The Cheat Sheet: Sentences and Sledgehammers

Summary

Murder Sheet – The Cheat Sheet: Sentences and Sledgehammers

Episode Date: December 19, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (journalist) & Kevin Greenlee (attorney)
Major Themes: True crime updates and in-depth analysis of high-profile and under-discussed cases, societal and legal implications, holiday banter.

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Murder Sheet explores a selection of disturbing and layered criminal cases spanning Indiana, Minnesota, and Colorado. The hosts dissect the horrific abuse and death of a young child, a shocking workplace murder, a complicated plea deal with legal fallout, and issues of prosecutorial overreach in a notorious Indiana homicide case. Throughout, Áine and Kevin provide not only case details and legal context, but also dig into societal debates about gendered violence and criminal justice, with their trademark mix of incisive commentary and irreverent humor.

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Main Cases Discussed

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1. The Murder of Kinsley Welty (Indiana)

Segment Start: [06:24]

Key Points:

• Case Summary: The hosts detail the tragic neglect and murder of 5-year-old Kinsley Welty in Indianapolis. Kinsley, weighing only 21 lbs at death, suffered from extensive abuse and neglect at the hands of her mother, Tony McClure (charged with murder, confinement, battery), and the alleged failure of Indiana’s Department of Child Services.
• Civil Lawsuit: Kinsley’s family filed suit against the Indiana DCS, alleging mishandling and failure to intervene despite previous signs of abuse.
• Evidence: Probable cause affidavits reveal harrowing neglect—emaciation, being confined in a closet that was virtually a prison, and living among filth and evidence of physical assault.
  • "They move that [dresser] away and immediately smell feces, urine… almost a little prison where Kinsley was held… small handprints on the inside of the door." – Áine ([11:47])
• Mother’s Confession: McClure admitted to lying and to neglect, but continued to blame Kinsley for “behavioral issues,” showing chilling lack of responsibility.
  • "Tony stated Kinsley needed help, but she did not help… she had [messed] up really bad." – Áine reading affidavit ([15:30])
• Systemic Issues: The hosts question both the specific and systemic failings that allowed abuse to continue.
  • "The people who are truly… likely to be a bigger danger to the child are the people in their life, the people tasked with taking care of them." – Áine ([16:56])

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2. The Murder of Amber Jack (Minnesota)

Segment Start: [19:13]

Key Points:

• Case Summary: 20-year-old tradeswoman Amber Jack was brutally murdered at her workplace by a coworker, David Bruce DeLong, who bludgeoned her to death with a sledgehammer. The killing was captured on workplace surveillance.
• Motive & Mental Fitness: DeLong admitted he disliked Amber, had planned the murder, and intended to kill. His family had ended contact years earlier due to “safety concerns.” Defense requested a mental competency examination.
  • "He confessed to killing the victim… said he had been planning to kill the victim for some time." – Áine quoting affidavit ([23:00])
• Host Reactions & Gendered Violence:
  • Áine passionately discusses online discourse, criticizing trivial debates (like “manspreading”) versus the very real epidemic of male violence against women.
    • "I would just love it if the discourse in popular culture could be almost exclusively focused on male violence against women, because I think that's... costing innocent women their lives." – Áine ([32:10])
  • Kevin offers a measured counterpoint, noting the frequency of everyday inconveniences versus rare but horrific violence, but agrees on problem severity.
    • "Obviously true male violence against women is a horrible problem, causes much more damage and lasting impact than men sitting with their legs spread in the subway." – Kevin ([35:48])
• Societal Implications: The case triggers a broad discussion about workplace safety and accountability in male-dominated fields.

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3. Robert Hunt and Plea Deal Fallout (Colorado)

Segment Start: [38:25]

Key Points:

• Case Summary: Robert Hunt pled guilty to murder after being accused as an accomplice; his associate, Aaron Weston (who pulled the trigger), received a much lighter sentence. Hunt was sentenced to 40 years, Weston 10.
• Legal Twist: Hunt’s plea was vacated for ineffective counsel—he did not realize the full legal implications of Colorado’s complicity laws or his rights to appeal a plea withdrawal.
  • "I'm concerned that he was the victim of some very bad lawyering." – Kevin ([43:18])
• Victim Impact: The victim’s daughter, Constantzia Pinto, expressed remarkable grace, saying:
  • "I hope he gives his life to Christ... maybe he didn't have the opportunities I have, and that's why he turned out the way he did." ([45:22])
• Host Analysis: The hosts agree the system failed Hunt in sentencing disparity but emphasize the irreversible loss for Eddie Wilson, the innocent man killed.

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4. Sarah Jo Pender and the “Female Charles Manson” Label (Indiana)

Segment Start: [47:17]

Key Points:

• Case Summary: Pender was sentenced to 110 years after her boyfriend used a gun she purchased to murder two people; she aided after the fact but never pulled the trigger.
• Prosecutorial Overreach: The prosecutor compared her to Charles Manson, a “puppet master” orchestrating the crime. Evidence for her as mastermind was threadbare and some purported confessions were later proven dubious or forged.
  • "Even the prosecutor... has said... I made a mistake in this case. I think she should be released." – Kevin ([51:09])
• Sentence Modification: The prosecutor now supports her sentence reduction. The original case was tainted by sensationalism and possible legal errors.
  • "It's about what you can prove... not just about vibes." – Áine ([53:25])
• Critique of Legal Rhetoric: Hosts criticize prosecutors who employ exaggerated language (“female Charles Manson,” “demonic”), seeing it as media grandstanding rather than substantive legal argument.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

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On Child Abuse Systemic Failures

"A child doesn't just get to that position. This is, this is concerning." – Áine ([10:45])

On Gendered Violence and Media Discourse

"When women start taking sledgehammers into the office and bashing their male colleagues heads in en masse, maybe then we can have that conversation." – Anya ([32:50])

On Sentencing Disparities in Felony Murder

"It seems deeply unfair. I don't like that at all." – Anya, about the 40- vs. 10-year sentences in the Colorado case ([42:51])

On Prosecutorial Showmanship

"That’s the prosecutor equivalent of a defense attorney doing really over the top… Oh, this guy’s just a little gentle baby… I think that kind of overstatement is stupid." – Anya ([57:35])

On Christmas Banter and Laughs

"I'm going to haunt you like Jacob Marley… talking about all the times you embarrassed me on this program." – Anya ([63:09])

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Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:24 | Kinsley Welty case – Indiana child abuse | | 19:13 | Amber Jack murder – Minnesota workplace violence | | 25:21 | Explainer: Competency in criminal law (Kevin) | | 38:25 | Robert Hunt case – Colorado plea deal/ineffective counsel | | 47:17 | Sarah Jo Pender – Indiana: Prosecutorial overreach revisited |

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Additional Notes

• Fan Contributions: Several cases were suggested by listeners, emphasizing the community-driven approach of the podcast.
• Hosts’ Dynamics: Through playful (“Christmas bonnet”) and darkly comic banter, Áine and Kevin soften the episode’s grim subject matter, ending with humorous holiday chatter and a story about a bad college race photo.
• Societal Critique: The podcast deftly shifts between legal minutiae and societal issues, making space for passionate advocacy as well as legal technical explanations.

