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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
Summer's starting to swelter and if you're like me, your wardrobe could use a warm up too. Preferably without overheating your wallet.
- [00:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Quince is a company that gets you luxury goods without the high prices. We're talking about clothing and accessories and other items that are well made, high quality and stylish. Good stuff that will last you for years to come. They're able to keep their prices low because they cut out the middleman, making their items cost 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors.
- [00:30]
Anya Cain
I went shopping on Quince's website recently. I got their a hundred percent European linen button front dress in blue chambray stripe. I love this dress so much. It's lightweight, it's so comfortable and I really like the way I look in it. It's the kind of dress I know I'm going to be wearing all summer. I think it looks cute and it's just also super comfortable. When I'm in it, I feel like a stylish, sophisticated summer lady and that's kind of a rarity for me in summer dresses. So I'm very excited about this. You should check out their site and get something too. I also will say I got a little blue beret because Kevin insists that I wear more hats.
- [01:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Quinn's also has other 100% European linen dresses and shorts from $30. They have swimwear that will make you feel fancy at the beach or pool as well as footwear like Italian leather platform sandals and more.
- [01:20]
Anya Cain
Give your summer closet an upgrade with quinte. Go to quinte.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet want to have the time of your life while also supporting veterans? Then our sponsor is definitely for you. We're talking about Hometown Hero.
- [01:47]
Kevin Greenlee
This is a company that crafts premium hemp products from infused chocolates to gummies to drink mixes, whatever floats your boat this summer and ships them out to you in discreet packages.
- [01:58]
Anya Cain
And Hometown Hero also lives up to its name by giving back. See, Hometown Hero was founded in 2015 by US veteran Lucas Gilkey. The company donates a portion of its profits to nonprofits that support veterans.
- [02:11]
Kevin Greenlee
We love a company that strives to support our veterans. Plus they are all about quality. You know, all of these products are made in the United States and tested in a third party lab to ensure top notch purity and safety.
- [02:25]
Anya Cain
The hemp itself is all grown in Texas and Hometown Hero is actually based in Austin. So you know exactly what's going into your Hometown Hero products. Most of their products come from live rosin, which is a cannabis concentrate extracted using only heat and pressure, no solvents.
- [02:41]
Kevin Greenlee
You're getting the plant's true essence.
- [02:43]
Anya Cain
It's basically the cold pressed juice of cannabis.
- [02:46]
Kevin Greenlee
And with that in mind, Hometown Hero has really got something for everyone to try. Even peanut butter chocolate squares.
- [02:52]
Anya Cain
Reclaim your evening. Visit hometownhero.com and use code msheet to take 20% off your first purchase. That's hometownhero.com code msheet for 20% off your first purchase.
- [03:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Having a hormonal imbalance can make you feel like you've landed in a baffling mystery story, only one with no ending.
- [03:11]
Anya Cain
You feel bad, you feel off, and it feels like there's nothing you can do to fix it. It's unbelievably frustrating.
- [03:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, our sponsor, Happy Mammoth is on the case. They are a natural wellness that can help you maintain your own optimal hormone levels. They focus on products that lead to hormonal happiness as well as ones that improve your gut health.
- [03:32]
Anya Cain
See, we all encounter hormone disruptors throughout the day in our food, in the air and even in skincare products. All of that saps away at our quality of life, frankly. Fight back. By taking Happy Mammoth's quick two minute quiz. They'll send you tailor made solutions and recommendations about products that can help you. I personally love taking their hormone harmony supplements which are for women at all stages of life. Ever since I started taking them, I feel my gut health and random cravings have really improved.
- [03:58]
Kevin Greenlee
For women who are in menopause or perimenopause, those hormone harmony supplements can help reduce mild mood swings and hot flashes, give you more energy and help you get to sleep.
- [04:08]
Anya Cain
For limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today. Content warning this episode contains discussion of suicide, murder and violence. So today on the cheat sheet, we're gonna be going all over the place, including a story that Kevin picked that's sort of a nationwide story nationwide. So we're going to Idaho, Missouri, Alabama and Ohio and nationwide, nationwide, we're taking it to the streets. We're doing it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet.
- [04:54]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [05:00]
Anya Cain
We're the murder sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Strikes and slime bags. Sam, to start out with, we're going to be talking about a really disturbing case out of Idaho. And no, it's not the University of Idaho murders. It's something else that happened. My sources for this were Fox 11 as well as the Associated Press and the Spokesman Review. All these places did some pretty great coverage on this situation. And before we get started, I wanted to kind of explain why we're going to be doing this in a specific kind of way. And that is just we're not going to name the person who did this crime. And the reason is because it seems to be within the framework of a mass shooting type situation. And there's been some research showing that by sort of lionizing these shooters through coverage and sort of picking apart their motive and whatnot, we're kind of perpetuating these types of crimes because then other losers essentially see it and say, well, I want attention. And that's a good way of getting it. So, you know, we're not going to name this person. And that's why it's just, it's just a mitigation factor. So I think, you know, anyways. So on Sunday, June 29, firefighters in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho responded to reports of a fire. They approached a 20 year old man living out of his car and asked him seemingly to move the car. And shortly after that, about 40 minutes later, these firefighters were pinned down by sniper fire from this 20 year old. And what the firefighters reported on sort of scanner feed was that they felt the fire had been set as a trap for them so that somebody could shoot at them. So what their perception was that this was not like an escalation, that he was annoyed that they were there, but it was that he specifically lured them in. So this prompted a very, very long standoff and siege. Law enforcement response. They disabled this person's vehicle that he was living out of. They just, you know, they kind of got rid of other vehicles in the area so he couldn't get away. At some point they were able to pinpoint his phone, saw that it stopped moving and were able to find him and found that he had died by suicide. And this was all in the sort of Canfield mountain area. This is a recreation area. So what ended up happening was I think, I believe 26 acres burned, no structures. I don't think we're at risk in this situation. I think it's been largely contained, but obviously, you know, because the sniper situation, the fire got more and more out of control because, you know, they couldn't fight it because they're having to fight this lunatic. So unfortunately, there were casualties other than the shooter. And those were 42 year old Frank Harwood, a battalion chief with the Kootenai County Fire and Rescue, as well as battalion chief John Morrison with the Coeur d' Alene Fire department. Harwood was 42. Morrison was 52. These men had been with their respective fire departments for years and years. Harwood was a veteran of the army National Guard who served in Iraq. He had two children. He was married. Morrison had worked as a paramedic as well. I believe he was also a father. He had served with the Coeur d' Alene fire department since 1996. And then in addition to that, David Hisdale, who is an engineer, a fire engineer with the Coeur d' Alene Fire Department, is in critical condition. He's had a number of surgeries so far, but he was also shot. You know, this is just such a cowardly and despicable act. It's just pathetic. I mean, you know, we have all the classic post mass shooting, you know, pieces where, you know, going to this loser's family and saying what happened and they're like, oh yeah, we're so surprised. And then you hear from like, other people who knew him, like, no, he was totally erratic and had all this rage and was always yelling at people. So it's like, yeah. What? I mean, it's not even clear why he was in Idaho. It seems like he may have gone there to work for his father's tree trimming business. But if he was homeless at the time and living out of his car, I mean, it would sort of indicate that didn't work out. So I don't know. I'm, I'm. I'm kind of like in certain instances, people just go wrong, right? People like, you know, you could have the best family in the world that's the most supportive and doing the most for you to try to get you help. And you could still just be a dirt bag or a slime bag and just blow it. So, you know, there's that possibility. There's also the possibility that, you know, you come from a dysfunctional, messy family that's, you know, either negligent or outright a disaster. And that kind of explains why somebody goes wrong. So you just never know. But I just, I'm struck by some of the quotes from this family of, like, he really liked firefighters, you know, like, okay, sure. I, you know, I, Again, I don't know why. I, it just, I don't know. It's. Some of it kind of hit me the wrong way where it's like, you know, they're like, there's these posts from them being like, he's doing so great in Idaho. Well, apparently not. I, I, I don't know. I just feel like you, you raise a child and you do have, like, a certain level of obligation to society to, like, not do such a bad job that something like this happens, I guess.
