgunned. They actually had to reload the shotguns, whoever the assailants were. And it was so gruesome that police didn't quite know what to make of it initially, especially because Eric and Lyle Menendez, as you mentioned, 18 to 21 at the time, were like, hey, it's not us. There were intruders. And then the different stories started to come out and they never quite made sense. And then In March of 1990, police pretty much started to piece together what was going on. They arrested Eric and Lyle and they understood that these two young men had premeditated this murder. They had planned to murder their parents. They had purchased shotguns, they had driven down to near San Diego to buy them. They had shotgunned their parents, they had reloaded at some point. It was face to face and intimate. This was a killing that involved a tremendous amount of personal hatred.

D (25:00)

And so in 1993, their trials began. I think they were tried separately at the time, right. They both pleaded not guilty. What was the claim they were making?

C (25:09)

Right, Brad? They are now saying that they murdered their parents because they had to, because of self defense, because they were afraid of their father. And this unspools something else that was also completely novel and really sort of earth shattering. There was now open talk in court and in the public about these two now young men being sexually abused by their father. Brad.

D (25:32)

Well, and speaking of this moment, this was also the beginning of cameras in courtrooms as we now know them. And there's footage from this trial that ABC has. And in fact, here's a clip of Lyle Menendez on the stand trying talking about what again at this moment was sort of earth shattering for us to hear. So let's listen to that.

Kevin Greenlee (25:48)

So that is the Crime Scene Weekly. Please check it out and let us know what you think. We love chatting about our favorite true crime podcast with other listeners to hear the rest of the episode, including real courtroom audio obtained by ABC News. Find the Crime Scene Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

Anya Cain (26:04)

That's the Crime Scene Weekly.

Kevin Greenlee (26:08)

What do you think about the larger issue? Do you, do you think federal courts in different part of the, of the the country should be able to administer things involving matters like this differently?

Anya Cain (26:21)

No. Yeah. That seems bad. Like simply.

Kevin Greenlee (26:26)

No, the court seems to be taking the position here that if it's basically not substantive law is basically they just have different differences of opinions on administrative or procedural things. And obviously you don't necessarily have to have the Supreme Court come in to say you have to do your procedural things and your administrative things the same way. I feel this rises above that.

Anya Cain (26:54)

Right.

Kevin Greenlee (26:55)

And I think my federal rights in Indiana should be the same as my federal rights in Missouri is the same as my federal rights in New York. But that's just me, right?

Anya Cain (27:04)

Yeah. Fair. Well, I mean, that's an interesting case you found out in Missouri.

Kevin Greenlee (27:09)

Yes. The show me state.

Anya Cain (27:11)

So this is now he's. Is he done? I mean, is he like that was his shot.

Kevin Greenlee (27:15)

His case was not going to be heard by the Supreme Court of this great land. So his attorneys might try to come up with something else. I don't know.

Anya Cain (27:27)

I'm sure they will. But, you know. Yeah. So are we on to Hawaii now?

Kevin Greenlee (27:32)

Sure. Always happy to hop on the Kane Plain and head across the Pacific Ocean to Hawaii. I believe this case kind of involves two different islands, right?

Anya Cain (27:44)

Yes, it does. Oahu and Maui, Oahu being where the capital of Hawaii is, which of course is Honolulu. But today we're going to talk and this is actually thanks to a wonderful, lovely listener who sent us the document. So thank you to that person. And this is a case we previously, previously covered. It is the the case of Gerhardt Koenig. This is a person, a physician we mentioned earlier on the show. He's an anesthesiologist who is accused of attempting to kill his wife. And now we have the probable cause affidavit. So that's even more details now than we had before about what happened. And it's a very chilling document. It's short, and I'm going to read part of it, but I, you know, just. Domestic violence, obviously, is going to be discussed.

Kevin Greenlee (28:33)

Probable cause affidavit. What does that mean?

Anya Cain (28:37)

Why do you ask me? You explain. Jump in. Just jump in and explain.

Kevin Greenlee (28:41)

A probable cause affidavit is basically when arrest is made. You can't just go around and arrest people because they annoy you. Otherwise, Anya and I would be in a lot of trouble.

Anya Cain (28:54)

No. Can I tell you, though, when we looked up, we looked up on Newspapers.com a guy with my ancestor's name. You remember this, Kevin?

Kevin Greenlee (29:02)

Yes.

Anya Cain (29:03)

And. And so we. We don't know if it's the same guy, but he had my ancestor's name, and he lived in Brooklyn at the time that my ancestor would have probably lived in Brooklyn. And we saw that a guy with that name got arrested for being annoying. That's what it said. The newspaper literally said. And I'm like, yeah, that is definitely my ancestor.

