The Cheat Sheet: Sun Drops and Stabbings

Summary

Murder Sheet – The Cheat Sheet: Sun Drops and Stabbings

Date: June 5, 2026
Hosts: Anya Keen (journalist) & Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

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Episode Overview

In this Cheat Sheet episode, hosts Anya Keen and Kevin Greenlee deliver a characteristically sharp, informal, and conversation-driven recap of several headline-grabbing and cold cases. The discussion centers on two Indiana cases—one a long-awaited cold case breakthrough, one a tense trooper-involved shooting—before moving to a recently solved double homicide at a North Carolina soda bottling plant and a senseless Michigan Facebook Marketplace murder. The episode is peppered with personal anecdotes, candid takes on crime and justice, reflections on motive, and playful banter.

Content warnings: Murder, sexual assault, violence.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Solved Cold Case: The Murder of Angela Sacco (Fort Wayne, Indiana)

[03:54–16:19]

• Case Background

  • Angela Sacco, 25, mother of a two-year-old, was last seen during early hours of December 21, 1997, at her workplace. Later that day, her body was found in a remote area of Huntington County. She died from stab wounds; her body was partially clothed and dumped post-mortem.
  • The case went cold despite robust investigation and over 100 interviews.

• Breakthrough

  • Indiana State Police’s cold case unit, using advances in DNA forensic genealogy and partnering with Identifinders International (founded by Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick), created a DNA profile from preserved crime scene evidence.
  • In February 2026, suspect Stephen L. Schlader was identified through both SNP and STR DNA testing. Schlader, recently released from federal prison at the time of the murder, died in 2021, escaping formal justice.

• Notable Quotes

  • "The professionalism and expertise...preserved evidence that yielded answers nearly three decades after Angela Sacco’s tragic death." — Indiana State Police Press Release [12:40]
  • “Being a good cold case detective is basically waking up every morning and wanting to bash your head against a wall but being excited to do so.” — Captain Kevin Smith, as recalled by Anya [08:25]

• Personal and Procedural Reflections

  • The hosts describe their travels and memories of Fort Wayne, expressing relief at the closure for Angela’s family but frustration that Schlader won’t face consequences.
  • Anya expresses a desire to hear from anyone who knew Schlader, probing whether he had a pattern of violence or a connection to Sacco.

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2. Trooper-Involved Shooting in Hammond, Indiana

[16:19–24:39]

• Incident Summary

  • Shortly after midnight, an Indiana State Trooper conducted a traffic stop on a gray Hyundai Elantra for a violation. The situation escalated with non-compliant occupants, resulting in a call for backup.
  • Officers from multiple agencies arrived. The driver, Aaron Barnes (34), produced a handgun and exchanged fire with police. He was killed; a trooper was shot in the chest but survived. The female passenger was detained for 48h but not charged at the time of recording.

• Hosts’ Commentary

  • Anya and Kevin discuss the dangers and unpredictability of routine traffic stops.
  • Anya: “You never know… I just don’t understand the mindset of like, yeah, I’m gonna blast my way out of this… now he's dead and he shot somebody. What was the point?” [24:11]

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3. Cold Case Arrest: Sundrop Bottling Company Murders (North Carolina)

[25:21–29:57]

• Case Summary

  • In June 2008, office manager Donna Barnhart and job applicant Darrell Knowles were murdered during a robbery at the Sundrop Bottling Company. The case remained unsolved for nearly 20 years.
  • Recently, Johnny Stephen Talbert, age 43, was arrested in Port Angeles, Washington. He had an extensive history of police contact: 288 incidents, 14 arrests, including felonies.

• Notable Quotes

  • “Whenever someone dies, that’s a whole universe of memories and connections… lost forever.” — Kevin [26:32]
  • “People kill people for all kinds of dumb reasons… It’s not elaborate; it’s not interesting most of the time.” — Anya [29:57]

• Broader Reflections

  • The hosts discuss the importance of getting repeat offenders off the street and societal failures that enable such violence.

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4. Marketplace Murder: Michigan Facebook Sale Turns Deadly

[31:18–38:01]

• Case Summary

  • Victim: Orhan Hosik, a survivor of childhood cancer with facial disfigurement, was murdered by Omar Brogdon during a Facebook Marketplace transaction over an argument about sports cars (Mercedes vs. BMW).

• Notable Quotes

  • “You may be setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect a motive that makes sense… A lot of murders happen because a couple of guys got into a stupid argument and it went too far.” — Kevin [34:00]
  • “You’re trying to apply Columbo, fictional, satisfying conclusions to real life… The reality is a decent amount of US adults, especially males, are emotionally unregulated children… with access to weapons.” — Anya [35:22–37:16]

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5. Motive, Male Violence, and Societal Commentary

[38:01–41:06]

• Discussion Points
  • The hosts discuss how, in real cases, motives are often much less “satisfying” or intricate than in detective fiction.
  • Anya emphasizes the importance of emotional regulation, particularly for young boys, as a preventive factor for violence.

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6. Memorable Moments & Banter

[41:06–49:06]

• Interludes

  • The latter part of the episode features playful discussion about cooking “Mr. Pibb chicken,” cornhole games, and the trivia of podcast advertising algorithms, all in the hosts’ trademark self-deprecating, good-natured tone.