- [11:36]
Kevin Greenlee
All murder, of course, is horrible. All loss of life is horrible and terrible. But for one reason why this case hits me especially hard is. I don't know if I've mentioned it on the program or not, but I come from a family of firefighters, or more specifically, volunteer firefighters. My father spent many, many decades of his life actively serving with the local volunteer fire department. My grandfather was actually involved with founding that very department and serving on it for years. And as I was looking to check my memory, I found my grandfather is listed on a history online about this fire department. And it says that my grandfather or his wife would receive calls for fires and then would sound a fire alarm in their yard to alert the firefighters. And I wonder what their neighbors thought of that. Can you imagine?
- [12:39]
Anya Cain
No.
- [12:40]
Kevin Greenlee
So I did not know that, but. So I've spent many years of my life around the brave men and women who risked their lives to try to put out fires. And so many of those people obviously get killed in that pursuit trying to help others, and they recognize that risk when they accept the job. But for them to lose their lives in this way is just despicable.
- [13:11]
Anya Cain
It's just utterly cowardly. And again, let's not even think about the person who did this, because they don't matter at all. They don't matter. The reasons don't matter. Like, there's no political statement here. There's no seemingly terroristic angle. It's just a loser trying to go after people who are not losers, which sums up a lot of these kind of mass shooting situations. But I would say spare a thought for the Morrison family, for the Tisdale family, and for the Harwood family, because Tisdale was badly injured. Morrison and Harwood are dead. Those are the people who matter in this situation. All they were doing was trying to do their jobs, serve the community, and put out a fire. So the fact that they were killed or very badly injured over that is despicable. And really says something pretty horrible about, you know, the time we live in where something like that is happening. But anyways, yeah, that's what happened in Idaho. Let's go down south to Missouri.
- [14:14]
Kevin Greenlee
What's going on there?
- [14:15]
Anya Cain
Well, this is actually a revisiting of a case that we previously covered that I know a lot of our listeners are pretty interested in. So this comes from a listener request. So thank you so much to that listener who asked us to kind of follow up on this. And this is a situation where my, so my sources, I should say are People magazine, USA Today and Fox News. I also looked at a number of court filings associated with this situation. So we all probably remember in Kansas city in, on January 9, 2024. So not too long ago there was a really kind of horrifying situation out of Kansas City, Missouri. And that was when 37 year old Clayton McGeaney, 38 year old Ricky Johnson and 36 year old David Harrington were all found dead in their friend's backyard in this sort of suburban part of Kansas City. They were frozen. They'd been out there for days and they were all dead. And it was one of those cases where people were like, what on earth happened here? Like, how could this happen? People were immediately suspicious, understandably, because as it turned out, none of those men were the homeowner who lived there. The homeowner was a man named Jordan Willis, who is their friend. So he's alive and he's seemingly inside. People are like, how did you not know that your friends were all out there dead? People were wondering, could this be a murder? Like what's happening? Because to be clear, Willis was not the man who called police. Willis, in fact, you know, like what happened was one of the men's fiance basically had to like break in to the backyard to see this horrifying sight of these three men that she knew lying there dead. So horrible situation. And I remember at the time people were kind of clamoring for someone needs to get charged with this. And I think at the time you and I kind of had a conversation about that. Like it's not as easy as just snapping your fingers. Sometimes things are not murder or even, you know, like if everyone's just, you know, what, what the possibility that loomed large was that the men had died of some kind of drug overdose, which turned out to be true. What ended up happening was, I believe toxicology pointed to a mixture of cocaine and fentanyl. So they, they had fentanyl laced cocaine. We do a whole series on this called the fentanyl files and the fentanyl files, if you've listened to that, you know, fentanyl is highly, highly potent. It is highly dangerous. Getting the dosage wrong can kill you. You have people who've never, ever done drugs before. They take a pill that's little, you know, has a little bit of fentanyl, and they just die. Like, it's. It's not. It's not safe. It's. It's really dangerous. And one big problem is you can think you're getting cocaine, but then you're getting some fentanyl mixed in with it. Dealers are doing that, and it's killing people. So, you know, it came out that they had had cocaine and they. That had fentanyl in it. But again, that doesn't necessarily leave prosecutors with enough to file murder charges or necessarily assign blame. But now we're at the point where that's changed after an investigation. Willis, as well as a man by the name of Ivory Carson have been hit with a number of different charges in this case. Before we go on, though, I'm wondering, Kevin, can you talk a little bit about felony murder?
