Murder Sheet Podcast

Episode: The CIA, Chaos, and Clandestine Matters with David McCloskey

Date: March 4, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Guest: David McCloskey – Former CIA Analyst, Spy Novelist, Co-host of The Rest is Classified

Episode Overview

This special episode of the Murder Sheet shifts from its regular true crime investigations to delve into the shadowy world of intelligence and espionage. With geopolitical events taking center stage—namely, the United States and Israel’s joint strikes on Iran (Operation Epic Fury)—the discussion turns to the real and fictional lives of spies. The hosts interview David McCloskey, an acclaimed spy novelist and former CIA analyst, whose new thriller The Persian explores the covert conflict between Israeli and Iranian intelligence services.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David McCloskey’s CIA Experience

Background and Recruitment

• McCloskey joined the CIA very young, first as an undergraduate intern, then full-time after graduation ([04:08]).
  • “They try to get to people pretty early in their college careers ... before you’ve made bad decisions that will make it harder to pass a polygraph or a drug test.” — McCloskey [04:13]
• His prior work experience before joining was non-traditional: digging holes for a sprinkler company and working as a Wendy’s cashier—CIA was his next résumé entry ([04:20]).

Role and Training

• Served as an analyst specializing in Syria and broader Middle East topics until 2014.
• Lived in Damascus and traveled extensively across the region ([04:42]).
• Underwent specialized analytic training to think critically, communicate effectively, and write precise, evidence-based memos ([08:04]).

From Intelligence to Writing

• Analytical habits—economy of words, understanding motives, and “trained empathy”—served him as a novelist ([09:35]).
  • "At the Agency, they spend a lot of time teaching you to be very economical with your words and to be very precise." — McCloskey [09:54]
• Explains “trained empathy”: understanding the psychological and systemic drivers behind even the darkest behaviors ([12:00]).

Writing for the White House

• Describes the mix of excitement and tedium in drafting memos for the President’s Daily Brief ([14:20]).
  • “At first, it’s really cool, and then over time… you just kind of get used to it, and then it stops being cool and you’re like, oh, this means I have to stay super late tonight while 10 people edit that document.” — McCloskey [14:23]
  • Feedback was often limited to “read with interest” ([15:15]).

2. Real vs. Fictional Espionage

CIA's True Mission

• The CIA's core mission: “the theft of secrets to give our government an information advantage… Even allied governments.” ([16:53])
• Covert action—shaping outcomes in foreign countries—exists but is distinct from the core intelligence-gathering mission.

Debunking the ‘Superhero Spy’ Myth

• Action-packed spy portrayals in film and books are “almost entirely a myth.”
  • “The actual work of the agency is much more similar to investigative journalism than to an action flick.” — McCloskey [18:51]
• Most day-to-day work is methodical, human-driven, and low on violence or overt danger, contrary to popular media ([18:51], [28:05]).
• McCloskey acknowledges even his own novels indulge in some spy tropes, though he strives for as much authenticity as possible ([18:51]).

Tradecraft Reality

• As an analyst, McCloskey was not trained in tradecraft (field agent skills), but he has amassed knowledge through relationships with case officers as a novelist ([29:48]).
• Most case officers rarely face physical danger; the dangers are often exaggerated in fiction ([28:05]).

3. The Craft of Spy Fiction

Personal Literary Influences

• Grew up reading spy novels and military techno-thrillers, notably Daniel Silva and Jason Matthews ([21:55], [23:38]).
  • Describes a period after joining the CIA when he stopped reading spy fiction, but later returned to it, finding renewed appreciation for authentic voices like Matthews ([21:55]).

The Persian

• Plot centers on Kamran Isfahani, a bored Persian-Jewish dentist in Stockholm, recruited by Mossad for covert operations in Tehran under the pretext of setting up a dental practice ([35:16]).
  • “The offer is basically: go into Iran, go back to Tehran, because Cam can go in and out, set up a dental practice there. We’ll use that as a cover for surveillance and smuggling and some other nasty stuff.” — McCloskey [35:41]
• The story follows a botched operation, sudden deaths of Mossad officers, and Cam’s efforts to keep a vital secret while in Iranian captivity ([37:13]).
  • Novel told partly in first person as Cam’s final confession while imprisoned ([37:18]).

Inspiration and Research

• No CIA characters in The Persian despite his background; story is grounded in extensive research on Israeli-Iranian intelligence operations ([39:02]).
  • “As the operation in Iran became more daring and potentially violent, my colleagues... said, ‘There’s no way we would work with Mossad on this’... so I cut the American characters.” — McCloskey [39:22]

Tradecraft & Ethics in Writing

• Uses personal CIA network to recruit former case officers and specialists to fact-check and provide insight for his novels ([31:23]).
• All manuscripts are submitted to the CIA’s Publication Review Board for security clearance before publication ([33:53]).

4. Podcasting & Storytelling

The Rest is Classified

• Co-hosts a twice-weekly podcast, The Rest is Classified, with British journalist Gordon Carrera ([41:12]).
  • Focuses on true spy stories across history and the globe, examining real intelligence cases and the mechanics of espionage ([41:20]).
  • “The bread and butter of it is Gordon and I having a conversation... about a chapter in espionage history... and try to explain through the story how the spy business actually works.” — McCloskey [41:32]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The superhero spy is not really a thing... It’s much more like you have a story you’re trying to tell, you have people you want to tell that story to.” — David McCloskey [18:51]
• “I mean, when I was in Syria, like, the macabre guys who were following me around, I actually appreciated it because I knew that if someone, like, tried to rob me, they would probably intervene.” — David McCloskey [28:17]
• On his writing process: “The kind of trained empathy that I think the agency tries to beat into you and does beat into you over time as an analyst, turns out is pretty helpful... as you’re trying to understand the motivations of your characters.” — David McCloskey [11:14]
• “Yeah, well, cocaine helps. You don’t need as much sleep when you’re coked up.” — David McCloskey, joking about balancing writing and podcasting [41:12]

Important Timestamps

• CIA Recruitment & Early Days: [04:08] – [07:54]
• Analyst Training & "Trained Empathy": [08:04] – [12:00]
• Writing for the President: [14:06] – [16:34]
• Myths vs. Reality in Espionage: [16:53] – [21:48]
• On Spy Fiction Influences: [21:55] – [23:38]
• Work in Middle East & Field Stations: [26:06] – [28:05]
• Tradecraft, Research, and the Pub Review Board: [29:48] – [33:53]
• Synopsis of The Persian: [35:16] – [38:21]
• Podcasting About Espionage: [41:12] – [43:10]

Additional Resources

• David McCloskey’s books and website: davidmccloskeybooks.com
• Podcast: The Rest is Classified
• The Persian and McCloskey’s other novels available via links in the show notes.

This episode offers a candid, occasionally humorous, and always insightful window into the real world of spies and spy fiction. For fans of espionage thrillers or anyone curious about the realities behind the myths, McCloskey’s journey from CIA analyst to novelist provides compelling food for thought.