The Cheat Sheet: Tapes and Traffickers

Summary

Murder Sheet: The Cheat Sheet – Tapes and Traffickers

Release Date: January 9, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee

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Episode Overview

In this multifaceted episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee tackle several true crime stories ranging from a polarizing police shooting acquittal in Texas to the tragic double homicide of Hollywood royalty, the infamous Pamela Smart case, and insights into the realities of sex trafficking. As usual, Cain and Greenlee apply their journalistic and legal backgrounds to provide thoughtful analysis, interweaving case details with commentary on broader systemic issues—particularly around mental illness and criminal justice. The episode is rich in editorial insight, memorable exchanges, and research.

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1. Texas Police Shooting: Officer Christopher Taylor & Dr. Maurice Da Silva

(Start – 36:07)

Context & Case Overview

• Incident: July 31, 2019, Dr. Maurice Da Silva, a respected biomedical engineer in Austin, Texas, experiences a severe mental health crisis, brandishing a knife in his luxury condominium.
• Police Involved: Officers Christopher Taylor and Carl Croissia respond. Encounter ends in Da Silva being shot and killed.
• Legal Timeline: Taylor was cleared initially, later indicted after a change in District Attorney (DA Jose Garza). Eventually convicted, but the verdict was overturned on appeal.

Key Discussion Points

• Bodycam Analysis
  Áine describes the incident in detail, emphasizing the rapid escalation and officers' split-second decision-making as Da Silva turned toward them with a knife:

  “Watching the video, the guy's clearly holding a knife and he's coming toward them. That, to me, seems like the most important thing that happened here.” (24:10)

• Mental Health & Policing
  Substantial time is spent reflecting on what brought Da Silva—who had a record of severe mental health distress and prior police interventions—to this fatal encounter.
  Áine’s heartfelt editorial:

  “I blame society. … I think we failed Dr. De Silva long before he picked up that knife… If we want to spare those who suffer from mental disorders like Dr. Da Silva, we must do better by them.” (23:36–34:46)

• Justice System Reactions

  • Initial internal investigation found the officers' actions justified.
  • DA Garza seeks indictment and prosecution—the “politically motivated” nature of this is dissected, especially after Taylor’s ultimate acquittal by appellate court.
  • Áine critiques the impulse to prosecute officers purely as scapegoats in situations born of societal failings, not criminal intent.

• Broader Implications

  • Support for robust mental health interventions and reform.
  • The inadequacy of “band-aid” reforms, like basic crisis team training, in the absence of systemic investment.

Notable Quotes

• Áine Cain: “It's like frankly using a baseball bat to open up a pickle jar. Yeah, you might open up the pickle jar, but at what freaking cost?” (26:18)
• Kevin Greenlee: “It's hard to understand why this case got charged.” (30:03)

Timestamps

• [02:14] Case introduction & timeline
• [06:45] Bodycam footage analysis
• [09:13] Officer Taylor’s history and departmental response
• [13:00] Legal proceedings & grand jury discussion
• [21:38] Acquittal and appellate opinion
• [23:36–34:46] Editorial commentary on mental health, criminal justice, and societal responsibility

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2. Hollywood Tragedy: The Reiner Murders

(36:07 – 49:08)

Context & Case Outline

• Incident: December 14, Rob and Michelle Reiner are murdered in California. Their son Nick, who has severe addiction and mental health issues, is charged.
• Impact: National shock given Rob Reiner’s fame; personal resonance for families coping with addiction and mental illness.

Key Discussion Points

• Addiction & Mental Health in Families
  Áine and Kevin discuss the emotional toll and helplessness families experience navigating a loved one’s addiction and mental illness—even when armed with resources.

• Legal Defense Dynamics

  • Notable defense attorney Alan Jackson initially represented Nick, then withdrew (likely due to estate law and financial complications).
  • Possible defense: Diminished capacity due to mental illness and recent medication changes.

• Editorial Reflections
  Both discuss the painful reality for families caught between wanting to help and fearing for their safety.

Notable Quotes

• Áine Cain: “This story plays out in America everywhere... And it’s something we should be talking about because if it can happen to the Reiners, it's certainly happening to everyone else.” (41:37)
• Kevin Greenlee: “The vast majority of families in this situation don't even have the resources the Reiners had, and it still wasn't enough.” (42:06)

Timestamps

• [36:10] Introduction & summary
• [39:35] Discussion of addiction and family impact
• [44:29] Defense attorney withdrawal and legal implications
• [47:16] Commentary on defense strategy and family struggles

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3. Pamela Smart: Revisiting an Infamous Case

(49:08 – 57:34)

Context

• Case Background: Pamela Smart, a school staff member, was convicted of conspiring with her 15-year-old lover to kill her husband, Gregory Smart, in 1990. The case is notorious for its media attention and cultural impact.
• Legal Update: Smart’s legal team files habeas motions claiming unfair trial due to ambiguous wiretaps and jury transcript use.

Key Discussion Points

• Media, Memory, & Gendered Judgments
  The hosts revisit how Smart’s gender shaped perceptions of her as both manipulator and child predator, and offer direct critique of her non-apology statements during clemency bids.
• Habeas Grounds
  Discussion of the wiretap transcript issue: defense argues transcripts predisposed the jury to “hear” incriminating words.

Notable Quotes

• Kevin Greenlee: “Sometimes people try to create an impression with words that may not be what they're actually saying.” (54:21)
• Áine Cain: “She's a child predator… we should have the same reaction as we would with a male teacher preying on a young girl.” (55:24)

Timestamps

• [50:15] Pamela Smart background recap
• [53:00] Gender and responsibility
• [55:25] Latest legal maneuvers

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4. Sex Trafficking & Prosecution in Texas

(58:02 – 66:01)

Context

• Case Overview: Emily Hutchins, 25, pleads guilty to aggravated promotion of prostitution in Tarrant County, Texas—receives 30-year sentence.
• Why It Matters: This case exemplifies the real modus operandi of sex trafficking (coercion, manipulation, exploitation), contrasting with common myths of stranger abduction.

Key Discussion Points

• How Trafficking Really Works
  Áine emphasizes that real trafficking is usually not about dramatic public kidnappings but about exploiting the vulnerable with threats, blackmail, and coercion:

  “…it's not a mysterious man who's gonna just, you know, grab someone off the street… It's, you know, okay, you can work for me, but I'm going to take most of the money. If you leave, you can't because I'll ruin you to your family and friends.” (61:53)

• Sentencing and Legal Strategy
  – Harsh sentence (30 years) indicates seriousness of exploitation. – Discussion of the plea deal and prosecution priorities.

• Policy Reflection
  Balanced approach to debates about sex work legalization, but firm about the seriousness of coercion and abuse.

Notable Quotes

• Áine Cain: “When we don't know what something looks like, we don't know how to respond to the threat.” (59:11)
• Kevin Greenlee: “Absolutely.” (65:38, on the importance of strong prosecution in coercive trafficking cases)

Timestamps

• [58:19] Case intro and overview
• [60:50] How traffickers operate
• [61:53] Legal ramifications and societal response

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5. Personal: Coping with Loss, New Beginnings, and Light Moments

(66:01 – End)

Context

• The hosts share a heartfelt thank you to listeners for their support after the loss of their dog, Lanny.
• Discussion on adopting a new shelter dog, Nick, and the challenge/reward of training a young, energetic pet.
• Light banter about movies, their relationship, and Kevin’s brush with motorcycle adventure provide a warm close.