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For Listeners New and Returning

This episode provides a careful mix of deeply researched crime reporting, legal commentary, societal reflection, and the conversational warmth (and bickering) fans have come to expect from The Murder Sheet. The hosts foreground victims’ stories, analyze legal processes, and cut through media sensationalism with clarity and empathy.

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Holiday Message:

“We love you guys and we really appreciate you sticking around with us. It means a lot that you spend your time with us. So I guess, thank you.” – Anya ([59:58])

“Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night… and a happy New Year to everybody.” – Kevin ([60:18])

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

And today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about a really shocking Minnesota case. Two cases out of Indiana and one out of Colorado. Content warning. This episode includes discussion of murder and violence, including the murder and horrific neglect of a small child.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, I think we should, first of all, we should witness our witness. We should wish. We should witness Christmas, and we should wish our dear friends, the listeners, happy Christmas. Merry Christmas, if you will, because this is December 19th and this is our last cheat sheet before Christmas.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, we are recording this on December 10th, but this will air for most of you on December 19th, and therefore, yeah, we're not going to be able to talk to you before Christmas. And, and, and for everyone who celebrates Christmas, Merry Christmas. For everyone who celebrates other holidays, happy holidays. And I hope for everyone that you all have a very nice start to your new year, 2026. Although we will be checking in with you before then. So you're not going to escape 2025 without hearing from us on the Cheat Sheet again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we'd have a special Boxing Day edition, which, my understanding, will not involve fisticuffs, But, Anya, it's less than a week before Christmas. Do you have all your Christmas shopping done?

[Anya Cain]

I hope at this point, I hope that the Anya of December 19th does.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, are you going to be celebrating the holiday with a sparkling new Christmas bonnet?

[Anya Cain]

I didn't know where that was going. I don't know if a certain husband gets me one. Sure, I guess so. He dares to put his money where his mouth is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's what you're looking forward to. That's what. That's your Christmas wish.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. I'm sure all of the listeners are hoping that Santa will bring them a Christmas bonnet. That's a Murder Sheet tradition, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I also want to mention before we start the show that Anya obviously runs the cane train, but her map last week was a disaster. So I took my hand on the tiller and I have charted our journey this week. We're going to start in Indiana, which is where we're located, and then we're going to go to Minnesota, and then we're going to go to Colorado and then back to Indiana, our home. It's a very logical order.

[Anya Cain]

Well, okay. I'm sure people will be grateful for that. We're saving some fuel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are. We all have to be in this day and age. We all have to be conscious of the environment.

[Anya Cain]

And also it. Money is tight for a lot of people. I know. We're always trying to save things, so we don't want to be using a bunch of coal to get to places.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people who know us are not going to get as nice of Christmas gifts this year because of the money you wasted last week on coal for your really bizarre train journey. So why don't you hit the button?

[Anya Cain]

I'm so done with you. I'm so done. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Sentences and sledgehammers. So our first case will be a difficult one. This is a. This is a horrible, horrible case out of Indiana, out of Indianapolis specifically. And it involves the death of five year old Kinsley Welty. And my sources for this were mostly legal documents sent to us through a listener. Thank you so much. To that listener and wthr, the WTHR article provides the latest update in this case and then the documents reflect the context. So I'll just give you the update first. Um, so in, in the death of, of Kinsley Welty, which occurred In April of 2024, Smith was the boyfriend of Kinsley's mother and that was Tony McClure, a 30 year old woman. She's been charged with murder, criminal confinement resulting in serious bodily injury and battery on a person less than 14 years old. There's currently also a civil lawsuit filed by Kinsley's family. And this is against Indiana Department of. Correct. Indiana Department of Child Services and people working on this case there. What they say is that Kinsley's case was mishandled and that there were allegations of abuse of kinsley from Tony McClure in the sense like she was abusing her daughter shortly after the child's birth and that it never should have gotten this far. Kinsley died at age 5, but she weighed 21 lbs. To give you a sense of how emaciated and malnourished she was, I'm gonna read a little bit from the probable cause affidavit and just kind of get into that briefly and then we can move on. This is, this is hard to listen to when, when you think about parenting and meeting A child's needs, there's like, parenting's difficult. No one, no one, no one disputes that. But there's, there's situations where parents like strive really hard and they still can't give their kid everything they want or meet their child's needs. And then there's something where this amount of neglect is just pretty shocking. So here's the probable cause. Quote. On April 9, 2024, Detective Shane Nicholson of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department Child Abuse Unit was notified to contact IMPD. Officer Ryan wr. Officer Wright advised he had responded to a death investigation in Indianapolis. Upon arrival, Officer Wright observed medical personnel performing life saving measures on the victim, Kinsley Welty, five years old. Inside the house, Officer Wright advised that kinsley's mother, Tony McClure, stated she had just picked up Kinsley after she spent the last one and a half months with her father. Bw end quote. So from there Kinsley was transported to Riley Hospital for Children and pretty quickly there were concerns about this death investigation. This Kinsley did not appear to be a healthy child. When Detective Nicholson ultimately went to the Riley Hospital, he, he looked at the body. Kinsley passed away and, and she looked severely malnourished, eyes sunken in, extremely thin, and her body was covered in fecal matter in her hair, bottoms of her feet, things like that. So lice on her. So there was, there was something obviously deeply wrong here because a child doesn't just get to that position. This is, this is concerning. Also there were like sores and bite marks on her abdomen. So the folks at Riley Hospital were understandably concerned about neglect, malnourishment, possible abuse. You know, they said that according to her charts, she weighed more when she was two and a half years old than when she was five. So they do an investigation. They interview Tony McClure. She's got this whole story about how Kinsley was with her father that falls apart pretty quickly because they interview the father, they also interview other people who know this family and they all say the same thing, that's not true. And Tony McClure is also telling different people different things. She's telling some people about, you know, this little girl falling in the bathtub and there's just different, different things that are coming out. So like she's lying to investigators, she's lying to family members, and then it, then it starts coming out more. So, so Nicholson interviews her again and quote, Tony stated Kinsley was last medically evaluated in December of 2022. Tony stated DCS employee had just been at her house earlier that day. Because her newborn had tested positive for thc. Tony stated she picked up Kinsley after DCS visited the house, end quote. Later on, it turns out that she changed her story to saying that Kinsley was hidden in a closet and the DCS employee had not checked that room. So from there, I think, you know, the investigation starts to kind of really hone in on Tony McClure as they hear more and more about these kind of things, and. And hearing about some of this, like, these discrepancies, I guess. So they go back to the house, they execute a search warrant, and they find one bedroom that belongs to McClure's two sons. They find the closet door blocked with a large dresser. They move that away and immediately smell feces, urine. And this appears to be almost a little prison where Kinsley was held, where they find small clothing items belonging to a girl, fecal matter all over the walls and carpet, very soiled, small handprints on the inside of the door. I mean, how heartbreaking is that? Just heartbreaking and disgusting and just deeply, deeply sad. So at some point, McClure is. Is confronted about some of these things, and she starts saying, you know, you know, Kinsley was living in the home with, you know, Ryan Smith, the boyfriend, and Tony McClure. So this is what Tony McClure starts saying to detectives. Quote, Tony expressed that she was always with Kinsley. Tony stated nobody would help her when she asked for help with Kinsley. Tony stated Ryan never paid attention to Kinsley, even though he lived at the house and was there every day and night. Tony stated Ryan never put Kinsley in the closet or interacted with her while she was there. Tony stated Ryan had never physically assaulted Kinsley. Tony stated that Tammy brought it up to her that Kinsley did not look well and had lost weight, end quote. So people are noting that she's not looking good. She's defending the boyfriend. Yeah. So then I thought there was something really bizarre here where it got into almost Tony's expressed thoughts about her daughter. She said, quote, Tony explained Kinsley had a lot of behavioral issues. Tony discussed the various issues with Kinsley's behavior. Tony stated Kinsley hated her. Tony stated that she did not get Kinsley help because she was scared to get into trouble. Tony explained that she did not want her other children to be taken away because of Kinsley. Tony stated Kinsley had resentment towards her because she'd been taken away by DCS earlier in life. Tony said she and Kinsley did not share connection or bond. Tony was apologetic for lying to the Detectives. Tony stated she was going to jail. Tony stated Kinsley needed help, but she did not help. Tony stated that she had up really bad. Tony explained that it was true that Kinsley had told her that her head and legs hurt right before she collapsed in the kitchen and died. Tony stated she was not going to lie. Kinsley told her she wanted to die just prior to death. Tony believed Kinsley died because of malnourishment. End quote. So she's admitting to the abuse and neglect to a certain extent, but also continuing to almost blame a 5 year old child for what happened, saying there were behavioral issues and that Kinsley hated her and all this stuff. And it's like Kinsey was a little girl who needed to trust the adults in her life to meet her basic, basic, basic needs, basic physical needs, and she could not do that. So if, if Kinsley did have resentment of her parents at such a young age, of her mother at such a young age, then I think that was fully warranted based on what happened. So this case is still ongoing and there's a lot of information out there about it. It's, it's, it's a pretty followed case in Indiana because of just the nature of how horrific this is. But unfortunately this stuff is endemic. And cases where a child is going to be imprisoned, tortured, and led to have a horrifying death, we often associate that with stranger kidnappings. But the people who are truly the, you know, more likely to be a bigger danger to the child or the people in their life, the people who are tasked with taking care of them. I don't know all the facts of this to weigh in on the civil lawsuit, but certainly if things were this bad, it does make me question what happened in the process, to the point where Kinsley was not removed from this household sooner, before it was too late. I don't know, but it's, it's horrible. That little girl went through hell and I can't imagine doing this to any child, let alone your own child.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's terrible.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So now we're going to Minnesota, I believe, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And this was also a suggestion you got from a listener.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thank you so much to this listener. Thanks so much to the other listener. Thanks to the listeners who let us know what they're interested in hearing about. If you had the power to stop a crime before it happened, wouldn't you do it? What if that crime was done against yourself or your own family? Well, with Simplisafe's home security system, you can stop break ins and burglaries before they even happen.