Kevin Greenlee (29:21)

So. So you can't just arrest somebody for no reason. You have to be able to explain to the court, we want to arrest this person for this particular crime. We have probable cause to believe that this person committed this crime. And here's what makes us believe we have probable cause. So it's basically an explanation for why an arrest was made.

Anya Cain (29:46)

Exactly. See, people want to hear you explain legal concepts. They don't want to hear me badly explain legal concepts and then have. You have to correct it. So you might as well save time. Just say, say it. So, yeah, this is a probable cause affidavit, and I'm not going to be naming witnesses, and I'm also not going to be naming the victim in this case or the. The, you know, the victims. Who. Who is alleging the abuse and who's alleging the attempted homicide. So I'm just going to, I think, use initials here, but I think I'll just read through. There's a couple of. About two pages here. So I'm just going to read through the probable cause affidavit and then we can discuss it, Quote, that your affiant is currently assigned to the Honolulu Police Department here and after hpd, Strategic Enforcement Detail here and after sed, which works under the Criminal Investigation Division here and after SCID, on March 24, 2025, Officer Ken Chun, hereafter referred to as Officer Chunky, was assigned to District 5 in uniform patrol and responded to an incident of assault reported at Poly Lookout. Specifically on the Polypooka Trail in Honolulu, Hawaii. Upon arrival, Officer Chun made contact with the female caller who was one of two witnesses to the event. A hereina after referred to as A and S, herein after referred to as s, had called 911 to report witnessing an assault between a male and a female on the Polypooka Trail. Officer Chun spoke to the victim at the scene, later identified as ak, hereinafter referred to as ak, who was verbally identified and appeared sober and coherent during the course of the investigation. AK stated that she was on the Polypooka Trail with her husband, later identified as Gerhard Koenig. She mentioned that while on the trail, Koenig was standing close to the edge and asked her to take a selfie with him. AK expressed that she did not feel comfortable taking a picture with him that close to the edge, so she declined to begin to walk back. AK stated that Koenig then yelled at her to come back and when she refused, he pushed her into the bushes and they began to struggle. AK managed to get away from him. She reported that Koenig then picked up a rock and struck her on the head approximately 10 times while also grabbing the back of her hair and smashing her face into the ground. AK indicated that she was yelling for help and heard two the two other hikers she was able to crawl over to them. AK observed Koenig take out two syringes from his bag and attempt to use them on her, but she was able to get them away from her. She stated that she did not give Koenig permission to assault her and that she is willing to press charges. Officer Chin met with A, who was verbally identified and appeared sober and coherent during the course of the investigation. A stated that on March 24, 2025 at about 10:28 hours, she began hiking up Polypuka. Approximately five to ten minutes into her hike, she heard a woman screaming help. Help me. Repeatedly prompting her to run to the top as she thought someone was falling off the side of the mountain. When A reached the top, she saw a girl lying on her back in the grass with a man on top of her hitting her on the head. A described that the man had a rock in his hand and when he saw her she stopped and got off of the woman. A recalled the woman, later identified as A.K. stated, He is trying to kill me. He is hitting me in the head with a rock. Concerned for her safety, A stepped away while her friend s called 91 1, all the while keeping an eye on Koenig and AK. According to a, AK was able to move away from Koenig and towards her once A re. Once AK reached her, Koenig moved up the trail toward the puka. A related that AK did not pass out and was talking to them the entire time. AK informed A that it was her husband Koenig who had assaulted her. A stated that she was would be able to identify the suspect if seen again. AK sustained multiple large lacerations to her face and head as a result of the altercation. Emergency Medical Services EMS arrived shortly after the incident and transported AK to Queens Medical center in serious but stable condition for further evaluation and treatment. On March 24, 2025, after speaking to AK and the two witnesses, Officer Chun formed police dispatch to broadcast an all points bulletin or APB for Koenig. Last seen wearing a light gray T shirt, blue shorts, and last seen going up the Polypooka Trail. On March 24, 2025, Detective Tracy Spacek here and after Detective Spacek arrived at Queens Medical center to interview AK about the events that occurred at the Polypooka Trail. During the interview, AK disclosed that her husband Koenig was a suspect who attempted to kill her by striking her on the head with a rock approximately 10 times. She also reported that he tried to inject her with a syringe containing some sort of fluid. Detective SpaceX showed a current color photograph of Koenig, which AK positively identified as her husband, to all units in the area to assist in locating him. Detective Spacek requested assistance from SED to locate and arrest him. Arrived at Poly Lookout to carry out a comprehensive ground and area search. On March 24, 2025, at about 1810 hours, your affiant was making checks in the area and observed Koenig on foot walking down Nuano Poly Drive. Koenig was then placed under arrest for attempted murder in the second degree documented under Honolulu Police report number 251-10-958. The suspect verbally identified himself as Gerhard Koenig and his identity was also verified via the police database by photography and information provided by Koenig. The aforementioned facts and circumstances occurred entirely in the state of Hawaii, city and county of Honolulu. End quote. Okay, so obviously very disturbing, very disturbing, very upsetting. That what that sounds like to me. And again, innocent until proven guilty. These are all allegations at this point. But first of all, a damning affidavit if I've ever seen one. I mean, this attack is witnessed by people. The victim survives and is able to recount what happened and has to be treated in the hospital for getting, you know, hit in the head with a rock multiple times. But I, I was confused at when this story came out. It's like, you know, it almost was like it. Did he freak out because she didn't take a selfie with him? But what it sounds like. And again, this is all speculation based on what we've just read. Speculation based on some facts. I'm not. We'll have to see what Koenig's defense team has to say if he decides to go to trial and plead not guilty. But it sounds like he was going to push her off the mountain and kill her that way. The selfie was like a ruse and when she didn't want to do it, then he shifted and had backup methods for trying to kill her. Yes, that's what it sounds like. Yeah, it does because, you know, he's, he's prepared to attack her with a rock. He's prepared to inject her with mysterious syringes. He's a doctor, he's an anesthesiologist. So he presumably probably has some insights in what could, you know, what different drugs could do to a human body. But yeah, so they're, they're living in Maui, they're visiting Oahu and this happens. And yeah, the PCA kind of, you know, PCAs tend to be written in very kind of plain, matter of fact language and for the reasons that Kevin cited earlier because what they're supposed to do. But reading all this happening to this poor woman in this situation and you know, we talked about this last time, but this couple was, you know, highly educated, you know, people who are prominent in the community doing. Well, that doesn't matter. Domestic violence can happen to anyone in any social demographic or, you know, financial demographic or whatever. What have you any, any person in society, man or woman, you know, regardless of who you are, this can happen. And I'm very glad that this lady survived this horrible attack. But yeah, horrifying. I'm glad those other women stepped in, know, stepped in when they heard someone calling for help.