- [17:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Felony murder is basically a way to charge a person with the crime of murder, even if they did not directly cause that murder. In other words, you tend to think of murder as being like, oh, you shoot someone, you committed the murder. But what if you are committing an inherently dangerous felony, like stealing boxes of cereal with a gun, and you're doing that with a partner, and the partner is the one that pulls the trigger and kills someone? Under felony murder, if you're willingly committing this felony, you understand there are certain risks involved, and you accept those risks, and you're therefore held responsible for what your partner might do or for other events that happen during the commission of that felony.
- [18:40]
Anya Cain
Well, let's get into it. So we learned from the probable cause statement a bit of the investigation done in this situation. So it found that the. The PCA has a forensic. A doctor with the forensic medical firm of Kansas ruled that McGinnie, Harrington and Johnson all died to. Due to fentanyl and cocaine combined toxicity. And they learned from witnesses that when they would get together, they would drink alcohol, but they would also use cocaine. So this was basically what caused their deaths. And actually, a number of witnesses said that as true crime people, we all know that scary things can and do happen all the time, frankly, when you're least expecting it. Feeling safe at home is very important to Kevin and I. But in this day and age, I need more than just a good lock. I need a security company that makes it their mission to protect me and my family.
- [19:39]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [19:48]
Anya Cain
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- [20:08]
Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [20:57]
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- [21:57]
Anya Cain
And then what they looked at what police looked at and this is this is what came back on July 10th, 2024, there was an item, I. I imagine something regarding the cocaine that police found that had DNA evidence on it. And Jordan Willis was found to be a major contributor of that. And in addition to that, there was a data extraction on the cell phone of one of the dead men, Harrington, found that there were messages between Harrington, Johnson, McGinni, Willis, and Carson that indicated that there was a cocaine sale going on and Carson was their major supplier. So, yeah, that's. We're kind of seeing it pieced together so far. And then yet another item came back in December 12, 2024, with Carson being the major DNA profile contributor. So when police spoke to him on July 24, 2024, and February 5, 2025, Carson ad committed to selling cocaine to these folks prior to January 1, 2024. So it's all coming out that this seems to be sort of essentially the. The result of a drug deal that sort of went. Went wrong, unfortunately. So let's talk about the charges against Willis and Carson. The first one against Willis, count one is that he committed the class C felony of delivery of a controlled substance punish conviction. You know, and this was said to occur around January 7, 2024. And what he'd get punished for with that is the range would be in the Missouri Department of Corrections for a term of years not less than three and not to exceed 10. And there's also fines associated with it. For count two, this one's against Carson. This would have him also committing the class C felony of delivery of a controlled substance. Okay. And also, you know, it's important that they know it's cocaine. Like it wasn't just a mistake then. Both of them are facing the following counts. This is where it gets interesting. They're both accused of having committed the class A felony of murder in the second degree. And this is a. This obviously carries a much more significant sentence. But what they say is that. And These following count 3, 4, and 5 are each the same thing, but they're for each of the dead men. So it's McGinni and then Harrington and then Johnson. So what these have is that they were killed by an overdose. Combined fentanyl and cocaine toxicity as a result of the perpetration of the class C felonies of distribution of a controlled substance, et cetera, et cetera. So if they can get convicted and sentenced for this, they won't get parole until 85% of the sentence is served. And the range of punishment could be for, you know, not less than 10 years and not to exceed 30 years or life imprisonment. So, yeah, so this is pretty serious. Now, Willis's attorney, for his part, has given a statement to People magazine saying, quote, that both men. Well, actually, I'll just paraphrase he. So this is John Picarno. He says both men declined a plea deal for lesser charges and that the prosecutor responded by upgrading the charges. Quote, he said, quote, it wasn't much of a consideration. Jordan has maintained since day one he's not responsible for their deaths. He never even considered pleading guilty. So they're going to be fighting this, obviously. Obviously a pretty sad and disturbing situation all around the. The Platte county prosecuting attorney is Eric Zond. And then it seems like Colin S. Van Ostren is the associate assistant prosecuting attorney who's going to be doing a lot on this. And, yeah, we'll have to see where it goes. But this is not like the kind of classic murder case where someone pulls out a gun and kills somebody. But it's essentially saying you caused the deaths and because you were doing a felony that led to the deaths, you're guilty of murder. That's where felony murder comes in. Felony murder is controversial. I understand why. Personally, I think it's a very useful tool, and I think it can be very useful for assigning blame in cases that are a little bit more complicated. What do you think?
- [26:48]
Kevin Greenlee
I tend to agree. It's certainly something that can be misused, but in cases like this, I think it's appropriate and underscores the severity of loss of life.
- [27:00]
Anya Cain
You definitely don't want to see it misused. And it sounds like Willis's attorney is saying, yeah, it's being misused here, so we'll have to see what ends up happening with trial. My mind's not made up. I'm kind of willing to hear both sides, but I don't. I don't think it's. I think that cases like this where maybe there was no intent to kill, but there was fentanyl and the drugs is kind of what this is made for.
- [27:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Are we ready to head over to the great state of Alabama?
- [27:30]
Anya Cain
Yes, sir. Let's hop on the cane train.
- [27:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Get moving, get moving. Over to Alabama. Let's do it. And go those Alabama teams. I know one of our fellow podcasters is like a fan of the Alabama teams and you always say go and then the name of the team. And I don't know sports, but I'm rooting for those teams.
- [27:52]
Anya Cain
Isn't it like Roll Tide or something?
- [27:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Sure.
- [27:56]
Anya Cain
Wait, let me look that up. I don't want to Humiliate myself on this show.
- [27:59]
Kevin Greenlee
We do that every week.
- [28:00]
Anya Cain
Yes. Alabama Crimson is Roll Tide. I'm gonna look up Alabama Crimson. Who are their rivals? Who are their enemies? Oh, the Auburn Tigers.
- [28:10]
Kevin Greenlee
But we love everybody on this show.
- [28:12]
Anya Cain
We love everybody.
- [28:13]
Kevin Greenlee
So I hope, I wish nothing but success to Alabama and to Auburn.
- [28:19]
Anya Cain
Wow. I think you're digging yourself deeper in.
- [28:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Their own separate pursuits.
- [28:24]
Anya Cain
I think you're gonna be getting some angry emails from Brett soon.
- [28:27]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm doing my best over here.
