The Delphi Murders: Covering the Case

Summary

The Delphi Murders: Covering the Case

Murder Sheet Podcast
Hosts: Áine (Anya) Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Episode Date: August 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Anya Cain and Kevin Greenlee, the duo behind the Murder Sheet podcast, open up about their journey covering the Delphi Murders case—the 2017 killing of Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana. With their new book, Shadow of the Bridge, imminent, they share candid behind-the-scenes stories not included in the book, discuss the emotional toll of the case, reflect on the challenges of reporting in the podcast medium, and examine how true crime coverage has evolved or faltered in the age of social media and conspiracy theories.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Getting Involved in the Delphi Case

• Clarification of Their Start: The hosts address misconceptions that they were involved from the start, stating they only began covering Delphi after moving back to Indiana and being prompted by listeners and local friends.
  • “People say that, and then you don't want to correct somebody on air, so we just kind of let it hang there. But we did not cover it from... We didn’t know each other in 2017.” (06:18, Anya)
• Attraction to the Case: Anya discusses the universal, relatable fear stemming from the victim's innocence, while Kevin is bewildered by the legal world's lack of focus on the case.
  • “If you're the father or mother of a young… woman, that's just scary. And then… people relate to it because they could see themselves going out for a nice walk one day...” (09:57, Anya)
  • “We got comments from a number of lawyers… we don't understand why this story has generated the amount of attention it has.” (09:47, Kevin)

2. A Journalistic Approach & Not Becoming the Story

• Focus of Coverage: The hosts purposely keep themselves out of the spotlight in both podcast and book, emphasizing old-fashioned, source-based crime reporting.
  • “We are in the book very, very little. The real focus… is on the men and women working behind the scenes to secure justice for Abby and Libby.” (03:20, Kevin)
  • “We would be two random, awkward looking extras… We're not main characters here.” (03:47, Anya)

3. Breakthrough Moments in Reporting

• Anthony_Schatz/Kegan Klein Coverage: Uncovering the identity and background of Kegan Klein marked a pivotal moment where the hosts began conducting original investigations, not just summarizing others’ work.
  • “That was the real turning point because that's when Anya was the first one to realize that we could actually not just summarize information already out there. We could start trying to get information ourselves.” (12:45, Kevin)
• The "Oops" Leak Discovery: While seeking Kegan Klein's prison location, Kevin inadvertently accessed and downloaded sealed investigative transcripts mistakenly posted by the court—a move that led to both a scoop and fierce backlash.
  • “I look to see how other people are covering it and nobody else is… then I go back to my case and those things have been deleted.” (15:36, Kevin)
  • “Nobody believed us… The conspiracy was that ISP or somebody decided to do us a favor… there was no love for us within ISP… we have been annoying for a lot of the time.” (17:24–17:52, Hosts)
• Responsibility and Regrets: Both hosts reflect on their handling of the Ron Logan search warrant release, regretting not clarifying its historical (not current) context—leading some to believe Logan was the prime suspect.
  • “What I regret about that situation was I don’t think we explained it very well in retrospect. I think we were naive at the time about how we did that…” (24:44, Anya)

4. Handling Sources, Stress, and the Police

• Protecting Sources: The stress and ethical responsibility of managing sensitive sources is emphasized—especially as police actively tried to uncover their informants.
  • “There were times when people from the Indiana State Police tried to figure out our sources.” (30:03, Kevin)
  • “That was the most stressful… the classic trick of like, give everyone a different color or day of the week and see what leaks.” (30:28, Anya)
• Relationship with Law Enforcement: They clarify they did not receive leaks from ISP; rather, ISP sought to plug leaks by investigating the podcasters’ sources.

5. Online Threats, Trolls, and Community Reaction

• Toxicity in True Crime: The hosts recount sustained threats, the toxic competitiveness among online creators, and general chaos in the true crime community during high-profile cases.
  • “We got death threats. We got, like, threat. Like, someone posted our house on a discord. I mean, it was nuts.” (45:46, Anya)
  • “The threats and harassment, it works because a lot of sensible people… see the threats and harassment that people like us get, and then they stay out of the space.” (47:15, Kevin)
• Dividing Lines in Online Reporting: The hosts stress their refusal to engage in speculation or sensationalism, despite being categorized by some as just more “podcasters.”
  • “We weren’t reporting our hunches on the show… we knew that from multiple sources.” (38:16, Kevin)

6. Emotional and Ethical Challenges

• Impact of Crime Scene Photos Leak: The hosts describe being contacted with leaked crime scene photos—a traumatic, ethically fraught event. They tried (in vain) to stop the spread.
  • “On an emotional level, seeing them, like, that was really, really upsetting… I’ve never gotten the images out of my head.” (60:22, Anya)
  • “This defense team bears moral responsibility for the leak… this led to a man dying… that is their doing.” (62:54, Anya)
• Coping with the Trial’s Emotional Toll: Anya shares her difficulty seeing graphic trial evidence, even stepping out during proceedings due to distress.
  • “I just kind of had a panic attack, I think, and left in the hallway. I was just like, I can’t do this anymore.” (69:10, Anya)

7. Navigating the Delphi Trial

• Reporting Despite Burnout: The hosts considered quitting trial coverage due to exhaustion and emotional trauma, but were motivated to stay by the need to correct disinformation spread by others in the courtroom.
  • “Spite and anger kept us there. Like, we were just like, we can’t do this anymore… but there are people in that courtroom, there’s family members, there’s investigators who can’t leave. And it feels to them, we owe the truth.” (73:31–74:30, Anya and Kevin)
• Perceptions, Acquittal, and Guilt: The hosts discuss their shifting perspectives on Richard Allen’s culpability, their conscious neutrality on air, and misalignments between press room predictions and actual verdict.
  • “If someone covers a case in a way that leaves the audience confused about the outcome, they did a terrible job.” (86:47, Kevin)

8. Writing the Book (Shadow of the Bridge)

• How the Book Came About: Describes the approach to finding an agent, securing a publisher, and the intense process of writing while maintaining podcast output.
  • “We were doing, like, three episodes a week while also spending, what, 12-13 hours a day writing.” (93:04, Kevin)
• Donating Profits: Half of their advance is being donated to Abby & Libby’s memorial funds, showing ongoing commitment to the community.
  • “We made the personal decision to donate half of our advance to the park / Abby and Libby scholarship funds.” (112:00, Anya)

9. Reflections and Lessons Learned

• On Objectivity, Conspiracies, and Crowd Behavior:
  • “It’s not enough to sort of both sides a case like Delphi. It’s not enough to come in and say, ‘Ah yes, Odinism. Interesting.’ When Odinism is falling apart… we should say that, we’re not serving our audience by acting like, by whitewashing.” (104:40, Anya)
  • “Delphi has made me aware of the need to keep the victim centered… it was all too easy to forget that what this case is about… is the unimaginable loss of two wonderful girls.” (103:43, Kevin)
• On Community and Good People:
  • “There are people out there who will never give up and who will keep trying and keep doing what they need to do until answers come. So, that’s something that will stick with me forever.” (114:15, Anya)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On their role as reporters:
  “We’re not main characters here… We wanted to write an old-fashioned true crime book in the sense that it’s focused on the actual story.” (03:47–04:51, Anya)
• On journalist responsibility:
  “You can always release something later. You can't take something back once you've released it.” (53:07, Anya)
• On leaks:
  “This defense team bears moral responsibility for the leak… this led to a man dying, and that is on the hands of this defense team.” (62:54, Anya)
• On impact of the trial:
  “You could see a lot of it having an impact, I think, on the jury… It was hard. It was hard to look at. And I still… see some of that, you know, it's burned into my mind.” (71:25, Anya)
• On lessons and centering victims:
  “Centering the victims, too. I think, you know, by the end, the story became the girls solved their own case. And I want that to be what people remember about this.” (109:33, Anya)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Content warning & episode setup: [01:33]
• Clarifying when coverage began: [06:03–08:31]
• Why Delphi gripped the public: [09:47–11:59]
• Original reporting/finding Kegan Klein: [11:59–14:17]
• Discovering the leak & fallout: [15:31–18:37]
• On sources & law enforcement: [29:09–33:39]
• On the toxicity of online coverage: [43:42–47:48]
• Debating Allen’s guilt & trial coverage: [53:07–59:08]
• The emotional toll of leaked crime scene images: [60:10–66:43]
• Why they stuck with trial coverage (spite, sense of duty): [73:09–74:38]
• Writing the book: [90:42–94:05]
• Lessons learned & changes to true crime approach: [99:34–109:32]
• Closing reflections on community and hope: [113:40–115:44]

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Tone

Conversational, self-critical, candid, passionate, and occasionally darkly humorous. The hosts’ banter and mutual respect for each other is evident throughout, as is a deep sense of responsibility toward victims and accuracy.

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Conclusion

This episode offered a rare, deeply personal look at the mechanics and ethics of covering a notorious true crime case. The hosts share their missteps, emotional struggles, lessons learned, and reaffirm their dedication to respectful reporting. It also previews their book, which they hope will honor the victims and those who sought justice for them—while also serving as a corrective to some of the chaos and misinformation that surrounded this case in the public sphere.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Of murder, including the murder of two girls. So today on the murder sheet we're going to be revisiting the Delphi murders case. Of course, this is the 2017 Delphi double homicide of 13 year old Abigail Williams and 14 year old Liberty German, two best friends who were murdered by a man named Richard Allen in the woods of Delphi. This is a case we've covered extensively, obviously.

[B]

Also, of course we have a book coming out on the subject called Shadow of the Bridge.

[A]

Yes, Shadow of the Bridge will be out on August 26. It is available wherever you buy books. I mean, I don't, I don't really think there's any where that you're not going to find it. It's going to be on Amazon. We have links to bookshop.org people can order it through Simon and Schuster. People can. One thing that you can do is support your local indie bookstore and call them and say, hey, can you order Some or hey, can you know, will you be selling them? And that's especially good option for people who are abroad. We've heard from people in like Australia and whatnot and complicated situation regarding, I guess book rights internationally. I didn't know that going into this, but what our agent tells us is you should call your local bookstore and ask them if they can perhaps order some.

[B]

And it's important to discuss what the book is and what the book isn't. The book is going to be the behind the scenes story of what happened in the case, but the book isn't, is it's not our story. One thing that I've always found frustrating is if I pick up a book about a case and instead of being about the case, about the author's experiences covering the case and say, oh yes, I was sad that day when I saw the court defiling, so we don't do that.

[A]

That's how I feel every day.

[B]

So we are in the book very, very little. The real focus of the book is on the men and women working behind the scenes to secure justice for Abby and Libby. But with that said, some people have said, well, we'd be interested in what you didn't put in the book. We'd be interested in hearing a little bit more about your experiences covering the case. And so that is what the focus today will be.

[A]

Yeah. So this is a situation where people have asked us who would play you in the movie version of this story. First of all, I think it would be a very depressing movie. I don't really know if it really lends itself to that, but we would be two random, awkward looking extras. We wouldn't be, we would. We're not main characters here. We've not tried to make ourselves main characters in this thing. I think what's important is the investigation and how things actually unfolded from people who are directly involved. We're flies on the wall who have been observers this whole time. So you're absolutely right that I, I don't know when I. Sometimes people can pull off the memoir true crime thing and it's great, but when it, when it's not great, it stinks. And it honestly always feels to me like, wow, you really didn't have any sources, did you? Because you're just suddenly being like, I got a cup of coffee that day. It's like, what happened with the murders. So yeah, that's something that we, we were very adamant. We wanted to write an old fashioned true crime book in the sense that it's focused on the actual story.

[B]

So today we're going to do what's not in the book and talk about our own experiences.

[A]

Exactly. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[A]

We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the Deli Murders. Covering the case.

[B]

Maybe a good place to start is how did we get started covering this case? A number of times, people seem to have the idea that you and I were actually covering this case from the very beginning.

[A]

People say that, and then you don't want to correct somebody on air, so we just kind of let it hang there. But we did not cover it from. We didn't know each other in 2017.