Kevin Greenlee (38:17)

Yeah, I, I am too.

Anya Cain (38:18)

Hello, Murder sheet. People, stick around for the end of today's episode because we have a sneak peek for a show that we think you guys are going to absolutely love.

Kevin Greenlee (38:27)

So stay with us and let us know what you think of the crime scene. Weekly from ABC Audio.

Anya Cain (38:34)

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Kevin Greenlee (40:24)

So far, it seems to be a pretty damning case.

Anya Cain (40:27)

Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (40:29)

And I, I hope his wife is doing okay.

Anya Cain (40:34)

Mm.

Kevin Greenlee (40:38)

So let's move on to the great state of Tennessee. Is that the Volunteer State? Yes, it is the great Volunteer state of Tennessee. And my source for this is newschannel9.com and it's kind of in a very loose way similar to the first case that I talked about today. Because it's important to remember that when we put someone on trial, not only there's a greater question of whether or not the person is guilty or innocent, we want afterwards to be able to say that we're completely confident in the verdict and we're completely confident in the process. In the first case where the man was convicted of killing an investigator, frankly, just taking an admittedly superficial look at it, he's probably guilty. But I'm not convinced that the process was completely fair enough for me to be able to say I have confidence in that verdict. And so this is a case where now in Tennessee, where a man named Darryl Roberts is about to go on trial for murder. And what's interesting here is they've Selected a jury, the jury hasn't been sworn in yet, and they start reading some charges that might be part of it and they accidentally, in the course of reading, refer to the man on trial is a convicted felon. And those were two words that were not supposed to be said in front of this potential jury because we all, human nature being what it is, if you hear that someone is a convicted felon, there's the chance that's going to affect your opinion of him and it's not going to be affected for the better.

Anya Cain (42:46)

Is it true that he is a convicted felon?

Kevin Greenlee (42:48)

Yes.

Anya Cain (42:48)

Oh, okay.

Kevin Greenlee (42:50)

So. But whether or not he's a convicted felon ultimately has nothing to do with whether or not he committed this specific murder.

Anya Cain (42:58)

No.

Kevin Greenlee (42:59)

And you don't want a person to be convicted of a crime just based on the fact that he did other bad stuff.

Anya Cain (43:06)

No. Yeah, you don't. Especially if it's not linked in some, you know, I mean, if it's. Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (43:12)

And it's hard to unring that bell with a jury. If the jurors hear that he's a convicted felon, even if the judge says, well, yeah, but don't think about that. Just, just forget you ever heard that.

Anya Cain (43:26)

Don't worry about it.

Kevin Greenlee (43:28)

That, that's hard to be confident that the jury would put that out of their mind.