Notable Quotes

• Áine Cain: "I like to think we’re honoring [Lanny’s] legacy by adopting another pup." (74:52)
• Kevin Greenlee: "There's so many dogs in the Humane Society that need help and need good homes." (68:23)

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Memorable Moments

• On societal failure to address mental illness: “We use the police, the criminal justice system, and prison… We wait until someone’s a threat or in crisis or [has] done a crime, and then the end result is usually that mentally ill person ends up tried, convicted, imprisoned.” (26:43)
• On legal language: Kevin illustrates how careful parsing is needed when attorneys speak publicly, drawing parallels to his own cereal-theft hypothetical. (46:29)

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Summary Table of Major Cases Covered

| Case | Location | Key Issue | Outcome | Segment Start | |-------------------------------------|--------------|------------------------------------------|-----------------|--------------| | Maurice Da Silva (Taylor shooting) | Austin, TX | Officer-involved shooting; mental health | Acquittal | 02:14 | | Rob & Michelle Reiner Homicides | California | Addiction/mental illness & parricide | Pending; public defender | 36:10 | | Pamela Smart Case | NH/NY | Habeas petition on wiretap fairness | Still appeals | 49:08 | | Emily Hutchins Pimping/Trafficking | Tarrant, TX | Aggravated promotion of prostitution | 30-year plea | 58:19 |

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Overall Tone & Approach

Áine and Kevin balance deep empathy for both victims and defendants, particularly where mental illness and addiction are factors, with clear-eyed legal analysis and unsparing criticism of systems that repeatedly fail vulnerable people. Though the podcast often tackles grim material, the hosts’ banter and personal stories provide humanity and relief.

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For more information, follow The Murder Sheet or reach out via their email and social platforms (details in the outro).

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya.

[Anya Cain]

I'm Anya. And today we're going to be talking about a high profile Hollywood case, an acquittal out of Texas, a sex trafficking case, also out of the Lone Star State, and an infamous murder that's now back in the limelight. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of suicide, mental illness, rape, the sexual abuse of children, sex trafficking and murder, and general violence. So we're going to be going to Texas twice for my cases. So I'm. I'm keeping things pretty locked down in the Lone Star State. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're starting in Texas, then you're sending me around the country. And I guess you're just hanging out in Texas because then you want to finish in Texas, too. I don't think it makes sense.

[Anya Cain]

Well, you know what? Maybe I. Maybe I just need some time to kind of unwind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You want to relax and not deal with you. Well, I mean, if you start wearing cowboy hats, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Anya Cain]

No, I don't want to start wearing that. That would. I would look like a huge poser. I'm from the Northeast. I live in Indiana. There's no reason for me if people want to wear cowboy hats. That's wonderful, but I feel like I would be living a lie.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you'd be looking great while you do it.

[Anya Cain]

Wow, you're just. You're such an odd man. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the cheat sheet. Tapes and traffickers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Take it away. Take us to Texas.

[Anya Cain]

I'm taking us to Texas and Lone Star State. And Kevin, we. We were sick over the holidays. So Kevin will have a cough now that lingers for what, until 2027?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. When I get sick, I cough forever.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Which is a wonderful thing as a podcaster.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm very old.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Falling apart.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Falling apart on my last legs in this life.

[Anya Cain]

It's true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I drag myself to this golden microphone.

[Anya Cain]

The golden microphone. So my sources for this first one out of Texas are kxan. I don't know how to say that. K View, the Austin American Statesman, and then access through newspapers.com the El Paso Times, the Corpus Christi Collar Times, the San Angelo Standard Times, the Houston Chronicle, as well as the appeal from the Court of Appeals of the 7th district of Texas at Amarillo. So this is the case of an officer involved shooting let's start off with the first sentence of the appeal or of the appellate decision, which I found very interesting and grabbing. Quote, this case comes down to a single unavoidable question. When an elevator door opens to reveal a man holding a knife who turns toward officers and advances, may an officer reasonably believe deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent murder? The jury concluded no. End quote. So what. What is this case? Let's get into the basic facts, and then we're going to kind of go through everything. And what's happened recently in this case. To start off with, it goes back to a man named Dr. Maurice Da Silva. He was 46 years old. He started having a mental health episode on July 31, 2019, at his condominium on Bowie street in Austin, Texas. This is a luxury condo downtown. And Dr. Da Silva had a history of mental health episodes. This was not the first time. We'll get more into that later. And a number of officers responded to a call where people. I believe a neighbor called it in. And Da Silva was wandering the hallways. He was in the lobby with a knife to his neck. And when officers Christopher Taylor and Carl Croissia responded, the security guard there told them, well, he's gone back to his apartment. So they believe, okay, it's contained at this point. They call for more backup. More officers are coming, and, you know, that's not as much of a threat as they're kind of planning to figure out what to do next. The security guard lets them know, actually, the suspects, you know, left his apartment, and he's got a knife. So Da Silva's back out. He's back having this mental health crisis, has a knife to his neck. And obviously, when someone's then leaving where they were, they're no longer contained. This is more of a threat situation. He went to the fifth floor of this apartment complex that was a place where people could go to the gym, they could go to the pool. So it's a possible area where there might be people at risk with this person holding a knife and behaving in an erratic fashion. So the officers go on the elevator up to intercept the suspect. And I believe it was like, four Austin police department officers, Taylor and Chrysia being two of them. And then the security guard. And then the elevator doors open. And immediately they see Dr. Da Silva holding a knife to his neck. And this is. We know what happens next because there's body cam footage, and I've reviewed that. So in the body cam footage, you see the elevator doors open. You see that they're on the fifth floor, you see a guy in a grayish shirt and a black shorts, like, standing in the hallway. He's bald. He's turned away from the elevator, and he's, like, looking in a mirror at himself. He's holding a knife in his right hand, and it's clearly raised and it's pointed up toward his chin. So the one of the police officers says, let me see your hands. And you can see them point a gun at him. Da Silva turns, and at this point, you can actually see the police officer in the mirror, too. You hear someone yell, drop it. Da Silva starts turning and stepping towards the elevator. He takes a step towards the elevator. He is still holding the knife. He is lowering it, but he's walking. So it's like, you know, that that's all important. Then there are a bunch of gunshots, and he crumples. This video is extremely fast. This is an extremely fast sequence of events. What I've just described maybe sounds longer, but it really was not a long time. And, I mean, what are your initial thoughts on this kind of situation?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It sounds really complicated and really frightening.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's. It's a mess. So some background on Da Silva. He was previously, you know, he had previously gotten what was called an emotionally disturbed person intervention by Austin Police Department in May of 2019, two months before his death. He was also committed to emergency detention on July 7, 2019. So there's been, you know, there was a history of this kind of ramping up. One thing that's been talked about a lot is why did the officers go up in the elevator rather than the stairs? That sort of pinned them in immediately. On the one hand, there seemed to be urgency about intercepting him, and an elevator is going to take you there faster. But obviously, in this instance, given that he was standing right by the elevator, it proved to be a problem. So tactically, that's been something that's been discussed. People also have asked, why no pepper spray? Why not just pepper spray the guy? I think people who ask that do not know how pepper spray works. If you pepper spray somebody and you're in an elevator, that would. You'd be pepper spraying yourself, and that would create more of a dangerous situation. Some background on Christopher Taylor. He had been on the force since 2014, so he was there for five years at that point. And after looking at all of this evidence in this situation, the Austin Police Department cleared him of wrongdoing and cleared the other officers of wrongdoing within months. Prosecutors at that time told Da Silva's family that they did not think a grand jury would find probable cause for any sort of charges filed against the officers. And at some point in the future, then Taylor was promoted to the rank of detective. So he seemed to be succeeding within the department. Any thoughts on any of that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. There was also another incident, another separate shooting involving Taylor. So this one took place in April 24, 2020. This was after the De Silva shooting, obviously. And this involved a 42 year old man named Michael Ramos. He was shot by police outside an Austin apartment complex. A 911 caller had reported that he was. Had a gun and was using drugs. So the officers arrived there thinking that he has a gun. And you know, that turned out not to be true. He did not have a gun, but that was what. That was the information that they had going into it. So Ramos, in the initial interaction, gets out of the car, has his hands up, has his shirt raised up to show his waistband, seemingly to show that he did not have a gun tucked in there. But he also did not comply with officers orders to stay outside his car. Initially, they shot a less lethal round at him, and then he got in his vehicle and began driving away. At that point, Christopher Taylor shot him several times and, and Chrysio was there as well. Again in that situation. Austin Police department investigated. Their internal report said that Taylor's use of force was justified because he had a reason to believe Ramos was trying to use the vehicle as a deadly weapon against his fellow officers at the scene. And this fueled protests over police brutality. Ramos was black and Hispanic. And there, you know, 2020, we all remember there was a lot of discussion about lethal incidents involving police and people of color. So this was part of that. But yeah, so this is where things kind of, then kind of there starts to be some legal action. So as we mentioned, the prosecutors, the prosecutor at the time did not charge Taylor or, or anybody for these incidents. And he, they were cleared within the department. Then in 2021, Travis County, Texas had a new district attorney and that was Jose Garza. And he took the, the case of the Ramos shooting to a grand jury. And Chrysia and Taylor were both indicted by that grand jury. So when we're talking about a grand jury, what does that, what does that mean exactly for people who are like. Is that like a normal jury? What's going on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

A grand jury is a group of citizens who a prosecutor will present a case to and in theory is like, oh, what, what do we do? What do you think? And then the grand jury may say, well, considering this Evidence, we think these charges are appropriate.