- [28:31]
Anya Cain
The next cheat sheet will be like, we're very sorry.
- [28:34]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. I didn't even tell you this, Anya, but earlier, as I was driving home, I started listening to a podcast. It wasn't a crime podcast. It was a comedy podcast. And it began with, before the opening, the host comes on. The sound quality is bad. He's obviously recording this on his phone instead of in the studio. And it's an awkward apology for something from the previous episode. So this is what we'll be doing next week for this segment.
- [29:00]
Anya Cain
Mark your calendars, folks.
- [29:03]
Kevin Greenlee
So this case, my sources were an opinion from the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and also a news story from wsfa. And this is kind of a tough one. It involves a man named Michael Sokwell, who was many decades ago. He was convicted in a 1988 murder of Montgomery County Sheriff Deputy Isaiah Harris. And I will tell you frankly that it looks to me like he was guilty of that crime. But set that aside, because as we all know, in the judicial process, it is important not only the final result, but it is important how we get to that final result. And it is very important that the defendant in a trial receive a fair trial and be treated fairly. And so his conviction was recently overturned, and he's going to get a new trial. And it comes down to jury selection. Now, Anya, you've sat through jury selection. We've interviewed people about jury selection. That's the process. A whole bunch of people come in and the attorneys get to ask them questions. And then they can ask for certain people to be removed from the jury pool. And there are two categories of these so called strikes that you can use on prospective jurors. One of the strikes is for cause. What does that mean?
- [30:37]
Anya Cain
Oh, man. Okay. Well, the layperson reporter thought here. Isn't that essentially, like, you are connected to somebody in the case or you.
- [30:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Have, like, a strong opinion?
- [30:50]
Anya Cain
Strong. Like I. Oh, no, I definitely know this guy's guilty. And I'm not gonna come off that no matter what I hear.
- [30:56]
Kevin Greenlee
What if Anya's on trial for stealing Cereal. And someone who's a prospective juror says, heck, I listen to the podcast and she sucks. She admits to that every week. I'm definitely gonna vote guilty no matter what. You can strike that person for cause.
- [31:10]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Cause it's not gonna. That's not evidence. It's. It's not. It's probably not evidence, but I mean. Yeah.
- [31:18]
Kevin Greenlee
So you have basically an unlimited number of cause strikes. As long as the judge agrees. Yes, this is a good cause to strike this juror. Then the attorneys have a smaller number of so called peremptory. And a peremptory is the lawyers have much wider discretion to strike a juror. You don't have to have a good reason. You can just strike them for whatever. But there are some limits there. One of which is if, for instance, the defendant happens to be a black man or a black woman, or even if they're not, you don't really get to say, oh, this juror is black, I don't want him on the jury.
- [32:11]
Anya Cain
Right.
- [32:12]
Kevin Greenlee
And that applies also if the defendant is a white person. I don't want to get over my skis there. You can't strike people just because of their race.
- [32:21]
Anya Cain
Is it just race or is it also gender? Is it like anything that's just like this is who they are as a person?
- [32:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [32:29]
Anya Cain
I mean, I imagine it's mostly used with race, given the sort of shameful history in this country of like Jim Crow and black defendants having to face all white juries. Right. I'm imagining it's mostly coming into a racial context. I'm just curious, like, is it broader than that?
- [32:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. And it's mostly important for racial issues, especially, like if you happen to be a black person, maybe your experience with like law enforcement or just certain things may be different from that of a white person. You're entitled to face a jury of your peers. So you don't want people to be removed from the jury who might have that sort of experience which might help them understand where you're coming from. Does that make sense?
- [33:09]
Anya Cain
It does, but it also seems like there'd be an inherent problem here because if preemptory strikes are essentially kind of loosey goosey, whatever. Right. Like it's like the meme like, hey, my co counsel saw you across the well of the court and we hate your vibe. Get out of here. Like that. Like, like how do you tell that? You know, I imagine the numbers are going to be what's important here about, like, you keep on preemptory striking black prospective jurors. Versus because it would be hard to, like, say. Right.
- [33:43]
Kevin Greenlee
What you've just done, Ms. Kane, is you put your finger on a crucial issue. How can you tell? Is a prosecutor dismissing a juror because they are black or because they have a good reason? One way, which we will allude to later, is you can look. Does a person have a history of striking a disproportionately high number of black people? They have a history of that, and they're doing it in another case. You know, maybe that's a problem.
- [34:10]
Anya Cain
That might be a problem. Yeah. History. But. But here's a question. Do you need a good reason? Or, like, if I. If I. If I. Like, if I can. You know, we were in a. We were in. We were in jury selection voidir in Deli, and there was a person there saying that they were a psychic.
- [34:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Anya Cain
Right. So I imagine, like, I don't know, maybe one side would like that. Maybe one. But I. I would understand why there's like, okay, you don't. Like. No, get out of here. Like. Like, that's not. I don't know. Like, do you need a good reason or can you just get, like, a bad vibe from someone and strike them.
- [34:47]
Kevin Greenlee
If you get challenged? The relevant Supreme Court case is batson. And so if you get a Batson challenge as a prosecutor or someone you strike, you have to offer up a reason why you struck that juror that isn't related to race.
- [35:04]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Not like, I don't want black people on the jury because the defendant is black.
- [35:08]
Kevin Greenlee
And let's see that in practice in this case.
- [35:10]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [35:13]
Kevin Greenlee
In this case, the Prosecutor used over 50% of their strikes to strike blacks and in effect, struck 80% of All Blacks from the jury pool.
- [35:24]
Anya Cain
So that's what you're quoting there, from the actual case.
- [35:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And now what I'd like to do is let's read a little bit of the back and forth between the judge and a prospective juror. This is one of the jurors, happens to be a black person who ended up being excluded from the case. I'll be the court. Why don't you be the prospective juror?
- [35:46]
Anya Cain
Okay, let's do it.
- [35:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Have you heard or read from any source anything about these circumstances that we're here today on?
- [35:54]
Anya Cain
I've heard a little something.
- [35:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. Have you heard or read or from any other source, gained any information as to whether this defendant was guilty or not now?
- [36:05]
Anya Cain
I had heard something.
- [36:06]
Kevin Greenlee
You haven't.
- [36:07]
Anya Cain
I had heard something.
