The Delphi Murders: Baldwin's Complaint: Part Two

Summary

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Murder Sheet: The Delphi Murders – Baldwin's Complaint: Part Two

Release Date: December 3, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (A), Kevin Greenlee (B)

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Overview

This episode of Murder Sheet delves into the aftermath of the high-profile Delphi murders trial — specifically analyzing the complaint filed by defense attorney Andrew Baldwin against prosecutor Nicholas McLeland. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee break down the complaint, its context within the larger “Odinism theory” conspiracy, and reveal exclusive behind-the-scenes information about frivolous disciplinary complaints being weaponized as a form of revenge or harassment by supporters of Richard Allen and his defense team. The episode further critiques Baldwin’s complaint with detailed references to documents, depositions, and the overall conduct of the trial and its participants.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background of the Delphi Case

• [03:01] Quick Recap: On February 13, 2017, Richard Allen murdered Liberty German (14) and Abigail Williams (13) in Delphi, Indiana. Prosecuted by Nicholas McLeland, Allen was convicted in November 2024 and received the maximum sentence.
• The defense, led by Baldwin and Rosie, pushed the "Odinism" conspiracy but failed at trial. Allen is now in prison.
• [04:47] Baldwin’s Complaint: Baldwin filed a disciplinary complaint against McLeland in the summer of 2024 regarding alleged withheld evidence. It was swiftly dismissed.

2. Pattern of Frivolous Complaints & Revenge Tactics

• [05:00] The hosts claim this complaint is part of a strategy by Richard Allen "truthers" to retaliate against perceived enemies by filing groundless complaints.
• [05:28] Kevin Greenlee himself is a target of similar tactics, underscoring a broader pattern.

3. Origins and Flaws of the Odinism Theory

• [07:12] The role of Todd Klick, a former assistant police chief, and others (Kevin Murphy, Greg Ferency), as proponents of the Odinism theory are outlined.
• Major points:
  • Klick and the defense had significantly differing accounts—Klick’s theory was considered "bunk" by the hosts.
  • Klick sent a letter to prosecutor McLeland during the defense’s interest in Odinism but, as evidence showed, the defense was already aware due to materials provided by the prosecution.

"[Baldwin] learned about the Odinism angle prior to Klick writing the prosecutor...simply by looking at things that the prosecutor gave him to look at." — Kevin Greenlee [12:19]

4. Credibility Concerns Around Todd Klick

• [13:37] Áine provides a detailed background on Klick’s credibility issues (forgery, falsifying child services reports), calling into question his motivations and emotional investment.
• [16:26] The hosts contrast effective police work (“what does the evidence tell us?”) with Klick’s emotionally driven theorizing.

5. Dissecting Baldwin’s Complaint – Evidence Suppression Allegations

• [10:59] Baldwin’s accusation: McLeland withheld information regarding Odinism.
• The actual documents indicate the defense was, in fact, given all the pertinent evidence, negating the claim of deliberate suppression.

6. Defense Team Personality and Conduct

• [12:52] Hosts suggest Baldwin’s filings read as if “he thinks he’s smarter than everybody else,” likening it to “The Wizard of Oz” expose.
• [24:30] Baldwin’s complaint is mocked for its “fan fiction” style, with hypothetical speeches imagined for investigators, further emphasizing its lack of legal professionalism.

“You almost imagine he has like a Jerry Holman and Kevin Murphy doll at his house and he's… rehearse this…” — Áine Cain [24:30]

7. Ricky Davis Letters & Defense Strategy

• [26:30] The introduction of Ricky Davis (or Richie Davis)—an informant claiming he overheard Ron Logan confess to the murders in prison.
• [28:35] Baldwin interviewed Davis months before trial but never introduced the information until after conviction—in letters that actually implicated Allen, not exonerated him.
• [30:16] Davis claimed Baldwin suggested he lie for Allen, an accusation damaging to Baldwin’s credibility—yet Baldwin still references Davis in his complaint.
• [32:47] The hosts highlight the desperate and contradictory defense strategies, often attempting to combine various wild theories (Odinists, Logan, Klein) with no real coherence.

“Credibility is like virginity. You've either got it or you don't.” — Kevin Greenlee [34:02]

8. The Facebook Photo — ‘Mimicked Crime Scene’

• [39:36] Baldwin’s complaint leans heavily on a Facebook photo posted by Brad Holder (with an airtight alibi), claiming it eerily matches the crime scene.
• Hosts carefully detail the superficial similarities and debunk the idea it is damning evidence—Holder’s photo posted before the murders, depicts something innocuous, and law enforcement dismissed it as irrelevant.

“I am so sick of hearing about this thing. ... These are different.” — Áine Cain [43:58]

9. Lost Interview Recordings – Technical Mishap

• [49:13] Due to technical error in 2017, some early witness interviews (including Holder’s) were taped over, but this was with cleared suspects, making it irrelevant to Allen’s guilt.
• Baldwin’s emphasis on this point and repeated use of all-caps and melodrama is criticized.

10. Legal Tactics and The Safekeeping Order

• [56:37] Discussion of the "safekeeping order" used to move Allen for his safety from a severely overcrowded jail—again, Baldwin’s conspiracy allegations are described as baseless by hosts.

11. Defense Team Performance at Trial

• [59:00] Áine notes the defense, especially Baldwin, utterly failed to live up to its pre-trial hype—calling his trial conduct "abysmal."
• The hosts emphasize that Baldwin’s complaint is more about wounded pride than genuine legal merit.

12. Weaponizing Professional Complaints — Host’s Own Experience

• [59:43] The hosts recount experiencing frivolous complaints themselves, including attempts from a defense appellate attorney and a YouTuber, both aiming to intimidate, silence and chill journalistic investigation.
• These complaints, like Baldwin's, were summarily dismissed.

“I think these are people who are using instruments of law to silence those they disagree with.” — Áine Cain [68:22]

13. What Has Baldwin Accomplished?

• [69:37] Rather than discrediting McLeland, Baldwin’s complaint resulted in the Indiana Disciplinary Commission giving McLeland a clean bill of health.

14. Final Reflections and Direct Critique

• [70:45-72:42] In a pointed monologue, Kevin turns Baldwin's sentiment (“I have lost faith in the system”) back on him, arguing that Baldwin’s conduct was actually what made many lose faith, and that ultimately, the system worked to secure justice for the girls.
• The episode closes by observing that most of the defense’s online supporters have moved on, and reaffirms their pride in the integrity of the Indiana legal process.

“You, sir, are why they lost faith. You and your colleagues made a travesty of this process and you continue to do so with nonsense like this complaint against Mr. McCleland.” — Kevin Greenlee [71:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Baldwin’s Complaint:
  "It makes no sense. That's what, really, really Machiavellian of Nick to be handing them what they need on a silver platter to learn about this stupid theory." — Áine Cain [12:34]

• On Defense Theorizing:
  “These are situations involving families and children who may be in danger...when you’re...falsifying reports...that’s pretty serious.” — Áine Cain (on Klick) [13:37]

• On Defense Tactics:
  “…this is all after the case is over...and he’s whining about McClelland not paying him the attention he feels he deserves. He’s writing out things where he's having McClelland apologize to him and soothe his ego.” — Áine Cain [38:01]

• Mocking Legal ‘Fan Fiction’:
  “Baldwin has this habit…of writing weird fan fiction about what he thinks people should say... It’s the cringiest thing I’ve ever, like, don’t—like, why is he doing this?” — Áine Cain [25:17]

• On Weaponized Complaints:
  “These people are largely driven by the idea that they are morally superior to others...So they’re completely entitled to do whatever they can to harm people like us and people like McClelland.” — Áine Cain [68:22]

