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- [00:00]
Kevin Greenlee
You ever feel like your day is going so bad that it's almost like being in the middle of a mystery you just can't solve?
- [00:07]
Anya Cain
Oh yeah, it's so frustrating, right? You just feel something is completely off.
- [00:11]
Kevin Greenlee
If that sounds like you, your hormones may be the ultimate culprit. And our sponsor, Happy Mammoth may be able to help you solve the case.
- [00:20]
Anya Cain
Happy Mammoth is a natural wellness brand that can help you maintain optimal hormone levels. They also have products to help you boost your gut health.
- [00:28]
Kevin Greenlee
The usual suspects are everywhere when it comes to hormone disruptors. I'm talking about food, air and even skincare products. They can all silently impact our quality of life. Happy Mammoth provides a good solution. By taking their quick two minute quiz, you can kickstart your journey. You get tailor made solutions and recommendations based on your specific needs.
- [00:53]
Anya Cain
I love their Hormone Harmony supplements. These are great for women at all stages of life. I feel they've improved my gut health and reduced the random cravings I get sometimes. So it's kept my hunger for cereal a bit at bay, I suppose. Don't worry though. I still do the heist just for fun.
- [01:08]
Kevin Greenlee
For women who are in menopause or perimenopause, Hormone Harmony supplements can help relieve those symptoms, reduce mood swings and hot flashes and help with sleep. They also give you more energy. For women in that stage of life. It is really a wonderful solution.
- [01:25]
Anya Cain
For a limited time, you can get 15% off on your entire first order. @happy mammoth.com just use the code msheet at checkout that's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today. It's getting hot out there and if you're like me, you're looking to switch things up with your wardrobe. And if you're really, really like me, you don't want to spend a lot of money doing so. Especially with pieces that go out of style fast.
- [01:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, that's where our wonderful sponsor Quince comes in. Quince specializes in high end, lightweight, timeless pieces that you will treasure for years to come, all at low prices.
- [02:03]
Anya Cain
They've got some amazing stuff right now. Quince has 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Swimwear that will make you feel fancy at the beach or pool. Italian leather platform sandals and more. We're about to go and splurge on some of these and we'll keep you all updated on what we get. I'm really tempted to wear one of their swimsuits to the pool, but I also really love the look of some of their linen dresses to wear out and about this summer. I don't know. Maybe I'll have to get all of it.
- [02:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Quince keeps its prices low by cutting out the middlemen, so you get luxury Items that cost 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. It's a steal.
- [02:38]
Anya Cain
Give your summer closet an upgrade with quints. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com/msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn Stocks MSHEET Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence as well as child sexual abuse materials.
- [03:04]
Kevin Greenlee
I want to say you might, some of you might remember recently I was like really preoccupied focusing on some of the details in the Temujin Kinsu case. And so Anya took the lead, plus researching and finding all the cases for several episodes of Cheat Sheet. She did a great job on it, but the strain broke her health. She's just a complete coughing, disgusting mess.
- [03:31]
Anya Cain
Oh my God. You are one to talk. You got me sick. You got me sick.
- [03:35]
Kevin Greenlee
I think it was the strain of doing my half of the work on Cheat Sheet. So just a heads up, she'll be fine. But she There might be some coughs from one or both of us in this episode, which we bitterly regret.
- [03:47]
Anya Cain
So this is how it happened because some people think. Some people I've been talking to think I got him sick, he got me sick and then I got him sick and then he got me sick again. That's where we are.
- [03:58]
Kevin Greenlee
So we're like a very bitter, hateful couple who are just constantly getting revenge on each other by this is going.
- [04:03]
Anya Cain
To turn into who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Pretty soon. But no, I'm just kidding. But it's one of those things. It's sorry if we sound weird, we'll try not to cough as much as possible. I'm drinking my throat coating tea, so hopefully that won't happen too much. But. But yeah. So today on the Cheat Sheet, I'm also happy to have you back doing Cheat Sheets because I think you kind of pick some interesting cases that are a bit different from mine. So it's always good fun to get some diversity of opinion in cases.
- [04:30]
Kevin Greenlee
So it's not pure, unadulterated Anya.
- [04:33]
Anya Cain
Yes. Sorry to all the Anya fans out there.
- [04:36]
Kevin Greenlee
It's tempered this week with a healthy dose of Kevin.