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[Anya Cain]

So my sources for this one are also a lot of court documents. I also found an article from the local paper, the Dassel and Kakado Enterprise Dispatch, really helpful. And there was also A video from Fox 9 Minneapolis St. Paul that was helpful. So this is the murder of Amber Jack. She was killed on November 11, 2025 at her workplace. And she was a young tradeswoman at Advanced Process technologies in Kakado, Minnesota. She was, you know, I mean she was only 20 but she was ambitious. She, her, you know, she wanted to succeed in this field.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Her.

[Anya Cain]

Her family talked about her being incredibly hardworking. She took a lot of pride in what she was doing and she was witty, she was funny, she was positive and she had a beautiful smile. And it seems like she was really beloved by people who knew her. So what this happened on November 11, 2025. She goes to work as normal and a 40 year old man, a co worker, David Bruce Delong, attacked her with a sledgehammer. And I'm going to kind of go over the probable cause affidavit of what the detectives put together in this case. The complainant is Kevin Olson who is A Deputy Sheriff of Wright county quote, the complainant attests that based on those reports, the following facts establish Probable cause. On November 11, 2025 at 6:00am Wright County Sheriff's Office Deputy Thompson responded to a 911 call for an injured adult female at Advanced Process Technologies located in Kakakado, Wright County, Minnesota. Investigation revealed the adult female was an employee of Advanced Process Technologies. The adult female was fully identified by law enforcement and will be refer as victim herein. The reporting party said the victim had major head trauma with significant blood loss. Investigation revealed the victim sustained a blow to the head. A bloody sledgehammer was observed on the floor proximate to the victim. Deputies and emergency medical services responded and rendered medical care to the victim. Despite medical care received by the victim, the victim died because of blunt force trauma to her head and corresponding blood loss. Deputy Thompson identified a suspect in the attack on the victim as David Bruce DeLong, defendant herein. The defendant is an employee of Advanced Process Technologies. The defendant made an admission to an identified male witness Witness one herein in which the defendant said something to the effect of I hit her with your hammer. She is by your toolbox. She is gone. Responding detectives to the Wright County Sheriff's Office reviewed surveillance video from Advanced Process Technologies. The video surveillance shows the detect the defendant leaving his workstation and walking to the victim's workstation. The defendant is wearing gloves when this occurs. The defendant is observed grabbing a sledgehammer from the victim's workstation. The video shows the defendant swinging the sledgehammer at the victim who is out of the view of the camera. The defendant's first swing of the sledgehammer is in a horizontal movement consistent with the victim standing. The video surveillance captures the defendant forcefully swinging the sledgehammer four additional times in a downward fashion consistent with the victim being on the ground. The victim was found on the cement floor of the building near her workstation with very significant head trauma and substantial blood loss. The victim was found at a location where the video surveillance captures the defendant forcefully swinging at the sledgehammer multiple times. It appears from the investigation that the defendant struck the victim with the sledgehammer when she was standing and struck the victim multiple times with the sledgehammer after the victim fell to the ground. The defendant bludgeoned the victim to death with multiple blows to the victim's head with the sledgehammer. The defendant provided a statement to law enforcement after being advised of his rights in which he confessed to killing the victim. The defendant said he intended to kill the victim. The defendant admitted to not liking the victim. The defendant said he had been planning to kill the victim for some time, end quote. That's the probable cause. So just totally horrifying. This young woman goes to work and a guy decides that he does not like her, so he is going to murder her with a sledgehammer. So where are things from here? Well, Willis, Carrie Willis, who's the judge on this, she. She, I guess granted some kind of bond, but it's like $2 million. So I don't think he's going to be able to raise that. This guy needs a public defender. And that public defender is Gregory B. Davis, and with some with assistance from Tory James Langimo, and the attorney for the state is Brian Lutz. So currently there was kind of some consternation I saw online because people were upset that this guy at first was only charged with second degree murder. But the thing is, my understanding is that in, in Minnesota, they need to essentially go to a grand jury to get first degree. So they did, and they also got first degree murder. So he's been charged with both. He's. He's currently still incarcerated. As you can imagine. He didn't, you know, raise the money necessary for, for bail. And Davis, the defense attorney, recent at a filing on November 24, 2025, requested that a rule, a Rule 2001 examination be done for Delong. And that was granted by the court, and that is essentially to determine his competency to proceed with the, with the case. Can we give a quick reminder of what that means versus like, does that mean he was possibly insane at the time he did this, or does this refer to something else?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, under our system of law, we want the person charged with a crime to be able to assist their attorney so they have the opportunity to present the strongest defense possible. We don't expect an attorney to be able to go in and defend a client and if he is unable to consult with that client. And so if you're not competent to stand trial, that means you're not competent to assist in your defense.

