The Cheat Sheet: Victims and Vaccines

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Victims and Vaccines"

Release Date: August 15, 2025

Hosts:

• Áine Cain, Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee, Attorney

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1. Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into a series of tragic and perplexing crime cases across multiple states, examining the motives, impacts, and unresolved questions that surround each incident. Skipping over promotional segments, the focus remains steadfast on delivering in-depth analysis and heartfelt discussions about the victims and the broader implications of these crimes.

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2. Georgia: CDC Shooting Incident

The episode opens with a harrowing account of a mass shooting at the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, Georgia.

• Victim: Officer David Rose of the DeKalb County Police was killed while responding to the incident.
• Perpetrator: An unnamed gunman fired 180 shots, expressing extreme opposition to the COVID-19 vaccine, believing it adversely affected him.

Key Points:

• The gunman had a history of bizarre behavior and multiple 911 calls, indicating prior instability.
• He accessed a gun by breaking into his family’s locked gun safe, raising questions about firearm accessibility and family responsibility.
• Áine Cain reflects on the profound loss:

  "Officer Rose served with integrity, compassion and bravery, and he leaves behind a lasting impact on the DeKalb community."
  (02:03)

Impacts:

• Officer Rose's family, including his pregnant wife and two children, faces unimaginable grief.
• The incident underscores the urgent need for better mental health support and secure firearm storage to prevent such tragedies.

---

3. Virginia: Spencer Hatcher Murder

Moving to Virginia, the hosts discuss a baffling case involving the murder of Holly Hatcher, the mother of rising country music artist Spencer Hatcher.

• Victim: Holly Hatcher, 62, was brutally killed by an intruder.
• Perpetrator: Kevin Moses Walker, 41, who had no apparent connection to the Hatcher family.

Key Points:

• Walker exhibited normal behavior prior to the crime, visiting Endless Caverns and camping overnight without any signs of aggression.
• His sudden act of violence remains unexplained, leaving the community searching for answers.
• Kevin Greenlee states:

  "There's no reason, just a horrible tragedy."
  (09:58)

Impacts:

• Holly Hatcher’s husband, Michael, survived the ordeal after a shootout with Walker, highlighting both heroism and the random nature of such violence.
• The lack of motive makes the case particularly chilling and raises concerns about unidentified triggers for violent behavior.

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4. Pennsylvania: Lori Wasco and State Troopers' Assault

In Pennsylvania, the discussion centers on the tragic murder of Lori Wasco and the subsequent attack on state troopers.

• Victim: Lori Wasco, 47, was killed by her 61-year-old neighbor in Susquehanna County.
• Perpetrator: The neighbor not only murdered Lori but also ambushed responding police officers, Troopers Joseph Parachinsky and William Jenkins.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain emphasizes the community's shock:

  "This is something that happened in the Delphi murders case and that can happen in other cases sometimes."
  (15:51)

• The shooter employed a semiautomatic weapon and showed a blatant disregard for law enforcement and public safety.

• Trooper Parachinsky managed to apply a tourniquet to Trooper Jenkins, showcasing remarkable bravery under fire.

Impacts:

• Both troopers survived their injuries, receiving support and recovering after the traumatic events.
• The incident highlights the complexities of neighborly relationships gone tragically wrong and the challenges in preventing such unpredictable acts of violence.

---

5. Wisconsin-UK Connection: Online-Driven Murder Plot

Crossing the Atlantic, the hosts explore a bizarre case linking Wisconsin and the UK, involving an online-facilitated murder plot.

• Perpetrator: Mohammed Nabeel Nazir from England orchestrated a plot via a dating app.
• Accomplice: Amy Betrow from Wisconsin, who traveled to England to carry out Nazir's directive to kill a clothing store owner following a fight.

Key Points:

• Kevin Greenlee outlines the absurdity of the plot:

  "If you're a young lady using a dating app and you get a message, oh, there's a fight at a clothing store. Let's kill a guy. You think, hey, that's the guy for me."
  (30:46)

• During her attempt to assassinate Mr. Ali, the intended victim, Betrow’s gun jammed, preventing the murder.

• She continued her spree by driving a tractor trailer to block roads, firing at police drones, but was ultimately apprehended and convicted.

Impacts:

• The case sheds light on the dangers of online interactions and the potential for extreme actions born from misguided intentions.
• It raises questions about the influence of digital platforms in facilitating real-world violence and the psychological factors driving such behavior.

---

6. Discussion on Criminal Behavior and Mental Health

Throughout the episode, Áine and Kevin engage in a thoughtful discussion about the nature of criminal behavior, mental health, and societal responsibilities.

• Áine Cain asserts:

  "Some people are just evil. I mean, I don't think people have like a trouble with. I think, you know, we try to, we try to intellectualize everything and say, oh, mental illness."
  (14:59)

• They debate the balance between understanding mental health issues and recognizing inherent malice in certain individuals.

• Kevin Greenlee adds:

  "People are awful indeed."
  (16:37)

Key Insights:

• The unpredictability of violent acts and the difficulty in preemptively identifying potential perpetrators.
• The importance of robust mental health support systems and responsible firearm regulations to mitigate risks.

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7. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with a lighter segment where the hosts share personal anecdotes and discuss upcoming events related to their podcast and book releases. While this section veers away from true crime discussions, it provides listeners with insights into the hosts' lives and future plans.

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Notable Quotes:

• "People are awful indeed." – Kevin Greenlee (16:37)
• "Officer Rose served with integrity, compassion and bravery, and he leaves behind a lasting impact on the DeKalb community." – Áine Cain (02:03)
• "There's no reason, just a horrible tragedy." – Kevin Greenlee (09:58)
• "Some people are just evil." – Áine Cain (14:59)

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Conclusion

In "The Cheat Sheet: Victims and Vaccines," The Murder Sheet offers listeners a sobering exploration of senseless violence and the complexities surrounding criminal motives. Through empathetic storytelling and analytical discourse, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee honor the victims while prompting critical conversations about mental health, societal safeguards, and the unpredictable nature of human behavior.