Anya Cain (43:33)

Well, like, how can you, you know, like. Yeah, I mean, even if it's vague, it's, it's like, well, he got convicted in the past, so we probably did this one too. I mean, it's, it's, it. Yeah, you can't unring the bell.

Kevin Greenlee (43:46)

You can unring the bell because what it was, was one of the charges that was, they were considering charging him with possessing a firearm, which he wasn't allowed to do because he was a convicted felon. And they decided not to present that to the jury and just present the first degree murder charge. But there was a mistake made. And so the jury heard this thing about the convicted felon. And so after this happened, the judge talked with the prosecutors, he talked with the, the defense lawyers and they decided we just have to start over. So there's going to be a two week delay. They're going to start with a brand new jury. And that must be frustrating to the family and loved ones of the victim. But the thinking is ultimately it will save time because if this man goes on to be convicted, I would guarantee you that any appellate attorney worth their salt would immediately raise this issue as something.

Anya Cain (44:50)

Remember that time you guys called him a convicted felon? Yeah, I would imagine they would. And it is frustrating, but sometimes some frustration in the beginning is better than even more frustration down the road. And having to go through a trial all over again, you know, that's a nightmare. So, yeah, they're obviously doing the right things, and I think this is prudent on all sides where they're like, well, let's just start over. Better to start over at this point than start over when you're further down the road.

Kevin Greenlee (45:23)

Yeah, it's. It's frustrating, but it's necessary because, again, it's more than just guilt or innocence. We want it to be fair. And I don't think this would have been fair to continue.

Anya Cain (45:34)

Yeah. So what, what exactly is the guy accused of doing? I'm just curious.

Kevin Greenlee (45:39)

You mean the murder itself?

Anya Cain (45:41)

Yeah. Like, what's the underlying case here? I'm assuming it's a homicide.

Kevin Greenlee (45:44)

Yes, it's a homicide. He is charged with shooting a businessman named Christopher Wright on a sidewalk. And there was some. This crime was captured on a surveillance video and there were witnesses that identified this man is the shooter.

Anya Cain (46:04)

And they also looks like they found trace evidence of blood on his bathroom sink at his apartment and his light switches and. Yeah, interesting.

Kevin Greenlee (46:17)

Yeah. So it sounds like they have some pretty strong evidence there. But. So if he's convicted, let's convict him on that. Let's not convict him on stuff he may have done in the past.

Anya Cain (46:27)

Makes sense. Makes perfect sense.

Kevin Greenlee (46:30)

So I think you wanted to chug into our home station here in the great state of Indiana.

Anya Cain (46:35)

Yeah, Indiana. This is not a murder. This is kind of a mysterious and intriguing situation that is unfolding in our state. And it's really. Honestly, at this point, it's really just more smoke and mirrors and kind of pointing out, hey, what the heck is going on here? As opposed to any underlying crime. Because one odd thing about the situation is, like, there's a lot of stuff happening, but no one seems to know what exactly is anyone is accused of doing here, if any. Like, like. So my sources for this were Arse Technica as well as the Indiana Daily Student, which is a terrific student newspaper from Kevin's Indiana University. Kevin's alma mater. So Indiana University.

Kevin Greenlee (47:16)

So shout out to them Ernie Pyle School of Journalism. I don't know if they still call it that, but they should.

Anya Cain (47:21)

Yeah, it's. It's. I was a student journalist in college, so I always have a fun, fun spot for the, the student newspapers. And they do great work. They've. They've been covering this in depth I mean, they're. They're kicking butt, so congrats to them. WTHR has also been doing some great reporting. And so this is a situation in, involving. And I apologize if I pronounce any names wrong. I'm trying my best here, but Xiaofeng Wang, he is a professor, or was rather, I should say a professor at Indiana University in Bloomington. Had a residence in Bloomington as well as Carmel, Indiana, which is in Hamilton county to the north. And he was an associate dean, actually, at the Luddy School of Informatics, Computing and Engineering. This is a guy who was incredibly well respected in the sort of cyber security field, computers, computer scientist. These are things that you and I know nothing about. We, we are not technical people. But anyway, this man had a degree from Carnegie Mellon University, which is a terrific engineering school, and, you know, just very well respected his wife, a woman named Ma nli. She also worked, I believe, at one of the libraries associated with iu. And, yeah, so things are going great, right? They're this kind of academic power couple, seemingly, and doing good things. But this all kind of came crashing to a halt very recently when people started noticing that the Federal Bureau of Investigation as well as the Department of Homeland Security were raiding residents 2 Residences in Bloomington and Carmel. And it turns out they were both belonging to Wang. And then things got weirder because on the same day that these raids were occurring, the university fired him. Just sort of like that, you know, like. So like it. No one knows what he's accused of. The FBI isn't saying anything. The school is very vague. So this is what the Indiana Daily Student had to say about it. They got some information. They. They had a document from the provost of the school, whose name is Rahul Shrivastav. Sorry, Shrivastav. Sorry if I'm saying that wrong. But he. He alleges, like this is completely off the wall. He alleges that Wang, quote, had accepted a faculty position with a university in Singapore, end quote. And not only that was because of that he would not be eligible to be hired again at iu. So, like what?

