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- [00:00]
Rebecca Patty
The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the Roaring twenties and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our Immersive Travels feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready? Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS.
- [00:30]
Anya Cain
You deserve little luxuries, items and experiences that make your day special that lighten your mood. Well, if you want luxury that won't break the bank, you ought to check out our wonderful sponsor, Quince. Do not miss out.
- [00:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Quince is a brand that's providing luxury products for all of us ordinary people. Silk shirts and dresses that are not only quality made but also washable. 14 karat gold jewelry for when you want something sparkly sweaters of Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. Those are the kind of premium products that Quince offers at a great price.
- [01:03]
Anya Cain
All Quint's items are 50% to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. Plus, Murder Sheet listeners are going to get a great deal on shipping and returns, but Quints is able to do all of this by cutting out the middleman the savings pass on to you. And just remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're really supporting us.
- [01:21]
Kevin Greenlee
We recently gifted ourselves some luxurious pieces from Quince. I got their suede bomber jacket and I love it. And whenever I wear it out I get lots of compliments, which of course I enjoy. It is also highly functional and comfortable and I've really appreciated it during this cold Indiana winter.
- [01:42]
Anya Cain
Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quincee.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.
- [02:02]
Rebecca Patty
Today, the beverage aisle looks a lot different than it used to. America's beverage companies are working together. We're delivering the options everyone wants. In fact, nearly 60% of beverages Americans buy have zero sugar. You'll find more variety than ever, including more of your favorites now available with zero sugar. You'll also find more sizes and clear calorie information on the front of every can, bottle and pack. We know when it comes to finding balance, the more choices, the better.
- [02:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.
- [02:38]
Anya Cain
Libby German and Abby Williams were real people, real girls. They lived, they went to school, they did sports, they had friends, they had families, they faced the typical stressors that teenagers face. They had dreams about what they were going to do with their lives. Richard Allen made his series of heinous choices on February 13, 2017, and he took away their chance to grow up. Sometimes when I see the Internet abuzz over some far fetched theory or people salivating over the latest gruesome details, I just want to pause. I want to ask people to consider for a moment that these girls were real people and their families are still reeling over their deaths. I want to ask people, how would you feel if they were members of your family? Can we grapple with the tragedy for a moment? Can we show some basic human compassion to those who lost these girls? Because sometimes I feel like that's been lacking in a lot of discussions I've seen about this case.
- [03:36]
Kevin Greenlee
For today's first person interview, we will speak to someone close to the victims. We will speak to Libby's grandmother and guardian, Becky. Patty. Becky and her family, along with Abby's family, went through the unimaginable. In the years since 2017, Becky took to social media and the true crime world to raise awareness about the Delphi case. At trial, she testified, the sentencing hearing, she looked right at Richard Allen and told him what his crime had done to their family.
- [04:07]
Anya Cain
This interview took place a little while ago, before the birth of Becky's newest grandchild. Congratulations to the entire family on that, by the way. We'll focus on who Libby was, her personality, her interests, the memories Becky has of her, how this precocious girl is still at the heart of their family. The conversation will get into the cruelty that these families can experience at the hands of Internet mobs and disingenuous creators who seek to cast them in the role of villains to fit their conspiratorial narrative. Hopefully this talk can give some insight to other families of murder victims who find themselves in this terrible situation.
- [04:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Now that the gag order has been lifted, Becky and others close to the case are free to speak about their experiences. This episode is part of our first person interview series. We seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in the Delphi case as possible. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us, email us@murdersheetmail.com this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.
- [05:18]
Anya Cain
My name is Anya Cain.
- [05:20]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [05:23]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [05:25]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [05:34]
Anya Cain
And this is the Delphi Murders. First person, Becky. Patty, I guess, to start off. Becky, how are you doing?
- [06:25]
Rebecca Patty
I'm doing fine. Beginning to start our new life. I guess you could call it that. We don't have to focus around this case 24 7. We're being able to start focusing on the family again. With that, a new little addition that will definitely take up a lot of our time. So we are starting the new chapter in our life. I do believe that is wonderful.
- [06:58]
Anya Cain
And also congratulations. That. That is amazing. And I hope. I hope you all are doing okay with that transition. I imagine aspects of it can be difficult.