- [04:40]
Anya Cain
This is these cases span from Oklahoma to Indiana to Alaska to something that kind of is both California and Colorado and Some of them are topics and cases we talked about before, and then some of them are totally new. So I'm excited to get into it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [05:00]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [05:03]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [05:05]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [05:11]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Sloppiness and security.
- [06:02]
Kevin Greenlee
We're going to start with a case I chose, which is actually an update on a case I chose some months ago. So I'm just chasing my own tail here. This is the Glossop case out of Oklahoma. And my source for this was actually a press release from the Oklahoma Attorney General, who is Gittner Drummond. So, as you may or may not recall, the Glossop case involves the beating death all the way back in 1997 of a man named Barry Van Treese. And a man named Richard Glossop was convicted of that crime. Not only was he convicted, but he was sentenced to death. Some people started raising concerns, claiming they thought he was innocent or at the very least got an unfair trial. One of the people who was concerned he had an unfair trial was the Attorney General of Oklahoma. Their concerns reached the United States Supreme Court earlier this year, and the United States Supreme Court said in their opinion it was not a fair trial. And so what is going to happen now is that Oklahoma had the option to basically just let him go or try him again. And the Attorney General of Oklahoma, Mr. Drummond, has released a statement saying, you know what? I always said I thought he got an unfair trial. I never said I thought he was innocent. And he said he's been going through and researching the case and talking to people involved, and he feels that the proper course of action is to put Mr. Glassup on trial again, not for a death penalty, but just to try him for the murder. And he feels confident he will get a conviction. Some people who say, oh, he glossed up one of the Supreme Court that should do it are upset and frustrated. I disagree with Attorney General Drummond to the point that I don't feel that the trial was unfair, but I feel that his position here is honorable, where if we are taking away a person's life or even just their liberty for decades, we want to be really, really careful. We do it in a very fair and above board way. And so it's completely consistent to say, I think he is guilty and should be convicted. I think he got convicted the wrong way. What do you think.
- [08:46]
Anya Cain
Well, I. I'm not gonna lie, Kevin. I have become incredibly jaded around the topic of innocence advocacy in this country. To be, I mean, to be totally blunt, I think. I mean, at this point, I've gone from sort of just wholeheartedly accepting certain things, especially if there's a flashy media campaign behind a case, which there certainly has been in the Glossip case, to just being inherently skeptical of that. And I share your skepticism that his trial was unfair. Was his trial perfect? No, absolutely not. Is there such a thing as a perfect trial? I would argue no. Do I think that people just uncritically accept this stuff in the media today? Yes. And I guess without really doing an intensive deep dive myself in this case, I guess I just kind of tend to be very skeptical about this innocent. I mean, there's so much innocence fraud. I cannot convey to you all enough how, how awash we are in innocence fraud, which is just basically slop which, you know, various innocence clinics or attorneys cook up feed to the media who swallow it uncritically. Because the media to a large degree is filled with people who are. Feel they are too busy to really do in depth work on some of this stuff. And there's a view that I think skepticism only goes one way in these cases.
- [10:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, part of the problem is defense attorneys can be very colorful and make very exciting claims that if you accept them uncritically, can be very dramatic and could be like bad information. But the problem is, and it's not really a problem, but people on the prosecution side are more likely to be trying to protect the integrity of a case. And so the prosecutors aren't going to be going out and talking to reporters and saying, oh, this, this, and this that they're telling you is not true, or they're only telling you half of it here. And so because of that, you're really only getting one side slanted in one direction. And so often when you read some of the stories claiming a convicted person is innocent, you may be saying, oh, that makes sense, but you need to recall you're just getting one half of it. And let me give you my own personal cheat sheet that I figured this out maybe 10, 12 years ago. If you see press coverage about a case in which it says, oh, John Doe, he's wrongfully convicted, all these blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's very dramatic and it sounds to you like, oh my God, how could this person's conviction stand? What you should do is try to Google and get your hands on some of the actual briefs and filings in the case. Because when people file things in court documents, there are rules that only basically the best type of evidence, the best type of arguments, the actual facts can be used. So nothing's going to be made up or unreliable. And also the way the legal system is set up is both sides get their say. So it's not like in the popular media where maybe you don't get both sides. So in a legal document, if, even if the prosecution says, oh, I think this is really strong, there would likely be some sort of a response that you can find from the defense. So if you look at the legal filings as opposed to the media accounts, you're more likely to get a fuller picture that will allow you to assess the case more accurately and more fully. And certainly that's. That's how I started down the road with Temujin Kinzu.