---

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

For my eyes, I also got a little blue beret because Kevin insists I wear more hats. It's very cute. I love it. I'm also looking at their 100% European linen dresses, as well as more cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at $40, not to mention their washable silk tops and denim pants. I can't wait to see the latest selections from Quince, and we'll definitely let you all know about what we get next.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet content warning. This week's episode includes discussion of murder.

[Anya Cain]

So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going all around and then we're going abroad, right? So I think we're going to Georgia, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and then maybe Birmingham, England, by way of Wisconsin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, another well planned itinerary for the Kane train.

[Anya Cain]

All aboard. We're going across the ocean, I guess. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Cheat Sheet, Victims and Vaccines.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe I'm the first one to disembark here in the great state of Virginia.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I thought I was going first with Georgia.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think you are going first with Georgia. I. I got premature. I misread the notes.

[Anya Cain]

You. You almost got off on the wrong stop. You'd have been standing on the platform.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gee, that would have been awful. How humiliating.

[Anya Cain]

Oh no. The cane train will come back for you, Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It better he just abandoned. So there's lots of middle aged lawyers in the sea for you over in other states.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you're the only middle aged lawyer for me, you know that. So you think I'm gonna use the cane train to pick up men?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't you think there's a certain type of man who loves a train?

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And are those the, the best?

[Anya Cain]

I. The cane train is your invention. I just want to point that out here. So none of this is my job.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not gonna.

[Anya Cain]

I'm on the cane train and it's your fault. So yeah, no, you're gonna stay on here with me and not, you're not gonna escape that easy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We do know someone who has a deep, deep interest in model trains, which I know you always thought made him seem more well rounded and interesting.

[Anya Cain]

No, I thought it was adorable. But I mean I think that's, I think when people have a little passion like that, it's cute. But I don't, I don't, I'm not, I'm not like trying to. Well, whatever, let's just move on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I didn't have patience for the model trains as a, as a kid because I. You'd look at these model train sets with all these little buildings and, and things like that and they look so, so cool and impressive, but I didn't have the patience to actually sit down and construct. Struck one of those. So whenever I did like a little model train, it was just very simple. Did you ever do model train?

[Anya Cain]

No, I didn't. I never did model trains, but I think it's a very wholesome hobby. But I, you know, I, I like trains in theory but you know they can, they can be good. But it's been a long time since I've been on one because I live in the Midwest now and we, everyone, it's. Everything's driving.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory loves a train.

[Anya Cain]

Loves a train. There you go. But you know, I respect that. But let's we digress. Where do you want to talk about some crimes now? So this is Georgia. This is a terrible case that I believe occurred on Friday, which was the week. August. Yeah, August 8th, I think. And this had a gunman who I'm not going to name because they don't deserve to be remembered shoot up the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Firing 180 shots there in Atlanta, Georgia. Because. Well, basically because he's a seriously disturbed person. And unfortunately, he did kill one person who does deserve to be remembered. And this was. This was unfortunately, a police officer, Officer David rose of the DeKalb County Police. And he was responding to what was going on and was shot and killed. Now, that's horrible. He. I mean, just, like, doing his job, responding to this situation and getting killed for it. But this is where, you know, we kind of learned some more information about what may have motivated this person. Apparently, he thought that the vaccine was, like, having an adverse effect on him. Like, he was opposed to COVID 19 vaccine. I know that's become, unfortunately, highly politicized. So I'm going to just, you know, not necessarily freak everyone out here. But, I mean, obviously, even I would hope that even people who are vaccine skeptics would agree that you shouldn't shoot up a building because of that. Yeah, he apparently had a bunch of bizarre stuff on his, you know, papers and electronics that is being looked at right now. And in the meantime, Officer Rose's family has. Has lost a husband and father. So he. This is something from a GoFundMe, a post that sort of is raising money for his. His family. Quote, his kindness, courage and unwavering commitment to his family and community touched the lives of everyone who knew him. Officer Rose served with integrity, compassion and bravery, and he leaves behind a lasting impact on the DeKalb community. End quote. He has left behind a wife who is now a widow, two children, and she's also pregnant with a third child. So how sick and horrible is that? You know, this. This basically maniac shoots up the place, leaves these kids orphaned. I'll include a link to the GoFundMe in our show notes. If you want to donate, I would encourage you to, if you can. This is just appalling. This guy should never have been out reading about him. And I'm going to tell you this, I feel terrible for this man's family, too. This gunman's family. It seems like they were aware of these issues. There were all of these 911 calls and situations where they were called to the house because this guy is a lunatic trying to get help. The. He got a gun from his family's gun safe, but he broke into it. So they had it locked up. Right. But he's just determined to get it. So sometimes you read about these things and you're like, this family enabled this guy to the point where he killed someone. And they're kind of culpable to a certain extent. Maybe not legally, but perhaps morally in this case. My heart goes out to these people. I. I felt. I'm sure. I can't imagine how helpless they felt watching this man spiral into total madness. And it just underscores. And this guy, again, he blames his mental health issues on the COVID 19 vaccine. Like, that's where he was, like, now I have a problem. But it's because of the vaccine. Sure. No, it's because your brain. They need to be places that you can put people like this when they're representing a risk. And there's all these 911 calls. There needs to be a place that is humane, safe, and well funded, where they can be. Where they cannot hurt other people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's. That's a good point.

[Anya Cain]

And I. I feel so bad for the CDC employees. They're. They're trying to do their jobs. You know, their. Their jobs have been bizarrely polarized in our stupid political environment. They're trying to do that, and they're being traumatized because they're being shot at. It's totally outrageous. So, yeah, makes me mad. Anyways, let's go to Virginia.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Go to the great state of Virginia, The Old Dominion.

[Anya Cain]

Old Dominion. I love.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're a alma mater. You went to school in Virginia.

