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Fall's pretty much here and I for one am celebrating the cooler temperatures because this means I can finally break out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I love sweaters in general and these are two of my all time favorites.
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Think washable silk tops, skirts, tailored denim, lots of cool options, all at shockingly low prices. I for one am about to go on another Quints shopping spree. Kevin's excited about it too.
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I'm desperate to have Anya buy another.
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Hat maybe, but right now I'm loving my black V neck sweater and dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable and easy to maintain.
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C
I think they look really stylish, but.
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They'Re also just easy to sort of throw on with anything. And frankly, that's the kind of high quality, low effort vibe I'm going for this year. So get your Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $50 so we can all match.
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Contains discussion of rape, murder and suicide.
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I grew up in Columbus, Indiana.
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I was raised there.
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I went to Columbus East High School.
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Where I was a member of the.
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Staff of the high school newspaper there, the Oracle. So that helped develop my love for journalism and of course, crime. Of course. Columbus, as some of you may know, is the Athens of the Prairies. It's also the seat of Bartholomew County. It's got a small town feel and some rather impressive architecture. It's not especially known for its crimes. There have been a few murders of note there over the years. We got a chance to discuss a handful of those incidents at an event back on May 13th of this year. This was a terrific event that was organized by the wonderful Bonnie Boatwright and it took place at the lovely Bespoke Events right in the heart of downtown Columbus. Right at the throbbing beating heart of downtown Columbus.
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C
Your town.
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Yes, Athens of the Prairies. Bespoke is a wonderful place run by Katie and Lindy Ricks, and we were absolutely delighted to meet them. Viewpoint Books was also there. Viewpoint Books is an institution in Columbus. It was my first bookstore. I ordered lots and lots and lots of books there. It's a wonderful place and we were touched that friends and listeners from all over came to attend this event. We did a live taping of a podcast episode there, and in that episode, Anya and I both selected a number of cases that occurred in or that were somehow tied to Bartholomew county or Columbus itself. The Athens of the Prairies.
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Okay, so a pretty major caveat here. When you listen to this, please just know that the audio came out sort of weird. That is completely our bad. We really don't know what we're doing half the time. We're just struggling through life with this with audio and mixers and microphones. So we're sorry. We're so sorry. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. It sounds kind of weird. It sounds kind of off. It dips in and out a few times for some reason. I in particular sound extremely metallic and tinny. So you're getting sort of robot Anya here. And I really worked very hard to try to make it as listenable as possible. I don't know how successful I was I think it probably will depend on your tolerance. So I'm sorry. And, you know, that's just, you know, if it's driving you nuts, just skip it. Life's too short, you know, it's. And if you can roll with it, great. I think it was a really fun event. We had a great time and it kind of gives you a sense of some fun, old timey crimes and some more modern, depressing crimes that Kevin selected. So I also want to note that when this event happened back in May, we had not yet gotten word that we were selected for crimecon. So when we answer the question of we don't know if we're going to CrimeCon now, we do. We're going to be going to CrimeCon this coming weekend. So rest assured, we're so excited and we hope to see a lot of you there. It's going to be great. And I also just want to note that we're reappearing in Columbus, Indiana very soon. We're going to be reuniting with Beth Stroh from Viewpoint Books. We're going to be reuniting with Katie and Lindy from Bespoke Events, and that's going to be on Monday, September 15, from 6pm to 8pm I think the time is a little bit tentative right now. They might want to start a bit earlier. But it's definitely the evening of Monday, September 15, and it's a ticketed situation. Buy your tickets in advance. It's sure to be a really great evening. And you can find the link to this on murdersheetpodcast.com events so check that out. And you can also check that out for other events that we're gonna be doing all around.
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E
Now, Anya, if people come to this.
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Wonderful event in Columbus, the Athens of the Prairies, can they expect us live.
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And in person to sound metallic and tinny?
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Yes.
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You're going to be horrified and terrified and think, what, what's, what's going on? Why is this happening in real life?
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There'll be like sudden mysterious drops in.
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Your audio as it goes in and out.
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So that, that, that would just be part of the experience.
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It's just part of the, that's, that's what you're going to get when, when I'm around. No, no, we're not. It's going to, I'm going to sound crystal clear. I'm going to sound great. You're going to sound great. Everyone's going to sound great. It's going to be, it's going to be great.
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So we Hope to do Bespoke and Viewpoint proud.
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We hope to do the community of Columbus, Indiana, Athens, of the Prairies proud.
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E
But meanwhile, check out this episode.
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What an endorsement. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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And this is the Murder Sheet.
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We're a true crime podcast focused on.
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Original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
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We're the Murder Sheet.
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And this is the Crimes of Columbus, Indiana. A true crime Tour.
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It. Thank you so much, Bonnie. That was such a sweet introduction, and we're so excited to be here. And you guys can hear me in the back, hopefully doing this right. Don't really know anything about microphones, which is a problem given what we've chosen to do with our lives. But anyway, that was such a kind introduction, Bonnie. Thank you for inviting us here. Thank you so much to. To the wonderful people at Bespoke, Lindy and Kate, and people at Viewpoint. I mean, this is just an honor and a dream come true, especially since we absolutely adore Columbus. We spent a ton of time here bothering Kevin's parents right here and going to all the shops, and it's really wonderful. So we're just thrilled. The fact that you all took time out of your evening to come spend time with us is just an honor. And so I hope this can be an informative and hopefully fun time to kind of. We're doing. So this is a live podcast. We're going to be putting this out there. So. So you all kind of get a sneak peek of this. And what we tried to do here is really just look into crimes in Columbus history and kind of pick a. Kind of a range from the more modern to some pretty old ones. I picked the old ones. Apologies in advance. They're really old. And, you know, I think it's kind of an interesting way to get to know one's own community more. You can kind of see some of the weird stuff and troubling stuff that's happened over the years and also how the community responded. And. And so, yeah, that's. That's going to be what we're going to do. And we're going to pass the mic back and forth between us and. And that's. That's. That's how it's going to happen. All right, so I think you have the first case, right, Kevin?
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We're going to get right into it. What do you want to do? The music.
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C
Oh, do you want to do the music? Can they hear the music?
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Let's not do the music, that's just for us.
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I think we're going to be slapping that on in post production. But I guess I will say I'm. My name is Donna Kean. I'm a journalist.
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I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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We're the Murder Sheet. And this is Columbus Live episode. I don't know, we're probably going to call it something different.
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So I, I, I'm always interested to find cases and crimes that relate to other things. And there's actually a rather notorious case that has a connection to Columbus that I wasn't aware of. And this involves a woman who was working at the Days Inn back in January of 1990, and she's working the overnight shift. It's 5am A guy comes in and he says, where can I go to get something to eat, Eat or drink? She tells her there's a restaurant open. He goes, he comes back, he has a cup of coffee in his hand and he says, okay, now where can you give me some change so I can get something out of one of the vending machines? She opens up the cash register and he just abruptly tosses this hot coffee in her face. And she is overpowered at the tip of a knife. She is forced into a room in the days end where she is assaulted. And afterwards he tells her, start walking, I'll be right behind you. And she is forced out of the hotel into the darkness. And she hears his footsteps behind her and she is convinced that she is going to, to be killed. And this is the end of her life. At one point she's this is, as I say, it's January, it's very cold out, and she's walking across some thin ice and the ice breaks and she gets wet and in this cold water she keeps walking. And at some point the footsteps are no longer behind her, thank God, and she sees a house and she goes the house. She gets home help. She's treated at the hospital. She gives a full description of this man, her assailant. A sketch is made. He is not located. Subsequently, a few years later, through DNA, it is learned that the person who assaulted her is a serial killer known as the i65 killer killer. And he had been assaulting and murdering overnight employees at hotels all up and down I65. Still not clear why he didn't kill her. Thank God he didn't. But she was able to give information for a sketch and ultimately this man was identified. His name was Harry Greenwell. He was identified after he'd already passed away. So, so There was no justice in that regard. But I always just feel this woman was very brave, and some of the information she was able to provide to police helped. And it's kind of a dark case and a sad case. But I'm grateful to her for her bravery.
