The Delphi Murders: First Person: A Juror: Part Two

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Delphi Murders: First Person: A Juror: Part Two"

Release Date: January 10, 2025

Introduction

In this engrossing second installment of their "First Person" interview series, hosts Áine Cain, a seasoned journalist, and Kevin Greenlee, an attorney, delve deeper into the harrowing Delphi murders case. This episode features an exclusive interview with a juror who served on the trial that led to the conviction of Richard Allen for the tragic murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams. As the first true crime podcast to secure such an intimate perspective, Murder Sheet offers listeners unprecedented insights into the jury deliberation process, the emotional toll of serving as a juror in a high-profile case, and the intricate dynamics that influenced the final verdict.

Background of the Delphi Murders

The Delphi murders, a case that shook the nation, involved the abduction and brutal killings of two teenage girls in Delphi, Indiana. Richard Allen was eventually convicted based on a combination of forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony, and confessions that played a pivotal role in sealing his fate. This episode seeks to unravel the juror's firsthand experience during the trial and deliberations.

Juror's Experience and Impressions of the Trial

The episode opens with Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee introducing the uniqueness of their interview with a juror from the Delphi case. The juror shares her initial impressions of the trial, highlighting the professionalism of the prosecution team, particularly praising Master Trooper Brian Harshman.

Juror (04:20): "I really like Harshman. I think professionalism goes a long way for me."

However, she notes some skepticism towards defense witnesses, specifically Sarah Cartman, whom the defense effectively discredited. The juror emphasizes the group's commitment to believing the evidence beyond doubt, stating:

Juror (04:20): "When we were evaluating evidence, however you use that word, we really wanted to make sure we just believed it without any shadow of a doubt."

Deliberation Process

The juror provides an in-depth look into the deliberation phase, explaining the absence of structured instructions beyond selecting a foreman. This lack of guidance led the jury to adopt a collaborative approach, with the juror detailing their strategy to map out the timeline of events meticulously.

Juror (06:52): "We made a timeline of everything that we heard... We could put everything on it... that pretty much took a long time."

The juror recounts the meticulous nature of their discussions, particularly focusing on the confessions and the forensic evidence related to the bullet analysis, which she ultimately dismissed due to doubts about its scientific validity.

Juror (05:35): "I don't know if it was the defensive cross on Oberg or Warren's testimony, but one of those or maybe both just really had me skeptical on the bullet."

Challenges During Deliberations

Navigating group dynamics was another significant aspect of the deliberation process. The juror describes challenges such as ensuring every member had a voice and managing conflicting opinions without escalating tensions.

Juror (16:15): "Sometimes some people just aren't the best at working with groups. So people talking over others, things like that."

Despite these challenges, the juror commends her fellow jurors and the foreman for maintaining a respectful and collaborative environment, which facilitated a thorough and balanced deliberation process.

Reaching the Verdict

The decision to convict Richard Allen was a culmination of rigorous deliberation. The juror recounts the emotional weight of voting and witnessing the final decision.

Juror (27:33): "Exactly. We're pretty cordial, like, really the most of the time."

She reflects on the overwhelming feelings post-verdict, highlighting the personal impact and the sense of responsibility carried throughout the process.

Juror (30:49): "I felt like it was maybe, like, almost an ounce of, like, denial or just not wanting it to be the outcome that it is and has to be."

Impact on the Juror

Post-trial, the juror discusses the long-term emotional effects of her experience. She expresses gratitude for the support from fellow jurors and the authorities, noting the availability of counseling services offered by the court.

Juror (34:09): "I personally can't help myself, so I've been doing a little too much Reddit. Oh, no, no, no. Probably unhealthily, yeah. But I. I still do. I think we made the right decision. I really do."

The juror also touches upon the inaccuracies in media portrayals of the trial, emphasizing the importance of factual reporting and the strain of confronting misinformation.

Juror (35:51): "There's a lot of weight to it. So a lot of people are like, I'm not even gonna look at the news and the media. I'm not gonna torture myself. But I. I personally can't help myself, so I've been doing a little too much Reddit."

Conclusion and Reflections

In closing, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee commend the juror for her thoughtful and conscientious approach to the deliberations. The episode underscores the complexity of juror experiences in high-stakes cases and the profound personal impacts such roles entail.