- [36:09]
Kevin Greenlee
What did you hear, and where was it from?
- [36:11]
Anya Cain
Oh, I just. It Was something in the newspaper or something?
- [36:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, what did you hear in the newspaper or read in the newspaper?
- [36:19]
Anya Cain
Well, I just, you know, just heard talk about what they heard in the newspaper or something like that. I didn't read it for myself.
- [36:25]
Kevin Greenlee
From somebody you heard?
- [36:27]
Anya Cain
Yes.
- [36:27]
Kevin Greenlee
When did you hear that?
- [36:28]
Anya Cain
It was a while back.
- [36:29]
Kevin Greenlee
About how long ago?
- [36:31]
Anya Cain
Several months ago.
- [36:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Several months ago, did you hear specifically about this defendant right here?
- [36:36]
Anya Cain
No.
- [36:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. Do you remember what you heard?
- [36:38]
Anya Cain
Not exactly.
- [36:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Can you remember it for me the best you can?
- [36:43]
Anya Cain
The only thing I recall is just, you know, listening at some of the guys, you know, that they said they had read about it, you know, the incident out on Troy highway, stuff like that, you know, what had happened and so forth. You know.
- [36:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. Do you feel like you'd be able to put aside whatever you heard some of the guys say about what they'd read and listened to the facts as they come to you in court and based on the facts and those alone make a fair, honest, conscientious, impartial decision on guilt and non guilt based on these facts in the law instructed by the court?
- [37:14]
Anya Cain
Yes, I can.
- [37:16]
Kevin Greenlee
So let's stop there. And then after that, there's a brief discussion between the judge and the juror about the death penalty. But I think we have the gist of it. That person was removed based on the peremptory challenge. And the prosecutor was later asked about that, and she said, that juror, according to my notes, is a Black male, approximately 23 years of age, which would put him very close to the same race, sex and age of the defendant.
- [37:48]
Anya Cain
Oh, what.
- [37:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Let me go on. He had said to the court that he heard a little something. The court questioned him further, and he finally said, well, I heard it from the paper or something. The court questioned him further. He was very vague and unclear in his answer. The court asked him more about it and he said, well, some people were talking about it. I didn't actually read it. He could not remember what had been said, nor anything further about those. End quote. So she starts out by basically saying, this is a person who is same race, age and gender as the defendant. So the question is, Anya, is she saying that is a descriptor or is she saying that is one of the reasons why she excluded him?
- [38:36]
Anya Cain
That set off a huge red flag for me personally. Because if it's a descriptor, why are you saying, oh, it's very. It's like almost too similar to the defendant?
- [38:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, that's really.
- [38:50]
Anya Cain
That to me, if. If it. If she had just listed. Okay, He's. He's black. He's about in his early 20s. Okay. Like you maybe I could understand being concerned about that. But that other thing really concerns me.
- [39:04]
Kevin Greenlee
That, that really. Yeah, that's very. That's very troubling. That. That's very, very troubling. And it gets worse when, again, we've mentioned that about 80% of the black people on this jury were removed. And also what I haven't mentioned is that there were a couple of white people who also said, well, yeah, I heard about this case, and that wasn't a problem for this prosecutor and those white people. She did not strike. So we're in a situation where we can't get into this prosecutor's head. We can't read what's in this prosecutor's heart. We just can look at things like, well, the prosecutor is a female. Yeah. She made this comment. She struck a lot of black people in this trial. There's other trials where she seems to have a history of striking a lot of black people from the jury. It certainly is troubling and raises. As I said, I believe this man is guilty. I don't believe he got a fair trial if people were struck from his jury just because of the color of their skin.
- [40:16]
Anya Cain
I agree. Yeah. I mean, that's enough. I. I haven't looked at the case like you have, so I don't have an opinion on guilt or innocence, but I, I, you know, based on that alone, that's pretty concerning. And it's. It's just, you know, it's. It sucks when stuff like this happens because it's just. It's not. It's unfair. It's not. This is not how it's supposed to be.
- [40:37]
Kevin Greenlee
It's not fair to the defendant. It's not fair to people who knew and loved the victim.
- [40:43]
Anya Cain
Yeah, it's a. It's very unfortunate.
- [40:46]
Kevin Greenlee
So he is going to get a new trap.
- [40:49]
Anya Cain
Well, there you go.
- [40:52]
Kevin Greenlee
And that's that.
- [40:54]
Anya Cain
So we're going north again to Ohio.
- [40:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Our neighbor state of Ohio, the Buckeye. Go Buckeyes. Is that.
- [41:01]
Anya Cain
Why are you trying to. Why are you trying to do this to us? Why are you trying to get more controversies? I don't know who the teams are. You're looking to me for answers, and I'm not. I'm pretty sure it's a Buckeye State.
- [41:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Isn't there, like, Ohio State? The Ohio State Buckeyes with their. Their teams?
- [41:19]
Anya Cain
Why are you asking me, sir? This is not something I can tell you. No, it's the Buckeye State. I know. They're our neighbor to the east. I know. I very, very much enjoy going to Cincinnati time or two.
- [41:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [41:32]
Anya Cain
So my sources for this are the Norwalk Reflection.
- [41:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Go, Go Reds. That's not your ads.
- [41:39]
Anya Cain
Can you just get off your. Like, why are you trying to be a jock all of a sudden? What is going on with you?
- [41:44]
Kevin Greenlee
It's just who I am.