[Anya Cain]

I went to the oldest school in Virginia. Not the oldest school in the country, but. But they squeaked by in Virginia. Second oldest college in the country. William and Mary Love Devold, Hark upon the Gale, blah, blah, blah. Let's move on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You love your alma mater, you love William and Mary.

[Anya Cain]

I am embarrassingly corny about it, and I love it very. And I'm embarrassed because you don't really have that much school spirit. I think you appreciate iu. You like iu, but not like, I like William and Mary.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no. I. I just think you. You go to school, you get what you need out of it, and you move on with your life.

[Anya Cain]

I'm very nostalgic. I'm very much, like, getting like, oh, Virginia. Yes. I remember on the James river banks, you know, I don't know. I'm very corny about it. I'm. It's kind of embarrassing, but I did have a good time there, and I like history, so it was cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Source for this is foxnews.com you know, Anya, often when there is a serious terrible crime, people want to know why. It's a very reasonable question. But sometimes it's unanswerable. And when it's unanswerable, that almost makes it more terrifying, because if you know why something happened, then in theory you feel a little bit more safe because you can say, oh, this happened because of this. If we make sure this doesn't happen again, then maybe we're a little bit safer. We prevent things like this from happening. If this happened, oh, there's this breakdown of the system, or this person was triggered by this or that, then that is a way to make us feel safe. But again, sometimes the terrifying answer is there is no reason, or at least there appears to be no reason. And we have one of those cases out of Virginia and it got some attention nationwide because it involves the family of an up and coming country music artist named Spencer Hatcher. So this took place in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, where a 41 year old man named Kevin Moses Walker broke into the home of Mr. Hatcher's parents, Holly and Michael, who were 62 and 65. He killed Holly, he killed the singer's mother, Holly, and he fought with her husband until the husband was able to retrieve a gun and shoot a shot, killing the intruder. Mr. Walker, and you want to know why did this happen? And you look at what this man Walker was doing prior to the crime, and he was basically acting more or less normally. There was like some old cave or something in the general area. He went to the cave, he was being very polite. One of the people who runs the cave, which is called Endless Caverns, is a man named Mike Stewart. He was quoted as saying that Mr. Walker, he was a yes, ma', am, no sir person, just didn't register any aggressiveness on our part. That's why everybody's looking for answers. This man Walker also even camped there overnight. But then something happened and it's not clear what happened. But this man Walker, he runs his car into the front door of this building, this cave site, and leaves his hat there and then just goes off. And the next we know of him is when he broke into the Hatcher home, which is just a few miles away, and committed that awful crime, killing Holly Hatcher and then being killed himself by her husband Michael. And there's no known connection between the Hatcher family and Mr. Walker. No reason for this. Not clear why he snapped. It just seems to be just an unexplainable, unnecessary tragedy. And Michael Hatcher, the man who lost his wife before taking the life of the killer, he said, quote, I've heard a lot of you say there are no words to explain this, and there aren't. And there's going to be questions that would never be answered. But all I can tell you is we've cried, we've hurt, we've hugged, and we have found more love than we have ever known has existed between us and between you. Thank you. And so it's horrible that that's the story. There's no reason, just a horrible tragedy.

[Anya Cain]

Some people are just evil. I mean, I don't people have like a trouble with. I think, you know, we try to, we try to intellectualize everything and say, oh, mental illness. First of all, most people with mental illness aren't going to hurt anybody. If anyone, they're going to hurt themselves. Let's just note that there might be unexpected, you know, there might be undiagnosed things going on or things that are mental illness or there might just be people who are just evil and want to hurt other people. I mean they're are. It sucks, but it, you know, they're just people who are just not right. Doesn't even necessarily mean that they have anything to diagnose or that any sort of medication could help them. It just could mean that they're just not right. And you know, looking at this guy's picture doesn't really seem like he has any social media or anything. He just kind of looks like a schlubby dude. Like not necessarily super threatening, but you never really know what's going on upstairs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With people and that can be terrifying.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but that's what people need to understand. You know, it like people always wanted to be like, oh, this guy had a history of doing all this stuff. Like the guy I talked about, the gunman, right. He had a history of like real problems and like 911 calls. Other people might be thinking about doing stuff for a long time and not doing anything and then one day they just do it and that's it. So you know that that happened in the Delphi murders case and that can happen in other cases sometimes. I mean, I would say probably more often there's going to be a criminal history. But that's not always the case. That's terrifying. I feel so bad for that woman's husband and her family. Just like, like awful people are awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People are awful indeed. So I think we're ready to head over to the Keystone State of Pennsylvania.

[Anya Cain]

Pennsylvania, here we go. We report on some very scary cases and deal with some frankly pretty scary people, like getting threatened, even getting death threats. It forces you to think about how safe you really are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