• On System Working:
  “At the end of the day, they have made me deeply proud to be an Indiana lawyer. So at the end of the day, you made the process an extraordinarily ugly one, but the system worked just as it should.” — Kevin Greenlee [72:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:01 – Delphi case background, Richard Allen conviction
• 04:47 – Details of Baldwin’s complaint against McLeland
• 07:12 – Introducing Todd Klick and origins of Odinism theory
• 13:37 – Klick’s credibility crisis explained
• 24:30 – Mocking of complaint’s “fan fiction” narrative
• 28:35 – Ricky Davis letters and accusations against Baldwin
• 39:36 – Explaining the infamous Brad Holder “mimicked crime scene” photo
• 49:13 – Tape over error and exaggerated claims of lost evidence
• 56:37 – Safekeeping order controversy addressed
• 59:43 – Host recollections of harassment & complaints against them
• 69:37 – Impact (or lack thereof) of Baldwin’s complaint, commission’s decision
• 70:45 – Final direct critique of Baldwin, moral of the case

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode uses sharp, sometimes sarcastic candor, with the hosts deploying wit and sometimes pointed personal critique. Factual and legal discussion is occasionally enlivened by humor (e.g., references to legal “fan fiction,” comic book style writing, and poking fun at conspiracy cranks) but always anchored in a firm rejection of the conspiracy-laden narrative advanced by the defense. The hosts maintain a clear-eyed and often moralistic stance, prioritizing evidence, credible legal analysis, and the importance of professional conduct both in court and in public discourse.

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Conclusion

This episode of Murder Sheet offers a scathing, deeply detailed dissection of Andrew Baldwin’s disciplinary complaint against prosecutor Nicholas McLeland. Through careful review of the evidence, legal documents, and the absurdities within the complaint, Áine and Kevin make a sweeping case for the legitimacy of the trial’s outcome and the systemic failures (personal and professional) of Allen’s defense team. The show ends with a reaffirmation of their faith in the system, even after enduring attempts at professional intimidation themselves.

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Transcript

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[B]

I'm Kevin and in this episode we will continue our discussion of the meritless complaint that defense attorney Andrew Baldwin filed against Nicholas McClelland in connection with the Delphi case. We'll also discuss some of the complaints that have been filed against me so.

[A]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls along with suicide. So today, as Kevin mentioned, this is part two of our conversation about essentially these frivolous complaints. Just a quick kind of nutshell recap of the kind of grounding some of this for anyone who's a little bit new. On February 13, 2017, a man named Richard Allen murdered two girls, 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams in Delphi in Indiana Carroll county. Specifically. Allen was arrested in 2022 and he was prosecuted by Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland. Allen's defense team consisted of lead counsel Brad Rosie, Jennifer O.J. and Andrew Baldwin, complainant in this situation, that team basically put out a bunch of conspiracy theories and fell on their faces. It was very clear at trial to, I think, people who had any sort of intellectual honesty about the matter that Richard Allen was very clearly guilty, that Nicholas McLellan did a very good job in prosecuting him along with James Luttrell and Stacy Der, and that the defense team did not do a very good job. So on November 11, 2024, to the surprise of some people, and certainly not of us, Alan was convicted by a jury of his peers. He got the maximum sentence and he is now in prison. So what we're reporting on now and what we're exclusively reporting on is that Baldwin filed a ridiculous complaint against McLeland this past summer with Indiana's Disciplinary Commission, a body tasked with disciplinary complaints against lawyer and it was immediately dismissed or it was very swiftly dismissed. They didn't. There was no part two to it. Essentially what they did was they looked at it and they dismissed it without even requiring a response from McCleland.

[B]

So yeah, I'm sure they gave it all the consideration it deserved. Yeah, which was so not quite immediate.

[A]

I'm sure, which was an eye roll, frankly. But the thing is, what we want to report too is that this is not an isolated incident. Kevin had groundless complaints on him. Filed two. Two around the Delphi case. And. And what we think is that this is a part of a larger strategy or tactic by Richard Allen truthers to attempt to punish their perceived enemies using frivolous complaints. It underscores the fact that even though Allen lost in court and his fans, I guess, lost by proxy, these people are still attempting to extract some kind of revenge long after the verdict came down.

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[A]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[B]

And this is the Delphi murders. Baldwin's Complaint, part two.

[A]

Sam.

[B]

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[A]

And to be clear, everyone, we're not sponsored by Mr. Pibb. He's just doing this. This is what he does all day.

[B]

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[A]

That sounds so wrong.

[B]

Okay, so I hate to do this, but we're going back to this document, and we're going to start with Todd Klick. Some of you may be fortunate enough to say. Who's Todd Klick? So Todd Klick was the former assistant police chief in Rushville. He, along with Greg Ferency and Kevin Murphy. Kevin Murphy from the United States Police. Greg Ferncy, I believe, was a Terre.

[A]

Haw police officer, but Murphy and Ferency were on the same FBI counterterrorism task force.

[B]

And the defense, Baldwin, Rosie, And, I guess, O.J. credit those three men as the three investigators. They basically fathered the Odinism theory. They really worked hard on it and developed it. With that said, it is worth remembering that the defense's theory differed dramatically from Kliick's. They both thought the same people were responsible, but they really disagreed on the details.

The defense said that the murder was part of a ritual, and Klik always strongly disputed that. And it is not clear to me, Anya, what evidence, if any, the defense developed to disprove that part of the three investigators grand theory.

[A]

Well, I have to. I have to. I. I hate to do it, folks, but I have to hand it to the defense. In this situation, Klik's theory was that Abby and Libby went to these people's weird ritual and made fun of it and then were forced to strip naked and then were murdered to keep them quiet from covering up. And it's like, does that sound like the behavior of 14 and 13 year old girls surrounded by strange men doing a ritual in the woods? Because I think that sounds like bunk. That sounds like something that a guy made up. But that's just me. I think the defense wanted to get around that aspect of it would be my guess. And a ritual where they're just kind of innocent victims lured into it sounds better than, oh, they were like roasting these Odinists for their sacrifice thing and then they were murdered because they wouldn't shut up. I think that that would be perceived poorly by the public.

[B]

So in the spring, I believe, of 2023, Todd Klick, he writes a letter to prosecutor Nick McCleland.

And this is after Richard Allen's been arrested. And Klik says, hey, I think Richard Allen might be the wrong guy. Actually, I think the real killers were this group of Odinists. And Baldwin, over the course of his representation, made all sorts of great claims about this. McCleland allegedly withheld evidence of this angle, blah, blah, blah. So McCleland, in his interpretation, doesn't want them to have the information about the illness. You got that?

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And Baldwin says that McClelland didn't even, quote, know for sure that the defense was onto the Odinism angle, end quote, until the depositions that were given in August of 2023. And I reckon that McClelland's master plan up to that point was to hide the absurd Odinism theory from that defense. From the defense. And that that possibility was totally blown up by brave Todd Klik writing them that dramatic letter. But as it turns out, there's more to the story. At about the same time Mr. Klik was writing his famous missive to the prosecutor, the defense. Anya, the defense was already hot on the Odinism trail.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No one could keep those super sleuths down.