[B]

No, we did not. I remember at the time the murders in Delphi happened, I had a family member who was undergoing some pretty serious health crises, which involved some hospitalizations. And so because of that, I wasn't able to follow the case all that closely when it first happened. And when those medical crises alleviated a bit and I looked at the case, I remember thinking, this is so complicated. I can never catch up. And so I didn't really follow it that closely for some years.

[A]

Yeah, I remember the first time I heard about it. My mom is also into true crime, as is my dad. And so I remember talking about it with my mom and sort of, you know, just, this is embarrassing in retrospect, but sort of being like, mom, like, don't worry, they're gonna catch this guy. He was, you know, he was on camera. You know, this is going to be over in, like, two weeks. So I remember having that, and it upset, I think, both of us, because my two of my younger sisters are not too far away in age from Abby and Libby. And it just seemed like this innocuous thing of these two girls going on a walk and doing Snapchats and having fun. It just seemed like something that, you know, people I love could have been doing, and it just made me relate to them and their story and their families. So, yeah, obviously, I was wrong about. You were wrong about not being able to catch up, and I was wrong about it getting solved quickly.

[B]

And then I also remember what happened then was I did end up meeting Anya. I moved to Brooklyn, New York, to be with Anya. We launched the podcast, and then we moved back to Indiana. And a number of people in Indiana, including Laura F. I don't know if I have permission to Use her full name. So I won't. But Laura F. And some other people said, this is a really big case, you guys should start covering it.

[A]

Yeah. And I think what interested me in it was there's so many unanswered questions, mysteries around this, and we don't, you know, know any details or about really what happened to a certain extent. And that made me think, if we apply some kind of journalistic fundamentals to this case, maybe we can pick it up. And my feeling was that the national and regional and local media had done a good job with it, but they can't dedicate a lot of time to a single case. Usually they have to run around and cover a lot of different things. So I was kind of thinking we can kind of be filling in the gaps here as a podcast, and that's what we sort of set out to do. I will say you, I think, were baffled by the level of interest in this case in the beginning, because you were saying, I remember you saying, basically, like, this is a horrific, horrible tragedy what happened to these two girls. I don't get why people are sort of like debating about it online, because it just seems like there's so many unknowns. Yeah, I think lawyers tend to have a different view of what's an interesting case. You tend to look at the stuff where it's like, oh, this is a big legal battle that kind of spiraled out of control or raises some interesting questions. But I think you just kind of viewed this as a tragedy and you weren't certain why it was, you know, people were necessarily, like, debating.

[B]

And actually that's, that's a comment we got from a number of lawyers behind the scenes saying we don't understand why this story has generated the amount of attention it has.

[A]

I have two theories on that. One, the victims are incredibly sympathetic, relatable, innocent young girls just having a nice day. That terrifies people. It terrifies women because it's like, that could have been me as a, as a younger girl or, or, or whatnot. And it terrifies parents. So if you're the father or mother of a young, you know, young woman, it's just scary. And then even just people who aren't in those life roles, maybe they just relate to it because they could see themselves going out for a nice walk one day. You know, just anyone with empathy, you see someone doing something that really isn't a high risk behavior and they get murdered. And it just seems fundamentally unfair. So that's one, that's the empathy piece. I think the more Of, I don't want to say the kind of, like, call to action, so to speak, I think is more of the video that Libby was able to take and the sketches to a lesser extent, where people felt, okay, we can DIY it. I think in the last, you know, decade or so, there's been a lot of optimism around, like, true crime and like, slick, let's solve a case together. And like, podcasts will tell you, like, we're gonna crowdsource to solve. I think at this point, I think all that's deeply irresponsible and problematic, but it's very well intentioned. And I think people kind of felt like if we can just squint harder, we can make these pixels into a face, that we can then solve it, or if we can just get a voice match, people felt like, we can help solve this. All of those pieces of evidence were really supposed to be for somebody who knew the killer and could have identified their voice and their gait and the way they were dressed that day and the fact that they were out there on the trail that day, that was for people in that guy's life. But they didn't do anything. So I think the public felt like we can do something. And again, very well intentioned. I think some of that went off the rails, but I do think it was coming from a really good place and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

[B]

In terms of our coverage, a really big turning point in my mind happened one day when I was out for lunch. And if you ever hear us tell stories, it feels like a lot of things happen. Like, I go out for lunch and I come back and Anya's done something. And this is one of those cases where that happened on all days. On my 50th birthday, ISP released the news of Anthony Schatz, that this is somebody who has some sort of possible connection to the investigation. Next day, I go out to lunch, and while I'm eating, it is revealed that Anthony's shots, that account is linked to a man named Keagan Klein.

[A]

Shout out to Demi Johnson, the Wish TV at the time reporter who broke that story.

[B]

And when I come back from lunch, Anya is looking at a mug shot of Mr. Klein and she's identified there's an insignia on his shirt that is connected to a union. Yes, an auto workers union. And she's decided to call the auto workers union to try to get information. And so that was the real turning point because that's when Anya was the first one to realize that we could actually not Just summarize information already out there. We could start trying to get information ourselves.

[A]

What I wanted to do with that sort of segment of reporting was, who is Cagan Klein? What's his background? Can anyone tell us anything about him? And we did a lot of interviews around that of people who knew him. And some of those were on the show, some of them were not on the show. We kind of looked at people who are interacting with him online and we're talking to them about what's his deal, what's going on here. And yeah, so just kind of applying journalistic fundamentals of like, I think the difference between journalism and commentary is like commentary, you can kind of just, you know, here's what I think about this. But journalism, you're going out and actually talking to people and you're not, you don't have any preconceived notions. You're not coming to them and being like, well, this guy is obviously the killer, right? I mean, you're just saying, like, what's he like? You're not asking leading questions. You're just like letting them tell you what their experiences. If that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

So, yeah, that was kind of the beginning.

[B]

So, yeah, we covered Kegan Klein for a bit. And then I'm always, I'm the one that's always like, discouraged and frustrated. And I remember a few months into the Kegan Klein sort of coverage, I'm thinking, okay, we've done every possible show on Delphi we ever could. There's no new angle to do. And I thought, well, what if we write Kegan Klein a letter? Maybe we can get something from there that would be worth broadcasting on our program. And so I go to my case, which is, this is the database here in Indiana that has all the court filings. And I go there because my mind is blank. I don't remember where Kagan Klein is located. And so I log onto his case to try to get that information. And what I see there is that there have been two recent filings into the case, one of which is a transcript of an interview he did with HLN reporter Robert McDonald. I believe she's now with Court TV. And the other is like over 100 page transcript of an interview that Kagan Klein had with ISP detective Dave Vito.

[A]

And Jeremy Clinton of the U.S. marshals Service.

[B]

And so I download them and then I said, this is a big deal. And so I look to see how other people are covering it and nobody else is covering it. And then I go back to my case and those things have been deleted.

[A]

We were like, what just happened?

[B]

What's going on?

[A]

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[A]

Nobody believed us.

[B]

Nobody believed us.

[A]

Well actually, I mean most people did, but like the haters didn't. They were like, ah, it's a leak. It wasn't, it was just a mistaken upload.

[B]

Yeah, the conspiracy was that ISP or somebody decided to do us a favor. And if you are familiar with our coverage of the Berbachev case, which was going, going hot and heavy at this time, this was back in 2022, we were not very favorable to ISP in that coverage.

[A]

I wouldn't be surprised if people like qualified on the range with photos of us, you know, like as the target practice. I mean like I'm, I'm mostly kidding but like, I mean like that was not, there's no, I don't think there was any love for us within ISP certainly at that time. And you know, I think honestly, I mean we can talk more about that. But I like as far as isp, Indiana State Police as like a whole, I mean, I think mostly what we've done is be annoying for a lot of the time. So I feel like people. When people sort of like, oh, they're working hand in hand. I don't really know. No, I mean, like, that's not really how anything works. Right. Yeah.

[B]

I was guilty before this of thinking of ISP or any other law enforcement agency as kind of a monolith.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the ISP does this, the ISP does that, and it's like the Borg.

[A]

They're all doing it together.

[B]

Yeah. It's one big unit. But I think instead, it's like any workplace ever. I was gonna say it's like a high school. You never say, oh, Columbus East High School had this view or this view. You think, well, there were some people at the high school who thought this way. There's other people who thought this way. People had their own little groups and stuff. And it's just any other workplace, it's just a group of individuals with different thoughts and opinions.

[A]

There might be a general workplace culture or a general ISP culture, and you might see commonalities and whatnot and shared values. But it's been something where. Yeah, it's a very. It's not a monolith. And I don't really think any police agency is even. Even smaller ones. It's just, you know, it's just all over the place. Which is. Which makes sense when you think about it. But I think sometimes it's easy to kind of take a broad view of things like that.

[B]

So we. We got these. These files, which had a lot of information in them that had not been previously released to the public. This is really the public's first glimpse inside the investigation. And it's like, anya, what do we do? And one thing we did, we reached out to the Miami County Prosecutor's Office, and they kind of ducked our call.

[A]

They did not respond.

[B]

Did they explain that? Later?

[A]

They told us later. They were like, we. They were like, we were going to reach out to you and say, please don't use that. But then we figured if we did that, you would just do it anyway, and then we would look like we were trying to hide something. So it was interesting because they were.

[B]

Playing, like, 3D chess with us.

[A]

They were playing like. Yeah, they were going. They were like, you know, game theorying it out. The thing was that was funny is that I think if they had told us, please don't use this, we wouldn't have. I mean, like, I can kind of almost guarantee you that's what we would have done at that point. But I. But we didn't hear from them. So we Were like, obviously they don't care, but they did. So, you know, poor Miami. They. I. I felt. In retrospect, I felt so bad. Can you imagine? They must have been. I mean, I think they were freaking out when this happened. You know, they. They did not do this on purpose. They did not want this to happen.

[B]

It was a mistake.

[A]

It was just an error. It was just.

[B]

It was only up for a very short time.

[A]

It was. It was corrected almost immediately. It just happened that Kevin happened to get it.

[B]

But, you know, with my big idea, oh, I'm gonna write Kegan Klein a letter, but, you know, that ridiculous idea.

[A]

I. I do feel bad because I. I imagine this a lot of stress over there. And, you know, I. Reflecting on that later, you know, I. Again, I felt like we. We try. We've always tried to act in what we feel is like a balance of. Of not doing anything horrible for a case, but also enlightening the public on what's going on. And that can be a hard balance. And I. I understand not everyone's always going to agree with what we do, and we. We understand that, and I respect different opinions on that. But. But yeah, this was. This was quite a thing. I remember, like. I mean, it was so crazy, though, because we were in the middle of. We were in the middle of filming a documentary on Burger Chef, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that was happening. And we were like, both, like, all, like. Like, kind of like. And like the director, I remember, was talking to us, and we're like, yeah, there's some stuff happening, like, in a different case. How do we even explain. Explain this to anybody? And then I remember the other thing that was going on was we released episodes on the transcript. And then in, like, the middle of that, I think we released an episode on, like, a 1700s tavern homicide. I felt like a lot of people were like, what? It's like, well, I don't know. I think this is interesting, too. And they're like, what the hell are you doing? I don't know.

[B]

We're very odd people in many respects.

[A]

That was the last time I think I'm ever. I think we kind of said. I think we kind of were like, oh, we have this stuff. And then, like, then suddenly, like, everyone was coming at us. So I think that was the last time we ever, like, quote, we weren't try. I don't think we were trying to tease anything. We weren't trying to be like, oh, you know, da, da, da. But it was more of like, we mentioned it. And then every, like, I. Since Then we've been much more like, we're not gonna, like, give a warning salvo. Yeah, like, that was really stressful because then suddenly all these people, these random YouTube people are coming out of the woodwork at us and like, ah, they're undercover cops. What?

[B]

No, it was. You said it was like, we got canceled. What was that? Like?

