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- [00:00]
A
If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by. Grainger are the ones who get it done. If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:01]
B
I'm Anya, and today we're going to be doing a cheat sheet with a range of cases from Idaho to the United Kingdom. So, yeah, today we're doing that. Oh, and I forgot the content.
- [01:14]
C
Go ahead and do it now.
- [01:15]
B
Content.
- [01:15]
C
We're informal here.
- [01:16]
B
Yeah, that's a cheat sheet for you. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of rape and murder, including the murder or homicide of two little girls. So sad situation. So today we're going to the United Kingdom, Ohio. And you don't feel like the need to write down where you're going on the list so I can read it? But I know Idaho is one of your things.
- [01:39]
C
Idaho is one of mine.
- [01:40]
B
Where's the other one?
- [01:42]
C
The Empire State of the south to Georgia. Georgia.
- [01:46]
B
Wow. Sad that I know that now.
- [01:50]
C
See, it's my position. My role in life is to educate you on finer things.
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B
Are you kidding me?
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C
Are you Empire State of the South?
- [02:00]
B
All right, let's move on, I guess. And any witty remarks on any of this? Any of your typical difficult.
- [02:08]
C
No, I'm always very, very professional.
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B
Very professional.
- [02:11]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [02:12]
B
Interesting. Play the tape. Roll the tape.
- [02:17]
C
Yeah, yeah. I reached out to a potential guest earlier, and then after I reached out, they said, oh, I listened to one of your cheat sheets.
- [02:23]
B
Oh, no, no, no, no.
- [02:25]
C
Be the last video from you, sir.
- [02:28]
B
I hate that. Guys, if you're listening right now and you're thinking about whether you're going to go on the show, it's normally not like this. Okay. It's normally a lot more locked in professional, but that's not the first time that's happened. I feel like everybody jumps into the cheat sheets and is probably like, that's like trying to jump on a moving bus. People are just, what is this? What is going on? Who are these people? How dare they?
- [02:51]
C
And before we get started, your first case, you've made the cane train go, I think, via the Chunnel to the UK and so I'm going to challenge you to do that UK story with your British accent.
- [03:06]
B
No, I'm not doing a British accent. Now, what Kevin's talking about. Do you want me to share what you're referencing? Please do so, because I'm. I don't know, something's wrong with me. I'm just a weird person. Off putting person, some might say. We went out last night and Indiana was covered in a dark and heavy fog, and we went out for Nicholas's night walks. And for some reason, I decided to start doing a Cockney accent and talking about Jack the Ripper. So that's what Kevin has to enjoy, having me as a wife. That's what. That's what life with me is like. And so I'm not going to do my terrible, you know, Dick Van Dyke s British accent on the cheat sheet. We have too many listeners in the United Kingdom for me to get away with that. They would be appalled. They would be angry. I don't want to start a fight with the UK and I'm just, you know, I'm not. I'm not looking for that. So I will decline. But that is, I. I feel like, you know, I do have some responsibility for you saying that. I'm not going to. I'm not going to push back on that one.
- [04:11]
C
And before we move on to say, if you're curious as to what Anya's Cockney accent sounds like, there's an episode of our sister podcast Mystery to me where she does it extensively. It's the Perry Mason episode where he has an evil twin.
- [04:27]
B
Yes. Thank you for putting me on blast in front of the whole audience. But the good news is, the good news is that according to the numbers, I've run the numbers. I've crunched the numbers according to the numbers. Murder sheet listeners are allergic to mystery to me. No one's gonna check this out, no one's gonna look. And I will survive another day without alienating our UK audience. Anyways, thank you all for this consideration. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:58]
C
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [05:04]
B
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Suits and suitcases. It. So this was a listener request from the United Kingdom. And thank you so much to this listener for requesting it. I think they sent in an email a couple months ago, so sorry to get to it a bit later, but I think I really appreciate this person so sort of filling us in on this situation. In addition to that, I would just say, like, if anyone ever wants to request a cheat sheet, just best to do that via email because I can keep track of it better. Sometimes people send us stuff on like Instagram and Facebook and I just would prefer email just because then I could keep it. It's a good way to kind of plug in a cheat sheet to the inbox and sort of see what pops up. So that's usually how I work. So if you want that.
- [06:33]
C
And actually if there's ever any time you want to keep a secret from Anya, the best way to do it is, I've discovered, is to put it in a message and send it via Instagram. Yeah, I can put like Anya's birthday gift, her Christmas gift, send it in Instagram message. She'll never know it.
- [06:51]
B
I try to be responsive, but it just makes the workflow easier for me. So. And I'm the one. Kevin's doing his own thing. Okay. We've probably all kind of. There's a bit of subtle vibe here. I. The people pleasing woman. I'm trying to do all listener requests. Kevin's kind of off frolicking, chasing his own proverbial butterflies. So you know that just giving you
- [07:12]
C
a sense, most of the email that comes in for whatever reason is addressed to you. So I think people just assume that
- [07:17]
B
I get annoyed when sometimes you're actually the one responding. And they're like, hi, Anya. And it's like, what? But the worst ones are the ones who are like, hey, Kevin, what's up? It's like, okay, do we really think Kevin is responding to this? Come on, let's think of. Let's think about this for a second.
- [07:31]
C
I respond to some of the emails.
- [07:32]
B
I respond to the most of the emails and most of the listeners correspondence is with me. I think you would, you would concede
- [07:40]
C
this, sir, because you're very quick about it. By the time I'll look at the emails. Ah, yes. I'll ponder how to respond to this and Then by the time I come up with an insightful response, you've already written something.