- [07:09]
Rebecca Patty
You know, you can be right in the middle of something just wonderful happen, happening, and then you realize Libby's not here to share that. That. That comes out of the blue. You don't even think about. You're going to think something like that. It's just there. While it's very sad, we feel that we're still sharing with her. I guess you could. That's how. That's how we deal with it. We just stop and think. Okay. We're in our own way, we're still sharing with her.
- [07:39]
Anya Cain
And I want to ask you a bit about that is, you know, how do you all kind of keep Libby in the front of your minds every day when you're going through that and kind of keep her a part of your family's life even though she's not here?
- [07:51]
Rebecca Patty
Well, if you would listen to us, talk to each other and stuff, it's almost like she's still here. Maybe it's just hard. Maybe none of us just want to accept that Hogan is permanent. So we've kind of put her into where she's still part of us. We just don't see her. So we don't. We don't. We just. We still include her in everything. And whenever we do something, we discuss how Libby would do this, how this would with her included. We still think of her when we plan in.
- [08:29]
Anya Cain
Like, vacations, family parties, things like that.
- [08:32]
Rebecca Patty
Every. Everything. Everything she did with one of the kids that aren't here, she's just still included. We'll never forget her. She'll never be far from the front of her mind. When you lose a loved one like that, you just don't. They just. They will always. They will always remain there.
- [08:55]
Anya Cain
And just from what we've gotten to know about Libby over time. She just seems like a truly special and extraordinary young person.
- [09:03]
Rebecca Patty
She truly was. And I know people brag about their kids and think that their kid was awesome, that even trying to be an unbiased person, she was special. And I really realized that after. And it's unfortunate that this all comes out after something tragic happened, because I had several of her teachers and people that just knew her that would come to me and tell me stories or say, Becky, Libby. Libby was wonderful. And the little things that she would do, even for her teachers and staff, and she just did. She just did little things. And they would just send me some of the things that she did. One teacher was cleaning out his desk because he was leaving, and he sent me a screenshot of something she had written to him. And she said, you know, she always shows up when we meet her. So she had this impact on people even after she was gone. So that has shown me when they have come to me and said things, the type of. The type of person she was.
- [10:22]
Anya Cain
And it's really come out to me in particular. One thing that kind of sticks out to me is just how. I don't know. Mature, insightful, but also very intelligent. She was. I think everyone always hears about. She was in all these sports, but she was really excelling at the academics. It sounds like what.
- [10:40]
Rebecca Patty
As a matter of fact, she was in advanced classes. She was so used to not having to stay study that when they finally put her in a class, especially math, because she was a wiz at math, and they finally got up there far enough that she didn't understand clumpy. And it was very hard for her to learn how to study because everything had always come so easy. And she struggled for a little bit. She was not happy. And I said, libby, this is. This is how it is for the rest of us. This is what we have always. You just understood. You're just exceptionally smart. So welcome to our world. I. You know, I was glad for that to have happened because Garrick was the same way in school. Very, very intelligent, and he had a very hard time and ended up dropping out because of not knowing how to study. So I am. I'm glad that they did what they did for her in school to teach her how to be able to do that. And she looked at life in general different.
- [11:55]
Anya Cain
How so?
- [11:57]
Rebecca Patty
Well, because she was so mature. I mean, she was logical. She looked at things very logically, and you don't do that at 13. She had just turned 14. So really, she was still 13. Most of the most 13 year olds just aren't as logical as what she was. And she, she used to come in and she'd say, you know, I should just be a psychiatrist. All of my friends come to me to help them solve their problems. But that's because she was rational and she would talk things out with the other kids. So. And that's just how, that's just how she looked at life.
- [12:37]
Anya Cain
I love that. And yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't normally associate adolescents with, with the word logical, but it's what's come out about her is that she really was able to kind of provide those insights beyond her years.
- [12:50]
Rebecca Patty
Yes, she was, she was. And I think that she was structured. No matter what she would have done in life had it been law enforcement, had it been going into science to research illnesses and diseases, or had it been just being a teacher or something with children, whatever she would have decided to do, I think she would have done it with great passion and would have made a difference in this world. That's just how she was.
- [13:22]
Anya Cain
You know, one thing that came up a lot, you know, at trial, especially in Nicholas McClelland's closing, was just that, you know, one of her, you know, when you're that age, you so many possibilities, you're looking at different possible careers and passions. One thing that came up for her was, you know, helping police solve crimes. Perhaps as a forensic scientist or something. Do you know where that came out of, where that interest was sort of born out of?
