The Delphi Murders: First Person: Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – The Delphi Murders: First Person: Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby

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Introduction

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the harrowing Delphi murders through an exclusive first-person interview with Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby. Released on February 12, 2025, the episode offers an in-depth exploration of the investigation, the challenges faced by law enforcement, and the personal reflections of a seasoned sheriff’s deputy who was at the forefront of one of Indiana’s most notorious cases.

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Background of Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby

Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby brings a wealth of experience from his 38-year tenure with Carroll County’s sheriff’s office. Starting as a part-time jail officer in 1986, Leazenby ascended through the ranks, serving eight years as sheriff before returning to his role as Chief Deputy under his successor, Sheriff Tony Burns. His dedication to the community and law enforcement is evident throughout his career.

Notable Quote:

"I started here in 1986 and fast forward to today, I moved up the ranks. I kind of pride myself on starting my 38th year with the sheriff's office August 1st of last year." (06:31)

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The Onset of the Delphi Murders Investigation

On the evening of February 12, 2017, Carroll County was thrust into a dire situation with the disappearance of two young girls, Liberty German (14) and Abigail Williams (13). Chief Deputy Leazenby recounts the initial moments upon learning of the missing girls during a county council meeting.

Notable Quote:

"I was in a county council meeting, and one of our deputies came in and said, 'Hey, he’s got two girls that are missing.'" (20:21)

Community Response: The tight-knit community of Delphi, characterized by its “small town USA” feel, responded with overwhelming support. Volunteers from various backgrounds swiftly joined the search efforts, showcasing the town’s solidarity.

Notable Quote:

"The amount of community help that came on board quickly and said, 'Hey, what can we do to help out?'" (23:32)

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Investigation Challenges and Strategies

As the search intensifies, Leazenby highlights the complexities of the case, particularly the transition from searching for missing persons to uncovering a potential double homicide. The involvement of multiple agencies, including the Indiana State Police and the FBI, underscores the magnitude of the investigation.

Collaboration with Agencies: Leazenby emphasizes the importance of collaboration, noting prior relationships with personnel from District 14 of the Indiana State Police, which facilitated seamless cooperation during the investigation.

Notable Quote:

"The communication, just the open communication that happened on a regular basis... it was about respect for one another." (57:55)

Management Role: While Detectives Kevin Hammond and Tony Liggett spearheaded the ground investigations, Leazenby’s role was primarily managerial, ensuring coordination and strategic oversight.

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Critical Moments and Turning Points

A significant breakthrough in the case came through the efforts of volunteer Kathy Schenck, whose relentless pursuit of leads provided crucial information that propelled the investigation forward.

Notable Quote:

"The first word that comes to mind is driven. She’s like an animal that pursues something and once she gets a hold of it, she just won’t let go." (45:54)

Technological Evidence: Leazenby underscores the importance of technological evidence, such as the video footage from the girls’ phones, which became pivotal in piecing together the events leading to their disappearance.

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Trial and Conviction

The legal proceedings culminated in the trial of the defendant, whose meticulous preparation and presentation by Prosecutor Nick McLean were instrumental in securing a conviction. Leazenby reflects on the intense emotional toll the trial had on the community and himself.

Notable Quote:

"It was somewhat surreal, like we had been living a bad dream for a number of years now." (53:57)

Faith and Resilience: Throughout the ordeal, Leazenby’s faith provided solace. He credits his belief in justice and righteousness as key factors in navigating the challenging times.

Notable Quote:

"I believe in a God of justice and righteousness, and I boast for God when I come back around and say, God came through with that justice and righteousness." (55:46)

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Reflections and Lessons Learned

Reflecting on the Delphi case, Leazenby emphasizes the importance of objectivity, open-mindedness, and community support in solving such profound crimes. He also addresses the impact of social media speculation, advocating for responsible information sharing to preserve the integrity of ongoing investigations.

Notable Quote:

"Encourage people to be objective, be open-minded, don’t immediately dismiss, don’t believe everything that you may hear." (61:06)

Future Outlook: As he contemplates retirement, Leazenby expresses confidence in the next generation of law enforcement professionals, believing they are well-equipped to handle future challenges.