Kevin Greenlee (50:19)

That. That doesn't make sense because just because you take a job elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean you need to be fired or even leave your other job and certainly you should be allowed to be rehired.

Anya Cain (50:31)

Makes no sense. And this is what the statement they gave to the ids, Indiana University was recently made aware of a federal investigation of an Indiana University faculty member. At the direction of the FBI. Indiana University will not make any public statements regarding this investigation, end quote. So the email that IDS obtained does not refer to any sort of like, hey, we think you're embezzling, or, you know, like, any sort of, like, we think you're doing something illegal. It's just like, you took this other job. So there's obviously a lot that's not being said at this point. The FBI, again, is not. They're saying, we looked into this. They both, you know, these two houses were, like, looking at them, but they're not confirming anything. And meanwhile, where is the professor? So what's going on with that? Well, WTHR got comments from lawyers for. For the couple, and this is what they had to say. This is from WTHR, channel 13. Quote. While we are unable to provide substantive comment on the investigation at this time, neither Professor Wang nor Ms. Ma have been arrested and both are currently safe. Further, there are no pending criminal charges, as far as we are aware. Professor Wang and Ms. Ma are thankful for the outpouring of support they've received from colleagues at Indiana University and their peers from across the academic community. They look forward to clearing their names and resuming their successful careers at the conclusion of this investigation. End quote. So, yeah, what is going on? I mean, like, without knowing anything about any sort of underlying crimes that are alleged to happen here, it's really difficult to speculate. And it's, you know, for people who care about, you know, academic freedom and things like that, you know, seeing kind of a professor get raided and not really knowing why, it's. It's a bit concerning. Obviously, if someone's doing something illegal, though, you know, being a professor shouldn't shield you from that. So it. But, you know, who knows? I know. For I do know, though, that the, you know, the firing or the termination happened the same day as the raid. So, like, a lot seems to be happening at once. This is something to note, though, that the American association of University Professors put out a letter on March 31st condemning all of this. And this is what they had to say. Quote, the Executive Committee of the Bloomington Chapter of the American association of University Professors has learned that the luddy School of Informatics, Computing and Engineering Professor Xiaofeng Wang's appointment with tenure has been summarily terminated. Termination of a tenured faculty member is an action that requires the highest level of scrutiny and due process. The required steps for termination are specified in the university policy, ACA 52, Section D, appended below. ACA 52 has been adopted by both the UFC and the IU Board of Trustees. It is our understanding that Professor Wang was not provided with the due process specified in ACA 52. His appointment was terminated without the required notice and a hearing before the Faculty Board of Review. We are aware of news reports indicating that Professor Wang is under investigation by law enforcement. While the outcome of those investigations may ultimately bear on Professor Wang's continued appointment at iu, the mere fact of an investigation or of an unadjudicated allegation cannot justify failure to comply with the university policies on the part of the administration. It is fundamental that individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty. As we are sure you are aware, under current conditions, the production of due process is of the utmost importance to protecting academic freedom. Protection of academic freedom and support of shared governance are fundamental to the mission of the AAUP and of our chapter. Neither shared governance nor academic freedom can survive if critical policies developed through shared governance are summarily bypassed by the administration. Therefore, we ask that you revoke Professor Wang's immediate termination and provide the notice and hearing required by University Policy ACA 52. In order to protect academic freedom and the academic mission of Indiana University, we ask that you publicly report to the Bloomington Faculty Council at its upcoming meeting that you've taken these actions. Silence fuels suspicion and distrust and makes shared governments governance harder. End quote. So this is. What's so surprising about it, is that there's obviously a process for revoking tenure. Why was that? What. What happened with IU that made them like, no, he's fired. Don't worry about it. Like, why are they doing that? It's wild.

Kevin Greenlee (55:21)

It's wild. You have to assume there's a lot going on here that we don't know, if we knew about, it would answer a lot of these questions. But on the surface, with what we know, it's bizarre.

Anya Cain (55:32)

Well, and what the letter here is saying, hey, there might be a good reason to fire this guy, but you have to do it in the right way.

Kevin Greenlee (55:40)

The right way.

Anya Cain (55:41)

You can't just, you know, if it's. If there's a policy. If there's a policy for, here's how you strip someone of tenure, then you do that.