My sources for this are Associated Press and Fox 5 and actually WNEP as well. For my previous stuff my it was ABC and see what was the other one 11 alive. So sorry for forgetting to do that in the Georgia case. So Pennsylvania, this is a tragedy where a on Thursday which was August 7th, a woman named Lori Wasco was killed by her neighbor. She was 47 years old and she was really well known in the area as just a really vibrant, lovely person. Somebody who liked to laugh, you know just just you know she was tough like she wasn't gonna just let you walk all over her. But she was a solid friend and just very beloved and she was unfortunately shot and killed by her 61 year old neighbor who I'm not gonna name he this was all happening in Susquehanna county and in in Thompson Township specifically. There's been unconformed, unconfirmed reports in the news media that say this guy was a real problem. Maybe he did a home invasion recently. It's not clear. None of it looks confirmed to me so make of that what you will but sort of indicating that there were some underpinnings in the community where this guy was a. A problem and maybe again, should have been locked up before he did this, because what he did was horrible. So he shoots to death, Laurie, killing her, and then he essentially lays lies in wait to ambush police when they come to respond to this scene. So he starts firing these two. These two troopers from the Pennsylvania State Police, Joseph Parachinsky and William Jenkins, show up, and he starts firing dozens of rounds with a semiautomatic weapon. And again, like, why does a guy like this need a weapon like this? Come on. So he. He shoots them, and he's also shooting at a police drone. And, you know, there's all this fear. Like, he's. He has a gun. He's sitting next to this propane tank. According to the Associated Press, there was concerns he might use that as a bomb. It's just a mess. So Parachinsky's shot twice. He manages to put a tourniquet on Jenkins, and then he commandeers, like, a tractor trailer to block the road to prevent other drivers from coming up on this mess and getting shot themselves. So that's incredibly heroic. This. The shooter, the gunman in the situation was killed. His motives are being looked at. But again, it just. Sometimes people are just bad. Like, we don't. We don't need to rationalize everything. Like, we're never going to understand half of this stuff because you and I, maybe we're not normal. Maybe we're a little morbid. We like to listen to and produce true crime podcasts, but we're. We're. We're operating in the world where we don't really want to hurt other people or certainly not kill other people. And it's just hard to get in the mindset of somebody who does. And we can try, and I think it's worthy to try, but I think it's also important to say that there's a limitation to trying. Look at Ted Bundy, right? When people were asking him, well, why'd you do this? At one point, wasn't he just, like, blaming pornography?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think that was it. I don't think that was it. Like, I mean, I'm not. Not defending or criticizing pornography, but I think a lot of guys probably looked at pornography and were not doing what he was doing. So I think there's a little more to it than that. So even when you have it straight from the horse's mouth of someone saying, here's why I did it, we have to be skeptical about that, you know, and we have to Be skeptical about things like, well, he was mentally ill. Well, a lot of people are mentally ill, and they're not doing this nonsense. You know, we have to acknowledge that there's some things we cannot understand and that maybe are not even clear to the person doing it. But anyways, fortunately, Jenkins and Parachinsky survived despite their injuries. And it sounds like they've been recovering and may have even sort of been released. And, you know, they had a little thing where they left the hospital and hugged each other, which is very nice. And I, you know, that's very heroic of them. And so I'm very glad that they did not die, but it's very sad that Laurie did die. And again, you know, for. For no good reason. You know, I just think there's a lot of people running around that should not have guns and should not be out in society. And the sooner that we sort of figure out how to take care of that in a way that's fair and does not, you know, put people in horrible, warehoused, awful institutions like there were in the past, I think the sooner society gets a little bit better. Because, you know, right now it just kind of just seems like chaos out there. I mean, now crime rates are at a record low, or, you know, they're certainly maybe not a record low. Crime rates. Crime rates have dropped. We're not in the crime wave of the 70s, 80s, and, you know, whatnot. But it still seems like a lot of this seems just so preventable where you have someone who's, like, a clear problem for a while, perhaps should be living in a place with some support and, like, lack of access to things that they could use to hurt themselves or others. And we're just, you know, we're just kind of collectively shrugging our shoulders at that as a society. It feels like, even though I think it's probably something people can get behind regardless of their political beliefs, you don't want to have a situation where, like, you know, a husband could commit their wife for wanting to divorce them. That's, you know, that's something that could have been possible in the past. But I think when there's someone who has a documented history of not being able to handle life for whatever reason. I think that sometimes what we're doing right now is not humane. What we're doing right now is essentially letting them hurt themselves or putting them in prison for stuff that they inevitably do after they, you know, gotten. Gotten nowhere in terms of anything else. So it's just an. It's not a good situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not a Good situation.

[Anya Cain]

I think we're going to go to across the Atlantic Ocean now maybe, but maybe also north to Wisconsin. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a Wisconsin connection to this UK crime.

[Anya Cain]

That sounds like a weird sequel to the French Connection.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The Wisconsin Connection.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sources, NBC News and the New York Post. And spoiler alert, no one dies in this story.

[Anya Cain]

That's why we're ending on it, because it's a little more uplifting. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we're probably. There's. There's parts that I find a little ridiculous. We're probably laugh a bit about it. But I think it's important to know that even when you have a kind of a stupid criminal doing stupid things, it does hurt people and it does cause real emotional and psychic damage to people. I'm reminded of this. This case that happened about 25 years ago in my hometown of Columbus, Indiana, where I got to spend a summer working with. Hanging out with a criminal court judge. I say working with, basically hanging out with. I was hanging out with him and getting course credit. I got to go.

[Anya Cain]

It sounds like a sitcom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just got to follow him around and see a lot of interesting things. And I got law school credit for it. I'm not sure why. I didn't really do anything, so I won't be.

[Anya Cain]

You helped those police officers on the boat.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. That's a story for another time. So there was this case where there was a restaurant in Columbus, a nice restaurant in Columbus is. All restaurants in Columbus are nice.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, it's the Athens of the Prairies.

[Anya Cain]

Is it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's a nice restaurant. And the side of the restaurant that is closest to the road has, like, large windows. And you can look through the windows, you see busy traffic. And then on the other side of the street, there's like a pay phone. There's like a nice city park. So it's a lovely view. And so one day, a gentleman goes to this restaurant with a gun, and he brandishes it to the cashier. Give me all your money in the cash register. He takes the money. The people in the restaurant are scared. What's going on? And then after he completes his robbery and gets his booty, he goes across the street to the payphone. He calls a cab from the payphone and then sits down by the payphone to wait for the cab to arrive. And so this obviously gives the people inside the restaurant time to call police. And he's picked up. And so I can tell you that people in the law community were really laughing about this and making fun of It. And, oh, what an idiot. Hi. Everybody thought it was just the merriest prank of all. Just, ha, ha, ha, how rich. But then the cashier who had the gun put in her face comes in and offers testimony in this really funny case, and she is, like, crying, and she's had trouble sleeping, and it just made me feel bad for finding any marriage.