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C
Absolutely. For my first case, I picked one definitely further back in history. This centers around defense that took place on October 7, 1812. And this is a case that did not actually happen in Bartholomew county or Columbus. It happened in North Vernon in Jennings county, but it ends up in Columbus. This is one of those, like, exported drama things where you guys got it and it kind of blew up. But so what happened was it's about 11pm October. October 7, 1912. The McQuaid siblings have settled down for the night. They lived on a farm. They were each unmarried. It was Charles and John and then their sister Maggie. John and Maggie were both physically disabled, and Maggie got around with help from a wheelchair, and they were doing pretty well. They had a good farm. They just sold some cattle. And unfortunately, there were rumors around town that they had thousands of dollars in their house. They only had hundreds of dollars in their house. But people have a sense that they were doing better than they actually were. So, anyways, knock on the door, 7pm you know, they know all their neighbors. They, you know, Charles goes to the door and hears a male voice saying that one of their neighbors had a buggy accident. And, like, you know, there was a problem with the harness. And then the guy says, hey, can you open the door so I can get some light? He opens the door and is immediately clubbed in the head. But Charles sights back. He is trying to grab the club and trying to wrestle it away from the guy, but he finds that it's actually kind of strapped to the guy, his attacker's wrist, and it's very smooth. And he's concerned because it feels like a policeman's knees, a policeman's baton. And he's like, what that. What's going on? But anyways, this guy's attacking him and then shoots him. After he's fighting back, his brother John kind of hobbles it into the room and he's shot as well. Maggie hears the commotion, hears the gunshots, starts screaming. And their neighbor calls back that he's going to come over because he realizes something's wrong. They try to call the police once the neighbor. Meanwhile, the killers run. They run for it. But it's a really sinister scene when people start coming in and seeing what's going on here. They find that the Bell, the dinner bell that was on this farm, the string is cut, so the bell doesn't work anymore. They find that actually the telephone lines into town were also cut. So that actually kind of took out everyone's phone. So this seems to be very premeditated. And the prosecutor and man whose name I'm definitely going to mispronounce it looks like Verb Barge. So let's, let's go with Verbarge. He comes in and he's like a prosecutor, but he's also basically like the csi, I guess, because he starts actually like cutting bullets out of the wall and looking at them in the.41 caliber. So he's like, okay. So he's kind of getting a sense of what happened here. Meanwhile, neighbors, and then in the days to come, schoolboys are finding evidence all over the road outside this farm. They find a revolver holster, a policeman's cap. That's going to be important later, and what they call a lap blanket, which seemed to be like when you were riding around in a horse drawn carriage, you would basically, you know, it's like for your lap so you didn't get cold. So they're all, everyone's very concerned. The McQuades were very well regarded in town. Just nice people. And while, you know, John was killed right away, Charles does hang on for a little bit longer and gives some information. He again, he shares what he thought he was beaten with, which was a policeman's baton. And he also shares that there were two men at the door. One was the attacker, but one's kind of hanging back. So anyways, he passes away from his injuries from the gunshot, specifically, sadly enough. So they're looking for a murderer. And Verbarge gets the idea, let's put all of the evidence in the window of a local shop. I mean, it's 1912. They're doing things a little bit differently. So basically people are coming by and being like, all right, do I recognize this revolver holster? And somebody does the. This guy who owns this secondhand shop, he comes by and says, that's actually mine. And they're like, okay, well where were you? And he's like, well, I was loaning it out to this guy named Henry Robine. Well regarded guy in his 60s, has a complicated past that comes out later. But the thing about him is he was a special policeman when he got that job. He went to the secondhand shop guy and said, hey, can I borrow a gun to the north policeman now? I guess I need one. And the guy's like, sure. And what was more Disturbing is after the murders occurred, it turns out that Roman comes back, he's supposed to get the gun back and he says, actually it was stolen with a bunch of other stuff on the day of the murder. So I don't have it anymore. And it's like, okay. So anyways, he gets busted along with another special policeman, a guy named Rufus Clark, and then this guy James Tyler, he's an auctioneer locally. They're all kind of connected business wise. And they are all taken to jail in Marion county, in Indianapolis because there are concerns that, you know, they would be in danger oftentimes. In those days there were concerns about lynch mobs and people taking revenge on people who were accused of a crime. So they end up going to a different jail.
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B
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- [19:55]
A
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C
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C
This is very upsetting for people in Jennings county. People love the McQuades. And so what Roman decides to do is he wants to venue out. He wants to go to a different county to have his case tried. Do you want to talk legally about why people might choose to do that?
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E
Well, basically, if a crime happens in an area where people are talking a lot about it, you know, tensions and then passions flare up and it's more likely that people are familiar with it and people may have already formed an opinion about it. So you want to find an area where they're not so familiar with it so they'll be able to come to it with an open mind. And frankly, that's harder than it used to be because with the Internet and with mass media like in the Delphi case, everybody all over the world to some extent was following that story. But Anya is talking about all the way back in 1912 where another county awake may as well be a different world.
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C
Absolutely. And Bartholomew county really was ready because they were able to seat a jury here. It was mostly Bartholomew county farmers into Columbus. And one of my sources for researching this was actually the Republic. It did amazing trial coverage. They were locked in gavel to gavel as they Say, on Court tv, they were doing everything, and they were actually printing the names of the jurors, which would not fly now. But it was an adorable human interest story where, like, the jurors are there and they're all homesick, and then one of their kids comes to court one day and is like, daddy and is, like, running up and hugging him, doesn't understand why his dad can't come home with him. And I'm like, oh, my God. It's heartbreaking. But they were all ready, and they did some weird stuff. They, like, took the jurors on a field trip. They were, like, marching down streets of Columbus to look at stuff. And then there was a weird incident. And this kind of reminded me of you, Kevin, where they went and looked at the new sewer in Haw Creek. And there's a personal connection here because I've had to hear a lot about Haw Creek over the years. Do you want to explain that?
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E
For some reason, when I was a kid, I really, really loved Haw Creek. So I wanted to make my picture parents drive me over every single bridge over Hall Creek. I was fascinated with that creek. I don't understand why, but I was.
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C
But I. I saw Haw Creek, and my eyes lit up, and I started yelling at you, like, there's a Hawk Creek angle here. We have to do this cage. But, you know, the jurors, you know, they had little activities. So they're hanging out with the bailiff. The bailiff, like, was trying to keep him happy. But anyway, so Henry reminds me, he comes. He comes into this. And this case, people in Columbus, people in Bartholomew county were obsessed. They were. They were hanging out at the court. They wanted to know, like, the seats were packed. And you can kind of see why when you read about it, because this guy, Henry, Remind, had a. Like, he had a wild life. He had one wife who then kind of seemingly kind of mysteriously disappeared. He said she went into an insane asylum. Okay, somebody happened. And then he gets with a much younger woman and who he basically hires to take care of his kids. But then it's sort of like a Bond Trapp situation where they get married, but then it doesn't end happily. You know, they. You know, they're kind of. There's something where they can't get married, so they move towns and pretend to be married, but then she gets sick of him and just leaves. And then he marries a woman from Texas. So he's doing. There's a lot of weird stuff going on with him. And everyone in town seems to love him. They're like, he's such a nice guy, but super honest. He's a special policeman, for Christ's sake. But at the same time, everyone's like, he's deeply in debt. He owes me like $20 for groceries. Which back then is like, you know, a lot more than now, obviously. So he's not doing so well. This is all coming out at trial. And the big evidence against him specifically, of course, is the gun. It's. It's the murder weapon, it's the revolver that they are linking to these.41 caliber bullets in the house. And also the fact that he's spotted with his two sort of co defendants, although they're not. They're tried separately. And the big thing at trial is everyone's like, is your mind going to testify on his own behalf? Is he going to take the stand? Or is he going to stay silent when everyone's saying he's a murderer? And it's just fun to see the newspaper kind of like speculating about that, because we often do that in true crime now, because there's a huge risk. Do you want to talk about the huge risk of doing that? Why it's almost always a bad idea, but why everyone's always kind of suddenly tempted to put their defendant on stand.