- [13:45]
Rebecca Patty
Well, that was. She loved crime shows, love to sit there and we would all try to figure out, okay, who did it. She loved trying to solve a mystery and that's kind of what problem crime is, is just solving a mystery. And she was good at it. And she loved digging in, digging into things. When just like I had stated before that she took a mini med class at Purdue, it was on super Saturdays and she loved it. They dissected things and looked, looked into the inside at stuff and she loved it. That was kinda. And she was probably in third, fourth, fourth grade maybe at that time. And that was when she said, grandma, I want to do this, I want to do this and help stop crying. So she developed that passion early on.
- [14:48]
Anya Cain
That is awesome. Did she have any favorite shows? I'm just curious. Or do you remember any?
- [14:53]
Rebecca Patty
I cannot for the life of me, I cannot remember the name of it. I can. The actress had reddish hair, it was long and in it. She was a surgeon that was in a wreck and she could no longer do surgery. So she ended up doing the autopsies. And she worked with the FBI guys and helped them solve crime. And she loved that we would, we would record that, but we were to record several of them. You know, csi, she likes csi. And we would, we would binge watch and we, we would. We would call in bed and get popcorn and binge watch all of the crime shows that we recorded for the week, but she just loved watching them.
- [15:36]
Anya Cain
That sounds super cozy and nice.
- [15:39]
Rebecca Patty
It was, it was, that was like our. That was what we considered it our family night. And we did it every week.
- [15:46]
Anya Cain
I'm curious. You know, one thing that also struck me about Libby just again, hearing. Hearing people who knew her talk about her, was she seemed to be very gregarious. Like she had that personality where she was going to, you know, be friendly and outgoing. Is that, is that fair to say?
- [16:04]
Rebecca Patty
Oh, yeah. She. She would. If she saw somebody sitting alone over the corner, she would talk to him. If somebody was being bullied, she would stick up for them. She was always for the underdog. She. She was a protector. She. She truly was. And I, I told somebody the other day, I just ran across one of her papers. It came up. I had posted it at one time, I don't remember when, and it came up on my time hop, and I reread it about where she was talking about. She wished people wouldn't judge people on just their looks.
- [16:46]
Anya Cain
Like even at that age when, when everyone's obsessed about that, she's like thinking about things like that.
- [16:52]
Rebecca Patty
Yeah, yeah, well. And she was a bigger built girl, you know, she was stocky. She wasn't one of those teeny, teeny little things. So she knew firsthand she'd been on the other end when people would make fun of people. So she understood it and she would just stick up for him.
- [17:15]
Anya Cain
It sounds like that was born out of some empathy where she could understand where people might not fit in or they might be teased. So she's basically, instead of letting that get to her, she's like, I'm going to stick up for other people.
- [17:25]
Rebecca Patty
That's exactly what she would do.
- [17:27]
Anya Cain
That's awesome. She just sounds like a great kid, and I just want people to understand.
- [17:32]
Rebecca Patty
That, yes, she was. She's greatly missed and the world lost out on a great person.
- [17:41]
Anya Cain
Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about one of our favorite people who also happens to do one of our favorite podcasts. Obviously, I'm talking about Jason Blair and his show, the Silver Linings Handbook.
- [17:54]
Kevin Greenlee
You probably recognize Jason's name because We've been on his show and he's been on ours to talk about true crime, ethics and the media. He's always got thoughtful insights to share, plus he's got all kinds of ideas on how to make true crime a more respectful and compassionate space.
- [18:10]
Anya Cain
The Silver Linings Handbook is a weekly podcast that's totally interview centric, so you get to hear Jason's in depth conversations with all kinds of inspiring people. You'll hear discussions about well being, mental health, the law and the criminal justice system, true crime, religion and marginalized communities, and just about everything in between. For all you true crime fans, he's had on the hosts of the Prosecutors, the Consult and yours truly.
- [18:35]
Kevin Greenlee
Jason is a wonderful person with a seemingly endless well of compassion and empathy for others that serves him quite well as an interviewer. We were really gripped by his recent conversations with the daughter of a murdered police detective, the sister of a missing native woman in Montana, and Gabby Petito's father. These were all humanistic and in depth talks that got to the heart of topics like grief, advocacy and abuse.
- [19:00]
Anya Cain
We've always enjoyed our conversations with Jason on the Silver Linings Handbook and behind the scenes, getting to listen to his show is a bit like dropping by for one of those talks.