Anya Cain (39:11): "We just want to commend you and thank you for your service in this. I know it was really rough for all of you, but I think, you know, we really tip our hats to you for what you guys gave up and, you know, coming together and trying to make an intelligent and informed decision was."

The hosts reinforce their appreciation for the juror's service and the vital role jurors play in the criminal justice system, ensuring that verdicts are both fair and grounded in evidence.

Key Takeaways

1. Professionalism Matters: The juror highlighted the importance of the prosecution's professionalism, which significantly influenced the jury's perception of the evidence and testimonies.

2. Meticulous Deliberation: The importance of creating detailed timelines and visual aids was emphasized as a critical tool in navigating complex evidence and testimonies.

3. Group Dynamics: Effective communication and inclusive discussions were pivotal in reaching a unanimous decision, showcasing the delicate balance required in jury deliberations.

4. Emotional Toll: Serving as a juror in such a high-profile case has profound emotional effects, underscoring the need for support systems for jurors post-trial.

5. Media Representation: The juror pointed out significant discrepancies between actual trial proceedings and their portrayal in the media, highlighting the challenges of public perception versus reality.

Notable Quotes

• Juror (04:20): "When we were evaluating evidence, however you use that word, we really wanted to make sure we just believed it without any shadow of a doubt."

• Juror (06:52): "We made a timeline of everything that we heard... that pretty much took a long time."

• Juror (16:15): "Sometimes some people just aren't the best at working with groups. So people talking over others, things like that."

• Juror (30:49): "I felt like it was maybe, like, almost an ounce of, like, denial or just not wanting it to be the outcome that it is and has to be."

• Anya Cain (39:11): "We just want to commend you and thank you for your service in this."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Murder Sheet offers a rare and intimate glimpse into the minds of those who bear the weight of delivering justice. Through the juror's candid reflections, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities and emotional burdens that accompany serving on a jury in a case as impactful as the Delphi murders. Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee's journalistic dedication ensures that these personal narratives are preserved with accuracy and respect, honoring both the jurors and the victims of this tragic case.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince.com msheet content warning this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[Anya Cain]

We recently got to interview someone who served on the jury in the Delphi murders case. We asked her all about the experience, her impressions of the attorneys and the witnesses and the evidence and her views on how the jury came to convict Richard Allen of murdering 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams. The Murder Sheet is the first outlet to do an interview with a juror in this case. You may notice that this episode is a bit more edited than our previous first person interview series episodes. The reason for that is we wanted to take care not to include any identifying information about this juror.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This will be the second of two episodes featuring our interview with this juror, so go back and listen to part one first if you've not done so already. These episodes were both being released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in this case and are open to talking to us, please email [e-mail] this is part of our ongoing effort to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in this case. That all changes now.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the deli. First person a juror. Part two.

[Anya Cain]

It now we will get back to our talk with the juror. One witness that stood out to her in particular was Master Trooper Brian Harshman.

[Juror]

I really like Harshman. I think professionalism goes a long way for me. And all these guys were not all. A lot of these people with no ISP and the csi, things like that, they all are very professional. So I, there wasn't anyone that I saw that I like discounted other than Sarah Cartman. I think kind of as a whole we decided to just throw that one out. Not that she's an un like she's a hard to believe person, but I think the defense did a good job trying to discount her. And, and I'm not saying that that's anything bad for her because I, who knows what anyone would do on that situation. Like I'm not a bad person or anything like that. But as far as when we were evaluating evidence, however you use that word, we really wanted to make sure we just believed it without any shadow of a doubt. So anything that anyone was really doubting, we would say, okay, well what if we didn't believe that? Like, would that change the outcome? You know? So kind of let's talk a little bit about Oberg. I, I think for me again, Deadwell's advocate. I and this is kind of a deliberations thing, I guess also testimony. I kind of threw out the, I guess it's the whole science of the bullet. It wasn't Oberg as a person at all. I think she was so professional and did an amazing job. She had so much information. She's so smart and she believes in her science. And that's what I tried to explain to everyone at Deliberations is like, I don't think she's intentionally lying to anyone. I just can't say that I believe for sure that the evidence is exactly. I don't know. So when they brought in, oh, heck, I forget his name. Warren. Dr. Warren. I know that, you know, he evaluated with just using photos and you're definitely not supposed to do that. And I don't know if it was the defensive cross on Oberg or Warren's testimony, but one of those or maybe both just really had me skeptical on the bullet. So in making my decision, I didn't consider it at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what the deliberation process was like and what sort of issues people were considering and weighing?