- [07:54]
B
Five years later, still pondering. So anyway, so this case is horrible on like two specific awful levels. One, the crime and then to the fallout from the crime. And it's just kind of highlights something pretty disturbing. So this is a case where, you know, like it just so many people have been harmed by this. So let's get into it. This is a case involving a killer that the press, the united, the press in the UK dubbed the Mersey Ripper, the Beast of Birkenhead, the Wolf Man. And for many, many years the public and police believed that they got this person. But unfortunately, recent events have revealed that almost 40 years later, this person is still out there and they don't know who it is. So let's go back to August 2, 1986. 21 year old Diane Sindel is working that night at a pub at the Wellington Hotel pub in Bevington. And she's saving up money for her wedding. She's engaged, she's gonna get married. She's a young beautiful woman doing this. And she drives home that night in her blue Fiat van, but unfortunately she ran out of fuel and the car kind of breaks down as a result. She's last seen walking down the road in Birkenhead between midnight and 2 and 12:20am and she never makes it home. Now witnesses between midnight and 2am reportedly hear screaming. They see and hear a man and a woman arguing. They presumably think it's, you know, just a domestic dispute. But unfortunately it seems like it was far more sinister than that because 12 hours after she was last seen approximately, Diane's body was found in an alley, alleyway in Birkenhead off of Burrow Road. She had been viciously attacked. Like this is. I read in the New in some of the articles about this and my primary source for this was the Mirror. They did kind of a retrospective article on it, but they described, you know, almost like people who were investigating this almost said it was like a traffic accident in terms of how horrible and gruesome her injuries were. And, you know, you can skip ahead if you don't want to hear about that, but I will, I will share. So she was half nude. She had been stabbed in the chest and in her genitals. Her breasts had been mutilated. She had been raped. She had suffered extreme blunt force trauma to the head and face, leaving her with. That's ultimately what she died from. Investigators believed that she actually did not die immediately, but ultimately succumbed to a brain hemorrhage from the beating. And so this is a horrible, horrible case. You can imagine that people were scared, people were up in arms that this happened to this young woman, and it was a really big deal. About two weeks after the murder, police also discovered, or, you know, people discovered her burned clothing. Remains of her burned clothing were found in Bidston Hill. So those are some of the clues. Now this. This man named Peter Sullivan comes up as a suspect. This guy was an unemployed young man from Birkenhead. He was ultimately described as having learning disabilities or even sort of maybe reading between the lines, maybe cognitive impairment, intellectual disability, something within that family. In other words, someone who might be more vulnerable as a result, whatever you want to call it, you know, someone who might be having some trouble comprehending at certain points. So this man was arrested September 23rd, 1986. Given the, you know, the murder happened August 2nd pretty quick, right? I mean, that's like a. Almost two months later. So they get this guy, and the evidence against him seems to be primarily in the beginning that he gave conflicting statements about where he was on August 1st and August 2nd. And so that's what, you know, police are going on initially. So this. I'll kind of describe it in one way, and then we'll go back and kind of describe the other side. So police say that he confessed to them, and then he confessed again. And they ultimately said that they thought that he had gotten into some kind of, like, drunken spiral and then, like, lost a game of darts and went out and killed Diane in a rage. So they had that, and then they had what they felt was forensic evidence at the time. They said that bite marks on Diane's body matched Sullivan's bite, and he was convicted and sentenced to life. Okay, let's back up. So we know at this point that bite marks are not considered a reliable. They're not a fingerprint. Okay. They're not like, a reliable one off way to piece of evidence. That narrows it down to one person. Is that. Is that all fair to say?
- [13:00]
C
That's fair to say.
- [13:00]
B
And that was. That's now considered junk science. It wasn't at the time, so I could understand why the jury made that. But nowadays, with the benefit of more knowledge, we can say bite marks are. Are. Are a problem. Now, bite marks were used in the Ted Bundy case. Like, I don't think that guy was innocent, but, you know, when I'm seeing bite marks being kind of the. The thing that may have cinched it, when I'm seeing bite Marks being so, you know, widely used in this situation, that's a problem for me. In addition, the confessions were not as clean as you would want. So he supposedly gave an initial confession that, unlike most of his other discussions with police, was not recorded. That's a problem.
- [13:47]
C
That's a problem.
- [13:48]
B
That's a big problem. Now, listen, stuff happens. People lose tape, whatever. But again, in the context of this situation, it's a problem. Then he confesses again, and then when he gets legal representation, he immediately recants again. People do that. That doesn't mean they're innocent. But when you have a guy who may have some impairments, may have some issues, and, you know, based on the law, perhaps needs more support or another adult there with him, and police don't provide that, then that's, again, a problem. So you're having some of the ingredients of what you often see with wrongful confessions, which do happen. People think, why would anyone confess to something they didn't do? When you have someone who might be more vulnerable in this case, possibly due to learning disabilities or something. Even more than that, when you have police interrogating someone, and it's. It's like a kind of a hostile situation. He accused the police of, like, beating him in the cell. Again, I don't. Without knowing, but again, that's a concerning allegation. Um, and then when you're having the initial one not recorded. And what's more, apparently when he was. You know, he claims that when he was, like, asked to say, okay, where did. Where were Diane's clothes found? He pointed to the wr spot, and they were almost, like, trying to correct him. So it's like they're trying to make him fit, potentially. That, plus the bite marks are a problem. But he was still convicted. But in 2021, they found that they had enough technology to retest the semen samples collected from the crime scene. And these were not a match to Sullivan. And for me, that is what truly cinches it, because if his. There's certain crimes where the DNA would not sway me. And I'm gonna say that, like, if it's like, oh, the DNA found on the victim's shoes don't match. Who cares? Who cares? They might have stepped in, whatever, you know, like, I don't care about that. But in this case, semen at the site of a rape, a rape murder, I think that that's a pretty good indication that that is your suspect. Enough with overcomplicating your wardrobe. Stop buying trendy, cheap stuff that doesn't last. Curate your style with high quality pieces that you can mix and match. Our wonderful sponsor Quince can help you out with that.