- [19:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [19:14]
Rebecca Patty
Did you know that parents rank financial.
- [19:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Literacy as the number one most difficult.
- [19:18]
Rebecca Patty
Life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications.
- [19:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Kids learn to earn, save and spend.
- [19:34]
Rebecca Patty
Wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com wondry it's.
- [19:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Just such a tragedy. And the more we learn about Libby and Abby, just the more upsetting it is. I wanted to ask you though, since this tragedy happened all those years ago, you've come to know a variety of people in law enforcement. Can you tell us about them and how you view the law enforcement officers who worked on this case?
- [20:14]
Rebecca Patty
You know, before this happened, we were happily living life in our own little bubble. Never had much, never had a lot of interaction with law enforcement. So I, I couldn't say much about how they were. But once this happened, we came to know some very well. We worked with many of them. I can say that everyone that we have come in contact with were very professional and we could tell they were Working very hard. And the ones that were in the main core of the investigators, we came to know very well. And they, they lived this case. You could tell it was personal with them, and they were never going to give up. I have so much respect for them because even when there was rabbit hole after rabbit hole and different. Different directions that they had to go, they continued. And even when it didn't look very promising here and there, it got very sweet, low. And to us, it didn't seem like anything was going on. They didn't. They didn't give up. If, if things, if things weren't going, they would go back to the beginning and, and go back and start over and to see if they missed something. So they never slowed down at all. They just, they just didn't. And we were very fortunate to have a team that worked together as well as this team did. And when we would, when we would start getting down, they would be the ones that propped us up and gave us hope. They really did. They helped a lot in giving us hope.
- [22:20]
Kevin Greenlee
You talk about how they kept on working, even in the darker moments when maybe there were some concerns there wouldn't be an arrest and there wouldn't be a conviction. And I wonder, were there ever any times over these last eight years now where you wondered if a conviction would ever happen?
- [22:40]
Rebecca Patty
First off, we wouldn't allow ourselves to go there. Plus, through all this, at different places that we have been, we have met several families that are walking the same walk. We were walking, and there were several of them that had been walking this walk for a long time. And in talking to them and listening to them, I realized if these people after all these years, after 20 years, can keep going and not give up hope and put themselves out there, then we can too. And we. That gave us the strength not to give up hope. And we're fortunate some of those people are still walking without their cases solved.
- [23:35]
Anya Cain
Gosh. I, I mean, you out. You, Your family really did go very public with your advocacy for Libby. Really keeping the case in the forefront, keeping the conversation going. Um, was that at some point sort of a conscious decision? Did you sort of fall into that? Can you just tell us about your journey in terms of that advocacy?
- [23:59]
Rebecca Patty
In the beginning, of course, you're kind of in a day as. You don't. You, you, you don't know. At, at the very first, we weren't doing anything, and then we had a friend that was set up at a festival a county over. They were county north of us, and they called us, and this was like in August, and said, do you realize there's a lot of people right up here, a county over, that's not even heard of your case? And we thought, oh, wow, that was. That was something. That was something to hear that. And we thought, how are. How are they going to get the tip? How are they going to find this guy if people don't even know about it, to help? So that was when we made the decision. Okay, okay. That's when we started the flyer campaign and started going everywhere we possibly could to tell the story, to tell about the girls. We set up at festivals every week. We went anywhere, everywhere that somebody would have us so that we could tell about the girls and try to get help. And we decided that was what we could do best for the police. And we had asked them several times, what. What do you want us to do? And they would always, like, just keep doing what you're doing. And yes, we did come out and we were very vocal. And sometimes I wonder if we should have done that or not. But when I sat back and think about it, I don't think I would change it. And by coming out and being vocal, you also make yourself a target. We realized that. And we realized that if that's what we had to put ourselves through, if that's what it took to keep people talking, then so be it. At least their story was getting out there. And we chose to do whatever it took to raise awareness.
- [26:03]
Kevin Greenlee
You did become a target, certainly on social media. There were people out there that I frankly would describe as cranks who really targeted your family in ways that really often seemed just cruel, vile, and despicable. Can you talk about the social media landscape that grew up around this case?