[B]

Let's go to the complaint. This is Andrew Baldwin, and this is from his complaint to the disciplinary commission about Nicholas McClellan. Quote, the defense learned about these third party suspects by combing through tens or even hundreds of thousands of pages of documents the prosecutor's office haphazardly sent to the defense. One of the pieces of evidence the defense located was a 12 page report authored by State Trooper Kevin Murphy, who, along with Todd Klick and Officer Greg ferency, investigated the third party suspects find attached to this 12 page report marked as Exhibit L. This 12 page report had several bombshells about the third party suspects that connected their possible involvement to the murders. Murphy's 12 page report also mentioned several interviews of various witnesses and other evidence that supported the law enforcement's beliefs. The certain third party suspects had committed the murders. This is how we knew that the interviews even existed. End quote. So by Baldwin's own admission, Anya, he learned about the Odinism angle prior to Klik writing the prosecutor. And he learned about it simply by looking at things that the prosecutor gave him to look at.

So if McCleland was trying to devilishly hide that theory from him, then why on earth would he have given them the 12 page report that spelled it all out?

[A]

I don't even know.

[B]

It makes no sense.

[A]

That's what really, really Machiavellian of Nick to be handing them what they need on the silver platter to learn about this stupid theory. And.

You can't make this up. They're. They're, they're talking out of both sides of their mouths and.

Thinking that no one notices. Yeah, I think they, I think again, I think Baldwin, these, his writings and a lot of his legal filings. Right. Read to me as if he thinks he's smarter than everybody else. But it's like it's truly that scene in the wizard of Oz, you know, Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. We can all see you, dude. You're right there.

[B]

Dude, indeed.

[A]

Dude, indeed. This, I mean, this is just embarrassing. I mean, I don't know, I get you would not expect this from someone trying to hold themselves out. As a legal professional, in my opinion, it all, it all looks very bad.

[B]

I think there's some remarks you wanted to make.

We're now transitioning to an Anya section of the notes.

[A]

So let's talk about Todd Glick. You mentioned him. Former assistant police chief in Rushville, Indiana, in Rush county, which I want to add is very far away from Delphi. It's to the south of Indianapolis. It's not close by, and Delphi is in the north of Indianapolis. These are, these are not close by communities. This is a guy who has pretty serious credibility issues at this point. Todd Klick was charged with things like forgery and things like falsifying robbery reports around child services investigations. I don't think I can, I don't think I can underscore enough how serious that is. These are situations involving families and children who may be in danger, maybe in physical danger, psychological danger. Who knows what these specific families were going through. But when you're doing a situation and you're not doing your job and you're falsifying reports, and that's the allegation here, that's pretty serious. Now, he innocent until proven guilty, but it's, it's a serious situation that he's facing. And I think credibility issues are, are a nice way to put it right now. So that's one thing. Second of all, in the reporting and investigation we did for our book Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders, and the Dark side of the American Heartland, we got into the Click saga quite a lot. And what I have concluded on interviewing numerous people and being aware of Click's actions in this. This is a man who felt extremely rejected by investigators. Investigators who were, okay, let's talk about Click. There's two elements to click. One, he was very upset that investigators at the center of this case did not take him or his theory of the case more seriously. That was personally upsetting to him. I think he felt emotionally rejected by that. Again, forget the fact that he didn't have probable cause. Forget the fact that he never uncovered anything truly, that they could do anything with, the fact that they didn't just basically drop everything and say, no, no, we don't need evidence. Let's just do what Todd says. I think really hurt his feelings. And two, he was not someone who frankly had a good grasp of the case as a whole. I don't think he really.

Understood it. I don't think he really had the scope. And instead of having the humility to say, well, listen, I feel very strongly about this, but there's things I may not know about and, you know, that I'm not privy to. Like most people, I think would he went the other route of I think, being like, well, it must be about me, and so let me, like, send a letter to get some attention. I mean, I, I, I hate to say it, but I really think there was an emotional aspect to this that some people, I think people like Todd Klik are the reason why we have wrongful convictions, personally, because I think when you get blinders on and you become emotionally invested in one person doing it.

Or, or a group of people in this case doing it, then you can make some pretty severe errors of judgment. And that's what I think he did. And I also think that when it comes to the Delphi investigators, who are actually key to this team that solved the case, I think the one thing that I look at is, like, they worked they put in a lot of effort on people who they never charged. People like Kagan Klein were investigated. People like Ron Logan were investigated. And they looked at that hard. And then they didn't have enough evidence, so they didn't do anything with it. I could imagine that maybe some of them along the way were like, I kind of feel in my gut this might be it. But they didn't go with their gut. They went with what the evidence said. That's what you're supposed to do. You know, nobody expected Richard Allen. At the end of the day, nobody knew that that tip was hiding in the files. So, you know, I don't. There was no emotional investment there. It was just ultimately, what. What does the evidence tell us? So that's something to note. I don't know about you, Kevin, but I'm always getting those irritating spam calls.

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[A]

Yeah, do you want, should we, should we talk about the. This, this in 30 years of defending clients thing?

[B]

It's, it's. You're in the driver's seat, we're in the Anya portion of the.

[A]

Okay, let's, let's, let's go into this quickly. So this is something Baldwin writes in his complaint against McLelland. Quote, In 30 plus years of defending clients, I can't recall a law enforcement officer feeling the need to hire his own lawyer out of fear or concern that the prosecutor did not know the whole story may have arrested an innocent man, or at a minimum, that the prosecutor ignored other suspects. In other words, exculpatory evidence. Klik was even concerned that the prosecutor did not have possession of important evidence and also that the prosecutor had not turned over that evidence to the defense. Clink Click's hunch was correct. McLeland had failed to turn that evidence over to the defense, end quote. So it was obviously. No, he didn't because he knew about it. But second of all, I think this speaks more to Todd Klick being someone who probably shouldn't, you know, have gotten himself so emotionally invested in this versus any sort of actual wrongdoing on McClelland's part. It says more about Click than McClelland. I'll just say that.

So now I think we get to a part where.

We have.

Baldwin bring up this. I, I think he has, he said stuff about this. I think he said stuff about this in some files.

[B]

I, I know I've heard it before.

[A]

So this, I'll, I'll just read this quote. Unbe. Oh, so, okay, so this is what happens. So he, they, the defense deposes Lt. Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police. And they're also that day of deposing Kevin Murphy, also of the Indiana State Police. And as we mentioned, Murphy did this 12 page report on his Odinism theory. So this is what Baldwin says happened that day, quote, after Lieutenant Holman's deposition. He, Holman walked into the hallway, saw Murphy in the hallway and then confronted Murphy asking him how the f did they get this, referring to the 12 page report, end quote. So he, he's, he makes a big deal about this, almost insinuating that.

Holman must be mad that Murphy blew the whistle or something like this. Right? Like he's confronting the whistleblower. Now. We interviewed Sherry Holman back a number of months. Well, actually like I guess almost a year ago at this point between the period when the gag order lifted and another gag order came down from the Indiana State Police, we got him in that window. And this was something we talked about as far as putting the book together. I don't think it made it into the book, but basically when we look at this incident, there was no like angry confrontation. The defense was presenting this 12 page report and calling it a report, but it wasn't a report. Reports in, in policing, especially with the Indiana State Police, there's a specific type of filing, again, formatting and there's a report, like there's a specific report you need to fill out. My understanding from our previous interview with Holman was, was that this was basically like a bunch of stuff on a word document, maybe more akin to like field notes versus an actual report. And so because field notes are not typically turned over, because they're not, you know, the report is what you turn over as part of Discovery. So I think he was more confused about, wait, what is this? You know, and like, what, what is that? How, if, if it's field notes, how did they get that? Or what, what does that mean? Or, you know, it wasn't an angry thing. It was more of like, I'm confused about what's going on here because they're saying it's a report. It's not. So it's, it's pretty innocuous. But my favorite thing in the world in this report. In this, in this complaint at least.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now I'm saying everything's a report. It's contagious. Baldwin has this habit in throughout this complaint. I think there's a couple more instances of writing weird fan fiction about what he thinks people should see. Say, like, you almost imagine he has like a Jerry Holman and Kevin Murphy doll at his house and he's like making them talk to each other to like kind of rehearse this. This is what he, this is what he said. Quote, why wasn't Holman's comments to Murphy something like, Murph, I appreciate your hard work. I read that 12 page report during my deposition just now and it is mind blowing. I'm concerned that we did not investigate that angle you guys were covering. Thank you for perhaps finding out that we have arrested the wrong guy. I am going to vigilantly look into this. End quote.