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Conclusion

Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby’s firsthand account provides a profound understanding of the Delphi murders, highlighting the dedication and resilience required in law enforcement. His narrative not only sheds light on the intricacies of the investigation but also underscores the enduring impact such cases have on communities and individuals alike. This episode serves as a testament to the relentless pursuit of justice and the unwavering spirit of those committed to protecting their communities.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Career Beginnings and Dedication:

  "I started here in 1986 and fast forward to today, I moved up the ranks. I kind of pride myself on starting my 38th year with the sheriff's office August 1st of last year." (06:31)

• Initial Response to Missing Girls:

  "I was in a county council meeting, and one of our deputies came in and said, 'Hey, he’s got two girls that are missing.'" (20:21)

• Community Involvement:

  "The amount of community help that came on board quickly and said, 'Hey, what can we do to help out?'" (23:32)

• Trial Reflections:

  "It was somewhat surreal, like we had been living a bad dream for a number of years now." (53:57)

• Faith and Justice:

  "I believe in a God of justice and righteousness, and I boast for God when I come back around and say, God came through with that justice and righteousness." (55:46)

• Final Reflections:

  "Encourage people to be objective, be open-minded, don’t immediately dismiss, don’t believe everything that you may hear." (61:06)

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Key Takeaways

• Community Solidarity: The swift and overwhelming community response played a crucial role in the initial search efforts.

• Interagency Collaboration: Effective communication and prior relationships with other law enforcement agencies were vital in managing the case’s complexity.

• Technological Advancements: Modern technology, particularly video evidence, proved instrumental in advancing the investigation.

• Emotional Resilience: The prolonged nature of the case tested the emotional strength and faith of those involved, particularly Chief Deputy Leazenby.

• Importance of Objectivity: Maintaining objectivity and caution against unchecked speculation are essential in high-profile investigations to preserve case integrity.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Chief Deputy Tobe Leazenby’s experiences and insights into the Delphi murders case, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the investigation and its broader implications within the community.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

As sheriff, he became one of the public facing figures in the case. Behind the scenes, he supported his detectives as they worked to solve the murders.

[Anya Cain]

Now that his term is over, he's gone back to being the Chief Deputy of Carroll county, continuing to serve the community there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Today he will speak with us about his law enforcement career before becoming sheriff, his role in the case and what the families of the girls mean to him.

[Anya Cain]

Now that the gag order is lifted, Chief Deputy Lesnby and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. Well, a quick disclaimer here. Law enforcement in this case, including the Sheriff's Office, stopped doing new interviews a few weeks ago. We were fortunate enough to have done our interview with Chief Deputy Lezenby earlier in January before that cutoff. So we did not do this recently, but the information within is still highly relevant.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This episode will feature our interview with Chief Deputy Lezenby. This episode is part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, please email [e-mail]. this is part of our ongoing effort to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Delphi Murders. First person, Chief Deputy Tobe Lesenby.

[Tobe Lesenby]

It.

[Anya Cain]

To start off with, could you please tell us a bit about your background?

[Tobe Lesenby]

My name is Tobe Lezomby and I grew up actually in, in Clinton county, the next county south of us. But once I graduated from College in the 80s, I began contacting agencies surrounding Clinton county. And I consider it fate or God leading me. Carroll county was the last agency on my list to call to check for job openings. And so I applied for actually a part time jail officer's position in 1986 here was hired and fast forward to today. I moved up the ranks, if you will. Started here in 1986. I kind of pride myself on. Started my 38th year with the sheriff's office August 1st of last year. And I've continuously served Carroll county since then in some kind of capacity. Obviously eight years as sheriff and back to chief deputy's position, which I served eight years of that under my predecessor, Sheriff Tony Burns. So and then of course I ran for sheriff and was elected and for two terms and yeah, so I came on board, supported Tony during his campaign and he decided to keep me on board. So here we are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It sounds like right out of the gate you knew you wanted a career in law enforcement. What was, what was the motivation for that?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Actually way back when I had a friend of mine that was a. Or actually going through training to become an Indiana conservation officer and I actually went to college at Vincennes University to get involved with conservation. I actually tested for it and didn't make that process in 1988 when I became a sheriff's deputy is that's again, I considered it fate and you know, got on, got on board as a Sheriff's deputy in 1988 and so but it started out with a friend of mine that was an Indiana conservation officer. As far as law enforcement then obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You'Ve served the people of Carroll county, as you say, for 38 years. You're very focused on that now. There's people who follow this case obviously all over the world. They probably have very little understanding of what Delphi or Carroll county is like. How would you describe this part of the world to people who have never been here?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I used it a number of times during the investigation and that is, I know it sounds somewhat cliche, but small town usa, city of Delphi is, it's a mix very diverse in my opinion, has become diverse particularly with local employer Indiana Packers Corporation and so mix of all kinds of backgrounds. You know, families. There's, there's family history here, a lot of family history. You know, unfortunately in, in our business I've dealt with, this is where I really start to feel old. I've dealt with, I think last count I had maybe the fourth or fifth generation of certain families that have been clients, if you will, in our business. So there's, there's a lot of family history involved in the Delphi area.