[Anya Cain]

What's the stereotype about grand juries?

[Kevin Greenlee]

The stereotype about a grand jury is that they do whatever a prosecutor wants. And so if you're, again, this is just the stereotype.

[Anya Cain]

It's not always true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not always true by a long shot. The stereotype would be, if you're a prosecutor and there is a tough case that you want to have some sort of COVID for making a charging decision on that may or may not be popular, you can present it to the grand jury. You say, well, it's the grand jury that made this decision, not me.

[Anya Cain]

So you might be, you know, if you don't really want to bring charges or you don't think it's a good case, bringing you to a grand jury and kind of being like, well, I don't know about this guy. The grand jury might very well be like, yeah, I don't know about this. But at the same time, the joke is, you know, a prosecutor could get a grand jury to convict a ham sandwich.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And of course, there are some pretty well known examples of times when a grand jury recommended charges and the prosecutor didn't file those charges. Like in the John Bonnet Ramsey case.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. They recommended, I believe, child neglect charges filed against the Ramsey parents, and that did not happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

So this is a case where. So in this case, they, they did actually, you know, they did go to trial. So oddly enough, even though both were involved in the shooting, they only really moved forward with the Taylor charges. The Ramos shooting was caught on the cell phone footage, and initially Taylor was charged with murder. Then they moved to deadly conduct, which is when someone rec in Texas, someone recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily harm. The Ramos trial started in October 6, on October 16, 2023, concluded on within mid November. And they actually had an initial mistrial due in jury selection, but then the second one, it ended in a hung jury. Four days of deliberations, eight for acquittal, four for conviction. So at that point, Garza's office brought it back to a grand jury and at that point they returned no bill. So that means they weren't going to go forward with it. And, you know, the, the, the question with this, where prosecutors were arguing that Taylor's use of force was not reasonable because Ramos was simply attempting to flee the scene in his Toyota Prius. The defense said Taylor feared for his life and that of his fellow officers and that a vehicle can be a deadly weapon and it was justified.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

I love my Quint's clothes. They've all held up great and I find myself wearing them a lot. They've been my go tos this winter. From my three Mongolian cashmere sweaters to including a fisherman crew neck sweater in ivory that I love to my new washable silk black dress. One of my latest finds is a hundred percent washable silk miniskirt to pair with that fisherman crew neck sweater and presumably a bunch of other tops I own. I really love finding staples I can wear again and again on quints.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And of course, Anya's also added to her burgeoning beret collection with yet another beret in a new color. Can't wait for her to wear that.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

So into true crime that you kind of get extra careful about stuff, Making sure you're not followed. For instance, staying situationally aware. And of course, checking the locks on your doors and windows before bed. Better safe than sorry, right? Because we all know bad stuff can and unfortunately does happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

So protect your home with SimpliSafe and get 50% off any new system for a limited time. Just go to simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. That's what happened with that one. But then they brought back the Da Silva case. Right. So I should say in the meantime, Da Silva's father also sued the city of Austin and Taylor in Chrysia for a wrongful death lawsuit. He said that they used excessive force in shooting his son, that they should have brought a mental health officer, that one was on duty that night, but did not respond to this, and that they had no basis to believe that their lives or the lives of others were in danger from Da Silva. So that's. That's a civil lawsuit that's still ongoing. Weirdly enough, again with Da Silva. Travis County District Attorney's office dismissed the case against Officer Carl Craicia. They basically made this deal where he had to participate in a new use of force training program and give trainings himself. But then they went forward with the Taylor charges. Some have pointed out that this is odd because they did the same thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is odd.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You know, and why is one guy, you know, if. If what he. If what Taylor did was a crime and so serious, you know, when there's like a difference in like a split sex session, split second in reaction time, it just sort of seems odd. Anyways, so then Taylor was then tried for the Da Silva case. So the Garza DA's office tried him for that. Then they didn't get him on Ramos. But with Da Silva, there was a different outcome. The defense argued in the Da Silva case that Da Silva was less than 5ft away from the elevator and had a knife and that the prosecutors countered that Da Silva was complying because he. While he was stepping forward towards the elevator, he was lowering his knife. And the prosecutor on this who gave the closing argument was Rob Drummond. He said that Taylor was not entitled to shoot the defendant. Some reasons he gave was because the officers should have taken the stairs and failed to adequately question the person who was able to talk to Silva down earlier that day. The jury proceeded to deliberate for about four days and then came back on October 5 with a guilty verdict. Now, again, he was not convicted of murder. This was the. The. The kind of lesser charge of, I believe it was reckless deadly conduct, rather. So Taylor's convicted, then he is sentenced. So at the sentencing hearing, which he was sentenced on December 2, 2024. So pretty recently there were different witnesses called, including former Travis County District attorney Margaret Moore, who was there prior to Garza. She did not press charges against him. And I think there was some issue where like, the judge had to recuse herself because she had worked with Moore. But anyways, she was like, there to be like, well, we didn't charge him. And then there was also a APD detective, Brian Martin, who testified about how, you know, basically a suspect can clear a lot of distance very quickly with a knife, and therefore, you know, if you're like five feet away from somebody with a knife, use of deadly force is justified. Now, Travis county judge Dana Blazey ruled that she could not legally just give Taylor probation because that there was an express deadly weapon finding within the verdict, even though that they not did not include that in its verdict. So she gave him two years in prison, and that's the minimum prison time for a third degree felony. And he appealed the ruling and then was out on appellate bond, but he was fired from the Austin Police Department as a result of that. What are your thoughts so far?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a wild story.

[Anya Cain]

What do you mean wild?

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of twists and turns and a lot of complicated things going on. I really appreciate you.

[Anya Cain]

I went down the rabbit hole on this. Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Anya spent a lot more time preparing.

[Anya Cain]

This than I should have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought this episode would be recorded hours ago. But I appreciate your hard work.

[Anya Cain]

So now. Now what's happened? What's going on right now? Well, this case is back in the news because as I, I started reading the appellate court finding earlier, and they have ordered Taylor acquitted. So he's acquitted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What?