[Anya Cain]

Right. Excellent point. So that's, that's kind of where it's. It's. I don't think anything's really been determined. I went over this page on the Minnesota kind of court system, and it sort of doesn't seem like he's entered a plea. And it doesn't seem like. And again, this is. This episode's coming out December 19, it's December 10. It's possible there will be developments between now and then, but in terms of who this guy delong is what is his, what is his deal? What, what, what could possibly prompt a man to do this to a co worker? His family apparently released a statement to the Enterprise Dispatch that they reported on and that's quote, our family had cut contact with him years ago due to concerns for safety, concerns that tragically proved justified. We are heartbroken for Amber's family and focus on supporting them through their grief. We ask for privacy as we honor, as we honor Amber and navigate this pain. No further comment at this time. End quote. So his family is basically saying, you know, they didn't feel comfortable with him. This was a guy who was a ticking time bomb. And if you look at his criminal record, not a lot of it necessarily indicates a penchant for violence, but certainly poor decision making. A lot of traffic issues which again that doesn't really mean anything. A lot of people can rack up a lot of traffic issues but there are some kind of interesting things within here including dwi. So he was driving while intoxicated a lot of his things even with the traffic, like he wouldn't show up to hearings and stuff. So even though like maybe traffic isn't like there seemed, this seemed to be a guy who didn't really have his life together and breaking the rules. He theft. There was a theft of $587.96 from a business that appears to be pure pleasure in St. Cloud, Minnesota which is an adult novelty store. And he stole from that place. There was a lot of like getting in trouble for driving infractions and then driving without insurance or driving without a license. This is the most significant incident that I came across though. So this is something that happened April 9, 2016 in New London. And this is, this is what, this is what this delong guy was said to have done. Quote, the deputy deputies were dispatched to apartment building in the city of New London in regards to a domestic called in by a neighbor down by a downstairs neighborhood. Deputies were told that there was a male and female yelling and screaming. Upon arrival, Deputy met with caller who stated he did not know how many people were inside the apartment but he heard yelling, screaming and slamming. He then heard crying. Deputy knocked on door and was met by arrestee David. David was intoxicated. David denied any making love loud noises. David offered to show deputy and to show him there was no one else inside. When deputy asked David for his name, he would only give him David. He then became belligerent and refused to allow deputy inside to check on the safety of others. David would not provide his full Name and gave the last name of you. David started raising his voice and took an aggressive fighting posture and stance. David clenched his right fist and started to cock it as if he was going to punch the deputy or otherwise hit the deputy. Deputy grabbed a hold of David's arm and tried to handcuff him. David pulled away. It would not cooperate. A struggle ensued where the deputy felt. Felt if he failed to control David, he would be assaulted. The deputy was able to gain distance from David and threatened the use of a taser, at which point David finally laid on the ground and put his hands behind his back. David was then handcuffed. David yelled and used various vulgarities and profanities at the deputy. The caller did later provide a statement regarding what he heard. It was also determined that there was nobody else in the apartment on the way to the jail. David told the deputy he was lucky he didn't have a firearm right now, end quote. So there's no one else in the apartment. He's banging, screaming, slamming around. It's. It's concerning. Yeah, I don't know if there's a mental health history here. There may be. It sounds like there's possible competency issues, but it would have to be a situation where they could. The defense could argue that he was in some sort of full blown psychosis and did not realize that what he was doing was wrong when he hit this young woman with a sledgehammer. The thing that I will be extremely curious about is there's been rumors online that Amber reported this guy to HR or there was some issue at the workplace. I don't know if that's true or not. I've not seen that verified anywhere. If that is true, then that's pretty appalling that he was allowed to continue there because obviously whatever her concerns were, were completely justified, if not more so. And I guess, I don't know, these cases just make me so sad. This young woman, again, she's doing her job, loses her life. I really feel like we, as a society, I don't know, I just think back to. I was telling you about this when I was reading about this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, you were.

[Anya Cain]

You know, like, I. I don't want to sound. I don't want to sound like. I don't know, I don't want to be misunderstood here. But like, I feel like a couple. A number of years ago there was like a whole thing where there was like this online discourse and listen, online discourses don't mean anything. And social media companies push infuriating stuff at you so it annoys you, so you continue to engage with them. It's a money thing. They're, like, literally making money off of dividing Americans and making you hate people and making you hate people who disagree with you. But at the same time, I remember this was a big thing. Does anyone remember this? Where it was like, women are speaking up about the big issue of men, like, man sitting on subways, like, and taking up too much space. Do we remember? Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember this.

[Anya Cain]

You remember that. And it's like, okay, like, who cares? Like, that doesn't matter. Men have different anatomies, so they sit differently. Like, it's not. It's not a really big deal. You know, like, that's not a. That's not a horrible thing. Can we. Can we. Can we kind of almost keep it completely focused on the fact that men just lash out and kill women? Like, I. I mean, like, there was this, like, New York Times thing the other day that I saw that was like, are women ruining the workplace? And it's like, I don't know. When women start taking sledgehammers into the office and bashing their male colleagues heads in en masse, maybe then we can have that conversation. Otherwise, I sort of think it's men ruining the workplace for everybody else, given the amount of violence that men do to each other and to women. But I mentioned the man's man spread. Was that it? The man spreading? I believe so, because, like, there's just all these, like, stupid, like, little culture ward things like that that happen. And I. I do some. A lot of people are talking about male violence against women. I'm not saying that no one's having that conversation, but I. I would just love it if the discourse in popular culture could be almost exclusively focused on male violence against women. Because I think that's, like, the most significant problem, and it's the one that's actually costing innocent women their lives, and no one should have to deal with it. And if a person is, you know, whether that's coming from a place of anger and not being able to cope with life, whether it's coming from a place of. This person is actually just truly dealing with some kind of mental illness, but they seem to only, you know, interestingly target women, like, instead of a man who's their own size. If, if it's. If there's some reason for it, if there's no reason for it, I just feel like women shouldn't be losing their lives in this way. It's. It's. It's appalling. It really bothers me and I think that's what we need to be talking about. Not some like, you know, nonsense about oh, should you hold the door? Oh, a woman yelled at me if I held the door for her. Da da da da d. It's like, let's just talk about the murders. Like that's I think the most radicalizing thing when you just realize, you know, it's, it's not a two way street between men and women. You know, men are killing women in mass and killing each other even more significantly, but women are not killing men to that same extent. And it's, it's appalling and it needs to be like the only thing that we talk about, the first thing on the list is the violence. The first thing on the list is the murder. And, and then maybe we can get to other things. But I just, I don't know, it makes me really angry. No, no woman should have to deal with this. You know, frankly, no worker should have to deal with this man or woman. If you're going into your job, you should be safe there, you know, and, and that, that can mean rooting out people who are ticking time bombs, you know, but even when you do that, I imagine there's a risk because they might come back with a gun and shoot everybody. So I mean it's, it's, it's not an easy thing to deal with workplace violence. But in this case it's hard not to read into it where you have a young woman who is entered a very male dominated space and then this guy kills her because he says he has a problem with her. Maybe it wasn't sexism, but it's it, the appearance is, is very salient to me. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well said.