• Quotes

  • “If you have a recipe where like one of the key ingredients is Mr. Pibb, how can I not love that?” — Kevin [43:04]
  • “You’re the one talking about alternate Kevins and Anyas from the future coming to give us their dark warnings…” — Kevin [26:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Angela Sacco cold case update: 03:54–16:19
• Hammond trooper shooting: 16:19–24:39
• Sundrop Bottling Co. double homicide arrest (North Carolina): 25:21–29:57
• Michigan Facebook Marketplace murder: 31:18–38:01
• Reflections on Motive and Male Violence: 38:01–41:06
• Culinary Banter and Podcast Humor: 41:06–49:06

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Quotes & Moments to Remember

• “Being a good cold case detective is basically waking up every morning and wanting to bash your head against a wall but being excited to do so.” — Captain Kevin Smith, via Anya [08:25]
• “If you look at me, you say to yourself, ‘There’s a guy that knows how to cornhole.’” — Kevin [44:51]

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Conclusion

This episode, “Sun Drops and Stabbings,” offers a blend of true crime reporting and candid commentary, showcasing both the banality and brutality of violence—how closure can sometimes come decades late, and how motives in real life often disappoint those seeking narrative satisfaction. The hosts’ personable approach makes complex cases accessible, inviting listeners to reflect on justice, prevention, and the everyday strangeness of crime in America. Their off-script warmth and humor ensure even the darkest subjects get the human touch.

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For more:

• Listener tips: [e-mail]
• Ad-free/bonus episodes: Patreon or Apple Premium

Transcript

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[Anya Keen]

I'm Anya and today we're going to be talking about a number of cases on the Cheat Sheet, including two cold cases and two Indiana cases. Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder and sexual assault as well as violence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So now that we're back, Anya, from Crimecon, where I'm sure we had a great time, you've become a little bit of a homebody. You're just sticking around Indiana for your cases.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, not. Not. I'm, I'm. I'm all traveled out, had a great time in Las Vegas with all the wonderful crime con people. I'm sure we're recording this on May 27, so I don't know. Hopefully it wasn't a disaster that we're looking back on, but I doubt it would be. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are we creating like a time paradox here?

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, we're doing something like Anya's and Kevin's from the Futures are gonna like appear before us and tell us to do things differently. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't we just get started? I love that Hit the bat

[Anya Keen]

from the man who gave us the friggin endless cereal riffs and the cornhole riffs and all of this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was too much.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah. My name is Anya Keen. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Keen]

And this is the murder sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're A true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Keen]

We're the murder sheet and this is the cheat sheet. Sundrops and stabbings. All right, so I think we're starting out with my Indiana cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right.

[Anya Keen]

Can't believe that was just so abrupt. I think. Are you okay?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fine.

[Anya Keen]

Is everything all right? Are you so drained from CrimeCon, which hasn't happened yet as of this recording. I feel like everyone's gonna be worried and, like, wanna check in on you every.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Everything is fine.

[Anya Keen]

Everything's fine. As he drops his phone. All right, so my first Indiana case is news that we got a press release from the Fort Wayne Post of the Indiana State Police. And I also did a little digging on newspapers.com through yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was like, you're very familiar with Fort Wayne. We spent some time in Fort Wayne where we were covering the Richard Allen trial. Our dog Nick is from Fort Wayne. There used to be a great Lincoln Museum there.

[Anya Keen]

We went to a restaurant with wonderful grilled cheese. Yes, that was great. And I don't think I had any, but you were very enamored with it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I described that grilled cheese to you so eloquently. I painted such a picture of that grilled cheese in your mind, you almost feel like you tasted it.

[Anya Keen]