[Anya Cain]

What? You know, they started by saying, hey, the jury thought one thing, but quote, the record and the governing law compel the opposite, end quote. So the appeals court completely acquitted Taylor and they have, you know, acquitted him of the felony deadly conduct conviction and he cannot be retried for the 2019 shooting. Now, now Garza has released a statement saying this is absurd and accusing the. The judges of being politically motivated and conservative. And he has said that, you know, that this is inappropriate. Obviously, it's a huge blow to what he did here because it's basically saying. It's basically appeals court justices saying that he didn't follow the law at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's a huge blow indeed.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that is. I mean, it's really, you know, and this had been a very big conviction for his office because, I mean, I think they said it was maybe like the first time an on duty Austin police officer was convicted of a felony from a fatal shooting. And, you know, that was kind of a big part of his campaign and sort of his platform. I, you know, and again, this was through the seventh court of Appeals. So the. The third court of appeals is the one that's usually dealing with Austin, but it was. It was moved as part of a process called docwit docket equalization. And, you know, it's balancing workloads. So it went to Amarillo instead of. I guess, like, for me, I. I have some opinions on this that I wanted to share. I hope that's okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please do.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You know, because I. I looked online about this when I saw this initially, and I saw some interesting things. I mean, I saw people, you know, in. In some of the comments of the earlier trials and whatnot, talking about, you know, Taylor's obviously evil and police are always killing, you know, black and brown people and people of color. And it's just another example of that. I've also seen, you know, in. In other instances, not necessarily this one, but in other instances I've seen people denigrating the person killed. Right. Like, oh, this guy deserved it. And frankly, I feel like both of those lines of thought are very dehumanizing and something that only truly comforts people who view the world like children, where there's like a good guy team and a bad guy team and reality, you know, it's very. Life is complicated. These are some things that, having read this and read about this case, I think needs saying. Marcus Rather. Maurice da Silva was a human being, and he was also a very impressive gentleman. I mean, he was from Sri Lanka. He was a scientist. He had a doctorate in biomedical engineering. In 2009, he became the principal investigator at the Naval Medical Research Unit in San Antonio, Texas. He loved cooking, loved long distance running. He seems like he was a really intelligent, passionate guy who loved studying the brain. And that's really sad and a bit ironic because he had pretty severe issues with his own brain. He could be very stable and doing well, and then suddenly he would become manic, depressed, even delusional people in his life knew that they did not know how to help him. They thought it might be depression, bipolar disorder, ptsd. Again, people in his life loved him. They wanted the best for him, but they couldn't really figure out what he needed. He deserved compassion, dignity, and most importantly, safety. And it sounds now from reading these media reports that he maybe was struggling with schizophrenia. And again, unfortunately, compassion, dignity, and especially safety are not always something that our society in the United States seems to offer people who might be profoundly mentally ill or intellect intellectually disabled on a regular basis. And that's really unfortunate. So that's, I think that's one thing I want to preface. Then I also want to say Christopher Taylor's a human being. I mean, he, he has a family. He has a family, too. He seems like he was doing in this case, in the Silva case. He had, like, seconds to react watching the video. The guy's clearly holding a knife and he's coming toward them. That, to me, seems like the most important thing that happened here. And, and when I look at this, I, I, you know, I think there's kind of like a tendency like, let's blame one of these two people. Let's blame the police officer or the mentally ill person. I don't blame either. I blame society. I know, like, that sounds, you know, preachy or whatever, but, like, I think we failed Dr. De Silva long before he picked up that knife and started wandering around the hallways of his condominium. I think he was failed a long time ago, Long before those elevator doors opened up and police had to make a split second, second decision. Police. You know, I mean, we should be throwing treasure, talent, time at our mental health crisis in this country. We should be building institutions that are safe, compassionate, that allow for short term, medium term, long term, and even permanent residency and care. We should be having comprehensive options for people who are not living in an institution, but who are outside and still working. There needs to not be barriers. There needs to not be barriers based on insurance or wealth. There needs to be less stigma so people feel comfortable getting the help so that they can live happy, successful, and safe lives. We should be treating underlying issues along with byproducts like addiction instead of just the addiction and I mean, just improving quality of life for mentally ill people. And by doing so, we won't be just helping them, we will be helping their loved ones, their communities, and frankly, large urban centers in the United States, which are often, you know, you see people who are in crisis and it's reducing quality of life for everybody. It would Benefit society in many ways. It would also be ungodly expensive, but who cares? I mean, what are we spend. Like, let's improve life somewhat. So what do we do instead of this right now? We use the police, the criminal justice system, and prison in order to deal with this. We wait until someone's a threat or in crisis or someone's actually literally done a crime, and then the end result is usually that mentally ill person ends up tried, convicted, imprisoned, and that's when early intervention could have stopped the whole thing from even happening. And the other thing we like to do as a society is we'd like to tell the police, go, go clean that up. Go deal with that. You know, we send the police to deal with these situations, and it's like frankly using a baseball bat to open up a pickle jar. Yeah, you might open up the pickle jar, but at what freaking cost? This is not how you should do it. You know, like, I'm all for more social workers working with the police. I'm all for the mental health trainings and the mental health officers. That's great. We should do that. But that doesn't fix the problem when a guy has a knife and is coming at an elevator. You know, like, I don't, I mean, I don't. What, what's a social worker going to do in that instance? Maybe talk him down or maybe get stabbed? We don't know. And we're going to be. I, I feel like society is going to be mad either way if, if the social worker gets stabbed, it's. Why do they put a social worker in there if they don't get stabbed? It's like, okay, great, but we're ignoring it, you know, like, I. All the mental health trainings in the world cannot fix this when it's so far gone. And I really feel like all that stuff about deescalation mental health trainings is great and wonderful and if it can save some lives, excellent, let's do it. But it's a band aid over a bullet hole. And a threat is a threat, no matter what's going through the person's mind. Okay, like. And officers often find themselves in situations where they do have a split second to react and people get hurt as a result of that. They cannot read minds and determine who is going to come at them with the knife or who's going to be using the knife on themselves or who's going to go turn around and stab someone else standing in the hallway.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's hard to understand why this case got charged.

[Anya Cain]

I do not understand at all why this case got. Well, I think I have some theories, but this, I. What a waste of time, effort and money. I mean, you tell me what's. Why are you surprised that it got charged?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the officer reacted to his training when he saw a guy with a knife. He had a split second decision.

[Anya Cain]

To me. When police officers break the law, they should be charged and that's it. And frankly, throw the book at ones who break the law and hurt people, you know, because that's, that's not just a crime. That's also an abuse of power and it's abuse of the public's trust and in the institution of policing. But if someone is following their training and it's just an unfortunate, sad thing to happen, which is the case here. Where's the crime? I don't understand where the crime is here. It's unfortunate that it happened, but it's not a crime. I personally, I personally question this stuff because it's like, is the goal to destroy an individual police officer's life and make him a scapegoat and then act like you've solved the problem, or is it to actually provide a more compassionate life to people in crisis and mentally ill people? I don't know. Or is it to just seem like you're doing something? Like, I feel like there's a big difference to me between actions that a prosecutor or a district attorney can take that would actually be beneficial to people in that situation. Things like drug court. I mean, you know, I'm not saying that would have helped here, but things like, I don't know, considering that in some sentencing, considering that in some plea deals versus just saying, oh no, we got the bad one. And it's like, I, I, I just, I, I think it's appalling, honestly. I don't know what they were thinking here. It just, it feels very politically motivated, but politically motivated in the worst kind of way because it's not politically motivated. And like, let's take care of this situation. It's politically motivated. Like, let's give our base some red meat and show them that we're really on their side, even though this doesn't do anything. And it just sort of seems like a really, really, I mean, I'm trying my best to be fair here and like, understand where this district attorney's office was coming from. But it's really hard to see that because, I don't know, it, it just seems like they were going after this guy a lot, maybe for political reasons. And again, I, in situations Where a police officer takes somebody's life, tho those should be heavily investigated. And I would expect and demand that a prosecutor file charges if a law was broken or if things were so reckless and so bad that it was just, you know, please do, we don't need police officers like that on our streets. People like that should not be on the force. And if people get hurt, then someone needs to be held accountable. I'm all for that. This is not that case. I, I can't understand why they thought it was. To me, the Ramos case is a little bit more ambiguous. Maybe it was for me, because I, I was, I, I've not gotten the trial transcripts for that. And it also seemed like the video that I saw was a bit more ambiguous. So that's a situation where maybe, I, I, I don't know as much about that one as the Da Silva shooting, but, but the Da Silva shooting seems to me very clear cut. The man has a knife and he's advancing towards the elevator. They have a split second to react and tragedy ensues. You know, I, I just, I don't know. So that's, that's where things are. The upshot for this, though, I don't think. I'm certainly not saying that we should not be upset about Dr. De Silva's death, though. I mean, we should be upset, we should be furious. This is such a waste of a life. He deserved better than this. But at the end of the day, the fault, in my opinion, does not lie with Christopher Taylor or the other officers who responded. It also doesn't lie with Dr. De Silva. I mean, he, he was clearly suffering for, whether it was schizophrenia or some sort of mental break, he, that was the cause of his alarming and threatening behavior. He did not deserve to die as a result of that. But again, by the time he's wandering around with a knife in his apartment complex, society's already failed him. He's already been failed. And if we want to spare those who suffer from mental disorders like Dr. Da Silva, we must do better by them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

And to me, that means offering interventions before things get that far. That means offering places for people to live while they get treatment. That means offering interventions outside of inpatient treatment for long swaths of time and making it easy and having lots of beds and having lots of support systems. And by the time someone's running around with a knife, it is too late. And the best case scenario in that situation is that someone's possibly going to prison or is going to be committed and it's Just, we need to do better by these people. And I wish Dr. Da Silva had gotten that, and I wish that this had never gone this far. But I also wish that prosecutors and politicians would not necessarily use these cases to sort of make some sort of political score and instead maybe focus on how we can actually help people. It's just. It makes me sad. And I think. I don't think Christopher Taylor deserved this. And I think the appeals court, frankly, made the only choice they could, and Dr. Da Silva certainly didn't either. I mean, I wish he had gotten the help he needed that night. But we have to stop setting up these situations where we're seeing the same thing happen over and over again and getting acting surprised and shocked by the results.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well said.