- [41:48]
Anya Cain
So my sources for this is the Norwalk Reflector and the Sandusky Register. This is a really interesting case, Kevin, because it involves a podcaster, and it's a hot mess. And let me just say, stuff like this always makes me deeply embarrassed to be in this business. Just kind of like, you know what I mean? I feel like we've been really fortunate to cultivate a really smart and cool audience where we're like, I'm always impressed when you guys reach out to me because you're, like, so on the ball with your questions, or, oh, I have this background as a lawyer. And you're like, wow, this is really cool. Why the heck are you listening to us? But we appreciate it. But when I see stuff like this, it's just like, oh, my God, we exist. Our. The majority. Like, I. We. We're fortunate to have cultivated some really wonderful friends in podcasting who I totally respect. And I'm like, just, like, so grateful to have in this space with us. But then when you look beyond that, sometimes I feel like the vast majority of people are just, like, purely out for clicks or they're complete clowns. So it's, you know, it's. It's another day of just sheer embarrassment for this entire community. But this is an Erie county, and this is a woman named Ashley Ford, whose, I guess, show is allegedly with Ashley Ford. She's 40, and she was recently convicted in a bench trial of a number of situations owing to what essentially amounted to threats against people. So she was charged with extortion, two counts of extortion and falsification, and telecommunication fraud. And, you know, there were a number of social media posts that she made. I guess she. She immersed herself in the case of the disappearance of Amanda Dean. There is a person who was charged with that who's not gotten to trial yet, even though that was all the way back in 2017. I'm not super familiar with any of the circumstances around this, but Ford took it upon herself to appoint herself some sort of advocate or activist, and then seemingly started engaging in some pretty offensive behavior. You know, threatening the victim's sister, threatening a number of, like, local officials and a Judge and her argument in this bench trial was that it was essentially First Amendment right. One thing that's interesting is that apparently she made a bunch of really over the top accusations against people that I'm not going to repeat here because I just, you know, like, no, but her attorney was arguing in this situation that like, yes, she got that wrong, but she thought it was true. And I guess, like, what are your thoughts on that, Kevin? When it comes to sort of like some of this bad behavior, like, where is the kind of like, well, I had good intentions versus like, well, you should have done your due diligence or used your brain sort of argument on this?
- [44:47]
Kevin Greenlee
I think the end result matters and you need to be really careful when you are playing with people's lives and when you make huge charges against everybody in sight and maybe a few of them happen to have some truth to them, it's not very helpful to the listener because the listener has no way to sort out the little bit of truth in all of the nonsense you're putting out there.
- [45:12]
Anya Cain
I just find it funny that basically in trial their, their strategy was like, basically like, oh yeah, she's totally full of it. But she, but she believed like, I don't know, like, people like this I just think are like lower than anything. I, I just, you know, it's just inserting yourself into a K. And like her argument was like, oh, I'm doing it out of the, Let me find this quote that she actually said. I just like couldn't believe the, like, this is it. So they talked about how, you know, she really believed in the credibility of her own work, which she shouldn't have. I mean like, basically like look in the mirror and look at what you're doing and look if it's at all similar to anything that anybody credible is doing and if it's not, then shut up. They said that her podcast was posted on Facebook and then later moved to a, quote, subscription based platform. Patreon and Ford apparently said, quote, I don't get paid to do this. I donate all of my own time to it. I took the Amanda Dean case out of the kindness of my heart, end quote. This is the kind of like, kind of self aggrandizing nonsense I see from a lot of people in true crime, especially people like, you know, who are kind of mostly just doing it to get attention and to feel important in their lives. And it's like no one wants your kindness because your kindness involves threatening people and being insane. So you know, like, maybe go volunteer like an animal shelter. Or something that would be, something that would be kind like, I don't know, you know, like also, I don't know what her Patreon tiers are, but you know, if you're on a, if you're on Patreon, you're, you're getting money most likely because that's, it's a subscription based service. So I don't know, maybe she was giving it away for free on Patreon. That seems kind of unlikely to me, but I don't know. I tried to click on her Patreon and I couldn't really tell. It was, it was a lot. But yeah, she's, she's trying to kind of get this, I think, overturned. It looks like she's not going to be sentenced until July 16, so there's going to be some time. In a bizarre twist, she's seemingly being represented by an attorney who previously represented Amanda Dean's family, Peter Patakos, and he filed on her behalf a motion seeking to have her acquitted even though she was found guilty on May 22. So what, how does that work, do you know?
- [47:43]
Kevin Greenlee
I'll top my head now, that's kind of weird.
- [47:46]
Anya Cain
But what Patagos previously did was send forward a cease and desist letter because she was harassing the Amanda Dean's family and said, this is a 2023 letter, so not that long ago said in this letter to her, quote, one may readily infer that you have prioritized your interest in attracting attention to yourself, listeners to your podcast page views, to your web pages, etc, over the performance of any fair, truthful and effective advocacy on Amanda's behalf. End quote. That's pretty bizarre. Seems kind of like a natural conflict of interest to me. But as we all know, or as at least I think I know, so tell me if I'm wrong. Conflict of interest, as long as it's waived, is not a big deal.
- [48:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, that's true, gentleman.
- [48:28]
Anya Cain
So if she, he's like, hey, by the way, I'm the same guy who like sent you a cease and desist letter saying your podcast sucked and that you didn't know what you're talking about. And she's like, oh, cool, no worries. Yeah, basically they're fine. I don't know, I mean, like, what do you make of this? It's just like, it's when I see stuff like this, I just see like the like the low effort, low quality kind of side of true crime and I just get really disillusioned.
- [48:54]
Kevin Greenlee
You should start a hashtag. Not all podcasters.
- [49:00]
Anya Cain
I feel like. I feel, like, deeply, like, again, I'm proud of the work we do. I really am. And I'm proud of the work some of our peers do. I like. I love. I love some of it. And I love our listeners. I love our listeners. I'm probably most proud of them because you guys are always emailing us, and then you're like, oh, by the way, I'm, like, really experienced and cool. And I'm like, oh, thanks for listening. But. But at the same time, like, there just seems to be this, like, side to true crime that just attracts them, just the most mediocre people in the world. And it. They just. And they start, like, basically seeing themselves as, like, a hero. I'm like, I'm gonna solve the case. The victim's family's against me, so I'll throw them under the bus and I'll do this. And it's like, you know, like, who's. Who's giving this person time or attention? Like, that's just what. Like. Like there needs to be, like, a weird intervention in True Crime of, like, you know, let's get some of these people out of here. You know, like, we need, like, back in the day in medicine, in the 1800s, people were doing whatever. They were cutting your limbs off, you know, anything was happening. And medicine professionalized journalism, professionalized podcasting, true crime podcasting. I think there needs to be a level of professionalization that comes with this. We need to grow up as a community, and that means maligning people and kind of pushing them out who are not fitting those basic standards of decency and ethics, because this ain't it. And listen, when I see something like this, I get a little worried. I'm like, well, I want the First Amendment to be protected. I want free speech to be protected. I don't want people being, you know, penalized for speech, because I don't think that leads anywhere good. Even if I don't like the speech, I want people to. I want that basic constitutional right to be protected. But at the same time, it's like, when I see stuff like this and I just see, like, the level of chicanery that's going on here, it's very hard to sympathize.