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[Tobe Lesenby]

I guess if you go back and look at sheriff's office history, there's a progression, if you will. Obviously our agency is small enough that we don't have a lot of upward mobility as far as you know, we have my position as major current position and then we have one night sergeant and that's about it as far as rank goes. So it was a progression. I know before Sheriff Burns, the sheriff, Dennis Randall was a part of the agency since the early 80s and so he ran for sheriff. Before him was Lee Horde and he was Sheriff in the 90s. It was kind of like, I can't think of the exact right word to use here, but just a progression as, as you go along with a small county agency, the next senior guy, if you will, usually runs for sheriff. Now granted we've had outside individuals come on board, but for the most part, if you've been with an agency long enough, most people in the county and the community get to know you and know what you're all about. And so they come on, come alongside of you.

[Anya Cain]

You've been with the sheriff's office for so long, I guess, you know, before we start talking about the Delphi murders case, I was just curious, are there any other memorable cases you've worked on in some Capacity that sort of come to mind for you?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Actually I did an interview here while back and the two that do come to mind and these were family related type cases in in the home scenarios. Crime scenes were in the home and these were in to see one was late 80s, early 90s. And again I was just basically a road deputy during both of these cases. I didn't play a huge role but assisted like Indiana State Police and detectives and stuff like that. But and that is the Buchanan case in Pittsburgh where young man killed his grandparents. Then Richard Temple in Lockport, northeastern part of the county killed his grandparents in the 90s back then. And so those, those two cases come to mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Actually, actually before we get to Delphi, I think I'd like to ask a pretty basic, maybe even naive question. Just what is like a typical day life for a person working this job?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Basically it's you know as, as I've, I've described through the years going back to the small town USA comment. We, but we also, we're in the capacity where we handle something as graphic as a homicide in our county all the way down to complaints of dog string off of a neighbor's property. So that spectrum if you will. So a basic day again that's the thing I've always enjoyed about particularly being involved with a county agency is in essence you don't know exactly what your day is going to be like. You never know what's going to roll into you. So obviously we investigate accidents, car accidents, we have calls for civil issues, you know, maybe neighbor disputes, things like that or even people going through a divorce. And you know, there's issues there, you know, all the way up to. Well, as an example, yesterday one of our deputies responded to a call of burglary to a church in the rural portion of our county up office 00:29. So anything anyone may think of, it's not, it's not Hollywood, you know, it's not, it's not always exciting around here. And not that we're always looking for that excitement, but there's again a broad huge spectrum there as far as what we attend to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And another thing that occurs to me is sheriffs are obviously elected, right. As opposed to like police officers or even the Indiana State Police.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Does that mean you have like a closer or a different relationship to the public those other agencies might have?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I think so. There seems to be that personal connection, you know, with, with a lot of people that I know in the county being able to have that, that one on one opportunity with families, you know, even Even the families that I mentioned earlier that we've had run ins with, you know, I've, I've always felt like. And I've had people approach me and say, you know, you're, you know, they have a lot of respect for what I do. And so, yes, I think there's a closer connect. The other thing is too, particularly in an elected position as sheriff, people have that voice, that opportunity to vote, you know, hey, I want John Smith in here. I want, you know, Bill Jones.

[Anya Cain]

Going back to February 13, 2017, how did you first hear about. Do you remember where you were when you first heard that two girls were missing at the trails?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Very good question. And I've been asked that a number of times. And yes, to answer your question, one of few times they have done done it in this county. But our county council was meeting that afternoon or it was a late afternoon, early evening type meeting courthouse. And so I was at a county council meeting and I can't remember which one of our deputies it was, but he came into the meeting and said, hey, he's got two girls that are missing and we're, you know, in the early stages of a search and trying to locate them. So I was, yeah, I was in a county council meeting and one thing.

[Anya Cain]

That was really a theme that came out of the trial was, you know, people in Carroll county did not think anything nefarious had happened at first. Did you share that sort of initial view just based on, you know, knowing this place and, and sort of knowing what kind of crimes happen here?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Most definitely. As I've again stated before, I kind of prided our agency in being able to successfully locate whether it was missing seniors or elders or missing children. And so our track record, if you will, at that time was, you know, just fantastic. I mean we, we were able to successfully locate with happy endings, if you will. Most, most individuals that came in as.

[Anya Cain]

Missing and, and stranger type murder abduction crimes were, would be considered a rarity not only in Carroll county, but just in this part of Indiana. Is that fair to say?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yes, I would agree.

[Anya Cain]

Can you tell me about the initial night, the initial response to sort of, you know, what, what you were doing and sort of what the, the office was, was doing in terms of just the initial search.