[Anya Cain]

I think we're going to one of your cases now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So we are hopping onto the cane train. You are sadly removing your cowboy hat.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we are heading to the Empire State of the west. The Golden State, the state of dreams.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The. The state of La La Land. Yes. California. My sources for this, USA Today and Fox News. And this involves a case you've almost certainly heard about, although I think it happened over Christmas. I'm not sure we've talked about it on the program. This is the case of Rob and Michelle Reiner, who were found dead, murdered in their home on December 14. And the person charged with the crime is their son Nick. And I think this case has hit people hard for a couple of reasons, one of which is, you know, if you're an American, was any interest in pop culture, the odds are at some point in your life, you've encountered some of Mr. Reiner's work, whether it's all in the family. When Harry Met Sally, I love that movie. Misery, the Princess Bride, Spinal Tap, he had a run of films he directed in the late 80s, early 90s that was really quite extraordinary.

[Anya Cain]

He was an incredibly talented director.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I think when you feel you know someone through their work and they die this way, that feels like you know them and it feels like a more personal loss. And then I think it's also hit people hard because the person who has been charged with murdering them is their own son, Nick. And it is apparent that Nick has had a history of pretty serious addiction issues and also had some mental illness issues. And Anya just told us at some length about a case that involves mental illness. I think a lot of families in this country have someone they love and who they care about deeply, who is touched by these issues. And it is tremendously difficult if you are in that situation, to know what you can do to help them. Because obviously if you love someone, you do want to help them. And so I think that's another reason why this case has hit people hard. Because the Reiners, by all accounts, are wonderful people who loved their son deeply and who also, frankly, they had a lot more resources than the vast majority of Americans. And so they surely tried everything they could to help this young man.

[Anya Cain]

And it wasn't enough, I gotta say. I mean, as someone who suffered from addiction issues myself in the form of alcoholism, some of the discourse around this is. It's been, it's been affecting because you have. I've seen such an outpouring of pain, anger from people who have dealt with similar situations. And I'm coming to it from the. The person who's addicted side. Right? But you also have to be open minded to hearing from all of these people, many of whom have been through a roller coaster with somebody, and it's like they see their parents going back again and again to a sibling who just cannot get it together. There's anger with that, and that's understandable and that's valid. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying we should malign people with addiction issues, because I myself have some, but it's. You can under. These are so painful and you basically get dragged down to hell and again and again, especially if someone keeps relapsing, right? You know, like, there's a, there's a point where, you know, like, there. And also, you know, addicts are notoriously manipulative, right? So it's like, it's like this thing. You love somebody that is basically like draining the life from you and in this case, literally taking the life of your parents. I, I guess what, what I'm. What I'd like to say though, is that you said you put it best. They had, they had resources, they had money, they had the willingness and the need to help their son. This story plays out in America, like everywhere you could imagine. In rural Indiana, in the suburbs of New York City, in wherever you want to go, you have a, you know, a male member of the family with mental health concerns and, or addiction issues murdering family members or being violent towards family members. And it's like an, it's like a. These people are in their own private hell because of this. And it's something we should be talking about because if it can happen to the Reiners, it's certainly happening to everyone else. And there needs to be solutions for families because happening to have somebody like that in your family should not be a death sentence, and it's also not a warrant to be abused. And, and. But you can also understand where people are reluctant to get the authorities involved too early because they feel like they'd be pushing away someone that they want to help.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's a hugely complicated situation that some families find themselves in. And again, the vast majority of families in this situation don't even have the resources the Reiners have had. Very few of us have the resources that the Reiners had, and it still wasn't enough. So it's just unbelievably tragic. And it is something that plays itself out, as Anya said, all over this country every day. And even if you have a person with addiction issues or mental health issues, and it doesn't end in murder, you're still under siege, sometimes dealing with them and their abusive behaviors. So it's a tragedy on multiple levels. So this case was in the news again this week because Mr. Reiner was being represented by a defense attorney named Alan Jackson. Alan Jackson, you may recognize that name. He was one of the defense attorneys who worked for Karen Reed, who was famously acquitted in her trial last year. And he was representing Nick Reiner, who again, has been charged with the murders of his parents. And he withdrew from this case pretty suddenly this week, and the case was turned over to a public defender. So he didn't say, here's why I'm leaving the case. He said, oh, I can't talk about it. But there are clues. There are clues, and we can have some informed speculation. I know that the Reiners, again, a lot of resources, but there are laws in California that prohibit if you kill someone, that prohibit you from getting money from their estate. And I know Nick Reiner is said to have also had some sort of trust fund that was set up by his grandfather, Carl Reiner. I don't know how big that trust fund is, but the fact that when Mr. Jackson left the case, the case was turned over to a public defender. A public defender. They do great work, but the key fact here is they are funded by taxpayers. And so my speculation is that Mr. Jackson left the case because Mr. Rainer was not going to be able to pay for it.

[Anya Cain]

That tracks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And in fairness, mounting a criminal defense at the level that Mr. Jackson would have is enormously expensive because not only would he have to be compensated for his own services, but defense attorneys at this level would be hiring experts, doing investigations, hiring other attorneys that could get enormously expensive very, very quickly.

[Anya Cain]

I like that he left basically saying oh, he's not guilty under the laws in California.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I want to. I want to talk.

[Anya Cain]

What a ringing endorsement.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to talk about that. After he left, he said, what we've learned, and you can take this to the bank, is that pursuant to the laws of the state, pursuant to the law in California, Nick Griner is not guilty of murder. End quote. And some media just quote that last part. Nick Griner is not guilty of murder. The things with lawyers in particular, or really anybody, listen to what they say very carefully, how they phrase things, and listen to what they don't say. And generally speaking, when you get that specific with what you say. For instance, if I accused Anya of stealing cereal last week from the neighborhood Walmart, and she said, well, you know, Kevin, I did not steal cereal from the Walmart at 2pm last Saturday, or.

[Anya Cain]

I didn't steal any Raisin Bran, that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Would be very different from her saying, I've never stolen cereal. And it would make me think, well, maybe the time or the type of cereal she's stolen is wrong, but maybe she's still guilty of it. In this case, he is not saying. Mr. Jackson is not saying that Nick Reiner is not responsible for the death of his parents. He's saying that, I believe that under California law, he's not guilty of murder. I think he is likely indicating some sort of diminished capacity defense. It's been reported that Mr. Reiner has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and that he recently changed his medication prior to the murders.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So a possible defense would be, oh, because of the mental illness, because of the new medication, he wasn't aware of what he was doing, so therefore, it can't be considered murder. You know, maybe manslaughter, maybe something else. But so that's. You always have to pay attention to what lawyers say.