- [50:54]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree. Should we move on?
- [50:55]
Anya Cain
Yes. Let's go nationwide.
- [50:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Go nationwide teams. I just want everybody to do well. Is that so wrong?
- [51:06]
Anya Cain
You're rooting for everybody.
- [51:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. That way, I'm everybody's pal, you're everybody's friend. These rivalries, where do they get us in the end?
- [51:16]
Anya Cain
Are you, like, running for mayor of something?
- [51:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Maybe mayor of true crime.
- [51:22]
Anya Cain
Mayor of true crime. Yeah. I vote for you. I'll be your, like, I'll be your kind of evil power behind the throne.
- [51:28]
Kevin Greenlee
We were talking about Merrimac cheese last week. Is that what we see from me.
- [51:32]
Anya Cain
I don't want you to be.
- [51:33]
Kevin Greenlee
My head will become like, just a big fish sandwich. That may happen anyway.
- [51:38]
Anya Cain
That's so disturbing. Why do you say these things? Don't become Mayor McCheese. Come on. Hey.
- [51:45]
Kevin Greenlee
You're gonna crush my dreams.
- [51:47]
Anya Cain
Yes, I'm gonna crush that dream.
- [51:50]
Kevin Greenlee
That's all I've ever wanted.
- [51:52]
Anya Cain
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [51:54]
Kevin Greenlee
My source is npr. This is a story I don't want to go into too much detail, but I just wanted to mention. Certainly we certainly True crime. Certainly all of you. We all talk a lot about crime and murder. And it is important to know that even though we talk about it a lot, murder rates are actually sharply declining in this country.
- [52:19]
Anya Cain
Yay.
- [52:20]
Kevin Greenlee
In Detroit, the number of homicides is at its lowest point since 1965.
- [52:27]
Anya Cain
Wow.
- [52:29]
Kevin Greenlee
And there's lots of speculations about possible reasons for all this decline. I don't know what I think, but I just think it's worth noting those of us who are saturated in discussion of crime and murders and all these terrible things, the rates are going down.
- [52:48]
Anya Cain
Do they have any theories about why that is?
- [52:52]
Kevin Greenlee
They have theories. The people in Detroit think it's more effective policing. Some academics think that Covid caused a spike in crime because people didn't have anything to do, and now we're seeing the end results. Now that people have things to do, maybe they're committing less crimes. But that wouldn't explain why crime, or rather, why murder in Detroit is at its lowest point since before I was born.
- [53:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that's pretty remarkable. I mean, like, I hate to. Like, is it because a lot of people moved out of Detroit and, like, it's, like, less populated now?
- [53:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Like, I don't think so.
- [53:26]
Anya Cain
No, it's like. So maybe. I don't know. Good for them, you know, because Detroit's always been kind of, like, characterized or maligned as sort of a violent city. So the fact that they're down to pre, like, 1965, that's a long time ago. So.
- [53:39]
Kevin Greenlee
And we're citing Detroit, but this is nationwide.
- [53:41]
Anya Cain
Yeah. I mean, but I just want to give. I mean, Detroit gets a lot of flack, so, like, kudos to them. Props to them.
- [53:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Go Tigers.
- [53:50]
Anya Cain
I. You know, I. I just. Yeah. I mean, I. I think it really is important to remember that true crime is not. True crime is us picking really interesting murder stories to tell you. But I think it makes a lot of people feel, like, unsafe. And generally crime stats are down. That doesn't mean that there isn't room to. For improvement at all times. Right. You know, but it. It's not. We're not in the crime wave days of the 1980s anymore.
- [54:19]
Kevin Greenlee
That's right.
- [54:19]
Anya Cain
You're looking at me very. What?
- [54:22]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm just looking at you. Am I allowed to do that? You're my wife. I'm allowed to admire the beautiful woman that is Anya Kane Greenleaf.
- [54:31]
Anya Cain
My hot insights. It's not the 1980s anymore.
- [54:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Any insight you have is, oh, he's so cute.
- [54:41]
Anya Cain
Well, you know, I'm. I'm glad to hear that. I know sometimes people say, like, oh, well, those hot. Like, you know, not everyone participates in the data sharing and whatnot, but I think, like, crime is down. And in a lot of instances, crime has been down for a while. It's not really new. But, you know, so.
- [55:01]
Kevin Greenlee
So you're, like, criticizing me because the story you picked, Kevin, it's old news.
- [55:05]
Anya Cain
No, no, no. I mean. But. But you're right.
- [55:07]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm just having fun.
- [55:08]
Anya Cain
No, you. You're right in the sense that it. It came up around Covid, and then now it's back down. So hopefully it stays down and keeps going down.
- [55:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Right. It's great news.
- [55:18]
Anya Cain
Yeah. So are we. Are we done with your nationwide taking it to the streets?
- [55:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, we're done with my nationwide taking it to the streets.
- [55:26]
Anya Cain
Good. Well, what else do we have to say? I don't know. We have a book coming out in August.
- [55:32]
Kevin Greenlee
We have a book. Buy it. We have T shirts. Buy them. Go into CrimeCon.
- [55:36]
Anya Cain
We should tell. Oh, my gosh. That's okay. Let's talk about the details of some of that. We have.
- [55:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Give us the deets.
- [55:43]
Anya Cain
I'll give you the deets. We have murdersheetshop.com. that's our. That's our kind of first iteration of.
- [55:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Our T shirt shop, which is one design. We have them in our closet. We mail them out to you.
- [55:55]
Anya Cain
Yes. And we. And we're kind of running low on certain sizes now, so that's why we expanded partnering with dashery.com. so this is the murder sheet. Dot dashery dot com. So t h e M U R D E R S H E E T dot D A S H E R Y dot com. Sorry for forgetting how to spell words in the middle of that, but you know, hopefully you got that. We'll include a link in our show notes too. It's got a number of, there's a crew neck sweater, a breakfast heist T shirt that they designed. There's a murder sheet mug and there's a murder sheep people T shirt. And what I love about this T shirt is it actually comes in several different colors but it has the kind of classic murder sheet people design and it's got, it's much more inclusive sizing. That's another reason why we partner with Dashery. We wanted people to have the size that they want and so this is a great way of getting that. So please check it out if you're looking.