[Juror]

Yeah. Okay. So something really cool, which I'm sure you guys may even know this already. So what Judge Gold tells us, you know, the instructions for the during, that's really all we get. So no one tells you how to do anything else. They brought us in there to Bayla and they said, figure out who's your foreman. And then that's the only person that can communicate what we need through the bailiff, essentially. So the foreman can only talk to the bailiff and they don't tell you how to come up with a foreman. They're just like figured out we can't tell you do it. So we're like, wait, how? So it is really interesting. We had to just kind of figure out a way to do it. I just figured there was like just a specific way you're supposed to come up with a verdict and talk with a foreman and all that good stuff. But I guess it's however you guys decide to do it. So what we did for our foreman was like a vote essentially. People nominated who they thought and then we just voted for who we wanted. The foreman we had, he was the absolute best choice. And I didn't personally vote for him, so he did a really, really good job. And he had been on juries in the past, so it felt like a good decision. It was. Doctor himself is just a very like professional, well spoken person. So he did a really good job. What we did very first, what I think was so necessary and I think got us to our decision and answered any questions we had throughout deliberations was we made a timeline of everything that we heard. And during this time we kind of, we put everything on it at first. And then if we kind of questioned that evidence, we would kind of remove it. So like Sarah Carbo, for example. But we did it on the map, like, the big map that they. Oh. And I don't know. I think in the podcast, you said the evidence was all, like, in the courtroom. We had all of the physical evidence in our jury room with us. It was in, like, big containers. So anything of, like, the maps or anything that wasn't, like, video evidence we had in there with us. We could go through and do whatever we needed. Yeah. So we have the big picture and then the frame. So we sat there and we put little sticky notes on what times and what happened so we could see on a map, like, when they were passing and what time and when the phone quit moving and things like that, to kind of just put it all and in order, essentially. And then we did it again just on paper. So not like as much of a visual timeline, but more. I guess it's still a visual timeline, but just not on a map. That pretty much took a long time. It took the rest of that first day and then a little bit of that next. That Friday, the following day, we finished it up in the morning. Every day we would do, like, a vote. The alternates had to be in the room, but they weren't allowed to say anything at all, and their notes were not allowed to be used. I thought the whole time, like, I commend the alternates. That would have been a total worse situation to have to do all of that and then not even be a part of the end, like the grand finale, which it was really hard mentally to even be a part of. So maybe it's not that bad, but to have to sit there and not even be able to voice an opinion. I don't know if I could have damaged.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

You said you took several votes.

[Juror]

We did not vote that first day at all.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Juror]

We voted the next day, and that's when it was three, nine to three and decided nine guilty. And that first full day of deliberation, we again finished up the timeline. And then it was our foreman's idea to split into groups. It was groups of three. So we had four groups, and each group had, you know, something they were working on. Group went through the confessions on the sheets made by the suicide companions. So that wasn't my group. One group did all of the phone calls, and then another group, which was mine, did the confessions to Dr. Walla and Dr. Martin, along with noting all of the meds that he was on, like when they started and then when they're administered things like that and how they correspond with all of the different confessions that he had. And I'm sure a lot of people can kind of argue too, that, like, that doesn't matter, but a lot of us were truly considering, you know, maybe, you know, it was an act of psychosis that caused these confessions. We were just at least allowing that to be a possibility.

[Anya Cain]

Right. And, and, and as, as I'm, as. You know, because you've been through this, but when you're dealing with, you know, if there's two explanations and you feel both are plausible and one is favorable to the defendant, you have to go with that one.

[Juror]

Absolutely. Yep. This took a few hours, and then we took a break. For a break. Oh, yeah, this is Another cool thing. So we could take breaks kind of whenever we wanted. They said, like, also, if we wanted, like, we were just at a stalemate, wanted to leave early. It was very relaxed and made to make us comfortable. So whenever we wanted to take a break, our foreman would just notify the bailiff, and then we were allowed to walk around the rotunda. We could go in the courtroom and do whatever. We could just walk around, which was so cool for me because I got to sit in, like, the prosecution chair and kind of see, like, what their view was of everything. And, yeah, so that was pretty cool. Just something smelly.