Kevin Greenlee (55:49)

You got to follow it.

Anya Cain (55:50)

You don't just randomly kind of come in and say, well, no, he's gone. The whole thing is bizarre. The professor is seemingly. No one knows where he is, but he's safe, according to his lawyers. Who knows how this will develop? People have suggested, like, espionage and such. I don't know. It's. It seems like very difficult to speculate on any of that at this point. But either way, I Hope we can all appreciate that, you know, due process is important here, you know, for. For everything, not just the law, but in this case, policies within a university because you don't want academic freedom to be stifled.

Kevin Greenlee (56:23)

That.

Anya Cain (56:24)

That doesn't benefit anyone. And, you know, just because someone is accused of someone doesn't make them guilty. If they are accused and they turn out to be guilty, there should be a proper way of removing them from the environment. And that was not followed here. But you and I actually did take the liberty of going out to explore the neighborhood where, in Carmel, where Wang's house was. And it was just, I mean, my recollection, just a very nondescript kind of very nice subdivision in Carmel. You know, I think we recorded some audio of us walking around, but I don't know how valuable that is because it's just a lot of shuffling. And I think a very nice couple said hello to us once. So shout out to them, thanks for making.

Kevin Greenlee (57:14)

God bless them.

Anya Cain (57:15)

Thanks for making us feel welcome in Carmel. And, and there was a guy with a very well behaved dog. So, I mean, it, it was just like. It's just kind of this, you know, when we looked at their house, there was the, I believe, like a. I don't know what the official term is, the. The Christian symbol of a fish on the front door and daffodils. It was very nice, but it just, you know, it didn't look occupied. But there was no sign of FBI activity anymore because it was a couple days later. But, you know, as. As with most houses, as with most neighborhoods, you know, you see it, it's just a house. It's no, no indication of anything suspicious going on. So I don't know. I'll be really curious to see how that ends up. What do you think?

Kevin Greenlee (58:01)

I have no idea.

Anya Cain (58:02)

You don't know what's going on?

Kevin Greenlee (58:03)

I'm completely baffled. Thrown for a loss, thrown for a loop.

Anya Cain (58:07)

What do you think about this happening at your alma mater?

Kevin Greenlee (58:11)

Yeah. The great university, Indiana University.

Anya Cain (58:14)

Yeah. What do you think about it happening there? Does it concern you that they kind of just fired him abruptly like this?

Kevin Greenlee (58:23)

I mean, I hate to be the tentative lawyer here, but I think you just have to. To wait. There's stuff going on here that we don't know about. And these professors are right to stand up and assert their rights. And if the rights of the professor were violated, I am confident that he will and should be made whole. And if there is a good reason for what has happened, if for some reason national security or what have You. I hope we hear that. But it's right now. To me, it seems more or less equally plausible that there's a really good reason that's being kept secret, or this is a huge violation of his rights. I don't know which.

Anya Cain (59:11)

I think either of the. It's gotta. It's. I mean, I would think it would be one or both. You know, like one or one or one or the other, you know, like this, like, whatever this is seems pretty extreme, but I think that, like, I think there is something to be said for if there's a process in place. Let's use that. Even if it's extreme.

Kevin Greenlee (59:27)

And I imagine if Anya found out, I was going to, in addition to my duties on the Murder Sheet, co host a podcast in Singapore. I don't think she would immediately fire me and call the FBI. Although she might.

Anya Cain (59:40)

That's what you think? No. I mean, certainly not, but. Yeah, it's very perplexing, but we'll follow it. Just weird things always happening in Indiana. I guess that's just the vibe here, but is that all we've got?

Kevin Greenlee (59:57)

Can I risk the ire.

Anya Cain (59:58)

Oh, gosh.

Kevin Greenlee (60:00)

Of my co host by briefly talking about a case you and I haven't previously discussed in the context of the program? And this is a case that has ties to New York and Indiana. And this is the case of the delightful co host of the Murder Sheet, Anya Cain. Because this weekend marks the anniversary of her birth.

Anya Cain (60:23)

Aww.

Kevin Greenlee (60:23)

So I want to wish a happy birthday to her. She has really enriched my life and made it so much better and more delightful in every way. And so I just want to thank her and to New York. I'm sorry that Indiana lured her away because she made Indiana better at the cost of making New York a bit worse.

Anya Cain (60:44)

You're going to make me cry. That's really sweet, baby. Thank you.

Kevin Greenlee (60:49)

So happy birthday.

Anya Cain (60:50)

Oh, thanks, babes. I love you. You're really sweet. Oh, man. Now I don't know what to say.

Kevin Greenlee (61:00)

I'm sorry I threw you for a loop. That way I'll move on because I don't want to.