[Anya Cain]

I agree. I just feel so bad for the siblings in this case. You know, I mean, they spend their lives with this sibling getting presumably, a lot of attention, a lot of negative attention for the constant struggles. And then he turns around and, you know, does this to their parents. It's. It's one of those hard things because, like, I have my own. Like, again, this is more from personal experience, and I certainly defer to people who are mental health experts and addiction experts. There's been some debate and kind of maybe we need to come away from the. The paradigm of rock bottom. Rock bottom for an addict is like, oh, my God, my life is. It would actually be better for me to stop using because, like, things have gotten so bad that using doesn't provide me as much comfort anymore. So it's basically, then you go up from there. And some people have talked about, like, cutting off relatives who are in the throes of addiction, cutting off relatives who are in the throes of mental health crises for safety reasons. It's really easier to say that than to do that, though.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely. So it's certainly a tragic case. It looks like it's. Now, as I say, it's going to be handled by the public defender's office. The attorneys who work in public defender's offices across this country are incredibly dedicated, and they do really important work. So I'm sure that he will be ably represented.

[Anya Cain]

I agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is it time, Ms. Kane, to once again hop on to the Kane train? And I think at this point, we are going to do something unprecedented. It's like a Schrodinger's Cat sort of situation where we are going to be in two different locations at once. And the locations we are going to be in are New Hampshire and your home state of New York.

[Anya Cain]

The true Empire State.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The true Empire State. The Empire State of the East.

[Anya Cain]

Of the. No, there's. It. It's just the Empire State of the East. We don't need to. No, we're not sharing it with anyone. Everyone else is ripping us off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And everybody who's ever seen Anya, obviously is. Is aware that she's a strikingly attractive.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God, would you stop it? You're so. This is so corny.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, no, I'm. I'm just saying that just even though you're a strikingly attractive young woman, sometimes I'm guilty of forgetting how young you are.

[Anya Cain]

Aw, you're sweet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so when I mentioned. Oh, Ani, I want to talk about the famous Pamela Smart case, you said, huh?

[Anya Cain]

No. And then I remembered it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So my source for this is abcnews.com and also payeto.com pay it. To correct me if I'm wrong, Anya, wasn't that the platform that was used to raise money for one Richard Allen?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, that. Oh, by the way, that $40,000. Do we even know where that went, by the way? Like, no one ever answered us on that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We can speculate, but we don't know. And so it'd be irresponsible to speculate.

[Anya Cain]

Congrats to all the brain geniuses who donated to that boondoggle. Pay it too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Pay it too, indeed. And so, as I was researching this because she, Ms. Smart, recently filed habeas corpus, I was looking it up, and it turns out In November, a site went up support Pamela Smart New legal proceedings on trial errors. This is again payetwo. Com. They say, oh, she wants to do this great habeas motion, but golly, she's gonna need a lot of money to do what we need $85,000. This went up in November. Do you want to guess how much they've raised? It's not 85,800 bucks. No, no. $5,250. All right, so not a very good showing in case you are in Anya's boat, so to speak, as opposed to her train.

[Anya Cain]

I've got a fleet. You do got a lot of options for us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if you're on the Kane battleship and you don't remember this case, maybe you don't even know about the Cain.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think some people got on the Kane battleship when they meant to get on the Kane train and now they feel like they've been conscripted?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I could imagine the cane flotilla. Is it called impressing officers or impressing people where you'd go, you'd kidnap people and make them serve you?

[Anya Cain]

Honestly, that sounds like something I would do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Happened to me.

[Anya Cain]

How did I get married? I send some jackbooted thugs to the local, what was it? Tavern, and next thing you know, I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wake up and there's a wedding ring. You're always up to something.

[Anya Cain]

I know. I really am.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, Ms. Smart, back when she was 22, she works at a high school. She had an affair with a 15 year old. She convinced the 15 year old, gosh, we really need to kill my husband. I can't divorce him because that might damage me financially. So she convinces the 15 year old and a couple of others to go and kill her husband. Everybody's convicted, they have been released. She is still incarcerated. For a long time, she maintained her innocence. A year or so ago, she tried to get her sentence commuted. And when you do that, it always looks better when you do that. If you say, gosh, I did it and I'm sorry, I did it. And so at that time, she issued a statement where she seems to take responsibility, but really not so much, because when you read what she said, it could almost be read as, gosh, by having this affair, I set off this chain of events which led to his death.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's different from saying, gosh, I. I encouraged this guy to kill my. Kill my husband.

[Anya Cain]

That's not taking responsibility for anything. It's just flim flam.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's like we. It's like we said a few Minutes ago. Listen carefully to what people say. And sometimes people try to create an impression with words that may not be what they're actually saying.

[Anya Cain]

To be clear, like we were talking about addiction earlier. That's like me seeing, well, I'm really sorry, folks, that somebody gave me a wine cooler when I was in high school. And I guess it's that person's fault, but, I mean, I got pretty crazy there for a while. That's not me taking responsibility for my own actions. That's. That's a. That's like a non apology apology. And I. Yeah, that. That's. That's stupid. Also, she's a child predator. Let's just be clear about this. I don't like it. Sometimes we talk. We talk. I mean, like the. The. Sometimes I feel like society doesn't take it as seriously when it's a woman, adult figure preying upon a male child. And I think that's appalling. And I think people like this we should have the same exact reaction to as we would a male teacher preying on a young girl.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Or any adult preying on any child. I don't care about the gender combinations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's very well said. Very true. So, As I said, Ms. Smart and her attorneys have filed a habeas motion. And when I said, we're in like, two locations, they filed it in two places. Because they filed it in New Hampshire, where the crime occurred, and they also filed it in New York, which is where she is being incarcerated. And their big complaint is, golly, the trial was unfair. There were some secret recordings made of conversations Ms. Smart had with different people. And the jury was given transcripts of those conversations, including words that were unclear and may not have been said, at least according to them. For instance, there was a sentence, you had your husband killed. And the claim is that the word killed was not clearly audible in the actual recording. Now, of course, the jury got the transcripts, but they also got to listen to the recordings and decide for themselves whether or not.

[Anya Cain]

So then who cares?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're claiming that, Anya, if I went outside and just said, look at those clouds, you'd say, oh, yeah, I see clouds. But if I say, hey, Anya, look at that cloud, doesn't that look like a bunny rabbit?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, I can see that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they're saying because they had this transcript, that kind of predisposed them to hear things which they argue weren't a part of it.

[Anya Cain]

I don't find that. I find that. I don't find that a stupid argument. I take it back. I Understand what they're saying there. It seems I don't find that super compelling either, but I understand what they're saying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, I don't find it super compelling either. So we'll see what happens. So not much to say about that one. I just.

[Anya Cain]

What was the name of her husband and stuff? I just would love to, you know, I always like to say, you know, the name of the person who got murdered in these things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Her husband was Gregory Smart. And yeah, he was killed by this 15 year old boy that Ms. Smart was having an affair with.

[Anya Cain]

What a horrible, horrible situation indeed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now is part of our really poorly planned itinerary. I guess you are either by battleship or by train are going to make us go back to where we began. Not in Indiana, but in the Empire State of the southwest, Texas.

[Anya Cain]

Well, to take Pamela Smart's example, I'd say don't blame me, blame the listener who was very helpful and sent us this case as a suggestion. So it's their fault? No. Yeah, but we are going back to Texas and my sources this are Fox 4 News and the website, the news website Hoodline and I could not find any court documents for this one. And frankly I honestly, the more I look at other cases in other states, the more I appreciate Indiana's system of my case because that makes sense and you can look things up pretty easily. And the only annoying thing is it's only for lawyers. But other than that, it's pretty straightforward. And you know what? I'm not even singling out Texas. I'm looking right at you, Michigan. What the heck are you guys doing up there with your frigging court lookup system? I, I'm, I'm against it. It's an evil website.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a chance. We've been trying to look up something in Michigan.