[Anya Cain]

What did you think of the courthouse itself? I'm just curious. Like, I always found it kind of beautiful, but I'm just. I mean, you guys are in Fort Wayne. Oh, my God, your courthouse kicks butt. So I'm just curious. What. What do you guys thought?

[Juror]

I thought it was beautiful. I actually. After this whole experience, I decided I'm going to go to law school because I. I have a passion for law. And it was. A lot of it was just the courthouse, the way it made me feel being there. I know I said a lot about the fashion. Like, I thought that was really cool. And just being there every day and seeing everyone, it was just really cool. And part of it was the courthouse. I thought it was beautiful. Same with Fort Wayne, too. I do think all the courthouses with the marble and everything is gorgeous. I know one of the jurors, she loved the lights in the courtroom so much, she had Jason take a picture of them so that she could show her family.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's so cute. It's amazing that you can go to law school now. That's. That's very exciting.

[Juror]

Thanks. Yeah, I'm really excited. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Good for you. Honestly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the deliberations actually took several days. Was that a frustrating process?

[Juror]

I thought it was necessary. I feel like, you know, we. We were there for listening to Evans for, like, three weeks. So I felt, you know, a few days to consider everything that we heard is 20 like, or is required almost. I know towards the end, like, there wasn't at any point, like, a time where, like, okay, like, we're soon all gonna vote the same. You know, there wasn't a point where it felt like that. So, like, we went through all the confessions, things like that. This is that Friday. Sorry. We took the break. The rest of the day we spent discussing things and our opinions. And that was the hard part, difficult part. Sometimes some people just aren't the best at working with groups. So people talking over Others, things like that. We went through that a little bit. A lot of Tuesday was just. Seemed to be like just a lot of talking and consideration. That was, again, that was the day we took a vote at the end, and it was three undecided, nine guilty. So that day we decided on Friday, we're like, we're going to need to see. They wanted us to let them know if we're going to need to see video evidence, like, ahead of time, because they had to get both counsels in there, the judge, all of that, and then however long it would take Mullen to get it up on the screen. So all things considered, they wanted us to, like, give a day in advance. So we then just said, well, let's figure out, you know, what we're wanting to see, video wise, and kind of go from there. So we decided we wanted to watch both of the interviews again, mainly Holman, I think. Or no, I think they mainly wanted to see Mullen. I wish I could remember why there was like, something specific in an interview they wanted to see again. And then we also watched the video, the bridge guy video that was edited or remastered or whatever they did to where, you know, so it stays upright and whatnot. And then there was one that it was just the audio of the bridge guy video.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned that you had some issues with that interrogation or interview video with Holman and Alan that played out during the deliberation process. Can you walk us through some of that?

[Juror]

So, again, having, like, no experience on, like, seeing, really interrogations or any experience with that kind of thing, I felt the. Especially Holman, he just kept going at him and going at him and going at him. And even though he said, I'm done, I'm done. Which granted, like, why don't you just get up and walk out? But I was just putting myself in that position. I was like, if. If I was being asked those questions and I didn't know how that got there, how am I going to explain, you know, how it. How it did, if I don't know? So I just felt like it was, like, overdone in a sense. But I mean, that's just coming from me, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What did you make of the confessions? You said that was one of the areas where that you kind of took a lead on.

[Juror]

Yeah, the. Of course, what stands out to everyone is the van, and that's part of the deliberations that. Let me see. So. So Saturday we pretty much, like, watched all of the video evidence and that's all we had time for. We even Stayed late because the videos were pretty long, it being a half day. So we didn't really have much of a discussion that day. But we did take a vote after we watched all the videos. And there was that day, eight guilty and four undecided.

[Anya Cain]

So you went from nine to three to eight to four.

[Juror]

Yes. So clearly, you know, someone else felt that way about the videos, the interviews. Interviews. The benefit of that, that being Saturday, we had like a whole weekend to really think about it, like on our own, just really. And that's what I did. I went straight, straight home. I wrote pages upon pages in my journal. I narrowed it down to like, what do I know for fact and what do I believe? And then, well, are those things enough to warrant unreasonable doubt? And that's kind of what I pondered that whole weekend. So I think that really benefited us having that. And then going back Monday, so to go back to the confessions, one of my things that I had that stood out to me in a sense of thinking that he could be guilty is the mention of the van. Outside of that, I didn't put really any weight to anything else. Although it is very eerie. And looking back, I, I think, like, who, who would, who would confess that many times that didn't actually do that? Like, I, I can't think of any how that would ever happen. But again, it's really hard when you're, when you're asked to. Like, it's not just something that's no big deal if you get it wrong, you know, it's. There's a lot of weight to it.