[B]

So, yeah, I'm curious. Baldwin doesn't seem to know how people talk. That, that's, that's not good dialogue.

[A]

That's not Jerry Holman dialogue.

[B]

That's not anybody dialogue. I've never heard anyone talk.

[A]

I appreciate your heart. I'm going to say that to you next time you wash the dishes. I'm just going to recite this.

[B]

And, and I'm, I'm also curious.

[A]

Cringe, cringe.

[B]

I'm curious. We have no way of knowing this. Maybe someone out there will know. Is Kevin Murphy really known by the nickname Murph? I think Baldwin didn't just make, I.

[A]

Don'T think he, I hope he didn't. I think that's meant to like add, add a little bit of, a little bit of realism. Sprinkle in, you know, some of that nickname stuff. I, I, it just, it's, it's like, it's the cringiest thing I've ever, like, I, like, don't like, why is he doing this? Like, why even put this in there? Why let anybody have a glimpse into your mind to this extent if you're that like warped by this whole Situation, you know, it just, it just says something.

[B]

You're one to talk. This whole podcast, this whole. Every episode on Deli is a glimpse.

[A]

Into, well, you know, I'm not filing frivolous complaints on attorneys who beat me in court, you know, so it definitely that.

[B]

I'll give that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And now Baldwin moves on to Ricky Davis.

[A]

So you. You yelled about that earlier. Why. Why is it we can get into this, but I think we need to explain why this is such gall to bring up Ricky Davis in any context.

[B]

I will get to that. But first of all, I want to say some people pronounce his name Ricky Davis. Some people say Richie Davis. I'm gonna go with Ricky. I think in a fair and just world, we never would have heard his name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No matter how it's pronounced.

[A]

No.

I regret even having to bring up his name now.

[B]

Yeah, it's really shocking gall on the part of Mr. Baldwin to bring up Ricky Davis. Do people remember Ricky Davis? This is the guy. This is the guy who said, you know what, folks? When I was in prison, I heard Ron Logan confess to these murders. And by the way, those confessions had some extremely inaccurate details. Well, he may not have said that part, but he did supply inaccurate details, which really threw the credibility of his claims into stark relief. But needless to say, that information, oh, there's a guy in prison, Mr. Baldwin, who says he heard confessions from Ron Logan. That information was passed on to Andrew Baldwin. And Andrew Baldwin actually had an interview with Ricky Davis in March of 2024. Now, Anya, I don't have a calendar in front of me, but is March 2024 before or after the trial? Which of course started in October of 2024.

[A]

I think it's over half a year before the trial.

[B]

Okay, so he had the story and he talked to the man and. And he didn't think it was worth mentioning either at the trial or at the three day hearing in which they discussed whether or not Ron Logan could be guilty.

[A]

Yeah. Or, you know, or Kagan Klein.

[B]

So he had that information and did nothing with it.

[A]

Yeah, they didn't come up at the three day hearing. There wasn't some attempt to bring it into trial at any point. It was nothing.

[B]

So the Davis stuff came to the public's attention because after the trial, after Richard Allen has been convicted, after Richard Allen has gotten the maximum possible sentences, Baldwin announced in a filing that Davis had sent as many as eight letters to McCleland about Logan's confessions. And guess what, folks? In those letters, he was said to reveal that Logan had said that Kagan, Klein and a third man were also involved in the killings.

[A]

Third man by Carol Reed.

[B]

And those eight letters, ladies and gentlemen, had not been turned over to Andrew Baldwin. But there were problems, as there are always problems, with claims made by this defense team. Records showed that Davis actually had only sent McCleland three letters. And in those letters, Davis revealed who the third man involved in the murders was.

[A]

Cue the zither music.

[B]

That third man, ladies and gentlemen, was none other than Richard Allen, Andrew Baldwin's own clients. So since those letters implicated Alan and did not exonerate him, and since McLean did not intend to use them at trial, there's no obligation for him to share them with Baldwin. But it gets worse for Mr. Baldwin, ladies and gentlemen. It gets much worse for Andrew Baldwin because in those letters.

Davis also said that he, after he met with Baldwin, he felt the lawyer was suggesting that Davis lie in order to help Richard Allen. So that is incredibly humiliating for our defense attorney friend, but that is the background. And so that's why I personally found it a bit surprising that Baldwin brought it up again.

[A]

But not only did this guy accuse his client of the murder, but he also accused him of basically trying to suborn perjury.

[B]

Yeah, so that's not really something I'd be trumpeting.

[A]

No, that's not something I would ever bring up again in conversation. And I'd probably act like it didn't happen if I were him because, like, yikes. Like, he's not like, I just. Why? But of course, this is Andrew Baldwin we're talking about. There's nothing he can't try to twist into a. There's no. There's no humiliating, crushing defeat that he can't try to twist and spin into some triumph, some Roman triumph where he's marching through the city. So he, of course, is going to bring up again in this.

[B]

In this context he mentioned in these letters, supposedly it was Logan and Klein, along with Allen, who committed the murders. I think you had something to say.

[A]

Yeah, this is. I love this. This is in a footnote, of course. This footnotes. It's Andrew Baldwin, quote, the Odinist theory is not necessarily mutually exclusive from the theory that both Klein and Logan were also involved in the murders. Either way, the defense had an absolute right to know about any confessions from two prime suspects, end quote. So this is hilarious to me because they've been building up this Odinist theory, then this situation has nothing to do with Odinism. But like, okay, let's use it anyway. We, from the beginning Always thought that Klein and Logan were more realistic suspects for a defense attorney to kind of pounce upon. As far as third party. And at the third party hearings, when the defense had the opportunity to bring in, you know, all or any of the third party they wanted, they barely focused on Klein or Logan. They did a little bit on Klein, not, not, not much compared to all the Odinist stuff, and then barely anything on Logan. So it really just amuses me that at this point they're trying to do some sort of like, crossover of Delphi event where they're bringing in all these different people with no links to each other. And it's like you had the opportunity to try to bring some of this in before, didn't really take it as far as I was concerned, and then are complaining now. It just, it's just, it's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous at this point.

[B]

And yeah, I also found it rather interesting that at one point in this complaint, Baldwin is doing everything he can to bolster the credibility of this man, Ricky Davis. And he says, oh, Ricky Davis said he sent eight letters, but there's only records of like three envelopes going to McCleland. And one of those envelopes is apparently the letter and it was missing. Isn't it possible, isn't it possible, ladies and gentlemen, that Ricky Davis did indeed write eight letters, but he just put them in three envelopes? And it's like, what? This is bizarre. They are grasping at straws in order to do anything they can to bolster Davis's credibility. But I submit to you that there is a problem with that because Anya says this is a bit crass, but I'm going to say it anyway. Credibility is like virginity. You've either got it or you don't. And if Davis is so incredibly credible that we must even believe he put eight letters in three envelopes, then he must also be credible when he says that Baldwin tried to get him to commit perjury. Now, for the record, I believe that Ricky Davis is a liar. I believe he has no credibility. I believe he lied about the supposed confessions. And, and I believe that Ricky Davis lied when he said Andrew Baldwin suggested that he commit perjury. But let's go back to these other supposed letters that Ricky Davis wrote as well as the missing letter. The claim from Baldwin is that Nicholas McClelland held on to those letters, Anya, because they contain information that would really bolster or prove Allen's innocence. I'm going to read from Baldwin's complaint. Quote, I know that this sounds conspiracy Minded. But unfortunately, because of the history of dealing with McCleland and the way he has handled exculpatory evidence, and because I have a client that I believe is factually innocent, I feel I am justified in my concern. End quote.