[Tobe Lesenby]

I remember as things became ramped up, if you will, involving the search, my position and I held this position throughout being the sheriff and, and that was more focused on the administrative aspect versus boots on the ground, if you will. And so a lot of my initial time was spent at the Delphi City building slash at that time, fire department, where efforts were being coordinated for search groups and teams. And so obviously Steve Mullen was chief of police at that time. So Steve and I communicated, as I recall, often Indiana State Police representatives came on fairly early, obviously, and assisting with the search and in the bigger sense, community. I mean, and this is the thing that just astounds me to this day is the amount of community help that came on board quickly and said, hey, what can we do to help out? And you know, so they were assigned a team or whatever and you go this way, you go this way and check.

[Anya Cain]

Did that surprise you or did that kind of coincide with what you knew about Carroll county and its people?

[Tobe Lesenby]

It did not surprise me, really. It's amazing, you know, being, and I guess more so I've seen it particularly being a farming community, we've had farmers injured or even passed, pass away in the past. And so other farmers have come in to help like during the harvest or springtime. So overall, in the bigger picture, it didn't surprise me when people came on board.

[Anya Cain]

Can you talk us through your experience as the night got later and we get into early morning and things are kind of official, search is called off around 2am and just like what that was like to experience that, I imagine, you know, you're expecting to find two injured girls.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yes, I think the word frustration comes to mind. You know, and just trying to grasp what, what was going on here. You know, we've again, I kind of, I kept going back to, you know, again, that, that issue of. Or the factor that we had been able to locate, you know, again, missing children or seniors fairly quick, actually, in most cases. And so is as time went along, you know, I just, I started, I'm generally, I always tried to be optimistic and positive most days. And so as, as time went along, that optimism and positive attitude kind of started to waver a little bit.

[Anya Cain]

It's obviously very easy for people to sort of Monday morning quarterback something like this where it's an ongoing situation. No. One thing that has attracted criticism is the decision to call off dogs, so to speak. Can you tell us just more about that and sort of just, you know, I don't know, I guess maybe contextualize.

[Tobe Lesenby]

It as I recall. And I, I may have my timing off on this, but we did have what was a highly recommended group of canine search dogs on their way from, I want to say Missouri, but I could be wrong on that state. As I recall, once the girls were located, that is just maybe shortly before that is when we called them off because obviously we had found them. I don't recall us actually stopping that process prior to that. Now, again, I, you know, it's been some time ago, so it's hard to remember exactly the timing on that. So. And the. And the search itself. And I. I know I. I was criticized then, and certain people still criticize me to this day as. As far as the search stopping. But the one thing I want to point out is even though, as you referred to earlier, the official search was temporarily stop, there were still members of the community out there. Even though we had said, okay, we're, you know, from a law enforcement, from a first responder standpoint, we're. We're stopping for the night. But that didn't stop others from continuing their efforts.

[Anya Cain]

Right. So would it be fair to say that in a way the search never really stopped, even though technically, from a liability perspective, it had to officially end at 2:00am yes.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

I want to talk about February 14th. I guess, you know, at that point, it's our understanding that state police more starts coming in to assist prior to the discovery of the bodies. Can you tell us about that?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Again, as is the clock continued to tick then there was a sense of this being more grave, if you will, than what was initially thought. You know, like any situation, you know, as best you can, you want to try to bring in the best resources, you know, at that point and. And have them come alongside you and help you out, you know, can you.

[Anya Cain]

Tell us about hearing that not only have two bodies been found, but then pretty quickly it's coming out that it. This is likely not some sort of tragic accident. This is actually a double homicide.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yeah, I've described it before, and I guess the. I consider myself to have a simple mind some days until. The simple feeling that I had then was like, is it was as if somebody just come up and kick me in the stomach, kick me in the gut, you know. And a flurry of questions, like many. For many others, I should say came to mind is how, why, you know, this can't be, you know, that kind of thing.

[Anya Cain]

And can you tell me of how you all hit the ground running? And my. My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that it was detectives Kevin Hammond and Tony Liggett on this initially and sort of talk me through the decision to keep it as a Carroll county case. And the decision, you know, I guess like those kind of those early days, I.

[Tobe Lesenby]

And to this day, I still feel the same way. No disrespect to any of the outside agencies that came alongside of us and helped us. I have pride from the aspect that as particularly at that time being sheriff, this was on our soil, if you will, this blood had been spilled on our soil. And so I want to felt like this is a quote unquote county case. This was in the county. And so therefore, yeah, maybe, maybe there was some pride involved, but I wanted to make sure that we not necessarily were considered the lead agency, but we were, we were in charge, if you will. And so, and I remember having conversation and I saw where he had done an interview here a while back and brought this up, but had conversation with Jerry Holman and Jerry kind of jogged my memory and said, you know, that Toby and I had this conversation that ISP doesn't want to come over, come in and take over, but we're here alongside to help you out with the case. And so, and I, I remember, I guess somewhat of a humorous moment, Doug Carter and I even having conversation about, well, we're going to do this, this. And I'm like, time out, Doug. You know, time out. We're, you know, that's. And, and the thing I always, somewhat jokingly, I'll put it that way, Doug Carter and I always, at least what I always reminded him was, Doug, you were a sheriff at one time of Hamilton County. He acknowledged that. So anyway, you know, whether it be pride or anything else, I guess I'll say I, I felt you know, the pride of, the pride aspect of it and keeping it in Carroll County.