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C
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B
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B
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C
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- [19:00]
B
and if it doesn't match Sullivan, you know, and frankly I think they probably should have looked at this earlier because the bite mark stuff is so shaky. But I don't, I don't know UK law, so I'm not like criticizing, I'm just like, that would have been a pretty big red flag too. But he, he, so this, the CNN doesn't match him DNA wise. He's been released. He served 38 years. He's 68 when he was released. This is the longest documented miscarriage of justice in the United Kingdom, apparently. And according to the media reports I read, and now they're, they're looking for who the real killer is. So this is a case where, you know, they looked at the DNA for Diane's fiance, doesn't match anyone in her family, doesn't match. They've apparently eliminated 461 male subjects so far. They've not found a match yet. It doesn't match anybody in the national database in the uk. So I'm hoping that they can do something, I don't know, maybe with genetic genealogy to narrow this down and find out who did this to Diane. Because it's, it's so horrible because not only did Diane needlessly lose her life, not only did her family suffer and her fiance suffered the loss of her, but then this young man, Peter Sullivan, had his life effectively stolen for 38 years and it's a double tragedy and we want to know, you know, who, who did this, who did this for real? And yeah, it's just horrible. You know, we've talked about where we are often maybe considered within true crime, probably more as skeptics about wrongful conviction claims. We think that wrongful conviction claims are rampant everywhere and I, I just think you have to critically assess them. It's not that I don't think wrongful convictions can happen. I do think they can happen. I just think that people are motivated to claim everything's a wrongful conviction and you have to look at it just like you look a criminal case, like you wouldn't just accept that everyone's guilty as charged. I'm not going to accept that everybody's wrongfully convicted. But when I see a case where the DNA tells a clear story like this and it's not a match to me, that's just game over. Unless, you know, people say, well, well, what if he was an accomplice? Yeah, but like, I don't know, does this look like a crime where that would be the case? I don't know. That, that, that. Either way, that doesn't match the prosecution's initial theory of what happened here. So. I mean, I think it was a wrongful conviction based on what I've read. I'm always open to changing my mind, but what's your take?
- [21:32]
C
It sounds like a wrongful conviction to me. All I know about the case is what you've just said, but based on that, it sounds like a wrongful conviction.
- [21:39]
B
Yeah, I know. I'm getting like that. The reason I, why I have any caveat is because, you know, I read a couple articles. I read mainly the Mirror article, so it's possible that I just got a bad read. But I, I mean, my, my guess is the DNA kind of is hard to argue with, to be honest. So, yeah, horrible for Mr. Sullivan, horrible for Diane's family. I hope that at the very least police can figure out what happened here and who was truly the monster who did this. Because, you know, it's just, it's horrible that this happened all around and let's, yeah, let's never use bite marks again. Folks like that just, you know, I don't know, everyone was all over that and it's not, it's not a good. We don't want junk science in the courtroom. So now I think I'm heading back to the States.
- [22:26]
C
Yes. What. How are you traveling? By dirigible. By jet plane.
- [22:31]
B
That's safe.
- [22:33]
C
Sure. The Hindenburg. That was a long time ago.
- [22:35]
B
Okay, so I shouldn't be worried about that. You're not going to be yelling, oh, the humanity. As I come into the airport. I don't know. What are we doing? What is a dirigible? Am I saying that right? You say it in such an odd way. I love it.
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C
Well, it's a fun word.
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B
It's a fun word. And I can fly around. Yeah, that's. I think you'd be a little alarmed by that. If I was flying around town like
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C
that, I, I, I kind of expect it. You could have something you would do. Okay, dirigible. With one of the old fashioned pilot hats. With the. Yeah. You would take your, your hand and grasp your hat and then wave your hat to the onlookers. That seems like you.
- [23:28]
B
I don't feel like that would fly, no pun intended. In, in, in this. I feel like, people would be. People would be concerned. All right, well, let's go back to the states. Let's go back to Ohio, our neighbor to the east. And more news on Ohio later, because we're going to be visiting O Week.
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C
It's the. It's the Buckeye State.
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B
Buckeyes come see us and. And Ohioans and. And all the. The good people of Ohio come. Come hang out with us. Anyways, let's. Let's talk about this.
- [24:01]
C
You're quite the salesman.
- [24:08]
B
I'm trying. Okay. I'm just. People expect a certain level of awkwardness
- [24:15]
C
with that level of salesmanship. I'm not even sure I'll go.
- [24:17]
B
You're just. Oh, my gosh. You're just going to. I'll just bring a cardboard cut out of Kevin. He could sit there, be blown over by the wind. People like, oh, no, it's a medical emergency. All right, so Ohio. This is Cleveland, Ohio. I've never been to Cleveland. Not going to lie, but.
- [24:37]
C
Okay.
- [24:38]
B
No, I just.
- [24:39]
C
If you say I'm a little bit
- [24:40]
B
familiar with some parts of Ohio.
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C
Well, it's interesting to say they had the kind of. I'm not going to lie is if people would expect you to lie about anything, let alone that, like, you'd be trying to.
- [24:50]
B
Well, yeah, I've always kind of wanted to go to Cleveland.
- [24:53]
C
Well, it's a. It's an interesting community.
- [24:55]
B
It's like, I want to go because that's where the torso murders happened. So that's probably. That's where a weird reason to go.
- [25:01]
C
But that's where Superman was created.
- [25:03]
B
So a lot of things happen there.