- [12:51]
Anya Cain
Right. And I guess to me also there's also an element here and all what you said is great advice for people to, you know, look into stuff yourself. I mean, I don't know, it's hard to interpret some of these legal documents if you're not coming from a legal background. At least I, I found it, I had a learning curve. But you get used to it. You can kind of read them a little bit better. I, I would say too, that in the United States, we have the death penalty. It's controversial. People feel a type of ways about it. People are very against it. They can be very for it. They can be like me and just completely burned out and not really caring either way at this point. And one thing about it that I've noticed is that I think there's a sense from anti. I mean, I, what I see frequently is people being decried as, oh, this guy must be innocent, we can't execute him. And then you look into it and you're like, I don't know if it's as obvious as it's being stated. I think the reason for that is just simply public relations. You know, I don't. I think it's a, it's a very principled stance to take that someone can do something awful and not be executed. Right? So like, oh, this guy did this heinous crime, but we still shouldn't execute him because he's still a human being and he's still, you know, we should, we should just incarcerate him. And I think that's a harder argument to make, frankly. I think it's more emotional and more appealing to people. If it's like well, yeah, if he did this, then he should fry, but I don't think he did. And I think to me, the, the kind of overlap between the innocence advocacy and the anti death penalty work, it's just kind of led to situations where people are just, it's a bunch of bs, I guess. Like that's what I'm, I mean, I, I, and I become, I become disillusioned to that because I think I, I respect a principled stance where someone is saying, no, no matter how guilty you are, no, no matter what you did, no matter how awful it was, we should still not execute you. And that's it. You can agree and disagree with that, but there's something incredibly powerful about that to me. Whereas this whole thing of like, everyone's innocent. Right. And come on, I mean, I don't know, I just, I just roll my eyes at that at this point.
- [15:03]
Kevin Greenlee
But I can tell you that stance is not one that's appreciated because I frankly oppose the death penalty. So when I've in the past gotten involved with some of these discussions where people say, oh, I think Mr. Smith is innocent and therefore he should not be executed, my position would often be, well, I think he is guilty, but he still should not be executed. And that's like a position which pleases no one, really.
- [15:29]
Anya Cain
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I get that people, I mean, people kind of are, you know, they kind of, I think there's a sense of like, if you do something awful, you deserve something awful to happen to you amongst many people.
- [15:39]
Kevin Greenlee
And, but, but also these discussions, they, they upset me because there are a lot of good hearted, intelligent people out there who are being manipulated with false or distorted information. And that's bad enough. It's bad enough to manipulate people, or it's bad enough to be manipulated yourself. But it becomes worse when you think that there are real people involved with this. There's victims, families and stuff who find these sorts of things potentially enormously painful to talk about.
- [16:12]
Anya Cain
I wonder, Kevin, I mean, do you feel like that's definitely happening in this gossip case or is, is it is a little more nuanced? I know a lot of the case rested upon the testimony of this Justin Sneed character who's, you know, was the one who actually carried out the murder and that then he said, well, I was, you know, Richard Glossip had me do this. In fairness, if there's credibility issues with him, I can understand why people are being very cautious about this one or saying, hey, you know, well, I mean.
- [16:42]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm telling you in My opinion, it was a fair trial, but it's not. The idea that it is not a fair trial, the argument that it was actually an unfair trial, that is not irrational. And certainly as a general principle, before we take away someone's life or liberty, I would like to bend over backwards to be as fair to them as possible. So it's like, I'm not outraged by this. I disagree with the decision the Supreme Court made, but it's not an outrageous or an irrational decision.
- [17:10]
Anya Cain
So do you feel it was marginal enough that you can understand this outcome, even if you personally felt that it didn't rise to the level of his trial being unfair?
- [17:19]
Kevin Greenlee
The state has so much power in this country. We don't want to make it easy to convict or execute people.
- [17:29]
Anya Cain
Right. Well, this is also. People ask us why, you know, this is a heinous case. This is a heinous case. Why isn't the death penalty being pursued? It does add a level of, you know, controversy and added scrutiny to things. Once you have a countdown clock ticking for someone to be executed. So that can be a thing to dissuade you of. Like, we don't even want to involve that. It's just going to drag things on more and let's just be happy with a long sentence or life and without parole or something. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's all fair. I just, you know, and again, I'm. When I'm talking about like this whole innocence fraud stuff, I'm not even saying that that's happening here. I'm really just truly saying I've seen it happen so much that when people are trying to beat me over the head with it online, I'm just, I'm skeptical.