[Anya Cain]

The other agency that's kind of associated with Deli is of course Indiana State Police, as you mentioned. Can you tell us a bit like what it was like working with them?

[Tobe Lesenby]

The, the plus was particularly for District 14, which is a Lafayette district, particularly with my years of service, I knew and still to this day know a lot of personnel at that district. And so, you know, faces were very familiar. And so, you know, when they initially came on board from the, the Lafayette District area, you know, we, we were, we had worked together before and so we were very comfortable with each other, you know, as far as being able to work together. And so, so yeah, it was, I guess to, again, not sound cliche, but it was kind of a no brainer, you know, and having that partnership so.

[Anya Cain]

You could trust them. They weren't going to come in and bulldoze.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

If you don't want to answer this, I understand Doug Carter alluded to getting into a fight with you in, in the community building at the Prescott Canal Center. Canal center, yeah. What were you fighting about.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Please tell us.

[Anya Cain]

We are so nosy.

[Tobe Lesenby]

No, very, very good question. And I, you know, again, Doug and I look back on it and, and laugh today. But as I recall it, and maybe Doug's got a different version, but we. Prior to that news conference, we were in the kitchen and I had gotten word. I don't care, remember who tell told me. But I'd gotten word before the news conference that Doug was going to go out there by himself and for my language. But I, in my mind, I thought, bullshit. I'm the sheriff of this county. I'm going to be out. I'm not going to say anything. But again, kind of going back to that pride thing, most sheriffs will tell you, people want to see their sheriff, you know, whether it's on TV and newspaper, you know, they. They put that individual in office, so they want to see their sheriff. Call political, call it what you may. But so anyway, as I remember, Doug initially said, hey, I'm going to handle this on my own. I said, no, you're not. And. And, and he. Yeah, he kind of got red in the face. And I'm. I'm sure I did, too. And, and that was as I recall. And again, Doug may have a different story that he remembers, but I want people to know that we are still heavily involved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, that kind of story kind of brings up something. You said people want to see their sheriff. People also wanted information about the case, but at the same time, you were fully aware that if you gave out too much information, it would damage the integrity of the case. So how did you navigate that and walk that line between giving the people the information they had a right to without damaging the case?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Very good question, Kevin. And obviously there was a very fine line, if you will, there, you know, and I remember saying during subsequent interviews in the past that I kept saying, you know, whenever a question that I didn't feel comfortable in answering came up, I would say, I'm sorry, but we are preserving that for the courtroom. I kept saying, the courtroom is what's important, you know, for this case. And so there were times that, and I remember, you know, early on, Rob Ives was county prosecutor, and, and Rob, you know, bless his heart, he's always been a stickler about don't say too much, don't say too much, don't say too much. And, and those words were kind of circling or have always circled in my mind about, again, preserve what's important for the courtroom. And so I, you know, I may have. Sound like a broken record, but I kept. Kept bringing that up all the time. I can't talk about this because that's what we want to present in the courthouse. I don't know if that answers your question, but I appreciate it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When you would give answers during that time, people would always try to parse them and try to figure out what you were hinting at. I'm curious, during that time, did you have some educated guesses as to what you thought the killer was like or who he might have been?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I guess somewhat related, in my opinion. I kept saying. I always felt like practically since day one, particularly knowing the topography of that area out there, that it either had to be someone that knew that area of the county, was familiar with it, and. And then either had grown up in the area and knew that area and had come back, or they still lived in the area and had been out there previously and again, knew the layout of the land, if you will. And so I had always felt it was local. As far as educated guesses, I. I just had that hunch, that gut feeling in my mind that it was again, a local person involved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm curious. Obviously, this case attracted a lot of attention from outside Delphi, outside Indiana, even outside the United States. Do you have any thoughts or as to why so many people got so interested and so involved in this?

[Tobe Lesenby]

A lot of it, I think, again, was, and this is not a critical statement, but social media driven a lot of aspects, I think, to the credit, particularly family and. And Mike, Patty in general, because I remember Mike doing an interview, I think the first night out here in front of our office outside. And so the. The family coming out early on and saying, hey, you know, initially, obviously we're missing two young girls that are, you know, their family. And then, you know, February 14th, rolling around. So the. The dedication, love drive by the family to continually get this out of her. And I know because I remember talking to Mike about it somewhere during the investigation. They went to what's the not. Not Comic Con, but Crime Con. Yeah. Going to those events. So I credit family members and keeping this in the forefront.