[Anya Cain]

It's an evil website. Why do I have to go and search a party name in like three individual courts from Macomb County? Can someone please explain this and tell me what am I doing wrong? Am I just an idiot? What's happening? But anyways, let's go back to Texas. Sorry, Michigan, but I'm really mad. Thanks to the listener who recommended this one. We recently had on a wonderful Michigan person named Lena. Lena, of course, is the daughter of convicted murderer Temujin Kenzou, who murdered Scott Macklin back in 1986. We've had her on the show a couple times. She does a lot of advocacy around, you know, stopping sex trafficking and stopping human trafficking and stopping the victims of that. And so we had her on to talk about. One thing I think we've all probably encountered on the, you know, social media side of things is people, often women, sort of saying they had an encounter and assuming that that might have been with human traffickers or sex traffickers. And I don't mean to denigrate the experiences of any women who had a negative encounter in public because you very well may have seen or encountered a predator. But I think it is important to note that sex trafficking and human trafficking tend to play out in a specific way. And that way is never ever random middle class people being snatched off the street and sold into slavery. And the reason for that is that is not good business because if you kidnap people and force them to do things against their will, then there's a very good chance that people are going to notice them missing and the cops are going to get involved and they, you know, bust everybody. Instead, you human and sex traffickers have a plethora of desperate people who they are able to cajole, lure, threaten, coerce into situations where they're not going to go to the police. And it's not a forcible abduction off the street type thing. It's more of like your boyfriend gets you into it. It's more like someone you have a job with, they take your passport and then you're stuck. So that's what it tends to look like. So this case I think highlights that a little bit more. And, and, and it's a good example for this is my, this might be something that actually someone might deal with with sex trafficking. And therefore it's something we should be paying attention to in our own lives. Because again, the, when we don't know what something looks like, we don't know how to respond to the threat. And if we think that human trafficking looks like somebody approaching you in the parking lot and throwing a bag over your head and throwing you in a van, then we're going to be prepared for that. We're not going to be prepared for some adult grooming our child online and then becoming their boyfriend and then getting them to go off with them. That's, that's a more realistic scenario. So here's what happened in Tarrant county in Texas and this, it mostly comes from a Facebook post as well from the Tarrant District center and county district attorney's office. From December 29, 2025, they announced that 25 year old Emily Hutchins pled guilty to aggravated promotion of prostitution and was sentenced to 30 years. And let me be clear, this was part of a plea agreement. I was really surprised about the length of the sentence, but, you know, it certainly seemed like they were taking this pretty seriously. So when we talk about aggravated promotion of prostitution, what does that mean? Well, first of all, it's a first degree felony in Texas, and it means that the perpetrator is knowingly owning, financing, controlling, and managing some kind of prostitution enterprise, and that it has to involve multiple people. So in the case of Hutchins, she was somebody who was recruiting girls and Women back in 2023. She was setting up online ads for them as far as, you know, doing sex acts, and then she was forcing them to do said sex acts and then keeping most of the money that they brought in. So the kind of typical old timey terms for some of this has been like pimp, Although that typically refers to men who do stuff like this. Madam, for women, I'm sure those are both pretty out of date when we're talking about this stuff. But she was essentially running this enterprise and also seemingly being quite abusive towards the women and girls who were doing this. She would threaten them. She would tell them that they'd be out in the street with nowhere to live. She said that she would ruin them. She would expose them to their friends and family. So this is the kind of coercion we tend to see. Again, it's not a mysterious man who's gonna just, you know, grab someone off the street who's then going to be missing and then bring the heat down. It's, you know, okay, you can work for me, we can do this, But I'm going to take most of the money. And if you leave, you can't, because I'll ruin you to your family and friends. That's what it's looking like. It's like blackmail. It's coercion. And frankly, the people that they're targeting tend to be people who are vulnerable in some way. They're vulnerable socioeconomically. They're. They're vulnerable because perhaps they have an abusive boyfriend who got them into it. Like, there's all kind. They're vulnerable because they're very young. That's what it looks like. So anyways, this is. This is a case that they did not go to trial, obviously, because it was a plea agreement. But the assistant district attorney on it was Danielle Bonanno. The investigator was Raul Rodriguez, and the victim coordinator was Cece Jones. They all got thanked in the post. And stuff like this is important because I think there's a reasonable debate to be had around adults about what legalizing sex work would look like? Or would that be safer for sex workers? Or is there a way to do it in a safer way? Is there a way to do it that also doesn't encourage sex trafficking? Some people would say no, it's. It's gonna. They're just gonna start sex trafficking people into supposedly legitimate means. Some people say it, with enough regulation, maybe it can be safer. There's a lot of different opinions on that, but I think there's a discussion to be had. But when it comes to somebody who is using force, threats, coercion to keep people, to keep victims in a situation like this, I think it should be treated very seriously. So even.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

Even though 30 strikes strikes me as a pretty harsh sentence. And I kind of wonder, like, what. What were the. What. How bad were the details of this, where they went for that? You know, you can kind of get a sense based on some of the threats and, you know, that this may have been a pretty prolific thing. Yeah, that's the one. So no one died in that one, but someone was sentenced to 30 years.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to take a moment to thank all of the people who have reached out after the death of our beloved dog, Lanny. It would be impossible for me to exaggerate how much it's meant to us. It's been a real comfort to sit and read all the kind messages. People been very sweet. It's been a huge comfort to us and we're going to be replying to you all. And people have been. Some people have sent us books on grief in this situation. Also tremendously helpful. We're very grateful that people even offered to help us get a new dog when the time was right. I want to say that after Lanny passed, there was a huge. It was very sad in the house. There was a heaviness in the house. And somebody wrote us, you know, Lanny wouldn't want you to be sad. And so we made the choice to go ahead and get a new dog.

[Anya Cain]

We're not impulsive. What do you mean?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a sheltered dog. And I don't know if you've noticed if this episode was a little bit more disjointed than usual, even by our standards. I think we had to stop and restart the recording, what, like a hundred times?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because the dog would be chewing on something it shouldn't have or would be doing something inappropriate.

[Anya Cain]

That dog was chewing my shoes. I'm mad. And also, yeah, sometimes he's really good. Like, we've had a couple episodes that we've had to record while he was around. Sometimes he's totally chill. He's just like, yeah, I'll hang out on the couch. No worries. And other times, he's like, I need attention or I'll die. And it's like, oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So kind of like you.

[Anya Cain]

How dare you? You are insane. Oh, my God. You both are insane. I'm surrounded by insane men in this house.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I went to the Humane.

[Anya Cain]

Society and made a bad decision. I'm just kidding. He's really sweet. I've never trained a dog before, so a lot of this is new for me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's so many dogs in the Humane Society that need help and need good homes. And I went there. I spent time with a lot of dogs. This dog happened to already have a name, and that name was Nicola Nicolo.

[Anya Cain]

Something like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Something like that. And it's become. Now the dog's name is Nick.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, but we wanted. Well, do you want to explain the thinking behind that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You said you wanted to honor Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McClelland.

[Anya Cain]

I feel like Nick McClelland meets this dog, he's going to be offended. You named this thing after me. He's very badly behaved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was not named after Nick McClelland.

[Anya Cain]

No, but you know that I'm sure all the. The crate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The.

[Anya Cain]

The. The Richard Allen truthers will be, like, adding this to their little conspiracy board with the yarn on it. No, we. We. I. I want to. So my dream at this point is to have two dogs and name them Nick and Nora, after Nick and Nora Charles from the Thin man series, which is based on a novel by Dashiell Hammett that I love. And it's a really fun series. And you watch it. It's William Powell, Myrna Loy, having incredible chemistry. And we love a lot of great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Movies in that series.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I'd say, like a lot of old movies, they're inconsistent movies, but there's some amazing moments with those actors. The actors are carrying the whole thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm gonna make Anya very upset.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, God. What is it now?

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if people are curious to hear Anya speak at length about those movies.

[Anya Cain]

Jesus.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did we discuss it on our other podcast? Each one, yes. Have you also read the novel?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I love Dashiell Hammett. I love Dashiell Hammett. I love the Continental Op series that he did. That's like, the best ever. And I love the Thin man. And he's. I mean, I love Dashiell Hammett.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll say, at the time, there was Something in the novel that was like very controversial and adult and shocking. But I'm not going to tell you what it is. But if you read the book now, it won't even register.

[Anya Cain]

What is it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just said I wasn't gonna say it.

[Anya Cain]

Why aren't you gonna say it? You wanna spoil it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't want to spoil it.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, okay, everyone read the Thin man and then we can learn what Kevin's talking about. Because I don't remember this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was very controversial at the time. It was, it was a little naughty.