- [18:17]
Kevin Greenlee
And I, I think maybe both of us feel this is a very, this is a time of our lives. We're feeling particularly strong about that topic given our recent coverage of Temujin Kinzu.
- [18:28]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I mean, I, I've. I've gotten skeptical on a lot of things through covering true crime. I've gotten skeptical on this idea that, like, people, you know, kind of present themselves as this sort of crime solving genius who's like, you know, I, I really see crime solving as more of a team effort that you get to by following specific standards and not, you know, oh, Sherlock Holmes is going to come in and save us. You know, Sherlock Holmes doesn't exist. He won't save us. And I've gotten skeptical on things like, you know, the, the benefits of Internet sleuthing. And I've Certainly gotten skeptical on what I view as prevailing innocence fraud in. In the discussion around these cases to the point where it's like just. I see it everywhere, and it's. It's very unfortunate, I think.
- [19:19]
Kevin Greenlee
Shall we move on to your first case?
- [19:21]
Anya Cain
Uhhuh. Yeah, sure. So let's go back to our own home state of Indiana. My source for this is some terrific reporting from Fox 59, which is one of our local news stations, and there's been some upsetting and disturbing information coming out of Shelby County, Indiana, from Shelbyville. So Federal Bureau of Investigation special agents recently raided or served warrants, I suppose I should say, at a home on, I believe it was June 5, 2025. And this was as part of an investigation into child sexual abuse materials. You look like you want to say something.
- [20:05]
Kevin Greenlee
No, no, no.
- [20:06]
Anya Cain
Okay. And this home was reported by Fox 59 as belonging to David Finkel. Finkel is a prominent local figure. This guy is the director of the Strand Theater. He also serves on the Shelbyville Central Schools Board as vice president of the board. And people, you know, there's photographs circulating online of, you know, FBI agents with the jackets kind of going in and out. This all happened on West Broadway in Shelbyville. And, yeah, I mean, these are anonymous sources that are saying it's about child sexual abuse materials, but it sounds like Fox59 gets several sources all saying the same thing, and that's really obviously not a good thing. We had some listeners ask us to look into this, and so we're just kind of following up on Fox 59's reporting. You should definitely follow them for more. But as of today, June 10, 2025, is when we're recording this. It sounds like the Shelbyville Central School Board has asked Finkel to resign. And they sent a letter just saying you need to file this paperwork and resign as a result of this. And, you know, I don't know. That is, I can understand why, given the nature of these allegations, but we'll have to see how they play out. But, you know, it's. Yeah, it's. It's very upsetting.
- [21:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it's terrible.
- [21:41]
Anya Cain
So I guess back to you.
- [21:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Back to me. Are you worried that the strain of me doing another case is going to break my health like it did you?
- [21:53]
Anya Cain
Are you saying the cheat sheet is killing us?
- [21:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Look at us. We're falling apart over here.
- [21:59]
Anya Cain
Fair.
- [21:59]
Kevin Greenlee
It's a. It's a. Yeah, I digress. So this case is all the way in Alaska. That's like a long way for the cane train to go. And I'll just mention in passing, I bought you what was allegedly in a one size fits all engineers cap. And it was like one size fits all for children. Do you remember this thing? It just really was like perched on the top of your head. It was a. It was. It was unfortunate.
- [22:24]
Anya Cain
In fairness. I have a big head, you know. I mean, you have a really big head, but I have a big head. So I. I feel like it may be somewhat my fault.
- [22:33]
Kevin Greenlee
You. You always take on too much blame.
- [22:35]
Anya Cain
No, I mean, I have one of those big melon heads.
- [22:38]
Kevin Greenlee
So you have a lovely head on your shoulders.
- [22:42]
Anya Cain
Thank you. What an odd compliment.
- [22:46]
Kevin Greenlee
That's what I'm here for. My sources for this is the Alaska Beacon. That site also included a link to an order from a judge which was also a source I used. And this is crazy stuff here. This is crazy stuff. It only starts with the death. And I call it a death instead of a murder because it's really unclear what happened. Basically, a guy is shot in his residence and his brother Isaac Henderson is charged with the crime, is charged with murder. But it's unclear if it was a murder or what happened. And the reason it is unclear is because the police department in that area bungled this so completely. The judge in the case called it shocking. Again, this is Alaska. This is the. And knowing me, I'm going to bungle a lot of these names because that's, that's my unfortunate custom. But it's the Met Lakatra Police Department or Metloc Atla Police Department.