- [25:05]
C
And you've told me that you feel like you belong in the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, and of course that's there, isn't it?
- [25:10]
B
I don't. What are you talking about? I never said that. For the record, he just likes to say things to get my goat on the air. Yeah, he likes to say ridiculous, embarrassing things, but continue. So my sources for this one were KCBD, Fox 8, and WTRF. This is a really horrible case, and it's just happened recently. It's a developing situation. So as of recording March 5th. Fifth, when we're recording this episode, there are things that have not been necessarily, like, confirmed directly by police. So I'm going to be very cautious about what I say because God forbid I go on the Internet, see something on a Facebook page reported to you as news, and it's wrong. So there might be information you see out there that's swirling. I'm aware of that, but I just am trying to be cautious about how we do this, because even though it's a cheat sheet, I don't want to be, you know, we're a little bit more silly and casual and laid back on here. But I'm not looking to be giving you wrong information. That's my nightmare. So, anyways, so March 2nd, which was Monday, 2026, a dog walker is going along with his dog. His name is Philip Donaldson. And they're just hanging out. They're going on a walk like you and I and Nick do. And this is in Cleveland. They're near the. The Gin Academy or Ginn Academy. I'm sorry if I'm saying that wrong. Either way. And it's near the. The dog at some point runs over to the fence line of the saranac playground. And Mr. Donaldson immediately notices that the dog is paying attention to partly buried suitcases along the fence line. And this is off of East 162nd Street. It's a field. And Mr. Donaldson probably does what I think you and I would have probably done, because I think you and I are curious. He'd be like, oh, what's going on here? He unzips one of the suitcases. I can't really tell from the news coverage if it was two suitcases or one. But he unzips one and finds the worst thing you can find when you. In this scenario, which is he finds the body of a child, specifically a little girl. Her head kind of comes out of the suitcase. And he calls 91 1. I mean, he's said to the news that he hasn't slept since this happened. I don't blame him. What a horrible, horrible thing to discover when you're just going around. And so what police found there was doubly horrifying because it was not just one body of a child. It was two. Two little girls. And they were zipped up in these suitcases. And now they're trying to figure out what the heck happened. So they've been able to determine some information about the girls. They're. They're black, they're African American, and they're half sisters. So they. They're, you know, they share one parent, and they're believed to be between eight and a half and 13 years old. And then the other one is 10 and a half and 14 years old. And they appear to have been there for some time. So you might be wondering, like, how on earth is there a situation where we don't know who these girls are officially yet. Well, I First of all, I will say I think at this point police may know who they are. We'll get more to that later. But there has been an arrest seemingly in connection with this case. So that's one thing. The other thing is that though, you know, when these initial reports were coming out, police said pretty clearly, hey, we don't, we don't know who they are. And there's no missing persons cases that match up with these circumstances. So two missing girls who are half sisters. I even went on NAMUS at one point. I was trying to look and I didn't see anything that, I mean there were a couple of things where it was like sisters who were African American going missing. But the dates didn't really make sense and it just, it didn't really work. So you know, they started asking, hey residents, check your security cameras. Let's figure out who they are. And since then a one, a 28 year old woman named Aliyah Henderson has been arrested and booked into the Cuyahoga County Jail Wednesday evening. She was arrested for murder and child endangerment. So while I don't think it is officially confirmed that she is the person of interest who's been detained in connection with this case, looking at the charges fits. And police have confirmed that there was a search warrant at an address near East 162nd and Midland Avenue and a person of interest was, was taken into custody as, as well as a third child from that household. So that person, that kid is now safe. So yeah, there are some reports out there about the girls names. I'm not going to say them just in case they're wrong. Again, I would prefer to wait for like official channels or at least some reputable local news sources before sharing what I saw. But either way, what a horrible, horrible case. Now we don't know all of the details, you know, in terms of murder. Right. You have to prove, you know, more than just like some kind of homicide and then neglecting or abusing a corpse or whatever. But you know, that's, that's what she's been charged with at this point. And hopefully there can be justice for these two little girls. I mean to, to not to have their lives be snuffed out, but then also for them to be discarded in this fashion. It really is just kind of horrible to think about, but certainly a case that will be, I'm sure developing and things will be happening in Cleveland around this and the numbers that are relevant just in case you happen to be in Cleveland and have any information, meaning like direct information about the case like, you don't. As a reminder, we don't need to send police, like, recommendations on, like, DNA. They know. They know about that. But we can. We can. Like, if you are a neighbor and heard something, then that's what they want to hear about. So the Cleveland Police Department's Homicide unit is at 216-623-5464. And the Cuyahoga County Crime Stoppers is at 216-252-7463. And yeah, that is the story there. Very troubling, very disturbing.
- [31:57]
C
Okay, well, I think at this point, I'm going to invoke a rare Kane's Choice. I've got something from Idaho. I've got something from Georgia. Which one do you want me to do first? Kane's Choice. You're the engineer of this train. You make the call. Highly irresponsibility. So if the listener says, well, this was the wrong call, highly your fault,
- [32:20]
B
do Georgia first, then Idaho.