[Anya Cain]

She thought she was gonna die, you know? Like, imagine that, having a gun pointed at you, like, the terror. So, yeah, I mean, it's one thing to say, well, no one got hurt, but it's another. That's why when, like, we were talking about DB Cooper once, it was like, yeah, no one died. That's good. And it's like, yeah, but people were flying around thinking they were gonna blow up. Like, that's not nothing. Like, that's pretty psychologically damaging. So, I mean, that's why whenever people are like, well, this guy was a robber, but he didn't kill anyone. It's like, yeah, but he pointed a gun at people, so he could have killed people. And obviously, he was okay with people feeling like they were gonna die, which is horrible. I mean, so I. I think that was a good lesson for everyone who was laughing about that that day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With that said, I'm sure we're gonna be laughing about this one. Well, yeah, but we should feel bad about it, I guess.

[Anya Cain]

Well, we should feel bad about it. I think you can balance it. I think it's okay. I mean, we can dunk on the criminals, right? I mean, I don't mind dunking on them, but at the same time, we have to acknowledge that this is a pretty serious situation for anyone dealing with it. And certainly, if any of us were involved in something where someone was plotting to kill us and then we found out about it, we would probably not be laughing about it. I don't know. I'm so burned out. I might be laughing about it about myself, but I would understand if other people wouldn't be. So what happened?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, so there's this guy, Mohammed Nabeel Nazir, and I apologize if I mispronounced this name. He goes on a dating app. And Anya, I don't. Obviously, I'm a happily married man, so these dating apps, I don't truck with them, as the kids say. But my understanding is, in this workaday world, it can be hard to find somebody to be your partner. And maybe it can be hard to find the right person on a dating app. But this guy, not only does he find this. He finds this woman. Amy Betrow, Mr. Nazir lives in England. Ms. Betrough lives in Wisconsin. And I guess there's some sort of a connection, because she then is willing to come to England and kill a guy for him.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because there had been some sort of fight in a clothing store, and they said, we got to kill the guy who owns this clothing store. Will you do it? And she says, sure. So also, if you're a young lady using a dating app and you get a message, oh, there's a fight at a clothing store. Let's kill a guy. You think, hey, that's the guy for me.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And look, he wants to include me in his hobbies. So is that. I mean, I don't understand people.

[Anya Cain]

I would. I don't. I don't. How did. Were they talking? Did they, like, really hit it off and then he hits it with. Or does he.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know. It says that he had apparently. They apparently met on the app maybe before the fight of the clothing store. But I.

[Anya Cain]

You know what? Like, I. I had a bit of experience with dating apps.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not before you met me, I hope.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, no, yes. I. Before I met you, I, you know, I think I was, like, on Hinge or Bumble or something, and they're awful. Like, I just hated that. Like, that was so, like, you know, like, you just like, oh, my gosh, am I gonna meet, like, a serial killer? Like, you know, you're just like, this is. It's a dehumanizing experience for everyone. I think, at least in my experience, maybe others.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How did you describe yourself in your profile?

[Anya Cain]

I. I cringe to think I have. No, I don't remember. Like, I blacked a lot of it out. I had some really awkward dates, and I don't think that was necessarily criticizing anybody else. I. I'm just kind of an awkward person, and I was very nervous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've told me some of these stories in which you did criticize someone that.

[Anya Cain]

Was one guy, but everyone else was. I mean, fine, but that was one guy that was. That was a terrible date. But I. I. I'm like, yeah, like, I can't imagine any. Like, I can't imagine my back and forth. Oh, so what kind of hobbies do you have? Well, I'm trying to get this murder off the ground. I can't imagine. I can't imagine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There was this fight at this clothing store.

[Anya Cain]

It's pretty. Pretty steamed about this fight at the clothing store. You know, I think that's when you kind of start to, like, slide out of someone's DMs if you're. If you're a normal person, not like, hey, let me help you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm guessing if when I met you, I said. And you said, kevin, what's your life like? I said, well, you know, Anya, I got into a fight at a clothing store. Let's kill the guy. You'd be saying, oh, boy.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would tell you if. If I was in a different life and I was on the market, as they say, and I got into a fight at the clothing store and I was on dating apps. I wouldn't have mentioned the clothing store.

[Anya Cain]

No, I wouldn't have mentioned it either. And honestly, like, how thirsty do you have to be to, like, be like, ah, yes, this. This dating connection on this dating app is going so well that I. I'm gonna actually try to up the ante and impress this person by participating in the hit. Like how, like how bad? I mean, I don't. I don't know. This is where it's like, I can't put myself in the mindset. I don't understand that. That's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Like, here's the thing. I. We talk about, like, you know, people being each other's ride or die, like in Fast and Furious. And, you know, I can understand being a situation where it's like, we've been married for 30 years. This man was our business partner, betrayed us, let's kill him. I don't agree with that. That's a messed up way of dealing with things. But you can understand how something like that happens where the couple is lockstep with each other and, yeah, we gotta get revenge. This is a situation. You're in Wisconsin, just log off. Yeah. Or preferably tell the police that someone's plotting a murder. But don't get your, like, I. So little going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When you were on the dating app, did people try to get you to commit crimes for them?

[Anya Cain]

Well, I'm not going to comment on that. No. Yeah, no one ever did. No one ever saw my nerdy, weird profile with terrible pictures and was like, this woman looks like she knows how to handle a hit. Let's go to her. Let's get her expertise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are you a little disappointed?

[Anya Cain]

No, I, I don't like to do. I don't want to do any crimes. And I, Yeah, I don't know. My. My profile was that I. I think I was like, I like history. Here's a picture of me on a. I don't know, like on a bridge or on the one of the ships at Jamestown. Just, like, sad. Oh, God, I'm like, having all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did you get, like, lots of pitches or.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you call responses? Not pitches, pitches.