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Everybody likes to think that you're really likable and you're charming and you can get up there and you can spin a story that will convince people of anything you want. We all like to think that about ourselves. Certainly people who are criminal defendants like to think that about themselves.
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C
Themselves.
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E
But imagine if you're in a situation where you're trying to make an impression on someone, and maybe you can do a pretty good job. But imagine if there's somebody in the room with you whose entire goal is to make you look as bad as possible. And after you say your little thing where you're trying to be charming, they're going to try to make you look as bad as possible. They're going to try to poke holes in everything you say. The odds are it's not going to be as successful as you hope. And so for that reason, it's usually not a good idea for a defendant to do that and to take that chance because, frankly, a lot of defendants just aren't able to withstand that kind of cross examination. They end up looking more bad than good.
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C
Absolutely. And it really gives a lot of defense attorneys heartburn. Sometimes the only thing to do is to put someone on the stand to, you know, juries that want to Hear their side. But often it's too great of risk. But in this case, Romine did it. He got on the stand. Despite all these sex scandals and the missing wife and the weird situation which is au pair, he did it. And I can understand why when you read about him, everyone loves him. And you know, he obviously is a charming person. He's in his 60s, he seems harmless. He's also wearing this little bronze badge to show that he was Civil War war veteran. So he's like hero and he does it and he gets up there and he speaks his piece. But ultimately he's convicted. So the jury deliberated for six hours and came back with a conviction. So he's convicted, his two accomplices are convicted of killing the McQuaid brothers. And he, the last I could find about him, he's 76 years old, he's serving his life, his life sentence for murder at Michigan City. And he is weirdly enough, given a temporary parole because it was the 55th anniversary encampment of the grand army of the Republic in Indianapolis. So for some reason the prison was like, go have fun and then come back and serve the rest of your life sentence, Mr. Civil War Veteran. So definitely a weird case and highlight some of the differences. I think nowadays we definitely would want more of that CSI evidence to be handled better. I don't think it would be be cool if the Bartholomew county prosecutor, you know, for instance, put Evans in the window here. Like that just wouldn't fly today. But back then that's kind of what they were doing. And things were a lot looser back then, I guess is the lesson.
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E
My stories that I picked are a lot more recent than and more depressing. Yes, mine are a lot more depressing. This next one is from November of 1975. A 31 year old guy, Robert Paul Jones, he doesn't have a lot of friends. Basically his only friends are a married couple that lives down the street from them. And at some point that married couple starts to have some problems in their relationship and Mr. Jones has an affair with the wife. The couple reconciles, the wife, wife breaks off the relationship with Mr. Jones and gives Mr. Jones this information. And Mr. Jones is very upset and at some point he goes over to their house and says I'm going to go and look for someone's rings to blow out. And where he goes, he goes over to what's described in the paper at the time is a cafe, a place called Paul's Cafe. It sounds more like a, a bar sort of thing. It's Open very late. And about two or three in the morning it gets to be closing time. Waitress comes over to collect the bill. He gets upset and he takes out a gun and he starts shooting. One of the bullets goes through the booth. It hits a, a woman in the Next booth, a 27 year old named Tibeth Campbell. Somebody named James E. Malone Jr. Goes over and tries to help her. He's also shot. And also in there, a person, Leslie Morris Crumb, who's 50, he's a gentleman. It's unclear if he was trying to help the victims or if he was trying to disarm the gunman. He ends up getting shot and he passes away. About a month later, an officer comes on the scene and he's able to disarm this gunman. He's taken into custody. Death threats happen. So he, he gets a change of venue and the trial is held in Bedford and it's conducted by the Barthonia county prosecutor. And I'm going to make sure I've got his name here, Richard Donnelly. At the time this happens, Mr. Donnelly has a broken leg, but he still stands up to deliver his opening statement in this case. And surprisingly enough, it ends up in a hung jury because two of the members of the jury don't feel comfortable sentencing this man to life without the possibility of parole. So the case is retried a few months later and they do get a conviction. He is sent away. There is a clemency hearing about 12 years later in 1987. And I think it's always important to remember that a lot of the stories we hear about violence and crime, sometimes they, they feel like they're a long way in the past. But if it's your family member who was shot and killed just when they're out trying to have a nice time on a weekend night that stays with you forever. So at this clemency hearing, some family members of the victims stood up for their family members. They won. He was not released and I believe he ended up passing away in prison justifiably so. Again, more of a downer than yours.
- [33:09]
C
More of a downer. This is about to get crazy, so strap in. I think this one ended up leading me to research, like five murders. So yeah. And we're going to go back in time. This is the wildest. Okay, you guys, when you think about a desperado, when you think about an outlaw, I think you probably think about maybe the old west, the Wild west, thinking about the streets of Columbus, Indiana. But you guys had one and he was insane. Don't be legally insane. I mean, I was just like, internally screaming reading about this guy. I went totally nuts on newspapers dot com. You saw it. It was like a spiral of madness. And now I'm obsessed with this situation. Anyways, let's get into it. So this is the story of Leander Buchanan McKinney, commonly known as Buck McKinney. This guy was born in Virginia, and he came to Columbus as a young boy and lived here. The story starts off amazing. He is a gallant soldier. He serves in the Mexican American War. He's a sergeant in Company F, 3rd Indiana Infantry. He distinguishes. Oh, he enlists at New Albany. He musters out of New Orleans and distinguishes himself at the Battle of Buena Vista. Sounds great. So after the war, he goes back to Columbus and he wages war against Columbus. Columbus at that time is a kind of a smaller village. Lots of farmers. It's a lot more rural, and people there are terrified of him. This, you know, he's this big guy. He's muscular. He likes to fight. He's very. They say he had an animal vitality. That sounds kind of weird, but, you know, that's what they said in the newspaper. And he first steals a horse from a businessman named William Hayes in 1850. He's acquitted, and then he goes on to beat up a lady. He attempts to kill somebody. He does something that they call official contempt. I don't really know what that means in this context, but he has a very bad reputation. And he even. It's not just within Bartholomew County. He's actually known to police in Indianapolis. They're dealing with him. He's running around and doing all this stuff. And Columbus collectively is getting sick of it. How I would describe it, reading these articles. Think about Jesse Pinkman in Breaking Bad. And he's yelling. He can't keep getting away with it. That's what everyone's doing, doing in unison in Columbus with this guy. So for some reason, he starts fighting with. There were a lot of German people living here at that time. German immigrants coming from Germany, settling here. He's beefing with all of them. He has a real problem, including with a guy named. Okay, John. I've seen this spelled of five different ways. Let's just call him John Petiot. Okay? In most articles, he's listed as just merely a saloon owner, but in fact, it seems like he was also perhaps like the sole peace officer in the area. So he's like the law, but also owns the bar. And this, you know. So anyways, he. He has a big problem with him but you know, some people are on Buck's side. In fact, there's a newspaper called the Independent here, and for some reason the owner of that, which is a guy named Lum Stebbins, which is a wonderful name, he loves Buck. He and Buck are buddies. And on the night of either November 12th or November 20th, depending on what newspaper you're reading, you know, there's. There's some trouble in town and it's okay. One thing you have to understand when you're researching old cases is there's