- [32:22]
C
Okay, You. That's what you said. That's what we're doing. So this Georgia case, my source for this is cnn. And one thing that the law does, one thing that we figure out through the legal process, through the judicial process, is what sort of responsibilities do we owe each other in a society? Because we're not islands, the decisions we make affect others. Sometimes positively, often unfortunately, the decisions affect others adversely. How much of that is our responsibility? How much of that should we be held liable for? And I'm bringing this up because of the case of Colin Gray. He is the father of a school shooter named Colt Gray. And the question we are forced to deal with is, does Mr. Gray Sr. Colin Gray, bear any responsibility for the murderous acts of his son? And things that came out in his trial was basically that Mr. Gray Sr. Knew or had reason to know that his child was unbalanced. I think he even had Mr. Gray Sr. Knew that his son had a picture of a school shooter on his wall. He knew that his son had made threats. His estranged wife told him, you know, maybe you should restrict his access to guns. And Mr. Gray Sr. Did not do that, seemingly because it'd be too much trouble and difficulty to raise those issues with his son. And he apparently, at least he claims to have had the hope that by introducing his son to firearms, that could potentially be a father son bonding activity. They could do things like go hunting together. And of course, that didn't happen. And Mr. Gray's son committed a heinous act, carried out a mass shooting back in September of 2024 where two teachers and two students ended up losing their lives and nine other people got wounded. And so the question is, should the father have taken more steps to prohibit access to firearms from his son when he knew his son had some issues? And if so, what sort of consequence should he bear for not having done more? Mr. Gray was found guilty of murder and manslaughter charges. And so he now faces 10 to 30 years in prison on the murder charges, on each murder charge, and one to ten years on each manslaughter charge. So I'm just curious, what, what is your take?
- [35:53]
B
I mean, listen, I'm not a. I'm not an attorney. I'm not a legal expert as a person, as just like a layperson. Good. You know, I think. I think. Good. I think this is good. I want people to be accountable. You know, four people died. Two people who dedicated their lives to teaching kids. And then two kids. Two. Two babies, because these people couldn't get their act together. So, yeah, I don't. I don't care. I hope, you know, I mean, I have no sympathy for people like this. I guess maybe I would like in an era in, in a. In a different reality where schools weren't being shot up, like, at the rate that they have been. But like, in this case, if there can be any measure of accountability, maybe that will be a deterrent to the next, you know, set of parents who don't want to do their jobs. I guess that's how I feel. And I, you know, I welcome these developments. Now, whether it's going to hold up legally or whatnot, or whether there'll be challenges, I'm sure that's probably.
- [36:55]
C
Yeah, I'm sure there'll be challenges. But certainly we've seen another case where parents were held legally responsible for the actions of their child, or rather, they were held responsible for not doing more to prevent access to firearms to their violent kids.
- [37:14]
B
Yeah. And I do want to say something. Go ahead. And I want to add something, though.
- [37:18]
C
Well, go ahead.
- [37:20]
B
I don't want to see cases where you have parents who have kids. Some kids I really am convinced are just a problem. And maybe the parents don't do everything perfect, but you can't really blame the parents to the extent where, like, there might just be underlying issues that are not getting taken care of. And, and it's not all the parents fault. I don't, I don't think every case is the parents fault. And you might have situations where, if you're seeing parents who are locking up any firearms they have and preventing their kids from having them and trying to get them help and doing all this stuff to. To help. But for some reason, the kid is still able to get ahold of something by, you know, breaking a lock or whatever. I don't want those parents to be held responsible, those hypothetical parents. I don't think this is an appropriate thing to do in every mass shooting case, but I think in certain cases. In certain cases it is. And in cases where it's just like, oh, you know, it'll fix my troubled teen son, guns, you know, it's. It's way too. It's not the fricking 90s anymore. Like, what are we doing? Like, I don't understand. Like, I don't understand how you could. It just sounds like an excuse for negligence and laziness. I don't know.
- [38:39]
C
I'm gonna read a little bit from the CNN article. Mr. Gray Sr. Admitted he was aware that his son had been physically violent, had a photo of a school shooter posted on his bedroom wall, and had texted a few weeks before the attack. Whenever something happens, just know the blood is on your hands. End quote. So it certainly seems that he had some sort of awareness of what his son was like, what he was going through, that he knew or should have been aware there was a real potential for violence there, and that perhaps this is not the sort of person around whom guns should be stored unsecured.
- [39:24]
B
Pro tip. Pro tip. If your kid starts worshiping a school shooter, lock up your guns. It's really simple. You know, that's not a normal thing. That's not like a normal phase that kids go through that there's something seriously wrong and you should be, you know, considering pretty extreme intervention to. I mean, to protect your own kid, frankly, too, and to protect other people, to protect your community. We do owe people something. We do live in a society, you know, you're not. It's not just a rugged individualism all the way down. Absolutely not. And, you know, I just. I'm just disgusted with people like this. And also, I'm going to say this. Maybe this is. Maybe, I don't know. Like, this is just my opinion, but, like, I would not be surprised if you do a ven. I said this to someone in our Facebook group the other night. If you do a Venn diagram between the people who are negligent, sloppy, irresponsible, neglectful parents and the people who are negligent, sloppy, neglectful gun owners, I. I think there's probably a lot of overlap here. And if this serves a deterrent for people who Want to just kind of like, you know, let their teenage teenager just crash and burn and become a weapon of mass destruction in their community? If this serves as kind of a reminder of. No, no, you definitely, you know, going squirrel hunting in the woods isn't going to fix whatever the heck. This is way too extreme for that. And even if you were going to go squirrel hunting in the woods, lock up your guns properly so that no one's going to get hurt. And I think that's a good thing for society because it seems like, you know, seems like just like there's this, like, washing of the hands of accountability in some of these cases. And it's like, you know, like not. I think if it can. If you can save a couple of innocent lives here or there, because it forces people to act responsibly, then I'm good with it. I mean, do you have any discomfort given that, like, he obviously wasn't involved
- [41:23]
C
in planning this thing at some point negligence or it becomes criminal to me. And he certainly seemed to have a lot of warnings that his son was on a dangerous path. As I said, even his estranged wife tried to get him to do something different. So the prosecutor in the case said, you know, this isn't about the behavior of the son. It's about the behavior of the defendant, the father. And I think there was a lot of negligence here.