[Anya Cain]

How did it feel being sheriff of a community where there was like the possibility that someone in the midst was. Had done this and just sort of went back into their lives.

[Tobe Lesenby]

If I had the opportunity early on to talk to whomever was involved, a lot of the simple questions from early on was, would have been how or why, you know, what was the purpose behind this? And again, kind of going back to what I described early here this morning as, you know, we. We have that Huge spectrum of what we investigate in this county and have investigated in this county. And I described earlier as this being small town, usa. But to add to that, what I've said before is that we also have our share of quote, unquote, big city issues, too. As time has went along, obviously, we've seen an influx of bad actors, if you will, coming from Lafayette, Kokomo to the east, Logan, Sport to the northeast, you know, even Indianapolis, come up here and commit various things, crimes. And so I was hoping as time went along, this wasn't going to send a message of, you know, hey, if you want to commit whatever crime you're thinking of, come to Carroll County. Didn't want that.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And then one thing that kind of came out of trial, and I was wondering if you could sort of speak to this more is that with this investigation, you know, your sheriff, you're running a whole sheriff's office in a whole county, your role within the investigation was more on the managerial side. Is that fair to say?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

With Detectives Liggett and Hammond.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Taking on more of the role. So can you talk us just through what that was like and sort of like, kind of where you were, like, are they keeping you updated? Or like, how does, how does that work as far as your role within that?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Sure, yeah. As best we could, depending on what the guys may have been working on during a certain time period, we would at the very least try to have a weekly meeting. Generally, they were here in this office and they would both sit down and say, okay, you know, at that time period, we're, you know, we're looking at this and we're looking at this. And of course, the, you know, we, we started up, if you will, the investigation center in West Delphi. You know, I would, as best I could, make efforts to go to that, that building and meet with not only Kevin and Tony, but with any of the other investigators involved at that time and have conversation. I know that we would also have randomly, I can't remember how often, but we would have meetings that would bring the core investigators, which obviously was at that time, Indiana State Police, FBI, our agency, that kind of thing. We would have meetings then as far as bringing things up to date.

[Anya Cain]

So you're not really doing as much of the day to day investigating.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Just kind of like, what's going on with this.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

How would, how would you, how would you characterize Detectives Liggett and Hammond, like, in terms of their work and what it was like working with them on this?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I guess the one thing Particularly for Tony and, and he's, you know, I have that most respect for him from the aspect of he. He was doing a lot of reading of the ongoing tips that were coming in and obviously some were good, some were not so good. And so he was. And. And not taking away from Detective Hammond. But Tony was, was very in depth, very much immersed in this. And I think that's again, not sound political, but I think that's what's helped him to become or be a good sheriff. And so he's, he's into the being an investigator, he's into the detail. And so both of them, you know, would. Whatever certain what they felt were important pieces of information would come in, they would go out into the field and do their follow up and, and then, you know, document that. So, but I, particularly for Tony, I think he was very, very involved, very immersed with, with the whole case from.

[Anya Cain]

The get go in terms of, you know, the, this case. Kevin alluded to this, but it's attracted such interest from around the world and unfortunately, one side effect of that has just been a lot of rampant and sometimes cruel, frankly, speculation and sort of misbehavior online. I guess I would characterize it as. And what has it been like to deal with that from your perspective?

[Tobe Lesenby]

And I was going to include the word speculation and assumptions that took place and honestly, as the saying goes in one ear and out the other scenario, and I respect free speech and people having that opportunity to say what's on their minds. But I've always been about, particularly in our business, two sides to every story and more. So this is where I get frustrated with media nowadays because they don't always seem to get that second side, you know. And so, you know, it's. It's like the old saying, engage more of your listening and less of your mouth.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So some of this online speculation actually led into the Carroll County Sheriff's campaign. There were some out of state people who made off the wall, frankly, allegations, filed a lawsuit alleging all sorts of stuff that was pretty swiftly dismissed. Do you want to address any of that and educate people as to the facts?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I'll circle back around to what I just said. I mean the, the whole story, both sides of whatever the situation was. And again, that's. That's something that. Yeah, I remember that, but I, I don't think about it daily and. Because that's, as the saying goes, water under the bridge, you know, and so. But it was, it was frustrating to, you know, say, you know, and there were Some personal attacks against me, I know at the. At the time. And fortunately, or depending on how you look at, I've become hardened, if you will, or calloused through the years. And so certain things bounce right off of me. But I'm also human, too. And it was unfortunate that particularly there were players that I thought were friends at the time, had been friends for a number of years. I'm not going to name names, but I found out they weren't actually true friends. So, you know, it was. Again, alluding to what I said earlier, I've always tried to keep that positive thought, rise to the next level, because the minute you stoop to whatever level that is, you're. You're going to lose out.