[A]

Love that flash of self awareness there at the beginning. I know this sounds conspiracy minded. That's the end of the sentence right there.

[B]

I also find it interesting that he says, I have a client. Does he still represent Richard Allen? I thought his representation ended at the end of the trial. And my understanding is that Mr. Allen was currently being represented by appellate attorneys because Baldwin lost.

[A]

There was that whole incident.

[B]

But with all that said, Anya, let's be children and let's play pretend. Let's pretend that there really is a missing letter or letters that contain bombshell information from Ricky Davis that establishes beyond all doubt that Richard Allen is as innocent as a babe. How, oh, how can we prove it? Well, we can ask Mr. Davis. He's alive. He's given interviews to at least one YouTuber. He's spoken to Andrew Baldwin. Why can't he just now supply this supposed information that is a bombshell information that he allegedly wrote in these earlier letters? If he had that information and wrote it down, why can't he write it down again or say it again? And the answer is, because there is no bombshell information. There is nothing to the Ricky Davis angle. It has been a tremendous waste of everyone's time.

[A]

Can I. Can I do the fan fiction here again? Yeah, this is. I didn't write that. This is. Baldwin wrote this. Baldwin sat down at his computer, presumably, and wrote this out and said, ah, yes, and then sent it. This is. This is. This is the level we're operating at right now. Quote, notice also that McLelan never has stated something like, I'm sorry, Mr. Baldwin, when looking through the evidence. There was an oversight on our part. We found the Ricky Davis letters that were sent to us before trial, and we should have sent those letters to you. I'm sorry about that oversight. End quote. This is what he wants McClellan to say to him. This is all some bizarre, like, ego exercise of him trying to heal the wound to his pride that McClelan caused him by completely showing him up in court. That's all this is. So he has to, instead of, like, talking about facts, he has to do things like write things that, like, write a letter from McLeland to him apologizing and saying he's the best lawyer in the world and you're better man than I am, Andy. And all this, it just, it's embarrassing. I feel like we're not. I feel like. I feel. It feels weirdly personal to even see some of this stuff.

I don't know. It's really, it's. It's ridiculous. But what's next?

[B]

Baldwin complains that he thinks Ricky Davis was interviewed it on video and he's never been given that video. And McLeland says such video doesn't exist.

[A]

Okay. I mean, I don't think police probably spent that much time looking at any of this. You know, like with Davis claiming all the things and getting key details wrong. That's not something they really need to focus a lot on. One thing that I thought was really interesting about this section is there's a lot of complaints from McLeland about how like complaints about McLeland where Baldwin saying like we called him out and he's not responding. Mind you, what we're talking about now, this is all after the case is over. This is after the conviction. Richard Allen is incarcerated. Like this is the case is over. Baldwin should be moving on. And this is in the hands of the appellate team now. And he's whining about McClelland not paying attention to him and not giving him the attention he feels he deserves and the courtesy and respect he feels he deserves. And he's calling him out, but he's not responding. It's like McClelland has a job. He's the Carroll county prosecutor. He's got more important things to do than rehashing this nonsense with someone who clearly has way too much time on his hands and refuses to let go of a case that he frankly badly botched. Why would he want to be spending time emailing back and forth with this joker? I mean, it's. It's like he has no self awareness, this guy. Like, it's. Why would he respond? He's. But he's so offended. He's clearly so friggin offended by this. He's like writing out things where he's having McClelland apologize to him and soothe his ego. It's bizarre.

[B]

It's bizarre. I think I'm ready to move on from Ricky Davis. Do you want to talk about the mimicked. The alleged. The so called mimicked crime scene photo which Mr. Baldwin does indeed bring up in this complaint is of course, you knew he would.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't he? So the so called mimicked crime scene photo, this is what he says about that. And, and as a reminder, this is just for the people who are coming into this on One of the focus, one of the culprits, according to the defense of the evil Odinist cult who murdered Libby Nabi, was Brad Holder. Brad Holder is a man with a solid, rock solid alibi.

[B]

Rock solid.

[A]

He was at work and then he checked into the gym that day. And neither of those things happened in Delphi, by the way. So that's. So. But, you know, he had a weird Facebook presence and he posted a picture of like a tree and two people. And it was, it was a weird looking picture. But, you know, basically the defense. And this was all before the murders when he posted it.

[B]

And it was a joke, was.

[A]

It was, it was a joke. It was like a picture of two people under a tree. And it says like when a tree falls or something like that. So, like if a tree falls in.

[B]

The woods and like nobody's there to hear it doesn't make a sound, I.

[A]

Guess, like a dumb joke. But. But they, they basically made this into their whole case of it proves that he's the murderer even though he has an alibi. So this is how the defense, again, that photo he posted before the murders ever happened.

[B]

Right?

[A]

This is what the defense posted, or this is what rather Baldwin describes it in the complaint. Quote, as detailed earlier, the crime scene in this case involved two girls found on the ground in the woods with sticks, slash branches laid across their bodies in a certain pattern. Also, both bodies were staged, posed in a certain way. And then he continues, quote, this is not defense conjecture, as FBI agents also believe that the bodies were posed, staged, end quote. So I want to note one thing. The defense could have brought some of this out at the three day hearing. They chose not to. They chose not to bring any of the FBI agents they, you know, are bringing into this. What we did hear from was again, Major Pat cicero of the LaPorte County Sheriff's Office, a crime scene analyst who talked about how Libby was moved slightly post mortem. She was dragged a short way, seemingly to make her less visible from the other side of Deer Creek, deeper into the shallow indentation the girls were in. As far as Abby is concerned, Abby's blood was unfortunately, you know, soaked into the sweatshirt she was wearing. She really showed no signs of significant movement post mortem. So what are they talking about in terms of, you know, staging and posing beyond what seems to be more of a practical thing.

They also talk about how, you know, Brad Holder's son being Abby's boyfriend. I, I just want to note one thing about that. You know, people in middle school, there's no Indication that these two kids met more than a few times. So people in middle school, the definition of like, oh, we're boyfriend and girlfriend can be very different than what that means in even high school or later on. So, like, the idea that they were very closer that she was spending a lot of time, it just. It's not true. Not true, and it's misleading. So this is what Baldwin says about. In this complaint about the. The Holder picture, quote, on his Facebook. An image that depicted two girls whose bodies were staged slash posed on the ground in the woods with branches across their bodies. One of the girls in this image was particularly posed in an eerily similar manner as one of the victims in the Delphi murders. End quote. I am so sick of hearing about this thing. And I'm going to go through because, like, I feel like there's a certain extent, like, where people like Baldwin, they're so loud and they're constantly saying, like, yes, it's. It's an identical picture. And. And like, they're throwing so much. No, they're. They're throwing so much nonsense at you that you sometimes almost can't double down on, like, what they're actually talking about. So let's actually look at this image for a moment. And I will tell you, as somebody who has unfortunately had the misfortune of seeing actual crime scene photos at trial and during the leak, I will tell you that these are different. So these are the general similarities that I can tell. There are two individuals in the. In the Facebook picture. On Brad Holder's Facebook, they both appear to be Caucasian. One is definitely female. I can't tell what the other figure, one is lying supine, so face up, and they both have some portion of their bodies covered with either a small tree or a very large branch. Those are the similarities. Let's talk about some pretty freaking key differences. Let's do.