- [41:57]
B
There. There really. There really is. So I don't know. I mean, it sat all around, but I just feel like there's. There's not knowing what to do with your troubled teen. And then there's this.
- [42:12]
C
Yeah. So let's. Let's go to our last case, which is the case out of Idaho. And my source for this is the Idaho Statesman. And this case also touches on digital creators in the true crime space. And yeah, it's an odd case. I think once it's about a digital creator in the true crime space. And it calls to mind one thing right away, which is that maybe 15, 20 years ago, when you would see content produced by someone about a crime or about anything, frankly, it would likely be produced by professional organizations which had some sort of internal standards. That's not the case anymore. Now anybody can go online and start producing content and sharing content that has the potential to reach really large audiences and has the potential to really affect people's lives for good or for ill. And maybe some of those are voices which would have gotten shut out before. And it's a great thing that now those voices aren't shut out for the most part.
- [43:44]
B
No.
- [43:45]
C
But A lot of those voices are voices that, frankly, don't really deserve to be heard. And this case I'm going to talk about involves one of those voices. This is a woman named Ashley Gillard. That's how I'm going to pronounce it. She is someone who covered the Idaho University of Idaho murders case. And she. She believes herself to have psychic powers. She also considers herself to be really skilled at using tarot cards to divine truths about things. And she got her tarot card training via YouTube, which is. YouTube, can be very handy if you, like, need instructions on how to maybe clean out your vacuum cleaner. Probably less handy if you're trying to learn how to read tarot cards. Although I'm not. I won't talk about my opinions about tarot cards.
- [44:58]
B
Well, here's the thing. People can have their own little hobbies or whatever interests or beliefs, but there's a different. Like, that's not a factual thing. Like, I saw something in the tarot cards. Not something that's, like, worth reporting. If you want to just do it for fun in your house and with your friends, whatever. If you want to believe in astrology, whatever. But there's a difference between using that as just a fun hobby that you believe in personally versus using it to hurt other people.
- [45:29]
C
Yes. And what's important here is that this woman, with no evidence, became convinced that the person responsible for that horrific quadruple homicide is a professor named Rebecca Schofield. And there was no evidence for this. And at some point, even the police department released a statement saying, there's no evidence of this. There's no reason to believe this professor had anything to do with the crime, but this didn't stop her from repeatedly just repeatedly making those claims. And I just want to stress. I can't stress this enough. Not only are the claims about the professor's purported involvement in the crimes, not only are they untrue, but there's no evidence for them. And something can be untrue and there can be evidence for it. That's not what's happening here. You know, for instance, if a bunch of cereal is stolen from a grocery store and there's security camera footage that places Anya there, and we know she has a tendency to steal cereal, well, then we have some evidence that she may have done it and reason to believe that, but that's not proof that she did do it. And maybe she's completely innocent. So you can have evidence for something, it can still be untrue. But in this case, there's no evidence. The Police, as I say, active, actually issued a statement saying they did not suspect her, the professor, of being involved in these crimes. It's really unusual for police agencies to release statements like this. None of this stopped this woman from continuing to do these tiktoks, falsely accusing the professor of being involved in this.
- [47:36]
B
I feel like. I mean, I followed this a little bit in the background, and I feel like it just egged her on more.
- [47:42]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Some of these details are just ridiculous, and they're infuriating. And Anja and I speak as two people who had a lot of nonsense about us posted online, and we chose to enter the true crime space. So to some extent. Well, we asked for it.
- [48:08]
B
Yeah. We could be considered, in some instances, limited public figures.
- [48:14]
C
But in this instance, this woman did nothing to bring this on herself. These accusations out there and spreading and getting all of these views caused her a lot of stress and emotional upset, as of course, they would. So she sued the Tiktoker for defamation. She won. And this week, she was awarded a very healthy settlement. She was awarded $10 million. Now, just because you get an award of $10 million from a TikToker, that doesn't mean the TikToker has $10 million to pay her. But she was ordered to pay $10 million to this woman that she defamed.
- [48:59]
B
Good. I mean, like, what I was. I mean, here's the thing, unfortunately, you know, I think, like, I hate to. Hate to sound like a snob, although, you know, I mean, I kind of feel like I am a true crime snob, and I'm proud of it at this point because it's like, what's the other option? You're someone who enjoys listening to somebody slam innocent people, you know, But I. I really feel like we occupy a space in true crime where we've cultivated, on purpose an audience that gets this. That gets why it's bad to do this, the problem. So I feel like I'm preaching to the choir all day. The problem are the people who just mindlessly consume true crime, mindlessly eat up nonsense like this and say, you know, and basically take a woman who is, you know, doing tarot cards and saying why it's leading her to believe that, you know, this. This innocent woman is guilty and doing stuff with that. And it's like, that's. That's the problem. I don't know how to reach them because I don't feel like, first of all, they care for the most part. I'm not sure that most of them Are, like, doing it harmful, like, they are trying to be harmful. I think there's probably just like a lack of empathy and a lack of consideration and frankly, a lack of intellectual rigor, let's put it that way. But, like, I don't know how to reach them. And I'd be curious what other people think. Like, how do we get to the people who are just like, propping up? Because, I mean, this tech talker is not the only one. We saw this in Delphi, we saw this in Kieran Reed. We've seen it again and again where basically this creator whips up an Internet mob around somebody and defames them. And I'm, I hope, I hope this is a shot over the bow to the creators who do this. Like, you could be next. You could have your life ruined financially if you continue to engage in this. All you have to do is basically tick off the wrong person and it's over for you. I think we need some metaphorically. I'm not speaking about actual violence metaphorically. We need some heads on spikes. We need some heads on spikes in this space to basically let people know that there's a limit. There's a standard of behavior that if you can't even meet that, you're going to. You're going to get your life wrecked. And that's how it should be. Because as you said previously, we didn't have to deal with this. You know your nutty aunt who got way too into horoscopes and is telling you about how she thinks Ted Bundy was innocent and framed and this is the real killer. She didn't have a talk show. She didn't have a newspaper column. No, the gatekeepers wouldn't let her near that. And people can complain about. Oh, well, then voices were kept out. Yeah, sure, but like, also voices were kept out. And in this case, that was a good thing, but now you can do it yourself. And I'm glad because we're doing it ourselves. I feel like we're pretty responsible. I'm not saying we're perfect, but we're pretty responsible with how we go about things. But not a lot of people care about being responsible. Being responsible is hard, and it's easier to just go out and lie and make stuff up about people. And so, like, I feel we need. There needs to be this kind of retribution in certain cases when people way cross the line. And it's not about free speech anymore. It's just about making up seven defaming people. We need to have these verdicts and these Financial consequences? Because I don't, I don't see how. I think a lot of it has to come from the audience, but barring that, it has to be. Creators are scared to say certain things which they should be. I mean, again, like, this is not a situation where she's like, oh, well, this was a local sex offender who was convicted of breaking into a woman's house. And so could he have done it? I don't think that's necessarily super responsible either, but that would be defensible.