usually like five versions of events that get printed. It's really hard to parse what exactly happened. So I'm going to tell you a couple of different versions that we can all maybe pick our own head canon of what one we like the best. But this, this guy comes into the newspaper officer office and maybe borrows a gun from the editor. And then there's another version where he's just walking down Washington street holding a boot, okay? So at that point, either John Petiot pops out of his room and shoots at him or, or McKinney starts a fight with him. Don't know when, don't know which. But this does not result in anything because a guy named Mike Eming, who was a prominent Democrat, a prominent lawyer, and also a fellow veteran who served with McKinney, knew him from the Mexican American War. He intervenes and says, buck, walk it off. He didn't literally say that, but just walk it off. Go home. You don't need to do this. We don't need to have a big fight here. And he listens. But then his wife Elizabeth, when he gets home, asks him to get a bucket of milk, okay? So then he goes back into town, gets the bucket of milk, walking around proudly with the bucket and petty, odd, apparently shoots at him again. Okay? So he ends up shooting back. There's. There's gunfire exchange and some situation where another man comes out of the saloon and says, hey, stop it. Just go away. And he shoots that guy instead. And I'm calling him that guy. He had a name. Unfortunately, he had five different names in the newspaper. He's called Martin, he's called Jacob, he's called Jack, he's called Lewis, and his name is spelled everything from rogueright to rubric. I'm going to call him Rubric. He's. He's described as a prominent member of the local German community and he's very popular. And he was not the guy McKinney was aiming for. He's aiming for John Head a lot. But McKin is incredibly rude about killing him because he's shot in the enemy guys and he says, quote, he didn't care a damn as it was a Dutchman anyway. And what's the difference? One Dutchman is the same as another. And I got one of them and that he was gunning for Dutch. So he's not very remorseful kind of jerk. Don't know why he's calling them Dutchman because he's literally German. But whatever. He had a problem with the Dutch. Sorry if anyone hears this Dutch, but Buck McKinney was kind of racist in that regard anyway. So this guy was very popular in town. He was a good guy. People, people loved him. And it's a huge funeral and people are furious. They are finally sick of Buck McKinney and they're going to do something about it. He finally went too far. He killed Rubric and he. People are wandering around with shotguns just in case they see Buck McKinney. It's on site. They're going to go after him. McKinney meanwhile, flees into the woods. But let's go back in time. Sorry, this is like several stories within the story because what I found was that Buck McKinney wasn't just some random guy. His dad was the sheriff. His dad was Sheriff John McKinney who was like a major local figure in politics. He actually was the guy who executed two men, John Jones and Cade's Herring. The only, the first two legal hangings in Bartholomew County. He was the one who did that. One of them was like a drunken horse riding related stabbing. And then the other guy killed his wife's elderly uncle over a fight over a cowbell. So that those were those two hangings. But anyway, so Sheriff McKinney, he, he, he was kind of though a bit of a, kind of a Wild west type himself. He wasn't like the strict law and order type. He actually died after getting bitten by dogs, possibly participating in a dog fighting ring. So he wasn't exactly, you know, maybe it wasn't too surprising that Buck turned out the way he did. Anyways, Buck gets busted. He's taken alive and sent up to Madison for safekeeping because the local community in Columbus is prepared to lynch him. They want him dead. They don't, they don't want him to go to trial. They just want to take care of this. So he's sent up to Madison immediately, escapes along with all the other fridge prisoners in Madison and goes on to commit deprivations. I don't, I don't know what that means. He's running around. They catch him in Greensburg on May 24. So they get him. And finally he is sent to the jail in Columbus. There is an attempt to stir up a lynch mob against him. And once again, Mike Emmett, prominent local lawyer, intervenes, gives a whole speech. Hey, guys, let's just not do this, and let's try to rely on the courts instead. And that works. They leave him be. But more tragedy follows him. Apparently, they never named the guy who gets killed. But apparently a guard on a different night shoots a guy coming into the jail thinking it's the lynch mob again, it was just a friend of the sheriff. So there's more tragedy that follows. There's finally a trial. Judge Bicknell presiding. And he is convicted and he gets life. But the story doesn't end there. He goes to Jeffersonville, to prison on June 5, 1918, not 19, 1857, prior to the Civil War. And he says, quote, I came here on the 5th day of June when the bell was ringing for dinner and have been here in my striped uniform ever since. He seemingly tries to poison himself upon arriving there, but has such low quality poison, it just makes me sick. And then he starts telling people he's not as bad as people are saying. And he kind of goes against that pretty quickly because apparently Buck was like super into sanitary hygiene. He was a bit of a clean freak. And he had a bucket of clean water that he was using, and some guy like put his filthy hands into it and he stabbed that guy to death. But nonetheless, he was made a trustee of the prison. So maybe people agree with him, I don't know. But trustees are the kind of long term prisoners who. They built up that trust with prison officials. And he actually did some good. In 1870, the prison burned down. And he was one of the guys helping people get out, get to safety. In the process that fired, none of the prisoners escaped. They all stuck around. So, I mean, he was kind of somebody that people came to rely on within the prison system and on the outside. He still had allies. Mike Emig, the guy who saved his life many times, was agitating for governor after governor to pardon him, let him out. He's not so bad. He can be rehabilitated. And he gets this reporter, O. Staley from the Louisville Courier Journal to help him. They've all become friends, they're all working for him. And eventually they're getting all these petitions. They're really kind of convincing people. So they even apparently get Rubric's widow to sign this petition saying, I think it's okay. It's been numbered years, and it's okay to let him out. So the final few minutes of Governor Hendricks, his turn, he is. This guy confronts him and says, you got to let old Buck out. He's not so bad. And the guy. And Hendrix is like, I can't do that because I already did. Here's the petition for his release. So it's his final. It's his final act in office. Buck hears the news. He's crying. He's freaking out. He's thanking everybody for supporting him. And he tells the Jackson County Banner, and this is 1877. So he served about, like, 19 years. He says, I will never compromise my friends. If you ever hear Buck McKinney has been drunk, don't you believe it till you are sure of it. So immediately he goes out and compromises his friends and gets drunk, and he starts doing the same stuff he did to Columbus in the first place. He starts going around and threatening people to give him money, and he won't leave until they give him money. But now it's, like, sad because he's, like, really old, and now people can beat him up. So it's all very. It's this. Yeah, it's not a happy ending. Sorry, guys. There's all these stories. He's a drunken nuisance. In 1879, his own sons shoot him. Blue and James McKinney of Columbus, they're arrested on a bench ward. They were protecting their mom because he was either hitting her or he was doing something. They shoot him. It only grazed his scalp, so he was fine. And they're basically brought up on attempted murder. The trial falls apart because he won't really testify against them, and he acts like he can't remember anything, and so does the wife, and she quietly divorces him later, so she kicks him off her farm, and he is kind of just wandering around begging slash, forcing people to give him money. He's shot in the arm by a guy named John Miller. He is beaten up by a guy named Lewis Farrell over a card game in a saloon, and everyone is just sick of this guy. And then the last you hear about him, he's. He's in a poor asylum. Fever, he's gangrene. He's. He's losing it. He's dying. And it's. It's all very sad. And then there's rumors in 1889 that he drowns near Cambridge City. But let's put a pin in that for a second and talk about what happened to his erstwhile rival, John Pettia. That guy becomes mayor of Columbus. He's one of your mayors. He becomes mayor. I mean, it was a short term. It was 1867 to 1869. So obviously he wasn't that successful politically. But he gets in there, and then, you know, he has a saloon, he's doing his thing.