- [26:24]
Rebecca Patty
What I seen on social media is a lot of times somebody will say something that maybe isn't true, and it gets repeated and repeated and repeated till finally nobody even knows who started it, but they start believing it because they heard it. And enough people are now saying it. You can't stop that. And in the beginning, I would come out and I would try to tell them the truth. You know, people say that we changed our story throughout, and I don't know that my story changed more than a couple of minutes. And when the girls were dropped off, that. That was because I had gone back and found through phone records a closer time. So I changed it. Ten minutes wasn't a big deal, but obviously to some people, that's a big deal. Sometimes Kelsey would say things that in the beginning she remembered one way, but just like me, three times Three times. You'll be sitting there and something will pop in. It's like, oh my gosh. Oh yeah. Now, now this makes sense since I didn't remember something one way or if we would find out something from the police because I am the one that gave the description of Libby when they started searching for her. And when she left the house, she was in a tie dye T shirt. I did not know that. Later she grabbed a sweatshirt, had no clue. So when I gave the description that night, I did not include the sweatshirt. And there's been a whole lot of slack over that. And when I saw Libby sitting on the floor shortly before she left, she had on sweat. And it wasn't until later when the police, we were talking with the police did I find out that she had on June. Had she changed those? She may have. And when she said goodbye to me, she was standing at the door behind a desk. So did I see her pants? No. Did I think anything about that? No. So that's why I gave the description that I gave because that's what I remember. Kelsey did not give a description because at the time when I gave the description to the police, she had been at work, she wasn't there. They need a description then. And then they talk about how our times changed for like drop off. Oh, it started out 1:00 and then it ended up to, you know, 1:40. Well, we never said 1:00. I, I do remember because I had told him that she left about 1:30. And I do remember on the news that night they said that they left at 1:00. Well, to me at that point in time, first off, the news said. And I didn't. And did it really, did it really matter in finding the girls at that time? No. So there, you know, there's a lot of things that just kind of come out different that really isn't a big deal. You know, there's people saying that the girls were never even dropped off and Kelsey's car is on video. The police could see it, but they just, you know, if you was to come out and say that, oh, prove it. Well, you know, the police aren't going to give us those videos. So I mean there's just lots of things. Another big thing is people used to say, and they still do sometimes, that, oh, Becky said to Mike, they got our girls. She said, I'm Dr. Phil. Well, you know, somebody had recorded Dr. Phil on their VCR and let them have this, that let them hear it. I mean, it can't be changed. When it's on your VCR tape. But the people didn't want to hear because then they said, oh, no, they edited that out. You can't find it anymore. Well, somebody ship said, no, I recorded it. It's not in there. Well, then it must have been somewhere else. And at one time, I finally said to the people, just show me. Show me where I said it. Of course they're saying everything's been edited, but every time you come out and try to tell the truth, they don't want to. You know, they don't want to hear it.
- [31:09]
Anya Cain
I would argue they don't care about it because, I mean, the goalposts are constantly moving on you guys in particular. And. And if you. If you have people who are dealing in good faith and really want to know when they're presented evidence that what they believe is not true, they should back off that opinion. But these people refuse to.
- [31:27]
Rebecca Patty
And that in the beginning, I didn't use Facebook or social media for anything more than being in contact with my family and farmville, you know, playing a game. That was the extent of my using social media.
- [31:46]
Anya Cain
I love farmville, by the way. I was all over that back in the day.
- [31:50]
Rebecca Patty
Farm bill and cafe world. So when I found out that there were these groups for me, Tara and I, we went into them because I thought at that point that, oh, my gosh, all of these people want to help. They want to help us. So, you know, any question they would ask, we answered, okay, if this will help, Is this to help them find clues? Let's answer. Let's answer. Let's answer. If I had it to do all over again, I probably wouldn't do that, because I know now, I know that a lot of those people aren't coming out to help you. They're coming out to twist your words and whatever. And, you know, every single one of us in our family, the police know exactly where we were and what we were doing. That's all been. Our whereabouts have all been accounted for. But you sure can't tell them that.
- [32:54]
Anya Cain
Well, now the police are in the conspiracy now. So the goal posts move yet again.
- [33:01]
Rebecca Patty
Yeah, And I. I do want to clear up one thing.
- [33:04]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [33:05]
Rebecca Patty
Nick McLeland has never, ever been related to Libby, ever, by marriage or any other way. I just want to clear that up. That didn't happen. What happened was, who is now Terry German, a long time ago, was married to next uncle. No relation. She's no relation to us. None. Her and Nick's uncle got a divorce, and later on, she Married Libby's grandpa, which makes her now grandma by marriage. But when she was married to McLeland, no relation to us. So Nick has never, ever been tied as a family member to our family.