[Anya Cain]

As the murder sheet's resident man. Resident. The man on the sheet. That sounded weird. Never mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it did. What's your hog with it?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know. It's so much. I'm so mad right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I, I, I, I'm just going to echo what you said and move on.

[Anya Cain]

Tell me. No, but like, tell me if I'm being like ridiculous. Like I, like, like do you think, do you think that sometimes like this, like to me, I guess what I'm trying to say is like the violence and murder towards women should be like the, the number one top of the thing that we talk about when we talk about things like feminism, when we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Talk about things like obviously true male violence against women is a horrible problem, causes much more damage and lasting impact than Men sitting with their legs spread in the subway. But at the same time, I do think it's worth noting that the average woman is probably more likely in her life to deal with a man sitting like that on a subway than to be the victim of something like this. And so that's why there may be more discourse about it.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's also just like. I think, like, social media is just engine. It generated things so that whatever is the stupidest and most infuriating thing that rises to the top so you could have people trying to have conversations about serious issues, and then one person will come in with just this clown show nonsense, and then everyone's like, wow, that sucks. You know, and, like, that's what gets a lot of attention. You know, I think that's a big. I mean, I think it's the. The information that we get is. Is. Is. Is warped, and it's meant to keep us engaged in the platform we're on versus inform or enlighten or actually bridge distances. I don't like when people just talk about, like, oh, the men are all evil, and, you know, put them all, you know, like, in the sea. Sometimes I say things like that sort of facetiously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You do?

[Anya Cain]

I do. But it's also like, you know, we're in true crime. So, like, I think I'm entitled to that, but I don't. I. I really think that some of this stuff requires cooperation between men, you know, men who actually don't hate women and women. You know, I think that's. That's something that those kind of bonds and understanding should be strengthened. And painting everyone with a broad brush, I just don't think is ever helpful. But at the same time, I mean, the numbers do not lie. This is a serious, serious problem, and it's kind of worldwide. And it's just like, I. I think it needs to be discussed in a very blunt way of, like, men are killing women, and how do we make them not do that? What. Ha. What has to happen for that to, you know, is like. And. And is that, you know, that can be kind of, I think, divisive, because I think some of the people who might be, like, engaged on that might not like the idea of locking people up. But at the same time, if you can do that before somebody kills somebody, then you might be saving lives. I don't know. Shall we move on to your Colorado case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

My Colorado case, where this is from kktv.com and a decision from the Colorado Court of Appeals. So this is a case of a murder that happened back in 2010. And the person at the center of this story is a man named Robert Hunt. And I think it's worth noting right here at the top that Mr. Hunt did plead guilty to the murder of a man named Eddie Wilson. And another man involved in that crime, Aaron Weston, was also arrested, and he also took a deal. So with all that said, I want to talk about what the facts of the case were as presented in the plea deal given to Mr. Hunt. So Mr. Hunt, according to Mr. Hunt, he was the victim of a home invasion, which obviously, a very traumatic, terribly frightening thing.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

After this home invasion, he's talking with his buddy Aaron Webston, and they say they decide, oh, here's how we deal with this home invasion. Let's just kill the guys who did it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Mr. Weston has to be involved in that because he's the guy with the gun. And for some reason, they get information or they decide that the perpetrators of this crime must be at a particular apartment complex. They go to this apartment complex, and they see a guy standing outside minding his own business. This is eddie Wilson. And Mr. Weston says, oh, there's one of the guys. Let's kill him. And Hunt, according to him, says, no, that guy is not the guilty guy. That guy had nothing to do with it. But then Weston goes ahead and shoots him, and he dies. So according to Mr. Hunt, he is then told that under Colorado's complicity theory, he could eventually, in theory, receive a life sentence. And so he takes this deal, and he ends up getting sentenced to 40 years in prison. His associate, Mr. Weston, takes a different deal. He just gets 10 years. Mr. Hunt claims that it wasn't explained to him that under this complicity theory, he only could have been found guilty of the more serious crime if he had known that his colleague was going to commit this particular crime. In other words, he's saying, well, I knew he was going to kill the guys that robbed my house, didn't know he was going to kill an innocent man. So therefore, I couldn't have been found guilty in my mind, so I'd like to withdraw the plea. He wasn't allowed to withdraw the plea, and they went ahead and sentenced him. But then he also says, I didn't know. My attorney did not tell me that if you try to withdraw your plea in Colorado and you're not allowed to, that you can appeal that. I didn't know that was an option. And so, as a result of all of that, courts eventually have found that he was the victim of Ineffective counsel, and his conviction was vacated. So I guess my first question is, what's your impression?

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Like, on the one hand, legally, it doesn't matter if you were targeting bad guys who invaded your home versus an innocent guy, you shouldn't be doing murder. Like, anyways, like, that's still murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But isn't it striking that the guy that pulls the trigger gets tenure?

[Anya Cain]

That's what bothers me here. I still think, especially since when we're talking about Eddie Wilson is the guy who got murdered. And it does sound like Hunt was the guy being like, no, don't kill that guy. And then this guy went and did it anyway. He get the trigger man who went off the handle and killed an innocent guy gets 10 years, and the guy who was trying to prevent it on some level gets 40 years. That seems deeply unfair. I don't like that at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm concerned that he was the victim of some very bad lawyering.

[Anya Cain]

I think it sounds like he was. I mean, my, My. Listen, maybe this is all just being framed one way from the media and that it's all more complicated. That's very. I. That's always a possibility, and we should always keep that in mind. And without doing a. I've been so burned in so many cases that without doing, like, an insane deep dive myself, I'm not really gonna conclude either way. But from what is being portrayed here and what is being listed here is, like, what he thought and what things should happen. It sounds like. It sounds like he got some incredibly ineffective counsel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So my. My instinct is that the courts were correct to deal with this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I'm inclined to agree. So recently, another hearing was held. The state is as you'd expect. They're appealing it. And it was decided that while the state is appealing it, which may last a year or even longer, he's going to remain incarcerated. Because the judge found that, well, even though there may be some problems in the prosecution's case, when you look at the facts, you could imagine a jury making the decision that he was guilty of the more serious crime, and so they're going to hold him in. In custody. The victim's family obviously expressed relief that he's being held in custody. I was really struck by some comments from Constant Constanzia Pinto. I'm sure I mispronounced that, and I apologize. This is Eddie Wilson's daughter. She said that if he is eventually released, that she hopes that he will be better than he was before. She says, quote, I hope he gives his life to Christ. There's a lot of evil in the world. It saddens me as well, because maybe he didn't have the opportunities I have, and that's why he turned out the way he did.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. That's incredibly graceful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a very gracious comment from the victim's daughter.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I wanted to highlight that she didn't really get a chance to get to know her father because of this terrible crime.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Eddie Wilson didn't do anything wrong. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think the. At the end of the day, he's the true victim here, and it's important to remember that. And even though I think Hunt may have gotten a bad deal here, and I think. I feel like the op. Like, I feel like he should have gotten 10 years and the other guy got 40 years, it's still. He made an incredibly bad series of decisions that day that led to a situation where an innocent man was killed. So we can't. We can't overlook that. But it. It still seems really weird that the other guy kind of walked because he seemed like maybe he was the worst one in that situation. This is why vigilante justices, we just don't do it. No one do it. It doesn't matter. Everyone thinks they're justified. No one is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're the victim of a home invasion, don't go and kill the people who did it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, go. Go to law enforcement. If you have some information that can lead the police to the perpetrators, that's the way to handle it. Don't go over to some apartment complex with a gun.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. I mean, just in. In. You know, like, this is. I don't know. The ends don't justify the means. You know, you might say, well, these are really bad guys, and they hurt me, so I'm gonna hurt them. But that's just not that. We don't live in that society. That's not. It's not the Wild West. You can't just do whatever you want. You're going to get caught, and it's going to ruin your life. And why would you want to let people ruin your. Like, it's just going to backfire in most cases. But, yeah, it's very unfortunate all around.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, let us return back to our home state of Indiana. My sources for this are a couple stories from WRTV News. And Anya, I think this. This story, the beginnings of this story predate your time in Indiana by a considerable amount. So you probably don't remember this case, do you? The Sarah Jo Pinder case, you know.