- [45:58]
A
His son murders his wife.
- [46:01]
C
So his son gets married. His son is John F. Topped yacht, murders a woman who he married. She's, like, never named in the newspaper, which is, like, disturbing in and of itself, but she's apparently connected with some, like, local, like, embezzlement crew.
- [46:16]
A
It's a whole mess.
- [46:17]
C
But anyways, so it's just interesting to me that the guy who took down Buck McKinney is also his son, became a murderer. So it's, like, cursed. But also, there's a really weird story in the newspaper that they made a big deal about that I want to. Like, it's in my head, so I need to share it with you. Like, I can't. Like, this haunts me, and I think it haunts you now, too, because I've talked about it enough. So you talk about. They convicted this guy of murdering his wife, the son of the mayor, and he's going to the Columbus train station to go down to Jeffersonville. And people bring his dog, which is a dog named Dude. And it says that the, quote, meeting and parting between dude and his owner caused men to shed tears. So this newspaper won't even name the human woman this guy murdered. And they're, like, weeping, watching dudes say goodbye to this guy. So I just. This haunts me. I can't. I'm sorry. I'm, like, freaking out about it. But anyways, so Dude's heart is broken. The mayor's son is sent away. Here's the thing. People don't tell you about old crimes. No one really, like, murders back then. You were executed or you, like, got out in a shockingly fast amount of time. So I think he got let out eventually. But, you know, people often think, oh, law and order. And it's like, yeah, you were convicted for life back then, and you got out in two years. So, I mean, not. Not really. It's a weird. It's a weird situation. But anyways, so let's go back to McKinney. Turns out he wasn't dead. The desperado of Columbus survived, but he was in an old person's home. He actually went to Dayton, Ohio, and was in the old soldier's home there. And he drove them crazy, so they shipped him off to the one in Marion, Indiana. So he shows up there, and all the newspapers are freaking out. They're like, bucks, bucks alive. And they're all interviewing him. They're obsessed with him. He's a real character. Apparently, everyone hated him at this. This home. And he would say rude things when people would die. And he would also, like, just be really unpleasant. His sons came to visit him. He kind of cursed them out. They're like, you know, not coming back. So he did not make a lot of friends. Although in a 1939 column from Rose Marsh in the Marion Leader Tribune, she tells a really weird story that I think she made up personally. But, like, let's. I'll leave it to you. She talks about how Buck got a new roommate in the old soldier's home in Marion. And Buck had this, like, fancy, like, basically rocking chair. And like, that's his rocking chair. No one sits in it except him, or he will fight you. Even though he's super old and big. Poor health. Anyways, he gets a new roommate and that guy, like, they're making up his bed. So he sits in the rocking chair and he's just chilling there. And Buck comes up to him. It's confronting him like, get out of my rocking chair or I'll kill you. And the guy's like, I'm one of the sheriff's deputies that arrested you all those years ago. You don't scare me. And I'm like, that's not true, right? I mean, like, she just made that up. But also, because also, I looked up the guy and he's, I'm the sheriff. I never found a Nathan Hunt, who was the sheriff. So whatever. But anyways, it's a nice story. And they became good friends after that. So maybe it is true. We can believe in nice things sometimes. But anyways, in 1899, it was the end of the road. And the Marion Leader Tribune had the funniest headline I've ever seen. And that was just old crook dead. He died at the soldier's home. He had been only kept alive by what they describe as alcoholic stimulants. I don't know even know. And they were talking about how he's like, this outlaw, and he kind of is an emblem of, like, the. When Indiana was really more of the Old west. And not a lot of people turned out to his funeral. I'm sure all the people in Columbus who remembered him breathed a sigh of relief because the reign of terror, Buck McKinney, was over. Anyways, that was a long and winding story about Indiana's history. But I hope you enjoyed it. And I think at this point we kind of breezed through our stories, but we wouldn't have questions. Oh, yes, yes. Now we.
- [50:20]
F
So the first question is, tell us about why cereal is a thing.
- [50:25]
C
I'm going to let Kevin answer that. Do you even know?
- [50:31]
E
No, no, I know. So on the show, sometimes we're talking about, like, very serious topics. And at one point there was like some complicated questions about sentencing involving Kagan Klein, who you may or may not know is a pedophile. And it involves how long he possessed different bits of child sexual abuse materials. And that's not really fun to talk about. And so when I tried to explain what the sentencing things were, instead of talking about child sexual abuse materials, why don't I just say it's like boxes of cereal that Anya has stolen?
- [51:11]
C
Why not?
- [51:13]
E
That's a little bit lighter. So I started talking about making jokes about Anya loving cereal and stealing cereal, and it took on a life of its own.
- [51:22]
C
It did. I've never, I've never shoplifted and I've never stolen cereal, and I really enjoy cereal. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a cereal fan. I wouldn't say I'm a cereal fanatic. So I just want to say all that is slander. It's not true. But you do love you defensive right now.
- [51:39]
E
You love trains, though.
- [51:40]
C
I don't love trains. His big thing now is talking about trains with me. And I, I don't. I think you like to say silly things sometimes.
- [51:47]
E
Yeah.
- [51:48]
C
It actually is a really good way of talking about crimes because you can kind of, instead of focusing on the interesting crime, you can talk about the legal concept. You get. The situation sounds so ridiculous. You're kind of like dismissing that and you're just thinking about it from the legal perspective. At least that's how I see it.
- [52:05]
E
That's what I've convinced you.
- [52:06]
C
Yes.
- [52:06]
E
Stockholm syndrome.
- [52:12]
F
Okay, so the next two questions out of you together, we know you have a very interesting meet cute. How you met maybe the nerdiest meet cute ever, dare I say. So tell us about that and tell us about working together as a married couple.
- [52:28]
E
Should I start?
- [52:29]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. That's a really cute question. So thank you.
- [52:32]
E
I was really interested in the Burger Chef burgers, which you may or may not know is for young people, were murdered in Speedway, Indiana, back in 1978. And I started not only researching it, but talking to some of the investigators. And one of the ways I was researching it was like, looking at old newspaper articles. And there's a website where you can do that called newspapers.com. and it lets you. If you see an article you like, you can clip it. And then on your public account, it says, oh, Kevin Greenlee clipped this article. And so on one morning, I happened to be talking with one of the investigators who worked on the case back in 1978, and he said, you know, Kevin, you should be suspicious of anybody who's really interested in this crime because maybe they have a reason to be interested. Maybe they have something to do with it. Why don't you start looking to see who else is clipping a lot of articles? And so I said, sure. And I look, and there's a person in New York City. City who for some reason, is clipping a bunch of articles about. And like, why on earth would a person in New York City be doing that? And it was her.
- [53:51]
C
Yes, I was. As you know from listening to the show, I'm very interested in crime. I was an Orbit person and really wanted to do a crime feature for my then employer and pitched it to them. And for some reason, they were like, sure, I don't know. I wrote about, like, retail and, like, Walmart and commerce and stuff. So I have no idea what they were thinking, but I ran with it. And then I was. I actually remember this. I was, like, doing this event thing for my college, and I was really nervous about that. And that day, or shortly before that, Kevin emailed me. And my. My concern was he was like, oh, I see you're interested in the Burger Chef Motors. Do you want to, like, have information?