Also, no offense, Fort Wayne IANS, but worst McDonald's I've ever been to in my life. A scary McDonald's, but a nice city, nice people. And I remember one time we were walking around and someone pulled over and they're like, murder sheet. And we're like, hi. So we had a nice conversation with him. So I always have fond memories and most one of the most beautiful courthouses like that I've ever been in. Remarkable courthouse, nice people. Unfortunately, this is about a bad thing that happened to a young woman from Fort Wayne. And the only good news is that there's been answers delivered in this. But as I mentioned, my source was the Indiana State Police press release. But I also did some digging with the Columbia City, Indiana commercial mail, which had a little bit more information in that. So this concerns. Oh, actually, weirdly enough, Fort Wayne has been on my mind for a different reason. So I've been reading this series by the author, Frederick Brown. First book was the Fabulous Clip Joint, which also involves Indiana specifically. Gary second book is dead ringer. They spend a lot of time in Evansville, South Bend, Indianapolis, and then Fort Wayne is a big part of the action. So if you're looking for an Indiana mystery, I couldn't recommend the series more highly. I loved it so much. I'm loving it. I'm on book three now. I'm going crazy. But anyways, so 25 year old Angela Sacco was a woman living in Fort Wayne. She had a two year old son in 1997. I've seen some indications online that she was working at a club called Poor John's in Fort Wayne. I don't really know what the nature of that club was or if that's confirmed, but according to a press release I received from Sergeant Wes Rowleder on May 26, 2020, she was last seen during the early morning hours of December 21, 1997. And that was at her place of employment. And unfortunately that day, Sunday December 21, 1997, right before Christmas, she was found deceased in Huntington county. That is adjacent to Allen county, where Fort Wayne is. And this was the Huntington County Reservoir property belonging to the reservoir off County Road 100 east north and north of County Road A hundred south. And this is again in Huntington County. So these are the agencies that worked that case starting in 1997. The Huntington County Coroner's Office, the Huntington County Sheriff's Department, the Indiana Conservation Officers with the Department of Natural Resources and the Indiana State Police. So they did an autopsy and they found that the cause of death for her was stabbing stab wounds. Now another source I used was the Indianapolis News and the Associated Press. They listed Angela M. Sacco as being the first homicide in Huntington county since 1995. And the coroner working on her was acting Huntington County Coroner Bruce Myers. They described her body as partially clothed and found near a remote parking area. There were tire tracks along a ditch and at the time they felt that she had been killed elsewhere and then dumped there. So according to the State Police, this was a pretty robust investigation. They interviewed like a hundred people. Detectives just simply never found enough probable cause to charge anybody. And they investigated it for years. They, the Indiana State Police say they spent a lot of time on it for 29 years. And then in 2024 they formed their cold case unit. So we actually, that's another reason we went up to Fort Wayne not too long ago, I guess like about a year ago. We interviewed Captain Kevin Smith, who was one of the real, I think like founding people within the Cold case unit for the State Police. He's been associated with a lot of different cold cases being solved. He's really cool. I enjoyed talking to him. We talked about a different case that he solved and you know, I thought it was, I, his, his words always ring in My head. He said, being a good cold case detective is basically waking up every morning and wanting to bash your head against a wall but being excited to do so. And I think that's true. But this cold case unit started really focusing on this murder. They wanted to basically see what they could do with DNA now that there have been so many advancements in that technology. So 28 years after she was murdered, they collected evidence that had been preserved from the crime scene. They submitted it for testing. And now here's another person we talked to recently. I don't think this episode, this episode will be out by the time this comes out. So this is kind of cool. He just happened this way. I didn't plan it. But they sent this evidence to Identifinders International, That's a forensic genealogy company in California. Notably, it was founded by Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick, who we just heard from this week. She is, unless our schedule gets moved around, in which case, I apologize, but Dr. Fitzpatrick is one of those folks within true crime words, like, she's had such a big impact, the Phoenix Canal murders. She was thanked specifically in the yogurt shop press conference. I mean, she's done so many cases and had such a big impact on the use of genetic genealogy. So she's awesome. So they were working with her, and I remember in the interview, she's like, yeah, I've done a lot of, like, Indiana cases, so I guess this was one of them. But anyways, they developed a DNA profile with the single nucleotide polymorphism, or SNP, DNA testing. And then in February 2026, the forensic genetic genealogist further identified a candidate suspect based on that. That suspect's name, Stephen L. Schlader. And they confirmed through STR testing, a different type of DNA testing, that he was the contributor of DNA at the scene. And what the press release says is, quote, ironically, he had been released from federal prison on another case in the spring of 1997, just five months before Angela's murder. Sadly, this piece of human excrement died in 2021 in Huntington County. So he will not, he's not alive to know the shame of being identified as a murderer of a young mother. So that's too bad. You always like it when these people are alive to suffer and have everybody know, including their friends and family, what an awful person they are. That's what they deserve. But he. He died. So, you know, he's probably suffering somewhere else. But anyways, so his last known residence was Markle, Indiana. I actually found this dude's Facebook it's so creepy because of how normal it is. He's just posting a lot about car racing. There's nothing on there. I mean, I just did a skim, but there's nothing on there that would make me be like, oh my gosh, he's so weird and creepy. It just shows you someone could have some, you know, normal presentation and be harboring an extremely dark secret. You just don't know. But Huntington County Prosecutor Jeremy Nix said that if he was alive, if Schlater was alive, he'd be charged with her murder. And you can understand why DNA matched him to it. Here's a quote from Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick. Identifyingers International is proud to have supported the Indiana State Police to bring long overdue answers to Angela's family. This case is another example of a case that would not have been solved without the use of forensic genetic genealogy. And this is what the Indiana State Police said. Quote, the conclusion of this case again demonstrates the tenacity of the Indiana State Police Cold Case Unit seeking answers for victims and their families. The professionalism and expertise displayed by the initial responding law enforcement officers of the Huntington County Sheriff's Department, Indiana Conservation Officers and Indiana State Police preserved evidence that yielded answers. Nearly three decades after Angela Sacco's tragic death, the work ethic of detectives from the agencies, combined with the assistance of numerous witnesses, the Huntington County Coroner's Office, the Huntington County Prosecutor's Office, plus advancements in scientific technology, enabled the detectives from the Indiana State Police Cold Case Unit to assemble the pieces of this nearly 30 year old puzzle. I wanted to find out more about who this creep Schlader is and actually if anyone knows him or his family, get in touch. I want to know about this guy. How do you do something like this to a young woman? And is this the type of offender, where did he have some kind of preexisting relationship with her that then he. Something happened where they had an argument or he attacked her or he wanted to cover something up? Or is this a situation where he stalked and murdered her and she was a stranger to him? I want to know because I think if it's the latter, then you wonder if he did it before. You know, I'm not saying not, not everything's a serial killer. There's. I think it's much more likely for somebody to kill one person and never do it again. That's way more. I know it sounds weird to people, but I think that's way more common than we like to think. We like to think that people are just compelled to kill. And it's like, no, I think it's a choice. And maybe somebody does it once and they don't do it again. But I'm just curious. So if you knew this family, if you knew him, All I was able to find out was that he got divorced a bunch of times. He, he was, I think busted for battery at some point. That may have been what he was in jail or prison for. That they kind of alluded to earlier. But, you know, like, nothing. I didn't see anything that was like, oh my gosh. Like, you know. But it also just shows you, like, if someone's violent against people, maybe they should get longer sentences. Just an idea.