[Anya Cain]

I want to go to the big break in this case, which of course came about through volunteer Kathy Schenck, I guess, to start off with. Did you know Kathy Schenk from her work at CPS prior?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Did I did, yeah. Known Kathy for a number of years.

[Anya Cain]

What is she like?

[Tobe Lesenby]

The first word that comes to mind is driven. You know, she's like an animal that pursues something and. And once she gets a hold of it, she just won't let go.

[Anya Cain]

She's like a huntress. That's cool.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of like the female lion, if you will.

[Anya Cain]

Oh. And she's like, you know, I. I was really struck by her dedicating her career to protecting children in the county and then volunteering with this case.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yeah. Because I. I remember back in the day when she was still with cbs that. And it was kind of a, I guess, an internal joke that, you know, whenever the guys would get a call to go. Go with Kathy on particular case, and she would get a hold of something. There were a few cases that admittedly. So we would roll our eyes, like, where is she going with this? And at the end of the investigation, we're like, oh, you know, the light bulb came on and we're like, she was on it. So. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Where were you when you heard that something was kind of breaking open?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I can't remember specifically. And again, I think, as I roughly recall, I think Tony actually called me, said. And I. And again, I think at that time then we had one of our bigger meetings, you know, so that with, you know, the. The ones presenting it wouldn't have to repeat themselves a number of times. So we want to make sure that the. The core group of the investigators were listening and hearing what was being presented.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned Prosecutor Ives a moment ago. I'm curious, what's your impression of Nick McLean.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Very, very impressed. You know, you know, Nick, I think he alluded to this at the, the news conference and has before. You know, he came from the world of, of being a defense attorney when he first started his career. And so, you know, there's that love, hate relationship between defense attorneys and law enforcement. And so when he became prosecutor, you know, ironically, you know, Nick's local, his family's local, he's well known. And you know, in fact, he, he went to high school with some of my family, family members here at Delphi. So known him a number of years. And so as time, I guess to sum it up, as time has went along, I've been very impressed, particularly with the trial and the way he presented the facts of the case. And so I've been just outwardly impressed. I've seen him come along in his career and, and learn quite a bit to the point that he's become an outstanding prosecutor.

[Anya Cain]

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[Tobe Lesenby]

Repeat after me.

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

Audio what did you make of this defense team?

[Tobe Lesenby]

We understand defense attorneys have A job to do. And those gentlemen and that lady had a job to do, and that was to present for their client the best case they knew. And so do I respect everything that happened? Absolutely not. I'll say it's much like the office of sheriff. Throughout the years, I've respected practically most individuals that have been sheriff, whether it be in Carroll county or any other county. But more so, I respect the office that they retain, if you follow what I'm saying. So I respect from the defense aspect, their positions. It's not really an office, but their positions as defense attorneys. So I respect that, again, they. They had a task set before them.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm also just curious, in this case, had you been. Had any awareness of this defendant prior to any of this happening? Like going to. Just going to cvs?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yes. You know, the only CVS in the county. So you don't have very many options. And so, yeah, I. I recall rarely did we speak, but whenever I was looking for something in the store, he happened to be nearby. And. And I think, of course, I, you know, normally I'm uniformed and I even a sheriff, I wore a uniform. And so I remember maybe once or twice going into the store and looking around, and he came up to me and said, can I help you find something? Sure. You know, and he was very professional and was doing his job. And I honestly, I had no clue at that moment, at that time period.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. I want to ask about the trial and just what was your experience at trial?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Since I was listed as a defense witness and that separation of witnesses, my time within the courtroom was obviously limited until I was released from that subpoena. And so if there's anything positive from the whole trial aspect, the thing I thoroughly. Because I, for the most part, I consider myself a people person. And so it was fantastic to interact with not only outside law enforcement agencies came on board, but community people that came to the courthouse, just whether it be nosy or whatever you want to call it, came in just to find out, you know, they knew they couldn't get in the courtroom, but they just kind of wanted to linger a little bit to find out what was going on with the trial on whatever particular day it was. So the, the. Just the overall interaction outside personnel and in our own personnel, and again, saw some. Some people I haven't seen in years. And so it was, you know, the interaction just, you know, being able to, if you will, break bread with other law enforcement and. And just have that interaction throughout the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Trial case has occupied a big part of your life. And of your heart and of your mind for close to eight years now. How did it feel when Alberta came in?