- [56:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Would it be like a true crime swine T shirt in the offing? What about a fish sandwich shirt?
- [56:52]
Anya Cain
I would love to do more designs and maybe even work with some of our listeners on, on like ideas that could be fun. So I think we, this is a place where we can kind of really get creative and for, I know some.
- [57:00]
Kevin Greenlee
People rap sounds to me like the sky's the limit.
- [57:05]
Anya Cain
Are you quite, are you quite finished? No one can see this, but Kevin's turning very red. So people were asking what this is made of and it's 100% combed ring spun cotton. So it's a graphic T shirt. And yeah, this is going to be super, super fun. Check it out. As for the book, wherever you buy your books, so call up your local bookstore, order it through them or go to Amazon or go to bookshop.org.
- [57:39]
Kevin Greenlee
It'S my understanding is the book is also made of 100% ring spun cotton. Is that correct or am I just confused? Did I misread the email?
- [57:48]
Anya Cain
I think you misread some emails. I don't think you understand, Kevin. Frankly I'm worried for you. And yeah, we're gonna be doing a lot of events around the book signing. Speaking of, and just keep in mind if you have a book club and you guys pick murder, not murder, and you pick shadow of the bridge or book for your book club, we'll come in and zoom in with them and chat with them. So like if you have an event in mind that you want us to come to, let us know. I can't promise we'll be able to do everything because like, you know, kind of like we're gonna have to make it work ourselves. But, but we'll do our best. But we'll do our best and we can, we hope we can work something out with you. So just shoot us an email murder sheet at Gmail dot com, if you're interested. If you're a creator and you listen to us and you want us to have it on to, like, ask us, hey, what's going on with that about the book? Then, I mean, hopefully you'll ask better questions. Let's be honest. But, you know, again, email us. We can. We'd love to talk with people. This is. I feel like the story of what happened to Libby and Abby in Delphi, Indiana, is a really important one. It's very near and dear to our hearts, and we want to tell it because I think it's important that people understand. So. Yeah. Anything else to add, Kevin?
- [58:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Move on to Crime Con.
- [58:59]
Anya Cain
Oh, I almost forgot. So we're going to Crime Con this year. We're super excited. We're gonna meet you guys. And if you guys are going, if you're kind of on the fence about going, maybe I can offer you something that.
- [59:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, a little.
- [59:14]
Anya Cain
Little bribe. That sounded really bad.
- [59:18]
Kevin Greenlee
It sounded a little bit unethical.
- [59:20]
Anya Cain
Now I'm going out and.
- [59:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, you've been listening to some of those unethical podcasts.
- [59:25]
Anya Cain
Ashley Ford corrupted me. Let's see. So if you use code murder sheet, you can get 10 off a standard badge with troop with a crime con. So that would.
- [59:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Now that's a deal.
- [59:39]
Anya Cain
What are you doing over there? You seeing all these weird sales cliches? First you're a jock, now you're like a little commercial man.
- [59:47]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm everyman.
- [59:48]
Anya Cain
You're an everyman. Is that what you think? That's what you think about yourself. So code murder sheet. M U R D E R S H E E T. I got it right that time and, you know, like, sign up and we want to see you there and come say hi to us. And even if you don't want to buy a T shirt or get a book signed, you can still say hi.
- [60:07]
Kevin Greenlee
You had a Dane to allow that.
- [60:12]
Anya Cain
That's the same. Move along, sir. No, we like to meet our listeners, so it will be fun. And, you know, we just appreciate all of you guys for listening and taking the time. It really means a lot to us.
- [60:24]
Kevin Greenlee
And if you're familiar with Denver, let us know where the best fish places are.
- [60:29]
Anya Cain
Yes. Or, you know, anything else as well.
- [60:33]
Kevin Greenlee
And Mile High comic book stores. Right? That's where you wanted to go to?
- [60:37]
Anya Cain
Is that where I wanted to go to?
- [60:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [60:39]
Anya Cain
Sure.
- [60:43]
Kevin Greenlee
And I hope this weekend, if you follow sports, I hope all your sports teams do well and we'll be cheering them on alongside you.
- [60:51]
Anya Cain
What are you doing. I don't go sports teams. I didn't know he was gonna do this. Just for the record, I don't know what's going on.
- [61:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Hit the button. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [61:22]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [61:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [61:57]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.
- [62:39]
Kevin Greenlee
So it's really reduced your cravings.
- [62:41]
Anya Cain
Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings sometimes. I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their Hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses, and I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it's gonna reduce your hot flashes. You'll have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order@happy mammoth.com. just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today.
- [63:36]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.
- [63:56]
Anya Cain
Yes.
- [63:56]
Kevin Greenlee
And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was SimpliSafe.
- [64:11]
Anya Cain
SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with SimpliSafe, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard outdoor protection, that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [65:35]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, Anya, can I ask you something?
- [65:37]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [65:37]
Kevin Greenlee
I got a problem here. We're going to be going out to dinner tonight with our friends and we're going to have to split the bill. How on earth can we manage to do that in a convenient, technology friendly fashion? That I won't mess up?
- [65:50]
Anya Cain
Trial by combat. No. What about Cash App?
- [65:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Cash App? Why? That's one of our sponsors.
- [65:59]
Anya Cain
No, but seriously, this is one of those things. Whenever anyone's asking us to do any sort of technological thing, we're immediately like, oh, geez, this is going to be a whole incident. This. You did it. You didn't even need my help. You just did it. We didn't have to put our heads together and figure anything out. You set it up. It was super easy. It's been so easy to use. The convenience is unbeatable in my opinion. In terms of other, I mean, I will say one competitor of theirs we used once when we were setting up our T shirt business. Never again. I'm in a blood feud with that company now. They acted like we sold too many T shirts, which we were trying to do, and that we were somehow suspect. And then they kicked us off their platform and it was a whole mess. And it. We like our Money Got Frozen. Cash App has been the opposite of that. It's been a breeze, it's been a dream to work with them and it's been just so convenient. And I would really encourage people to get in on this because you're missing out if you're not using Cash App. This is just so convenient. For a limited time, only new Cash App users can use our exclusive code to earn some additional cash. For real? There's no catch. Just download Cash App and sign up. Use our exclusive referral code msheet in your profile. Send $5 to a friend within 14 days and you'll get $10 dropped right into your account. Terms apply. That's money. That's Cash App.