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[Anya Keen]

But from from there I I looked at him on newspapers.com really didn't find much in January 18, 1954. He's appears as having been admitted to the Whitley county hospital on Sunday, January 17th of that year. He's listed as being from Churubusco. That's a small rural town in Whitley County, Indiana, which is likely named, I imagine, for the 1847 Battle of Churubusco, where Winfield Scott, right. Everyone's favorite in the Mexican American War. His troops took heavy losses from pretty sustained Mexican resistance, but he did prevail. Gotta love Winfield Scott.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just. I just want to interrupt you to note the extreme enthusiasm you exhibited when you mentioned the name Winfield Scott. And you had a look on your face like you imagine the listener was also excited. Oh, boy, a Winfield Scott reference.

[Anya Keen]

All the Winfield Scott heads are going nuts right now. You can't see them, but they're all clapping and smiling and nodding their heads along with me. I'm sure we're going to get a lot of feedback where people are saying, you know what? The show's great. Love you guys. More Winfield Scott, please. He went to William and Mary like I did, so I always, always gotta tip the hat to him. And, you know, he was. He was the commanding. You know, he was in charge of the Union army in the beginning. Didn't work out for him, but, you know, he was very old. So in fairness, I think I see

[Kevin Greenlee]

behind you right now in our home, a future Anya coming to tap you on the shoulder and say, stop talking about him. Okay, let's move on from Winfield Scott.

[Anya Keen]

But he. This guy, this. This creep who's not an honorable general like Winfield Scott is listed in the Indian Columbia City, Indiana commercial mail as being an eighth grader from Churubusco in May 20, 1961. So he's got. He got married and divorced a whole bunch of times. I want to know if any. If, if, if any women who were with this guy want to talk to me. I would love to talk to you if anyone knew these people. I mean, I see he got divorced in 2020. It looks like he got divorced in, like, 2006. There was a bunch of, like, legal complaints and stuff. Small claims, nothing wild. The thing that was kind of most notable was aggravated battery and intimidation from 1993 prior to this murder and harassment in 1991. You know, usually these people are just violent misogynists. And I use misogynist because they mostly pick on women. But, you know, it's like it just escalates and. And I. That's why I'm personally, like, for much more strict sentences for those kinds of crimes. You know, like, it's just. I think those are some of the worst people in society. But, yeah, I'm. I'm curious in learning more, but I'm not sure if we ever will. Oftentimes people who know these people just are embarrassed to have known them and they just don't want to talk about it. So I understand that as well. My second. But anyways, I mean, I mean well done on, on everybody for figuring this one out. And also just like got poor. I just. Poor woman's family. I just feel so bad for her son and her just loved ones who, you know, this has sure been weighing on them for years. But I hope the answers give them some peace, even though this guy will never be held accountable for what he did to her. So the next incident is something we're covering on May 27, 2026. So I'm sure more details will be released between now and this cheat sheet going out. So just know that this is kind of an early draft, but I think it's important to talk about because it is a situation that you see a lot. But it's also another Indiana case, this time up in Hammond, Indiana. And my source for this is also a press release from the Indiana State Police from Sgt. Glenn Fifield dated May 26, 2026. Lot. Lot was going on today that day, unfortunately. I mean, I think the SACCO news was good in that they found the killer, but with this it was not good. So there was a shooting of a Indiana State Police trooper in Hammond. I'll kind of break down what happened and then we could maybe talk about it. So. And this trooper's not been named yet. I'm sure the name will come out before now and then. But you know, all we know right now is that they were a state trooper and this, they were a canine handler. So the. It was shortly after midnight, a state trooper conducted a traffic stop. This was Indianapolis Boulevard in Hammond. It was around, it was on i94 and it was at the EB and the 2.4 mile marker. So they stop a gray Hyundai Elantra. It's a traffic violation. And during this stop something's going wrong. So the trooper requests backup and assistance after dealing with two, what appear to be non compliant occupants in the vehicle. And the trooper actually holds these people at gunpoint. Things are that, you know, things are that out of control pretty quickly and, and told the dispatcher that, you know, needed other people to come and respond to this and that he had them at gunpoint. And a number of officers from other agencies arrived. Two officers from the Lake County Sheriff's Department. Lake county is where this occurred. An officer from the Hammond Police Department and they approach the vehicle and the driver of the Elantra produces a handgun and there is an exchange of gunfire between this driver and the officers. So the driver was struck by a bullet or bullets, it's unclear, by gunfire and died at the scene. And the handgun that he was shooting with was recovered from the scene. And the Indiana trooper was also shot and was shot in the chest and was taken to Munster Community Hospital for treatment and has been released. So he's okay. So that's good. But the, the shooter was identified, was, you know, taken to the Lake county coroner, was identified as 34 year old Aaron Barnes from Gary, Indiana. Autopsy there is pending as of right now and it's still being investigated. There was a 34 year old female passenger who was taken into custody and was taken to the Lake county jail on a 48 hour probable cause hold. It's no charges have been submitted at this point, but basically they have 48 hours to do so or they will be. This woman will be released. And so it's all very kind of like sketchy and preliminary. No other officers were injured. And while the K9 was president when, when this happened, the canine was not shot or injured either, but either way pretty scary situation. I don't know, I think these traffic stops, like you always like watch like shows and stuff and you're like, oh, everyone's like just shooting it out. But I feel like these traffic stops are like the probably. I don't know. My perception is like some of the most dangerous things because you never like you might just get, be pulling over someone normal or you might be pulling over someone that you're like is going to shoot you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You never know.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah. Which is scary. But I mean, I hope this trooper recovers. Okay. I just think this is, you know, it's a scary society when people are just like gonna start blasting over. Like a what? Like a traffic ticket. Like, who cares, right? Yeah. I just don't understand the mindset of like, yeah, I'm gonna blast my way out of this. Like he got himself like now he's dead and he shot somebody. Like what was the point of that? I don't know. Who knows?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who knows? Who's to say?