- [34:04]
Anya Cain
That's a fact that's good to clear up. And. And that's just being in a small town. I mean, Delphi, Carroll county, this is like, it's, you know, it's not a Metropolis teeming with people. Exactly.
- [34:16]
Rebecca Patty
Right, Right. Yeah. Everybody goes to school with everybody. You've only got two. Two schools in the whole county. So, no, we were never intertwined. It was never a conflict of interest for him to be the prosecutor there. Again, that's just people rushing the judgment, I think.
- [34:40]
Anya Cain
Just people making stuff up. To be blunt, at this point, I think. I think. I really think with your family, in particular with the families in this case, there's a. People are uncomfortable with something horrible happening to good people, so they have to cast you all in the role of villains to basically make themselves feel okay about our very disturbing and random world. But that's just me editorializing.
- [35:03]
Rebecca Patty
I know. That's make right.
- [35:07]
Anya Cain
No, it's sick. I mean, it's like they. They don't want to have to accept that just horrible things happen. They have to try to see patterns in everything in order to feel okay in the world. But it's just.
- [35:20]
Kevin Greenlee
And then by doing that, they make more horrible things happen because they victimize innocent people who are already suffering.
- [35:25]
Anya Cain
Exactly.
- [35:28]
Rebecca Patty
Well, finally you get to a point that you just don't let them get to you anymore. I'm sure on some of them, they're so ridiculous. I just. I can think, boy, oh, boy, you know, they're looking like a fool.
- [35:43]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, we're talking about people on social media, but there's also people in. I don't know where you would describe them, but there's. There's people out there, like, frankly, Bob Mata, who spread information about the case, even sit with the family of the accused man, the Allens. What do you make of people like that?
- [36:05]
Rebecca Patty
I'm still trying to figure him out. There's a few. A couple that I'm just trying to figure out. I don't understand. I don't understand how you've been sat in hearings, sat in trial, and come out, and you're supposed to be telling what all happened, that you can't report what real. What really happened. That confuses me. Or if you do come out and say something and it. And it's proven wrong in court, why don't you have let's, let's put it this. Why don't you have the balls come out and say, yeah, I was wrong? But they don't. They don't. They, they just cover it and go on?
- [36:59]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think why let the truth get in the way of good conspiracy theory? I'm wondering, you know, as far as, you know, there have been on social media and just throughout the focus on this case, there have been, I think, good things. I think some Facebook groups, people who are doing stuff, you know, are, are trying their best. And I think there are a lot of people out there who do genuinely care about Libby and Abby and the case. You know, what would your recommendations be for people, you know, who are following a case on how to raise awareness and engage with that case in a way that's respectful and not completely out of control?
- [37:40]
Rebecca Patty
I don't think you're ever going to be able to stop that, not in today's world.
- [37:44]
Anya Cain
What about for the people who want to do good, who want, who maybe are not sure about how to go about that, but they want, they have a good intention.
- [37:55]
Rebecca Patty
Have the facts. That's the best thing that you can do for any case is only put the facts out there. And that's what we have asked throughout this whole thing. Just put out the truth. Not rumors, not speculation, not. Oh, I know without anything to back it up, that, that, that's all you can do, is put out facts so that people can make an informed opinion on their own.
- [38:28]
Anya Cain
You know, this is one question I had and, and this is, I really feel like you guys, with the advocacy you did for, for Libby and this case and just doing things like talking about the case in the media, going to CrimeCon, raising awareness, continuing to do that even in the face of some of this very unfair and horrible nonsense that you had to face online. What would your advice be for families who find themselves in a similar situation at the heart of a major case?
- [38:55]
Rebecca Patty
First thing I would say is, so don't take all that stuff personally. Those people don't know you. They don't know your character. They're just out there for the entertainment. So don't let them get to you. That, that's probably the most important thing that, that I've learned is you, you have to learn to, to become thick standard. Just don't let them get to you. You have to. And every family has to make the decision whether they're going to put themselves out there or not. And sometimes you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. So I don't know that in any high profile case or any other, if people think you do the right decision no matter what you do. So you have to do what you feel is right. And we felt it was right to be outspoken.
- [39:59]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. And is there a way that you were able to stay sane mentally while dealing with this that you would be able to pass on to other people who might find themselves in that situation.