In the. In the image on Brad Holder's Facebook, both of the. First of all, it's not clear to me that both are female. But second of all, both are clothed at least partially. The girl in front is wearing a dress. And then the figure in the back, where I can't tell, male or female, appears to be wearing, like, jeans.

Their positions relative to one another are very different from the positions between Abby and Libby. One. One has, like, their, you know, like, it's like they're almost like one is, like, further down in the picture and their feet are near the other one's head. That's not how it was at the crime scene.

In this case. The one of the figures, the one in the kind of. The one that's harder to see, appears to be prone or at least partially prone. So face down. That was not the case at the crime scene. In this situation, there's like this big, as I said, either a small tree or a large branch. It seems to be one piece, not multiple sticks crisscrossing or whatever. It's like one big thing, whether it's a branch or a tree, and it covers them both in a different way, but it appears to be like one whole tree or one whole large branch. It's not like a bunch of little pieces of dead fall, which is what the case was at the crime scene. And it's very clearly a pun. The caption is, if a tree falls in the woods, it's clearly a dumb joke. Like, oh, these people, like, were in the tree and it fell on top of them, or they just fell and it, you know, it's like a joke. There's also.

[B]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, doesn't make a sound.

[A]

Yeah, there's. And also, I just want to clear different. There's no blood. It's bizarre when Baldwin's going on about this of like, though they're either dead or they're pretending to be dead, there's no indication that they're dead. What. What is he talking about? I want to remind everyone, Baldwin wanted thousands of dollars from Indiana taxpayers to cover his travel to Georgia to get this thing from an Internet sleuth. And now we know why.

[B]

Yeah. He reveals in here why the Internet sleuth, quote, refused to turn the images over to the defense via the Internet as he did not know whether he could trust us. End quote. So, yeah, that's a real on the ball guy there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

An exercise I do sometimes is when someone says something or suggests something, I'll say to myself, okay, what do they think this means? And so I'm going to ask you that question, Anya. What does he think this means? Does he think that this man Holder said to himself one day, I know what I want to do. I want to kill two girls. And I think it'll look something like this. And then he stages it and he posts a picture of it on Facebook to give him an idea of what he wants to do later with a real murder? I mean, why would you do that?

[A]

I think that. But I also think what Baldwin sort of darkly alludes to in this, without he, you know, he knows enough not to explicitly state this, but with some of the things about they're either dead or posing as dead. He may also be trying to suggest that Brad Holder is a serial killer who's done this before. And these are two of his victims that we just haven't identified yet, which is obviously completely insane.

[B]

Holder. Brad Holder does not deserve to be accused of murder.

[A]

No, it's ridiculous. This is. This guy had an alibi. Okay. And I. I just feel that.

I. I feel like this is. It's bizarre and I just want to say, like, it's a weird picture, but the similarities between this and the Delphi crime scene are frankly superficial. They do not seem to indicate any special knowledge. And frankly, they're different enough where it's like when one is a whole tree on two people and the other are a bunch of small sticks crisscrossing. It doesn't even look that similar, if you really think about it. And it certainly doesn't show any sort of advanced knowledge. And. And I'm going to say this like, I think this is so funny. He says in this complaint, quote, when law enforcement officers were shown this image, they tried to claim the image meant nothing and generally was not very important, which is crazy to me. End quote.

[B]

They were right on the money.

[A]

They were completely right on the money. Those are actual professionals. And saying, which is crazy to me, is a wild thing to include in this, the level of casual.

Addiction and word choice and everything here.

[B]

And think, too. Yeah, think too, of how far afield we have come, because this is in a document that is written to make a complaint against Nick McClelland. Why would the stuff like the opinion of law enforcement officers about a stupid picture. Why would that have any bearing on how we should evaluate it?

[A]

It's like he's still trying to re litigate the Odinism theory to anyone who will listen. It would not surprise me if we just were driving through Indianapolis and saw him on a corner just yelling about onism at this point, because that's seemingly what he's all he's doing.

[B]

But that's not what he's supposed to be doing in this document.

[A]

No, it's not. It doesn't serve his purpose. His purpose is to get Nicholas McLean in trouble because Nicholas McLean had the gall to beat him badly in a very public venue. But he's. He can't help himself. He's just rambling.

[B]

And remember, folks, that this was dismissed, didn't even require a reply. That's how weak and flimsy it was.

[A]

I just.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

Yeah, I just. I. I don't. It. It's really, on some level, it's. It's disturbing because it's. I. I don't know. It's like this, this is not a grip of. On reality. So next we get into relitigating the situation where. So to be clear, in 2017, there were a lot of different law enforcement officers from a variety of different agencies. It was chaos. We document this pretty extensively in our book Shadow of the Bridge. And there was a setup where in one of the video conference rooms used by law enforcement, you could turn a key and everything would record audio and video. Somebody forgot to unturn the key, so it was left on. And as a result, previously taped video interviews were taped over. So this was a technical error. No one. You know, we don't know who exactly made the mistake here, but it was, it was not ideal. And what happened was law enforcement either tried to document what they got in reports, or in some cases, they would try to go back and figure out, okay, who are we missing? And let's redo those. And I just want to be very clear about something. Nothing of value was lost.

Nothing of value was lost. And the reason for that is because Richard Allen was not interviewed. And when we look at this, it's like.

When we look at this, one of the things that was lost was the early interview with Brad Holder. The defense made a huge deal of this going into pre trial. And the fact of the matter is, first of all, Brad Holder is still alive. They can still talk to him about his whereabouts, and they could have, you know, done stuff with him. And I know law enforcement did go back and talk to him again after being asked about this by defense in the depositions. But perhaps more importantly, Brad Holder had an alibi. Brad Holder was not at the crime scene because he was at work, and then he went to the gym. And neither of those two things happened in Delphi.

[B]

So. So it was an early interview with a man who was conclusively cleared.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So this is what Baldwin has to say about it. Quote, having early interviews recorded over would be huge news among law enforcement and the prosecutor in 2017. I mean, huge. This is the type of issue that would be talked about and that top people in charge of the investigation would be aware of. Seismic news that everyone would remember, end quote. So he's acting like, oh, they, they acted like they didn't remember in depositions. It's like a lot was going on in those early days. I don't think you can underscore that. And you know what? He asks for a lot of Grace in what he's doing. And the defense team did throughout the whole thing where they're accusing McClelland of hiding discovery, and then it turns out they have it, and they're like, oh, it's just so chaotic. Yeah, it was very chaotic for these people, too. They were going through a lot of information and losing a bunch of interviews with people who were conclusively cleared through other means. Doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It's not ideal, but it doesn't matter in the long term. So the acting, like, you know, he literally put huge news in all caps.

[B]

Yeah. Anytime when Ani and I had been reading and we suddenly emphasize something, that's our subtle way of showing that Baldwin put that all in caps. And again, putting random words all in caps is something I'd expect to see, like, in a comic book. And I say that as a comic book fan. I don't really see that a lot in legal documents.

[A]

No, you don't. Because usually people are kind of professional about it, but there's more fan fiction. Can I read that?

[B]

This is your favorite part.

[A]

This is my favorite part.

[B]

For me to deprive you of your little pleasures.