[Anya Keen]

Yep. Anyways, go. Let's take, let's get out of Indiana now. Indiana's getting chaotic. Let's go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You have become so homebound since our return from Crimecon.

[Anya Keen]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You just don't want to leave the state of Indiana? Well, guess what, sister, we're leaving Indiana now. We're hopping on the cane plain and we're heading down to North Carolina, which, as you like to remind me, is the home of many fish camps. This is where you would, like, go and you would get fish, and then you eat it, and then you get back in your car and you enjoy the rest of your day. That's my understanding of the fish camps. I went to a fish camp once, and I enjoyed it.

[Anya Keen]

I thought you said you weren't in love with the fish there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you don't have to marry each piece of fish. It wasn't like, oh, my God, this is the best fish ever. If it was, I probably would have quit my job and moved to the fish camp.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, you'd be camping out right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Keen]

I never have met you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. I'd be like the fish camp equivalent of one of those Grateful Dead followers. I'd just be following the fish camp from town to town, even though I don't think they move.

[Anya Keen]

But you still do it just. Just for the vibes. Yeah, I like it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. If it was the best, that's what I would do.

[Anya Keen]

I know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know it.

[Anya Keen]

I know. I know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm not saying it was the best fish ever. It was just. It was just good fish, good fish. Good, wholesome American fish. Well, I'm really glad there's nothing wrong with that. So what?

[Anya Keen]

I married an insane person?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're the one talking about alternate Kevin Zananyas from the future coming to give us their dark warnings about problems with the episode.

[Anya Keen]

Honestly, if we could have that as a feature. I mean, that would help us a lot if we could work that out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My source for this story is the Charlotte Observer. And then I also got some additional information for this from wbtv. This is another cold case. And the thing to remember about these cold cases is they're all tragedies. Whenever someone dies, that's a whole universe of men, memories and connections to others that is lost forever. That's always difficult, even if that happens under natural conditions. It's just especially awful and challenging when it's a murder and it happens in such a violent way. And then that becomes even worse when there's no answers. And they recently got some answers in a North Carolina case that's really haunted the community for almost 20 years now. This is a case that happened at the Sundrop Bottling Company all the way back in 2008. A woman named Donna Barnhart, who was the office manager, she was there. And also a guy named Darrell Knowles was at the plant applying for a job, and they were killed. They were killed on the morning of June 13, 2000. 8. And it's believed that they were killed during the course of a robbery. But for close to 20 years there were no answers. We still haven't gotten a lot of details about how answers have arrived, but there has been an arrest made. It is a 43 year old man named Johnny Stephen Talbert. I don't know if this was DNA or something else, but so far all we know is the police have indicated that this result came about through going back and looking at old leads and working the case more and figuring things out. One thing about Mr. Talbert that I think is worth noting noting he was arrested all the way across the country in Port Angeles, Washington. And Since November of 2011 he has had 288 contacts with the police department there, including 14 arrests and two of those arrests were on felony charges. So this is a person. We don't draw conclusions based on a person's character. You can be someone who's arrested all the time, that doesn't mean you necessarily committed every crime imaginable. But it does offer some insights into this person who is now facing these extraordinarily serious charges. And all I can say is I hope the families of the victims and I hope the community that has been looking for answers for so long, I hope this is the beginning of them finding some sort of closure.