- [53:00]
C
That's more defensive.
- [53:01]
B
This is just making stuff up about a woman who you don't know.
- [53:05]
C
And say what you will about the state of mainstream media in this country, and I can say quite a bit about it, but I can't imagine the New York Times or CNN getting a message from someone saying, oh, my tarot cards say that this person is the killer. And they're saying, oh boy, this is a scoop. We've got to run this. Mainstream media does have some standards.
- [53:29]
B
Mainstream media is not perfect, but they have standards and they have levels of, of, you know, of editorial control. So like, you know, you don't just have a reporter going, you know, like, they have to discuss it with their editor and the news director and different people. So there's more checks and balances at the end of the day. And that's why people are and should be skeptical of web creators, including us, because we're two people, okay? We don't have an editor. We try to edit ourselves, we try to, we try to do things. And again, we're trying to do it in a, in a, in a respectful and accurate way. And we, we hold ourselves to a high standard. But I'm going to tell you, that is not everybody. I think a lot more people are interested in sounding ethical and responsible and true crime than actually being ethical and responsible in true crime. But that's a whole nother conversation. But I think a lot of people,
- [54:17]
C
yeah, I know some people in particular who that applies to.
- [54:20]
B
I'm an ethical podcaster, which means I have opened free sourced serial killers in my podcast. And it's like just this, you know, like doing an NPR voice doesn't make you ethical, you know, buddy, but like, that is that, that's more common. But at least those people are actually not the people who, I think losing it. The people who are losing it are like the kind of like tick, like there's like this TikTok YouTube thing where it's like really a bunch of oddballs are doing it and sometimes they're harmless. And then other times they're harmful. And, you know, I'm glad to see this verdict because, I mean, like, this is just ridiculous. And I hope it makes other people scared, because it should TikTok.
- [55:00]
C
Okay, I'm going to make a promotional announcement. And then afterwards you told me you said, kevin, clear the deck. I have an amazing anecdote, Kevin, that will make people roar with laughter and then wipe away a tear.
- [55:13]
B
I honestly don't remember what I said I was going to talk about, so you're going to have to, like, set me up for that more.
- [55:18]
C
Well, you told me you didn't have any idea what you'd talk about. Okay, good. I was just trying to build expectations artificially.
- [55:23]
B
Okay. Embarrass me and make me look stupid. Good, Good stuff.
- [55:27]
C
Well, earlier you, you were saying, oh, yeah, we're going to Ohio. But here's how you do it. We're going to Ohio. We're going to Ohio. We're going to Marion. We're going to do this event and it's going to be a tremendous event. Have a lot of fun. I'm thrilled about it. Where are we going and when are we going to be there?
- [55:43]
B
Well, Kevin, we are going to the public library in Marion, Ohio. Doors open at 6pm on Thursday, March 13. I'm sorry. No, I'm lying. I'm telling lies. After making a big deal about being an ethical podcaster, we're going on Thursday, March 12, 2026. Thursday, March 12, at the Marion Public Library. Doors open at 6. The program will be between 6:30 and 7:30. And then at 7:30, we're going to sign your copies of Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders, and the Dark side of the American Heartland, a book that we wrote and authored. And it'll be a conversation about the Delphi murders and our work on that. And it's going to be hopefully really interesting for people.
- [56:32]
C
Hopefully. It's definitely going to be interesting. It's going to be a lot of fun. And I'll tell you, in the last seven days, Anya has acquired three hats. And I bet you're going to wear at least one of those hats to this event. So if you want to see a behatted Anya, this is an excellent opportunity.
- [56:51]
B
And Kevin will be in full clown face paint for everyone's amusement. How do you like that? Do you like it when I do it to you?
- [57:00]
C
Isn't it kind of pathetic to see her try?
- [57:04]
B
You're a clown now.
- [57:05]
C
You're gonna look great. It's gonna be A great event. I'm looking forward to it. Counting the hours.
- [57:10]
B
Yeah, I'm really excited. And the people there are so nice. But we're gonna be hanging out. And also lots of Warren G. Harding stuff in town, so all the Harding heads can get their fix. No, I'm just kidding. I mean, we will be going to his gravesite, though, because you and I have, like, we want to check out. We've both been to a lot of presidential grave sites, so we're trying to check off those off our list.