[Anya Cain]

Let me pitch you on a date. No, I don't feel like I did. I just. I don't know, it was just. I didn't. I didn't like it. I'm not really. I'm not really made to, like, date, I think, or like, not like date, but like, you know, kind of just like. It's like, oh, let's have dinner and talk. I don't know, it's like, awkward. You know, like, you and I hit it off when we were friends first, and then eventually we kind of got together, fell. Fell in love and whatnot. But that's easier for me. Like, that's like. That's more normal than, I don't know, other people can do it, and that's great. And I know people have met people on the dating app, so I'm not trying to knock em for everyone. I just don't have that personality. I'm too awkward. I'm too nervous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember when I first mentioned, as you say, we were friends, and you talked about some of your dating experiences in your dating app. And didn't I say, well, Anya, maybe you don't need to date? Maybe you should just wait for the right person just to come along?

[Anya Cain]

And his name's Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, I'm pretty clever.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you were playing. You were, like, doing the 5D chess with me. Is that was that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I digress.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that was pretty obvious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the intent was. Okay, there's this fight at the clothing store. Let's kill the owner of the store's son.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God, that's awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who's an adult? He's an adult.

[Anya Cain]

But still.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So she says, sure, that sounds pretty good. And so she comes over to the UK and there is footage of this woman approaching the son. The son's name is. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing this and I apologize. Sikander ali. She approaches Mr. Ali's gun and she approaches his car and fires her gun at him at point blank range, which the gun jammed. Thank goodness.

[Anya Cain]

Thank gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, but imagine how that must feel to see a strange woman coming up at you with a gun and start firing.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He. He gets away. So the woman, Ms. Betro. She then sends a text to the man's father saying, where are you hiding? Stop playing hide and seek. You were lucky it jammed. Always a good idea. To text your victims.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She then takes a taxi to the Ali home and fires three shots at the property. Later on, she sends parcels of ammunition to the uk and so all this is traced to her. And they said she took real no steps to hide what she had done. She did try to claim that the woman in the footage firing the gun was not her. It was just someone who dressed, looked and sounded like her.

[Anya Cain]

Her hairstyle is a choice. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you use that excuse a lot.

[Anya Cain]

I, I've said, oh, when things, when things are going wrong around here, I just say that someone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You say, kevin, I know this dinner didn't turn out well, but it wasn't cooked by me. It was just cooked by someone who dresses, looks, and sounds like me.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks for making me sound insane. And also, that's not true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not true. Because your meals are delicious. Your famous five alarm chicken.

[Anya Cain]

And I don't make a doppelganger Anya up in order to get away with bad actions in life. Just so everybody knows.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you're a great cook.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. You know, like, oh, this is so embarrassing. Like, you see her actual mug shot and then you see all the filtered pictures of her. Yikes. Just yikes. No, you, no woman should ever be this desperate. You know, this is this. I feel, I feel like we like a collective sense of embarrassment on behalf of her. Like, you're, you're, like you're, you're risking, literally risking it all, risking it all for a man you're chatting with on the Internet. In what world, in what world, in what world could anyone think. Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, in fairness, it was a pretty bad fight at that clothing store.

[Anya Cain]

I just imagine clothes flying around. I, I, I just, I, I just, like, she must, like, some people are just delusional and they think like, oh, I'm like a sexy assassin lady and I'm kind of a badass. And then they have no idea what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She had no real criminal history. So it's just that makes it even.

[Anya Cain]

More bizarre, risking it all for a man on a dating app. I can't imagine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this happened and she was convicted and she's going to be sentenced soon.

[Anya Cain]

I hope she sentenced for the rest of her life because, like, if you're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That dumb, then thank God the man lived. But I, I feel so bad. That must have been terrifying.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, like some wacky ass woman just coming up and shooting at you because of some stupid fight at a clothing store and you're just trying to live your life. That's Horrible. I feel bad for him. Feel bad for his family. That must have been terrifying. But I'm glad that this. The people who engineered this, you know, attracted just such a inept person because, you know, that's, again, like, why. Why. I just don't. How do you get into a situation? You know, I. I mean, here's the thing. I've been, you know, as I mentioned, I was pretty bad at dating, so I've been kind of, you know, I was kind of lonely before I met you, but I can't imagine being so lonely and so sad that, you know. Hey, do you want to murder someone with me? Oh, no, thanks. FBI, Please, please respond to this. Like, I just. I can't even imagine being in that mindset. Must be a lot of, like, lack of self worth or something. I don't even know. What do you think? I mean, you've been. You've at times have been single in your life. Would you. Could you have gotten involved in a murder plan?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin looks at me, horrified. Now you're looking wistful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, is the person like Ann Margaret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, if Ann Margaret wants you to murder someone, but you won't murder someone for me. Interesting. I'm just kidding. I would never ask you to murder somebody. I. Yeah. I don't know. It's just sad. Very sad. But I. I hope the family that was targeted recovers. And are they going after the guys who organized this, too?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They've already been convicted.

[Anya Cain]

Good. Hope it was worth it over a clothing store fight. I mean, what in the world? Just move on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Speaking of moving on, we have a couple of events to discuss and announce. We're going to have the day our book is published. We're going to have an event at a bookstore sponsored by a bookstore. I guess you better bring your oven mitts because the books would be hot off the presses. It'd be steaming hot. And so the book will have just been published and you can come and talk to us about it. That's in Westfield, Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

It's at Westfield, Indiana. And it's going to be 7 to 9pm it looks like, and it's gonna be really fun. And that one is a ticketed event, so you have to buy tickets.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, if I wanted to find this ticket, where would I go?

[Anya Cain]

Eventbrite. And we will include the link in our show notes. And we'll be there. We'll be talking about the book and we'll be, you know, that's a situation where. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me ask you this, Anya. What if I don't wanna bring my oven mitts. I don't wanna burn my hands on the book that's hot off the presses. But maybe a few days later I might enjoy getting a biscuit. Is there a way I can get a biscuit and get a book signed?