[A]

I love it. Quote, the very moment that the defense requested the holder in Westfall interviews because it would have been such huge news that crucial evidence had been destroyed, McLeland should have immediately known that the videos were destroyed. And immediately, no later than a day or two, told us something like, hey, I'm sorry. I thought you already knew this, but apparently you don't. There was about a month and a half of missing interviews starting on February 17, 2017, to the end of the month, and then from the end of April 2017 to the beginning of June 2017. That is something you should have known. I am so sorry. I will do anything. You need to make sure that you are satisfied with our explanation as to why those interviews were destroyed. Instead, McClelland failed to let us know about the missing evidence, end quote. It's not evidence. They. They cleared the guy with an alibi. It doesn't. There's nothing like yelling about how things are evidence. Yelling about how things are culpatory does not make those things true. And frankly, writing all these things where he. What he wants McClellan to have said to him just seems really weird.

Yeah, this is more repetition. Can I go into that?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Quote. When we requested a report that detailed what happened to the missing interviews, McCleland eventually sent us an undated report. Let me repeat that. We were sent an undated report. That purported to explain why this evidence was taped over. McClelland and law enforcement apparently want the defense to simply believe that the contents of this undated report and how it explained why this crucial evidence was purportedly recorded over. Once again, nothing to see here. Undated report. Nothing to see here. Missing evidence that the defense had been seeking for many months. Nothing to see here. Just move on.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait a minute, Anya. I might. I might have missed something. What did you say the date of that report was?

[A]

Undate.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You know what that, you know what that sounds like? That sounds like one of those, like, weird sleazy commercial, like, you know, get credit for free. You know, like. And they just keep repeating the same thing over again. The call to action so that you go sign up for some scammy thing. That's what he sounds like. That's what he sounds like. It's, it's just absolutely. I think he's trying to convey to the commission that he's so frustrated and he's just at the end of his rope and he's just, you know, doing all. But he just sounds ridiculous. He sounds preposterous, like this is buffoonery. So. Yeah. Then he relitigates Brad Holder, thinking, so Brad Holder in later conversations with police that were done, I think at the request of Baldwin, at this point, he recalled thinking that law enforcement took his phone and extracted it. Now there's an extraction for his son's phone, but there's nothing for Brad Holder. So instead of just thinking, okay, Brad Holder got it wrong. And I think in some filings, Nicholas McClelland pointed out other things that Brad Holder misremembered about this situation. Like he thought he was interviewed in one place, but the evidence is that he was interviewed somewhere else.

They just didn't take his phone. And I can see why they didn't take his phone because he had an alibi. Yeah, like, filings came out recently that showed, like they were able to look and his cars on, like the camera at his workplace. Like, it's not subtle.

[B]

He had a great alibi. Brad Holder had nothing to do with these.

[A]

Why would they take his phone if they cleared him? It doesn't make any sense. So freaking out about, oh, we've. There's no extraction and musk as they hit it. It just doesn't make any sense if you actually look at what's happening. I mean, this has been a problem for the defense throughout. Baldwin seems to think that just because Holder and odinism were important to him, as far as probably Carving out his own niche in the media and getting a lot of attention, that it was equally important and all consuming to investigators and that it remained so throughout the course of the investigation. It did not. They did their due diligence, and they looked into these things, and it didn't go anywhere. And they moved on as they should have and as, frankly, he should have.

[B]

A little bit about the safekeeping order. Why don't you talk about that very briefly?

[A]

Do you want to explain what the safekeeping order is?

[B]

Yeah. This is so shortly after Allen's arrest, the crime occurred in Carroll County. He's in the Carroll county jail, and the sheriff says, wait a minute. We don't think it's safe for him to be here. We don't even have the room for him to be in here. Let's put him somewhere else. And so he has indeed moved somewhere else. And I could tell you Anja and I were in the old jail. Very small, tiny, like.

[A]

Like, way, way too tiny. And I think, like, people were sleeping in the library or something. Like, it was just. It was cramped quarters, and there were too many people for it.

[B]

So I think there were safety reasons. I think there were overcrowding reasons, and I think they overlap. And I think it would have been very challenging to keep Mr. Allen safe in that facility.

[A]

I think overcrowding is a safety issue. It's a safety concern because if you have too many people, first of all, you don't necessarily have the staff to break up something if it starts happening.

[B]

So what. What did Baldwin say about this?

[A]

He said, quote, in response to the motion to correct errors, McClelland attached an affidavit from Tobe Lezenby, in which Lezenby claimed on January 28, 2025, that he, Lezenby, shipped our client, Richard Allen, off to White county not because of a safety concern, but because of overcrowding in the Carroll county jail. This is important in the context of Allen's Cronick claim and that if Lesnby moved Allen to White county because of safety reasons before a safekeeping order was signed, then it creates legal problems for the prosecution that may manifest themselves at the appellate level, end quote. So it's. I guess his conspiracy theory is that McClelland forced Lezenby to change his statement. Like, are you. Like what? They're all related. It's just stupid. He also claims Lezenby said Judge Benjamin Deener edited the safekeeping motions wording. And like, whatever. It's just, like, just stupid nonsense. I feel like, for me, a lot of this, I'll just say this. A lot of this reads more like someone being very aggressive and manipulative and kind of falsely accusing other people of wrongdoing in order to spare their own ego from the devastating blow that this trial clearly was. And I want to be clear.

I did not feel like the defense team, especially Baldwin, lived up to anywhere close to the hype that they had gotten going into this trial just from a basic performance.

Level and not even talking about did they have a good case. They didn't because Richard Allen was very clearly guilty and the evidence pointed conclusively to him. But if we take that off the table and we just look at how they did as far as performers on the stage, which is effectively to a certain extent what a lot of lawyers are. They did abysmally. They were not convincing, they were not good. Baldwin rambled, he sounded unsure of himself, he sounded ridiculous. The only saving grace for him was that he did better then. Then he did at the friggin three day hearing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the only nice thing I'll say about it.

[B]

Do you have any other things you want to say in summary before I move on to something else?

[A]

Well, I will say that, I mean.

This was not an isolated incident, this complaint. This complaint was obviously very frivolous, but it was not isolated. The people on the defense side of this have clearly have a history of weaponizing law as a tool to harass people.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to get back to and conclude with Baldwin's the end of his complaint and say a couple of things about that. But yeah, before we do that, let's talk about that. Let's talk about my own experience. The people on the defense side have a history, as Anya was saying, of weaponizing law and using other instruments as tools to harass people who believe, quite correctly, the Richard Allen killed those girls and those people are connected.

So it is time to talk about the complaint and harassment against me and against us. Earlier this year, one of Richard Allen's appellate attorneys, a woman named Kara Winegie, actually contacted our publisher and asked for an early copy of the book. And she suggested in that email that she was considering filing a lawsuit over the book, even though at that time she clearly had not yet even read it. And this is an interesting thing that I think is worth noting, that Ms. Winitke also, by the way, believes we never went to the moon.

[A]

I also want to add that Kara Wieniecke is actually a member of Indiana's disciplinary commission. Her term expires in 2028. That's right. This is a person actually tasked with disciplining other attorneys in Indiana. Think about that for a minute. So if any of you attorneys out there are big fans of our space program or the Apollo missions, watch out and be careful.

[B]

Our publisher did not give her a copy of the book, and there are a few reasons for that. One of which is at the time she asked, there wasn't a final text of the book. We were actually still writing it. But after she was refused, shortly thereafter, minutes later.

A YouTuber entered the picture.

[A]

Yes, this is someone who sits around her apartment, sort of slurring her way through these really awkward pause filled YouTube lives and just getting into the most boring minutiae of this case possible. And also ranting about creators she doesn't like for whatever reason. So this is a person who reached out to us a number of times. She would like wave around these years old press clippings in a bid to impress upon us that she was a very serious journalist who needed to be taken very seriously, not a burnout who hasn't written anything meaningful in years. She emailed us these really dumb questions about Reddit, rumors about us, and then seemed to take a lot of offense to my suggestion that she not take social media misinformation so seriously. And since then, she's. She's just spiraled. I mean, like, there's no way to say it nicely. She spiraled. She's put out a bunch of weird lies about us, including this outlandish claim that we were involved in a swatting incident in New York state. For the record, we weren't. This YouTuber is very friendly with Winicke.