[Anya Cain]

I've heard of it. I think I maybe Googled it briefly. I don't remember much about it, except for the whole female Charles Manson thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. The prosecutor at the time said that she was a female Charles Manson. Manson. I'm going to just go over this very, very briefly. She bought a gun. That gun was used by her boyfriend, whom she was living with, to kill two people. Subsequently, she did not report the crime, and I believe she may have helped in hiding the bodies and disposing of the bodies. There was never any evidence that she physically pulled the trigger. But the prosecutor who worked on the case, who was a man named Larry Sells, famously compared her to Charles Manson. I mean, that literally. He said that she was, quote, a female Charles Manson. She was the puppet master. She was the one pulling the strings to make the murder happen. And that's something that there's always been a lack of evidence to really clearly demonstrate that some of the evidence that was cited at the time, there's problems with. And that's not just me saying that. Even the prosecutor, Mr. Sells, has said that one thing, for instance, is Ms. Pender's boyfriend who actually pulled the trigger. It was a man named Hull, Richard Hull. He was found in prison, and he had, like, 70 letters from Ms. Pender. He turns them over, and then later he says, oh, guess what? Here's another letter. And in this letter, which somehow the police had missed before she confesses to the crime, I'm not sure how credible that is, that she would put that in writing. I'm not sure how credible it is that wouldn't have been turned over with the earlier letters. Needless to say, there's another problem with it. Someone has said, oh, yeah, by the way, I forged that letter. So that becomes problematic. There was another person who spoke with Ms. Pender behind bars, said that she confessed to him. But there are other letters and stuff from him at the time where he was indicating a willingness to lie about others in order to try to get his own sentences reduced. And Ms. Pender's attorneys didn't know that at the time. The prosecutors didn't know that at the time. And that certainly tends to reflect badly on his credibility. And the prosecutor in the case, Mr. Sells, has been very upfront with all of this, and for a few years now, he's been saying, I made a mistake in this case. I think she should be released. I think there's reasonable doubt that she was actually involved in the murders themselves. So where things stand now, earlier this Month, there was a sentence modification hearing. I should say that she was sentenced to 110 years.

[Anya Cain]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In which Ms. Pender indicates that she would like to be released, she'd like to see her sentence reduced. And one of the people speaking in support of that sentence reduction was none other than the prosecutor who put her behind bars, Mr. Sells. And is pretty unusual in these sentence modification hearings for the request for a reduced sentence to be supported by the prosecutor who worked on the case. I, I guess my question is like it was before. Anya. What, what's your take?

[Anya Cain]

Well, without knowing the case in depth, it's hard to say. I do want to say the murder victims were Andrew Cataldi and Trisha Nordman.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's important to say the names and, you know, note that these were, this was a 24 year old and a 25 year old. They had actually been in trouble for like, methamphetamine stuff in Nevada. So they were actually fugitives from justice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But obviously did not deserve to be murdered.

[Anya Cain]

Not at all. No, no, no one deserves to be murdered. So she escaped. Also, this Pender person escaped from, from prison at one point and then was, was ultimately recaptured. And, and I think in with her escape, she was able to, I think, you know, there was some level of like, manipulation with a prison guard, Scott Spiller. So I don't know, I mean, I feel like they had her dead to rights in terms of like, you know, accomplice and hiding a body and trying to help obstruct justice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right, Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

In a case where you have a lot of Mansony evidence and you're like, I have it, I have it on lock that she planned this whole thing. You don't want a situation where it becomes impossible for anybody who hires a hitman to see justice because, you know, you don't, you can be very involved in making something happen without being literally the person to go out and do it. And we've all seen cases like that, so I guess I, I, I don't, I think those things do happen and they, we should be open to them in this case, if there really is such a dearth of evidence around her planning it, then that's not what she should have been charged with. And then that's too much and she was overcharged.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And then a hundred or so years is way too much. That mean because, like, again, it's not about, it's about what you can prove. It's not just about vibes or she seems really manipulative and her boyfriend seemed to have been doing anything she said. Like, again, like you. Even if you might be missing out on someone who is the, the ringleader, unfortunately you have to do that because it's about what you, what you can prove and not just what you could sell to a jury.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the fact that the prosecutor who worked on the case supports her being released, that's really telling to me.

[Anya Cain]

I guess I'm like, would be curious. Oh, okay. So apparently he read a book. Who read a book, Sells read a book.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Prosecutor.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. That led him to be more like, oh, maybe I'd went too hard on her. That's not really ideal. You know, you kind of want to be like in that position, you know, before someone gets incarcerated. Right? Yeah, I don't know. I guess, like. Yeah, I mean, if it, if I would be curious of. Does, does his dude, the people who worked on that with him in the prosecutor's office agree with him? Is there another side to this? Do the investigators agree with him? And you know, is, is it true that there was so little evidence for the Manson aspect of this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Those would be questions I have, but as you described. Yeah, it sounds like there wasn't. But you know, maybe the stuff that we're not aware of, I guess I don't get the impulse to try to make it until I guess, like, I don't know, female Charles Manson sounds very attention grabbing. So maybe you, you know, there's like an element of that there. Or maybe that's just how they sincerely felt at the time. But I guess I'm curious about the process. Like, how did reading a book about this case change this guy's mind when he's the one who worked on it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or you would think he would have more information. What book was it that he read?

[Anya Cain]

He read Girl Wanted the Chase for Sarah Pender. But I mean, apparently it's kind of a controversial book. There's a. There's a page that I can't get to because it seems to be dead, but it. Debunking Girl wanted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

So this is the book that, that got this guy to change his mind. Kind of. Kind of odd.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I, I would.

[Anya Cain]

That raises some questions for me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would, I would assume it was more than just one book because he is the prosecutor who worked on the case. He knows a lot about the case.

[Anya Cain]

You would think, apparently. I mean, I guess, yes, you would think. But then why is he like having revelations from a random book?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sometimes in life, if you're kind of in a feedback loop with just other people and you, you Just get information and you interpret it in one certain way and then you suddenly get information from another source or you hear how someone outside of your feedback loop interprets things. It can be like a light goes off in your head that says, oh, maybe I've been looking at this the wrong way because I had certain preconceptions.