[Anya Cain]

Actually, bizarrely, there is. We are so excited. On August 30, we are going to be posting. We're gonna be. We're gonna be having it from 11 on Saturday, August 30th, from 11 to 1pm we're gonna be at the Buttermilk Biscuit Company and Coffee Shop in Delphi, Indiana. So this is an event we're doing in Delphi. We love the Buttermilk biscuit, people. We love the buttermilk biscuit biscuits. They're very good. Come there, get a biscuit with us. We'll sign your book. That one's not gonna have like. We don't really have a lot of stock ourselves as far as books go. So just make sure to bring, you know, a book to that because we have a few. A small handful. But if there's a run on the bank, sort of, so to speak. It's a wonderful lifestyle. We're gonna, we're gonna run out of books really fast. So I would suggest bring your own book to make sure you get it signed. But it's gonna be fun, hopefully. And we're gonna. I'm just excited for it. It'll be nice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Of course we're going to CrimeCon. Don't we have an event coming up in Franklin, Indiana?

[Anya Cain]

We have a. Something in Franklin, October 3rd.

[Kevin Greenlee]

October 3rd.

[Anya Cain]

Doors open at 5pm so in Franklin. And we will be including a link in our show notes about that one. But yeah, that's gonna be Franklin and there's gonna be. There's some in the works for other places.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are we going back to Kendallville?

[Anya Cain]

We're going back to Kendallville. Let me see when.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I. I can tell people maybe you remember this from last year when we went to Kendallville. Was the last year we went to Kendallville.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I really spent a lot of time researching the fried fish market in that area. And so I think I've made my conclusions about where the. There's lots of great fish there, but I have my favorite places. And so Anya and I, prior to the event will be doing a circuit of various fried fish places to really load up on a lot of fried fish prior to speaking.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At least I will be.

[Anya Cain]

You will be. I know you will be. And there's a couple of other things. September 12, 6, 30 to 8, we're doing an event at the Greenwood Library. And September 15, 6 to 8, we're going to Columbus.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Columbus, Indiana, my hometown.

[Anya Cain]

There'll be more information about all these released at some point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, the thing about Columbus is it's the Athens of the Prairies.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, is it now?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, and I will say this, September 5th to 7th will be a crime con in Denver, Colorado.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Does your hometown have a nickname like Athens of the Prairies?

[Anya Cain]

No. No, it doesn't. You're pretty proud of that, aren't you? I thought you looked it up and you found that they weren't the Athens of the Prairies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of places. It's not like there's only one Athens of the Prairies. It's not like there's a formal designation. It's not like scientists study it and run the numbers with their little. And the little green lampshades. It's just you can call it Athens of the Prairies if you want.

[Anya Cain]

I seem to have hit a nerve and I want.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's whimsical.

[Anya Cain]

And then just as a note, this is something we're offering. You know, if you can't make a book signing right now, all the ones we have are, I think, in Indiana, except for Denver, we're looking at going more far afield than that. But we can't guarantee anything because we would, you know, it would be out of pocket for us. And we are not millionaires, but we want to meet as many people as possible. But if the off chance you, you have a book that you want signed but you aren't thinking you're going to make it to anything, we're signing book plates and if you pre order, we will send you one for free. And yes, we've gotten a lot of questions. What if I ordered on Amazon? I'm talking about everyone. Well, what if I got an audiobook? You can still get a book plate if you want it. I don't know where you'd put it, but maybe you just have it to hang on to or. And then. Oh, with ebooks, same thing. If you pre order it, you get a book plate. That's it. No questions asked. The link to it is in our Facebook group and you could also email us and get it that way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're not allowed to say who the narrator of the audiobook is.

[Anya Cain]

No. Yeah, we can't announce that yet, but we will at some point and we. There is an audiobook, though. And as for people, it has a narrator, it has a Narrator. Someone will be speaking the words.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's your hint. So you should be able to figure.

[Anya Cain]

Out who could be. So then there's also stuff where people are asking us, like, how do I get it internationally? What we were told by our agent is, ask your local bookstore if they can get it. That's probably the best way. And. And there's also complicated international rights that will, I'm sure, be worked out at some point. And. But that's all much I don't. We. That's above our pay grade. If you have a book club or if you have an event in mind that you want us to do, email [e-mail] and we'll try to make it work one way or another. And we are very excited. And also if you're a creator or if you're a podcaster, if you're whatever. And you want to talk to us about the book on your show again, murdersheetmail.com we're, we're very, very interested in spreading the word about what really happened in this case. I think there's been so much misinformation in Delphi that this is kind of cleansing the palette, I think, for society to understand what happened here and what did not happen here. So we're excited.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can hear it in your voice.

[Anya Cain]

Yep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The excitement.

[Anya Cain]

Well, it's been a long road, so I am excited for it to be out there. We're already, I'm sure, getting attacked and slammed in certain quarters about, oh, they're, you know, but like, I, I think this will be a. An opportunity for people to actually learn the truth.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And everything in the book. We were very careful. It's all been sourced and double sourced.

[Anya Cain]

And so if, you know, certain YouTubers want to, like, throw a hissy fit and cry about it, you know, that's fine. It doesn't change.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think if you look at our. Our history on this case, we have a pretty good record for being very incredible.

[Anya Cain]

It's really interesting being told like, oh, you know, people who lie constantly are saying that we're liars. And it's like, yeah, I think, I think might. That might be the opposite, champ. But I guess you do. You get ahead of the story, right? Isn't that what it's all about? They're liars. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I, I think that people want to hear a dating story from you. You said you had some bad ones.

[Anya Cain]

What. Why are you doing this to me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I know what the people want Know what they're thinking. Ever. Ever since you said, oh, I have some bad dating stories.

[Anya Cain]

I mentioned the boat story for you and you sidestep that one. You jumped into the water.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want to do a fair Exchange?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, sure. I'll do mine first and you do yours.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Mine's a little off color and yours is more funny. It's a little off color. And so maybe people can enjoy yours and then say, well, I don't want to hear an off color story so I can tune out.