- [24:04]
Anya Cain
And.
- [24:07]
Kevin Greenlee
The judge said she was rather. The judge said he was shocked by some of the things that came out. Police officers knowingly completed incomplete chain of custody logs. They destroyed chain of custody logs. They made contradictory statements under oath about what sort of evidence they had collected. The prosecution wasn't turning over a lot of discovery on time. I'm going to read a little bit from the judge's order here. Quote, Chief of Police Janes described a remarkable procedure for evidence handling. He acknowledged that the evidence log form contains a place for the officer who collected the evidence to note the date and time. The evidence is being entered into the vault above a section of where the officer can list each item that was seized. But he explained the department standard practices put inaccurate information on those forms. The logs do not identify the officer who collected the evidence or the date the evidence was logged. That. That is a huge problem. Do you. Do you want to talk about why that's a problem, Hania?
- [25:23]
Anya Cain
It just reminds me that list I started kind of slightly Opening my mouth and my jaw was like hanging and then I was like hiding my face. You can't see us, but like, wow, that reminds me of that like, episode of Faulty Towers where they list all the different health code violations and then end it within two dead pigeons in the water tank. And V's like, otherwise okay. Like, like that. That's really, that's really shocking. And a lot of that goes just to basic. That, that's not really like, those are basic standards and practices. I mean, right. Like that, like, that's like, that's not like advanced policing there. That's like just the standard, like chain of custody stuff. Don't destroy it.
- [26:05]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. By chain of custody, it means it's very important, let's say hypothetically that you have a murder case and a crucial piece of evidence is a gun from the crime scene. So at the very least, if that gun is going to be discussed in the trial, you want the jury to feel assured that the gun they are seeing discussed is the gun from the crime scene. And you give them that assurance by the so called chain of evidence. So you say, oh, Officer X, he picked up this gun, he collected it, he put it in this bag, he then gave the bag to officer Y and so on. And if you don't have this chain of evidence, if you can't follow the gun along every step of its journey from the crime scene to it being discussed in court, then you have an issue. Because then the question becomes, are we sure this is the evidence that was actually collected?
- [27:00]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I mean, it's basic. It's, it's, it's not, it's not something that's like new and people are having trouble struggling to implement. This is just. And the fact that these were destroyed raises even more questions. It's not even that they were not properly maintained, but things that were maintained or then destroyed for whatever reason. That's, that's something that just undermines confidence in this police department and should concern anybody. Because a lot of these rules have to do with ensuring people have a fair trial, ensuring that civil liberties are protected, and ensuring that there's not like massive police corruption.
- [27:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Let me read some more from this order. Quote, the defense attorney questioned Chief Janes about a panel that had been removed from the ceiling. Photos showed that police had identified a hole in the kitchen ceiling that might have been a bullet hole. Cut that square out of the ceiling and identified a second hole in the plywood sheathing on the roof. The photos did not document the precise angle of the shot. Chief Janes testified that the police had left the ceiling tile in the home. He also conceded that he had testified to grand jury that the police had collected this ceiling tile and sent it to the crime lab for examination. The chief stated that his sworn grand jury testimony was false and the police did not actually collect this item, end quote. So you have him. This is very, very disturbing. I'm, like, laughing a bit, but it's just. I'm shocked. I'm shocked. Here's a little bit more from the judge's order. Chief James said that the investigation was very sloppily, was very sloppy and probably the worst I've ever done, end quote. I hope it's the worst he's ever done because this. This is. This is disgraceful.
- [28:46]
Anya Cain
Like, how does this happen?
- [28:49]
Kevin Greenlee
There are also concerns about. There were, like, written. Whether or not there were written statements collected, because there's no written statements in the police file. It's really just a huge mess. And when you have an investigation that is handled this badly and when you have evidence that is handled this badly, it really does become impossible to have a trial, because how can you know what evidence is valid and what is not? How can you even tell what happened?
- [29:29]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it's like it destroys the case. It completely destroys the case. Because once you get to this point, it's just, as you said, you can't trust anything. And if you can't trust anything, you can't. A prosecutor can't file charges or can't go to trial knowing how bad this is.