[Anya Cain]

Looking at some of the interviews Sells did about, you know, the Charles Manson thing was obviously a big deal. But he's also talking about how her almost in a demonic way. I think for me, I find it when prosecutors do stuff like that, it's really not super compelling and it seems to be more of like red meat for people rather than actual facts. And I don't like it personally. Like, like, save that for the sentencing hearing, you know, like, like, like you can like saying, oh, this person's demonic. And just the worst of the all time. It just, all of that seems to be more about getting media attention, frankly, half the time than actually.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it worked. I remember I was, I was living in Indiana in 2002 and this case got an extraordinary amount of attention.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's the, that's the prosecutor equivalent of like a defense attorney doing really over the top. Oh, this guy's just a little gentle baby. And he's such a nice little guy. You never do this. That's the prosecutor equivalent of that. Like this person's literally the devil. Like, you know, I don't like that. I think that that kind of overstatement is stupid. And so, I mean, it's not. I guess on some level, maybe it shouldn't surprise us that a prosecutor who is leaning on that so heavily leaning on that over the top rhetoric would then turn around and be like, oh, actually maybe not. You know, like it's not logical. And again, like, you might. Okay, there's definitely some people who are like, do, do at least deserve the moniker demonic because whatever they do is so horrifying that like, you can't even think about it in terms of a normal murder. But with this, I mean, she didn't pull the trigger, she didn't torture these people. At most she planned it, which is a horrible thing to do if she did. But like, I failed to see how she even lived up to the Charles Manson kind of comparison here. Like, all murder is terrible, but like, not everything where you're not present is necessarily like a. She didn't start a cult and then start killing people. Like, like, I get it just sounds really over the top.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree. But it's, it's a memorable Phrase.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, people need to stop being swayed by rhetorical nonsense on both sides, you know, whether that's defense or prosecutors. But yeah, when, when you have this kind of thing where it's like you're trying someone in the press, more of, you know, I'm not even saying he did that pre trial, but just like the, it's not, it's not ideal. It's not good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is our last episode before Christmas, as we mentioned. Anya, as you finish trimming the tree and settled down in front of a crackling fire, what are you doing with your cup of non alcoholic eggnog? As you sing your Christmas carols, as you eat your candy cane, your peanut brittle, your pumpkin pies. Do you have any messages for our listeners?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, well, we love you guys and we really appreciate you sticking around with us. It means a lot that you spend your time with us. So I guess, thank you. We're very grateful for all of you and enjoy getting to chat with some of you on Patreon, on the Facebook group, on email. So just thank you. I guess that's my big message. Do you have anything?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Merry Christmas to all and all a good night.

[Anya Cain]

What about people who don't celebrate Christmas?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Happy holidays.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. So in terms of. And a happy New Year to everybody. Although I guess we'll be checking in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll be here on Boxing Day.

[Anya Cain]

We'll be here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we've been told, by the way, don't even bother releasing any podcast between Christmas and New Year because no one listens. But we care. We care about the dear listeners. And so we will be here between Christmas.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe Murder Sheet people are like us. They're a little bit quiet, maybe they're a little bit awkward. You know, if you, if you want, if you want people to back off of you at the holiday party, just start blasting murder sheet and bunch of horrible murders happening, people are going to slowly back away. So it's kind of a little bit of a strategic thing. If you want to, if you want.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To try that or if you want attention, just wear a delightful Christmas bonnet and then everybody will be coming up to you and complimenting us.

[Anya Cain]

God, if you are a loved one of a Murder Sheet listener, you know, and you're looking for a last minute, last dash Christmas gift, you know, we still have shirts. You can always get a shirt. The information's in our show notes. And you know, a book is also a good gift for Christmas. And our book is called Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders and the Dark side of the American Heartland. And it's also a get even. If you already have the book, you can always get another one and give it to somebody else, because I think that story is really important. And we've been told by a lot of people that they thought the book was very good. And a lot of people said actually they were like, you guys are podcasters. So I kind of thought this thing was gonna be a hot mess, but it really was really good. So that's the kind of praise I love. A lot of people came into it with low expectations, and we very much exceeded them. Do you remember a couple people said that? They're like, I've read books by podcasters, and some of them are not very good. And we kind of thought this would be that, but it wasn't, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Ha.

[Anya Cain]

We proved him wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So now, Anya, let's imagine you're dressed as Santa Claus.

[Anya Cain]

No, no, no, enough. You're the guy with the beard.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're dressed as Santa Claus. A bunch of children come in. They're gathered around you to hear a story, and from Santa, I'm literally gonna, like, like. So you tell us, you. You have an anecdote planned. So now, Anya, addressed as Santa. Maybe we have some Christmas carols in the back.

[Anya Cain]

How about I. How about my Christmas is locking you out of the house in the cold at this point, you always make me sound so fucking ridiculous. Why am I dressed as Santa? You're a bearded man. You can dress as Santa while I storm upstairs. How's that? Merry Christmas.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm painting a picture. I'm setting the stage for your Christmas anecdote for the children.

[Anya Cain]

No. What? I'm going. Yeah, well, you did a terrible job, and I'm going to haunt you like Jacob Marley. I'm going to be showing up at night rattling change and talking about all the times you embarrassed me on this program.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're saying, would you like that? So you're saying, kevin, don't. Don't tell people that I might dress up in a way to entertain and delight children. No, tell them I'm more like an old dead man who did terrible things in life and is wearing chains.

[Anya Cain]

You know what I'm going to. You know what I'm going to be? You know what I'm going to be? This is the energy I'm going to breathe. I'm going to wake you up in the middle of the night dressed in, like, a hooded cloak, like the ghosts of Christmas future, and be pointing a bony hand at a tombstone that has the words serial thief on them. That's what I'm going to be doing. We're going to go there. I'm going like, this is my reputation. It's like Taylor Swift coming out of the grave. But that's my reputation is now serial thief. And I'm going to be pointing at it, and you're going to be like, oh, no. Yeah, that's what's going to happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you know, I mean, we reap what we sow.

[Anya Cain]

Cereal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If that's. If that's.

[Anya Cain]

You're trying me in the press and it's a wrongful conviction, if that's what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People think of you, maybe you should ask yourself some hard questions, make up.

[Anya Cain]

Some crazy shit about you and just start putting it out there. How would you like that for 2026? Is that the energy you want in 2026?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just saying, we reap what we sow. And if you're known for stealing cereal, maybe you should change your ways of the new year. But.

[Anya Cain]

But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, the children are waiting.

[Anya Cain]

Our listeners are adults. If any children are listening, then I'm sorry, then you just heard some horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Stuff with this story. You told me the story you're going to tell. It's family friendly.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, it is. This one is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have your Santa cap on.

[Anya Cain]

No, I'm not. I don't have a fucking Santa. You are ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have the fake.

[Anya Cain]

Why do you always make me sound. Why am I. Why am I. Why am I dressed as Santa? That makes me sound ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's the last show before Christmas and you want to show that you care about the holiday. You have the holiday spirit. You're just a jolly friendly old elf.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to kill you. I want to sound like a cool, sophisticated woman on the show. And everyone else, everyone listening is like, yeah, well, nice try, but that totally is antithetical to anything I want to say. I don't want you to look at me and associate me with looking like Santa. Why would you say that about your wife? It's Christmas, fellas. Just tell the story. Any of the fellas who's listening. You know, this is a master class in what not to do. Just FYI to everybody. Oh, my God. You have taken this sleigh off the trail into the snowbank. Sir.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tell the children gathered around you.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Christmas anecdote.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so here's my stupid anecdote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your mother Christmas.