[A]

Oh, that was later. That was. I mean, this one was maybe the kind of the start of that. But I remember, I mean, canceled. Such a stupid word. I mean, we didn't get canceled. We're fine. But we. We got like. We got like, kind of dunked on by a lot of people on like, X or Twitter or whatever we want to call it in the true crime space after, I think we published the Ron Logan affidavit. Again, would I do that differently? And now probably, I. I feel like we. We were. You have to understand, we. We're coming into this with the kind of perspective of like, you know, would a newspaper cover this? And I felt the answer would have been yes. You know what it was. It was a matter of. What I regret about that situation was I don't think we explained it very well in retrospect. I think it was a situation where we put it out and we had a very academic view of it.

[B]

This is the Ron Logan search warrant, which was issued shortly after the murders. And in the search warrant, they were basically laying out the case. Here's why we think we should search Ron Logan's house and his property. And this was reflective of the thoughts of at least a certain faction of Investigators. In 2017. We released it like five years later. So it wasn't terribly relevant to what was happening in 2022. It was very interesting as a glimpse as to what happened in 2017, which.

[A]

Is like an overly academic view when we consider it compared to mass media and social media. And I recognize that. I think we were naive at the time about how we did that because we were sort of, again, thinking, wow, this tells us where the case was in 2017. Isn't that interesting? Obviously there was not enough against this guy, but these are some of the things they're looking at. And everybody else was like, ron Logan did it. And, you know, I. Again, I regret how we handled that in that respect. I regret not being more prudent or kind of understanding that people are just going to take this and run with it. And you have to kind of guard against that by being, you know, selective or being, I don't know, more forceful. I don't feel like we Explained it well, I don't think we. You know, that was one thing I have. I have regrets about, for sure. A lot of things in behind the scenes and whatnot. I just don't think we handled that the best. It wasn't ill intent, and it wasn't like we were like. It wasn't like we were like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be such a bombshell. We were just like, oh, this is something that would be adding to the public's understanding of the case. And I just. I think we were naive about it. And it was. I mean, it was a lesson, for sure. I would say this, though. Yeah, we. Then we got the. But you know, the thing is, I do think I. I think we didn't handle it perfectly. But then you had people running around being like, the murder sheet is evil. And it was like, what. You know, it, like, the. The reaction to it was also completely over the top. Like, we had a lot of people who were just, like, coming at us in the podcast world. And in retrospect, I was just like, why did that happen? And it wasn't like it was a situation where people reaching out to us behind the scenes, like, hey, maybe you should do this differently, or like, hey, correct this. It was just like. It was like. It felt like they were waiting to kind of like, jump on us. Was that your perception?

[B]

That was my perception.

[A]

Yeah. That was my perception, too. It was like, you know, aha. Like, we got them now. And it was like, I don't know what the heck. I think we've pissed off a lot of people over time, so they're, you know, they're just gonna always be ready to.

[B]

Yeah. Like us or hate us. One thing that I think is clear is that if we think something is important to say, we say it. We don't hide what we believe. We're not afraid to say things that aren't. We're not afraid to say things that are controversial or that other people may disagree with. That was true in 2021, and that's true in 2025. Certainly in our coverage of the Temmachin Kinzu case. We do our work, we do our research, we come to conclusions, and we share them, regardless of what others may think.

[A]

And you know what? People can disagree or not like us for that, and I understand that, but. And I could understand seeing us as obnoxious, but I guess I'm just kind of like, whatever. I mean, we gotta. We gotta kind of keep it real over here. And. And. And I would just say that you know, again, I don't feel like we handled the Ron Logan thing perfectly. I think the backlash to that was largely bad faith. I mean, that was. I mean, there was, you know, there were some conversations we had that I was like, oh, yeah, I think we, we definitely could have done this better. But then there was a lot of stuff that was just like, totally over the top in regards to what happened. And, you know, it wasn't like a situation where, you know, I don't know. I mean, I still don't know where that came out of.

[B]

It was very upsetting. It's very upsetting to suddenly have what seems like the whole world turn against you, including people who you regarded as colleagues and friends. And that was the first time it happened to us, not the last. At this point, it's old news.

[A]

At this point, we don't care.

[B]

But yeah, it was very, very upsetting at the moment.

[A]

First time it happens is upsetting. And then the second time you're just like, whatever. Like that's just podcasting for you. Yeah, it just felt like a lot of people had tweets ready to go for that. But yeah, so we, we did that and then Ron Logan and that. I think that was kind of a wake up call into, like, we need to be careful about, you know, how we frame stuff in addition to. Right. Like, you know, you want to get the information out there, but if you're getting information out there and everyone is running articles that is like, you know, the sinister neighbor who had all this, you know, like, then, then, you know, then you want to be able to shape the story in a way that's accurate, but also not leaving room for people to just sensationalize things. And that was the lesson, I think, for us in that whole situation.

[B]

Speaking of being careful, Ms. Kane, I believe it was around this time that we actually started to get some sources. And when you have sources, by which I mean human beings, you have to be very careful and protective of them.

[A]

Yeah. This was perhaps the most stressful thing about this entire case is that we had people who were risking some real problems in their lives to talk to us and give us information. And that is something I will be forever, eternally grateful for and respect the heck out of those people who did that because it. There was nothing in it for them and it. It meant everything to us. So I get, like, emotional thinking about it. It just, it. Those people. I, you know, I would, I would like, we. We would always try to be as careful as possible to avoid.

[B]

Yes. Because it's Very important they put their trust in you. You don't want them to come to any sort of harm or consequences because of a slip up you made. And so we always try to be extraordinarily careful to protect the identity of those sources. We continue to do so. I mean, there were times when people from the Indiana State Police tried to figure out our sources.

[A]

They did, they did. That was the most stressful. Full time. That was horrible there. You know, it was the kind of classic trick of like, give everyone a different color or day of the week and see what leaks. Right. And so we were, oh my gosh, that was so. That was stressful. But I underst, but I respect ISP for doing it in the sense that I, I think they wanted to stop leaks. I think that shows how serious they were about stopping leagues when it comes to isp. People have, again, had all sorts of speculations about our relationship with them and oh, they're leaking to us. ISP was not leaking to us. ISP was trying to figure out who was leaking to us and going after us, you know, like going after basically our, you know, sources in that sense. And so I, I think, I think that's something that's worth noting. They were, they were not. That was an organization that you were not going to get anything out of. It was an organization that we would have contact with because we would try to like, let people know, hey, we're gonna do this or we, we're gonna report on this. But it was not a situation where it was a two way street. It was a one way street. You know, us going to them and them being like kind of buzz off in a nice way.

[B]

We wanted to bring public information about the case, but the last thing we wanted to do would be to report something that would make it more challenging or impossible for the police to end up actually solving the case. You know, if, if we reported something that you don't want to mess up the investigation.

[A]

And, and so to be clear, it's not like they were approving of stuff that we were reporting, but we wanted to give people an opportunity to be like, oh, if you report that this case is going to, you know, go down in flames. Because again, I think the, the attitude they took towards us was largely, hey, we appreciate you guys, but like, you know, we'd prefer it if everyone would just shut up. Which was fair. Knowing, knowing now what I know about the investigation, now that we've done the book, I completely, I understand where they were coming from. And it wasn't like they were mean or unpleasant or anything like that. It was just more of, like, I just, you know, I got. You got the sense that, like, yeah, like, the media coverage has been, you know, good for continuing to raise awareness, but at the same time, we don't, you know, what we were doing was a lot more granular. And I, I don't know if that was always something that was seen as, like, a good thing from their perspective, so. And again, like, that's a, that's, that's an area where we might disagree, but I understand where they're coming from. But, yeah, they, they did not figure out our sources. I don't know if they, like, just gave up at some point, but I think. But again, we were, we were trying to be careful. We weren't just trying to report anything because we also, I mean, there were ongoing investigations. Right. And you don't want to report something that, like, it's going to get someone from law enforcement heard and like, you know, like, like, if you, like, the instance would be like, oh, they're going to arrest this guy, and then that guy goes and gets a gun. Right? Like, that's. You don't want to be in this. You don't want to put people in a dangerous situation.

[B]

And so not just ISP gave us stress about sources. There were instances. There was at least one instance. And I'm going to try to choose my words very carefully.

[A]

No, what this.

[B]

There was. There was an instance where we had. We were talking to multiple members of a particular family, and they didn't know we were the. They didn't know that the other member of the family was talking to us.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that was wild. That was stressful. Yeah. This, this whole thing, you know, it just. I don't know. We've gotten really good at compartmentalizing, I guess I was already pretty good at compartmentalizing, but a lot of compartmentalizing going on here because you have to. And you don't want to betray anyone's trust, but you also don't want to, you know, like, it's. The whole thing was just pretty nutty. You know, there were, there were, there were things that. So we were talking about the Kagan Klein thing. You know, we, we went into depth on that. That was something I feel like a lot of people didn't understand because I think being a podcast people put you at the sort of kids table at Thanksgiving with the other podcasts and YouTube and like, Reddit commentators. And there can be good people in that group who are doing more, you know, responsible Commentary or even straight up journalism. But I think, like, people were applying the lens of like, oh, well, this YouTuber is always talking about Ron Logan and that's who he thinks did it. And he's always, you know, yelling about that. So murder sheet reporting a lot on Kegan Klein and his father, Tony Klein means that that's what they're arguing for. And I, I understand kind of thinking that if you don't know how anything about how journalism works, but at the same time, like, our view was always that we're reporting on what we know the investigators are working on and that's it. We know that they're doing a lot of work on this, so we're going to report on that. We're not going to just randomly start reporting on like, Garrett Kurtz if there's like no indication that there's any interest there. So, like, I think, I don't know, I just. It became very odd to me because people would be like, well, you guys just wanted to be the Kleins. I don't care. I want, as a human being, I always wanted the case to be solved and for there to be answers for the family. Closure is a myth, in my opinion. But answers, who did this? But we didn't, I didn't care, like, who is it going to be? But we just were going to report on the people that the investigators were investigating. So I don't know, like, I was always frustrating because even well meaning people would be like, oh, but you guys think it's this. And it's like, I think there's a good case here in the sense that, like, I can understand why they're investigating him, but everything I've heard, I don't know if there's enough for an arrest, you know, and I think at the time, there were times in there, there were times in this reporting process where I probably was more like, wow, there really may be something there. But then there would be stuff that would drive, drive me back. So I would kind of go back. I mean, I don't know how you felt about it, but I would kind of go back and forth where I'd be like, all right, Kagan Klein was talking to Libby. That's a big deal. But also, he doesn't look at all like bridge guy. He doesn't really sound like bridge guy, in my opinion. And why wouldn't they be able to put him there in some concrete way? Why is this still kind of dragging out? And the same with his father, Tony Klein. Tony Klein has a very high pitched, almost womanly voice. And he didn't sound like bridge guy to me at all. And it was a situation where it was like, again, he has this history of violence. That's very interesting, but where's the digital trail for him and what's going on? So, like, there would be times where I'd be more of, like, maybe they're onto something, and maybe this is going to be it. But I was never so much in that camp where I was like, oh, my gosh, it's this or bust. It was just more of like. I guess I was just more of like, as far as suspects go, this is very interesting, and they're really going to get into it, and that's what they should be doing. But it was never in the sense of like. And that's very important to me that these guys end up being the ones getting arrested for it, because I just. I didn't care. What about. What about you?

[B]

What frustrated me, and I'll talk a little bit more about the river search in a minute, but what frustrated me was when things like the river search came up when we reported that the ISP was conducting a search of the Wabash river in connection to the Delphi murder investigation. And people, even people who were friendly to us and enjoyed the show, would come up and say, oh, do you really think this search of the river is connected to the Delphi murders? I mean, what do you think? Do you think we just, like, drove by, saw a police officer in the river, and they went, golly, this must be about Delphi. Let's put that out there. No, we weren't reporting our hunches on the show. When we would go and say, this search is happening. This search is happening because it is connected to the Delphi murders, It is because we knew that to be a fact, and we knew that from multiple sources. And I think a lot of people thought we were just basically reporting hunches.

[A]

Because that's what everyone. I mean, not. Not everyone, but that's what a lot of other people were doing. And I think I understand why people would be like, oh, you're a podcaster. You're in the same category as everyone who's doing that. Instead of, like, I think people would. If. If we founded a newspaper, I think people would have had a different reaction to some of our reporting because the medium would be different and the perception would be different. People at a newspaper, people at a TV station, people at a corporate news, you know, some sort of larger conglomerate, they are viewed as the adults in the room. And that's understandable given the absolute state of true crime podcasting. But I feel like what we were doing in terms of practices behind the scene was much more akin to that than, say, someone who's just kind of giving their opinion. And listen, I'm not denigrating someone who's giving their opinion. If you're doing that in a responsible way on YouTube or podcasting, that's great. You know, everyone, maybe you have some interesting insights, but it's different. We would not just be reporting, hey, this is Delphi related. Unless we were absolutely sure. Because if we were wrong, we would be completely humiliated later on and people would throw it in our faces for the rest of our lives. So when we report something like that on a show, when we're going on a limb, we have to be certain about it to protect ourselves, our own credibility, to, you know, just to protect everything. So we knew, and it was funny where people would be like, yeah, but that probably it was just a training exercise, really. And we'd be like, no, it wasn't. And they're like, are you sure? Yes. Well, I don't know. It's like, I. I understand the skepticism, I do. But we really. We weren't just saying stuff like that. We would, you know, we would know like that. Yeah, because that would be, I don't know, like. Right. Like, I think it's just like, other people say, like, here's the thing. In Delphi especially, you'd have like, true crime swine 69 being like, I know for a fact that, like, you know, a guy in a motorcycle was racing around that day. And then they'd be like, that would be debunked. Or like, it would turn out not to be true. And then they just move on and say the next thing. Oh, they're black helicopter sighting into the sky over Delphi that day. And like, you know, like, they're just. And there was never any accountability, right? So people would just say stuff and then that would get forgotten. And then for some reason, they would retain their audience instead of having their audience be like, bye. And. And I mean, I mean, usually a pretty small audience, though, because they're talking mostly to other people who are conspiracy theorists. But we took a different approach with it. We were just. We weren't going to. If we were going to speculate on something, we would try to say, hey, we're speculating here. And if we were going to report on something, we would try to say, we know this to be true. We, we. There's rarely stuff we do on the show that if we're going to go out on a limb, like, I mean, we're just gonna. We're gonna be sure of that because we don't want the limb to break from under us.

[B]

And I wanna talk a little bit more about that river search because as we were preparing for this episode, I told you this was a moment that really stood out to me in my memory. So we got a tip that the ISP was conducting a search of the Wabash river in the Peru area connected to the Delphi case. And I remember we drove immediately up to Peru and there is a pedestrian bridge over the Wabash. And we walked across that bridge and that gave us this eagle eye view of this search with all of these officers searching the river. And I remember you and I were standing there on this otherwise empty bridge watching this search. And I was just thinking that the whole world would want to be here if they knew about this search. And once we break this news, it's going to get a lot of attention and a big chunk of the world will come here to watch this. And I remember a couple of the people conducting the search kind of turning and looking at us. And I thought they too were probably thinking, well, these guys know about it now, so soon, everybody's going to know about it now. And that was just an odd moment for me. And I do remember a couple of weeks after that, it was an open house.

[A]

Oh, my God, we are so awkward.

[B]

It was an open house. The Indiana State Police post in Lafayette.

[A]

I still feel bad about this, by the way. Not the river search, but the open house.

[B]

And we went to this open house where you get to meet different branches of the Indiana State Police. And the diving team studiously avoided us.

[A]

Every time we went over to their table, they were gone. I don't blame them. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure they found us really obnoxious. We were just trying to get information. So, I mean, we're trying to do our jobs, but I imagine they were just like, oh, these murder sheet people. So, yeah, that was. I remember that. That was so awkward.

[B]

You want to talk about threats?

[A]

Oh, yeah. So, huh. You know, over the years we kind of mentioned some of this with the sort of Tony Kagan Klein discussion. But you had people in this case that were very territorial. And that was something we were very, again, naive about getting into it because we were truly. This makes us sound like little Pollyannas, but we were truly like, we're going to try to report on the case in a respectful and ethical way and raise more awareness of the information and try to get some answers that can be answered responsibly in public. And everyone's gonna. Even if they don't like it, maybe they'll. You know, they'll appreciate what we're trying to do or, you know, or. Or ignore us if they don't like it. And, you know. No, it was sort of. You know, if you've ever seen that episode of Community with the different timelines, and you have Troy coming in with the pizza, and everything's on fire inside, and he's, like, shocked. That was. We're Troy in that situation. Like, that was. You know, it was just a. It was a mess. It was, like, just online wars between people and, you know, and it got worse over time. I mean, I actually think it was probably a little bit better in the beginning, and it just got increasingly wild because it was like. It was almost like Thunderdome. And, like, you're. You know, you're kind of like the Hunger Games. Like, the. The most outlandish and sort of hardened and sort of kind of, you know, just nutty people were the ones who would stay in the game. And then there was us, you know, like, we're. We're. We're not. We're not here. We're not here to play the Hunger Games. We're just, like, hiding behind a tree right now, like, and trying to do our work. We're not trying to fight people. But, like, I don't know. It was just a really wild environment. And again, not everyone was like that. I want to be clear. Most people who became very interested in this case online were nice, normal people who wanted to get answers, and they wanted to know what happened to Abby and Libby. So when we talk about, like, people being kind of wild online, I don't want anyone to feel like we're talking about, like, everybody. It's really a very small minority, in my opinion, but it's a very loud and very aggressive minority. And when you report stuff they don't like, they will threaten you. We got death threats. We got, like, threat. Like, someone posted our house on a discord. I mean, it was nuts. And, you know, in the beginning, it was really scary. We would be really freaked out. We would be like, someone's gonna come kill us. And then over time, we were like, whatever. You just get burned out.

[B]

We still get threats. We still get threats.

[A]

We do get threats, right? We got. We got a threat the other day. Like, the other day, someone's gonna Come and, I guess, beat us up or. I don't know, it's just like. It's like, I don't know, like someone's.

[B]

Gonna come to a book signing and beat Anya up.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They're not tough enough to take Kevin, so they're gonna try to take me out. And it's like, yeah, you do that. Have fun, you know, put my book signing on the news. Sell some more copies. No, I mean, but seriously, it's like. It's so juvenile. It's. But it's like. But it's like. It's these, like, pathetic losers, and inevitably you look them up and they're, like, in the middle of a divorce, or they're, like, in the middle of a bankruptcy, or they're in the middle of some sort obvious personal crisis, judging by their social media. And it's like, you know what? You should be focusing on getting help for yourself in whatever you're going through and not trying to fight people online, because that's just stupid. It's a waste of your time.

[B]

Yeah. And the sad thing is, is that oftentimes, I'll be blunt. Oftentimes, the threats and things and the harassment, it works because a lot of sensible people who might come into this space and add something of real value, they see the threats and harassment that people like us get, and then they stay out of the space. And that means there's just more ground for the cranks and nuts to have and to occupy.

[A]

Yeah. You have to punch the bully back, in my opinion. You can't let them get to you. And if they're behaving in ways that are abhorrent, you have to say something and stand up to them.

[B]

That's something else about Anya and I that I think both of us have in common, is that we don't like giving into bullies.

[A]

We don't like bullies. Yeah.

[B]

And so anytime someone does something like that, that to us, it just makes us more resolved than ever before to stay in this. In the space.

[A]

It's funny. Yeah. It's like just a lot of these people just, you know, from the beginning, were incredibly. Just threatening Hostile Bazaar. And I think what they were reacting to, it was like, you know, throwing the windows open on vampires and the lights coming in and hitting them. And it's like, you know, I think the. The equivalent of that is this case was their play, you know, was their playpen. It was their playground. They were going to play in the sandbox and make all sorts of castles in the sand with their Stupid ideas and theories and not knowing how anything works, and everything's a conspiracy, and Carroll county is the worst place in the world, and all the people in Delphi are evil and corrupt and blah, blah, blah. And when we're reporting facts that completely counteract that, they were going to be very upset, you know, and it's not just us. I've talked with journalists who've covered this from mainstream outlets, and they're. They're. They're. They were in the same boat. Maybe they weren't going after them to the extent they were going after us, because, again, I think they saw us as more of, like, reachable or more of a peer because we have a new media outlet. But. But even the traditional outlets, you know, you. They'd report something these people wouldn't like, and they'd be screaming at them in the comments and sending them DMS about how they're going to destroy them. So it wasn't just us that were getting these threats, and it wasn't just because I. I mean, you know, we. We might have been more of a lightning rod because we were covering it more and because, again, we were podcasts, but I think there were other people dealing with that, too, and their reaction was the same as us, like, baffled, like, why are you screaming and having a hissy fit? Because I'm reporting backs. Like, that seems more like a you problem, and maybe you should seek help. I think a lot of people sought to work out their anger on this case. Their anger at the world, their anger at their own sad, shoddy lives. And freaking out about something that's happening in a state that they don't even live in, or a community they don't even live in is a way to distract themselves from the pain of their existence. That sounds very over the top, but I really do think that's what's going on here. For a lot of people. It's like my life is falling apart. But you know what? When I log on to my, like, you know, dozen alt accounts, I'm a crusader for truth, and that gives my life meaning. And it's like, you know, maybe get a job that's fulfilling. Maybe volunteer at your local animal rescue. Maybe do anything else. This isn't like, impre. It's not really impressing anybody, and it's not really working out for anybody. So I. I don't know. It's just. It's embarrassing. I. It. You know, in some ways, this case has really lowered my view of humanity. Well, the best part, though, are the people who, you Know, to me, like, it's interesting and it's really not a political thing. Like, you see people from all walks of life who kind of get sucked into this. I think it's more about personality rather than politics. But when people are like, making it some sort of like, quest for freedom or like, I'm a freedom fighter, you know, I believe in the, you know, like all this stuff and it's like, yeah, okay, like cosplaying or then the. On the other side, that's more of the kind of right wing side. On the left wing side, it's more of like, let me use the language of social justice in order to justify my terrible and bizarre and often like deeply sexist behavior. And it's just funny. Like on both sides, you're kind of just like, wow, you know, like kind of any. You're going to use any weapon you can, even like some of this kind of like ideological nonsense in order to justify what's really just antisocial behavior online. So that's my thought.

[B]

Here's an interesting question, Ms. Kane. When behind the scenes, did the two of you, the murder she couple, when did you guys disagree?

[A]

I don't know if we can say. Well, there were a lot of times it was that. I mean, and I think people might be surprised that I feel like I was often advocating for a more cautious approach than you were.

[B]

Yeah, that's probably true.

[A]

You know, in terms of our reporting, I'd be like, I don't know if we should run this. Maybe we shouldn't run this. And you'd be like, no, let's run it, let's do it, let's do it. And I'd be like, no. So I think that often was. And again, people see me as the hothead because of my personality and how I come across on the show. And they see you as the kind of, you know, Mr. Mr. Smooth, Mr. Cool. And there's an element of that to our personalities. But in terms of our approaches, sometimes it could be a little bit different and I would be a lot more conservative and risk averse and you would be a little bit less risk averse. But usually we would be able to come to either some sort of compromise or, or do my way of thinking, because the reason for that, not because I'm like taking over, but because you can always release something later. You can't take something back once you've released it.

[B]

In terms of Richard Allen's guilt or innocence, I've been candid. I think that I didn't really fully understand the probable cause affidavit and how damning that was until trial. So to me, when I read that probable cause affidavit after it was released, I wasn't overly impressed. I didn't think this was a slam dunk case. I was wrong. I didn't understand it. That's on me. And so I remember that I was. In terms of his innocence or guilt, I was right on the line as to whether or not he would be convicted for a while.

[A]

Same I was, too.

[B]

And so at times we were on different sides of that line where I would think, well, he's probably going to be acquitted. And Anya would think, no, he's probably going to be convicted. And then she would think he'd be acquitted. And I would think he would be convicted.

[A]

Yeah, I would say that. And I was in the same place with you at the beginning. I didn't.

[B]

I think in fairness to you, I think in fairness to you, I think you understood the probable cause affidavit better than I did.

[A]

Not immediately. I think later on reading it a bunch of times, I was starting to be like, oh, okay, it really. I. I was in the same place as you was in the beginning. And then I think I started sliding more of towards, you know, and then certainly as things were happening, I was sliding more towards he's going to be convicted. Now, keep in mind, on the show, we made a decision, first thing, that we were not going to say we thought he was guilty or we thought he was innocent. Our reasoning for that, at least until whatever the verdict was, our reasoning for that was simply that we haven't had a trial yet. Like, what are we, like, you know, at trial, we could come in completely convinced of his guild, and at trial, the defense could blow us away. And we'd say, well, reasonable doubt, or actually, we think he's factually innocent now, or vice versa. We could come in thinking he's innocent, and then the state does an amazing job. So we didn't want to get ahead of our skis. We wanted. We kind of tried to keep it more towards evaluating the performances of the attorneys and evaluating what we felt was strong evidence against him or weak evidence against him. And so as time built up, you probably heard us probably sounding more like, well, this is a pretty hefty case against him. And we did think that. And we were to. We're certainly starting to, like, say, this is, you know, this is going to be difficult for this guy to get out of. But again, in the back of our minds, no matter how strong we felt the case was, we kind of knew that anything can happen at trial. And even though at that point we were really not confident in the performance of these attorneys on the defense side, we were still like, you know, maybe they're going to pull out the old razzle dazzle and just wow everybody.

[B]

Let me talk about that. As I say, I did not fully understand the pca, which was my failure in the summer, especially leading up to the trial. When I saw the performance of the defense attorneys, they were doing things like saying, oh, Judge Gull is a big meanie because she doesn't call us ding dongs. Things like that didn't really inspire me with a lot of confidence in their abilities. And certainly I recall us beginning to talk on the show that if there's listeners out there who are on the side of Richard Allen, they should be genuinely concerned about the quality of representation he is getting. And I think at the time there were some people who were on the side of Richard Allen who heard us say that and thought we were biased.

[A]

Don't be mean to the defense daddies.

[B]

But now I see a lot of those same people who accused us of bias for criticizing them. Now that the transcripts are out, they're also criticizing these attorneys.

[A]

Cranks. Welcome to the murder sheet team.

[B]

So as that was going on, I began in the summer before the trial to really think this is going to be a conviction. But at the same time there's this great old baseball pitcher, Sandy Koufax. And it occurred to me that if these defense attorneys go into this trial and they're like Sandy Koufax and they pitch the legal equivalent of a perfect game, then they could possibly pull an acquittal out of the hat.

[A]

I never thought they could pull an acquittal out of the hat.

[B]

But when I saw their performance at the three day hearing in July and August of 2024, when I saw how completely they failed at that hearing, that's when I knew beyond all shadow of a doubt he's going to be convicted.

[A]

I, I, I thought that they, Sandy Kofax it, they might get a mistrial, it might get to one of the jurors, maybe two. You know, I, I, I was just never, I never at certain, at a certain point I was like, no, he, there's too much against this guy. He's, he's, he's doomed basically. I mean, he's doomed by his own words. I, I would, this is the situation though, again, like mistrial though. I mean that was, that would have been a big win for the defense, I think a mistrial. I, I, you know, I do want to say it was interesting. People would kind of pick up, I think, a little bit that I was a little bit leaning more towards, like. I don't want to say guilt, but more of like, yeah, or maybe guilt. Or maybe like, oh, I think this is a pretty big case against him. And you were maybe more on the fence. I always just thought it was interesting with some of the cranks. They'd be like, anya's poisoning Kevin. Like, like, she, she. She won't let him talk about the. How he's being railroaded. It was like, what? Like, oh, my gosh. Generally, I thought we tried to just be. Keep, you know, try to keep it as neutral as we felt comfortable doing, but I just thought that was funny that people were like, Anya's Lady Macbeth and she's leading Kevin down a. I don't know, like, so some. You saw that, too.

[B]

Pretty insightful listeners.

[A]

Ah, okay. So now you're throwing me under the bus. Yeah. I remember people being like, we have to save Kevin from Anya. I was like, no, I don't know. I. Like, it just seemed like. It just seemed like there was a lot of. I mean, I'm going to tell you this, too. There was stuff that happened behind the scenes that made me feel the defense was just, first of all, certainly leaking like crazy. And second of all, just being very underhanded. People on the defense side were trying to pitch us stories that were negative on Judge Gull well before there was any sort of obvious drama between them. And then we dig into what they were saying, and it wouldn't match the facts of what actually happened. And that was something that really raised red flags for me because it was like, why are you guys focused on this? This seems kind of weird. Like, I. I felt there were certain things that happened that made me feel like, you know, I. I mean, there was just stuff that happened that I was just like, these people are not super honest and they're not really above board.

[B]

And you mentioned leaks. What about the leak? How did that make us feel? This is the leak of crime scene photographs which we received in the early morning hours one day in October of, I think, 23.

[A]

Was that, like, October 5th? I don't remember the exact day, but yeah, it was, it was. It was awful. It was an awful situation. It was something where we didn't know. There's no, like, you know, like, you can, like, look up. Okay. When. When is stuff on the record? When stuff off the record, whatever. But, like, you. Like, there's no Columbia Journalism Review article about what to do when somebody passes you on leaked crime scene photos of dead children. First of all, like, on an emotional level, seeing them, like, that was really, really upsetting. Because you come to care about these kids even though you never met them and even though they're gone, that was really upsetting. I've never gotten the images out of my head. Sometimes I have trouble sleeping. Like, so. And that's partly because of this and partly because of the trial and seeing those photos. It was really upsetting. It was really bad. It was so from the emotional standpoint, it was that. And it was the horror of, like, oh, my God, if these get out there, it's gonna haunt these families for life. And they could always end up seeing them, even if they don't want to. So there was a panic. It was really like a kind of like, we need to try to stop this. And we spent, like, I felt, like, weeks trying to get a sense from people of who had them and encouraging them to delete them. And then we learned that, like, everyone had already gotten them and was already passing them around, and people are just BSing us. That was really disappointing. Not really altogether that surprising. But I guess I thought we could kind of get everyone to sort of band together and do the right thing on this, regardless of their opinions on the case, regardless of, you know, where they, you know, who liked whom. I just thought we could kind of have a kind of all come together moment. And that did not happen. We were trying to be like the House Majority Whip behind the scenes and being like, okay, just delete them. Like, we don't need to, you know, and. And people didn't. And they just traded them around and, you know, still disgusts me. And I lost a lot of respect for a lot of people during that process. And people got mad at us. Cause they felt like we were being, you know, the hall monitor. And it's like, you know, you think you're better than me because you're not sharing these. Yes, I do. I do think I'm better than you because I'm not sharing these. Because these are pictures of dead freaking children that should have never gotten out there. Yeah, I do. I think I'm better than anybody who shares that stuff. Like, I think anybody who's not doing that is better than anyone who is. I'm like. I mean, like, why. Why pretend, you know, that's. That's morally wrong. It's disgusting, you know, and seeing idiots to this day go around and be like, let's try to make AI versions. So it's like, what. Like, why? Like, you just feel like it makes you feel good to. To put this out there. Like, what's wrong with you? Like, what happened to you in your life where you think this is okay. Disgusting. Like, I just. I. The level of anger and disgust that I still feel over that situation is very. It's very great. I guess I will just say that. And from a practical side of things, it was terrible being put in a position where we were just sort of like, now what do we do? And we try to do the right thing. But, you know, I mean, we. We went to police. We went to the defense. The defense made it clear they didn't give a flying whatever about this. They, you know, they played games. They, you know, you emailed them twice, being like, I'm not sure if you're understanding this, but this is really bad. And they were just like, yeah, but it was bullies. Yeah. No, it wasn't. Their reaction should have been a huge red flag to us. It wasn't. At the time, we didn't know who it was coming from. But in retrospect. In retrospect, they knew. In my opinion, in my opinion, the official story about the leak is nonsense. And in my opinion, in my opinion, this defense team bears moral responsibility for the leak. In my opinion, this was not an accident. In my opinion, this led to a man dying. And that. That is on the hands of this defense team. That is. That is. That. That is their doing. And it's not anybody else's fault. It's their fault that this happened, that this tra. That this compounded a tragedy. And for the families of the girls and then for another family that. Where a person was just looped into this mess and then made it. Made a horrible decision. It just. I don't know how they live with themselves. I guess I just don't. I don't. I don't. I don't know. It was. I mean, I don't know. Do you. I mean, what do you think?

[B]

Yeah, it was awful.

[A]

What do you think about. I mean, do you remember?

[B]

I have some. My mind is a bizarre thing, so I'm not good with visuals. It takes me a while to lock in visual images. Like, even after I met you, it took me a while to be able to get a mental image of what I was.

[A]

Remember, I wore hoop earrings once, and you were like, who are you?

[B]

So because of that, I don't have the issue that you have. And other people We've talked to have that. I don't see these pictures in my mind's eye. I'd have to really concentrate to try to remember them, which I'm not interested in doing. So I guess that's a blessing for me.

[A]

Yeah, you're lucky. I mean, I said some harsh things with the defense team right now, with the League. Where do you stand on some of that? Do you think that there's more to it? Do you think that this was on purpose?

[B]

I find it interesting that in recent days, an appellate attorney with a relationship to the defense team tweeted out that it would be a good idea to get, like, AI versions of these photos out there so you wouldn't be breaking the court's seal on them. So I think it is interesting that there seems to be a sentiment on that side of the fence that getting pictures of the crime scene out there would be helpful to Richard Allen. And I'll leave it at that.

[A]

Which I'll just say this. It's not. It's not at all. These people are freaking delusional. Like, I just. I can't underscore how. How much they don't understand how to read a room, how much they don't understand the fundamental case, and how much they don't understand how little of value their own interpretations of this crime scene are. The defense had every opportunity to. To call some. Someone to counteract what Major Pat Cicero was saying. He, of course, was the state's primary. One of the primary crime scene analysts. He wasn't there at the time, but he was able to recreate things and interpret things. They could have called someone to do battle with him, and they didn't, because they can't. Because they don't have any ability to counteract them, and because they can't or they can't get an expert to say what they want to say. So I don't give a. I don't care about what some YouTuber, you know, inter. How they see. Oh, this sticks. Or how they see, or, you know, how some random woman on Facebook sees it, or how some random appellate attorney, you know, sees this. I just. That who cares what you think? Like, there's such a. Like, the gall of it. It just makes me sick. And for. For me, like, using the images of dead children as playthings is sick. Like, everyone involved should be, you know, begging for forgiveness over this. I really. I really feel like, again, I really felt that this was a line people wouldn't cross. Again, naive. We were worried people would cross it. But I felt like most people wouldn't, and that was just totally not true. It's just everybody, like, wants to sit around their parlor with a pipe like Sherlock Holmes and a pine about, oh, here's what my interpretation is. Guess what? No one cares about your interpretation. You know, like, you. You have no expertise in this. So the fact that these leaked so people can just basically feel smart and put out opinions online, there's something really insulting about that too, I guess. Freaking true crime industrial complex at work just, you know, whirring out true crime for the sake of true crime.

[B]

You talk about how upsetting it was to see the pictures of the trial. One day you had to leave.

[A]

I left. Yes, I did. Just let. Leave. I. That was. Yeah, that was a rough day. I think it was crime scene pictures, and I just kind of had a panic attack, I think, and left in the hallway. I was just like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. I can't. I. I was just like, I. I'm sitting in the courtroom seeing this stuff, surrounded by people whose relatives were murdered. Like, the. The girls, families. Like, that's. I'm looking at a. I'm looking at the back of the head of a woman who's looking up at the image of her baby dead. It was just like. I don't know, just like the. It was like a wave. Like, I was just like. I was like, okay. And then, like, the. The horror of all that just washed. It was like a tsunami just washed over me. And I felt like I just needed to get out of there. Like, I couldn't breathe. I was like. I feel like I was hype. Like, I just. I just, like. I just, like, power walked. It was embarrassing. Other reporters saw me and they were like, Afterwards, were very nice about it. They're like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, but it was. I just. I don't know, I felt bad because I felt. I was, like, leaving you, and I felt really bad about that. We were very tired at that time. I think that was before we got line sitters, or at least maybe that hadn't kicked in yet. So I just went into our car and I think fell asleep in the backseat.

[B]

Didn't some of the other reporters come and be encouraging to you?

[A]

They. Later on, yeah, they. They kind of were like, hey, we heard you freaked out. But they were very nice about it. Super nice. Yeah, Yeah. I went. I went in our car, fell asleep. I think I may be getting my dates wrong, so I apologize. I remember at one point, I Sat up and like, Bob Motto was just, like, walking right past our car. And I was just like, get away. What is going on? But, yeah, it was bad. I don't know. I kind of still feel embarrassed about it, and I feel like everybody else was able to handle it. Why wasn't I? I don't know.

[B]

Like, you shouldn't be embarrassed.

[A]

I am embarrassed. It's like, what the hell's wrong with me? Just like. I don't know. It was rough. Seeing those things was rough. I can't. I can't imagine what those families were feeling. I can't imagine, like, that. I can't imagine what the pain they were going through. Seeing some of that stuff was bad. You know, we. I didn't know the girls. You know, I didn't know them in. In real life or anything. I mean, these people love these girls. This was their families. And seeing that, I just can't even imagine. It just was awful. You know, you could. You could see a lot of it having an impact, I think, on the jury. You could see a lot of it having an impact even on people, like, in the press. And people are just there. I mean, it was just. It was hard. It was hard to look at. It was hard. And I still. I still see some of that, you know, Like, I could still see, like, I. It's burned into my mind, I think. So, you know, I would just. My hearts go out to them. My heart. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to make it all about me getting upset or whatever. I mean, we're just talking about our own experiences, obviously, but, like, I can't imagine what even. Just, like, the attorneys went through, like, just looking at this stuff so often, it's just. I don't know. What he did to them was just not human. It just. Just evil. Evil like that. What. What happened in that forest clearing was evil. It's one thing to say that or it's one thing to say, oh, he killed two kids. It's one thing to see what he did to them.

[B]

There were times we stopped. We almost decided to stop covering the trial.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Remember when we drove away because it.

[B]

Was so difficult having to get up so early in line, just being mentally and emotionally exhausted and seeing those terrible things. And what kept us there was the fact that there was a lot of people in that courtroom who were lying about what was happening.

[A]

Yeah. It was spite and anger kept us there. Like, we were just like, we can't do this anymore. We're done. We'd Start driving away. And it'd be like, oh, a tweet from this person, and there's, you know, saying they're lying. They're saying that, you know, Tony Liggett's the, you know, king of all evil. And we'd be like, or he did terribly on the stand against Brad Rosie, and be like, that's not what happened. And we just, like, loop back around. Yeah.

[B]

And also, I think there was. There was a realization that, yes, we can turn around and go home and leave this behind us, but there are people in that courtroom, there's family members, there's investigators and others who can't. And the family members certainly will be dealing with the events of that day and this murder for decades to come. There's always gonna be an empty seat at the table. They can't walk away. And it feels to them, we owe the truth.

[A]

Yeah, I felt that, too. Every time we'd start to. I think we, like, almost left, like, three times or something.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

Something like that. And every time we'd be, like, all amped and, like, yeah, we're out of here. We're not, you know, like, we can't cut through this, and it's just not. We're not even able to do anything, really. And then it would be like, I don't know. They can't leave. They're stuck here. It's just gonna. If no one is counteracting any of this and trying to put the truth out there, it's just gonna make it worse. So we have to try. It all felt very futile, though, because it was just the enormity of. It felt like the enormity. It felt like the narrative of just, like, the nonsense was. Was totally crowding everything else out. You know, it just was. It was overwhelming at times, and. And that was people who were acting in bad faith. And then there were also people who I think were acting in good faith. They just didn't really understand the proceedings. Right. I mean, that was. Some people, I think, in traditional media might have been like, oh, I don't, you know, understand the case. And, like, that wasn't. I understood that. Like, I understood where they were coming from. They weren't bad or anything. And it just. It wasn't. It just was. It was bad. And so. Yeah, but then we kept on. It was funny. We were just like, we're leaving. No, I guess not. Like, just turn around and go back. It was. I just remember, like, there were so many. Like, it was so. Like, it all blurs together. There were so many, like, early morning drives to Monticello from Monticello, where we're. We were staying partly in Monticello at one time, I think we're in Lafayette, but then we. I think for most of it, we're in Monticello. We're going from Monticello in the dark to Delphi. Like, I'll never forget that. They're just, like. It just seemed like we were on that road for hours and hours and hours. By the end of it, you know, just this early morning, or we'd get texts from people like, hey, the line's forming. And we'd get up and just go. Like, it was, you know, like, wearing all those, like, long underwear under your clothes is so cold out. I remember in the beginning, I was like, you know, I want to dress nice. It's court, you know, we should be respectful of the proceedings. And then, like, it cuts to me. I look like. I'm like, you know, Mountaineer with, like, all, you know, all these layers, and I look ridiculous. And just. I mean, I feel like we really became feral. Like, people were, like, talking to us, and I just would be like. I feel like zoning out half the time or, like, seeming insane or people be like. I mean, I don't know. It was weird. There was so much weird stuff. I. The one bright spot in this, where we met some really nice people in line. I mean, there were some really cool people we met, and I. You know, if people are like, oh, people were like, tourists just coming up to just look at this. I don't really. As long as people are being respectful, I think that's okay. I don't. I don't really have a. I can understand why people are like, why are they doing that? But I think people have a curiosity. And we met some very nice people.

[B]

And a couple of great dogs. Remember Red?

[A]

Red. Red was like, the celebrity of the line. Red and Ted loved them. Yeah, they. They were great. There were some. Just really nice people. There were some people who I felt like were kind of, like not being super. It was interesting. During the prosecution side of things, I felt like the vibes were better in line. And then as the defense took on there, as they started presenting their case, things got worse and worse and worse. Do you remember that?

[B]

I do.

[A]

There was, like, a shift. It was like, oh, now the crazies are coming in. Like, this is their time to shine. They were going to come in and do their thing. And there was also a more of a kind of collegial atmosphere in the beginning. And Then I think later on, it became more competitive, and there became a real. I use the word brinksmanship, which is like, Kevin's gonna do something, and then I'm gonna do something, and we're gonna kind of go into, like, nuclear war eventually. And that felt like that was going on the line because it was like people just started getting there earlier and earlier, and then they started having people hold spaces for them. At first I was like, there's no way in hell we're doing that. And then eventually I was like, we have to do that. We're losing our minds. One thing about the coverage, I. I can't go back and listen to the trial episodes because I just. I. I think. I don't know what. I don't. I. I just don't want to, but I. I feel like we were probably complaining too much at some point about Judge Gull. Judge Frank Gull. Now, I do want to get into that a little bit, though. But I felt like at some point, we were just, like, doing a primal scream about that. So we, like, applied for press passes, like, several different ways. And I think in retrospect, she just was like, no, because you guys are podcasters, and I don't like you. Like, that was kind of the vibe I got. Or at the very least, I think you're trying to subvert my rules, so I'm gonna, like, smack you down at every turn, which I understand. I understand on a practical level, but it was kind of ridiculous because, you know, we were. We were there for the murder sheet and for the Franklin Daily Journal, and they're a newspaper, and they deserve to have seats, so I felt we should have gotten them. But, you know, like, she had this dude in charge who just didn't know what he was doing, and. And, like, you know, he'd be telling us, like, you know, I told him from the beginning. I was like, listen, if you don't think we're gonna be able to get them, just tell me that. And, like, I won't waste my time. And it just, like. Instead of just being like, you know, yeah, she's totally hates you guys. You're out. It became like, oh, yeah, okay, we accept your application. Actually. Just kidding. It's one hour before the deadline, and now we're not gonna do it. And, like. And it was just so much back and forth. I felt like it was like my villain origin story, you know, I was just gonna start, like, Joker laughing at some point and, like, lose my mind, because it would just be like, we'd think we were in, and then we would be told, like, randomly we're out for some kind of very arbitrary sounding reason. And that sucked. So we were pretty mad about that. And again, we probably complained about it too much, but again, I not try to make excuses, but we were not sleeping and everything was a lot closer to the surface during that time. And in terms of the line. Yeah, I guess. Did you ever have, like, a worry that, like, someone was gonna come, like, harm people in line? Yes. Yeah, I did too. Yeah. I was like, there's a decent chance that we all get shot. Like some nut is just gonna show up and kill us all. I didn't.

[B]

There were fights.

[A]

There were fights. There were fights. There were. I don't. They weren't really like fist fights, though. No, I mean, it was more of, like, some confrontations. At one point, some YouTuber started screaming at me. That was fun. I don't know if I ever talked about that on the show, but, you know, we were getting accused of, like, cutting the line or doing all this stuff, and it was just like I. I snapped something back. And then he started freaking out. You know, he's a very emotional man. But there's that. That. There's an infamous incident where someone grabbed something from me and I got pissed off. I was very shaken by that because I don't really like confrontation. It wasn't really that big of a dramatic deal. But then it was funny because then I think people talked about in the courtroom, and then people were coming up like, did you get in? Like, that's a very over the top way of describing what happened there. I thought the deputies and the law enforcement people who were like, working the trial and sort of, they did a really good job of. Some people got mad at them and they're like, oh, they're mean. I mean, I. I felt they were super. I thought they were super nice. I mean, I thought they were, like, super professional. And we kind of like got to see some of them every day and just sort of say hi. And they were just. I don't know, they kind of added some humanity to the whole thing. I thought. What do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I thought the deputies were great.

[A]

I thought they did a great job. I mean, that was a heck of a thing to organize and it really went smoothly and no one killed each other. So, I mean, that's a huge win.

[B]

I remember being surprised that people we talked to in the media thought after the defense rested, after it was all over, that there was going to be an acquittal.

[A]

I think they were hearing that from the defense. I think a lot of. I think the defense was, like, talking to them throughout. So I think they were kind of. I think they were getting spun a bit. And I think, like, there was an element of, like, I don't think people cover a lot of just humdrum homicide cases anymore. Like, no one's necessarily sending media down to cover just like your average homicide. So that means they're not necessarily, like, they're used to the big bombshell cases or the DNA or the, you know, the. The secret lover comes out and testifies against the accused. Like, they're used to that. And this had more of the hallmarks of kind of your standard homicide of, like, this is. The timeline is very important in this. You know, there is some ballistics evidence, but the timeline is very important. And then analyzing the confessions in a way that what matches the crime scene is also important. So I think. And also, you know, an understanding of mental health and what psychosis is and what it isn't is important. So I felt like ultimately people weren't really equipped to see what was truly important. Would you have conversations with people and they'd be like, oh, it's definitely gonna be an acquittal, right? And you'd be like, no. And they'd be like, what mistrial? I think it's a conviction. What? And then I felt like we were going crazy. I'm like, are we crazy? Like, everyone disagrees with us? Are we nuts? Like, I felt like it was like, no one believes. Like, I mean, I don't know. I think people were kind of. I feel like the CSI effect is in full effect for people in general. And I think that played into some of those opinions.