[Anya Keen]

We don't live in a scary world in the sense that everyone's just nuts and running around doing stuff like this. It is a small percentage. And if someone cannot keep their life together in a way that they're having that much contact with police, I support just locking them up, like throw the book at them. It makes society better. People like this should not be roving around, you know, it makes life worse for everybody else. And at the worst, at like the most egregious, it leads to situations like what happened in North Carolina at the Sundrop factory where two innocent people, a woman doing her job and a man applying for a job were gunned down brutally. And it traumatized the community, their loved ones, everybody. Just so this guy could what, steal a couple bucks from the friggin vending machine? I mean, and if you're thinking, well that's a wild reason to kill people, people kill people for all, all kinds of dumb reasons. It's not, it's not elaborate like, it's not, it's not interesting most of the time it's just violent, horrible people doing violent, horrible things. And I don't know, it doesn't surprise me that they're a repeat offender. And I agree with you being a repeat offender can be someone with mental issues or whatever, but even then, it's like, I don't know, they shouldn't be out and victimizing everybody else in society. I'm sorry. Like, it's just. It's ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I want to cover one more case. This is a Michigan case, our neighbor to the north. My source for this was mlive and it touches on something you just mentioned before I get to that. I'm covering this case for a couple of different reasons, and one of which is simply the fact that the victim of this case deserves to be remembered. So what happened is a man named Omar Brogdon shot and killed a guy named Orhan Hosik. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing those names during a meetup to. To sell some goods on Facebook marketplace. Mr. Hosik is someone who had some challenges in his life. He had cancer when he was a child, and because of that, he had some facial disfigurement. I imagine that can be quite challenging to live with. So this is a guy who went through a lot in his life and by all accounts was doing well. And he certainly did not deserve to have his life snuffed out in this way. And he deserves to be remembered. And my heart and my sincerest good wishes go out to his family and all those who loved him. But now I want to talk about the other reason why I wanted to cover this case is because you may be wondering, why did this murder happen? Why? Why? Just because there's a Facebook marketplace deal. Why. Why would that result in murder? And what happened is these two men got into a discussion argument, what have you, over which sports car brand was better, Mercedes or BMW.

[Anya Keen]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's what led to the murder. And I wanted to highlight that because I think a lot of us who are, for lack of a better word, normal and who are rational, relative term, and who spend time, you know, contemplating mysteries, either real life mysteries or fictional mysteries. When there is a crime, we want to say, well, why did this happen? What was the motive? And maybe unconsciously, we have an expectation that the motive is going to make sense. Like, ah, yes, he killed him because he was about to expose Richardson's role in the Hendrickson affair. It makes. Makes perfect sense.

[Anya Keen]

Makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But in real life, oftentimes there is not much of a motive. In real life, there are a lot of murders that happen because of this, because a couple of guys got into a stupid argument and it went too far. And if you have expectations when you look at a crime, that there is going to be some big elaborate motive that is going to make perfect sense to you. You may be setting yourself up for disappointment. And I feel that some people, in some discussions I see in the true crime space, they take the attitude of, oh, there is not a big elaborate motive that explains this person's role in this crime. Therefore, this person must be innocent and must be being set up. So I think when people have the expectation of a motive that is elaborate and makes sense and that expectation is not met, it sometimes leads them to bad conclusions. I just suggest, remember the tragic tale of Mr. Hosik, who lost his life for just a stupid reason and realized there were a lot of other people out there who are in that position. A lot of lives are lost for either no reason or the stupidest reasons imaginable.

[Anya Keen]

You know, I'm going to say this, and I think you're absolutely right, and I'm glad you called that out, because I hate when I see that in true crime. It's like you're trying to apply, like, Columbo, fictional, satisfying conclusions to real life. And the reality of life is that a decent amount, a decent subset of the US Adult population, especially males, are emotionally unregulated children, you know, in adult bodies, and they don't know how to handle anger or conflict, and they have access to weapons that then they can use, and that's it. And it's sad. I mean, you kind of think maybe if those people had gotten some support or maybe, maybe, maybe if, like, like, I don't know, they'd gotten some, something, some support earlier in life, maybe they wouldn't have turned out so such a mess where they might, like, resolve their problems with violence. But that's not the world we live in. That's not what happened. And they act upon it. And it's. It's sad when I, when, you know, I just. I. It stinks. But I don't. I think that's kind of what we're seeing here. And it's like when you're trying to apply, almost like intellectual. Intellectualize it and like, well, I would never kill anyone over a car argument. It's like, yeah, but I might kill

[Kevin Greenlee]

somebody if they were going to expose my role in the Hendrickson effect.

[Anya Keen]

I know. I mean, who, who amongst us wouldn't kill to not be exposed in the Hendricks Fair? But, you know, you're applying, like, your own background and moral grounding and emotional regulation and intellectual ability that. And you're making a lot of assumptions that other People are exactly like you when they're probably not. If they find themselves in this situation, they're probably struggling with at least some of what I just said and you

[Kevin Greenlee]

know, anger or what have you.

[Anya Keen]

Anger or. For a lot of people, you know, like low intelligence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Frankly, for a lot of people, the motive is just somehow sexual.