[Anya Cain]

So, yeah, I'm really struck with, with the thoughtfulness that you put into this and, and what you're saying makes so much sense. Like, yes, we can all sit here now and say that's an awful lot of times to confess, but.

[Juror]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

You don't. Even if there's this, a slight issue with that, you need to set it aside and focus on the things that, you know, matter more.

[Juror]

I guess something I have written in here, there was at least one person. I don't know if there were more, but posing the question of, well, if it wasn't Richard Allen, then who could it have possibly been? There wasn't anyone else wearing those clothes. There wasn't anyone else that, you know, seems subsisted. And where I was at, it just seems like a wrong question to ask because that's not what this is about. We're not seeing as it could be anyone else. It's. Is there enough evidence showing that it's him specifically? Not Is there other evidence showing that it could have been someone else? So I really tried to just focus on the mission. At some point, someone alluded to, we don't need to make a decision out of sympathy. Portraying the people that are undecided just feel bad. And that really got to me that day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There were some other things that this juror kept coming back to, so I.

[Juror]

Know one of them was Rayleigh Voorhees saw Richard Allen. Richard Allen saw Rayleigh Voorhees. Richard Allen said he was there at bedtime window. He said what he was wearing, and it was the same exact closest bridge guy. So once you get to that, there's really no disputing that Richard Allen is bridge guy. That's what I think we got to first. Like, does anyone disagree that Richard Allen's bridge guy and you really. No one did. You really can't. So if he's written, if he's bridge guy, how do we know if he was the kidnapper and murderer? Which after realizing he's bridge guy was pretty easy to add all of those things together, but really just things that he reported himself is really what got me closer to Yogi.

[Anya Cain]

Sounded like the timeline was perhaps more important than you for. Than any of this sort of flashier confessions, maybe, with the exception of the van.

[Juror]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you said you didn't even take the bullet into consideration because of your doubts about the science.

[Juror]

Yep.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious, you know, like, you mentioned kind of people kind of getting a little bit on each other's nerves. Like, did it get heated? How did people come back from that?

[Juror]

It was a lot more relaxed than I thought it would be. I thought there would be a lot more turmoil than there was. There's really this one time where not everyone was getting a chance to talk. You know, like, when you have a big group of people, there's certain people that talk most of the time. And we were running into that, and it's like we need everyone to have discussion, you know. So after that, that was pretty much it. And there wasn't really any hard feelings. I mean, we all realized that we're totally random people. You know, we're not friends, and we're stuck in this hotel together, like, for so long, and we're around each other all the time. The only people we see, like, of course there's going to be a little bit of something, you know, feelings. But outside of that, it's a total different relationship because it. It would be hard to be on top of someone that you don't really Know and constantly be around them and have discussions with them in general. So, you know, even if it was, you know, your spouse. So we realized, you know, we're around each other a lot, we're probably going to have feelings, but now that we're not in that situation, our feelings for each other are a lot different.

[Anya Cain]

That, that makes so much sense.

[Juror]

We're able to, like, separate that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's like heat of the moment.

[Juror]

Exactly. We're pretty cordial, like, really the most of the time.

[Anya Cain]

What was the feeling like in the room when you realized, wait, we're anonymous now?

[Juror]

Oh, my God. Yeah. So I have a lot to say about that. That Monday was the best deliberation discussion day we had had. We, again, like I said, we had the weekend. So I know, at least for me, I had the points that I like I said that I know for a fact that I believe, evidence wise and everyone, we essentially, the people that were undecided, our foreman wanted us to make a list of what we do know and what we do believe. So we did that. We wrote down those different points and then we had a discussion. And we did the opposite too, of like, what don't we believe? And like I said before, like, does that affect what, that there's still a possibility that Richard Allen is guilty or, you know, do we need to have a discussion about it to see, you know, where it really stands so, you know, the bullet and those kind of things. But yeah, we had just like an open discussion. The people that he was guilty had discussion with people that thought undecided. And then we decided to take a vote. After I heard the first few guilties, I just knew once the last one was read, our foreman, like, couldn't believe it. He was like, are you serious? Unanimous. And I'm like crying at this point because I already knew, like, I was gonna be done. And just. It was such an overwhelming feeling. Just like one that it's over, two, it's deciding. That's pretty sad. But the outcome, like, sucks either way. Like, it. It just was really, really hard for me.