- [54:33]
E
I didn't explain how I knew.
- [54:34]
C
No, he didn't explain how I knew. And I was worried. I was like, did I get drunk and, like, file a FOIA request that I don't. I was really concerned. And we. We connected and we had a conversation, and he was really, really nice and kind of just sent me all this information on the case, kind of some of the research he did. So I was like, this is great. And after. After I came out with the article and everything, we sort of just kind of kept in touch and then started talking more and more and more and more were kind of, like, obsessed with each other. And like, okay, like, we're in love. That's fine. And it was funny because, like, I remember telling my friends, here's the thing, he thought I was the murderer, maybe, but I thought he was the murderer at one point because early on in our email exchange, he disappeared. And I was like, wait a Minute, like, what just happened? I remember talking to my friend at our. At our, like, deaths, and I was like, this guy emailed me about this murder. How did he, like, you know, he. He knew I was looking into it, and then suddenly he's not responding, and she's like, I think you were just emailing with the killer. And I was like, so it was a love born of mutual suspicion and a horrible murder. But, you know, it's been. It's been. It's. Honestly, I feel very blessed to have met Kevin. He's wonderful.
- [55:46]
E
What's it like to work together?
- [55:48]
C
What's it like to work together? I think it's something we've had to grow into together. I think we have a kind of relationship and we have the personalities where we can do it, but, like, you definitely have to keep work and life a little bit separate as much as you can. Like, I think the times when we've driven. Driven each other crazy, it's because we're suddenly like, you know, watching a movie and being like, oh, my God, stuff's popping off in Delphi. And it's like, no, we have to, like, kind of. We have to really separate it. But mostly it's really fun because he has such an enthusiasm for things and such a kind of a knowledge about this cases that honestly, it. This podcast born out of our just love of talking about stuff like this together. So I think it's probably easier than it should be. But I think the biggest hurdle for us was we have very different. Different podcast editing styles and, like, almost like, you know, like, like yelled at each other a couple times early on because he'd be like, leave the oven. And I'd be like, absolutely not. Bite to the death now. But we. We kind of were able to figure out a lot of that early. What do you think?
- [56:48]
E
Yeah, Anya is really fun to work with. It's. It's a real pleasure. We basically fell in love working on the Burger Chef case, and now we just get to talk about other cases. And we. We're doing this book on the Delphi murders, which I hope you pre order from Viewpoint. It's a wonderful bookstore, by the way. You're very lucky in Columbus to have. Have a bookstore like Viewpoint. It's a. Yeah, give. Give Viewpoint a round of applause. I. I grew up in Columbus, and Viewpoint was really what helped me develop a love of reading. And without that, I wouldn't be here today, and I wouldn't have met Anya. But all that's a long way of saying when we. It Came time to write the book, we also had to be working on the podcast, and the. The deadline for the book wasn't as long as we thought. So we basically had about a month to write the book while still doing three podcasts a week. And the fact that we could do that and not kill each other is amazing.
- [57:47]
C
And the book. The book is not. I think we were able to, you know, we did some groundwork ahead of time. But, yeah, there was really a crunch point, and I never want to write a book in that time period ever again. But I think we still survived it. And it was, you know, it's an honor to tell that story. It's. It's a real honor. But it's also an honor working with you on this, because I think I. I don't know, it was. It's. It's. It's. As I said before, it's fun to work with. Kevin.
- [58:14]
F
Okay, I'm going to give you three questions, but they're kind of all similar. I'm saving Delphi for last. There are a couple of deli questions. Okay, so let's see. Lisa wants to know about your true crime philosophy, and Anna says, tell us what dismays you about true crime these days? So I think those go together. And then the last question for. For this moment is, what podcast do you listen to? So I think those maybe all go together.
- [58:45]
C
So great questions, guys. And yeah, so for my true crime philosophy, I would say it's usually the boring answer. You know, when people are asking me, like, oh, do you think this is a serial killer? Do you think this is actually a homicide? And it's like, usually my answer can be no. But I think you don't want to necessarily just default to anything in true crime. You want to just look at the evidence and whatever you can get garner on that, and that'll be something that is what's going to guide you to the truth. I think sometimes people jump into things and they kind of have their mind made up and it's. It's hard to get out of something. But I think if I had a general rule, it would be the boring answer is right. So I think I took our main philosophy. Sorry.
- [59:30]
E
I'd also like to say that one thing I think I've learned during this is that things are always more complicated than they seem from the outside. And I've also learned to keep in mind everybody involved. These stories are very human, and you need to respect them and treat their stories with integrity and respect. During the Delphi thing, as you may or may not know. For a long time there was a gag order. So the prosecution, for instance, and the investigators were not able to talk to the press. And so we had no idea what they were thinking. And then that was frustrating at times. But then after the gag order was lifted and we were able to talk with them, it was really interesting to learn. No, there were really good reasons for this. Here's what they are. And I think it's also important to know that the point of a prosecution is not to entertain a true crime audience, is to get a conviction. And so they. Thanks. People go at their own pace and sometimes you just have to be patient.
- [60:38]
C
And I would say I've also kind of come to the sort of view that like prosecutors, defense attorneys, law enforcement officials all do really important work and it's difficult work and you kind of have to analyze it on a case by case basis. And also, you know, just really trying to do whatever you can to be respectful of victims of crimes and their surviving family members, because that's. I think sometimes true crime can re. Traumatize people in very real ways. And that doesn't really get talked about enough. I will say that is what dismayed me the most about true crime these days. I feel like I sound like a very angry old person whenever I talk about true crime. I'm just like, all these, what are they doing? You know, and it's like, I just. I don't. I used to be really optimistic about true crime and just like citizen journalists are going to figure out all the crimes and it's like, no, absolutely not. Like, journalism is really difficult. It's really difficult to do original reporting. We do some original reporting and it's always very time consuming and you know, and love to do it. It's fun, but it's hard. And it's easier for people to just make up something and get mad about it. And that's what we've seen, seen true crime become in a lot of respects and even people who absolutely should know better. And I'm talking about people like attorneys or people with experience in criminal justice, you know, say and do things that are just totally beyond the pale in my. And there's no easy answer because I don't want true crime to become just like one voice. I think there should absolutely be room for controversy. There should be room for debate. There should be room for, like, people disagreeing. Not every podcast is going to be the favorite thing of a victim's family, because otherwise you could not advocate for possible wrongful convictions. There should be room. It should be a big tent, but it should be a respectful tent and not a tent that is overrun by circus clowns, which is how it feels right now. And I think true crime really has to find its heart again and its head. I mean, like, we're, it's, it's, it's lunacy out there. Sometimes. I see this in other high profile cases and I feel sometimes like Cassandra, where I'm just like, screaming about like, hey, the Trojan horse is here and it's all going to burn down. And it's like, I don't, I don't know how much true crime in general has reckoned with that, but anyways, that's a very doomed spin. What do you think?
- [63:08]
E
I was going to say that a great podcast to listen to other than ours is the Prosecutors. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Hosted by two prosecutors, Brett and Alice. They are great at their jobs. They, they approach it with honor and decency and intelligence. That doesn't mean we always agree with them. Right now we're covering a case we've come at to a very different conclusion than they've come to, but we always respect their process and how they do it. And I think that's a show that I can recommend to anybody without hesitation.
- [63:43]
F
What draws you to true crime versus other areas of the law or journalism?
- [63:49]
C
So why true crime?
- [63:50]
F
I guess. And then the other one is, are there any cases that you're aware of that we should be following that maybe don't get a lot of coverage? So why true crime and other cases?