- [40:12]
Rebecca Patty
At that point in time, all you can do is really gather us support, a support system. We are fortunate that we have a very large family and lots of great friends that kind of wrapped around us and supported us. Everybody needs a support system through all of this. And that's my recommendation to try to get a support system.
- [40:45]
Anya Cain
One truly horrible out aspect of this case, beyond just the underlying horrific crime, is that photos that never should have leaked out to the public, leaked out to the public and continue to circulate online. What, what has that meant for your family and Abby's family?
- [41:03]
Rebecca Patty
That means that we deal with this for the rest of our lives and, and the generations that are to come after us. Our family will never totally get away from this because you can never get all those photos offline. They will always, always be there. And there's the potential for somebody from our families that may be researching, being curious, the next generation or the next generation when they hear us talking about Libby, to decide they want to, to look for themselves, for those photos to come out that will never be taken away from our family. That potential will always be there.
- [41:53]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. How does it make you feel when you have people, either creators who are supportive of this, the defense team in this case, or defense attorneys, basically minimizing the leak and saying, well, it's not, it's not a huge deal.
- [42:09]
Rebecca Patty
They're not in our shoes, are they?
- [42:11]
Anya Cain
No.
- [42:12]
Rebecca Patty
All I say to people is put yourself in our shoes for just one minute. If that were your child, would you be okay with them being out there? If that were one of your loved ones laying there in the position that the girls were in, would you be okay for just anybody seeing them? Those girls were at their most vulnerable. Libby was a very modest person. And this leak has taken it away, totally away.
- [42:47]
Anya Cain
I think those two kids are owed their privacy in death. And it's. I don't understand why people continue sharing them. I don't know.
- [42:57]
Rebecca Patty
And you know, Baldwin may not have had anything to do with him, may not have, may have been a victim himself, but the fact remains he did not have them put up. He did not. Somebody had access to Them. That is a fact. So in one respect, he does have some culpability there. And all it would have taken would have been for them to say, yeah, I. You know what? We really messed up. I'm sorry. I understand what this means to you guys, but for them to just minimize it like it's not a big deal. It is a big deal. Maybe not to them. Granted, it may not mean a thing to them. So we live with it forever. And that's not a small thing. And they tried to make it a small thing. That's wrong. It. It would have made a huge difference had they just said, man, we. We rip. We did. We. We messed up. We're sorry. That would have gone a long ways. So. Okay. You know. Yep. But to do it now. Now she's saving face. Now you don't mean it. So that shit failed.
- [44:25]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that certainly seems fair. And I'm curious, you know, in terms of this case, we have the conviction of Richard Allen. He's been found guilty on four counts, sentenced. You know what? But, you know, there's still conspiracy theories. There's still kind of nonsense going around. Is. Is there. Is there something at this point that would help your family or. Or even Abby's family? If you don't want to speak for them, that's okay, but just would help the families in this case, kind of now that we're in this different phase of the case.
- [45:00]
Rebecca Patty
Well, I think everything has to run its course. There's nothing I. You. You can't stop what the defense is doing, so it has to run its course. But we understand that it has to run its course. So we've warned the patient to step back and let it run its course and let the truth come out and let it squash it and then go on. One day it will be over. One day it will.
- [45:35]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And going back a little bit, I did want to ask you, in terms of the trial, what did you think of the performance of the prosecution team? Nicholas McLelan, Stacey Deaner, James Luttrell.
- [45:49]
Rebecca Patty
I thought they were stellar. They complemented each other very well. Each one of them had their strength. Strength areas, and they each have been focused on that, on their strengths. And because of that, they melded together very well. And I feel that they put on a very good prosecution. A good. It was. It was a. It told a story. It told the story, and they did it well. I don't know that we could have had a better team than what we had.
- [46:31]
Kevin Greenlee
We've alluded to this a bit, but I'd Just like to ask you, what did you make of the performance of the defense team? Brad, Rosie, Andrew Baldwin and Jennifer O.J.
- [46:42]
Rebecca Patty
I guess they were doing their job. Right. There were things that happened that I felt like they crossed a line, but I understand they were doing their job. But I don't feel that lawyers should do their job at the expense of the victims. I think they made Richard Allen into a victim instead of the real victims. That. That wasn't. I just felt the girls got lost in all of that and they shouldn't have.