Anya Cain (61:04)

You're very sweet. You don't want to get this. Too sappy. People are like, oh, gross. You're very sweet.

Kevin Greenlee (61:11)

Oh, gross.

Anya Cain (61:12)

Well, we get all mushy with each other, but you're really, really sweet in your wonderful.

Kevin Greenlee (61:16)

So we have a live appearance coming up on May 13, and it's in my hometown, of all places, Columbus, Indiana, which people always told me when I was there that they called it the Athens of the Prairies. I'm not sure.

Anya Cain (61:33)

You're walking down the street and some guy just throws his arms up and says, welcome to the Athens of the Prairies.

Kevin Greenlee (61:38)

I never once heard anyone call it that, but I was told that it is an interesting place. If I say it's known for having a lot of buildings, that sounds pretty dumb, but the buildings are designed by world renowned architects.

Anya Cain (61:53)

If you guys were the Athens of the Prairies, who was the Sparta of the Prairies or the Sparta of the Plains? Guys could have had a regular Hoosier. Peloponnesian War.

Kevin Greenlee (62:05)

But it's a great place. It's right off the interstate. Very easy. It's easier to go to Columbus than not to go to Columbus. World renowned architects, beautiful buildings. They have an ice cream parlor there that opened up in 1900 and it's still very vintage. And it's quite an experience to go to Zaharigos Tahariko's. And it has us and the fish.

Anya Cain (62:30)

Shop that you like.

Kevin Greenlee (62:31)

Yes. Ye Olde Fish House.

Anya Cain (62:35)

So, yeah, if you can come, you should come. We don't have any information to share about buying tickets yet, but we have like a save the date, I think.

Kevin Greenlee (62:43)

Yeah. May 13th.

Anya Cain (62:44)

May 13th. Tuesday, May 13th.

Kevin Greenlee (62:46)

About an hour south of Indianapolis, right off the interstate. My hometown. Love to see you there.

Anya Cain (62:52)

Yeah. Come and hang out with us. We'll be our awkward selves, but it'll.

Kevin Greenlee (62:57)

Be fun and get there a little bit early. Go to the Harriko's, get some ice cream and then go and have dinner. I think it's like a dinner thing, isn't it?

Anya Cain (63:05)

I think it is, yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be really fun. I'm really excited. We always love Columbus and Kevin's family is there and they're awesome.

Kevin Greenlee (63:12)

Am I allowed to say the name of the venue yet?

Anya Cain (63:15)

I don't know. Why not?

Kevin Greenlee (63:16)

The name of the venue is eerily appropriate considering something Anya's done.

Anya Cain (63:24)

One of my incidents.

Kevin Greenlee (63:25)

Anya often talks about True Crime Swine 69. And then the more family friendly True Crime 9. 89. No.

Anya Cain (63:32)

True Crime Swine 89. That's when he rebranded.

Kevin Greenlee (63:35)

Yes.

Anya Cain (63:35)

He's not real. Well, he's real in my heart in a way. True Crime Swine for people who are like, what are they talking about? Which I guess is probably a pretty popular reaction to the show in general. But True Crime Swine is my imagination's like, kind of catch all for like your typical, like, ridiculous bad YouTuber, you know. So in my mind, the True Crime Swine is like your Typical guy who's, like, ranting and just conspiracy theorizing. And so, you know, part of me wonders if somehow I manifested the Swine into life and if somehow this is a trap by his followers to get us. So if you never hear us from us again after the event, you'll know what's happened.

Kevin Greenlee (64:20)

It's in a place called the Swine and Dine.

Anya Cain (64:22)

Yes. This is gonna be our Red Wedding. No, I'm just kidding. Who could have bought it?

Kevin Greenlee (64:29)

Remember, we want people to come.

Anya Cain (64:30)

Oh, yeah. No, you should. Well, come and protect us, please. No, I'm just kidding. You should come. It's gonna be really fun. It's not gonna be the Red Wedding, probably. It's not gonna be a trap by the Swine's fanatic following to get us. Probably because he doesn't exist. He can't hurt you.

Kevin Greenlee (64:47)

We'll probably talk about some Indiana Columbus cases. Do some Q and A. Yeah.

Anya Cain (64:57)

Do a tap dance routine. What else are we gonna do?

Kevin Greenlee (64:59)

So Anya's going to tap dance. You've heard her promise.

Anya Cain (65:01)

No.

Kevin Greenlee (65:01)

You've heard her promise.

Anya Cain (65:02)

No, it was not a promise. It was a sarcastic suggestion. Very.

Kevin Greenlee (65:05)

It was our sarcastic jibe.