[Tobe Lesenby]

And huge relief, you know, because throughout, even though I was not frequently in the courtroom, I was still, you know, hearing information outside of the courtroom, you know. And so, you know, there were times, you know, particularly when the defense maybe brought something up that we thought, or I thought, boy, I don't know if we're going to, you know, how this verdict's going to turn out. And so just. Just a huge, huge relief factor in hearing that verdict. And I was actually in the courtroom the day was because I'd been released from the subpoena at that time, and I was obviously in the courtroom when that verdict was ready. And I also described in the past as shortly after the trial and the verdict was read, that it was in my own mind. It was somewhat surreal, so to say it was like we had been living a bad dream for a number of years now. So to see the system come to fruition the way it did and to see justice. I consider myself a huge man of faith, and I believe in God. And I know during the day when we had the news conference at the Methodist church and it was short, I remember it, but I remember standing up and saying, I believe in a God of justice and righteousness, and I boast for God when I come back around and say, God came through with that justice and righteousness in. In my humble opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So has your faith been tested by some of the things.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'm human, you know, and so. Yes, and. But, you know, I frequently think back to scripture where Jesus said, he that is, without sin, throw the first stone. And so as best I can, particularly in the business we're in, you know, I try to not throw those stones. And probably part of the reason why I don't participate in social media.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious. You know, this obviously became like, a pretty, like, group of investigators who are working together closely to solve this, you know, unified command, I'm thinking of. And then folks like yourself who are also kind of in those managerial roles who are part of the process now that you've been through this. What do these different investigators and prosecutors, you know, mean to you that you've all gone through this together?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I guess it gives me faith and hope since I'm, you know, in the next couple of years, I'm probably going to be retiring from this business. And so, you know, there's. There's always the talk of concerns of the younger generation. And so it gives me Faith and hope and knowing, particularly for Carroll county, the people filling or in these positions, and knowing that moving forward, everything's going to be fine. We're going to be okay because we have strong individuals filling or involved with these positions. And so they're going to be able to handle whatever. Whatever comes at them.

[Anya Cain]

To circle back to something we talked about earlier, you know, this was a Carroll county case, but there was a lot of work with ISP and with even other agencies that would come in and help. And now that it's over, looking back, what is. What does that mean to you? How do you reflect on that?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I think, again, it was, you know, it wasn't perfect, but, you know, again, the communication, just the open communication that happened on a regular basis, and whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, on that particular day, at least it was talked about and brought out into the open. And so I think the word respect for one another comes to mind, you know, and knowing that what, you know, a particular detective or sheriff's deputy or even a police officer was looking at, there was still the opportunity to sit down and have that conversation. And then at the end of the day, even though you didn't agree with it, you still respected whomever was providing that information with. With courtesy and professionalism.

[Anya Cain]

Mentioned Mike, Patty, earlier in some of the advocacy done by Libby's family. But what do the families of Libby and Abby mean to you now?

[Tobe Lesenby]

I guess what comes to mind. And again, not sound cliche, but they're rock stars. You know, for them to. They. They could have easily, And I think we've all seen it with other families in similar situations. They could have easily just gone into the background, say, you know, it's a police matter, we'll let them handle it. But they didn't, you know, and I'm glad. I'm glad because they, you know, they kept. And I'm hoping, and I don't know why this still comes to mind to this day, but I remember when they were on Dr. Phil, and I remember seeing that map behind them of the whole United States that had, like, I think, red dots on it showing all the unsolved murders or homicides throughout the United States. And so I think. I think back to that map and think, you know, again, we can at least remove that red dot on the state of Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

And then what do Libby and Abbey themselves and their memories mean to you?

[Tobe Lesenby]

Again, the strength is one word that comes. Just how strong they were. And, you know, obviously none of us were there when this all happened. But and having the mindset to turn on her phone or video and collect, you know, and I, you know, I commented here a while back that if we didn't have that, I don't know, I, I wonder whether or not we'd still be investigating it to this day. So just utmost respect and just knowing what they went through and just being, being strong, particularly for one another.

[Anya Cain]

Is there anything else that we didn't ask you about that you think it's important for people to know or understand?

[Tobe Lesenby]

You know, just, I would encourage people, you know, whether a situation like this arises in their community, whatever, just be objective, be open minded, don't immediately dismiss, don't believe everything that you may hear. Because, and I, you know, I've always said, again, not sound cliche but, you know, if you want to know the truth, go to the horse. You know, what's, what's coming from the horse's mouth is, you know, more than likely is going to be the spot on truth. So listen to the source or at least reach out to that individual and say, hey, I've heard this. What can you tell me? Be honest and, you know, just be open with people.

[Anya Cain]

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us.

[Tobe Lesenby]

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We really want to thank Chief Deputy Lesenby for taking the time to speak with us. We truly appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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Little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince. Com msheet that's Q U I N C E Com, msh E E T.