- [29:50]
Kevin Greenlee
And it gets the. The director of the Alaskan criminal division, Angie Kemp, says that her division of prosecutors, her state attorneys, will not prosecute criminal cases coming from this police department unless they involve particularly serious crimes. So state attorneys will not be prosecuting cases from this department, this police department, unless it involves serious crimes. And. And that is. That reflects the absolute low level of confidence they have in the competence of this department.
- [30:29]
Anya Cain
Wow.
- [30:29]
Kevin Greenlee
If I was a resident of this area, I would be pretty upset.
- [30:34]
Anya Cain
People should be upset. The people of this area deserve better than what they're getting here. I mean, it. What. What can be done? Can they clean house? You know, like, can they get. Get some people in there who know what they're doing? I mean, that. That's really concerning.
- [30:52]
Kevin Greenlee
They've indicated they're going to try to basically rebuild, but, yeah, they need to.
- [30:57]
Anya Cain
They need to rebuild.
- [30:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. It is shocking. The judge said one of these hearings where this information came out was a shocking hearing. And when judges also. I should tell you, the judge said, oh, they have a remarkable process for handling something. When a judge said something is remarkable in that context, that's not good.
- [31:19]
Anya Cain
No, you don't want to have a remarkable. You don't want it to be remarked upon.
- [31:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. So I think that's about all I wanted to say there. I think you have one more case to discuss.
- [31:29]
Anya Cain
I do. And this is actually a case, sort of a famous angle. I think I've said it on the show that I definitely enjoy the music of Taylor Swift. I think that's. That's come out.
- [31:40]
Kevin Greenlee
You also enjoy her taste in rhubarb candy.
- [31:43]
Anya Cain
I do. She recommended this squashies candy, and that is really good. And I know you were mad about it because it has rhubarb in it, but I think it's really good.
- [31:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Why would you. Candied rhubarb. I mean, that's not right.
- [31:53]
Anya Cain
Rhubarb's good. You can have strawberry rhubarb pies. You're wrong about this. I'm sorry. But this is a. This is a disturbing situation, and I think I wanted to cover it because if this can happen, Taylor Swift is. Is a billionaire. She's a. One of the most successful musical artists out there. She's incredibly powerful and wealthy and connected. If she's having this issue, I think it highlights that this is an issue facing many people, many women in particular, but also it can happen to men. So I think this is something that I'd like to talk about, just using this kind of situation as an example. And my source for this is NBC News. So Taylor Swift came out recently filing a restraining order against a man that she alleges is stalking her. And this is not the first stalker that Taylor Swift has had. Unfortunately, we've seen over the years celebrities attract stalkers and sometimes with tragic results. Obviously, John Lennon was famously murdered by Mark David Chapman, a stalker who was obsessed with him. We've had other celebrities murdered by stalkers. We've had up and coming young musicians. Christy Grimmie is the one that comes to mind. Christina Grimmie is this young woman. She's kind of building her career. She's gaining popularity. And in 2016, a man shot her dead while she was signing autographs.
- [33:31]
Kevin Greenlee
And going back to my generation, because I'm a much, much older man than you. The actress Rebecca Schaeffer, I believe, was killed by a stalker back in the late 80s, early 90s.
- [33:39]
Anya Cain
Yes. And so Swift Stalker is a man named Br. Jason Wagner. He's 45 years old and he's from Colorado, and he has a criminal Background. And what the, you know, filing from Swift declares is that he showed up at her Los Angeles property in July 2024 and went there like three times that month and was, he made bizarre statements about how he lives at her house and that how she was the mother of his son and that he needed to talk to her. So just obviously those things are not true. So at this point it's also come out that she, that this guy sent Taylor Swift's team, like hundreds and hundreds of emails, threatening language and, and just bizarre, bizarre stuff. Like he told the Department of Motor Vehicles that his address was her address in Los Angeles and he, he somehow set that up to have this false address and that his driver's license therefore went to her house. You know, I mean, it, it, it really bizarre and concerning stuff. And this is the kind of situation where people can get killed over this. But of course, this kind of thing, celebrities can be at a risk about this because they're high profile. People become obsessed with them and want to do stuff. But eventually, you know, this is something that could happen to anybody. Anybody can attract a stalker. People can be stalked by people that they were once dating or they went on one date with, or they were in a relationship with it. Like, you know, you can be dating someone for five years and then they're, you're, then they're your stalker. Or you can go on one date or have a minor interaction with someone and be stalked by them. And I just think that there needs to be a lot more done in terms of legislation and criminalizing this. And you know, I know it's not popular to say we should criminalize things. We're supposed to want to decriminalize everything. But I think this kind of behavior is antisocial and dangerous. And more so than like, it's not even just about like people are getting killed, which they are, but it's also about people's lives get ruined. And again, Taylor Swift has so much money, so much power, so many resources. You know, someone like her is better equipped to deal with something like this and also has a very intense security team to protect her. But your average, you know, lady in the town over from you doesn't have any of that. She can't do anything. And if, and if she's being told, well, you know, he hasn't hurt you yet, you know, that's not acceptable. I think people like this should be locked up and prevented from harming others. It's like, I don't know why that's, I don't even Know how that would be controversial? I mean, what do you think?