[Anya Cain]

A little naughty? Yeah. Well, anyways, we, he's, he's Nick. And apologies to Nicholas McLeland. See, I don't. We call, we call Nick the prosecutor Nicholas on the show, you know, because that's formal and we're trying to be professionals. But. But no, yeah. The dog is also named Nick now. So he's a good dog. He's very sweet. He, he does, he's, he's one, he's got potential. He's one and a half. No, I, I love him already. I'm obsessed with him, honestly. But he's, he's one and a half. And because he's a shelter dog, he's like got all this pent up energy. So he needs to learn. Don't put your mouth on things. And he needs to learn, don't jump up. If we can kind of get him and he's doing better. He's obsessed with food. So we're, we're working.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like me.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, well, like Kevin, we're working on positive, non fear based, just positive. We're giving him a lot of attention when he's being a good boy. And if he's not being such a good boy, then he doesn't get as much attention. So he's learning pretty quickly that you're not supposed to jump on people and that you should never put your mouth on people. But he's very sweet and he's like, you know, he, he's just playing, you know, it's one of those things. But he's, we don't know what kind of dog he is. They said they, you know, like they just tell you whatever at these shelters. Honestly, they said maybe Husky Lab, maybe Husky Pit, maybe all three.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Didn't your dad speculate that the dog might be Kryptonian?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. He said he looks like Krypto the superdog. And he kind of does, actually. And he's very, he's, he's very, he's very cute and he's got these like, cute little ears, and one of them, like, tips down. But everyone told Kevin, don't get a husky or a husky mix. So Kevin obviously falls in love with the frigging husky mix at the shelter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In the comic books. In the comic books, which were again, done for children. Krypto the Superdog is responsible for the Great Chicago Fire, which killed people.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, people died and led to anti Irish discrimination.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People died. So I just had to throw that in there.

[Anya Cain]

I told my family that my dad's like, yeah, he looks like crypto. I'm like, well, you know, canonically, crypto killed a lot of people in Chicago. So that sounds like about right. But he's. He's sweet. We're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I've. Again, I've never. I've never had a dog this young before. My family usually adopted, like, senior dogs. And so the energy is off the charts, which I kind of love. And we're running around constantly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you kind of adopted a senior dog when you married me. That's just what your family trained you to do, right? Easier to manage.

[Anya Cain]

That is an insane thing. You are really off the. You see, like, we get it. We get a nutty dog, and now Kevin's using this. So one thing that was funny that happened was Kevin was detained and out of the house. And so I was doing. We, you know, we broke the news on the, you know. Well, we didn't break the news, but we. I think someone beat us to it. But we. We reported on the Linda Rutledge solve the other day. So we have this new dog in the house, and I tell. And, you know, I'm alone with him. And the thing is, he really only acts up if you're not paying, you know, if you're not paying complete attention to him. So usually if there's two of us, one of, you know, one of us can be petting him and kind of letting the other one get something done. But I tell the news producers, I'm like, you know, we got a new puppy. And, you know, he's pretty crazy. And they're like, no worries. So if I seem. If we seem really tense in either of those interviews that we did on that case, it's because we were literally having to hold him and be like, stop it. Because he wants to jump up and see what's going on on the camera.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I remember you talked to your mother a day or two after we got the dog, and she mentioned you seemed a lot happier.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I'm definitely happier. I mean, with Lanny. Lanny's whole thing was like, you're not getting another dog with me here. I'm the only princess girl in the household, and I am not going to give. Be okay with any attention given, you know, given to any other creature. And I feel like when she passed away, it was. It was such a sad time for us. And I. I'd like to think that she would approve of us getting another rescue at this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we're never going to forget Lanny, and we're always going to miss her. We have her picture on our wall.

[Anya Cain]

We have, like, three pictures on our wall now. She was very photogenic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I put together for my. For myself and Anya, one of those books you can make one of those private books with a lot of my favorite pictures of her for us to look at.

[Anya Cain]

That was nice. And, and so we're, you know, I. I like to think we're honoring her legacy by adopting another pup. And again, we met from a shelter. From a shelter. And like a lot of shelter dogs, he's got problem behaviors, but we knew that going into it, and we're committed to training him to be the best boy possible. And I already feel like he's making a lot of progress. And he's really trying, which is so sweet to see. Like, he is really trying. You can tell he's, like, trying to learn his manners, and we're just trying to make that a positive experience. I think some of his behavior where he kind of gets nervous is also coming from the anxiety of being in a shelter. And, you know, kudos to. I mean, I know a lot of you guys have shelter dogs or you work with animals, and just kudos to everyone who does that because it's so important. But we're really excited to be bringing him into our family. And he's a. He's a sweetie already. Even though he should not have eaten my shoe today because, again, like, come on, I. I don't want to have to go out and get new shoes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Mama needs a new pair of shoes.

[Anya Cain]

Like, it's not. You stopped it before it got too bad. But, like, I mean, I can wear this, right? It's not too obvious?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's a little revealing now.

[Anya Cain]

No, it's not revealing. Oh, my God. It's just a little bit. Not on the edges, but, you know, come on, sir. This is not acceptable. He wants to chew on stuff he's not supposed to chew on and doesn't want to chew on any of his chew choice. We're sort of trying to get him used to that. But he's been fun. It's been fun to, I don't know, get to know him. So we're excited. I think all of our family members were like, we have a new dog now. And they're like, oh, my God. But then they see his picture and they're like, oh, he's cute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we posted his picture in our Facebook group. And our Patreon. Our Patreon. And I'm sure he's going to make his presence known in Patreon lives and.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe in some important interviews. Yeah, we were interviewing a great reporter named Bob Ciphers the other day. We're excited to have him back on the show soon. And, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You were interviewing him? Yeah, I was manning the dog.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin was being held hostage by our new dog. And he's like. I was like, you know, Kevin sends his regards, but he's upstairs and he can't come down.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But anyways, Ms. Lanny. Lanny was easy. Lanny was like, you know, she knew what to do. But she was an older girl and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She had dignity and had a royal bearing about her.

[Anya Cain]

I. I think as when she was younger, she was a bit of a hellraiser, too. So I think, you know, I think so was I. No, you weren't. You just, like, nod sadly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, you don't know what young Kevin was like.

[Anya Cain]

So you're saying you're like a rebel. You're going around in, like, a leather jacket with a motorcycle. Like, what are we. What are we talking about here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I've been on a motorcycle and I've looked at leather jackets.

[Anya Cain]

So you've been on a motorcycle? Yeah, I know this story. Do you want to tell the audience?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's just a guy gave me a ride on a motorcycle.

[Anya Cain]

Because you were like a pizza delivery man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was a pizza delivery guy. And somehow I parked. I don't know how it happened. I parked down the street and I had to walk a distance to deliver the pizza. And then some guy on a motorcycle was watching me, very, very sadly, watching me traipse, carrying my little pizza, delivering it, getting a little tip, and then turning and he said, man, you don't want to walk all that way back to your car. Can I give you a lift? And they always say, if a strange man offers you a ride on a motorcycle, sure, do it. And I did it. And it did not end in tragedy.

[Anya Cain]

Yay. Everyone survived.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right.

[Anya Cain]

Congrats. I've never been on a motorcycle before. And honestly, no disrespect, to anyone who enjoys them, but I just don't think I'd be very good on one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you can be a passenger, like I was.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but I just. I think I'd mess it up somehow. I'm not very coordinated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, you're very graceful in life.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that's very nice, but it's also a lie.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, it's the truth.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. All right, so shall we attend to the needs of a very special gentleman over there in his thunder shirt who's pouncing around the couch and probably going to start destroying the cushions very soon? No, he's got his bone. He's doing. He's doing. He's being a good boy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're criticizing the dog.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not criticizing him. I'm just monitoring the situation. He's got his tail going. Oh, he's so cute. All right, well, we better go. But thank you, everyone, for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're the one with the button.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I have the button. Whoops. Blah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, let's get going.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. she's talking to the dog, not to me. By the way, information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.