[B]

Yeah, and as I say, shortly after Winicke tried and failed to get the copy. I don't know if it was minutes after, but it was very soon after. It was the same day Winake was refused. So this YouTuber wrote to our publisher and said, well, I'm going to be reviewing this book for a specific outlet. And she requested a copy of it and she did not get one either. But as it turns out, that YouTuber was lying. She was not reviewing the book for that outlet, had not even raised that possibility with them. So she was falsely using their good name in an attempt to trick our publisher. And again, it did not work. And the YouTuber later acted like it was some sort of a game. And she admitted in a tweet that she later deleted that quote, it was a ruse to get hands on Ms. Book because the PR person wouldn't turn one over to one of the lawyers integral to the case. End quote.

[A]

So she's acting as an agent for that. For Weinecke. Yeah.

[B]

And she's basically. She's admitting that she was willing to lie and sacrifice her own credibility in order to be of possible service to lawyers in this case.

[A]

Can I just say, I love someone Proclaiming online. It was a ruse. You sound like some ridiculous serial villain. Just totally inept. It's just embarrassing. My ruse failed.

What a loser. Oh, my God.

[B]

This YouTuber has also interviewed none other than Andrew Baldwin on her channel, and she has claimed in a tweet that Baldwin even released to her an unredacted deposition in this case, which is opposed to the redacted version that was released publicly. So the two of them are obviously friendly.

[A]

Yeah. Seemingly continues to think.

[B]

And she's, like, doing favors for lawyers in this case. And I mentioned all this because she is one of two people who filed a frivolous complaint against me with the.

[A]

Disciplinary Commission over the Delphi case.

[B]

Over the Delphi case.

[A]

Which you were not a party to.

[B]

I was briefly. Technically, a party.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because as you may or may not recall, folks, there was a time when a lot of court records were being improperly sealed, and Anya and I decided to do something about that, and we filed into the case and got those records released. So, technically, I was part of the case in a very, very limited way for a very brief time.

[A]

Limited scope. And then you were removed along with everybody else.

[B]

Yeah. So she filed this complaint against me. I don't know if anyone directed her to do that. I don't know.

[A]

I wouldn't be. I wouldn't. I. Nothing would surprise me anymore. But we certainly have no way of knowing if somebody who she was close to in this case, like Weinecke or Baldwin, told her to do that.

[B]

Yeah. So, no. Who knows? We're certainly not asserting that that's the case.

[A]

No, I don't. I don't know. I mean, this. There's no evidence either way, but it's. It's interesting who she's close to in this case.

[B]

Yeah. So what exactly did she complain about? What exactly did I do that was so wrong that Meredith, this complaint. Well, at a couple of points during our coverage, Anya did the sort of thing reporters are supposed to do. She sent messages asking Richard Allen for comment. He never replied. This YouTuber said that was a violation of the rule that says lawyers are not supposed to contact people in a case who are represented by other lawyers. And again, Anya was the one that.

[A]

Contacted, and I am Not a lawyer.

[B]

Yes, the commission disagreed with her and they dismissed it.

[A]

Shocking.

[B]

There was also a second complaint against me. This is one was from the woman. You may remember she once posted a picture of our house on a discord, saying fafo. So clearly a threat. And that complaint was also dismissed.

For me. Now, I imagine at this point, some of you might have a question like, these people had nothing to do with the case. They don't even live in Indiana.

How can they complain? Well, believe it or not, anybody, whether you're connected to a case or not, whether you live in Indiana or not, you can file a complaint against a lawyer in Indiana. And on some reason, on some level, it just feels bizarre to me that as far as we know, the only two attorneys who have complaints against them connected to Delphi are me and McLeland.

[A]

This is a case that was rife with lies, lies in legal briefs, lies to judges. This was a case where there was a disastrous leak of evidence featuring pictures of the murdered bodies of children. And you guys are the only two who got complaints filed on you. That's, it is wild to me to think about.

[B]

Yeah. You think it's a pattern?

[A]

I, I, I, I, I think it's a pattern, yeah. I mean, I think these are people who are using instruments of law to silence those they disagree with. And frankly, it struck us that both of these complaints, frankly, or I guess all three, were so frivolous. The real goal here, in terms of the ones filed against us, was to chill our ability to reach out to key figures in the case. In other words, shut down our attempts to get to the truth. And I think in the case of Baldwin's complaint against McClelland and, and frankly, the ones against you, too, the purpose was to punish, to punish enemies, to get revenge. You know, Richard Allen is going to die in prison, but we can get people for what they did. These people are largely driven by the idea that they are morally superior to others and that everything they do must be right and those who disagree with them must be evil. So they're completely entitled to do whatever they can to harm people like us and people like McCleland, because, you know, they just have a twisted way of viewing the world. I think, I think they think they're doing the right thing, at least in the case of the people who filed against you. But I think they have become so in the weeds with these conspiracy theories that they just see themselves as fighters for the truth, and they have no perspective.

[B]

So all this raises the question, what has Baldwin accomplished with all of this, and it might be tempting to say nothing, but I don't think that's true, and I'll tell you why. Before this, the only respected figure to weigh in on McClelland's conduct of this trial was Judge Gold. And it would be easy, I think, for some people to say, oh, maybe Judge Gold was biased and he really was a bad guy. But now the frigging disciplinary commission of Indiana has also weighed in, thanks to Andrew Baldwin, and they gave Nick McLeland an absolute clean bill of health. So because of Baldwin filing this complaint, he has revealed even more clearly how empty and meritless his claims about Nicholas McLeland's conduct of this case has been.

[A]

I thought it was really telling something that Baldwin wrote at the end of his complaint.

[B]

Why don't you read that and then I'll respond.

[A]

Yes. What? This is what he said. Quote, what has happened in this case has caused me to lose faith in the system.

[B]

Well, Mr. Baldwin, I am going to be very honest here. Over the last few months, I have heard from many people who have said much the same thing, that this case has made them lose faith in the system. And they tell me why. Why they've lost faith.

And some of them express it in just a single word. And that word is Baldwin. You, sir, are why they lost faith. You and your colleagues made a travesty of this process, and you continue to do so with nonsense like this complaint against Mr. McCleland. You spun wild and groundless conspiracies that collapsed under their own weight. You repeatedly assassinated the character of men and women who are far better than you. Crime scene photos entrusted to you, leaked to the public, and ultimately led to the death of a man. You turned a murder trial into tawdry performance art for YouTubers. On many days, you have made me embarrassed to be an Indiana lawyer. But let's remember something else. All of your stunts, from the beginning, all the way to this lengthy and ridiculous attempt to complain about McCleland, they all failed. And they failed in about as huge of a way as they possibly could. Your client lost and was sentenced to the maximum he could get. He will die in prison. This complaint was dismissed.

You still have a shrinking number of rabid YouTube cranks waving the flag for you. But even the majority of them have moved on. Your tiny audience decreases daily. I remember, too, that when you were at your peak of influence, when your wild lies and asinine assertions were directly impacting the lives of the good men and women who worked so hard on this case, when they were being harassed by your YouTube army. Those people kept their heads down and worked even harder to get justice for the girls and they won. At the end of the day, they have made me deeply proud to be an Indiana lawyer. So at the end of the day, you made the process an extraordinarily ugly one, but the system worked just as it should. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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[B]

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