- [36:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I agree. There's a long history of people who commit these type of offenses and it escalates to result in tragedy. So I'm glad that when celebrities like this call attention to it, it raises the issue because you do not have to be a celebrity to be stalked.
- [37:04]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I want stalkers, I want people exhibiting stalkers stalking behavior to be in a situation where they are charged and sentenced to lengthy sentences where no one has to deal with this nonsense and that upon release they're severely monitored. I don't think it should ruin the stalking victim's life. I think it should ruin the stalker's life. And if people want to say, well, a lot of it's mental health issues, I don't care. That's not, that's not the victim's problem. You know what I mean? Like I, I, that that's neither here nor there. It's, it, we're at a point where this has happened too many times. This is happening to too many people, celebrities and otherwise. That my, my sympathy is, is kind of with the people dealing with this. And, and if somebody has a, an excuse, mental health wise, that's fine. But if you're not taking care of yourself and doing what you need to do to stay healthy and it's causing problems to other people, then that's no longer just a you problem. You're causing problems for society. And you do owe something to society to the point where you're not like going around scaring, threatening and upsetting people to this degree. I just, I think long sentences put them away and so people don't have to deal with this nonsense. That's my take.
- [38:16]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree completely.
- [38:17]
Anya Cain
It should be. And I think law enforcement should take it more seriously. I think prosecutors should take it more seriously. I think there should be a clear delineated thing that people are able to do to get people to knock it off and, and that there will be consequences.
- [38:30]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, of course law enforcement and prosecution need, prosecutors need tools. So they need laws to be passed to be very strong in these areas.
- [38:39]
Anya Cain
That's fair and I understand that. And I, I, I think anti stalking legislation should be par for the course and it should be extremely strict and it should be enforced. Yeah, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm disgusted with this. And again, like, yeah, the fact that it's happening to this very, very powerful woman is just like, yeah, it really does happen to everybody. And you know, I hope they're able to get this Wagner guy out of. Out of there. Because, I mean, that's ridiculous. And it shouldn't be happening to anyone, though. It really shouldn't be. It really should not be something where, like, you need a powerful mega legal team and a team of former Secret Service operatives helping you in order to get something done about this. Like, that's. That's a. That's not fair. That's in. That's inequality.
- [39:23]
Kevin Greenlee
And.
- [39:23]
Anya Cain
And we need. We need more support for people who are stalking victims.
- [39:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Exactly. And we also need very soon to get you back to your sick bed, maybe with some hot tea. Hot milk, is it?
- [39:36]
Anya Cain
What? Hot milk I want.
- [39:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Is. Is that a thing? Is hot milk a thing?
- [39:40]
Anya Cain
I never.
- [39:40]
Kevin Greenlee
I don't. I don't drink milk.
- [39:41]
Anya Cain
I don't really like milk either, to be honest. But I mean, like, occasionally it's all right, but, like, not, not. Not usually.
- [39:48]
Kevin Greenlee
What's Mama Cane's home remedy for when you're not feeling your best?
- [39:53]
Anya Cain
It's funny, my family was always like, oh, like, have some flat coke or something. But that's more of your stomach issues. Right now I'm drinking a lot of tea and I'm trying to have some honey. Although the honey you bought is kind of weird, so I might see if I can get other honey.
- [40:07]
Kevin Greenlee
You refused my honey.
- [40:09]
Anya Cain
That sounds really weird. Let's move on. You're making. Now you're making me laugh, which is making me cough. Oh, my gosh. Sorry. We sound horrible recently. Guys, we're going to try to get our voices back into. Back into normal caliber range and. Yeah, I guess.