[Anya Keen]

Well, that's the other, that's what drives me crazy when people are like, well, why would he do this? It's like to, to achieve orgasm at the expense of another human being. You know, why would you do the sexual crime? That's why. It's very simple. Like it's not, you know, and you know, there might be like a power and control thing going on too. It's not necessarily always just, just the sex, but it's. I think people over complicate this stuff in a big way. And part of not over complicating it is just recognizing that you're not going to really fully understand some of this because you're just different position. And that's what I've had to do because I, I used to do this too. I'd be like, why? Why would you do what? There must be something more to it and there just isn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think a lot of people, unconsciously, without even realizing it, when you're, when you're trying to analyze a motive for why someone did something, I think there's a part of you saying, what would make me do this? And you need to remember you wouldn't do this.

[Anya Keen]

No, you wouldn't do it. You're not gonna do this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there's, there's nothing good enough. And the sort of people who would do this, they don't need as much of a compelling reason as you might need.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, and that's absolutely right. And you know, I just think you have to, you know, and this is where I think like there is something to be said though for trying to raise children, especially boys. Because I mean like, let's be honest, men are doing the crimes, folks. I mean there's. No, I'm not. Before anyone comes at me and calls me a feminazi like murder, rape, robbery, vast majority of perpetrators are male. That doesn't mean there aren't awful women who do awful things who should also be, you know, condemned. I agree with that. But like, but, but raising boys in a way that kind of, you know, takes care of them and takes care of their emotional well being especially and helps them deal with those, those feelings of anger or sadness or rejection in a way that's healthy. And doesn't lead them into a life of crime and evil is, I think, a really important and worthwhile task because, you know, it's just. I just think a lot of it's just not being able to, like, process some of that stuff, you know, that everyone has to face in a fully formed adult. And most men, I would say, could probably deal with it, but you have this subset where they're just not able to. And it's just sad, you know, I mean, like, with this thing, it's like, I don't know if, if the men involved, if the, if the perpetrator wasn't, like, a repeat offender, if this was the first time. I, I, I think it's horrible what he did, but I also, I feel bad for anybody who's, like, living their life where they're, like, reacting to just an argument this way. It's like, what, what could.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, because it's literally okay if someone has a different opinion about cars than

[Anya Keen]

you do, it makes me feel like, okay, this person was not, for whatever reason, whatever they had going on, and I don't know the specifics, they were not given the tools to deal with reality. And, and that's. There's something sad. What a wasted life that you're, you're rightfully going to prison now, and you should be. And you shouldn't be allowed out, in my view, because this is so stupid. At the same time, it's like, it's just sad. It's just sad all around. It's a tragedy, you know, And I just feel like, I don't know, a lot of. A lot of people are in that boat. And that's why it's like, you know, sometimes I feel like the United States in particular, especially since we're, like, awash in guns and we're awash in, like, emotionally unregulated males, it's just like we kind of still have that wild, wild west vibe. Because wasn't that what that was all about? Everyone's just shooting each other, you know, because they're mad at a saloon or whatever. I feel like we never, We. We still have that a little bit at the core of our society of, like, you know, oh, but this card game didn't go for me. Da, da, da, da. You know, and it's just like, that's. I don't, I don't love that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, Anya, on another matter entirely, I wanted to give you kudos. You've become quite a chef, quite a cook.

[Anya Keen]

What is going on? This isn't an ad, folks. I don't know what's happening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, just you've been cooking more lately. The other day my parents came here and you treated them to your famous five alarm chicken, your six alarm bread, your seven alarm baked beans. Everybody loved it. You were the toast of the town.

[Anya Keen]

That's very sweet of you. I just want to note none of these things were spicy, so there were no alarms involved. But Kevin likes to call everything I make five alarm.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You were the toast of the town.

[Anya Keen]

Well, that's very sweet of you. I love your parents, and I wanted to, you know, make them feel like they had a nice dinner here and

[Kevin Greenlee]

should people, like, send in recipes for you to try?

[Anya Keen]

Um, I don't. I'm not a very good chef. I don't. Hope you're a good chef. No, I'm learning. Trying to make more bread, honestly, I'm just trying to have us eat healthier, so just trying to and. And save some money, folks. So I think just, you know, trying to cook at home more and, and, and make it good food so we don't feel like we're being punished.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you think there might be, like, good recipes you could try with, like, Mr. Pibbie? Like putting Mr. Pibb as a seasoning or perhaps as a glaze on something?

[Anya Keen]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See that, that would be a memorable dinner. You wouldn't even need any alarms.

[Anya Keen]

No alarms.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You just call it bottles. This is a five bottle Mr. Pibb chicken or whatever.

[Anya Keen]

Five Pibs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Keen]

Well, I mean, if anyone has any suggestions, I mean, you're very particular in what you like, so a lot of things will get just shot out of the sky immediately based on your specifications. Your dad, this. Is this his dad. He's like, wow, Kevin's eating chicken. And I was just like, wow. Okay. Apparently there's been some massive character development.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There have been some incidents in the past we don't need to go into. But all I say is if you have a recipe where like one of the key ingredients is Mr. Pip, how can I not love that?

[Anya Keen]

So I guess murder sheet Chefs get on it. Let's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Keen]

What? I don't even. I, you know, I mean, I'm. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because I've gone to great effort and personal expense to ensure that we have a steady supply of Pip. We've got a lot of Mr. Pip, even though it's not the easiest thing to find around here.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I can sacrifice some of that for you to make your 5 bottle PIB chicken or what have You.