[Anya Cain]

But even after the jury did its job and came to a decision, there was still a bit of a delay before the verdict was actually delivered.

[Juror]

They said Kathy Allen was out of town, I guess, and like, when it's supposed to be. So it took a while for everyone to get there. We waited in that jury room for so long and the anticipation of reading the verdict was just so, so crazy. They made it to where, like, it was a really big deal of us, like, getting out of the courthouse and into the vans just because they figured the media would be crazy. They literally had us, like, after we read the verdict, like, get up really fast. Run, like, seriously run out of the courthouse, like, down the stairs, out. And then we get stopped by a train, like, right there.

[Anya Cain]

Can't escape Delphi.

[Juror]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

That happened to us the day we were trying to get out to record really quickly so we could do something else. So, yeah, we. We can relate. Wow, that's. That's incredible. And. And, you know, you mentioned the overwhelming emotion of it. Can you talk us through a little bit more about that? Like, was anyone scared to almost hand down a punishment because they, like, you know, I mean, it would mean sending him to prison potentially for a life. Were people considering that, or were people, like, how. What was the feeling?

[Juror]

Yeah, I think I consider that a lot, to the point where it was really hard for me to. I felt like it was maybe, like, almost an ounce of, like, denial or just not wanting it to be the outcome that it. It is and has to be, because I. I just kept telling myself, like, he's not gonna last. Like, it's gonna be really bad. And it. It made me sad. It's hard for just, like, little me to, you know, come up with a decision like that. I. I would say out of everyone, I definitely had the worst time. But everyone afterwards really thanked me for. And not just me, but just the undecided people that were. Because they caused us to really dissect everything and just make sure. So they said, we're really glad that we did that, and that way we can feel, you know, most comfortable in our decision and, like, lay our heads down at night and feel like we made the right choice.

[Anya Cain]

For what it's worth. And this is just kind of me talking. I think you guys made the right choice. But it makes me feel so good that you made a choice that was so informed and so based on the facts and not just, like, gut, you know, oh, this guy seems weird. You know what I mean? Like, that's the word. That's the. That's the fear. Whenever you're dealing with a case like this, you want someone to be convicted for the right reasons, not for nonsense like that.

[Juror]

Right. And they. And we. You're right. I mean, we definitely, like, are glad we did that. And just. We were scared, too. Like, we knew we weren't hearing everything, like, because it was pretty obvious in court that there were things that weren't being told to us for whatever reason. So we're like, you Know, are we gonna, like, find all this stuff out that was hidden from us and then change our minds or, you know, just the what if. So a lot of people are like, I'm not even gonna look at the news and the media. I'm not gonna torture myself. But I. I personally can't help myself, so I've been doing a little too much Reddit. Oh, no, no, no. Probably unhealthily, yeah. But I. I still do. I think we made the right decision. I really do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you think about some of those things not being included in the trial? Do you think it would have been helpful to have some of that information, or do you think the judge made.

[Juror]

The right decision to answer that question fully? I would like to know. Like, I know there were other suspects, I guess, but my thought is they know more than we do of, like, things that are possible and could be, you know, a potential suspect and not. And if it was found to not have a nexus or whatever it is, then I. I trust their judgment, honestly.

[Anya Cain]

Right. We were just in the gallery, but we didn't have the added pressure of having to make a decision here. And on top of that, though, like, we. We saw what you saw in terms of a lot of the really horrible images that were presented in this trial, and we just wanted to ask, like, how did that affect you? How did that affect your fellow jurors? Are you guys doing okay now?

[Juror]

Yeah. Good question. I surprisingly. And I'm like a really emotional person, so I was honestly concerned going into it about myself, but I've been okay. I don't think I'll ever forget, like, what I saw. I guess there's some kind of feeling of, at least we did what was supposed to happen. I truly think we were all put there for a reason, like, all the people that were there. Like, I've said that from the beginning, and I don't know how it's affecting. I haven't really talked to really anyone else. I kind of got home and hermited myself for a while just because, I don't know, like, it was too lose the holidays and things like that, but just to kind of figure out how I feel. I did make a really good friend, and we spent a lot of the time throughout the process together, and we haven't even had that conversation of, you know, it's. I text her, you know, on sentencing, like, hope you're doing well, but it's not really talking about, you know, how we're doing. They offered us anyone that want counseling or anything. They're Offering it. Judge Go gave us her information and we're just with the color if we ever need anything.