- [40:30]
Kevin Greenlee
Book coming out. Crimecon.
- [40:32]
Anya Cain
Oh, come to Crimecon with us. No, seriously, like, if you haven't gotten tickets, we have a way that you can save some money with that. Let me pull up our code, because that's the key. You want the crime con code for us?
- [40:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Isn't it in the Mile High City?
- [40:46]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it's a Mile High city. It's in Denver. So if you. If you guys want to come to CrimeCon, want to save some money, if you use code Murder sheet. It's just our name. All caps, no spaces. M U R D E R S H E E T Then you're going to get 10% off your standard badges for CrimeCon. And that would be really fun because then you can hang out with us and see us.
- [41:08]
Kevin Greenlee
And then should we, like, all meet, like, the Mile High comic book store and then go out for fish sandwiches?
- [41:14]
Anya Cain
I'm sure people would enjoy that. Or, I don't know, people are sitting there like, oh, yeah, maybe I'll. Maybe I'll just avoid them at CrimeCon. But, yeah, we're gonna be signing books, I assume, at some point, and it'll just be fun to see you. So even if you already have a book and you don't want us to sign it or whatever, just come by and stay, say hi, and it'll be fun.
- [41:35]
Kevin Greenlee
But we're really, really excited, primarily signing our own books.
- [41:38]
Anya Cain
Yeah, we're not gonna sign other people's books. That would be pretty weird, right?
- [41:41]
Kevin Greenlee
I've seen it happen.
- [41:43]
Anya Cain
You have?
- [41:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [41:45]
Anya Cain
Well, I mean, anything for anything for our listeners. And I. I would say, actually, what.
- [41:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Could be fun in an. You take a book, like a general book about crime or whatever, and you just go around and you have everybody you like sign it. And then at the end of the event, you have a book with a ton of autographs in it.
- [42:05]
Anya Cain
That's kind of fun. Yeah. But we want to meet you guys and just. I know where we sound really awkward on the show, but we always really enjoy meeting listeners and it's fun and we're thrilled and thanks to CrimeCon for letting us in this.
- [42:18]
Kevin Greenlee
If you meet us in person. Anya is charming and delightful, and I am just creepily silent. I'm very, very off putting.
- [42:28]
Anya Cain
See, what you're doing now is you're. You're saddling with me with overly high expectations and then setting the bar so low for yourself that people are going to be charmed by you and very disappointed in me.
- [42:39]
Kevin Greenlee
How can anyone be disappointed in Anya Kane?
- [42:41]
Anya Cain
I don't know. I'm disappointed in me all the time, I would say. But, yeah, it'll be fun. And again, our book's coming out August 26, 2025. So this year it's coming up. We're going to be. We're organized. We're in the process of organizing different signings. If there's something that you want us to do, murder sheet@gmail.com. put signing in in the subject line and we'll get back to you and see if it's something we can do. We are in the talks with a couple of different book clubs people who are going to assign our book for their book club. We'd love to zoom in and chat with your book club if that's something that you're interested in. Like, people are like, oh, is my book club too small? No, we like meeting people. We like chatting about this. So just send us an email with book club in the subject line and we'll get back to you and we can organize something. And then the other thing is that if you are a creator who's interested in learning about the Delphi case and learning about what our book has uncovered, there's a lot of new information in it. It really gets into the behind the scenes aspect of the investigation. In particular, shoot us an email and if you want to interview us about it or want to set something up, a talk about it, we're in the process of doing that too. So.
- [43:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Murdersheetmail.com but now it's time for Anya to go to the cane sick bed. Enjoy some hot honey, hot milk, hot tea, hot cocoa.
- [44:09]
Anya Cain
Thank you.
- [44:10]
Kevin Greenlee
Hot soup, hot sandwiches.
- [44:12]
Anya Cain
That's all too much.
- [44:13]
Kevin Greenlee
But you need your rest. I do. You've done a heroic effort here tonight with this cheat sheet.
- [44:20]
Anya Cain
Thank you very much and thanks everyone for listening and dealing with us and our constant viral issues and hopefully we'll all be feeling better soon. And thanks to everyone. Yeah, thanks for your support, thanks for listening and we'll be in touch.
- [44:34]
Kevin Greenlee
I push the button.
- [44:35]
Anya Cain
Let's do it.
- [44:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [44:57]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [45:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [45:32]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.