- [47:23]
Anya Cain
I was just wondering, you know, there's some wonderful opportunities for people to help keep Libby and Abby's memories alive. I'm thinking of things like the park, things like scholarship funds. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? About how sort of their memories kind of continue to give back to this community?
- [47:41]
Rebecca Patty
Both girls do have scholarship funds. They both give a scholarship to Adelphi student every year. That could always be grown if they want to. It's through the Carroll County Community Foundation. They're the ones that hold that for us, the park. We're always trying to grow that, make it a nicer place for the community, not just for the entire community. Not in. In remembrance of the girls, but we also have made that park to be a memorial park for other families. We. We do have the pavers down there that people can purchase a paver in. In memorial of one of their loved ones in memory of them. So we've tried to make this to include the entire community. And we can always. You know, we're always. Like I said, we still have part of a parking lot that needs to be paid. There's always maintenance. There's always things for the park. And so if anybody ever wanted to contribute or buy a paver for a loved one or something, they can go to the Addie and Liddy memorial site. All that information is there. Or if. If you really want to just do something, do an act of kindness like the girls would have done. Because, you know, kindness. Kindness can be contagious. So one good deed, maybe they'll pass it on to the next person. Sort of like that. Pay it forward, do that and honor the girl. They would be happy.
- [49:29]
Anya Cain
If you could say something to Libby, what would you. What would you say to her?
- [49:39]
Rebecca Patty
I miss you. It's hard because we truly do miss her.
- [49:48]
Anya Cain
I know.
- [49:49]
Rebecca Patty
You know, she should be here and when we are doing things, that's what you think. She should be here with us. She should be doing this. You know, she should be getting ready to graduate college. It's not she the one sitting here waiting for the phone call.
- [50:11]
Anya Cain
She'd be a great aunt, you know, and a great mom, I'm sure, too.
- [50:15]
Rebecca Patty
Oh, she'd be a wonderful mom. She would be.
- [50:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks very much, Rebecca Patty, for taking the time to speak to us. We so appreciate it. The strength that she and the other loved ones of both Abby and Libby have displayed throughout this entire ordeal is an inspiration. And again, we'd like to congratulate her and her family on the birth of their grandchild. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [50:59]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so@buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [51:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [51:34]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [51:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.
- [52:04]
Anya Cain
Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.
- [52:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?
- [52:54]
Anya Cain
Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I A Hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet, because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.
- [53:23]
Kevin Greenlee
So, Anya, before we let people go, I wanted to talk again about the Silver Linings Handbook, and more specifically, I want to talk about Jason Blair, because certainly there have been times when something happens, we don't know what to do. We're just out here rubbing two sticks together, and we need to turn to somebody for advice. I'm sure everybody's had that experience. We need to turn to somebody for advice. And one of the people we turn to most often is Jason Blair. And he's always been there for us. He's always willing to give you time. He's always willing to give you great advice. And so now what's wonderful is that everybody within the sound of my voice has access to his insights and his compassion and his advice, because you can find all of that on his podcast.
- [54:13]
Anya Cain
Yeah, he's. This podcast is a bit like being able to sort of sit down and sort of hear some interesting insights. I always feel inspired by it. He's had on some really incredible guests recently, and they've had just such, like, heartbreaking, real conversations with people like Jim Schmidt, who his daughter, Gabby Petito, was murdered. Jim just came across just as such a real and empathetic and wonderful human being. He was even given one of Jason's friends kind of told him recently about some abuse she had suffered. Jim was giving advice. I mean, it was really incredible. I'm thinking of Kimberly Loring. Her sister went missing in Montana. It's another case involving a native woman. So raising awareness about that, talking to the woman who lost her father, who was a Los Angeles Police Department detective. He was murdered so he couldn't testify at a robbery trial. Just like, awful stuff. But ultimately, really focusing on the compassion and allowing people the space to tell their stories. I think Jason shines as an interviewer because he has that natural empathy and curiosity, too. Whenever I'm thinking of a question like, oh, I hope they get into this, like, he's asking it two seconds later. So it's a really enjoyable listening experience. And I feel like whenever we listen to it, you and I end up, like, discussing some deep stuff like religion or, you know, what we what kind of, like, positivity we want to share with the world. So I think if you're, if you're looking for that, and you're looking to have those kind of thought provoking conversations in your life, this is the show for you, 100%. So I would just say that if you're interested, subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook. Wherever you listen to podcasts.