Anya Cain (65:07)

I'll tap dance to distract the swine and the followers. No, he's not real. It's just. I think I. I said it on. I think I said it in a conversation with our friends Brett and Alice from the prosecutors. And then it's funny because periodically I'll see comments or we'll get emails about people being like, I think they think he's like, Wait, did. Did someone like, is the true crime swine real? And did he do something bad? And I have to explain. No, it's just my sick mind churned that out.

Kevin Greenlee (65:35)

Yes.

Anya Cain (65:36)

So apologies. I don't know what's wrong with me.

Kevin Greenlee (65:43)

So, May 13, we could probably give you information about how to get a ticket next Friday, but if you're a member of our Facebook group, we may be able to post it there a couple of days early.

Anya Cain (65:57)

Post in our Facebook group? If you're a Patreon member, we'll post it there. But, yeah, just stay tuned. It'd be cool to see some of you guys. And we always. We really enjoyed doing the live show up in Kendallville, Indiana, a while ago. And so this is kind of an opportunity to do something else like that.

Kevin Greenlee (66:14)

Would you be willing to, like, sign boxes of cereal?

Anya Cain (66:17)

Sure, yeah, I'd do it. Do it in a heartbeat. Just come up to me on the street.

Kevin Greenlee (66:22)

I'll do it.

Anya Cain (66:23)

I Don't care if that's something people want our listeners like, yeah, I'll pass. But anyways, this is. Yeah, that'll be fun. And you know, I guess. Is that all we have to say.

Kevin Greenlee (66:41)

On that so far at this point? Yeah.

Anya Cain (66:43)

Stay tuned. Keep your eyes peeled. And we will. Oh, also buy our book. We're. We're still kind of coming up on that coming out over the summer. So pre order it. People have asked us, is there going to be an audiobook? Our understanding is yes, but we don't have any information and won't be sharing anything until we get information on that.

Kevin Greenlee (67:07)

Yes, we're not going to make enough information before we have that information because the reliability of said information would not be high.

Anya Cain (67:15)

Yes, exactly. But, but we, we have been told that there will likely be a audiobook. So everyone who's asking us there will be. Are we going to be the people? No, probably not.

Kevin Greenlee (67:28)

But almost certainly not that rarely. There'd be a greater chance of, like, Jimmy Durante.

Anya Cain (67:34)

He's dead, Kevin.

Kevin Greenlee (67:35)

That's what I'm saying.

Anya Cain (67:35)

Dead. And can I just say, speaking of him to the person who posted one of his old serial ads in our Facebook group, God bless you. That thing haunts my dreams. That was. It's a weird Jimmy. It's a tiny. Someone posted this video in our Facebook group. It is a tiny Jimmy Duranty puppet that's jumping around a family's breakfast and talking about cereal. And they're like, this is Anya. And I was like, thank you. This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. It's terrifying. It's both terrifying and adorable. And I loved it so much. So, yeah, that. That commercial lives, like rent free in my head now. So there we go.

Kevin Greenlee (68:12)

I understand we have shirts.

Anya Cain (68:15)

We also have shirts for purchase. Shirts can be purchased at the link in our show notes.

Kevin Greenlee (68:23)

Yeah, that's my understanding. That's a shirt.

Anya Cain (68:26)

People are. Many are saying it's the word on the street. It's a word on the street. So you can get your shirts and that's kind of it.

Kevin Greenlee (68:35)

We seem out of gas, right?

Anya Cain (68:36)

We're out of gas. The cane train is sputtered, sputtered to a stop on the rails and now needs some. Now needs to be refueled. So I guess we are. We're closing up now.

Kevin Greenlee (68:46)

And happy birthday to Anya.

Anya Cain (68:48)

Oh, thanks. Thank you so much. And thank you all so much for listening. We always really. It's fun to get to meet with some of you. Some of you have said hi to us on the streets. Recently, and it made us really happy. And it was nice to meet you. And we always just like to meet our listeners. So don't hesitate to reach out and say hi and just. We appreciate you. So thank you so much. Bye.

Kevin Greenlee (69:08)

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?

Anya Cain (69:27)

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do, like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

Kevin Greenlee (69:53)

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

Anya Cain (69:55)

I think I have, yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (69:57)

And deservedly so.

Anya Cain (69:58)

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very, like, you know, like, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes something's too scratchy, like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like, very delicate and soft. And make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're. You're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

Kevin Greenlee (70:34)

I do wash my clothes.

Anya Cain (70:35)

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

Kevin Greenlee (70:39)

You made me sound awful, so. No, I. I wash my clothes.

Anya Cain (70:42)

But you don't really.

Kevin Greenlee (70:43)

I launder them.

Anya Cain (70:44)

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

Kevin Greenlee (70:51)

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

Anya Cain (70:56)

There you go. So you can go to quince. Com msheet, and right now, they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com msheet that's Q U I N C E COM M S H E e T.