[Anya Keen]

Okay, well, I. Challenge accepted. I can. You know, I could try to do that. Hopefully it wouldn't turn totally disgusting. Sounds kind of awful to me. But also, I'm not. I'm willing to try it. I'm scared, though.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Speaking of challenges accepted, now that Crimecon is in the rearview mirror, now that we're back from Nevada, are you ready to strap on your pouches and either head to Baggerstown or head to the private home of a listener and settle this once and for all?

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, we're actually just choosing a listener at random. You're not going to invite us? We're just going to show up? No. Can you imagine if we did that? That would be so terrifying. Oh, my gosh. That's like, literally, like, why are they at my door? Why are they holding a big cornhole thing? I'm sorry. We wouldn't do that to you guys. But we. Yeah, I'm. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm. I'm worried that I've overstated my prowess and that I'm going to, like, humiliate myself, because that's usually what happens.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I think we all assume that's what's going to happen, and so I'm giving you another chance to back out.

[Anya Keen]

No, I'm not going to back out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because if you look at me, you say to yourself, there's a guy that knows how to cornhole.

[Anya Keen]

That knows how to cornhole.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Exactly.

[Anya Keen]

That sounds weird. I don't know. Well, I mean, people have literally complained because now they're getting a bunch of weird ads for cornhole stuff. So I apologize to all the listeners. We really owe everybody, like, a huge apology for that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So. Yeah, the things we say, if you like playing it in front of your Alexa or whatever, it triggers ads. So should we. Like, what kind of things would people like to hear ads for? We can talk about that.

[Anya Keen]

I don't know. We're really trying to optimize for the audience. I don't know. I hate when the. I hate when my phone does that, because I've had that happen to me. Like, I'll be talking about something really specific, and then suddenly it's like, ads. It's like, oh, like what? Creepy. I don't like that. I don't know how to stop it, though. So I apologize to all the people. I apologize so sincerely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Why didn't one of your fancy future Anyas come back and warn us not to talk about corn?

[Anya Keen]

I don't know. I don't. Well, why? Why are they fancy? Also, Aren't you with me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think these future Anyas have let us all down. I am furious with future Anya.

[Anya Keen]

Well, maybe you shouldn't be criticizing her too much because she's going to be making you your PIB glazed chicken monstrosity. That's going to go horribly wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. That's a promise.

[Anya Keen]

Sensitive Anya.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Everybody has heard Anya committing to making a five bottle PIB chicken.

[Anya Keen]

I think you're making everyone sick listening to this. People are probably already gone. But, you know, I just. I don't. We'll see. And I don't want it to like you make dinner, too. It's not all me, you know, I don't want it to sound. You're. You're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you know, Anya, I can praise you without diminishing my smile.

[Anya Keen]

I know, but like, I'm just saying, you do a lot of hard work in the kitchen, too, and I appreciate that. I don't. I don't want it to sound like I'm the only one doing. I've been. I've been a little more experimental with what I'm doing. But you've been. You've been making some nice food.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because I'm not as experimental. I would never do anything as crazy as use Mr. Pim to make chicken. That just seems to me to be kind of disgusting. But you've heard Anya. She's enthusiastic about it. So that's the difference between us. I'll only make things that I know are going to be really good.

[Anya Keen]

You're the worst. You're the absolute worst. Oh, my gosh. I want to make you. I'm going to. For the record, I'm going to make him eat the. This freaking PIB chicken. I don't know what's wrong with you. I just. You're just an insane person and that's all. But I made that choice. And I own it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're beefing up our premium content. We offer premium content on Patreon and Apple. It's ad free. It's early episodes. We're also starting to do extra episodes. If by the time this episode is released, we have done at least one bonus episode from Crimecon.

[Anya Keen]

We better have. Unless something went really wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so, depending on how that episode turned out, either you're welcome or we're sorry.

[Anya Keen]

Or both. Yeah, I never. I never know. I never know. I always worry, like, someone's coming. Like, you know, the number of times that someone's been talking to us and. Oh, yeah, like, I checked you guys out and we're like, cool. What episode did you listen to? Oh, the Last Cheat Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm like, oh, yeah, I listened to one where Adi was insisting that she was gonna put Mr. Pibb in a chicken.

[Anya Keen]

It's like, it's always inevitably somebody that, you know, it's like, we really want to take us seriously. Like, hi, I'm a journalist, I'm an attorney. We wrote this really good book about Delphi. We did all this. We appeared on this TV show. And then it's like. And it's like it's never.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I listened to your thoughtful, detailed analysis.

[Anya Keen]

I listened to this, a really impressive interview you got. Or the Temujin Kenzu or the. The Delphi coverage. It's always like, I heard anya talk

[Kevin Greenlee]

about Mr. Pib Chicken because we're talking

[Anya Keen]

a lot about time traveling in cornhole and it's like, no, but, you know, hopefully. So if you're a first time listener, we're sorry. Not all the episodes are like this. All right, are we done?

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're done.

[Anya Keen]

On that note, can't believe you committed me to this disgusting PIB situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I see the eerie hand of future Anya reaching towards the button.

[Anya Keen]

Yeah, well, I wish she'd hit it sooner.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Keen]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Keen]

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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