[Anya Cain]

This is I. For. I was like, at times in my life. Well, this sounds like dark, but, like, whatever. All of my stories have, like, some sort of dark like, wow, Anya's a troubled woman kind of vibe to them. But I. I was like, you know, I wanted to. Like, I always. I. Since I was young, I was like, I need to lose some weight. So one way I tried to do that in college was I was like, hey, I'll. You know, it's one thing that you lose weight doing is running. I don't like to run, but I. You know, that's something people do. So I'd sign up for a race thinking, oh, that'll force me to work out, and then I wouldn't. And then I would just show up and so. Great idea, right? So I did this, like, 5k. I sucked at it. I think I ended up walking a lot of it at. At my college. And it was. You know, it was really embarrassing. I did a really bad job. Like, there's no. There's no nice way of saying it. I didn't. I didn't, like, get healthy or fit or lose weight or anything. I just showed up and humiliated myself. But that's not the story. The story is that people. People are like, anya, you're on the website of the school. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, I wonder if, like, a photographer came around to one of the classes I was in. I was in this really cool class where we would drive around in a van and go to different historical sites. Like, maybe something from that. I don't know, could be anything. And. But they looked a little bit bemused when they were telling me, so I was concerned. So I look it up, and there's a picture of me at this fucking 5k running. The people in front of me are, like, the most photogenic women you could imagine. Beautiful models. Just like. They look perfect. They look like they're not in an actual 5k. They look like they're in a commercial for, like, medicine where they run a 5k. But they look impossibly good. They just look. They're. They're like. They look like they're chatting. They look like they're having the time of their lives. Healthy, glowing skin, very fit, very attractive. And then there's me, literally lurking behind them, hulking over them. My face looks like it's melting. That's all I can say. I look terrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is all over the college website.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. This was their banner picture. I look like I'm about to eat these women. It's not good. It was not good. I just. But, you know, I was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's the one and only picture I've ever seen of you. That is not flat, because obviously I.

[Anya Cain]

Had to screenshot it. I was like, this will motivate me. I guess it didn't, but it was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you take lovely pictures.

[Anya Cain]

No, I don't. But this one, I'm notoriously unphotogenic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This one was not your best.

[Anya Cain]

No, I'm, I'm not a. I don't take good pictures. Sometimes I think I look a little bit better in person than I do in pictures. Although, like, you know, don't sound off on that one. I don't want to know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People.

[Anya Cain]

Some people at the book signings, like, well, I don't know about that. I, I, I will say, like, I. I don't think I take good pictures. The one picture I thought I looked good in recently was our author photo. Thank God. And that was taken by me. Taken. Well, it was taken by. Wasn't it taken by us? Didn't we have a tripod set up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, but the tripod.

[Anya Cain]

Stolen Valor of the tripod.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The tripod was my idea.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. So we took a tripod picture, and. And I was like, wow, that's actually shockingly a good picture of me for once in my frigging life. And that was. That was validating. But then I heard you told me this. I'm not. I don't know if I should say this, so we can cut it out if you want, but you said that some people who, like, obsessively hate on us on the Internet, even they admitted I look good in that picture. So I was like, thank you, sir, for a scrap of validation. I was, like, tipping my hat to them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And their theory was that the reason you looked good was.

[Anya Cain]

AI, no, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The picture was taken, like, 10 years ago.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no, no, no, no. That's really generous of them to think that we were sitting on that for years, because we. With. With. That doesn't make any sense. We didn't have a book deal 10 years ago. We didn't know each other 10 years ago. But second of all, we left that photo to the last minute. That was, like, one of the last things we had to do for the book. And our.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was like April or May, wasn't it?

[Anya Cain]

We went, yeah. Heather was like, hey, where's that picture? And we're like, oh, we don't want to take it. So we've blown months. Because, like, I. I don't want. Because I was like, I'm gonna look awful. And then somehow we pulled that one off. So I was. I was pretty happy about that. But, yeah, no, that. That's like, one of the few ones. Most of the time, Kevin takes pictures of me, like. Or, like, we'll be at, like, doing something. He'll take a picture of me and then he'll show it to me and, like, ruin my day. I'm like. I don't wanna. I don't want to know that I look like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're welcome.

[Anya Cain]

That's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's always the reaction. Yeah, it's always the reaction I'm going to for.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Jesus Christ. Is that what I look like? Thanks, Kevin. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, but every picture of you is great. Except for this one. That was.

[Anya Cain]

You say that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Seen by everyone in your college.

[Anya Cain]

You say that. You say that like you're like one of Those, like, like, POWs that's just listing your, like, name and rank and, you know, like, that's what, like. Oh, I'm not going to say anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's. It's fair to say you're a beautiful young woman.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. No, I'm not. But thank you. And I. I love you. I. I don't care about. I. I don't care about that. I mean, like, as long as you think I'm cute, then I'm good. You know, that's what. That's. I'm not. I'm not looking to be the. The sexy face of true crime here, but I just thought that was the funniest thing with the picture. Literally, I. I'd say I don't take good pictures, but this, the one that appeared on the website of the college was uncommonly bad. Really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was unfortunate.

[Anya Cain]

It had a really menacing aura to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your sister's actually a professional.

[Anya Cain]

She's a professional run. So. I did not get that, Gene. She got it. I did not. Or frankly, her. Her tendency to be very diligent about, like, exercise and stuff. I've never been like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've seen pictures of her when she's running and they're fine.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, she looks like a professional doing her job. And I, I, Yeah, this was. Yeah, this was. This was a mistake. But I was like, you know what? I. I was like, who did this to me? What? William Mary, Photographer. Do I need to go, like, fight, like. Or did I piss off and they've been, like, playing the long game for revenge? But, yeah, it was. It was a mess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was very unfortunate.

[Anya Cain]

It was funny, though. I'm not gonna lie.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I've seen the picture.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So you agree with me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm always very honest. You generally, you look beautiful in pictures. This was one of the rare exceptions.

[Anya Cain]

I just look like I'm lumbering. Oh, man. That's my story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I have two bad 8k and 5k stories, so I should definitely stay away from that in the future.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Leave all the running to.

[Anya Cain]

I'm gonna leave the running to my sister and perhaps do other kinds. I'm just, I'm not a very good runner. I don't have. I don't have the rhythm. I don't have the. I don't have the inclination. And I find that it just kind of hurts running around. But respect to people who enjoy it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What an endorsement. It kind of hurts running around.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it does. Swimming's a lot more low impact for me, which is kind of what I need. So anyways, thanks everyone for listening. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate Happy Holidays. To everyone who celebrates other holidays happening. And we just are grateful for all of you. Thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are. And I still am very confident that Anya could pull off the Santa suit. Look great with it. But you can push the button. You could push the button.

[Anya Cain]

I'm definitely pushing the button. Jesus.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] you and your Santa gag. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Save over $200 when you book weekly. Stays with VRBO this winter. If you haven't seen your college besties since, well, college, you need a week to catch up in a snowy cabin, take a week long vacation and save over $200. Book [e-mail] I'm Martha Stewart and I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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