[Anya Cain]

You kind of emerging back into society after this and you're seeing all this media coverage and you mentioned kind of going on some of the social media sites to see, you know, what do you, what are your thoughts on how it's been covered? Do you feel it's been accurate, inaccurate? Are there kind of misconceptions, a lot.

[Juror]

Of inaccuracy and you guys have even talked about some of them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The juror sampled some of the YouTube trial coverage and found it to have been quite inaccurate. She was too classy to call out individual creators.

[Juror]

I people saying like, you know, like Judge Goal telling people things that like didn't actually happen. Or I saw things of like the jurors, like there are jurors crying and doing this and that which was so inaccurate. I don't know. It's the general. I haven't like I listen to your guys podcast like from start to finish and that's about all the, like I've read some articles which they're more the stuff I see like article wise and like on social media, like outside of like videos and podcasts and things, they're more just like attention grabbing. So they, they're more dramatized I guess, like not necessarily incorrect, but they just make it sound way more like intense than it really was. Things like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, thank you for listening to all of our episodes.

[Anya Cain]

Those are a lot of hours, a lot of rambling.

[Juror]

Oh yeah, yeah, no, it took me a while and I think you guys did a really, really good job of making sure it was accurate. And I think that's important because you know, you ask, you know, what have I seen that's inaccurate? A lot of it is really like the comments that people are saying on things like that. It's really hard not to like comment back. Like you weren't even there, you know, like how could you have like this much of an opinion? Like you only heard what other people said happened. So it's really just the people in society that just think they know everything that happened without even being there for.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And yeah, thank you. That means a lot that you, that you, what you said about our coverage because you know, we're not perfect but we really tried to get it right because it's important, you know, and it's important that people. This really happened and it's a sad situation. It deserves accuracy and respect. Was there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention? Or you think it's important for people to know.

[Juror]

I feel like, honestly, I've covered, like, a lot of my experience, and it's been nice to talk about it because, you know, I haven't talked about it, and I think that starts the healing process. And, you know, it didn't. We didn't go through it as, like, humans and all of that. Like, our family members didn't die and aren't going to prison, but it was still a lot. Like, I think we'll forever be paged for it. And like I said, the group we had was amazing. Everyone was amazing. Our bailiffs were more than amazing. Seriously, like, did anything we ever needed. And it was really built around making sure we were comfortable. I think everyone realized, you know, we were going through a difficult situation and the Bayless have to leave their families, too, and don't go home and that. So, yeah, I think everyone did it right, and I'm glad that we can go home and go back to life and feel like we did the right.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I just want to commend you for the thoughtfulness that you and your fellow jurors put into this process. And it's just obvious from talking with you how much care you took with the decision. So we just want to commend you and thank you for your service in this. I know it was really rough for all of you, but I think, you know, we. We really tip our hats to you for what you guys gave up and, you know, coming together and trying to make an intelligent and informed decision was. Was. I just. Thank you.

[Juror]

Yeah, absolutely. And something funny, too. We all believe that we should be off the jury coal list forever, indefinitely, but only for two years so you might see us again.

[Anya Cain]

No, that's not fair.

[Juror]

Yeah. We said, judge Goldis is crazy. And he said, well, like, she gave us her card and stuff. So he said, well, if you do get picked, just call me and I'll get it taken care of.

[Anya Cain]

Good. I'm glad.

[Juror]

I believe you guys shouldn't ever have to do it again either.

[Anya Cain]

You really should not. Thanks very much to this juror for taking the time to talk to us. We so appreciate the care she and her fellow jurors took with their deliberation and commend them for their service.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And, and they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you are, one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to via hemp.com and use the code M sheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code M sheet at checkout, spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the Murder Sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this Episode. Can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That can seem daunting.

[Juror]

It.

[Anya Cain]

It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor you important [e-mail] can we talk.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It Looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also like I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.commsheet that's q u I n c e.comm s h E E T.