- [64:03]
E
It's a cliche, but I think it's true that if you want to understand how a watch works or a clock works, you don't look at a watch that's working perfectly. You look at a watch that's broken, see where the problem is. And that teaches you something about how the watch functions. And I think the same thing is true about societies. I think true crime at its best shows us where there are issues in our country and our society where those issues exist. And I think it offers a really fascinating lens to look at those problems. I think we can all think of cases in the last 10, 20 years that deal with race or sex issues or gender issues or society inequality issues. I think it's just a great, fascinating lens to look at the world.
- [64:56]
C
Yeah, I think I was always a morbid kid. I don't know what. Originally I was reading the New York tabloids at, like, way too young an age. Like, like being like, you know, Asking my parents about, like, what's this case? And they'd be like, don't read that. What are you doing? And so I think maybe that just kind of immersed me in that. And I was always scared of some of these crimes. Like, I remember being really freaked out as, like, I don't know, like a middle schooler trying to research the Manson murders, because I didn't know what it was. And I was looking it up, and I was like, oh, my God. And I'd to, like, minimize the Wikipedia page, and then I'd bring it back up. So I don't know, I was, like, traumatizing myself. I was an anxious kid. I think it was a way to kind of understand about the darkness in the world so I could feel safer.
- [65:41]
A
In it, which, of course, is an illusion.
- [65:43]
C
But a lot of life was really random. But there's a. There's a kind of a perception of control you can get. And I think a lot of women experience this, too, where it's like, if I can learn about the kind of the Ted Bundies, then maybe I can avoid it. But it's really graduated into more of a way to kind of view kind of stories and humanity. And I do think the best of true crime is. Can be cathartic for survivors to kind of, like, talk about and share their stories, or surviving family members to memorialize their loved ones who've been lost and show that their lives mattered. And for us to talk about, as you said, some of those, like, inequality issues, some of those, like, what's going wrong in this community where this is happening, or what. What can people look out for in terms of their own lives as far as, like, dangers or, you know, if you have a. Like a kind of a spousal murder, what are some of the signs that you may not realize could show an abusive relationship? So it really is just kind of a really fascinating lens, and that's why it makes me sad when I see things going off the rails, because I really think it can add a value. It doesn't have to just be weird, exploitative, and bad. It can be helpful to people. And we've interviewed surviving family members of victims, and afterwards, they were like, this was so helpful for me because I was able to talk about my loved one and just remember that they're human and center them at the focus of the story. And I think that is so important for them.
- [67:09]
B
Other cases.
- [67:10]
C
Other cases. Oh, my gosh. It's such a. Like that. That is such a good question, and it's really sad. So sometimes to see like certain cases just not getting any coverage, I wouldn't say I'm aware of any like ongoing trials right now that you know. But honestly, like I would say for everyone you know, if you go into your local courthouse, whether that's Bartholomew County Courthouse here, or if you've visited firms elsewhere, wherever you're from, and watch a trial, watch a criminal trial, parts of it might seem, seem kind of boring, but I think a lot of us here probably would find it pretty interesting because it's just something we're all interested in and you can learn the ins and outs and you can also learn a bit about what issues are affecting your community. Like is there a problem with drugs, is there a problem with violence, what's going on? And you can really see and pick apart how it all works and then apply that knowledge to a more high profile case that you're following in the media. So I think that's something you can go in, it's public, you can just sit in the gallery, watch respectfully. And it's a great way to get to know what's going on in your community and also how the legal process works.
- [68:21]
E
You did it.
- [68:22]
C
I did it.
- [68:24]
F
Okay, I'm going to come around and pick up any questions that you have, but I'm going to ask the last two questions that I've gotten in. Oh, and before we do that, can we just ask who all isn't from Columbus? We think we have a bunch of guests here tonight and it's really kind of fun.
- [68:44]
C
Welcome.
- [68:45]
F
Welcome to Columbus. We're so glad you're here because we thought, we thought we were either spammed with the early ticket sales or we had some guests from out of town. Katie and Lindy.
- [68:57]
C
Just wanted to know.
- [68:58]
F
So thanks for letting us know. Okay, so Delphi, one question is what was the most surprising thing about the Delphi trial? The next question I have for you is you worked on this case for maybe close to seven years or as long as it was going on, plus the trial. And you were in every day of the trial. What was the hardest part of any of that? So surprising and hardest. And the last one was about writing the book from that perspective of everything that you went through, having your own probably trauma experiencing, going through all of that together. So those were the three Delphi questions that I got.
- [69:41]
C
So as far as what was the.
- [69:44]
E
First one, most surprising at trial.
- [69:47]
C
So most surprising thing at trial. That's a really good question. You answer first.
- [69:54]
E
What most surprised me at the trial was the. This is like the biggest case in Indiana, at least for a while. It's probably going to be the biggest case for these attorneys. So I expected the defense attorneys to really put in a lot of prep time and really blow people away. And I learned subsequently that even people on the prosecution side were saying, well, the defense hasn't done a great job so far, but they must have something and they're just saving it for the trial. And so it was genuinely shocking to me on the first day when the trial officially opened and there's opening statements. The defense attorney's opening statement was just frankly, kind of a rambling mess. It was like a kid getting up to do an oral report on a book that he hasn't read. And I was thinking, even if you didn't have a great argument or whatever, you would think you would have spent more time putting it together. And that really surprised me.
- [70:59]
C
You gave the salty answer. But yes, it was, it was shocking. It was. Yeah. Throughout there was a lot of underwhelming stuff going on that we were just like, I would say that for me, like Linny's family was just constantly going around and like beating everyone and giving them food. And like, we were like all the people out in line, you know, it's like really cold and everyone's kind of losing their minds. And these people who lost their child and had the worst thing possible happen to them, and not only that, but who've been attacked by kind of nutty people on the Internet for years. Instead of like worrying about taking care of themselves, they were taking care of everyone else. I will never forget, like Mike Patty giving Kevin like a bag of peanuts or something. Like Kevin's like a swirl or something. Because this is who they are. This is who Delphi is. They take care of people. And just. We saw that from Libby's family, we saw that from other family members. We saw that from just people in the community. So kind and just real people. And when you see the online chatter about Delphi, you would think it was like this ominous place with like an evil looking castle and like lightning coming out and it's always dark. No, it's just a normal town. Something terrible happened there. It's normal, nice people. And we got to meet a lot of them and that was really nice. I will never forget. We were wandering around looking like zombies from the Walking Dead, presumably wandering around town. And these women came out of a store and just gave us cookies. And it was like, that is so nice. Like it just really welcoming people. So it, I. It surprised Me, the degree to which that happened, because it was like, again, even though I knew people there were nice. It was like they'd been so burned by all the discourse on this case. And the fact that that didn't extinguish the kind of good naturedness of the people there and of the city was. Was like, it's commendable. It's a wonderful place.
- [72:51]
E
The experience of covering the trial.
- [72:53]
C
Experience of covering the trial, like, what was the hardest? Yeah, so I would say that it was the sleep deprivation. Well, no, day to day it was sleep deprivation to the point where I'm pretty sure I had, like, at least at one point, like a visual hallucination, because I was like seeing someone walking this way. And I'd look up in the reception, just seats, there's no space for anyone to walk. And I was like, I'm losing my mind. So fortunately we had people come in and help us, sit in line for us so we could get more sleep and not be totally nuts by the end of the whole thing. That was difficult day to day, and it was just difficult not really having any time to ourselves because we were literally going between trial, recording, go to Wendy's in Monticello and then back to trial, maybe a little bit of sleep and back to trial. So it was just a rough physical experience. Personally, once it came to some of the crime scene stuff, I had a day where I decided to leave because I couldn't deal with it anymore. And I felt really bad about that, but I just, like, I just couldn't handle it. And, you know, it's just. It kind of hit home what this is, which is just a horror show and it's just. It's horrible. I mean, it was just. It was really sad. And I was. I kind of. I thought I could handle it, but I really couldn't that day.