- [57:30]
C
And I don't want to offend the good people in Marion because I love them dearly. So all I'll say is Warren G. Harding is a very interesting figure, but I've always been fascinated.
- [57:39]
B
Controversial man in many respects, and I
- [57:42]
C
don't want to say anything more than that.
- [57:43]
B
Yeah, we don't want to get jumped by the Harding heads at the grave site before we go show up at the event looking all beaten up. No, it'll be really fun.
- [57:54]
C
Yeah, you did buy some hats. We went to an antique store. And didn't we, like, fill up the heart? The cart with cats? Got. Got two, Right?
- [58:02]
B
Yeah, we got. We got two hats. I'm not gonna wear two hats to an event. That would.
- [58:07]
C
That'd be absurd.
- [58:07]
B
Stupid.
- [58:08]
C
That'd be absurd.
- [58:09]
B
This is. But just remember.
- [58:10]
C
Yeah. Don't be ridiculous.
- [58:12]
B
Knock it off. We're. We're. There's no tickets required to this event. Again, Thursday, March 12, 2026. I'm repeating it a lot because this is our last time that we're gonna be able to tell you about it, because it's next week. It's Thursday, but we'd really love to see you there and come and meet us, and it'll be informative and fun to see all of you.
- [58:31]
C
So, yeah, last weekend Got hats, the Antique mall in Muncie, Indiana. We went there to see a John Mulaney concert. Not at the antique mall.
- [58:42]
B
It was not a John Mulaney concert. John Mulaney's not a musician. John Mulaney is a comedian. And he did a standup routine, or
- [58:50]
C
whatever you want to call it. With that said, why don't you tell this anecdote? I'm hanging onto my hat, I'm sitting down, I'm holding my sides, and I also have a Kleenex ready to wipe away the tear that she said would come at the end of it.
- [59:05]
B
Is this the dog thing?
- [59:06]
C
Yeah.
- [59:06]
B
Okay, so. Well, I don't know. It's really not much of an anecdote. Folks.
- [59:11]
C
Well, then maybe you shouldn't have built it up so much.
- [59:14]
B
I just thought it was funny and it was kind of amusing. And shout out to this nice person that we met. We did not get their name, but they were super nice. But we have been. You know, Nick is a new dog. He's a shelter dog, comes with his own baggage and trauma and whatnot. So he's been great. He's been settling in very nicely. Part of the reason is because we've taken him to some doggy training lessons to kind of not only have him learn, you know, positive association with being good, you know, get. Be good, get treats, but also to kind of train us to help support him better. But as we were walking through, through, I felt like, you know, he was doing something ridiculous. Like he has this, like, kind of almost monkey, like, cry when he's, you know, frustrated. And he was, you know, like, we're trying to get him to, like, sit, and he's all like. And at that moment, this lady walks by and is like, I like your podcast. And we're like, hey. Even though we were like, no, not one of the listeners knows that our dog is out of control. It's been exposed.
- [60:15]
C
That's not exactly a state secret. Don't you complain about the show, about the dog every week.
- [60:19]
B
Actually, wasn't. We were. This is a bit of a sneak preview, but we were interviewing. We were doing a show with Julia from the consult and Brett from the prosecutors. And they're great. We love them. Did the show with them, and we'd all be having, like, these serious conversations, like, okay, what do you think about this murder? Okay, this is what I think. And a couple of times, Nick would just, like, explode out from behind us to hijack the whole thing and get attention. So that was pret.
- [60:45]
C
Pretty funny.
- [60:46]
B
Yeah, we all. We all were amused, but he. He wanted something to say. Other than that, life's been quiet. We went to the John Mulaney thing, and we went to, you know, in. In Muncie, as we mentioned. Did we mention it on the show?
- [61:03]
C
We literally mentioned it, like, maybe four minutes.
- [61:05]
B
Okay. Yeah, we did. We did. I'm sorry. I'm just.
- [61:08]
C
Are you okay? Are you having one of your episodes?
- [61:12]
B
One of my classic. This is an episode.
- [61:14]
C
And also right before that, you said.
- [61:17]
B
I didn't know if you cut that out because it was such a Right.
- [61:19]
C
Right before that you said, kevin, I'm promising the listeners I will wear three hats at the Mary.
- [61:25]
B
I'm not going to do that because I don't want to look like an idiot. So that's off. That's. Don't, don't come to that, expecting that, because you're going to be extremely disappointed.
- [61:35]
C
And the name of our presentation is Hats Off.
- [61:37]
B
No, it's not. Oh, my God. The worst.
- [61:43]
C
You come out, you'd be wearing a hat. You say, this hat reminds me of a story. And then you take it off after you tell the stories. Oh, this hat. This hat reminds me of a song.
- [61:52]
B
One day you're gonna have to come to one of these events, hat in hand yourself and have to explain why I didn't show up.
- [61:58]
C
Are we done?
- [62:00]
B
Was there any other sad anecdotes we can give to give a sense of how boring our lives are?
- [62:05]
C
I think we should just wrap it up.
- [62:06]
B
Yeah, we could wrap it up. All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening. And, yeah, come to Marion, Ohio. Thursday, March 12, 6pm Doors open. Come hang out with us and get your book signed. And we'll bring pens. So don't worry about that. But do bring the book.
- [62:23]
C
Well, you don't have to bring the book because you can buy the book there.
- [62:25]
B
There will be limited copies for sale, but, you know, so you can, but it's not, you know, they're not a bookstore, so just keep that in mind. They are a library, though.
- [62:38]
C
So remember a few minutes ago I said, why don't we just end the show?
- [62:40]
B
Whatever. All right, Goodbye, everybody.
- [62:43]
C
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [63:04]
B
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [63:27]
C
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [63:39]
B
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.