[Anya Cain]

I went on a date with a guy. I'm not going to go into details. And I. I didn't really have much experience dating or being in a relationship ever. I was, I'm. I'm kind of. I'm kind of shy in a weird way in my personal life. Like, I'm not, you know, not really, like, putting myself out there. I'm a bit, you know, I don't know, I'm just kind of weird. So I go on this date and one important thing is I had just read Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders, and I really liked that novel. It's all about death and Abraham Lincoln and his son Willie Lincoln. And it's very sad. And so, you know. And also I studied history in college. I. Civil War was not my focus, but I always had a love for the Civil War in the sense of studying it and learning about all the interesting characters. And it's like, truly, you know, very dramatic and interesting period and very sad. So I always liked Lincoln. I always had, like a soft spot for him as far as presidents go. I think he's our best president and I think he's great. So that's some context coming into this. So we're on this date. It's super awkward. He kind of starts, like, mansplaining aspects of my job. And listen, sometimes people, when I say mansplaining, someone's just being too talkative or whatever. But I kept on saying, well, actually it's like this. And he'd be like, no, it's not. And it would be like, what? I. I'm the one who actually works there, so what's going on? And then we somehow gets weirdly political. I didn't make it weirdly political. He did. He starts saying all these kind of just, I don't know, kind of off the wall things. And then he starts saying that, like we were talking, like we were talking about, like, history or I was enjoying, like, I talked about enjoying American history. And somehow this, you know, Civil War comes up and he starts going off on Lincoln as, like, a war criminal. And I was just like, first of all, who the hell? Thanks, Hinge. And second of all, how dare you? Like, I've just been crying about Abraham Lincoln on the train because he lost his son. How dare you? And I got really mad. But, yeah, that was it. It was very awkward. And then, like, I kind of ended it pretty quickly. But then afterwards, he was like, oh, do you want to come back to my place? No. Buzz off with your bad Lincoln op. Good Lord. I'm not saying he was perfect. I'm uncomfortable with the suspension of Habeas Corpus, but buzz off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if that guy. If that guy had been a little bit more discreet about Lincoln, I probably never would have met you. You'd be doing a completely different podcast.

[Anya Cain]

Things were not going well. Things were not going well beyond the Lincoln thing. The Lincoln thing just made me get.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mean you're like a Southern history podcast with him?

[Anya Cain]

No. Oh, my God, The Confederate. Ugh. It's like, dude, you're from the North. What the hell are, like, dumb cosplay are you doing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So are we done? Should we push the button? It's worth a try. So remember, this is the story Anya wanted me to tell.

[Anya Cain]

This is off color. If you don't like off color stories, get out of here now. Bye.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a bit ribald.

[Anya Cain]

Is that was ribald? I don't know. I. Is this another Luttrell. Luttrell thing? I don't know. Who knows what's going on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I'll tell it delicately because I'm not Redd Fox over here. I'm a gentleman. So is that you just took a.

[Anya Cain]

Big swig of seltzer, and then you made me laugh, so that's why it sounded so weird.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, as I say, I spent that summer hanging out with a judge and getting course credit for it. And as part of that, the judge said, I want you to get lots and lots of experience. And I'm a law student. I think this was between maybe my first and second year of law school. And he says, you should, like, hang out with law enforcement people who do different things. And one of the law enforcement personnel he has me hang out with are the guys who ride boats out on Lake Monroe on weekends. So these are Lake Monroe. Often people go there to party in their boats, and so you need law enforcement to go in their boats to go make sure everything is on the up and up. And so I'm hanging out with these cops on this boat.

[Anya Cain]

Are you in a Life preserver. Like, were you in life vest?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Probably. I can't swim, so I probably was. I'll be honest with you. I don't remember.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Now I'm worried retroactively, but go ahead.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm here.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry. I know. But it's worrisome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It turned out well.

[Anya Cain]

Did it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, you know, you know, sometimes, like, people get ideas which might seem, like, exciting or cool when they're in their heads, but then when they're happening in real life, maybe they're not so exciting and cool. And so we get a report that something potentially untoward is happening on a boat. And so we go up to this boat, and on the deck of the boat, there are two women in, like, string bikinis. Very revealing bikinis. I remember that detail.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I bet you do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very revealing bikinis. And each of them is holding a giant inflatable toy that is the male sexual organ. And they are hitting each other with it back and forth as a very listless crowd of guys watches.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the guy, maybe somebody thought, well, this would be, like, really hot and sexy. But no one really seems to be enjoying it, because when you think about it, just watching two women just very. Just hitting each other, very light. They're just, like, tapping each other with it. That's not fun for anybody.

[Anya Cain]

So you were there to liven it up. No, I'm just kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So one of the officers says, well, Kevin, you're the lawyer, you're the expert. Is this illegal? We didn't cover that in law school, but apparently there was a boat nearby that had some youngsters on it, and their parents had complained. And again, I could tell no one was enjoying this. No one looked at me saying, yeah, it was just very. A metronome. One lady hits the other, one hits the other. They're not smiling. They're not giggling. The guys look bored. And I think I said, why don't you tell them that? Why don't you ask them to stop, because there's kids in the area. And they did. And it looked like everyone's spirits improved immediately as soon as the women put these things down.

[Anya Cain]

I want to know how this started.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Somebody on that boat thought it would be either funny or sexy, and it was neither.

[Anya Cain]

Lake Monroe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So then they put down the inflatable organs. And then everybody on the boat seems very happy and relieved, like some great burden has been lifted from their shoulders. And then the day goes on.

[Anya Cain]

So you saved the day at the lake for these people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right.

[Anya Cain]

With your common sense law student advice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right.

[Anya Cain]

But what they were doing was not illegal. Right. It was just perhaps in poor taste around the children.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't have the public indecency statute.

[Anya Cain]

These are pulling out legal books.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hit the button. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We're obsessed with our Quint's pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is Quints?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable.

[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors and you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses because, like, I feel like I have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style, so I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just Looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too, because Kevin insists on me buying new hats, so I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I. I just really. Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are, and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quinte. Go to quinn's.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.commsheet you know, Anya, we are in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was Simplisafe.

[Anya Cain]

Simplisafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit, veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisafe, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard, outdoor protection, that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 24, 7 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe.