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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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- [00:16]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:46]
Anya Cain
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- [01:00]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:23]
Anya Cain
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- [01:52]
Kevin Greenlee
We recently had the opportunity to interview someone who served on the jury in the Delphi murders trial. We asked her about the experience, her impressions of the attorneys and the witnesses and the evidence and her views on how the jury came to convict Richard Allen of murdering 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams. The Murder Sheet is the first outlet to do an interview with a juror in this case.
- [02:18]
Anya Cain
You may notice that this episode is a bit more edited than our previous first person interview series episodes. The reason for that is we wanted to take care not to include any identifying information about this juror. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with this juror. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us in some capacity, email us@murdersheetmail.com this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten the opportunity to hear directly from some of the principal figures in this case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Cain.
- [03:07]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:11]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:13]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [03:19]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Delphi Murders. First Person A Juror Part one.
- [03:42]
Juror
It with the summons. I was really, it's weird when we got the postcards sent. I wish I could remember. It was pretty early on. I would say like August ish even. And I guess because I'm sure you guys know there the trial was supposed to happen before it did and they sent out summons for that round too. So a lot of the people that were on the jury for this, for this trial got summons prior as well. So they got two. I myself didn't. It was the only time a second time and I had never done jury duty, been checked for jury duty, nothing of the sort. So it was pretty crazy. And I don't know, I haven't had like that many life experiences, so it's probably the craziest thing I've ever done in my life.
- [05:02]
Anya Cain
At this point I, I bad, I'm curious. Did you have a sense, as you all were getting called in, it was this sort of massive pool of people. Did you have a sense it was for a major case or that it might be for the Delphi case or were you guys kind of in the, in the dark?
- [05:18]
Juror
So the very first thing with the postcard, you have to like call and just answer like random stupid questions. And then at that point you have no idea. And then after that we got a packet and that was sent maybe like a month after the postcard. And at this point I'm like wondering what it is. And then it had Probably I think 50 questions at one point, like halfway through it did mention, you know, do you know anything about Richard Allen versus the State of Indiana? And at that point I really didn't know anything. I, I'm not, I wouldn't call myself like an avid true crime person. I'll do like the documentaries in the evenings I'll watch. But with that I watched so many that like the name Richard Allen did not ring a bell of any sort, even if I like had seen anything in the past. And then a little bit more through the packet it talked about during jury selection when they mentioned all of the different names of people that were going to testify, it essentially had all of those name and they asked if you knew anything about any of these people. And at that point I remembered Liberty German was such a specific name that had rang a little bit of a bell. And I was like, oh yeah, I heard she's one of the, you know, girls that were murdered. That's all I really knew. And then by the very last question got me the most was, do you know anything about Odinism? And then all of those different things. So I, you know, knew nothing at this point. So I was wondering like, oh, there must be something like crazy with this case going on. And that's all I really knew. I expected, I guess to find more once the trial happened, but obviously get.
- [07:17]
Anya Cain
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- [07:40]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [08:02]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [08:39]
Anya Cain
If you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I A H E M P.com and use code msheet at checkout. After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you this year. Enhance your Every day with via I wish I could automate all my New Year's resolutions so I wouldn't have to muster the willpower to go on a walk for exercise. Or if I could automatically kick myself off my phone and launch a Margaret Millar book into my hands instead, that would be awesome. Somewhat scary, but super helpful, but you.
- [09:19]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [09:37]
Anya Cain
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- [10:19]
Anya Cain
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- [11:02]
Juror
That out.
- [11:03]
Anya Cain
I'm curious, can you talk us through the day where you sort of come in and this whole kind of chaotic process is going on as they're kind of bringing all of you guys through this system and putting you through the jury selection process.
- [11:15]
Juror
Absolutely. So, you know, we sent the packet in. Once I sent the packet and I didn't hear things a thing for a while. So I kind of just thought like they went with other people, whatever. And so I'm not the best with checking my mail. So it might have been sent out earlier, but from when I saw it. But I saw the paper to show up maybe Thursday or Friday and to come in on Monday. So I was like, oh my gosh. And then once I saw that, I thought I just for some reason knew I was gonna get picked. I can't explain it, I just knew. And when I found out of the sequester, my, I had actually had a family member tell me because they sent us something not to, you know, watch media or anything like that. So I wasn't watching the news or anything. I guess it came out that we're going to be sequestered and I was like, what does that entail? So I google it and it says, yeah, you get pretty much sipped off when you get chosen at jury selection. So I thought going in that they're just going to. And they're like, well, and you'll be able to, they'll, they'll take you home and they'll give you a little bit to pack your things or whatever. So I, I can't just take an hour to pack. It takes me a long time and I have a million bags. So I was like, I'm packing now. So I packed everything I needed before I even went in on Monday just because I had a feeling and I wanted to just be prepared and kicked.
- [12:42]
Anya Cain
What's interesting is that there was one self proclaimed psychic in the pool of prospective jurors. Shockingly, he did not get called. But it sounds like this juror made a very apt prediction herself. We asked this juror if she had heard from other jurors about the gentleman who said he had psychic powers.
- [12:59]
Juror
Yeah, we all laugh. Now we know if we need to get out of dirty duty, what to say.
- [13:04]
Anya Cain
Gosh, I. So, so you're there, you kind of have a feeling you're gonna get picked.
- [13:08]
Juror
Kind of backing up. They bring you in, you gotta like check in and then you sit at the first floor and all these chairs and you watch a video and they just like explain jury duty and then they give you a number. And McLeland talked, did the whole, I do remember the whole snowman question thing about, you know, if you came home and he saw a puddle on the ground, what would you think? And. Well, if you came home and saw coal and a puddle on the ground, what did you think? And then what if there was a carrot on the ground? You know, that whole thing.
- [13:48]
Anya Cain
Oh, yeah. It took me a really long time to get it, to be honest.
- [13:51]
Juror
I must be. Yeah, I. I didn't catch on. I didn't. And I was. I was so stressed. I think a lot of us were just so, like, didn't know what to expect and. Yeah. And never doing it before either. And then once we learned that it's this, like, huge case, like, that kind of adds something to it, too. And county, we don't really know. So. Yeah, it was pretty crazy.
- [14:16]
Kevin Greenlee
This juror got to witness some of the voir dire tactics from the various attorneys. Prospective jurors would crowd into one side of the gallery and have the opportunity to observe the lawyers as they questioned each panel. The moments that stood out in her mind focused on Carroll county prosecutor Nicholas McCleland, who handled all the prosecution rounds, and lead defense lawyer Bradley Rosie, who had some memorable moments throughout the jury selection process.
- [14:43]
Juror
I thought it was funny where Rosie came with explaining reasonable doubt, and I think it was just all the different types of evidence, maybe, but the little cards that he held up and he's like, let me dumb it down for you. I couldn't believe that. I. Yeah, we all, like, started on the wrong foot with Rosie, I think.
- [15:09]
Anya Cain
Yeah. What did you make of Rosie and then what did you make of McLeland?
- [15:13]
Juror
Yeah, I thought McLeland made. Made the nervousness kind of feel comfortable. And you said it best when you guys were talking about it. He really just kind of like, gets on your level and makes you feel comfortable, which I think is just realizing that this is something really stressful for just, like, you know, a normal person that just has no idea what's, you know, gonna happen, which really gives you, like, a element of trust, especially when you don't know anyone. And Rosie, on the other hand, was very opposite of that, I think. Kind of almost felt like he played on the nervousness. Like, I felt almost like it was an interrogation. Yeah. Very different between the two, for sure.
- [16:01]
Anya Cain
Yeah. It's so interesting, the different approaches, and I do wonder if there's any. If there's any strategy to it. I mean, Kevin probably would know better, but.
- [16:10]
Juror
And throughout this whole process, I'm very much like the. Trying to play devil's devil's advocate. And. And again, this is just from my experience, but people did express to me, you know, negative feelings about the defense. And I was always telling them, thinking, like, really more so just thinking, because I didn't really want to tell anyone anything. Just. It's really weird. You're just secluded and you're by yourself. You don't really know anyone. You don't really. It's like Survivor almost. We joked a lot of times, like, who are we gonna vote off the island? But I. I was always playing devil's advocate. Like, you know, that's their job. They're supposed to, like, not necessarily be mean to people, but make them say the wrong thing and mess them up and, you know, they're supposed to be the bad cop, essentially.
- [16:58]
Kevin Greenlee
People were saying negative things about the defense during the process.
- [17:02]
Juror
I think it was more just, like, general things of, like, me. We would laugh a lot about, like, mannerisms of the defect people and on both sides, really on that. But, yeah, just about being hard on people. And another thing, like, a lot of people didn't like was the interrogation videos. And I'm sure we'll get into that for sure when we talk about deliberations and things. But like I said, it went both ways, for sure, of things we were unhappy with, but we did feel the defense a lot of times, like, what's going on? Kind of thing. Like, is this normal? Like, this seems pretty crazy.
- [17:44]
Anya Cain
Like, those sitting in the gallery. The jurors also got to study the mannerisms of the attorneys firsthand, only they had a better view from the jury box.
- [17:53]
Juror
Rosie would do, like, a leaning forward gesture all the time. Like, I'm doing it right now, but when you're staring at people all day, you take in a lot of, like, you know, mannerisms, but, like, body language and things like that, too.
- [18:09]
Anya Cain
What other ones of those did you notice? I'm curious.
- [18:13]
Juror
Oh, my gosh, Latrell. Or I say it wrong, too. You're not the only one, Kevin. Thank you.
- [18:20]
Kevin Greenlee
I appreciate that.
- [18:24]
Juror
But he would do the hands on his chest and the. Like that. The palms almost opening out. I don't even know how to explain it in words. Like, palms up, like, kind of close to his chest. And like, as if you're, like, have a small. Like you're cupping your hands, like if you have water in it or something. He would, like, do that all the time. I wish I could remember more. Those little things like that, like, are things I was like, you know, I won't forget.
- [18:55]
Anya Cain
Did you notice any of that from Richard Allen Himself, as he was sort of in the courtroom.
- [19:01]
Juror
So the eyes kind of. That's something I noticed from even, like, Jerry Selection. I'm like, wow. His eyes are very. I don't even know what word to use. Different, I guess, surprising. But, you know, that, to me is like, sometimes people. He just has, like, some weird eyes. I don't think that makes him, you know, a murderer. So I would kind of, like, refrain from looking over there, I guess, because anytime we made eye contact, I would just look away really fast. And a couple of the other jurors, they would talk about how he's always staring, like, at us. And so they would start staring back and, like, not looking away until he did. Me, personally, I would not really look a whole lot of times.
- [19:56]
Anya Cain
Yeah, this is. Yeah. When. When you guys were on break, there were a couple times where he'd be staring at people in the gallery. But obviously, yeah, it was creepy. He was pointing at us at one point. I know he was doing stuff with other people that. That was actually pretty commonplace. But we couldn't see what you guys saw, so we were always really curious. Like, maybe he's acting more normal to them.
- [20:18]
Juror
Right. And I like the staring because I thought too, like, you know, I stare off even. You know, it's long days and whatnot. There would be times where, you know, I. There's a couple of times we both looked at each other and he smiled, and it was. It was really hard, I think, for me especially than a lot of others, but looking him in the eye, knowing, like, the possible outcome of all of it. Like, it was just really hard for me to, like, even be in the room with him every day.
- [20:50]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. I want to go back to, you know, you get selected, then what happens?
- [20:58]
Juror
First, they bring you into, like, a little room and essentially, like, tell you just, like, the basics of anything you would, like, need to know before we ship off. So a couple people were really upset once they were in the room and they found out they're going to be a juror and that were getting sequestered. I guess they didn't realize from what Dead's doll said and things like that. So it was like, hitting them in that room like, I'm going through a bathroom remodel and what. What am I gonna do? And kind of, like, the reality of we're leaving our homes for a while. We got corn on Thursday morning. We came back with our bag. We had to walk through the courthouse, and then they went through all of our stuff. Make sure you don't have Anything we're not supposed to. It was funny. I brought a Polaroid camera because I didn't see anything like that. Said we couldn't have one. And it didn't, like, you know, get on the Internet or anything. So I. And so I figured it was okay. And Jason said. The bailiff said, well, that's the first. No one's ever brought one of those before. I was like, well, I'm glad I could be the first. But, yeah, they definitely confiscated that, and they gave it back to me the day we left. So anyways, yeah, they go through our stuff, and then we went and got corn in. And this was at, like, 9:00am we arrived, and then we got on a tour bus thing. I don't know, coach, whatever. And then went to Delphi or Lafayette, I guess is where we stayed.
- [22:31]
Anya Cain
I imagine you guys spend a lot of time with those bailiffs.
- [22:34]
Juror
Oh, yeah.
- [22:34]
Anya Cain
What were they like?
- [22:36]
Juror
The bailiffs were seriously so amazing. I mean, everyone was. And that's the point I really wanted to put is like, you know, you think a random group of people from the county you're in, like, completely random. That's how it's supposed to be. So you never know what you can get. And we had a really, really great group of people, and I don't think it would have went so well without all of them. So I think everyone in the trial was lucky to have, you know, the great people we had, because I don't think it would have went as smoothly. But Jason. And then there's Jeremy. And then we had Leslie, who was our third Bayless. So I think they have to have a female just for, like, all the girl stuff. I'm not really sure. And then Leslie, her kind of thing that she did was she made sure we were all fed every day. She brought us our lunch to the courthouse, and then she would bring us our dinner. And she did pretty much everything behind the scenes. She's amazing. And then, yeah, Jeremy and Jason, they drove the vans in the morning. Each of us, we split up in vans, and then they would drive us in the morning and home. And that's pretty much it. They would just keep us alive. And then something I thought was really interesting with was we had a system of we would order groceries. They would. We. So we could make whatever we want, but we would always have dinner or whatnot. We would write these request forms so we could just fill out any. Anything under the sun that we wanted. We would just write it down and then just submit the paper forms. And then it would show up later that day. Leslie would go shopping pretty much every single day for whatever we needed. And then we would do the same for dinners. We would just, like, in lunches, we would. She would plan ahead where we're eating, and then she would. We had these binders that had all of the different menus to the restaurants, because, of course, we don't have Internet access. And she printed those off so we could pick what we wanted, and we would write it down, and then it would be there.
- [24:47]
Anya Cain
Like, you don't think about how elaborate. Something like just planning dinner for all those.
- [24:52]
Juror
Oh, my God.
- [24:53]
Anya Cain
You know. But it's so elaborate. What kind of places would they get you guys food from? I'm assuming you guys would eat in the hotel.
- [24:59]
Juror
The way it was planned at first was every other night we would go out to dinner and then eat in every other. And that quickly we changed because of how exhausted we were every single day. And going out with all the people, with all we had, at least if we were going somewhere, probably five cop with us. And then at the hotel, there was probably 10 to 20 at all times. It was a lot to go places and go in public. So we decided we just want to eat at the hotel every night, because that was just too much, so. And the places we would go for dinners, we did. Longhorn, let me think. There's a place around there called Hayes river or something like that. It's like a public house. I remember more of the lunches. For some reason, the lunches were just like McAllister's. There was that Stone House restaurant, Panera, all that stuff. So pretty, just generic. At Cheddar's.
- [26:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. I was wondering, during the trial, were you aware of the level of media attention this was receiving?
- [26:08]
Juror
Yes and no. They kind of expressed that when we were, like, sequestered at the beginning. Just that, you know, there's a lot of, like, coverage about it. But one day, like, they. I guess to answer your question fully, they downplayed it a lot. I think they didn't want us to, like, worry too much. But, like, the security detail and all of that, I'm like, this seems just crazy. We couldn't even go on the elevators to the bottom floor without, you know, cops with us. We couldn't have anyone else in the elevator with us. We couldn't talk to anyone else. It was very serious. But on the way home from the courthouse one day, we all of a sudden started going really, really fast. Like, I'm talking, like, 90 miles per hour, and we're like, what the heck? And the. We just didn't know what happened. Like, they don't tell us really anything. You can just tell that there's, like, a stressful something going on. And afterwards they end up telling us. This was like. Because it wasn't long before the end of the trial, but they told us at the end that it was some person when so. And Jason and Jeremy are bailiffs. They didn't have, what do you call it, like, radios to, like, talk back and forth. They didn't know why we were going that fast at the time. They just go, however fast the cop in front of them goes. And they were speeding, so they're following them. Well, what happened was they saw someone next to us. They said they were one of the cops saw that someone was trying to take pictures into our van. So they pulled that person over and took her phone and took it to Judge Goal. So she's on the side of the highway. They keep her there, take her phone to Judge Goal, Judge go, looks through it, finds that there's. She was just. She had. Goes to school at IU and had just, like, been traveling through deli and saw, you know, our vans and all the cops was like, what is that? And then, like, looked it up and saw what it was and was just telling her friends, but still, she didn't have, like, videos of us or anything. So they brought her phone back to her on the highway and. And let her go after that.
- [28:30]
Anya Cain
Oh, my God.
- [28:31]
Juror
So anytime it was like, you know, like, even a somewhat stressful situation, they would just get us out of there really fast. So that kind of told me, you know, it's kind of bigger than I think or know. And then once we finished and I did my own research, I'm like, oh, okay. Like, everyone knows about it. Like, we're not just, you know, not just Indiana people.
- [28:55]
Anya Cain
You know, in terms of your typical day, you guys were there a lot of days, obviously. What can you walk us through almost like a day in the life of a juror during this case? Obviously, it was a little bit different on Saturdays because it was half day, and then Sundays we all got off. But. But what was it like typically for you guys?
- [29:13]
Juror
Sure. So we all would meet. We have this, like, room that everyone could use at the hotel that we would have meetings in. That's where we met in the morning. So we had to be there at 8am and then we would drive to the courthouse and get there about usually, like, 8:30, walk up those treacherous marble stairs, and again, it Would start, you know, 9:00 or thereafter, depending on the housekeeping responsibilities. From there, you know, we would have our first session and then a break. And then our breaks really were just all of us having. Being able to use the bathroom. We only had two bathrooms to use, so usually everyone had to go in between our breaks. So that's pretty much what we were doing. We weren't allowed to talk about anything unless everyone was present. So, you know, in short breaks we usually didn't talk about anything just because it was hard to get us all in the same room while everyone was using the restroom. So that would be the morning break and then lunch, of course after that. And usually if we talked, we would do it then. And again, if everyone was present, there was like two little separate rooms and a divider so people could go to either room if they wanted. You know, if we were on the same room, sometimes we'd talk. Sometimes we just kind of didn't really feel like it. It was kind of a lot, a lot of the time. And you know, we're listening to it all day and really there's not a whole lot to talk about specifically until you kind of hear it all anyway. So I wouldn't even say we did a whole lot of talking about it until fully at the end. Maybe more a little closer to the end too. And then evening break and again, as you know, sometimes we would run over and not have those breaks, things like that. And then. Yeah, and then we would leave at the end of the day, pretty much just grab our stuff from the jury room, go back down the stairs. I don't know if you saw the kind of like tent thing they had, they had set up that we go in and out of into the vans. They have the van right up and they've like the sliding door. And you, you mentioned the guys that wore the orange and black for Halloween, those officers that kind of did the transportation of Richard Allen. I believe they did that for us too. They would hold up the, the tents and I think it was just so no one could get pictures of us or something.
- [32:00]
Anya Cain
That. That makes sense.
- [32:01]
Juror
So that's how we would kind of load up and get out too. Yeah. And then back to the hotel and then we would have our evening.
- [32:13]
Anya Cain
Were you guys, did you become a close knit group by the end of this?
- [32:18]
Juror
Absolutely, yeah. At least the way I feel again, I can't speak for anyone else, but yeah, I feel like going through something like that and not having, you know, anyone, it kind of brings you close to people And I was just. Like I said, it was pretty hard on me. So towards the end, I was kind of a mess. So everyone really, like, stepped up and made sure, you know, everyone else was okay. And, you know, we all took care of each other for sure.
- [32:48]
Anya Cain
That's really nice. What were your impressions of the other people in the group?
- [32:52]
Juror
Very, very, very smart people. Like, and like I said, they're all, like, so random. But not one person was, I, like, I cannot deal with this person, or I don't like this person. Which I think would genuinely be pretty difficult. Not that I'm like, I don't like anyone, but I think it would be pretty difficult just finding a bunch of random people and not even one being a dud. But, yeah, everyone was really great. And a lot of them have, like, done jury duty before, so they weren't completely going in blind. But even an experience like this, like, no one's done anything like that. So.
- [33:32]
Anya Cain
No, that. That makes sense. It's definitely a different kind of trial than your typical one. You know, Sundays, I know you guys got to do activities and sort of see your family a bit. Can you tell us about that? That.
- [33:42]
Juror
Yeah, yeah. That was really cool. I mean, and you know how, like, on Saturdays we would have half day of court, and then the other half of the day we would do an activity. So it was either bowling or movie theater. So we did bowling twice, maybe three times. We did bowling. Yeah. The final weekend, too, we did bowling three times. And then we went to the movie theater once and we saw Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice. And that was really good just to, like, get out. We were all talking, like, the bowling thing. Funny because we felt like we, like, that's all we did outside of court. So we're all gonna do a bowling league. But then. Yeah, so then that's Saturday night. And then, yeah, Sundays from 1 to 5, our family members could come and we would just essentially, like, hang out in the lobby. And again, there's like 10 to 20 police officers around. Even more in the parking lot, just in their cars, keeping us safe, but also making sure, like, everything goes the way it's supposed to as well. We would do, like, a cookout. Our hotel had, like, girls outside, so Jason would grill sometimes. Or we would like, cater subway or pizza things like that.
- [35:01]
Anya Cain
Wow. That's okay.
- [35:02]
Juror
So that.
- [35:02]
Anya Cain
I mean, I. Yeah, I always. So I'm like, what is their activity? So I think that. Yeah, I think that's neat. I'm going to ask you about some of the different parties in the case and kind of what your impressions and what maybe sort of the. What you got the sense of the group's impressions of them were. And I guess the starting off one would be the one who probably kind of addressed you guys directly the most, and that's Judge Gull.
- [35:23]
Juror
I think that he is a very impressive woman. I don't know every. Ever since. I mean, in the way you look at it, dubs, at least to me, I was just like, wow. Like, she must be really, like, educated and just. And I. I love seeing women and, like, a high role. So I always. I thought that was really cool from the beginning. And then from my experience from the kit from the trial, I again, once I heard the podcast, like, I totally get where you guys are coming from. From. From like, a media standpoint of wanting to. Because I feel the same way. Like, I'm so glad that you guys were able to be there the amount of times you were and get the correct message of what actually happened in court through. So I totally get your side, but as a juror, I didn't, you know, experience any of that. And I just thought and think that she just like a boss, like, and just did a really good job. I think she commands a room.
- [36:27]
Anya Cain
Yes. And I think we tried to stress on the show that while we still are certainly salty to a certain degree about the media stuff, I think she. She certainly. She guided the case legally throughout a lot of minefields throughout the whole process, and I was impressed with that. And also, she was so nice. Like, you could tell when she was addressing you guys, like, she was so warm and kind of, oh, my God, it was really nice. And, like, I just. I was curious. You kind of noticed that, too.
- [36:53]
Juror
Yeah. And at the. After the. After the trial, we. She always debriefs the jury, so we got to spend some time with her, and we're allowed to ask her any questions we want to. We just got to talk to her and actually spend normal time with her. That's not just, you know, in court. So that was really cool, too.
- [37:12]
Anya Cain
What was she like during that?
- [37:15]
Juror
Very chill. Like, not at all. As I was expecting, she's very chill and cool and relaxed and just go with the flow and not at all like you fear as it does.
- [37:27]
Anya Cain
And then I'm curious, what were your impressions of the. The three attorneys from the prosecution? So I guess we can start off with McCleland. We talked a bit about him during voir dire, but during trial, I was.
- [37:39]
Juror
Very, very impressed with McLeland. I think he did a really, really good job. And that's off of someone that, you know, knows nothing about trials to this point. So. But knowing nothing, I think he. And I guess that's what really matters because I was a juror. But like, I think he, I kind of touched on that. He just made me feel comfortable, very professional. I, I think that was something that kind of lacked on the other side. Like, I felt that he always kind of had a plan, like always thoroughly prepared, just like a high level professional. I don't know, just kind of what you'd expect from a lawyer.
- [38:23]
Anya Cain
Right. And then I guess the next one would be Stacy Deener on the prosecution side.
- [38:29]
Juror
I really like Stacy Dean. Well, and something for me, I, I really like fashion. So it was really cool for me to look at everyone's outfits every day. And that was like something really cool about being in a courthouse for me for some reason. But he had the best outfits. That was something I really liked about.
- [38:49]
Anya Cain
Why. Why are we like the same person? Because I was always saying the same thing. I kept telling Kevin, I'm like, she looks like one of the women from Law and Order. So she's like, oh yeah, very well put together.
- [38:59]
Juror
And he didn't wear the same outfit twice, not once. Which is pretty impressive.
- [39:06]
Anya Cain
I agree. And I cut you off. I'm so sorry. What else were you going to say about Stacy Teeter?
- [39:09]
Juror
No, I didn't know this at the beginning when I didn't know that they like have planned who's going to cross and who, like, who's going to ask who the questions. Like, I didn't know they already knew who was going to talk to who. And it's like strategy. But I realized that a little bit as it went of like, oh, well, she's a great person to question this witness and examine the witness, whatever. And I feel like she did a really good job in her role as being. She talked to a lot of the women that, you know, were just like the witnesses and things like that. And I think she did a really good job too in her role.
- [39:52]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. And then I'm going to try to do it right. James Lutchell, him.
- [40:01]
Juror
I didn't warm up too as much. And that's probably because he did a lot of the technical things too. It's not really his fault. Not that I think he didn't do a good job because I think the prosecution as a whole, working together and all of their roles, I think they all did a really good job.
- [40:17]
Anya Cain
I want to go on to the defense, I guess Andrew Baldwin.
- [40:21]
Juror
I like them I. More than Rosie, you know, for comparing. I think he was more approachable in a sense, or just not as, like, intimidating because it's. I don't know if Rosie was trying to. But he just always seemed, like, intimidating, like, even. Because we don't, like, talk to these people or anything, but just even, like making eye contact, you, like, try not to look him in the eye, you know. But with Baldwin, you know, we would make eye contact. I would smile, and I think, I think he did a really good job. I would laugh sometimes with, like, his one question on each of the yellow pieces of paper, and we're flipping those over after we ask a question. That was funny sometimes. But he has a process and it works for him.
- [41:08]
Anya Cain
So, yeah, those seed chapters or chapter.
- [41:11]
Kevin Greenlee
Seeds, that's what he calls them.
- [41:12]
Juror
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Kevin Greenlee
You mentioned Brad, Rosie. What'd you think of him?
- [41:15]
Juror
And I, I don't know if, if he's like the lead person or if it's like they both are, but it almost seemed like a ego thing too. I don't know, like, or maybe that's just the kind of person he is. His ego just shows through. But like I said, he. Intimidating. I think it was from starting out on the. Like, let me dumb this down for you. Like, okay, so at least we know where we stands. And. But yeah, I. And his, his questioning you, I. It was hard for me to even focus and know what's going on, honestly. Like, I feel like it was just so much smoke and mirrors around, like, what even we're supposed to be talking about, and it was hard to keep track sometimes.
- [42:12]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Yeah. That was certainly not an uncommon perception of Rosie's cross examinations. And then the last one on the defense team is Jennifer.
- [42:24]
Juror
OJ I really, really like Jennifer Rose. I don't know. I really liked her. Again, I don't know if it's because it's like a woman thing, but she did a really good job. I think she, you know, stands on business. You know, I think with both sides, things kind of got wonky at points. So I don't really. And same thing with Rosie. Like, if it was just once in a while, I wouldn't hold that against him. But it seems like all the time it was confusing and ego and intimidation. But with Jennifer, I just felt, I don't know, I kind of liked her. Like, she has a little bit of attitude, and I feel like that from what I would picture, like a defense attorney to be, I just, I like it.
- [43:10]
Anya Cain
Were there any standout moments for you from any of the lawyers that kind of like really, you know, either where they messed up or they did something really good that you were like, whoa, that stands out for me.
- [43:22]
Juror
I mean, as it should. I think McLeland's closing argument still kind of plays in my mind and I think that's what it successfully could do. Because you should think about what he said as your. As the last thing you heard, trying to make a decision. So when he said that, you know, she always wanted to help police solve crimes, like, that broke my heart. And that they both, you know, hid the head, the phone, got the video and wasn't for that, we wouldn't have found Richard Allen. Yeah. So that stuck with me. And I think that's what he did best with using, you know, emotion man, trying to think of anything with the defense from a perspective of a juror that doesn't. We didn't. I didn't know about like the, on this stuff or I didn't know that there were arguments of what can be shared and what not. Like behind, like, we didn't know any of the behind the scenes things. So from that perspective, when you're hearing, well, what do you think about the tree, the f on the tree, and you're just wondering, like, what the hell are they talking about? Like, I'm so confused. Like, they think it's like some specific way it's on there. Like, I don't. You're just like, wait. And so then, you know, and then all the constant arguments back and forth. Like, I think that was pretty notable of. I always thought, like, is this normal? Like, is there always this many recesses and sidebars? You know, like the noise machine. That was crazy.
- [45:06]
Anya Cain
Okay? That friggin white noise machine that plays in my head sometimes. I'm curious, you know, in terms of. You mentioned sort of areas on both sides where the jurors were kind of like, I think this side dropped the ball a bit. And can you tell me a bit about that?
- [45:29]
Juror
A lot of the defensive side of things, like when I said, you know, McLuhan did a good job of seeming like prepared and professional and just ready to go every morning and knew what he was doing that day. Like, a lot of the time I don't feel that we got that with the defense. It kind of seems scrambled, confused, not knowing what they're going to do much. And I mean, from my perspective, like, I feel like they've had ample time to know what they're doing and you just. I don't know from. For me, I Expected more, I guess, like, a higher level of professionalism from them, just throughout, really. And I. I think I'm mostly talking about Rosie when I say that. I say the defense. But I really liked Jose. I. I liked Baldwin, you know, at least 75% of the time. So I'm trying to think. I know that there's definitely got to be things from the prosecution, too. Oh. And again, like, these are all just my personal experiences. And that was a lot of it about this. We couldn't really talk to each other about anything, so it was hard to just, like, keep this all in and, like, experience it just on your own. And, you know, we can't really tell anyone at all about it. That was really hard for me because I'm kind of like a gossiper.
- [46:57]
Anya Cain
Right.
- [46:59]
Juror
So I'm trying to think. The prosecution, when. When we asked the jury question of, like, did you look and see how many cars there were of this. Of his car that year? And then next thing we know, they looked that up. I was just like, I can't believe you wouldn't have thought to do that already.
- [47:21]
Anya Cain
So that was less of like a wow moment and more of like a wait. What moment?
- [47:26]
Juror
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really wasn't what they're hoping it to be, I don't think. Right. And then I think there was something else kind of like that. The phone plugin thing. And they're like. And Chris Teepel Googled it about the code that went from there being like a headphone jack. He just looked it up and Google it. I don't feel like any of that is wrong, but it's like, okay. I mean, it doesn't really change much, I guess.
- [47:59]
Anya Cain
Right.
- [47:59]
Juror
And I guess that's not a detriment to the prep.
- [48:02]
Kevin Greenlee
But the prosecution's frequent issues with the large monitor screen also proved to be a source of consternation for the jury. They wanted to feel like their time was being used well, and those technological hiccups added up.
- [48:16]
Juror
That was probably the number one of like, what are you guys doing?
- [48:19]
Anya Cain
That was. Yeah. So that was a concern to the jury when they're seeing all of this stuff go wrong technologically wise.
- [48:25]
Juror
Yeah. Yes. And I mean, especially, you know, when it causing things to just take longer because it's like, you know, we're being away from our families and jobs for so long.
- [48:39]
Anya Cain
Like, our time is very valuable in this juror's mind. She also had concerns about Richard Allen's second interview with police, the one he did with Lt. Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police. That was something that weighed on her mind.
- [48:53]
Juror
Because I've listened to the podcast, so that when I hear what you guys said, I'm like, okay, well, that's true. But I just feel like he was very tough in the interview. It's realizing, like, that's how they're supposed to be. They're not supposed to, like, interrogations are supposed to be walks in the park. That makes total sense. And at the end, and I'm sure we'll get into, like, deliberations and things, but that was one of the things that we rewatch as far as video evidence. We watched the interview, and so, you know, we were able to have discussion about him, and it was kind of mixed. Like, I think a lot of people were like, well, that's how they're supposed to be. Like, that's how interrogations go. And for some reason, for me personally, the interview, I just thought, you know, a guy that's never been in with the law before, and he. He didn't call for a lawyer. He clearly doesn't know what he's supposed to do, but he's not admitting to it. So I was like, the interviews, to me, just felt like he was just too calm and really didn't know anything to have done it.
- [50:07]
Anya Cain
I was curious. What did you guys think? Speaking of videos, what did you guys make of the. Because we didn't see these. We were weirdly just, like, watching you all react to them and then trying to be like. Everyone's like, wow, the jury's really mad at the defense. Or the jury's really mad at the prosecution. Everyone's just, like, making it up based on your momentary expressions. But what did you guys make of the Westville videos?
- [50:31]
Juror
Yeah, and it's funny. That's what everyone's like. Yeah, they're just looking at our faces, and I'm like, oh, no, I didn't even think about that. I hope my face is on. But yeah, so the videos, I can't remember if it was the. Because there was a set of camcorder, like, walking through the prison, and then there's in cell. I don't remember, like, which we saw first. And you guys weren't able to see either of those, right?
- [51:00]
Anya Cain
No, not. Not any of them.
- [51:01]
Juror
Okay, I'll try to recall the camcorder footage first. It was essentially like, what you would think. There's someone, you know, there's guards around them, they're holding to camcorder, and they're, you know, taking him somewhere to go somewhere throughout the prison. And I guess kind of just reference, like, going into it, they did give us, like, a slight warning of, you know, you're watching the videos today. And going into it, I. It wasn't as bad as I expected, I guess. So to kind of tell you guys that for not being able to see it, I expected just from hearing about them for it to just be so, so bad. Like, because if they want to show all these to us, this bad, like, it's got to be real bad. Personally, I. Because I'm huge on, like, especially Westville is horrible, horrible prison. And, like, thinking if they're building a new one. But it, the way it is there is just so bad. And I figured that's what, you know, they're trying to portray in the video. But in these videos, it didn't seem that bad to me. Like, it just looks like a prison, like you'd expect. And while they're walking around, I know one of the times he's like, in what looked like, like a small wheelchair thing. It didn't have, like, big wheels, like a wheelchair, just, like, small ones on all four legs. But they were carrying it. They weren't even carrying it, like, four people. And I think they were taking them to get that X ray. There was a video. There was getting an X ray because he was seeing his head on the wall, and he was very, very. That was probably one of the worst ones, just because he looked so black and blue. Like, I. His whole face and head was black and blue.
- [52:45]
Anya Cain
Right, right. So definitely disturbing to see.
- [52:48]
Juror
Yeah, I. I just was. Yeah, I thought it was not going to be that bad. And then there's, you know, he's. The incel ones he's neared most of the time, I think it was like. And they put on the paper, like, which ones he had clothes on and which ones he didn't. So that we were prepared, I guess. But Little Max messed up a couple times. So some you're naked that said he wasn't, and then some he was naked or whatever, vice versa.
- [53:14]
Kevin Greenlee
Little Max is Max Baker, the recent college graduate who assisted Rosie in the trial. Sitting together for so long, the jurors built up some lore of their own. Throughout the trial, we asked her about other weird and quirky things that she and the others noticed or heard about.
- [53:32]
Juror
Oh, here's some. McLUAND War. Jason told us, because Jason's really funny. He, like, he's a jokester. So, like, you always have to, like, never take him serious. And I am kind of gullible sometimes. So I would take Him a little too serious. But. So McLeland and everyone else has been going to Fort Wayne for a long time just for all the pre trial stuff and all that. Well, I don't know if you guys know this, but I guess he used to have a mullet, like a full mullet. And this is really inappropriate. Jason says to him, like, why does your hair look like that? It looks like you were at a. Looks like you were at a tractor pool last weekend. And Nick said I was, and so. And then the next time Jason saw him, his hair looked like that. Like it does now.
- [54:24]
Anya Cain
Oh, that is so funny. Oh, my God.
- [54:26]
Juror
So he made him feel bad.
- [54:28]
Anya Cain
He bullied him.
- [54:30]
Juror
Yeah. We drew a picture of Latrol. Latrol. We all thought it was Woodrow, so.
- [54:37]
Anya Cain
We did, too, until, like, halfway through the show. And then we realized we were totally wrong because we got emails from all these people.
- [54:45]
Juror
I think even Fran might have thought it was Latrell, because I swear that's what she was saying.
- [54:49]
Anya Cain
No, she got it wrong, too.
- [54:50]
Juror
So one of the jurors, he's, like, good at drawing, so he, like, did a little doodle of him, like, doing that whole holding his hands thing that I was explaining earlier. And I forget they, like, wrote something at the bottom, but it was hilarious. And we kind of, like, we would put the. What the weather was going to be, like, the highs and lows, because we didn't have any way to know the weather and what to wear. So. And so there was, like, a little bulletin we'd always look at, and we put it on. On the bulletin. So we're just looking at it the whole time.
- [55:18]
Anya Cain
It's like. I don't know. I feel like we all should be in group therapy together because I feel like there's certain things about this experience that only people who were there would ever even understand or find funny.
- [55:27]
Juror
Absolutely. Yeah. And we definitely kept the humor going.
- [55:30]
Anya Cain
That's. That's necessary. And that's something as bad as this, you know? Yeah, it was.
- [55:36]
Juror
Yeah. It kept us sane, for sure.
- [55:38]
Anya Cain
I. I bet it did. Because, like, it's just you're seeing all this awful stuff. I'm curious. You witnesses stand out in your mind as being particularly powerful or memorable.
- [55:48]
Juror
A big one. I don't know if it's necessarily like, her testimony specifically, but just Rayleigh Voorhees Garrison. I mean, that was just almost the nail in the coffin for me, like, at the end. But her just seeing him and him seeing her, you know, the long brown hair. So that one was very easy to remember, of course. And I'll be honest. Like I said the whole time, I was really, like, trying to play devil's advocate and just see it from the defense's perspective almost, I guess. So I really did try to question everything. I just, it felt like a really hard thing to do and I just didn't want to get it wrong no matter what.
- [56:31]
Anya Cain
That's. That's what you have to do as a juror. And so, like, you should be proud of yourself for, for doing that. Like the worst outcome is convicting an innocent person.
- [56:40]
Juror
Yeah. Well, thank you.
- [56:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks very much to the juror for trusting us with her story. We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [57:09]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [57:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [57:44]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [58:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?
- [58:13]
Juror
Yeah.
- [58:13]
Anya Cain
Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.
- [58:22]
Kevin Greenlee
We love our sponsors.
- [58:23]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.
- [58:31]
Kevin Greenlee
That can seem daunting.
- [58:32]
Juror
It.
- [58:33]
Anya Cain
It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future you can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.commsheet before we go, we.
- [59:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Just wanted to say another few words about Viya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.
- [59:51]
Anya Cain
Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.
- [60:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?
- [60:41]
Anya Cain
Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T and after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.
- [61:10]
Kevin Greenlee
Can we talk a little bit before we go about quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I, I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?
- [61:29]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs. Really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [61:54]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [61:57]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [61:59]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [62:00]
Anya Cain
Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [62:35]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [62:37]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.
- [62:41]
Kevin Greenlee
You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.
- [62:44]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
- [62:45]
Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [62:46]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [62:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.
- [62:55]
Anya Cain
Quincy.
- [62:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Com.
- [62:57]
Anya Cain
There you go. So you can go to quince.com/m sheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com/m sheet. That's Q, U, I, N, C, E com, MSH, E, E, T.