[B]

You can never totally exclude the possibility of a mistrial, but I felt 100% certain that if there was a verdict in this case, that it would be for conviction. And I remember as soon as we learned there was a verdict, I think we both looked at each other. He's convicted. And while we were waiting for the verdict to be announced, I remember a couple reporters said, oh, what do you think it is? And we said, guilty. And they were, like, shocked.

[A]

They were shocked. I remember we were. We went on one of our, like, our bases. Very nice people. Let us kind of use their house. And it was a house with these wonderful cats. Stuart and Sheldon love them. And, you know, we got a text from a source, you know, verdicts in. At that point, I was like, it's a mistrial. I mean, I like, before the verdict thing, because I Was like, it's been so long. I had totally given. I'm like, we're gonna have to do all this again. We're coming back. It'll kill us, but we're doing it. And. And then verdict. And it's like, he's convicted. That's it. That's it. So we ran over. I remember we're running. Somebody was like smiling and waving us. And we're like, verdicts in. And they're like, everyone's running. And we didn't really try to get in. I think we kind of were like, ooh, can we sneak in? And then we're like, eh, no. And we kind of just stood there outside with everybody. I remember it was really kind of a tense atmosphere as everyone was waiting, but I didn't feel tense. I. We knew we got convicted. We. There was no way he was going to get acquitted by that jury. There was too much evidence against him. We all. We saw what they saw. We heard what they heard. There was just. There was just no way. And. And now that a mistrial was out of the question because they wouldn't have a verdict if there was, you know, if it was a hung jury. We just knew. And it was just interesting seeing kind of some of the shock. And there was a lot of cheering. I think a lot of people there were, you know, certainly convinced of his guilt that when that news came out. But there were some people who were shell shocked. You could tell.

[B]

There were some people who had been listening to coverage from people who I will say were less than scrupulous in their devotion to the truth. And they were left with the impression, oh, it's definitely going to be an acquittal murder cheat's been lying when they said it's been going badly for the defense. And there were people who were shocked, Richard Allen fans who were shocked that he was.

[A]

Richard Allen fans, fans of a child killer. You know, totally normal stuff. One thing that you said that I thought was really insightful, Kevin, was if someone covers a case in a way that leaves the audience confused about the outcome, they did a terrible job.

[B]

Yeah. If you listen to our coverage of the trial, no matter whether you believe Alan was innocent or guilty, you would have an understanding of why the jury reached the verdict.

[A]

It did. Now, caveat, like, I'm not saying, like, if someone came in and covered Delphi once, right. And then just kind of got a vibe and then left, I'm not talking about them because that's. That, that's just a quick in and out, you know, that's not. I'm talking about people who were covering it every day, who were there every day and who were basically just shading things so that it always benefited the defense, even when the defense was not doing a good job job, that those people did not serve their audience well, in my opinion. And listen, they can have their own opinions. They can say, here's what's going on. Personally, this isn't enough for me. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with stating that opinion. But that was not what was going on. What was going on is people were just BSing and they were just, you know, everything was good for the defense even when it truly wasn't. They were just making them out to be doing better than they were. And, and they were making out the prosecution to be doing worse than they were and they were making out the evidence to be weaker than it was. And so that was, that was troubling to see. Again, that kind of motivated us to stick around because we were just like, this isn't honest. This isn't. Again, it's not about opinions. It's not about like, oh, those people who are Richard Allen fans are pro Richard Allen. It was truly like, you're just not accurately representing stuff in a way that's leaving people confused. And then people were shocked when this outcome happened and it's like your time was wasted. You know, look, those audiences time and that. And that annoys me because it's like you should have some respect for the people who are taking the time to tune into you and giving you and giving you that time and attention and I don't know, just like you owe people something, you know, and it, you owe them not to be misled. And again, when people are coming in and covering it once and then bouncing, I don't, I don't really blame them. It's that, you know, you're gonna, you're, they're gonna be getting whatever sources they're getting and then leaving. It's, I'm really talking about people who were supposed to be covering it in depth and we're just kind of, you know, not, I don't know. Do you remember how you felt when the verdict came out?

[B]

I mean, I wasn't surprised. It's just, yeah, if you're watching a movie, you know what the ending is going to be. And by that point, again, I sat through that trial, I heard all the witnesses. I'd listened to the arguments from the prosecution and the defense. There was no doubt in my mind that Richard Allen was guilty and that he would be convicted. So I was satisfied the justice had been done.

[A]

I thought it was a strong case. Going into trial, I'd gone from thinking it was a weak case to an okay case, to a strong. As more stuff came out to a strong case. And then ultimately leaving trial, I felt that the case was actually stronger than I'd even thought. Because seeing the timeline presented with witnesses and with images and with timestamps, so to speak, it just locked him into being bridge guy. It was just, he's locked in there, he's bridge guy. That's it. That's it. Like, there's no breaking out of that. And so for me, the fact that the timeline ended up being so important and being so ironclad ended up being something that made me kind of just. Yeah, like, that's it. I mean, there's just, there's no doubt in my mind he murdered those girls. The fact that people out there are still, you know, they'll watch one docu series that's like completely biased and be like, oh, now I think he's innocent. It's like, no, you got, you gotta look at the evidence, you know.

[B]

Should we talk a little bit about the process of book writing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We are readers. We like true crime books. So we always wanted to do a book on this case. I wish I could tell you we were more methodical and careful about some of these things. I remember at one point we said, well, if we want to do a book, we should get an agent, right? And so on someday. I looked up some random website with agents and I saw there's an agent who was interested in true crime, who had attended Indiana University.

[A]

Go Hoosiers.

[B]

And who was from Westchester County, New York, which is where Anya is from. So he said, gosh, this guy, his name happened to be Gideon Pine, he has a connection to Indiana, he has a connection to Anya's hometown. He's interested in true crime. And so that was my selection process. And I say, hey, Anya, what about this guy?

[A]

I said, he looks great.

[B]

And he turned out he was great. He was great. We contacted him and he agreed to represent us. And he is the one that got the deal for the book for us. He has been wonderful.

[A]

We love Gideon. He's amazing and he's very hard working and a wonderful guy. So he's awesome. And we were very lucky to just kind of be able to pitch him. And he was like, sure. So that, that all worked out really.

[B]

Well, for us, and he didn't pressure us. We signed with him, and then we didn't give him any proposal or any information about the book for, like, what, six months or so.

[A]

There was a lot in flux at that point, so we were just kind of, like, seeing what played out. But then it got rolling, and then he ended up getting us a deal with Pegasus Crime, which is a terrific publisher, independent publisher in New York City. I think it's Pegasus Books. And then Pegasus Crime is kind of the label within that. And, you know, we got, you know, we got rejections from other publishers, but we ended up, I feel like getting a wonderful, wonderful one. So I was incredibly grateful for that. And they've been great to work with, too. And book writing was, was, was difficult because we, you know, we were on a tight timeline, so it kind of disappeared for a while there for a lot of people. And we were also to do the podcast in the meantime, so we were.

[B]

Doing, like, three episodes a week while also spending, what, 12, 13 hours a day writing.

[A]

And it was, but it ended up working out because, actually because of some unscrupulous documentarians, law enforcement kind of shut down because, like, they were getting bombarded by some of these people, and, like, they're giving them all sorts of, like, wacky contracts and whatever, and they, so they stopped talking. But we had already talked to, like, we had, we. Because we were flying with the book stuff, so it ended up working out. We got to talk to some of these people and then write it. But it was, you know, it was like, like we both have a different style, and we tried to blend that together. So that could be difficult, but it was also rewarding. I felt like Kevin's very good at the sort of analysis and the punchy stuff, kind of like, you know, the, the kind of legal commentary. You also can be very funny in your writing. Not a lot of funny stuff in this book, but just the way you describe some people is, is amusing. And I'm more, I don't know, I, I, I'm more all over the place. I don't even know. How would you describe my style?

[B]

Your style is wonderful.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so fake.

[B]

So anything you like in the book, it was written by Anya?

[A]

No, I, not, Not truly not. But yeah, that, I think in a way, like, that was more of a test of our relationship than the trial. Because before trial, you and I made a truce of, like, we were going to be extremely nice and patient with each other because we're both going to be losing Our minds. Because this is going to be a bad situation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I remember one time we got into a fight in trial about some. I don't know. I forget. It was like, something happening on Facebook. And, like, we're like, what do we do? And I was saying one thing, you were saying the other, and we got in this, like, we were furious with each other. Like, ah, we're in a McDonald's. We're in the McDonald's in Monticello. And I remember I'm, like, jabbing the kiosk to order, like, Chicken McNuggets furiously. And then we get a call from a source, talk to them, and then we're like, what were we even fighting about? So we just went back to normal. I think that was the one time where we kind of got mad at each other. I don't even. I. I don't even really remember what that was about, but.

[B]

Well, I do, but we don't need to.

[A]

Oh, I do, too. Okay. Now I do. Well, it didn't matter, but it was one of those just stupid fights where I think we were just both stressed out. Is that fair to say?

[B]

That's fair to say.

[A]

Just remember that. I remember, like, thank you for diffusing things. Source. I think we told them later on. They were like, laughing, but. Yeah, so that. But then in the book, it was harder because it's like. Like, we're not outdoors. We don't. We're not scared someone's going to come up and hit us or shoot us. We're not trying to get the last seat. We're not, you know, doing all this stuff or negotiation, you know, trying to get line sitters. By the way, I want to say this. We'd be remiss not to say this. Those line sitters saved our lives. God bless you guys. Thank you so much for doing that. And that meant the world to us, all the people who held our spot in line. I just want to say thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Like, thank you so much. Just, like, truly made it possible for us to do that work. They were the heroes. You called them the lifesavers. That was accurate. And I just want to say thank you.

[B]

I. I concur. Lifesavers, indeed.

[A]

Lifesavers indeed. God bless you guys, and we'll never forget you. So.

[B]

So what else do you want to cover before we wrap?

[A]

Oh, do you want to talk about how a lot of people, when we asked them if they had any questions, they wanted to say, like, hey, can you guys make a documentary? And God Bless you guys. But I don't know how to do that. And that would be up to somebody else to be interested enough to do that, if that makes sense. That would be beyond our capabilities. There's options. Right. And this people can, like, look into that. But I'm. There's. There's nothing definitive to report on that front. But if you are interested in us doing a documentary shoot, an email to murdersheet gmail.com and then, you know, if it. If it becomes relevant, we can say, hey, a lot of people emailed us about it, so there's interest. So I guess that would be something you could do. Do you want to talk about how we got threatened about the book? Oh, yeah, this is fun.

[B]

This happened months ago.

[A]

Yeah, it did.

[B]

Someone close to Defense Team, someone affiliated. Well, someone wrote our publisher saying, I need to get a copy of the book stat, because I want to read it and then decide whether or not to sue. And the publisher said no. And then. And then someone who was. Was friendly with this person then wrote our publisher, said, hey, I'm going to review this book for a magazine. Send me a copy. And our publisher said no. So, yeah, we've already gotten a legal threat from someone who hasn't even read the book.

[A]

Yeah, it was just trying to scare our publisher.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, we're not going to name this person, but I just will say they probably won't be over the moon with the book at the end of the day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I would also say that. But that was interesting because, you know, you had the initial threat and then like, 30 minutes later. So like, very sophisticated spycraft here. Right. Like, obviously those two people aren't linked. But then what was funny was that this, like, kind of stooge troll person went on social media and admitted that they were trying to get the book for them for this other person. So there is kind of a bit of a coterie of freaks around this, I think, kind of seeing if they can make trouble for us. But it's just embarrassing. I'm sure we'll go into more depth on that eventually in name and shame. But, you know, it's just a note. It's just, like, embarrassing. Like. Like, if you. Maybe you should have acted better if you didn't want to come across badly to people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just actions of consequences. You know, if you're gonna act like a lunatic and then you're, you know, upset about how things are gonna come out, I don't know what to tell you. We verified and checked and have screenshots for every single thing that was published in this book. So I think any legal threats are pretty, yes, facetious.

[B]

What else?