- [74:19]
E
And then the experience of writing the book was very challenging, not only because of the compressed time frame, but you always have to try to figure out, how do we tell this story? Because God knows it's a very, very complicated story. How do you tell it? And then what kind of book do you want it to be? I'm sure I'm not going to name names, but I'm certainly aware of other true crime books. Whereas says, oh, this is a book about the Delphi case. And then you pick it up and it's a reporter saying, boy, was it hard for me to challenge the. To cover the Delphi case. And it's just about them. And we made the decision not to put ourselves in the book any more than we absolutely had to, because we wanted to tell the story of the people who were actually working the case and who actually did the work that resulted in the conviction.
- [75:09]
C
I think I told you, like, if it's a movie, we're like two random people in the background in one scene. Like, that's. I did not want it to be like a memoir focusing on our reporting experience, because I think everyone had, frankly enough of that from our trial podcast coverage. So this is really going to be just the story of what happened. And I'm really excited for everyone to read it, because I think there's going to be stuff that surprises people.
- [75:32]
E
Yeah, I'd really like to see some of these people behind the scenes get more credit for the hard work that they did. We got to talk on TV about it and do podcasts about it, and so we got more attention than they did. And I'd like to use our platform to direct some of that attention their way. There was actually a surreal moment. We did an interview with one of the prosecutors on the case. And afterwards we go out to dinner, and people, like, come over and start saying, oh, Kevin and I, you did such a great job with the case. Thank you. Like, the prosecutor's right there, and he's. He's like, making faces. Don't tell them. Don't tell them. But it was very surreal. And I'd really like to be in situations where it's the prosecutors and the investigators and victims families and people like that get more attention. That's one thing we tried to do with the book.
- [76:24]
C
That was one of the most hauntingly awkward moments of my life. Thanks for all you guys did.
- [76:30]
A
We didn't do anything.
- [76:31]
E
And prosecutors, right? One of the prosecutors.
- [76:33]
C
Yeah. Yeah. But so we got some written questions here, and I love this one. Can Kevin start a new podcast covering anything interesting he finds in the newly released JFK document? Hey, thanks. Bye. And the answer should be yes, but here we go.
- [76:53]
E
I've been going through them. There's like, thousands and thousands and thousands of pages, and there's really is a lot of interest cresting things. Do you want me to do some episodes on it?
- [77:02]
C
Yes. I've been saying this, and now the people say it, too.
- [77:05]
E
I'll do it.
- [77:07]
C
Do it.
- [77:07]
E
I'll do it. Thank you.
- [77:09]
C
He always think he's like, people are going to find this really ignoring. I'm like, I think a lot of people are interested in this.
- [77:14]
E
And, you know, it's always hard to know what people Are interested in and what they're not interested in. And I hate the idea of, like, boring people or talking to them about things they don't care about.
- [77:24]
C
Kevin, I just took these people hostage and talked about a case of 1857. Okay. I think you're safe with JFK. And the other question we got here, this is. This is a good one. Have you ever researched the Hollinsburg murders?
- [77:39]
E
Have not done much work yet on the Hollandsburg murders. I think we would like to. It's always been on my radar for. This was a case where some people were murdered in Hollandsburg, and 1. Four people were murdered.
- [77:56]
C
Four sons were murdered in front of their stepmother. Yeah, it's a whole.
- [78:00]
E
And she got shot, too. And I think she was wearing a wig, and the wig was blown off. And the killers thought, well, we blew her head off it. One of the things that haunts me about that case is that one of the perpetrators was very close with one of the suspects in the burger shop case. They were roommates for a while, and they actually went on a crime spree once. Where they went. It was around Christmas time, and a mailman was, like, going up and down the street delivering Christmas cards. Christmas cards often have money in them. So the Hollandsburg killer and the Burger Chef suspect were just going up and down the street, just stealing people's mail, and they both got into a lot of trouble over that. And so is there a connection to this suspect in the Burger Chef case? Was he trying to top what his friend did in Hollandsburg? I don't know. So I've always been very interested in their relationship and in the crime itself. So it's certainly on our radar. Do you have.
- [79:04]
C
Those are the questions I got.
- [79:06]
E
I mean, do you have anything more to say about how.
- [79:07]
C
Yeah. No. I think with Hollandsburg, I've always been intrigued by this similarity on some level between that and what happened with Burger Chef in terms of the shooting deaths. And it's. It's an intriguing case. I remember we were driving out somewhere. Sometimes we just drive around and do random stuff. I think we were going to, like, a historic sanatorium. And I saw the sign for Hollandsburg, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, that's it. And so that's been absolutely on our list. And, yeah, I think these. These four young men are killed. Their stepmother sees them. It's just a horrible, horrible case. And I've always. And it happened for no reason. It was one of those emotive lists, sort of like they just did it for the thrill of it. So. Oh, another one. Thank you. And. Oh, this is. This is a very practical one from Sadie. This is. Can you give an update on Crime Con? No, we've not heard back yet. We have applied for CrimeCon this year. We did last year. We did not get in as far as a spot on Podcast row, I think they call it. No, they call it Creators row now, inclusive to the YouTubers. And so we have not heard back yet, but we would love to go because we'd love to see some of you there and we'd love to meet people and be very awkward in person. But it's not you, it's us. That's just our personalities and it'll, you know. So I hope they say yes.
- [80:27]
E
But Dick from True Crime Garage has been very kind. He's, like, reaching out to Crime Con, saying they're okay. And Brett Dallas from the Prosecutors Are also have reached out to Crime Bond, and I'm remiss that I did not mention True Crime Garage earlier. We're talking about good podcasts. They're a podcast based out of Ohio. Two brothers talking about True crime. So we've come to feel kind of a kinship with them because most people in the podcast business, they tend to work with a network. And it's very unusual for this to be two people doing it just themselves. And Nick and the Captain do that just themselves. And we respect that. We initially, they did something on Delphi that we had a disagreement over, and we ended up having a great conversation with them. And I consider them both friends.
- [81:21]
C
Yeah, they're awesome people. And it was definitely one of those enemies to friends situations because I sent a pretty mean email over that, and they still were like, just give us a call. And it was one of those things where I think sometimes it's lost today on the Internet, especially where, like, you could have a conversation with someone and get to know their intentions and they can get to know your intentions, and you could probably come to a better place of understanding and maybe even agreement than if you're just immediately like, I hate you and let's fight, you know, which was kind of my instinct. So I always really appreciate them having that conversation with us. And they're. They're wonderful people, but would love to do primecon. We've heard from other people who would be first timers that they've not heard back yet. So I don't know. I imagine it's a super popular event. Imagine they have a lot of people to pick from. So it may not work out. This year. I don't know. I hope it does because again, it would be fun. It'd be really cool. But we will see and we will definitely update you guys if we hear anything.
- [82:19]
F
This has been great. Thank you so much to Kevin.
- [82:30]
B
Thanks of course to Bonnie, Katie and Lindy from Bespoke and Beth from Viewpoint Books. Our next event there is September 15, 2025. Check it out at murdersheetpodcast.com events thanks.
- [82:46]
E
So much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about.
- [83:00]
B
An unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [83:06]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [83:30]
E
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who.
- [83:32]
B
Composed the music for the Murder Sheet.
- [83:35]
E
And who you can find on the web@Kevin Kevin TG.com if you're looking to.
- [83:41]
A
Talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.
- [84:00]
C
Thanks again for listening.