[A]

Somebody had a great question for us in the comments. They wanted to know some creators leaned into conspiracy. How much of that do you perceive as genuine? They really think there is rampant corruption in law enforcement and versus a desire to generate clicks. Excellent question. What do you think?

[B]

I can't. This is probably for the better. I can't peer into the souls of these YouTube creators who do that. So it's difficult for me to answer that. I will note that this is always stuck in my mind one day in line, and you know who I'm talking. We were talking with someone who was doing extensive YouTube coverage of the case. And the subject of Rosie's cross examination of a witness came up and I said something like, boy, that was really bad. I was critical of it. And this person agreed, said, yeah, really lost the plot there. And we had a collegial conversation about it. And then on their YouTube coverage, they acted like Rosie's cross examination had been like Clarence Darrow. And so that made me suspect that at least that person wasn't being entirely sincere in what they were putting out to their audience.

[A]

Oceania has always been at war with East Asia. Like, it was like, I, I, I, I. Yeah, I have a thought on this. I think there's two categories. I think there's actually two groups within, within this wider sort of crank. Them. I do think there are the true believers. These are people who are not very intelligent or they're not very good at separating fact from fiction. They're conspiratorial. That's just how they go about in their daily lives. They're kind of conspiratorial with everything. And when they don't understand stuff, they make up conspiracy theories to explain it. So if something's happening that they don't like, obviously there's ill intent and they are willing to sort of smear people as bad actors. But I think they are true believers. I think they truly believe something's going on. And it's kind of that famous tweet that I like to cite. When you don't understand anything, everything's a conspiracy, right? And I think they fall into that category. And there were, there were creators and commentators and people in that camp present at trial. And then I think the more sinister group for me were the people who do have insight and do have abilities to sort of separate fact from fiction and do have experience that's relevant, who made a decision to go conspiratorial because that's the way they thought the wind was blowing and because that would be more interesting for their audience. Now I tend to think some of those people shoot themselves in the foot because I think there's a lot of people either in the middle who are undecided or who are pretty well versed in this and don't want the conspiracy nonsense. So it drives those people away. That audience is not being served by this and they kind of don't like it and they want something better, frankly. So you lock your, when you make, when you just do your silly dances and kind of, you know, cater to the wildest, most extreme audience, you're limiting yourself and they become like a ball and chain because it also makes you less credible in the eyes of other people. So but like, at the same time, I think it's a very loyal audience. I think it's, you know, these are people who, they want their stupid opinions validated at all costs, so they're just gonna follow that person forever. So it's a loyal audience, but I think it's a smaller audience than they would get otherwise. I also think there's a lot of people who are not necessarily conspiratorial who follow these people who are unaware of how stuff works. So they just think, oh, this person's credible, that's it. And they're not. They don't really have all the information yet. But I think if they did, they'd probably be like, oh, wait, this is nonsense. So I think there's, you know, I think there's two categories, but it's a great question. And this person also wanted to ask, how is covering Delphi changed your approach to covering future cases? What do you think about that? Kevin?

[B]

Delphi has changed my thoughts about humanity, about media, about YouTube, about everything. So I think it's made me a lot more skeptical of the noise around a tragedy. And I also think Delphi has made me aware of the need to keep the victim centered. Because I feel all too often in Delphi people were talking about Odinism or conspiracies and all this stuff. And it was all too easy to forget that what this case is about is not about some outrageous, ridiculous conspiracy theories. It is about the unimaginable loss of two wonderful girls who, had they been allowed to live, would have made this world a better place.

[A]

That's so wonderfully said, Kevin. I really, I echo all of that. This is the case that made me into a self hating true crime podcaster. I've just seen so much bile and hatred and negativity coming out of true crime that it makes me embarrassed to be part of it on some level. And we tried to counteract that by trying to be ethical and encouraging others to do practices that are more ethical and kinder and more compassionate and more fair. But you know, it is sort of, it's like, you know, you, you turn on the lights at the party and you just see a big mess all over the place and hard to unsee that once you've seen it up close like this. It's, I think it's made me see the limits of so called objectivity when it comes to reporting. You know, it's not enough to sort of both sides, a case like Delphi. It's not enough to come in and say, ah yes, Odinism. Interesting. Anyways, what do you have to say, prosecution, when Odinism is falling apart, When Odinism is just clearly bunk and when Odinism is a mess and when the defense is like falling on its face at the three day hearing, we should say that we're not serving our audience by acting like, by whitewashing. That's not the truth. What we owe people is fairness. What we owe people is giving people, you know, a chance or here's what they're trying to say or something like that. But that doesn't mean we need to like, like pretend like things are normal when things are not normal. So it's, you can expect more of that going forward. There's going to be cases where we're going to seem very neutral on maybe because we don't have a hard opinion or because we really do think it's down the middle. There's going to be cases where we're going to say no, we think this is nonsense. I think we're just going to be blunter about stuff. It's made me blunter, it's made me not want to, you know, because I feel like when people hear, oh, this is when people hear the neutrality. When people hear this sort of forced performance, performative neutrality, performative objectivity, I guess I should say, not so much neutrality, but more of objectivity. When it's performative, it doesn't enhance anyone's understanding because we're basically normalizing something, you know, and a lot about this wasn't normal. So I think, think letting you know that was important. And again, you don't have to take our word for it. We're just telling. We're one voice. You can listen to other people. Maybe they think it's more normal. That's Fine. But like, I, I think we're going to be blunter and more burned out going forward because that's just how I feel. And I'm not interested in carrying water for people who are doing just ridiculous stuff. And this just seems to be the way things are going in true crime, where you're just gonna have these high profile cases devolve into just madness online and, you know, you know, not acting like that's cool and good and, and normal and, you know, I did. We're just not gonna. I'm not interested in normalizing antisocial or bizarre or untruthful behavior. I'm just not. So I think that's what is going to change. But we'll try to be fair. We'll try to say, like, there's multiple sides to this. We don't know everything. I think that's. That remains important to me. It's just this, like, you know, I'm not going to be like some fake newscaster, you know. Oh, yes, interesting. Andrew Baldwin is throwing things at the jury now. That's very good. You know, like, no. Somebody asked what was. What were pitfalls we encountered that we hope to avoid in the future. Trusting anybody on YouTube. Like, there were times where we were like, oh, these people have good hearts and they're gonna do the right thing on the league. And then they turned around and we're just not doing the right thing on the league. So I think just much lower expectations for people going forward would be probably.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

I think in terms of our own behavior, I would say, you know, I, we talked about this. I would have handled things about the Ron Logan thing a lot differently. That was naive and I, I felt we could have handled that better in behind the scenes and publicly. Just, it was not out of ill intent. We're not trying to cause problems or, or like start a whole narrative about Ron Logan. It was just something where we just, we were too academic about it. We were too sort of thinking, ah, yes, answers in the case. Instead of what's the headline going to be now? I think a lot more about what is the headline going to be? Because you have to. Because that's just the world we live in. And you can't just come into things being like this tells us about 2017. No, it's gonna, it tells us what, you know, the headline is going to be that he did it. So you have to be aware of that and report responsibly and accordingly. So do you have any things that you think we could have Done better.

[B]

Those are the big things.

[A]

Yeah, I just. And that was the culmination, I think, of a few things that we did that were in line with kind of being naive about how things would be perceived and how things would be reported once we put them out there. And I think that would be the thing that I would want to be aware of going forward and not do again. And also just. Yeah. Centering the victims, too. I think, you know, by the end, the story became the girls solved their own case. And I want that to be what people remember about this. Truthfully. I. I don't. I. Yeah, I want that the book to ultimately be, you know, that. And I think the big picture is something that we will keep in mind more going forward. Somebody asked, you know, oh, one thing that I wanted to say about the book. Right. So again, August 26th is when it's out, you can get it. We're doing a lot of events that we're going to be announcing on our Facebook group and on our Patreon. And I think, you know, there's going to be one in Westfield on August 26 and one on. In Delphi on August 30, and another one that I think we can announce, which is going to be in, I believe, Franklin, right?

[B]

Yes, I believe we've already announced that.

[A]

We've already announced that. I'll announce it again just here really quickly. Let me see if I can find it.

[B]

Yeah, we. We talked about that on last week's Cheat sheet. We really love Franklin in Johnson county, but. Yeah, so you can go back and listen to that information in that episode. And it's also available on our Facebook page. Yeah, we'd like to see as many of you there as possible.

[A]

We're gonna be doing a lot of different events, so just stay tuned. And if people want us for their event or you want us for your book club, get in touch. Murdersheetmail.com I will say this, though, with the. I believe that one in Franklin is on October 3rd. But a lot of people did accuse us with the book. Remember this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, it's only gonna come out if there's a conviction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not how book deals work, guys. Come on. Tell me you've never at all dealt with anything in publishing. This book was gonna come out no matter what. There was no. We had no. There was no vested interest in an outcome. We're gonna write it no matter what. The deal was signed. And this is just something, you know, you know, for us. Like, you know, people are like, oh, they're, you know, gonna be multimillionaire. That's. Book publishing does not pay that much anymore, to be very clear. And we made the personal decision to donate half of our advance to the park, slash, Abby and Libby scholarship funds. Right. Because we want to give back to that community. And I think that's a wonderful way of doing it. The park provides a safe place for kids to hang out and play, which is unfortunately not what Abby and Libby had that day. Through no fault of Delphi. I mean, there was just a. Happened to be a random creep out there, but that. And then the scholarships provide the funds for kids to do what they never got to do, which is, you know, go on to higher education. So I think that's if people are ever looking for a way to sort of memorialize Abby and Libby. Doing that or platforming those funds are a good way of doing that because they. They do truly give back to the children of Delphi. And I. I will close on this. I remember we were talking about a situation where, you know, we were talking about, like, okay, this was, you know, this was in some ways kind of an emotionally shattering experience. Not. Not for us necessarily, but for kind of everyone who encountered it. In a weird way, even people who I think did bad things in it are not unscathed. Like, it's just a. There's a darkness, there's a. There's just a real extreme level of evil and horrible stuff happening here and just the tragedy of the loss of Abby and Libby. But I remember you and I were just talking randomly one night, and I just sort of. This came to me, and I feel so grateful in a way, to have seen the care with which the investigators, the prosecutors, the people of Delphi, the families of the girls all handled this and the grace with which they handled this and the passion and emotion. And there's something to bear witness to that, to bear witness to people like Kathy Schenck, who came in and just donated her own time to trying to figure this out, to the law enforcement officers, to the prosecutors, and again to the victims families, and then just to the everyday citizens of Delphi trying to navigate this. There was a real privilege and honor in being people who got to witness that. So to me, that is something that will stick with me forever. Some of the bad stuff may as well, but that is something that I think we said it destroyed our faith in humanity, but then I think that restored some of it. There's really good people out there. There's really, really good people out there. There's people who are heroic and that's real. And that doesn't mean they're perfect or they do everything perfect or you know, that life is perfect. But it does mean that when things are going wrong, there are people out there who will never give up and who will keep trying and keep doing what they need to do until answers come. So that's something that will stick with me forever.

[B]

Well said.

[A]

All right, I think we've yapped on enough. But again, buy the book. August 26th should come in and then we're going to doing a lot of events and we hope to see a lot of you. And and also we have these book plates we're giving out for anyone who pre orders. So if you do just send. If you're not in our Facebook group, send us a email@murdersheet gmail.com and we'll send you the book plate form. Thank you all so much.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[B]

You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to like start attacking you and even threatening you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I know when that first started happening to us it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was Simplisafe.

[A]

Simplisafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit veiled threats where people say they're going to come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisave, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard, outdoor protection, that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters, they're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. We're obsessed with our quince pieces. Is that fair to say?

[B]

That's fair to say.

[A]

What is quince?

[B]

Quince is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[A]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just gonna get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses cause like I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just feels fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[B]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[A]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about this, the the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[B]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[A]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things. Make sure the sizing's right for you and it's just a great deal for Murder Sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quints. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day return. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.